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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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JLP: "Normal sized." You mean for a guy? So, ratings are anchored in the notion of the "average human" now? Even for ultra-size-dependent routes?
Sounds at least sexist to me, if not flat-out insane, when it comes to routes like OWs.
I'm not defending this or that rating for KA! That route forever was and forever will be "I can't do it" rated for me! I'm questioning the very principle of the "rating scheme" that supposedly justifies an overarching critique of Pam's judgment.
If Pam says a route is "really hard," then I'll take that as gospel. If you want to then nit-pick a particular rating, more power to you. But don't imagine that you are grounding your critique in some objective reality and thereby feel justified to rip Pam's "judgment."
And where this nit-picking goes really off the rails is when KA is not considered "dangerous." Wow, just wow. So, how about this little challenge: Put in WRITING and sign your name to the document in which you state that: "The Mental Block is not dangerous, and it is very unlikely that anybody will ever be killed by it. I will put my money where my mouth is and pay $10,000 to the family of anybody who is killed by it."
Ridiculous.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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John, the rumor was that you wrapped your hands in welder's gloves and tape for the FFA of Paisano Overhang.
Personally, I think that's just fine. But, if true, it makes the point that for OW's, opinions vary because physical geometry makes a huge difference in "necessary" and in perceived difficulty.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Urban rumor. Did another ascent without tape and even have the scars now. No one accused me of being smart. "Taping your hands to fit the crack" is not a strategy that I've ever herd working since it's the expansion of a jam that does the business.
I never talked a load of sh#t about that FFA but I should have just to have stirred the pot. More fun that way. Look at us!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Good points. Thanks, John.
Edit: One thing I neglected to say, though, is that if the crack had been, say, just one-inch wider than your most expanded fist-jam, but just too narrow for a hand/fist combo to fit, then "the route" (for you) is going to feel much harder than for somebody who can employ a straightforward fist-jam. You'll have to employ a less-secure and more exotic technique to negotiate the rig.
That was the basis of the rumor about Paisano: It was supposedly OW fist and too small for fist/hand. The many times I climbed at Suicide, I was never motivated to go up and see for myself. LOL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I did read the whole thing. And what caught my BS-detector every time was the repeated insistence of this sort of thing: "We’re not even being bold here. We’re just being sensible."
So, there are "standard detached blocks," apparently, that a "sensible" climber should just place cams behind "without worry." LOL!
Listen, I know a thing or two about loose rock and detached blocks. There are few on this forum who can assert that HALF of their routes on a formation have fallen off in their own lifetime. The Riverside Quarry is a mass of blasted, loose crap, and it is to this day. But I became VERY aware of what could be made to work (at repeated risk of my life) on that crap. And it's why on plenty of other "fearsome" expanding pitches, I felt "meh" because by comparison to a "standard detached block" at the Quarry, I felt very solid.
But think about what that's saying! "Standard detached block." So, "nobody should consider it particularly dangerous." ROFL! Tell that to somebody climbing Stay of Execution when the duplex-sized roof-traverse falls out. It was a BIG "standard detached" block at the Quarry, and it never gave any bad signs the many times I nailed it. So, it's good. Until it isn't. And it's in two big pieces at the base as I write this now.
There is an INSANE level of hubris to refer to a "standard detached block" as something deserving a "judgment downgrade"! When talking about routes at the Quarry, I would ALWAYS warn people things like, "The traverse is easy nailing IF the block stays. But who can say about something like that. I consider that traverse to be A1 XXX, which is an absurd rating. But, then, the whole rating game is absurd. In point of fact, everything out here can fall off at a moment's notice, and there's a big talus slope to prove it."
"Standard detached block," my AZZ! The FA has every right to bolt beside a "standard detached block," and the "heros" who chopped the bolts may well end up responsible for the death of whoever gets gooshed by the Mental Block. When you agonize over and then place a bolt next to a block, you are making a DECISION in favor of upping the odds of living. What the "standard detached block" argument says is: NOBODY should do that route who is not prepared to roll the dice on dying through no fault of his/her own. But it's the FA prerogative to make such a decision, and its not "bad judgment" to say, "The Mental Block seems pretty fearsome to me, and I ultimately came to conclude that nobody should have to risk placing protection behind it."
I did read both articles, and I found a huge pile of unjustified hubris in both. All of it, of course, wrapped in the "standard disclaimers" about NOT being hubris.
So, what's the point here? The best case that the "Huge Downgrade" camp can make is: "We have 'objective' evidence that the FA rating was WAY off, and the FA assessment of 'danger' was WAY off, so Pam's FA judgments in the future cannot be trusted." That is what this thread is seeking to establish. Nothing more lofty than that.
And my response is: Fail!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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MB1: A good friend bitd used to say, "There are only three climbing ratings: 'Hard,' 'really hard,' and 'I can't do it.' There are no 'easy' climbs, because 'easy' wouldn't be 'climbing.'"
Resonates. Jim Holloway's system. Three grades are all you need on boulders. I have no idea about Wides.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ No, no, John. You are SO far behind the times! Now we need the whole V-system, with OBJECTIVE and very fine-grained distinctions to enable us to rank people into neat boxes on higher and lower shelves, such as: "She onsights V7, while he does V9 but has never onsighted one." And, "She rated a certain problem V8, but it's been repeated twice, and the consensus is only V7, so clearly she hypes her routes."
Pfffttt. Get with the program!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Grug i know all that. I was pretty much agreeing with, mostly. And remember, I Have done froecver war and I Did say it’s easier than .13 if you’re our sizes and dont invert!
You still have 20’+’ to go on Lucille ( I have the photos, from across the way, not the man spearing shots from straight below that look like you’re “ there” ) so don’t be counting ( and rating) That chicken before you hatch it!😎.
And cottonsides did You read what I, wrote? You just couldn’t resist the straw man? All I said was thatn I didn’t lie back, and then that as a geologist and having a history with that wall and the things that have come off it in th last 8 years; my assessment is that The mental block is suspect, and I sure would NOT put pro behind it!
That’s it! Quit putting words, or your own Interpretations of what you think I must have meant, in my mouth! Peace!
As for the rest of what you said, it’s moot until you get up there yourself. “Bolted cracks” you say. That’s, two pro bolts in 500’ of climbing. As for t chnique, Get your ass up there and see what manner you prefer. We’re roughly the same dimensions.u”. Until then do not presume to be capable of an opinion of what you do not know.😎 jeez!
Edit; so the Wholw Thing is moot, as, according to their account in grippedmag, the Didnt Even Attempt the Crux and instead climbed that alternate handcrack we were talking about above!
From gripped mag;
“The Wide Boyz duo made the second ascent of The Kill Artist, a four-pitch route first climbed by Scott Massey, Evan Wisheropp and Pamela Pack in 2017. The second pitch was graded 5.13 and a bolt was added. Randall and Whittaker found the bolt had been chopped, but it didn’t matter much as they found an easier variation by stemming to a hand crack. They graded the 5.13 pitch at 5.11-.”
The rated a variation to the 5.13 pitch, 5.11-!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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You know, I just did type into Google, "Vedauwoo, Forever War". I immediately see the title, "The Hardest Offwidth Crack at Vedauwoo". Suddenly I remember my initial reaction to the presumptuousness of this title. You can also see her video of doing it easy enough on the internet. I'm going on record as saying that this route is likely to be easier than many of Scarpelli's 5.11's, at least for me. I just had one attempt a couple of years ago, following somebody (a very good climber) who pretty much aided it. Turns out, I got 80% through the overhanging part using a left-side-in armbar rather than an invert. I pretty much just ran out of gas. After I fell, I was lowered and then successfully followed it from bottom to top as a lieback => undercling => offwidth. I would rate this way of doing it as 5.11+ at most as a follow -- mostly because I did it.
I'm really not crowing, really. It's BECAUSE I know that I'm not even close to being a 5.12 climber that this strikes me as something that should be brought up. Calling Forever War 5.13 and the hardest offwidth at Vedauwoo kind of denigrates offwidth climbing at Vedauwoo in a way. What ever happened to 5.12 in offwidth climbing? Seems like it was mostly bypassed.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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So, "Hardest offwidth in Vedauwoo." Ohhh, Pam is hyping again.
I know that the principle of charity is just out the window here, but let's give it a try.
"Probably the hardest offwidth at Vedauwoo," which is Pam's actual statement, is not the statement that "Edelweiss Ropes U.S.A. and Liberty Mountain" make in hyping the video. That word, "probably" is very different from the categorical claim made by "Edelweiss Ropes U.S.A. and Liberty Mountain," which wants to sell product without regard to objective truth.
Are you aware that Pam almost destroyed her kidneys (requiring surgery) from a fall on the route? Hard to see how you can compare what you were thinking from basically top-roping the route with what Pam was thinking. Hard to see how you can compare techniques you used with what you'd commit to using on lead. Hard to see how you can compare techniques that are good for you with what Pam might have to use. This is back to the whole "normal person" absurdity.
The question here is: Is Pam systematically hyping? Or is Pam being quoted as saying things that SHE actually isn't saying, and what she actually says is based upon her absolutely legitimate perceptions ON LEAD?
In every video I've seen of the route (now two routes) in question, it's her SPONSORS hyping the routes, interviewing people (not Pam) as saying hyperbolic things, and making assertions to drive views and therefore advertising, which is the whole point of sponsorship?
If you carefully and charitably listen to what PAM actually says, it's dialed WAY back from the hyperbolic and categorical statements made by her SPONSORS.
I can tell you first-hand that you have ZERO control over what even a publisher says to sell books! SO much hyperbolic crap went onto the back cover and marketing materials of Wings of Steel that I contacted the publisher just before the first publication run, saying, "Please, please don't print that stuff! It is literally not true." You would think that a RELIGIOUS publisher would care about truth, but not so. Publishers publish books to make money, which thrusts them into the whole marketing hype mindset.
It's disgusting to me when the climbing community devours its own over the finest points of "style" and "ratings," as if there are objective standards of comparison! There ARE climbers who have become widely known for lying about their routes. Pam is not one of those. So, how about a bit of charity?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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how about don't give a grade to a climb you have not led...…
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Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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It is so interesting the way so many discussions of amazingly challenging achievements are so hand-wringingly worked over here.
Climb got down-graded. Whatever. I'm sure it is plenty hard.
Why does everyone want to splatter stuff on the net about how their world view is so much more solid and less chossy than yours?
btw, I could never toprope that thing, never.
Dave "former weekender"
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WBraun
climber
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Sounds like a bunch of bald guys arguing over a comb.
LOL ...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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how about don't give a grade to a climb you have not led...… Estimating a RP grade from past experience on established routes with consensus is a LOT more solid than assigning one at a level you’ve never done before anywhere else, ever.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I had a guy hanging on a TR falling all over the place tell me that the 10+ he was on was only 10a. Whatever dude. you can't even climb it and your down gradeing it. STFU. one of the guys downgradeing pams climb said his leader is super strong and basicly aided it then he ran out of gas and fell. but really its easy. Top ropeing a crack it's often easy to climb outside the crack because you don't have to place gear. the monster layback may be easy on TR but a solo on lead if you can't place from there. Whatever it is if you feel the need to downgrade it you damn well better have led it clean first. almost does not count....
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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one of the guys downgradeing pams climb said his leader is super strong and basicly aided it then he ran out of gas and fell I know,- the name of this climber is JLP
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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According to the Gripped article, they didn’t even try the crux pitch, but did indeed opt for the hand crack variation to the left. Is That true, did they downrate a move they didn’t even try?
“The Wide Boyz duo made the second ascent of The Kill Artist, a four-pitch route first climbed by Scott Massey, Evan Wisheropp and Pamela Pack in 2017. The second pitch was graded 5.13 and a bolt was added. Randall and Whittaker found the bolt had been chopped, but it didn’t matter much as they found an easier variation by stemming to a hand crack. They graded the 5.13 pitch at 5.11-.”
So according to this, they didn’t even attempt the part that all the fuss is about.
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WBraun
climber
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they found an easier variation by stemming to a hand crack
LOL, that's how you cheat and then downgrade.
I watched this guy once leading the Cringe years ago grabbing every piece he placed and hang on it then proceeded on.
I asked him "how was the cringe today?"
He said; "it wasn't too hard and it's overrated".
LOL ..... yeah ... OK ....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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This is too funny!
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