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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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It never ceases to amaze me how much "backseat climbing" takes place regarding the smallest details. "Oh, it wasn't 5.13. It was only 5.11. Bad beta. Crux done too close to an unnecessary bolt." On and on, as if ANY of the way-awesome commentators could have envisioned the route and devoted the time and risk to put it all together.
SAs (and later ascents) are VERY different ascents from the FA. The route is cleaned. The Mental Block stayed for at least one person rather than coming out at a touch. At least one way of working it out was revealed. And the litany goes on.
Hey, at this point, every PLACEMENT on Free Rider has been rendered unnecessary, so don't even bother going up on that rig if you feel the "need" for any pro. Oh, oops. Perhaps "unnecessary" is not some objective fact.
Pamela did something visionary there, and she paid the price to prove that it could be done at all. Nit-picking the sh|t out of particular bolts or the rating of one approach to making a move totally misses the point of the entire route.
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Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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I have a question: How come the blond woman is not wearing a helmet? She claims to be worried about falling...helmet is in the way? Vanity? Lunacy?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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You can’t wear a helmet in OW - which is okay because you’re mostly on TR and you probably won’t fall far.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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How many other Pams are there in the climbing world - today - frankly way more talented and fit than she'll ever be - but nobody hears about them because they've taken a place in the real game - not some fake smoke and mirrors bullshit side show - so nobody has heard about them because they're just not at the top of it?
Yeah - that's pretty much going to get called out.
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Embarking on a personal crusade against a person says more about you than Pam. Fobbing it off as a clear-sighted dude offering objective information or "what is actually true" goes little distance is masking a mean spirit. One can turn that on anyone, anywhere and burn a person to ashes.
There's always other reasons, never stated, why a person goes off like this on another, and they're never "objective." I have the same impulses, but can usually "curb the dog," though not always. I'm never proud of myself when I go dark. Sorter ugly to see the bite marks, and down right pathological when the "reasons" for the attack are attributed to someone else.
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Ferretlegger
Trad climber
san Jose, CA
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Pam is a frequent visitor at my house in Moab. I have seen her after spending DAYS working on a FA of a desperate offwidth- beat-up, dirty, covered in gobies, physically thrashed, but still game to figure a way to get up it. It is easy, as some have said, to talk smack about something you have never experienced and probably couldn't climb. Before you start dissing someone or a climb you have never seen, perhaps you should get on the sharp end and try some of her routes. Perhaps, confronted by a gigantic killer flake held on by bat guano and your fervent prayers, you might reconsider criticism of her decision to put a bolt in instead of risking pulling the flake off and dying.
Her courage, tenacity, and vision are remarkable. My impression, from what they have written, is that the Wide Boys have great respect for Pam and her routes. Since they are two of only an handful of people in the world capable of doing her hardest routes, perhaps their opinion should inform your own.
Michael
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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There's always other reasons, never stated, why a person goes off like this on another, and they're never "objective." You mean like the many often public shots PP has taken over the years at other women moving in on her modeling gig?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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JLP, you're doing it again, LOL. Attributing the "reasons" to go unhinged to the "guilty party." Wus up with that? What might happen if we locked you two in room? Better yet, act like you are already there and let fly the rant you want us all to hear, leaving off the reasons that justify it in your own mind. Just let it rip, unedited. Might do us all some good.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Live by the sword, die by the sword - is all I'm seeing here. Simple stuff.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Well, it's still 5.impossible for me.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I hear that, amigo, but you picked up the sword and and never honestly swung the thing. What's really and truly bugging you? I'm sure I've done much of what you are accusing Pam of doing - probably worse in my own way - but I'am unsure of the particulars. Or why they arouse such a passionate reaction from others. Where is the crime here, and the need to break out the sword for proper punishment.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Everyone who has pushed themselves into - let's just say the top quarter or so as a reference to an arbitrary level of commitment and humility in discovering true difficulty - these people in general don't put up with BS from beneath claiming an even higher position. It's human nature.
It's super mega visible to those who worked hard to get into that top quarter because they know a LOT about what it really took to get there.
It's every sport and every career profession.
This is the dynamic I'm seeing here overall.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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If you look at the NBA, say, and the superstars there (or in other professional sport), the modern crusher is at least half the time a diva of sorts who causes all kind of problems and needless drama and in the case of some, have tanked entire franchises through their LACK of humility, through their shameless roostering and so forth.
Funny thing is, while the rooster can be tricky to ball with, so to speak, they certainly make the game interesting. Look at us going on about her.
Hasn't Pam earned the right to do some roostering?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The NBA is real-sauce and puts guys on the same playing field as everyone else, presently and in the entire history of the sport. There are a LOT of guys who want to be in the NBA and try very hard to make it.
Pam isn't. All she does is OW, and even at that hasn't entered a performance on the 12-13 consensus test pieces of this style - the kinds of routes that really separate out the players - yet all her FA's are 13 X or some such - the hardest in the world! Yeah okay. This kind of behaviour most definitely is going to draw some attention.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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It’s like repeating Intifada, and then writing a lengthy report that what’s you found was substantially different from what was reported.
It's nothing like that at all.
The primary focus here is essentially one move and one bolt. Furthermore, Pam didn't outright lie about what she was doing, sabotage her route, and give it a stratospheric rating that was unprecedented in climbing history.
Moreover, on KA (as on all cracks) very small differences in physical geometry can make a vast difference on perceived difficulty! OWs in particular, well, if YOU can get a firm knee-lock, while another person's knee can't fit in at all, or another person's knee is small and just rattles around, YOU are going to perceive that section as much easier than the other two people.
Invert or lie-back? Well, do it like Pam did, and then let's talk fine-grained ratings. Oh, you don't HAVE to do the invert; there's an easier way? Maybe. Do you realize how SHORT Pam is? Perhaps she literally couldn't get into the position needed to start the lie-back. What's the point in nit-picking over such ticky-tacky details?
There is zero comparison between that sort of nit-picky "analysis" and stating that an entire ROUTE was nothing like advertised. If you want to try make some sort of valid comparison, then you'd have to say that KA was a mass of chiseled holds that Pam later took a belt-sander to smooth off, WHILE belt-sanding off natural holds that she had used. Etc., etc.
Zero comparison. Get off Pam's back. Your nit-picking publicly self-denigrates you rather than succeeding in critiquing her or KA.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ You are completely correct that this is an armchair-climber's thread. But I still take issue with two aspects of the critique that's taking place here.
First, the repeated assertions of "unnecessary," as though that word has a SHRED of objective meaning in this context. You might say, "The invert is unnecessary for a man with a certain height/weight ratio, a certain minimum reach, and a certain 'finger-wrap radius.'" But that's not what people are saying. Put Tom into Pam's body, and let's see what he (and people on this thread) would have to say about "the rating" and what's "unnecessary."
Second, the supposed "danger" or lack thereof. The FA has EVERY reason to be "mental" about something like the "Mental Block!" Holy insta-goosh, Batman! You're below that mess for the first time, and you know NOTHING! Tell me ALL about "unnecessary" then. ROFL
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jay, remember I was the one who started a thread a couple of years ago about the best offwidth climber ever, and I suggested Pamela. Upthread, I wasn't so much dissing Pamela as questioning the 5.13 ratings for some of these routes. I'm sorry, but I don't have to actually complete a route to know when it is likely to be 5.11+ or 5.12- rather than 5.13c/d. I guarantee you that Forever War will not be considered 5.13 anything after a few more people get on it. I remember Pamela talking about the upper part as working man's 5.12 or something. Seemed like 5.10+ to me. I'm hoping to give it another try (the OW way rather than the lieback way) this year.
The other thing about routes like Forever War and even Lucille is that Pamela inverts when others might choose or be able to armbar. It's hard to believe that the rating of one way would likely match the rating of the other. Having said this, I've seen her in action and can definitively state that Pamela is hands down a better offwidth climber than I ever was.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Nicely put, imo.
A good friend wbitd used to say, "There are only three climbing ratings: 'Hard,' 'really hard,' and 'I can't do it.' There are no 'easy' climbs, because 'easy' wouldn't be 'climbing.'"
Opinions vary, but I'm much closer to his end of the ratings spectrum than what has become mainstream today.
Pam is a wonder to watch, and she is a flat-out fabulous person who just revels in the sheer joy of climbing. It's her purity of spirit and motivation that inspires me. I find it rare, particularly among sponsored climbers. And it really pains me to see her get ripped-on by people who should know enough to be more charitable!
There are some climbers who deserve a good ripping! Pam isn't one of them.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Crack climbing is more dependent on proper technique than face climbing and ow crack climbing is the most technique dependent of all.
Consider that many of the ow techniques use in ow’s were only recently developed. I have, more than once, struggled mightly on an ow climb only to come back later with a different approach and find it considerably easier.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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A correctly graded route assumes perfect technique, the easiest path and the average climber's proportions. This is hard climbing 101.
If your so-called advanced technique (sic) makes a so-called 13 route feel like the same strength and effort you currently are putting forth on other 11s, then the route is probably an 11.
If someone can only perform some weird trick to get up the route and that trick is harder, then too bad so sad, work on your weakness and/or accept that some routes just have stopper moves for the oddballs among us.
As for laybacking - who cares. It's looked down upon only because it's generally less efficient than jamming. If you can layback Coyne, go try Hydraulic Pump. In cases where laybacking happens to be the more efficient technique, then IMO you are the better climber to use it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sounds like a bunch of bald guys arguing over a comb.
My issue is that someone accused Pam of not having the cred to sound off. Ain't she the one doing all the FAs?
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