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Levy
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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It's funny but when I saw photos & videos of Pamela's mega rig and I kept thinking that it didn't look all that hard. Now that the boyz have had at it I see that my impressions were likely correct. I look forward to news of further repeats and hopefully the belay anchor bolts get replaced.
In addition, those guys stories are very entertaining!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Good climbing content.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I haven’t been on the whole route, but I failed to onsight the mental block pitch. But again, I didn’t lie back it....
Maybe their approach is more expedient for getting past it in the hot sun, I’ll never know, but, it would be like laybacking the first part of Coyne crack ( which is generally looked down upon stylistically) It would have been interesting to see what they thought had they jammed it in the manner of the FFA
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Onsighting a five year epic with runouts and loose blocks where the bolts have been chopped, is that epic?
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WBraun
climber
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Sometimes you just plain pull it off in layback.
Example on FA of Freestone Dale fist jammed the OW up there.
We came and found laybacking for 40foot run out made life sweet and easier.
On Sky Dale took 30 footer trying to OW the first 20 feet or so.
Kauk laybacked it and got the FA.
Not everything is always what it seems at first ......
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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An interesting pair of routes with a lot of history. As an on and off member of the team since we first got on them in 2011(?) I have some knowledge of the rock, shenanigans and history.
This is not Indian creek quality rock. Literally tons of material have peeled of spontaneously or been cleaned. The first pitch of KA, the 5.12, calf-lock pitch, did not even appear until a large flake sporting a bolt ladder was found on the ground having calved off revealing a silt filled slot. I’ll find some photos of cleaning that out, an epic that ended in a trip to the infectious disease center in Denver and treatment for valley fever.
Another pitch had such razor sharp calcite encrustations that a series of lead rope were deeply splayed. A bolt was placed in there to keep the rope from running on those edges. Also hats off to Randy Leavitt for supplying Pam with a special rope for that pitch!
Given that history and my background in geology, I’m not going to be surprised, when I find the mental block on the ground, or all the way down the five hundred foot hillside to the road, someday.. It’s way bigger than the Texas trundle I did on Texas tower in the 90’s. A driveway sized but much thinner flake that made a deafening sound in that narrow canyon.
Or being a rock, maybe it will stay a while longer, no way to tell. I know I’d never place cams behind it!
Then there was last summers sneak attack by two inexperienced, wannabe name climbers who slunk out there in August. ( on a south facing wall, in the desert) and chopped the bolts on KA using aid and anchors from the adjacent Route dark passenger to fuel their effort. One of them claimed it was to get Pam’s attention, but not to be disrespectful, oh no. But somehow in spite of that he didn’t speak up until he learned we were going to go back up there to finish the route on a temperate weekend in November. May his name be forgotten!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Ha ha, so true Werner! I jammed Freeestone, btw, on my onsight. I like to think I wouldn’t have been comfortable with it had I laybacked, but I was young and hungry then, too!
I did end up liebacking Sky though😎
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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The number of people who try hard offwidth routes is an order of magnitude or more smaller than those who try other types of hard climbing. Forever War at Vedauwoo is another supposedly 5.13 climb that is probably closer to 5.11+ or 12-.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Pam sure has gotten some harsh treatment over the years. Those routes look grisly. True 5.11 off size is the business.
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Smassey
Trad climber
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Curious as to how many of ya’ll sh#t talkers have repeated any of her routes or actually seen her climb? Likely none. So get over your jealousy or “what you’ve heard” from blah blah blah wanna-be/never-has-been ex-partner(s). Talk-action=0.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Pack is passionate about what she does and can get testy about it. ... text messages from Pamela Pack, a professional off-width climber.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I've noticed over the years that whenever someone is posited as "elite," or knows or understands something or has done something the rest of us have not, or maybe we too have done it but don't get recognized, a percentage of us feel "less than" and start balking, often using the excuse of providing "objective information" (re: downrating, telling the "real story" etc) to address what is a subjective challenge (she's better, smarter, more accomplished, gets more press, is more popular, etc). Jealousy turns to resentments and the rest of us have to hear a bunch of silly rants. Then again, some people just get under everyone's skin, so who knows.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Comeuppance begets schadenfreude?
Entertaining from my armchair. Especially the nuances.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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from Pete's account:
"Overall, I thought both routes were brilliant. And despite the hype on Kill Artist about the loose blocks and runout nature of the climb, I actually thought it was safe to do with the bolts gone and completely on natural protection. It does seem a shame the belay bolts had been chopped though, as it’s quite inconvenient to have to now carry up 2 extra #6's to build a belay. However, you know the tactics now folks; Seconders, offload as much gear as possible to the leader. And leader, never accept it, you know the real truth of what your seconder is trying to do :)
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Thanks for putting the time in to cleaning and establishing both routes Pamela and partners they are classics which people can definitely go and enjoy. I look forward to repeating the next ones you establish."
I was in Moab at IC when Pam was working this route and sent it [note: it's a Moab area climb, not IC]. The freaky nature of the climb is fully captured by the naming of the "Mental Block." First ascents are journeys into the unknown, and the genuine experience of the first ascent are captured in the Kill Artist video. Once the route is up, cleaned, equipped, mapped out, known, it is possible for the subsequent ascents assess the style, difficulty, objective dangers, and all that without any of the uncertainty. Tom and Pete are definitely a great team to take up the challenge of the second ascent, connoisseurs of the desert off-width circuit.
The nature of the first ascent experience belongs to the first ascent team only. Those who do first ascents understand. You get to peek in on the process with that video, but only part of it... seeing Pam wiped out after days of hard work and talking about the day's trials and tribulation over dinner are memories left only to those that were there.
You can now go and do Kill Artist and report back you own impressions of an established route.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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a percentage of us feel "less than" and start balking I don't see it this way at all.
When something legit happens, it's really just a very small % of the unknowing that cast doubt.
How many other Pams are there in the climbing world - today - frankly way more talented and fit than she'll ever be - but nobody hears about them because they've taken a place in the real game - not some fake smoke and mirrors bullshit side show - so nobody has heard about them because they're just not at the top of it?
Yeah - that's pretty much going to get called out.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Good on Pam. Like Lynnie years before, she's leading the way.
"It goes, boys"!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Actually D2R2, that’s exactly what I said to Tom Herbert when he “did it”!
And Grug tough words, for not having done it yourself😎... though to be fair, when I did it, I thought the non invert way was fairly solid 5.12
Nice fantasy caught, you have a vivid imagination, and clearly weren’t present. Or maybe you mean You toproped it?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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There are a few out there who seem to delight in the 2nd ascent just so they can downgrade it....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Clipping a bolt is a top rope now? Like putting a cam over your head?
Are you drawing a distinction between those. How does that, work?
You’ve seen a video, I’ve led the pitch. It ain’t a toprope!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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It never ceases to amaze me how much "backseat climbing" takes place regarding the smallest details. "Oh, it wasn't 5.13. It was only 5.11. Bad beta. Crux done too close to an unnecessary bolt." On and on, as if ANY of the way-awesome commentators could have envisioned the route and devoted the time and risk to put it all together.
SAs (and later ascents) are VERY different ascents from the FA. The route is cleaned. The Mental Block stayed for at least one person rather than coming out at a touch. At least one way of working it out was revealed. And the litany goes on.
Hey, at this point, every PLACEMENT on Free Rider has been rendered unnecessary, so don't even bother going up on that rig if you feel the "need" for any pro. Oh, oops. Perhaps "unnecessary" is not some objective fact.
Pamela did something visionary there, and she paid the price to prove that it could be done at all. Nit-picking the sh|t out of particular bolts or the rating of one approach to making a move totally misses the point of the entire route.
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Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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I have a question: How come the blond woman is not wearing a helmet? She claims to be worried about falling...helmet is in the way? Vanity? Lunacy?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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You can’t wear a helmet in OW - which is okay because you’re mostly on TR and you probably won’t fall far.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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How many other Pams are there in the climbing world - today - frankly way more talented and fit than she'll ever be - but nobody hears about them because they've taken a place in the real game - not some fake smoke and mirrors bullshit side show - so nobody has heard about them because they're just not at the top of it?
Yeah - that's pretty much going to get called out.
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Embarking on a personal crusade against a person says more about you than Pam. Fobbing it off as a clear-sighted dude offering objective information or "what is actually true" goes little distance is masking a mean spirit. One can turn that on anyone, anywhere and burn a person to ashes.
There's always other reasons, never stated, why a person goes off like this on another, and they're never "objective." I have the same impulses, but can usually "curb the dog," though not always. I'm never proud of myself when I go dark. Sorter ugly to see the bite marks, and down right pathological when the "reasons" for the attack are attributed to someone else.
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Ferretlegger
Trad climber
san Jose, CA
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Pam is a frequent visitor at my house in Moab. I have seen her after spending DAYS working on a FA of a desperate offwidth- beat-up, dirty, covered in gobies, physically thrashed, but still game to figure a way to get up it. It is easy, as some have said, to talk smack about something you have never experienced and probably couldn't climb. Before you start dissing someone or a climb you have never seen, perhaps you should get on the sharp end and try some of her routes. Perhaps, confronted by a gigantic killer flake held on by bat guano and your fervent prayers, you might reconsider criticism of her decision to put a bolt in instead of risking pulling the flake off and dying.
Her courage, tenacity, and vision are remarkable. My impression, from what they have written, is that the Wide Boys have great respect for Pam and her routes. Since they are two of only an handful of people in the world capable of doing her hardest routes, perhaps their opinion should inform your own.
Michael
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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There's always other reasons, never stated, why a person goes off like this on another, and they're never "objective." You mean like the many often public shots PP has taken over the years at other women moving in on her modeling gig?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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JLP, you're doing it again, LOL. Attributing the "reasons" to go unhinged to the "guilty party." Wus up with that? What might happen if we locked you two in room? Better yet, act like you are already there and let fly the rant you want us all to hear, leaving off the reasons that justify it in your own mind. Just let it rip, unedited. Might do us all some good.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Live by the sword, die by the sword - is all I'm seeing here. Simple stuff.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Well, it's still 5.impossible for me.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I hear that, amigo, but you picked up the sword and and never honestly swung the thing. What's really and truly bugging you? I'm sure I've done much of what you are accusing Pam of doing - probably worse in my own way - but I'am unsure of the particulars. Or why they arouse such a passionate reaction from others. Where is the crime here, and the need to break out the sword for proper punishment.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Everyone who has pushed themselves into - let's just say the top quarter or so as a reference to an arbitrary level of commitment and humility in discovering true difficulty - these people in general don't put up with BS from beneath claiming an even higher position. It's human nature.
It's super mega visible to those who worked hard to get into that top quarter because they know a LOT about what it really took to get there.
It's every sport and every career profession.
This is the dynamic I'm seeing here overall.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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If you look at the NBA, say, and the superstars there (or in other professional sport), the modern crusher is at least half the time a diva of sorts who causes all kind of problems and needless drama and in the case of some, have tanked entire franchises through their LACK of humility, through their shameless roostering and so forth.
Funny thing is, while the rooster can be tricky to ball with, so to speak, they certainly make the game interesting. Look at us going on about her.
Hasn't Pam earned the right to do some roostering?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The NBA is real-sauce and puts guys on the same playing field as everyone else, presently and in the entire history of the sport. There are a LOT of guys who want to be in the NBA and try very hard to make it.
Pam isn't. All she does is OW, and even at that hasn't entered a performance on the 12-13 consensus test pieces of this style - the kinds of routes that really separate out the players - yet all her FA's are 13 X or some such - the hardest in the world! Yeah okay. This kind of behaviour most definitely is going to draw some attention.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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It’s like repeating Intifada, and then writing a lengthy report that what’s you found was substantially different from what was reported.
It's nothing like that at all.
The primary focus here is essentially one move and one bolt. Furthermore, Pam didn't outright lie about what she was doing, sabotage her route, and give it a stratospheric rating that was unprecedented in climbing history.
Moreover, on KA (as on all cracks) very small differences in physical geometry can make a vast difference on perceived difficulty! OWs in particular, well, if YOU can get a firm knee-lock, while another person's knee can't fit in at all, or another person's knee is small and just rattles around, YOU are going to perceive that section as much easier than the other two people.
Invert or lie-back? Well, do it like Pam did, and then let's talk fine-grained ratings. Oh, you don't HAVE to do the invert; there's an easier way? Maybe. Do you realize how SHORT Pam is? Perhaps she literally couldn't get into the position needed to start the lie-back. What's the point in nit-picking over such ticky-tacky details?
There is zero comparison between that sort of nit-picky "analysis" and stating that an entire ROUTE was nothing like advertised. If you want to try make some sort of valid comparison, then you'd have to say that KA was a mass of chiseled holds that Pam later took a belt-sander to smooth off, WHILE belt-sanding off natural holds that she had used. Etc., etc.
Zero comparison. Get off Pam's back. Your nit-picking publicly self-denigrates you rather than succeeding in critiquing her or KA.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ You are completely correct that this is an armchair-climber's thread. But I still take issue with two aspects of the critique that's taking place here.
First, the repeated assertions of "unnecessary," as though that word has a SHRED of objective meaning in this context. You might say, "The invert is unnecessary for a man with a certain height/weight ratio, a certain minimum reach, and a certain 'finger-wrap radius.'" But that's not what people are saying. Put Tom into Pam's body, and let's see what he (and people on this thread) would have to say about "the rating" and what's "unnecessary."
Second, the supposed "danger" or lack thereof. The FA has EVERY reason to be "mental" about something like the "Mental Block!" Holy insta-goosh, Batman! You're below that mess for the first time, and you know NOTHING! Tell me ALL about "unnecessary" then. ROFL
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jay, remember I was the one who started a thread a couple of years ago about the best offwidth climber ever, and I suggested Pamela. Upthread, I wasn't so much dissing Pamela as questioning the 5.13 ratings for some of these routes. I'm sorry, but I don't have to actually complete a route to know when it is likely to be 5.11+ or 5.12- rather than 5.13c/d. I guarantee you that Forever War will not be considered 5.13 anything after a few more people get on it. I remember Pamela talking about the upper part as working man's 5.12 or something. Seemed like 5.10+ to me. I'm hoping to give it another try (the OW way rather than the lieback way) this year.
The other thing about routes like Forever War and even Lucille is that Pamela inverts when others might choose or be able to armbar. It's hard to believe that the rating of one way would likely match the rating of the other. Having said this, I've seen her in action and can definitively state that Pamela is hands down a better offwidth climber than I ever was.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Nicely put, imo.
A good friend wbitd used to say, "There are only three climbing ratings: 'Hard,' 'really hard,' and 'I can't do it.' There are no 'easy' climbs, because 'easy' wouldn't be 'climbing.'"
Opinions vary, but I'm much closer to his end of the ratings spectrum than what has become mainstream today.
Pam is a wonder to watch, and she is a flat-out fabulous person who just revels in the sheer joy of climbing. It's her purity of spirit and motivation that inspires me. I find it rare, particularly among sponsored climbers. And it really pains me to see her get ripped-on by people who should know enough to be more charitable!
There are some climbers who deserve a good ripping! Pam isn't one of them.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Crack climbing is more dependent on proper technique than face climbing and ow crack climbing is the most technique dependent of all.
Consider that many of the ow techniques use in ow’s were only recently developed. I have, more than once, struggled mightly on an ow climb only to come back later with a different approach and find it considerably easier.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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A correctly graded route assumes perfect technique, the easiest path and the average climber's proportions. This is hard climbing 101.
If your so-called advanced technique (sic) makes a so-called 13 route feel like the same strength and effort you currently are putting forth on other 11s, then the route is probably an 11.
If someone can only perform some weird trick to get up the route and that trick is harder, then too bad so sad, work on your weakness and/or accept that some routes just have stopper moves for the oddballs among us.
As for laybacking - who cares. It's looked down upon only because it's generally less efficient than jamming. If you can layback Coyne, go try Hydraulic Pump. In cases where laybacking happens to be the more efficient technique, then IMO you are the better climber to use it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sounds like a bunch of bald guys arguing over a comb.
My issue is that someone accused Pam of not having the cred to sound off. Ain't she the one doing all the FAs?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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JLP: "Normal sized." You mean for a guy? So, ratings are anchored in the notion of the "average human" now? Even for ultra-size-dependent routes?
Sounds at least sexist to me, if not flat-out insane, when it comes to routes like OWs.
I'm not defending this or that rating for KA! That route forever was and forever will be "I can't do it" rated for me! I'm questioning the very principle of the "rating scheme" that supposedly justifies an overarching critique of Pam's judgment.
If Pam says a route is "really hard," then I'll take that as gospel. If you want to then nit-pick a particular rating, more power to you. But don't imagine that you are grounding your critique in some objective reality and thereby feel justified to rip Pam's "judgment."
And where this nit-picking goes really off the rails is when KA is not considered "dangerous." Wow, just wow. So, how about this little challenge: Put in WRITING and sign your name to the document in which you state that: "The Mental Block is not dangerous, and it is very unlikely that anybody will ever be killed by it. I will put my money where my mouth is and pay $10,000 to the family of anybody who is killed by it."
Ridiculous.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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John, the rumor was that you wrapped your hands in welder's gloves and tape for the FFA of Paisano Overhang.
Personally, I think that's just fine. But, if true, it makes the point that for OW's, opinions vary because physical geometry makes a huge difference in "necessary" and in perceived difficulty.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Urban rumor. Did another ascent without tape and even have the scars now. No one accused me of being smart. "Taping your hands to fit the crack" is not a strategy that I've ever herd working since it's the expansion of a jam that does the business.
I never talked a load of sh#t about that FFA but I should have just to have stirred the pot. More fun that way. Look at us!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Good points. Thanks, John.
Edit: One thing I neglected to say, though, is that if the crack had been, say, just one-inch wider than your most expanded fist-jam, but just too narrow for a hand/fist combo to fit, then "the route" (for you) is going to feel much harder than for somebody who can employ a straightforward fist-jam. You'll have to employ a less-secure and more exotic technique to negotiate the rig.
That was the basis of the rumor about Paisano: It was supposedly OW fist and too small for fist/hand. The many times I climbed at Suicide, I was never motivated to go up and see for myself. LOL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I did read the whole thing. And what caught my BS-detector every time was the repeated insistence of this sort of thing: "We’re not even being bold here. We’re just being sensible."
So, there are "standard detached blocks," apparently, that a "sensible" climber should just place cams behind "without worry." LOL!
Listen, I know a thing or two about loose rock and detached blocks. There are few on this forum who can assert that HALF of their routes on a formation have fallen off in their own lifetime. The Riverside Quarry is a mass of blasted, loose crap, and it is to this day. But I became VERY aware of what could be made to work (at repeated risk of my life) on that crap. And it's why on plenty of other "fearsome" expanding pitches, I felt "meh" because by comparison to a "standard detached block" at the Quarry, I felt very solid.
But think about what that's saying! "Standard detached block." So, "nobody should consider it particularly dangerous." ROFL! Tell that to somebody climbing Stay of Execution when the duplex-sized roof-traverse falls out. It was a BIG "standard detached" block at the Quarry, and it never gave any bad signs the many times I nailed it. So, it's good. Until it isn't. And it's in two big pieces at the base as I write this now.
There is an INSANE level of hubris to refer to a "standard detached block" as something deserving a "judgment downgrade"! When talking about routes at the Quarry, I would ALWAYS warn people things like, "The traverse is easy nailing IF the block stays. But who can say about something like that. I consider that traverse to be A1 XXX, which is an absurd rating. But, then, the whole rating game is absurd. In point of fact, everything out here can fall off at a moment's notice, and there's a big talus slope to prove it."
"Standard detached block," my AZZ! The FA has every right to bolt beside a "standard detached block," and the "heros" who chopped the bolts may well end up responsible for the death of whoever gets gooshed by the Mental Block. When you agonize over and then place a bolt next to a block, you are making a DECISION in favor of upping the odds of living. What the "standard detached block" argument says is: NOBODY should do that route who is not prepared to roll the dice on dying through no fault of his/her own. But it's the FA prerogative to make such a decision, and its not "bad judgment" to say, "The Mental Block seems pretty fearsome to me, and I ultimately came to conclude that nobody should have to risk placing protection behind it."
I did read both articles, and I found a huge pile of unjustified hubris in both. All of it, of course, wrapped in the "standard disclaimers" about NOT being hubris.
So, what's the point here? The best case that the "Huge Downgrade" camp can make is: "We have 'objective' evidence that the FA rating was WAY off, and the FA assessment of 'danger' was WAY off, so Pam's FA judgments in the future cannot be trusted." That is what this thread is seeking to establish. Nothing more lofty than that.
And my response is: Fail!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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MB1: A good friend bitd used to say, "There are only three climbing ratings: 'Hard,' 'really hard,' and 'I can't do it.' There are no 'easy' climbs, because 'easy' wouldn't be 'climbing.'"
Resonates. Jim Holloway's system. Three grades are all you need on boulders. I have no idea about Wides.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ No, no, John. You are SO far behind the times! Now we need the whole V-system, with OBJECTIVE and very fine-grained distinctions to enable us to rank people into neat boxes on higher and lower shelves, such as: "She onsights V7, while he does V9 but has never onsighted one." And, "She rated a certain problem V8, but it's been repeated twice, and the consensus is only V7, so clearly she hypes her routes."
Pfffttt. Get with the program!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Grug i know all that. I was pretty much agreeing with, mostly. And remember, I Have done froecver war and I Did say it’s easier than .13 if you’re our sizes and dont invert!
You still have 20’+’ to go on Lucille ( I have the photos, from across the way, not the man spearing shots from straight below that look like you’re “ there” ) so don’t be counting ( and rating) That chicken before you hatch it!😎.
And cottonsides did You read what I, wrote? You just couldn’t resist the straw man? All I said was thatn I didn’t lie back, and then that as a geologist and having a history with that wall and the things that have come off it in th last 8 years; my assessment is that The mental block is suspect, and I sure would NOT put pro behind it!
That’s it! Quit putting words, or your own Interpretations of what you think I must have meant, in my mouth! Peace!
As for the rest of what you said, it’s moot until you get up there yourself. “Bolted cracks” you say. That’s, two pro bolts in 500’ of climbing. As for t chnique, Get your ass up there and see what manner you prefer. We’re roughly the same dimensions.u”. Until then do not presume to be capable of an opinion of what you do not know.😎 jeez!
Edit; so the Wholw Thing is moot, as, according to their account in grippedmag, the Didnt Even Attempt the Crux and instead climbed that alternate handcrack we were talking about above!
From gripped mag;
“The Wide Boyz duo made the second ascent of The Kill Artist, a four-pitch route first climbed by Scott Massey, Evan Wisheropp and Pamela Pack in 2017. The second pitch was graded 5.13 and a bolt was added. Randall and Whittaker found the bolt had been chopped, but it didn’t matter much as they found an easier variation by stemming to a hand crack. They graded the 5.13 pitch at 5.11-.”
The rated a variation to the 5.13 pitch, 5.11-!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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You know, I just did type into Google, "Vedauwoo, Forever War". I immediately see the title, "The Hardest Offwidth Crack at Vedauwoo". Suddenly I remember my initial reaction to the presumptuousness of this title. You can also see her video of doing it easy enough on the internet. I'm going on record as saying that this route is likely to be easier than many of Scarpelli's 5.11's, at least for me. I just had one attempt a couple of years ago, following somebody (a very good climber) who pretty much aided it. Turns out, I got 80% through the overhanging part using a left-side-in armbar rather than an invert. I pretty much just ran out of gas. After I fell, I was lowered and then successfully followed it from bottom to top as a lieback => undercling => offwidth. I would rate this way of doing it as 5.11+ at most as a follow -- mostly because I did it.
I'm really not crowing, really. It's BECAUSE I know that I'm not even close to being a 5.12 climber that this strikes me as something that should be brought up. Calling Forever War 5.13 and the hardest offwidth at Vedauwoo kind of denigrates offwidth climbing at Vedauwoo in a way. What ever happened to 5.12 in offwidth climbing? Seems like it was mostly bypassed.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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So, "Hardest offwidth in Vedauwoo." Ohhh, Pam is hyping again.
I know that the principle of charity is just out the window here, but let's give it a try.
"Probably the hardest offwidth at Vedauwoo," which is Pam's actual statement, is not the statement that "Edelweiss Ropes U.S.A. and Liberty Mountain" make in hyping the video. That word, "probably" is very different from the categorical claim made by "Edelweiss Ropes U.S.A. and Liberty Mountain," which wants to sell product without regard to objective truth.
Are you aware that Pam almost destroyed her kidneys (requiring surgery) from a fall on the route? Hard to see how you can compare what you were thinking from basically top-roping the route with what Pam was thinking. Hard to see how you can compare techniques you used with what you'd commit to using on lead. Hard to see how you can compare techniques that are good for you with what Pam might have to use. This is back to the whole "normal person" absurdity.
The question here is: Is Pam systematically hyping? Or is Pam being quoted as saying things that SHE actually isn't saying, and what she actually says is based upon her absolutely legitimate perceptions ON LEAD?
In every video I've seen of the route (now two routes) in question, it's her SPONSORS hyping the routes, interviewing people (not Pam) as saying hyperbolic things, and making assertions to drive views and therefore advertising, which is the whole point of sponsorship?
If you carefully and charitably listen to what PAM actually says, it's dialed WAY back from the hyperbolic and categorical statements made by her SPONSORS.
I can tell you first-hand that you have ZERO control over what even a publisher says to sell books! SO much hyperbolic crap went onto the back cover and marketing materials of Wings of Steel that I contacted the publisher just before the first publication run, saying, "Please, please don't print that stuff! It is literally not true." You would think that a RELIGIOUS publisher would care about truth, but not so. Publishers publish books to make money, which thrusts them into the whole marketing hype mindset.
It's disgusting to me when the climbing community devours its own over the finest points of "style" and "ratings," as if there are objective standards of comparison! There ARE climbers who have become widely known for lying about their routes. Pam is not one of those. So, how about a bit of charity?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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how about don't give a grade to a climb you have not led...…
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Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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It is so interesting the way so many discussions of amazingly challenging achievements are so hand-wringingly worked over here.
Climb got down-graded. Whatever. I'm sure it is plenty hard.
Why does everyone want to splatter stuff on the net about how their world view is so much more solid and less chossy than yours?
btw, I could never toprope that thing, never.
Dave "former weekender"
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WBraun
climber
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Sounds like a bunch of bald guys arguing over a comb.
LOL ...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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how about don't give a grade to a climb you have not led...… Estimating a RP grade from past experience on established routes with consensus is a LOT more solid than assigning one at a level you’ve never done before anywhere else, ever.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I had a guy hanging on a TR falling all over the place tell me that the 10+ he was on was only 10a. Whatever dude. you can't even climb it and your down gradeing it. STFU. one of the guys downgradeing pams climb said his leader is super strong and basicly aided it then he ran out of gas and fell. but really its easy. Top ropeing a crack it's often easy to climb outside the crack because you don't have to place gear. the monster layback may be easy on TR but a solo on lead if you can't place from there. Whatever it is if you feel the need to downgrade it you damn well better have led it clean first. almost does not count....
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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one of the guys downgradeing pams climb said his leader is super strong and basicly aided it then he ran out of gas and fell I know,- the name of this climber is JLP
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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According to the Gripped article, they didn’t even try the crux pitch, but did indeed opt for the hand crack variation to the left. Is That true, did they downrate a move they didn’t even try?
“The Wide Boyz duo made the second ascent of The Kill Artist, a four-pitch route first climbed by Scott Massey, Evan Wisheropp and Pamela Pack in 2017. The second pitch was graded 5.13 and a bolt was added. Randall and Whittaker found the bolt had been chopped, but it didn’t matter much as they found an easier variation by stemming to a hand crack. They graded the 5.13 pitch at 5.11-.”
So according to this, they didn’t even attempt the part that all the fuss is about.
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WBraun
climber
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they found an easier variation by stemming to a hand crack
LOL, that's how you cheat and then downgrade.
I watched this guy once leading the Cringe years ago grabbing every piece he placed and hang on it then proceeded on.
I asked him "how was the cringe today?"
He said; "it wasn't too hard and it's overrated".
LOL ..... yeah ... OK ....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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This is too funny!
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dhayan
climber
culver city, ca
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Can you guys just tell me who is the coolest when you figure it out?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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They did the “Skip the Wide, Boys,” variation.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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😂
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Always get the data.
So I have to admit - watching Pam max out on a climb is way more interesting than watching her talk smack as in the other 99% of the video.
She looks pretty hot here.
However - I have to say - the Wide Boys beta looks pretty obvious and more correct.
EDIT: From about 8:50 to 9:20 - the rest of that video is nails on a chalkboard to me.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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That hand crack practically smacks you in the face, why wouldn't that be the more obvious and protectable choice to begin with??
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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more correct
ROFL!
So, this entire thread exists to bash on Pam for supposedly hyping, etc. Oh, whoops, the SA didn't even do the business, and now the defenders of this demonstrably false attack-thread "justify" this absurdity with "more correct."
BS
Steaming, heaping piles of BS.
You can't "huge downgrade" what you didn't even do, and you can't "justify" a "huge downgrade" by lamely saying, "Well, but they did it the more correct way." It's a variation, which is fine in itself. But there's no "more correct" way to get up the rig. Pam rated what SHE did, and that has not had a "huge downgrade".
Just own it: This whole thread is a cluster-fornication based upon what is dangerously close to a lie.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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This is just an outdoor version of colored routes at the gym.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Yeah - mkay...
So here's a legit - consensus - mere 12- - just for comparison.
[youtube=https://youtu.be/W2ga4SVOyTI]
This chick looks long, lean and strong - like she'd fuk Pam's routes up - with just a little more experience.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
https://nutagain.org
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No, it just means its bad beta.
That is the foundation of climbing as a way to pass time- finding something with a perfectly good way to walk up the backside, and then using bad beta to make it more difficult. Why split hairs over someone finding a more difficult way than most (any?) of us can do?
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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yes, there are a lot of unfriendly competition in OW climbing. I remember when Wide boys came touring in US from what they speak it was obvious for me that they came mostly to make a statement than they better OW climbers than "local" and climbing was secondary goal.
No surprise that when they place "objective" trip report - they try to intentionally put down any American OW climbers
Even though CC is 12+ tops
How do you know this Smassey?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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She couldnt even do a 10+ Pam put up onsight. Haha - that's funny - climbing chicks - they all fuking hate each other!
My money is on Brother project sender chick in a street fight, hands down.
She does look inexperienced - a fixable problem - but she had the strength to eventually send a physical route and it's obvious to watch - can't BS that.
And frankly turning that lip on Brother looks way f'n harder than KA.
Watch out Pam!
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Alexey,
Do you have a link to Pete and Tom putting down local climbers? One of the things that always impressed me about those guys is that they always seemed stoked and humble, I have never heard either of them put down another climber. While I think PSP is an awesome and talented climber I can't say the same for her including her homophobic slur a few years back. Let your climbing speak for itself.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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this is how I remember from full movie. This was said by Pete not very direct way, but with some interpretation it looks very obvious at least for me. I accept that someone can interpret the same thing differently and even do not notice anything wrong.
I can not find this episode quickly, but
here is short video, different episode, Tom is speaking - your can watch from ~2:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWg1VfHmq3E
and the way how they advertise the trip:
"The Wide Boyz Take Over American Offwidth Climbing"
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Alexey, seems like the Americans were the ones making the claims that Pete and Tom were out to make a statement. Looks to me like Pete and Tom worked their asses off and climbed hard and had fun. I still haven't read or heard them talk down about any other climbers and downgrading a climb isn't the same as bad mouthing.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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yes, downgrading a climb is much more civil way than bad mouthing but can hurt even more.
BTW, I am not taking any side, I am just try to say that in this case grades up or down sometimes reflects relations between OW climbers and their claims to be the best
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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My recollection of it all is those guys came over here with the intent to uncover and expose the big OW grading lie - but in a streak of inexperience and occasional weakness - not to mention the prospects of good sponsor PR and making a movie - they fell to the Dark Side!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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The new ow climbs have moved way out of the pay grade of this aging climber. Interesting perspectives here....bitd most ow climbs needed upgrading rather than downgrading.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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JLP,
How are they exposing the big OW grading lie when they worked their butts off for two years prior to their trip? Sounds like they knew the routes were hard and didn't want to walk away empty handed. The fact that they worked so hard toward a goal goes to show just how hard these OW routes are, not how soft the grades are.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Yeah, well, what's getting lost in the new ecumenicism here is that this thread exists to bash on Pam, and that's how it has been largely employed. When bashing is legit, that's one thing. But this was not, so it was just painful.
Instead of CYA with "bad beta," why not man up and admit: "We jumped to conclusions. Sorry, Pam."
Again, it's pretty disgusting how other climbers are quick to dogpile one of their own on the basis of pretty thin "evidence."
It's clear that some just don't like Pam, so they are quick to see just what they are looking for when what they are looking for is a "reason" to rip her.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ So, I've learned something about you, personally, now that I'll file away for future reference: Being "right" is more important than being reasonable/honest.
They did NOT climb "the same piece of rock." That is now beyond debate. But you just move the definition of "same" to mean, I guess, something closer to "same formation" or something like that.
Once I see that somebody is just playing games to cover their incorrect claims, I quit arguing.
This thread is a cluster-fornication based on bad CLAIMS, not "bad beta."
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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I just watch the video of Kill Artist again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=150&v=Z4zv894cBRA
I found a lot of things strange.
The FA crew talking almost half of the clip time about bolt they put. Big facking deal - the bolt FA team consider need for safety need 10 minutes of explanation that it eligible? Really?
Than presumably one of the members of this crew who praise Pam in this video and talk about necessity of the bolt later choped the bolt + rappel bolts from adjacent route?
Than Brits fly over Atlantic ocean->climb-> come back -> immediately update facebook from 5.13 to 5.11 and want money back from airfare because they find hand crack instead of invert.
is this a friendly/healthy climbing environment ?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Exactly, and the pressing question that the Pam-bashers have to ask themselves is: Am I a better human being for having jumped on this band-wagon?
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Dang you guys sure have a lot of free time.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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I think it is ignorant, or naive, or egotistic to claim there is a perfect beta to do any climb, for all climbers of all spectrums, from <4'7" to >6'4", with big hands or small hands, big trunks or skinny bodies. It is laughable how people take ratings so seriously, as if ultimately the perfect rating can be scientifically proven.
I remember a 5.11d crack in Indian Creek felt like a 5.9 to me. I don't make a fuzz there fully recognizing my unfair advantage with a certain size.
I know Generator Crack (5.10c) and Ahab (5.10b) in Yosemite have spit out many 5.12+ climbers (even on TR). There certainly is not a single blog post proposing to upgrade those climbs. The lack of symmetry says something about the culture.
The Wide Boyz made a bad move in my mind. They came, they repeated routes, and they did well. They should simply move on to their next challenge. That would have been a more noble thing to do.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Largo: Sounds like a bunch of bald guys arguing over a comb .
Lol^^^
Wow just wow- finally. Got around to reading this whole thing. I guess I'll weigh in as a female opinion- not that it will in any way has value or can balance the overflow of male ego steamrolling this thread. Pam' s my climbing hero - so I gotta give her my back. I give credit to the the Wideboyz were actually honest and respectful in their report.
Pam has made a stylistic choice with her offwidth climbing that works for her. She's a sponsored climber- therefore , like all professional climbers- there is an expectation to promote herself. It's a massive downgrade- but they basically did a different variation. (Edit to add: I actually agree it was, perhaps, a bit overhyped) . Both are legit experiences. I can't really comment on grades or the bolt removal or perceived danger.
I've learned over the years to never dis a climb you've never done. This whole thing is like a WOS flashback with the hoards of armchair dumbshits dogpiling on a FA that they haven't done and never will.. I'm finding myself nodding in agreement with all of Madbolter's comments ( for once) . His observations are spot on.
Side story: This reminds me of a Widefest out at JT. We were all beating our heads on Throbbing Gristle (5.12OW) . Russ Walling and a dozen other climbers flailing trying to properly OW the thing. I Finally some youngster punk stepped forward and just laybacked it- downrating of course.
... but it's just seemed like cheating In the OW universe . The layback seemed to miss the point in some weird way :)
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Despite recent good news in Royal Family, Sponsored British climbers very worried about over- bolting in Long Canyon, UT
Tom just posted this on his FB profile:
(F)log
To Bolt or Not to Bolt? To Hype, or Not to Hype?
The title itself is a question that’s raised its head a number of times over the last few years – and least not when Pete and I have been talking about some of our US crack climbing adventures whilst mid-trip. I don’t really get involved with opinion writing that much as generally it kicks up a load of sh#t and mostly I don’t have time to get into long internet discussions. This time though it’s a bit different, as for once, both me and Pete thought a recent experience in Utah warranted bring these somewhat sensitive subject matters to the point of open debate. Despite the obvious discomfort some of this might cause I think we have to be prepared to tackle the subject matter of bolting cracks in trad areas and the hyping of certain routes beyond the reality of their supposed danger.
What caused this? It was a fairly innocuous day of offwidth climbing just outside Moab to repeat the lauded routes of The Dark Passenger and The Kill Artist. The latter route has a pretty cool video covering the FA (easy to find on google) and both feature some spectacular looking wide climbing. In the morning we climbed DP and in the afternoon we climbed KA, both swinging leads and climbing onsight. I write this, not to pump up our ability but more to illustrate that we were happy to “have a look” from the bottom and see how we got on (especially as KA had a pretty big reputation …. Watch the film to see) without any kind of frigging or top roping.
Ok, so what’s the big deal?
In my opinion (and yes, it’s my opinion…. So it’s not necessarily right…. But I am prepared to put it out there) the routes and the potential of the area are in danger of suffering from excessive bolting and over-hyping. Why do I say that? Does it even matter?
Over-bolting:
Bolting a wide crack (basically protectable in any section by a big friend) even if some of the rock isn’t totally bomber isn’t the way forward. It sets a standard by which climbers might as well just place bolts whenever they feel the rock is a little sketchy or when they’re not 100% protected. I don’t feel that Utah cracks need this. Sure, you might have to run it out 10-20ft (very rarely more) but really is that a massive deal considering we’ve all taken the choice to trad climb wide cracks?! 99% of the time, you can just walk a cam above your head if you’re freaked out at any point.
When we went on KA, the bolts had all been chopped (including nearly all the belays, which maybe wasn’t the most convenient thing) by an aggrieved local over something. We’d watched the video saying that they were totally necessary… but we beg to differ. We’re not even being bold here. We’re just being sensible. The Mental Block was a standard detached block that I’ve climbed on, around or over many times all over the world and placing cams behind it didn’t stress me out.
Over-hyping:
Both DP and KA have been reported to have big run outs on the wide sections and possible death/serious injury consequences. It does sound badass! But….. it’s just not true. DP has a whole “runout” section (see here mountainproject.com/route/1…) of 40-50ft which is just not true. You’ve got a bomber crack next to it and anything about not reaching the crack is simply not reality – my 7yr old daughter could reach between them. They’re about 4ft apart. Again, on KA there’s plenty of stuff going on about death blocks and the “Mental Block” at the crux with a 5.13 sequence. Myself and Pete just laybacked it and not in any way being harsh, suggested 5.11 (we could be mean and say less, but it’s not in our interest to sandbag, we’d rather just say it as it is). Sure, you could do some upside-down stuff, but it’s a bad choice as the chimney is 4ft wide and you just bridge at about 5.8 to reach into juggy laybacks. I would like to point out that getting sequences wrong is part of the game… so it’s not like we’re all immune to it… but multiple year projects with big statements of cruxes, death, crazy blocks should at least fit somewhat with reality. This is not the case.
Why do I care?
Exactly! Who cares….?! Just ignore the bolts, ignore the grades and ignore the hype. Well, I could (and I mostly do) but that would be ignoring what both of these issues do for the climbing development of the area and the up-and-coming youths. If stuff gets over-bolted then the challenge and adventure is massively reduced and if it’s over-hyped it scares everyone off and then sets a precedent that it’s sort of ok to fudge reality. If those routes were listed as safe and adventurous and at the true grades more people would get stuck in and see that they’re brilliant routes and they should be classics. The work that the FA put into those routes is currently not being realised because no one thinks it’s worth their life to take on a route like KA – the reality is that 100s of crack climbers around the world could all give it a good go and have great fun climbing a spectacular route. The same applies for DP – it’s an amazing route and deserves to become part of the wide circuit.
Final reminders….
1. I wasn’t entirely sure about writing this, because of the potential backlash and upset that it may cause. But then I thought about it and came to the conclusion that despite it being uncomfortable, it’s good to get things out in the open in the crack climbing community. This is especially true for the offwidth scene as over the last 5 years or so, it’s become a bit of a problem with certain things. No one’s prepared to say anything as it all gets a bit out of hand, so I’m going to say something! If any of my UK friends think the scene there has gossip and weird goings on, well just head over to the USA Wide Scene! Carnage.
2. This is mostly all opinion – it might not suit everyone, but how else do we arrive at a consensus? Similar to the point above, people seem to have got fed up with having to deal with “shit storms” so they just don’t say anything any more. We should! We’re all adults and I’m sure we can deal with it. If someone thinks Century is problematic, just say it. If another party reckons Pete should have run it out more… just say!
3. Grades and bolts should be a rough consensus. They’re controversial, which means the creators of them (the first ascensionist) shouldn’t be nervous about debating them.
4. I have in the process of writing this piece contacted the first ascensionist, people who’ve climbed on either line and people involved with the filming. In essence, I’ve tried to get a reasonably balanced view.
5. Finally – don’t take my word on the bolts or loose rock as gospel. It might not be right! I’m just putting across my opinion based on a lot of crack climbing all over the world on multiple rock types. It’s a fairly broad view and I’m not being bold and macho about it…. I’m not a particularly bold climber and I don’t have a big love for loose rock :-)
Photos by: Catherine Eden & Big Beauty Pitches
Good climbing days with: Pete Whittaker, Pete Whittaker
61
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Don’t we all although few would admit it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Climb whatever way you want, but don’t use one variation to grade another.
jump to what conclusion? The wide boys climbed the same piece of rock and said it was .11, not .13. They did not downgrade the first pitch of 12c.
No, cough outside, they didn’t. It was already in the record before you gave Pete the chance to backtrack, and “reaching over to the right at one point,” isn’t the same either. Pulling on a vertical corner is far different than throwing your foot over your head!
I’m still wondering about that first pitch being .12 c though, maybe they did the Schulte variation (?), that Does look harder....
And JLP, MISUSE OF COPYRIGHTED IMAGES.😱
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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When I saw this thread title I thought it was about driving a semi down the Sherwin Grade towing a double wide...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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that absolute last thing we need is a bunch of brits telling us how we have to climb and where we can or can't bolt. we already lived through that crap here in the north east when Henry Barber came back from the UK gritstone scene and imposed a bunch of silly britt rules on us..
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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^^^Are we a little defensive? Best line was creators of the route, FAs, should not fear discussion because ratings are controversial.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Now, had they put it like you did Caught, none of this would have been necessary😎
But they didn’t.
They made a point of saying they downrated a segment rating from .13a to .11- which is misleading.
So their variation is .12c. Got it.
Still hope they clarify about what exactly they did on pitch one that was .12c.
There is a left variation, a thin crack / lieback/ compression dealio, again a different line, that I failed on, and thought must be harder than the calflock pitch we put up originally.
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WBraun
climber
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If you do the second ascent as a variation then you didn't do the second ascent.
You did a variation.
Like ski racing.
You missed a gate and got across the finish line faster but you still failed ......
ANd you DQ'ed lol ..... st00pid climbers!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Perhaps somebody can explain how 13a down to 12c is a "huge downgrade," even IF the Brits HAD done Pam's moves, which they didn't. If my math is correct, that's two letters. Seems like statistically "within the margin of error," even if we were talking about the same moves, which we're NOT, particularly when comparing average men against a short woman.
For all the Brits' posturing about "fairness," this was a transparent smear job.
Caughtinside, are you a better person for having jumped on this bandwagon and then ridden it off the cliff?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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He’s a better person in real life!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ That's a relief.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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12c or 13a....lot’s of today's climbers are redpointing 12c...not many reach that grade on the wide side.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Lol - JBro = Pam's bitch.
Really - you're making her look worse - like a petty loser.
Nobody else anywhere including Pam are claiming Wide Boys were off route on some variation. The pix are pretty obvious and clear to anyone who didn't start climbing yesterday.
The difference between 13b and c is miles, if you've ever actually climbed a few - which it's sounding more and more like these OW clowns haven't - ever - anywhere.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ It would be mere "wanking" if the whole thing weren't a transparent attack on Pam's credibility.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Yes, but what a person should not have to "withstand" is "huge downgrade" when the SA team took a variation off to the side, a variation that Pam couldn't even reach.
Listen, you're just not going to successfully float the idea that Pete and Tom didn't have an agenda here, and that this whole "huge downgrade" has been comparing apples and oranges. Both fruit, yes, but different fruit in substantive ways.
Moreover, there's a back-story here that it's not my place to get into but that clarifies that this was a hit job, couched however it might be in claims of being "reasonable" and "sensible."
I believe that at this point reasonable minds know the story here, and the story is that NO "huge downgrade" took place.
'Nuff said.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Not “a couple holds” a sequence, Over a meter away, ( look at JLP’s photo) where you have do decide; one direction or the other. And yes, after the crux, you can reach from one to the other. Dude forget it! I’ve been up there, you haven’t. And why do you care so much? You’re never getting on it. You really think you can talk your way out of your ignorance on hypotheticals? Jeez, ask her out already.
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TRtim
climber
Moab
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Doesn't Pam know that the left wall, that left hand jam and doing a layback are on the 5.11a variation? Oops
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Well said, Grug!
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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I'm trying to visualize this:
So the "Mental Block" is the name given to a big block that's about 1m wide, and Pam's "route" is to declare that one edge (the left edge) of the block is off route (5.13 that way), but if you use just grab both edges of the block, it's 11-?
Is the reason why Pam's supporters think this could even plausibly be something worth reporting is that she did the FA?
In other words, can someone pick pretty much any trad (or sport?) pitch they like, strategically decide that certain parts of it are "off" to create some movement they like, assign a nice hard grade to their "route," and then pick up the paychecks from their sponsors?
What if a tall guy who is good at dynoing just starts picking some well spaced holds on whatever 5.11 he likes and then declares climbing that stretch of rock with only his holds is a "route" at whatever nice high number he likes--is that a newsworthy event too? Would it help if he says just climbing it the 5.11 way feels too skrunchy to him, so he prefers to do the dynos?
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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POPCORN GIF! (no copyright infringement)
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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I'm trying to visualize this
Where's my comb?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Blahblah, if your description had a shred of accuracy, you might be onto something. But it doesn't, and you're not. For one thing (among many) the Mental Block is much wider than "a meter." You see a picture with a significant foreshortening effect, and you apparently think you know something from that. Even the video clearly shows that at the point that matters, Pam couldn't possibly reach from one side of it to the other.
Jaybro has been there. You have not.
I freely agree that I'm a "Pam supporter," because I know her and I know something of the back story. MOST of the people here are speculating out of pure ignorance, and the "Pam detractors" are believing an account from Pete and Tom that is critically short of details on the very points that they use to downgrade "the route".
It's NOT that some easily-reachable section was "declared off-limits" by Pam. It's that there is a VARIATION around the Mental Block that is not within reach of what Pam did, and Pam could not reach that VARIATION. There are TWO ways to go, and one way is easier IF you are an average-sized male. If you are not, then you are faced with a very difficult choice. Pam chose the OW invert, and it's WAY harder than the VARIATION that Pete and Tom chose.
So, what Pete and Tom did (and "downgraded") is NOT what Pam did. And, given that pitch-ratings are OFTEN based on a short section or even a crux MOVE, "downgrading" something that the FA didn't even do is LAME.
And the bolt-chopper was a COWARD. Plain and simple. Regarding the original bolts, Pam made a judgment call that was reasonable. Calling anything like the Mental Block "safe" is ABSURD and negligent. If you don't agree with Pam's judgment call on the bolts, well, whatever. Opinions vary, and it's not like Pam did anything unprecedented! Her explanation of what she did is entirely reasonable and well within extremely widespread climbing judgment calls.
But all of the above is tangential to the real issue, which is that this "news" is an intentional hit-piece. And knowing Pam as I do, I consider the Pam-bashing to be unconscionable and disgusting. I'm not defending this or that rating. OW, period, of any rating, is above my pay-grade! But defending Pam from intentional hit-piece attacks veiled as "reasonable" and "sensible" is something I'll do any day of the week.
Those of you that insist on continuing this ridiculous thread really need to look into a mirror and ask yourself some hard questions....
* Do I KNOW anything with any confidence here?
* Why do I CARE to keep expressing my ignorant opinions that I've been told are hurtful to Pam?
* Do I really have any reliable evidence to think/speculate badly of Pam based upon this suppose "huge downgrade" "news"?
And the PUNT proffered by some, that "She's a professional climber, so she should be able to handle the scrutiny/heat" is ridiculous. Being a "professional" does NOT imply that you are standing there with a target sign on you that says, "Hit me with any wild speculations about my character, competency, and judgment that you can dream up."
MOST of this discussion is speculation on the basis of opaque "evidence" that leaves out the actually most important details.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There ARE "climbers" that richly deserve being called out. Pam is not one of them. And this supposed "scrutiny" is really just a thinly-veiled attack-piece.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Blahblah, if your description had a shred of accuracy, you might be onto something. But it doesn't, and you're not. For one thing (among many) the Mental Block is much wider than "a meter."
I wrote a meter based on:
(1) what Jaybro wrote above (he wrote "over a meter," but I sorta interpreted that as a meter or so, as he clearly has an incentive to maximize the distance, and if it were substantially over 1m, I think he would have said that, and
(2) 1m seems consistent with the pics I saw, although I freely admit I'm not a great Internet detective or forensics guy.
If it's substantially over 1m, fine, that's why I said I was trying to visualize the scene.
Not everyone here has some hidden agenda to attack the FA, I don't know her and don't really care about her one way or the other, except I admit to having some general interest in climbing news--that's why I peruse ST and made a post.
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TomRandall
Trad climber
Cracks
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I'll give you something:
1. I measured the block from side to side at the bottom. It's around 120cm or 48inches. In my view that's 4ft.
2. If you're unlucky enough to have an ape index under 4ft, then you can bridge (or undercut) the block and then just layback the RHS. It's a nice move, and a touch harder than holding both sides. It would also depend on whether you're saying that people can't bridge their left foot out.
Both of the routes were really good pieces of climbing and clearly took a lot of effort to clean and prepare. It's also nice to see that people enjoy debating this stuff... at least people care to give their opinion!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I'm not impugning your motives, blahblah, and I'm not saying that everybody here is attacking Pam. What I'm saying is that this whole story is not the "news" this thread was started to say that it was, and the people that keep speculating on what the "news" might be are just adding fuel to they know not what.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I measured the block from side to side at the bottom.
Seriously, you took up a tape measure?
WHO does that? Is a tape measure a standard bit of gear you carry on SAs?
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Surfandstone
climber
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If only we had a nice visual to help calm Jenkins down, oh wait we do:
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TRtim
climber
Moab
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"It's that there is a VARIATION around the Mental Block that is not within reach of what Pam did, and Pam could not reach that VARIATION." Madbolter
If she couldn't reach it, how come her hand is in the handjam and her foot is on the left wall?
Ryan Krum did the invert and called it 5.12-. He posted it on the mtn. project, but he also did the layback at 11a too.
It's not 13+, just like most of her reports, it's just fluff. Look up "Dream a little bigger", originally called 5.12 (new creek freak book) when she put it up and now it is considered 5.8 on mountain project. Maybe there is a variation on that one too?
Or how about pitch 2 of Dark Passenger? She called it 5.12 R (took her two years to "send", had pete m film it for real rock) even though it has 6 lead bolts right next to a crack and has been onsighted by every single repeater since. It is now considered, get ready for it..... 5.11a G
Probably just more variations I guess? She couldn't reach the good holds or gear (or 6 bolts?), or the deadly bats made it 5.12 or maybe her forearm thing so she couldn't hold onto the huge horizontal crack like a jug.
Also, Google "hype artist", that's the name of the variation posted on mountain project and a very appropriate name. Even better than the original!
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WBraun
climber
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Who here critiquing besides Jaybro actually climbed or tried it?
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Seriously, you took up a tape measure?
WHO does that? Is a tape measure a standard bit of gear you carry on SAs?
I wonder if there is a standard piece of gear that goes on most climbs that is around 120 cm (or fraction of)?
One can measure, quite accurately, linear distance with out a tape measure.
But you know this.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Who here critiquing besides Jaybro actually climbed or tried it?
I think that feller Tom sounds like he has some experience on it.
Ha ha.
Pass the popcorn...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Minds are made up.
Seriously, the climbing "community" is so often outright disgusting. Nothing more to say here.
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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ryan krum just climbed it both ways
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Surfandstone
climber
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I wonder if there is a standard piece of gear that goes on most climbs that is around 120 cm (or fraction of)?
One can measure, quite accurately, linear distance with out a tape measure.
But you know this.
No he doesn’t know this - dude hasn’t tied in for ages, I’ll bet.
You guys are funny - I stopped caring about MBs rantings after he said that during his lifetime, being white in America didn’t afford anyone any advantages. Lol! He said possibly before that, but not during. Lol again!
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Ben909
Sport climber
toronto
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Minds are made up.
Pot, meet kettle.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Who here critiquing besides Jaybro actually climbed or tried it? Lol - JBro is the Wankfather of the modern overgraded offwidth.
The real question is who besides JBro on this forum - or even the entire climbing community - is offering their expertise on 13+ without ever actually having climbed one?
So for this rig, it sounds like we have 1 repeat at 11- using the handcrack - 12- without.
I have to say 12- appears generous for a section you can still lock a heal-toe in, and the guy giving it that admits he's never touched a consensus 13. However - so be it - it still sounds way more real than 13+.
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Surfandstone
climber
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Oh wow, look at this pic of Tom on it.
That’s a clear variation, right? So far off route im about to spit!
HOHMANN the Bolter is awfully quiet now.
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PolishClimber
Trad climber
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Those saying that critiquing without actually having climbed it is off limits... Tom Randall climbed it, and it appears he chimed in...
And when he gives you the measurements, you chide him for bringing a tape measure...
It also sounds like the transition into the lie-back move is not necessarily height dependent, but that the FA simply chose a different path.
Downgrading the route takes nothing away from the FA, or the impressive athletic feat of the inversion. It is still a wild and impressive move, but it doesn't appear mandatory. I think the SA party is simply pointing out that there is an easier way forward.
The amount of rage being expressed over this is silly, frankly.
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Natetronn
climber
Sutter Creek
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God, I guess I'm going to have to get on this thing and settle the debate once and for all.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Geeze I don't know how many 5.9's I made into a 5.12d debacle in my lifetime or even A5. Hundreds I'd guess.
Carry on.
S....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Really Tom, a tape measure?😎
Ryan confessed to chopping it, it’s news to the world that’s he’s also climbed / inverted it. Maybe his belayer / chopping associate will shed some light on this.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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This discussion sounds a little like a discussion of the difference between a bouldering problem and a bouldering route. On the pebbles it makes sense.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Didn't that scary precipitous "death block" have someone pulling over/on it like a kid climbing on a refrigerator ?
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Mrhandstack
Trad climber
Sandy, Utah
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I have not climbed this route yet but in my own experiences, so far I’ve found Pamela’s Event Horizon roof (13C) to be closer to 12-, Dark Passenger P2 (5.12) to be 11-, and Jihad (supposedly 5.13) to be 5.11a/b.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 10, 2019 - 02:25am PT
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“Mr Handstack” 1 post..... how’s things Danny?
When are you posting a TR on the CC?
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Mrhandstack
Trad climber
Sandy, Utah
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May 10, 2019 - 07:26am PT
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Hey Jay, things are good! I literally don’t know what you mean by posting a TR?! Do you need help with CC? I’d be happy to help you if you’re still interested in it.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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May 10, 2019 - 09:00am PT
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Mr handstack, what would you rate century crack?
Thanks
Ezra
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rkrum
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 09:28am PT
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After consideration, I feel an explanation is warranted. There is quite a bit of misinformation being touted as undisputed truth.
Last spring, I climbed Kill Artist for myself for the first time. I am skipping over many details, but this was a route I had eagerly anticipated climbing. I was very disappointed when I found the route was not at all what I had been told to expect. After about a week of careful consideration, I went back, chopped and patched Kill Artist in its entirety (P1 has since been rebolted by Scott Massey and Pamela Pack) and cleaned up pitch 2 of Dark Passenger. No other people were involved in the climbing of the route, the decision to chop the route or the chopping and patching itself. I removed all the bolt parts and patched every empty hole. My intent was not to destroy but to make a statement that Kill Artist is NOT an example of how things ought to be done.
My decision to chop the entirety of Kill Artist rather than just the pro bolts was in an effort to separate myself from all the other "haters" that accuse Pamela of chronic over bolting. I was determined to make it clear that this wasn't just about a bolt or two, but something bigger than that. This was never motivated by anger or revenge. I went through ~$30 of epoxy and spent hours patching all 13 of the 1/2 inch holes myself. I think the effort I went through to not leave a blown out mess of rock up there backs up my assertion that this wasn't retribution.
I also removed and patched 6 bolts (5 pro bolts) from Dark Passenger on the basis that they were unnecessary, two of which were ASCA hardware placed on an original route. I have climbed the pitch without clipping the bolts before I decided they weren't needed. I want to note that this is how I believe the desert should be cleaned up. As Tom and Pete said, don't chop anchors too.
These lines are two of the most spectacular desert cracks I have ever laid eyes on. Both are 5 star desert offwidth multipitch routes. I absolutely agree with Tom and Pete that they should be sought after classics that many people would enjoy, not overhyped monuments for attention seeking behavior in Long Canyon.
I have not discussed this publicly up to this point because I did not feel there was any way it wouldn't devolve into a massive sh#t slinging contest. However, in lieu of Tom's write up, I am speaking up now in an effort to further constructive dialogue about how things should be done in an area and genre of climbing that is dearly important to me.
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rkrum
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 09:53am PT
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Honestly, I have a hard time saying I was involved in that route so much as I was a climbing partner and friends with Pam at the time she was putting up the route. I didn't really put any work into the route - I happened to show up one weekend to go climbing and was asked to say a few words about the it. Up to that point I had climbed p1 and peeked at p2 on my way down from dark passenger. At the time I did not realize the picture my words were helping paint.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
https://nutagain.org
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May 10, 2019 - 10:27am PT
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I've never climbed harder than a 5.10 OW and haven't laid eyes on the climb in question. That firmly establishes my lack of credentials for this conversation! In true Supertopo fashion, I won't let that stop me.
The pictures here do make it look like the left way up is the more obvious way to start over the roof, then reach across if the path continues up the right crack. The jams don't look heinous and the reach-across doesn't seem outrageous. It looks like something I would like to try on toprope or following a stronger leader. That said, I can't keep track of how many times I have thought something looked easy from below or guessed on a sequence or been impatient with a leader, only to understand how I was wrong when I was in the position doing it.
When I get on wide cracks, I tend to get tunnel-vision and just awkwardly smoosh my shoulders into a narrow flare and cheese-grader or inchworm my way up, and stick with wide jams. I easily miss features on the face or more outside stemming opportunities. Maybe folks who are good at and enjoy inverted OWs focus on those solution types while overlooking more obvious ways.
And lastly, different people carry different baggage about falling block accidents, and that causes very different but still valid perceptions about the risk of a big block coming loose. That figures hugely in how to solve a route problem. I have definitely done some stupid hard stuff to avoid touching suspicious features when there is an obvious way to just yank through.
In summation, those of us who haven't been there have no real basis to pass judgment, and those who have been there should not really give a crap about whatever judgment is passed :)
And ratings are useful when they help climbers seek out the right level of personal challenge. But they sure seem like a can of worms when we attach our identity or career to them. Then again, I haven't gone all in to the climbing game, so I don't really understand.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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May 10, 2019 - 11:44am PT
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a lot of hypocrisy in bolt choppers word. Most of the time choppers try to hide real intention of faking/arguing with other climbers as taking care of pristine rock and good climbing stile. Your better tell what up with you and your former partner
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 10, 2019 - 11:58am PT
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If he'd left the belay bolts in, the story would be a lot straighter - ie, hey this is a 5 star route everyone should do - and btw I feel strongly that the protection bolts should meet the standard of other routes in the area.
Erasing the route entirely = Pam said no to his advances.
The more I see inside this group of OW clowns, the more I see it all as nothing more than an alternative lifestyle - and at the same level - to a job at McDonald's. ie, GFL getting a clear and articulate reason for anything - grades, chopping - anything. All I see is childish insecurity and ego to a degree that would not be acceptable for a moment in the mature working career adult world - that none of them will ever be a part of and they know it.
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Mrhandstack
Trad climber
Sandy, Utah
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May 10, 2019 - 12:31pm PT
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Ezra,
It's really quite hard for me to suggest a grade for Century as it's the most difficult route I've climbed to date. Compared to routes like Gabriel, The Forever War, or even boulders like 8 ounces to freedom, Century feels miles away personally. I hope to climb more routes close to that grade here shortly so I can elaborate further, but if I were pressed to an answer I would confirm the Wideboyz suggested grade and be shocked if the grade were to drop whatsoever in the future.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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May 10, 2019 - 12:55pm PT
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Thanks for the thoughtful answer, Mr handstack.
climbers are my favorite group of people .
You can have discussions with the greats of the sport.
Cheers!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 10, 2019 - 02:06pm PT
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Mr Handdanny I just figured there had to be a story there. Im sure it meant a lot to
You. The first ascent made quite the story that we all saw; basement cracks, traveling a around the world, warming up on that host of other hard Offwidths. Pinkpointing, returning, cleaning that up etc.
You must have a story as well! Did You, train In a basement for two years? How long did you work on it? How many times did you make the trek? Surely there is a story in there to share in narrative form, isn’t there?
That’s all really
I went out there a couple times, two fall seasons in a row. Did all the
moves, worked on putting it together then dislocated my shoulder canyoneering. Still rehabbing from that, ( healing is slower in your sixties) currently, but I have acguired a 4wd again and plan to head back in the fall, & have a bunch of other projects out there as well. Don’t have space to put a roof crack machine at home though, so am🚂 ing inother ways..,
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 10, 2019 - 02:33pm PT
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So Ryan, if you really had so little to do with creating this route, ( and I remember finding you bivvying on my family room floor when I got up early for work, often before dawn, over half a dozen weekends, while it was being worked on..) what gave you, a relatively green climber, the notion that you had any business chopping somebody else’s creation? Kinda cheeky, to say the least. Was it due to that unfortunate series of concussions you sustained?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 10, 2019 - 04:07pm PT
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As Donini suggested, it's kinda interesting how offwidth climbing has gone from a type of climbing that the average climber found hard-for-the-grade to a type of climbing where, with a little work, you can apparently approach climbing at the 5.13 grade.
I don't like bashing people, but I do think that grades are an interesting point of discussion. I've done lots of 5.11 offwidths over my 48 years of climbing, although it never constituted more than maybe 5% of my climbing diet overall. Realistically, I'm a somewhat bigger guy for a climber (180 lbs), and I always found offwidths easier for the grade than other types of climbing, where being light was more important. For a long time I considered myself a 5.11 overall climber and maybe a 5.11+ offwidth climber. I mean, back in the '70's when I actually climbed more than a few days a month, there just weren't that many offwidths graded harder than 5.11+.
Bob Scarpelli is a good example of a climber with my mindset (not to mention age). Although Bob's climbs are considered underrated by most modern climbers, most climbers, in general, are deficient in good offwidth technique. With good technique, offwidth climbs should be comparable to other types of climbing for the same grade. Personally, I think that some of Bob's climbs are 5.12-, but, like him, I considered 5.12 as an elite grade that I could achieve only when the climb really fit my dimensions and sweet spot (bigger than knees - I have big knees, dammit).
It's only since being on Supertopo that I even considered offwidth climbing as a distinct climbing pursuit. And, seemingly out of the blue, the offwidth standard jumped from 5.11+ to 5.13+. But many of those supposed 5.13 climbs suddenly seemed to be within my reach as a 62 year-old weekend warrior, despite the fact that I still can't do some of Scarpelli's 5.11s. It's a first world problem, but I would call it grade inflation, pure and simple. The idea of me climbing a 5.13 non-offwidth climb would be ludicrous to me and the people I climb with. Clearly, something is out-of-whack in the offwidth climbing scene
Btw, anybody participating here done Air Voyage, in the Black Canyon? I'm pretty sure that this is the only consensus 5.12(-) that I ever on-sighted.
Greg Cameron
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 10, 2019 - 05:42pm PT
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I would put Air Voyage between the Monster and Crack of Doom - 11-. Definitely easier than, say, that Pink-whatever Scarpelli 11- route in Vedauwoo. The Caveat is I did it a few weeks after you posted your beta to MP.com and I had that ginormous rack you posted. OMG, was that a joke? I had to hang not because I was tired or about to fall, it's that I just couldn't deal with all that gear. So - my grade-o-meter could be off. I lead the Monster (eventually), direct variation from below the Ear, as a 70m rope stretcher, with a single cam - have always wanted to go back to Air Voyage and clean up that little taint in my history, leading it the same way.
Also, regarding grade comparisons - really, I think these 11 OW’s rank even with other trad crack routes. The grades should assume perfect technique and after a few laps they tend to merge. I’ve also done numerous 13’s up and down the spectrum in super-consensus areas like Rifle and elsewhere - trad, sport, cracks and limestone all over the country. There’s simply no comparison. I’m not going to repeat my rants of earlier posts except to say if you’ve never climbed a consensus 13+ on bolts, there’s no way in hell you’re doing it in the OW.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 10, 2019 - 06:25pm PT
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Thanks, JLP, I suspected 5.11+. To tell you the truth, I had no idea of Air Voyage's consensus. I had just never seen postings from anybody else who had led it, so I was going with the FA rating, alas!
Back to, I am nowhere near a 5.12 climber (and I'm fine with that).
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 10, 2019 - 06:32pm PT
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Mine's a BS data point - no RP!
11+ - sure - maybe - I dunno - check out Brother from Another in the photo upthread - maybe watch the video - that's 12- to me - tons of consensus.
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Mrhandstack
Trad climber
Sandy, Utah
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May 10, 2019 - 06:52pm PT
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Hey Jay, I thought TR meant top rope but now I realize you meant trip report:)
I'd be happy to do a full write up but I'll give you the bullet points here.
I did a one year training plan through Lattice that Tom essentially morphed out of his and Pete's two year training plan. Since I had about 5 years experience and had climbed 13C at that point Tom figured that half of their training would suffice.
The training was mostly on the crack machines in my garage and started out as 50 minute sessions and slowly grew in length as well as difficulty. I did a trip down early last fall and climbed it in 20' sections and then pinpointed the roof.
The three weeks prior to my send I did mock red points (in the garage) where I would hang a 12lbs sandbag from my harness and go as slow as I could. The first week I had a 17 minute 100' session, the second week I did a 24 minute 140' session, and the week prior to Century I had a 35 minute 200' session.
After those three weeks I took a week to rest, drove down and redpointed on my first attempt. I was really close to failure several times on the route and still don't know how I managed to stick the pivot at the end of the roof. In all I was on the route for 37 minutes 27 of those being inverted.
It was one hell of an experience that really trashed my body. Those last three sessions took me about 5 to 6 days of recovery each and Century took me about two weeks except my hamstring which I noticed on the hike out wasn't working very well and is only now starting to feel alright (I suspect it partially tore).
If anyone were looking for advice I would say that a crack machine is almost mandatory and that training with extra weight is crucial for building up the endurance in your feet and ankles.
I still feel like I got pretty damn lucky and would like to go back and have another go on it as it truly was a ton of fun to climb.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 10, 2019 - 07:33pm PT
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Bingo! Thanks! Sorry for the confusion about “ TR”! I didn’t catch what the question was.! Hat was pretty succinct thanks. Got the facts would love to hear the story sometime.
Now to Intiigrate this
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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May 10, 2019 - 08:26pm PT
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I think it is not fair for Mr. Randall to assume that the moves that worked for him should have worked for anyone else, and it is downright insulting and condescending to claim that a move that required his full 6'+ wing span ( see image https://cdn-uploads.mountainproject.com/forum/106196.jpg ) would work for someone of a 4ft index. Sure, he can argue that his arms and chest were not completely flat against the rock, but it does not take a pro to know that you need at least some flex in your span when climbing a fridge. He looked quite strained to me in that picture.
And then it is frustrating to witness some internet spectators claim certain moves would have worked for a climber purely based on photos from another totally different climber.
I'm by no means a defender of Ms. Pam, and fully respect Randall and Whittaker's personal experiences, but I also respect Ms. Pam's personal experience. Number ratings change nothing in a climber's personal experience. I'm just calling out injustice as I see it.
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jonnywoodward
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 08:54pm PT
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Let's face it. Offwidth climbing is manly. Wrinkle in the back manliness. Unless you've trained in Yosemite for multiple seasons you wouldn't know. You practically had to have been born under the Generator Crack to be any good. Or conceived, anyway. Were those Wide Brits born under the Generator. Nooooooo. I hate them. They soloed my hard offwidth. Do you know how much my feelings were hurt by that? Those giant stainless steel testicles have been small knee-scraping peas for two years now. But what this thread has taught me is that there is hope. There are people on here who can help with my hurt feelings. Please, start a new thread for me. For the stainless.
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WBraun
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 09:32pm PT
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LOL ....
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Surfandstone
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 10:10pm PT
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HOHMANN melonhead
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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May 11, 2019 - 07:13am PT
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Thank you for a fascinating insight into climbing community.
Frankly speaking I was confused by such heated exchange of opinions.
Is this mostly about establishing a pecking order in a fight for limited sponsors money?
Is this not personal but strictly business?
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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May 11, 2019 - 07:22am PT
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I just realize that Century Crack has second accent!
congratulations Mrhandstack and it would be very interesting to read more about this.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 11, 2019 - 07:47am PT
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On further reflection, offwidth climbing just has more techniques than other types of climbing, and it's hard to be equally good at all because there are trade-offs. Before maybe 20 years ago, I only had three; armbar, chicken wing, and (squeeze) chimney. Now there's various types of stacking and inverts. I still opt for the armbar over hand stacking more often than not and have never even done an invert. Fist size, knee size, and shoulder size along with height I guess will often dictate which technique to go with. Regardless of technique, being in good cardiovascular shape is a must (and definitely a weak link in my game). I guess it's no wonder there is such a controversy in grades. Off to Vedauwoo...
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2019 - 08:19am PT
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Offwidth is generally a difficult discipline to master because it is so unnatural.
Only select few are naturally drawn to it.
Most climbers try to steer clear of it or try to go around it.
Very select few actually seek it out ......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2019 - 08:25am PT
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eeyonkee, I guess that if you had three techniques you didn’t need my favorite - the thrash.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 11, 2019 - 11:27am PT
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I think I could find at least a dozen different things I do with my hands between .4 and 1 Camalots, and that's just my hands. I would expect that to expand as I improve. I'm not the best there is at it. I still use tape and get gobies anyway. Climbing is a technical sport. OW is the same.
I don't think it's any more than the obvious - OW is generally unpleasant physical pig wrestling, and it's a minority of naturally available climbing.
Being able to do them well ought to imply a high level of well roundedness and mastery of all that is climbable and I think this has been the traditional perception and reality - until recently.
However, if it's all you do, to the extent you can't even sink a handjam and throw for a LB jug - coupled with some wildly inflated grades - then it really seems to me the draw is that this overall mastery of sport is implied - all the recognition, less the talent and hard work - what better draw for the ego?
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Ballo
Trad climber
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May 11, 2019 - 12:41pm PT
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Offwidth is awesome because it demonstrates mastery of a difficult skill. Once I led a 5.11 OW in the creek and some small chick followed it, but she did it so damned smooth I was slack-jawed.
If your ego is offended by people good at that thing, maybe you should get better or just celebrate their abilities. I never got offended at Michael Jordan dunking basketballs.
With regards to the climbing drama, isn't this sh#t getting kinda old? People get offended when I'm honest about grades, but honestly maybe people shouldn't get offended by opinions. If someone misses a reachable hold on a face climb and the grade is soft as a result....who cares?
Shut up and climb
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 12, 2019 - 04:49am PT
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Well said Mei!
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 12, 2019 - 07:10am PT
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+1 Mei. My wife is 5'3" with tiny hands. A pretty sinker hand jam for me is a rattly fist for her. I can chimney where she cannot make the span and must do something completely different. Size matters--A LOT. On one sporto rig at City of Rocks, what was about 5.8 for me was probably 10+ or harder for her. She eventually gave up and grabbed the draw. For tall (or just taller than small women) "manly men," it's really, really hard to imagine what being short(er) is like. Next time you tall dudes latch a jug, imagine being 8 or 10 inches shy of that reach. Heh.
BAd
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 12, 2019 - 07:21am PT
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Yeah, I liked Mei's post, too.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2019 - 07:44am PT
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Randall doing that reach around butchered Kill Artist.
Groping her from behind like that and avoiding her head on and then running away saying she's not up to par,
after all that training in his basement .....
:-)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 12, 2019 - 08:13am PT
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That move does not appear reachy in the least. 4' - give me a break - for a supposed 13+ climber that's a joke, a non issue, something beyond stupid to even bring up in conversation. Worst case it appears you'd add a couple slaps lower, something short climbers tend to get really good at, and there's no way such a thing would even add a letter. It's obvious the shot was intended to squash such non-sense, but apparently there's only so much a guy can do to present the obvious to the clueless.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 12, 2019 - 10:15am PT
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And yet it clearly shows Multiple lines😎. Case closed,
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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May 12, 2019 - 10:31am PT
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Why do people climb? “Because it’s there”.
Why was the alternate sequence utilized?
Because it was there.
Path of least resistance dictates grade.
A good number of firsts I’ve done over the years have been downgraded by taller climbers using alternate sequences. It may have been discouraging but I never felt like it detracted from what I achieved. It just, “was”.
Two cents.
That said, calling out other opinions as clueless is arrogant projection.
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spectreman
Trad climber
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May 12, 2019 - 10:37am PT
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What JLP said. Tom is not stretched out in any sense of the word in that photo. It's 4 feet across. (I know photos can be deceiving so I'll just make the one comment and then shut up about it)
And, FWIW, I have no dog in this fight and I've really enjoyed Pam's videos and I appreciate her obvious skill and talent.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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May 12, 2019 - 04:54pm PT
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where I would hang a 12lbs sandbag from my harness and go as slow as I could.
That’s how I feel on 5.9 slab sometimes. I sure wish slab climbing was as manly as Offwidthing because that’s all we really have around Fresno. I don’t think I have actually ever hand stacked in my life. And I feel empty because of it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 12, 2019 - 05:03pm PT
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Last I heard Yosemite was pretty close to Fresno...although the tourist traffic makes it seem pretty far.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 12, 2019 - 06:43pm PT
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I sure wish slab climbing was as manly as Offwidthing
Hmmm... let's think about this.
Grunting loudly while you push huge cams up to keep pro above your head = manly
Whimpering because your last pro is 50 ft below, and you can't decide which crystal to smear on next = wussy
Is that it?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 12, 2019 - 07:07pm PT
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Jaybro, I sent you a PM. I don't know if that subsystem works on the Taco Stand anymore.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 12, 2019 - 07:46pm PT
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I’ll look. Are you fb IM?
Don’t see anything
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 12, 2019 - 07:47pm PT
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No, I despise and never use FB. I sent you my email address.
Thanks!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 12, 2019 - 07:54pm PT
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Check your email
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 12, 2019 - 08:03pm PT
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Got it. Thanks!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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May 13, 2019 - 08:58am PT
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Ooooooh what are you guys planning?
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WBraun
climber
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May 13, 2019 - 09:02am PT
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They are planning their manifesto of narrow consciousness translated into WIDE .....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 13, 2019 - 09:40am PT
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^^^ LOL
That's one of your best lines ever. :-)
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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May 13, 2019 - 06:53pm PT
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That is a good one
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HeschMonster
Trad climber
Morro Bay
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May 16, 2019 - 09:50am PT
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I think it is not fair...and it is downright insulting and condescending to claim that a move that required his full 6'+ wing span ( see image https://cdn-uploads.mountainproject.com/forum/106196.jpg ) would work for someone of a 4ft index. Sure, he can argue that his arms and chest were not completely flat against the rock, but it does not take a pro to know that you need at least some flex in your span when climbing a fridge. He looked quite strained to me in that picture.
...I'm just calling out injustice as I see it.
I can't help but notice that Tom's L arm seems to be buried in a jam, putting his L elbow at the edge of the block. Were he to be fridging the block, it would barely be wide enough to compress. Seems to be 48" *at the most*.
I'll certainly agree he looks strained but i'm not sure this rises to the level of an injustice. Me thinks the meaning of words has certainly adjusted to suit modern "correctness," whatever that is. (Mei, no slight towards you, rather commentary of modern societal reactivity, at large).
full disclosure, I've equal respect for the fact that both FA and SA made it up the climb clean, simple as that. Oddly, I don't feel the need to denigrate either party, just happy for both of them to climb something that I never will.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 18, 2019 - 06:50am PT
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Congrats to two teams on two different routes
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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May 18, 2019 - 09:00am PT
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Trees are hard to climb too.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 18, 2019 - 04:25pm PT
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they should be sought after classics that many people would enjoy, not overhyped monuments for attention seeking behavior in Long Canyon.
The problem with this is, someone has decided how the whole world is to approach a given climb, according to the tastes of someone coming along after the FA. The FA has always been the team who decides the style of how something is done. You can squak all you want about how he or she did their business, but chopping bolts and enforcing your ethic on others is a pretty bold step, because it opens other routes up for "revision" should they not reflect the given ethic or personality style favored by the revisionist. What's more, because these things always go public, what's often the case is that a rock policeman resents the attention others, considered unworthy, are getting, which should go to someone more deserving, humbler, someone who fits their idealized profile of who we should be. Not saying this is the case here, but this is a slippery slope - of that we may be sure.
I sense in this case that personality clashes were a large part of the whole debacle, a kind of we versus them vendetta. Perhaps someone only wanted to recast a couple routes in a form more in keeping to their personal style. I don't know. For me, back when I was a relevant, active climber, I made many early repeats on routes I would have engineered differently (almost always with less bolts), but was never up to putting all the brutal and expensive work in to retooling an existing route when I could be out there doing other new ones. My sense of this is there are dwindling new routes to do in this area, and only so much notoriety and bragging rights (even of the humble kind) left as well. I suspect once that enters the equation, this is what happens. It reminds me of political conflicts, when a group or individual decides that they have the moral authority to impose their will on a sovereign people. What makes this tricky is the revisions mentioned were the very things I thought about per the routes that offended me, and I didn't follow through on moral grounds, but because I was interested in other things.
Sorta sad to see.
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