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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
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I've been told for decades that the FA owns the route and can do what they want with it including authorizing somebody else to retro-bolt.
I have no problem with the FA making changes to their route within a reasonable time frame, but once a route has seen hundreds if not thousands of ascents as is, then I don't think the FA has any right to 'approve' retrobolting and doing so is a pussy move as far as I'm concerned.
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WBraun
climber
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America is NOT a civil society.
It only masquerades itself as such.
It's a violent warmongering bully all over the planet and even in its own home country .....
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mpreiss
Mountain climber
WA
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I really hope the government gets involved to stop this
I am not a gun toting libertarian, but that statement scares me I never thought I would say it Jon but its obvious the newer climbers cannot self regulate themselves
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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I have no problem with the FA making changes to their route within a reasonable time frame, but once a route has seen hundreds if not thousands of ascents as is, then I don't think the FA has any right to 'approve' retrobolting and doing so is a pussy move as far as I'm concerned.
I like how your FA ethics change to suit your current mindset.
Are you upset about this now?
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bootysatva
Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
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Toprope if you want safety.
Quit dumbing things down for the weakest of us.
Your still probably gonna die from being stupid.
On site ground up leading and drilling from stances is art. The rest is construction work.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 12:27am PT
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I like how your FA ethics change to suit your current mindset.
Not a single thing has changed about my thoughts on FAs or FA ethics in forty-four years. Yeah, not happy at all about the retrobolting of Giant City. And retrobolting that particular route without even the courtesy of asking was a total dick move by absolutely everyone involved.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 09:51am PT
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It is self-centered to demand that nobody change your route.
Well, that would be total bullsh#t.
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Trump
climber
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Self-centered: human, fittest survival of the fittest mentality, so far. (An advanced example would be lying to ourselves and other people about our own awesome self-sacrificing altruism in order to gain the social benefits of other people believing that about us, while blaming other people for being self-centered. Turns out I’m really good at that!)
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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I have no problem with the FA making changes to their route within a reasonable time frame, but once a route has seen hundreds if not thousands of ascents as is, then I don't think the FA has any right to 'approve' retrobolting and doing so is a pussy move as far as I'm concerned.
Absolutely.
The entire concept of changing fixed protection on an established climb is to address legitimate concerns that:
1. The route was poorly protected on the FA (in light of the grade, etc.);
2. Fixed protection was placed in less than ideal spots; or
3. Fixed protection is/was not very good and needs upgrading (e.g., fixed pin to a bolt).
Once a climb has been repeated by hundreds or more people, it cannot be reasonably asserted that the route needs to be made safe.
Just as the technical grade of a climb is a subjective measure that is established by a consensus, whether a climb is reasonably safe is similarly established by it being repeated by lots and lots of people.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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On the N Ridge of Notch Dome I put up a 5 pitch 5.7 with the potential to deck from the second pitch.
It was repeated a handful of times, mostly by me.
Finally I decided to install one bolt. The phucking drill died. I lowered it to the ground and then ran it out again, but "Ahl be buk".
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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It is self centered to demand that nobody change your route.
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This starts with a false assumption - that's it an individual who demands that you never change their route.
In fact tradition has honored the practice of not altering a route after it's been established, and it's selfish of any individual to shine the tradition and change a given route to your liking.
In most cases this occurs because someone is scared of the consequences of trying a route they are not skilled enough to dick, as is, appealing to "safely" as a justification. This derives from sport climbing, where most everything is comparatively safe, then trying to generalize this to the outdoor arena, where security was never the gold standard we are obliged to meet - in the name of publicly safety. No one will think any less of you, though you have every reason to think less of yourself if you dumb down an existing route.
Adventure climbing was never designed for everybody. Those that think it should be are according themselves an entitlement that the rock, and tradition, never promised. No need to change the rules, or the route. Jump on another of the 4,000 routes out at Josh that don't shiver your timbers. No one will think any less of you, though you have ever reason to think less of yourself if you dumb down an existing route.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Not a single thing has changed about my thoughts on FAs or FA ethics in forty-four years. Yeah, not happy at all about the retrobolting of Giant City. And retrobolting that particular route without even the courtesy of asking was a total dick move by absolutely everyone involved.
Sorry your top rope first ascent didn't give you ultimate FA ownership in the eyes of the locals.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 03:42pm PT
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Actually, the park didn't allow bolting in the park and we were completely LNT so we didn't and that's how the routes were for forty years. So the fact they managed to talk the current park management who doesn't know squat about climbing into retrobolting the place is simply unfortunate. That they retrobolted that route after being asked to leave it unbolted as the sole representative of the tradition in the park is a complete dick move by all involved.
And the truth of the matter is that dogging your way up those overhanging routes is a complete pussy deal compared to getting up them on TR where you are either figuring out the moves while actually climbing or flying. Dogging up them? Total pussy deal.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Actually, the park didn't allow bolting in the park and we were completely LNT so we didn't. But, the truth of the matter is dogging your way up those overhangs is a complete pussy deal compared to doing them on TR where you're either figuring out the moves while actually climbing or you're flying. Dogging up them? Total pussy deal.
It looks like it is only overhanging for the first two bolts. Maybe not a big deal like you think it is?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 03:47pm PT
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It looks like you're completely clueless then if that's what you think.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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I'm sorry you're upset. Why don't you talk about your feelings some more?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 03:50pm PT
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Sorry, I never share with dicks.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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It looks like you're completely clueless then if that's what you think.
Perhaps you can humor me and explain how someone can setup a top rope with the anchor bolts without using the now fragile cliff top?
Without those bolts, that climb can't be climbed on top rope. Maybe that's what you want maybe not, but it certainly looks one way.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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And the truth of the matter is that dogging your way up those overhanging routes is a complete pussy deal compared to getting up them on TR where you are either figuring out the moves while actually climbing or flying. Dogging up them? Total pussy deal.
Sorry, I never share with dicks.
Sounds like someone needs to get laid. Have you tried Viagra or Cialis?
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