From MP - JOSHUA TREE: THE BOLTING PRESSURE COOKER

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Highdesertman

Trad climber
jtree ca
Mar 14, 2018 - 04:13pm PT
I got no subbies and I'm not making up any stories. The Lucky Boy area has allways meant a lot to me over the years. I'm one of those people who clean up any garbage I see so while I did make a bit of a rant about being followed out there I have way to much respect for that area and rock in general to trash it like that. It makes no sense that if I had of done that I would then post a picture but deny it. I posted a picture because I am amazed that somebody would do this. All of my above posts are true I've never harmed a bolt or a hanger. The other route out there is untouched by the way. And I am as curious as any one as to who might have done that.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Mar 14, 2018 - 04:36pm PT
Jefe, metaphysically, no, first strike warfare being what it is in the psyche of the victims.

But I've patched granite holes and rhyolitic tuff using native sand/dirt, where I would challenge anyone to be able to find the original offending hole. To all but the driller and the patcher, it would be restored.

Immaculate Restoration, Inc. :)

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 14, 2018 - 04:38pm PT
personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.
-----


This is really an issue of what people feel are their inherent rights per climbing. Except, as Kelly Cordes once said, no one has an inherent "right" to stand on any summit. So when a given route is not safe enough for you, you can't logically say you have the right to change it to your satisfaction. You are not being done out of (safetly) something (rights) which Nature did not provide you to begin with.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 14, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
So when a given route is not safe enough for you, you can't logically say you have the right to change it to your satisfaction.

Yet we do that all the time. Place bolts on blank faces, leave pin scars, clean cracks of vegetation, etc.
Ojai Alex

Trad climber
Ojai, CA
Mar 14, 2018 - 05:06pm PT
^^^
Thats some proper gaslighting there, Gary.
To conflate sport routes with bold lines is either not totally honest or grossly misunderstanding the two approaches.

I figured xCon was trolling when he said that about bold routes, but Largoís response has me thinking maybe Im wrong.

Its a bit like preaching to the choir here in the echochamber, but nevertheless...the sanitization of the sport, in the name of safety, errodes centuries of mountain culture. Itís the culture, history, and tradition that I love about the sport, and thatís why its so disheartening to see these kinds of attitudes.

Iíve watched the same attitude result in bolted cracks, grid bolted wilderness, etc. But in this age of opinions, resolution seems dim and distant. And Ďmight makes rightí.

In which case, best quit the talkiní and commence the chalkiní. Every new traditional FA is perhaps a kind of service. Not only to our selfish desires for fun and adventure. But also to climbers passed and the sport itself.

Iíll be over here doing my part on these 5.8ís.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Mar 14, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
Its OK to have dangerous routes as long as the hazards are common knowledge.
If people know what they are getting into, no problem.
Brian Greenwood wrote about a new (mainly rock) route on the North Face of Kitchener
mainly to make sure no one ever went up there again!
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Mar 14, 2018 - 07:59pm PT
Metaphysically lol.

zardoz

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, CO
Mar 15, 2018 - 01:56am PT
But those jobs are for you save the world and rock types, lol.

Save-the-rock-type-guys. Ha ha ha. I love that. It's definitely some kind of guy.

I think it's more of a you-did-something-I-didn't-like guy. You know that guy? He doesn't like anything. What are we going to do about those kinds of guys? Can we get them some sort of gift card to Cracker Barrel or something? There's just no pleasing them.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 15, 2018 - 11:25am PT
So when a given route is not safe enough for you, you can't logically say you have the right to change it to your satisfaction.

Yet we do that all the time. Place bolts on blank faces, leave pin scars, clean cracks of vegetation, etc


Another misconception. Bolting blank rock etc. is something done BEFORE a route is established. What that guy was talking about is altering a route AFTER it is established, and that the route is a kind of statement that anyone has the right to amend to their own satisfaction and standards. When anyone does this it is because they feel they have the right to do so, and come up with all kinds of reasons to avoid doing the route on the route's own terms. Strangely, people like this take issue that the FA folks are dictating to them how to climb, and that they don't have the right to do so.

A route is a kind of stage on which people have experiences. A route gets a reputation by dint of the experiences people have on it. When someone assigns to themselves the right to change the stage because they don't want to the experiences offered thereon, the route, as a distinctive piece of work, is rendered meaningless, the "meaning" here being the experience we have when doing the route as it was first imagined and executed.

Fact is, not everyone is going to fancy every experience on every stage. Likewise, not everyone belongs on every stage. You get to the Olympics, for example, because you have proven to the world that you have what it takes to compete in the events as they are. You don't change the rules of the sports to fit your level of courage and acumen. People who do so are called cheaters. The notion that you are cheating for the good and safety of mankind is simply a justification to crash the stage with your own agenda.

There are many routes out there that are simply not for me. That's not the fault of the route.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 15, 2018 - 12:07pm PT
^^^^^^

Thank you Largo.
Condorman

Trad climber
Garden Grove, CA
Apr 2, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
Funny this very topic would come up. I took someone out to JT Saturday that had never seen it. She wasn't a climber, so I was explaining a lot to her, and showing her some of the routes we had done, and explained the notorious "1st bolt" of many JT climbs, as well as the controversy of people becoming upset because of the 'defacing' due to too many bolts, when the climbers, who know where they are, often have a hard time finding them.

We were over at Cap rock, looking at a 10b route where the first bolt was about 20' up. I recall, as a beginner climber, being a tad put out that those first bolts were too high, but even back then, I realized thek logic of doing that. Make that first clip easy to get to, and you'll have novices getting in over their heads, finding trouble higher up where they'll really get hurt. Much better to weed them out from the desert floor. If you don't like it, you probably don't belong on that route and move on. Don't expect the climbing world to cater to the entitled like everything else in life. One thing that seemed to escape the climbing world was also the "sue" mentality. Fortunately, for the most part, climbers have taken responsibility for their actions.

If you're new to climbing and are of the entitled mentality, please leave our world. We've managed to keep it pretty simple and preserved as much of the old school attractiveness of it for this long. Please don't come in and ruin our Shangri-La if you don't understand it.
Trump

climber
Apr 2, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
Fact is, we have a right to believe that a route is a stage on which people have experiences, if thatís the way we roll. We each have the right to say what everyone elseís rights are, I guess.

I heard ďpersonallyĒ and figured it was his opinion, and not him pontificating. But we cheaters believe whatever suits our fancy about the differences between us and them, between what we believe is a right and what other people believe is a right.

Save the stage on which we have our experiences people! We have the best biglyest experiences!
geiger

Trad climber
Doylestown pa
Apr 2, 2018 - 04:42pm PT
A few climbers took it upon themselves to bolt a climb that is a classic top rope and lead by few. A tree anchor died off and they decided to not only fill in that gap but added a few extra. They had checked with the FA climber, who lives out of country and he said to go for it. The bottom line is a few of the locals resented the intrusion and chopped the bolts. The bottom line in discussion is that if there is an established route and it needs bolt replaced, the local climbers will handle it. If it is bolted to make it "safer" it is degrading the climb. Eventually someone will find a reason to bolt every trad climb to make it "safer". Really changes the game, you should build the skills, evaluate the risk and then decide to climb it the was the FA did.

mpreiss

Mountain climber
WA
Apr 2, 2018 - 09:01pm PT
I've never been to J-tree but here in the cascades "route developers" are very slowly changing the local ethics in the cascades. An ethic and style that has been (with a very few exceptions)for over a hundred years. But they will not be denied too achieve route-setting glory by rape bolting mountain ridges/faces, and some with natural protection available.But guess what? their coming! their coming by the dozens with their sticky shoes and quickdraws to safely climb these shopping mall routes. Of course they are 98.8% guaranteed to succeed in safely getting up the route. After IB I warned that this would happen and unfortunately I really hope the government gets involved to stop this, because these new breed gym climbers have very little respect for history or the style that routes go up.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 2, 2018 - 09:58pm PT
I really hope the government gets involved to stop this

I am not a gun toting libertarian, but that statement scares me.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Apr 3, 2018 - 11:29am PT
They had checked with the FA climber, who lives out of country and he said to go for it. The bottom line is a few of the locals resented the intrusion and chopped the bolts. The bottom line in discussion is that if there is an established route and it needs bolt replaced, the local climbers will handle it. If it is bolted to make it "safer" it is degrading the climb. Eventually someone will find a reason to bolt every trad climb to make it "safer". Really changes the game, you should build the skills, evaluate the risk and then decide to climb it the was the FA did.

Wow, what, you don't say???

I've been told for decades that the FA owns the route and can do what they want with it including authorizing somebody else to retro bolt.

But now you are telling me that the rights of the locals outweigh the rights of the FA.

Cognitive dissonance strikes deep.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
I've been told for decades that the FA owns the route and can do what they want with it including authorizing somebody else to retro-bolt.

I have no problem with the FA making changes to their route within a reasonable time frame, but once a route has seen hundreds if not thousands of ascents as is, then I don't think the FA has any right to 'approve' retrobolting and doing so is a pussy move as far as I'm concerned.
WBraun

climber
Apr 3, 2018 - 01:24pm PT
America is NOT a civil society.

It only masquerades itself as such.

It's a violent warmongering bully all over the planet and even in its own home country .....
mpreiss

Mountain climber
WA
Apr 3, 2018 - 03:44pm PT
I really hope the government gets involved to stop this
I am not a gun toting libertarian, but that statement scares me
I never thought I would say it Jon but its obvious the newer climbers cannot self regulate themselves
RURP_Belay

Big Wall climber
Bitter end of a bad anchor
Apr 3, 2018 - 03:51pm PT
This all started with that damnable bolt on Double Cross!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2104475/The-New-Bolt-on-Double-Cross

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