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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 12, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
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Seems non-controversial. Joshua Tree has many top down bolts. Then again I may be out of touch with the % of routes going in ground up vs. top down since I'm not down there much any more.
Top down if done right, like these guys, takes time when hand drilling.
Though with sufficient time lapse, routes will continue to get concentrated by the road as a result.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 12, 2018 - 06:05pm PT
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I thought route developers where what they called those guys in the gym?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 12, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
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That's some funny sh#t.
Joshua Tree is known for its surreal beauty, cartoonish blobs of granite, sand-bagged old-school ratings, and run-out…
Imagine for a moment: You are on steep featureless slab, very little, if any protection is placed below you, your feet hang tenuously onto the rock. Then you let go with your hands, grab a hand-cranked drill, and slowly begin drilling.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 12, 2018 - 07:12pm PT
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Oh sh*t don't feed the troll...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
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Personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.
Really? Drill the risk out of climbing? How modern. So we really are on track to eventually retrobolt sport climbs that don't comport with Planet Granite bolt spacing. Good to know.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Mar 12, 2018 - 08:03pm PT
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//personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.
established lines need to be remediated while decents modified or eliminated with increased lower off anchors out of respect for the flora and fauna//
Well then stay away from my crag. Please.
Arne
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 12, 2018 - 08:06pm PT
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Maybe Sail Away should have the original down climb instead of weeny bolts at the top
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 12, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
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id like to hear a discussion amongs developers whove had a climber die leading a route theyd established
I shouldn't feed the troll, I know, but on the tiny chance that this is a real question, I'll answer.
A climber died on Vertical Vee, a route I established at the Riverside Quarry. It made the local papers. I did not know the man.
Both in our guidebook and the recent guide, as well as obvious to any climber just looking at the route, it is apparent that there is unprotected 5.7/5.8 to the start of an aid crack, and the first placement is not good (A3ish). If that placement blows, you fall 25+ tumbling feet onto talus.
You make the choice to take that risk, or you don't do the route. He chose, the placement failed, and he died.
All death is tragic, and I don't say that tritely. But "climbing" takes place within a wide spectrum of risk factors. The risks in this case were flat-out obvious to any even minimally-competent climber, particularly an aid climber. So, this was an intentional choice that, tragically, had the personally-ultimate consequence.
But the idea that all climbing should be rendered risk-free is flat-out absurd. That's not climbing; it's more like gymnastics. And high-grade gymnastics even comes with its own set of risks.
There is no eliminating risks from life or making climbs "not dangerous." And it will be a sad day if some group (climbers, the government, etc.) goes on a campaign to "eliminate risk" from all our activities, as if that could even be done! Living, particularly excelling, is a matter of calculated risk. Sometimes your choices bite, and some choices bite harder than others. Such is life (and death).
Some climbers seek risk, and their experience should not be dumbed down to the lowest common-denominator. There are countless climbs spanning the entire range of risk; there are more than enough casual climbs for those that just want to "have fun" with little risk. I suggest: Leave some alone for those that seek risk; there are plenty of established routes to go around.
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TLP
climber
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Mar 12, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
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Great post, perfectly written. I couldn't agree more. I've done plenty of R and X routes; and there are plenty of those that I'll never attempt, but I vehemently disagree they should be retrobolted more closely. It's essential for the healthy human spirit to know that there is something beyond your own ability and imagination.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 12, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
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Ban bolting and only criminals will bolt.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 12, 2018 - 09:29pm PT
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1.) The evidence shows that no matter how “safe” you make a route some folks will find a way to get killed on it. Then we have to hear how experienced he or she was.
2.) The list of good rock climbers getting killed on serious routes is shorter than the list of lesser climbers blowing it on well protected climbs.
3.) So the only thing you really want is for the masses to be able to “do” routes which are, in their original concept, over their heads. But aren’t there enough routes of various styles to go around?
Or maybe you’re just predicting the future, not advocating for what you say?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Mar 12, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
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^^^
that guy's hand is only 3/8 inch wide !
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 13, 2018 - 12:23am PT
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It's essential for the healthy human spirit to know that there is something beyond your own ability and imagination.
Spot on.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Mar 13, 2018 - 12:33am PT
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that guy's hand is only 3/8 inch wide !
A sighting of The Donald?
Hey, a perfect way to take the risk out of climbing: stay home!
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Mar 13, 2018 - 08:02am PT
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Happened only a few months ago.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 13, 2018 - 10:53am PT
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Whatchya gonna drill in Death Valley, yer tombstone?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 13, 2018 - 11:28am PT
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X-con your example of Coyote in the Desert is flawed. Old fixed pins should be maintained, usually by placing a bolt in their place. This is not the same as adding bolts to an established route. Blanketty Blank at Tahquitz is a good example.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Mar 13, 2018 - 11:46am PT
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ZZZZzz x100000000
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 13, 2018 - 01:20pm PT
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Word on the street is some dude called Electric Dino flattened the hangers out there (Queen Mt. parking boulders?) I don't know the accused guy or the area, but, I agree that flattening is bad form and removal and patching is the preferred method if you have that particular burr under your saddle.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 13, 2018 - 01:40pm PT
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I agree that flattening is bad form and removal and patching is the preferred method if you have that particular burr under your saddle.
Yep. Especially since those are 5 piece powers, easy as piss to remove. Those don't really look like hammer strikes to me, maybe a rock in his hand?
On the op's subject, I really doubt anyone has died following one of my routes. Leading could be another story. I've never heard of a lethal fall on one, but maybe the occasional humiliation ;-)
On one occasion I did go back and add two bolts to a pitch of mine up at Courtright. The FA was a death defying stunt. A reasonably protected 5.12 crux was followed by a 5.11+X bit up at the top. The following year I walked up there with some friends to have a look at my handiwork. They were appalled. Luckily I had a reliable witness, as Herb Laeger challenged my veracity as to having actually done it. I rapped in two bolts at the top and led it. Now it's an R grade.
Does X-Con think that's still too risky? FWIW most climbers who would try this rig will end up hanging safely from the first bolt, and if they do get higher up there are no longer any ground-falls. Of course that's really in your belayer's hands.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 13, 2018 - 01:41pm PT
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Retro bolting is lame.
Go find something on your own before you wreck someone’s climb forever.
Pounding hangers over is the most chicken sh#t thing ever.
But whatever!
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Murf
climber
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Mar 13, 2018 - 02:30pm PT
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The pounded hanger is on a new route, not a retro. The first bolt on the adjacent route was also pounded flat. Looking a the hangers, it was done by a rock, and only to the first bolt.
Since it was Dino (who appears to be Highwayman or one of his associates) complaining earlier about these specific routes, it seems likely he's the smasher in question.
Having done both of the routes, they were high quality (3 of 5 stars IMO) with good length (such as it goes at Josh).
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Mar 13, 2018 - 03:02pm PT
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I would hardly have posted a picture of something that like that if I had done it which I didn't. I also called one of the guys involved and assured him it was not my doing. I also thought a rock was involved at first but I think more so probably a hammer.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 13, 2018 - 03:07pm PT
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Who would be out there with a hammer, and why? Weird.
I take it you are Electric Dyno? Any ideas on who might have done it? The natives are restless...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Mar 13, 2018 - 03:27pm PT
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Back to the original post, I've largely come to the view that how the bolt got there is of far less importance than whether it should be there and whether it is in the right location.
Steeper and more difficult face climbing often precludes anything but rap bolting to adhere to these important objectives.
As to the advocacy for retro-bolting routes (making Climbing Safe For Everyone), I fully agree with most of the comments discrediting this proposition. And, a missing fixed pin is no different than a missing bolt, if you decide to "go for it" anyway, you assumed the risk if you pop.
IMO looks more like a rock was used than a hammer...
Whatever the case...
STOOPID move!!!..
Yup.
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Mar 13, 2018 - 03:27pm PT
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My friend and I were as astounded as anybody when we saw them which is why I took pictures. There was no broken or crumbled rock any where around the bolts and I searched all around the base and beyond and found no tossed used rock anywhere. This is simply something I personally would never do and I hate to think that anybody would think that i'm the sort of person who would do that. We kept asking each other , who would do that?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 13, 2018 - 03:58pm PT
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Why do so many climbers come from inbreeding?
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 13, 2018 - 06:28pm PT
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Who didn't see this coming? Anyway, it wasn't me that chopped em. Hell, I can't even spell Rok and I'd have utilized a hammer anyway. Here's something of interest I need to climb, longest 5.9 in the world or some such: http://www.climbing.com/places/flyboys-washingtons-18-pitch-5-9-sport-route/
Drool boyz, drool.
Jh, any interest in putting up a classic 8-9 pitch free route around here? There really isn't anything like this in the vicinity and this one will take craploads of work. Might need a few bolts :-) unless you appreciate groundfall potential....
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Mar 13, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
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Yes T Hocking that was me. A bit riled up I will admit. Don't miss the sincere part at the end and the fact my full name is there also. I'm also sincere now. That's why I called and said it wasent me. I know these guys we"ve climbed together in the past. I'm approaching 60 yrs old. I have never and i'm sure will never bend or chop a single bolt in my entire life.Lived here almost 15ys. I avoid this kind of thing allways. Not looking for any conflict in my life.I just happened to walk by only a week or less after it happened. Due to the angle of the climb I wouldn't be surprised if those two hangers would still be fine to use if they were bent back into the original position.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2018 - 06:47pm PT
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275 bolts, creating an 18-pitch route
It just doesn't get more sad or embarrassing. Yet another tumor as the cancer spreads in the North Cascades.
Jh, any interest in putting up a classic 8-9 pitch free route around here? There really isn't anything like this in the vicinity and this one will take craploads of work. Might need a few bolts :-) unless you appreciate groundfall potential....
Where did you have in mind?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 13, 2018 - 06:49pm PT
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Five people that I know of have died on routes I put up. Not to bad when you consider that most of the Zion wall traffic is on them.
None died from running it out, but some of my routes put up on lead DO have runouts that I would generally like to see preserved.
MANY of my routes have been retrobolted and, of course, they always get blamed on me.
Content yourself that many young climbers will never be able to appreciate what pioneering involves.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 13, 2018 - 06:59pm PT
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A stupid ranger in Valley of Fire used a hacksaw to cut off the eye of a drilled angle. Really scarred up the rock on both sides! From below you couldn't see there was no eye.
Didn't tell him that I could just tie it off for good pro.
Can the flattened hanger be threaded or is it too flat and flush?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2018 - 07:03pm PT
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Can the flattened hanger be threaded?
That would require someone owning a sling.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 13, 2018 - 07:11pm PT
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That would require someone owning a sling.
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Murf
climber
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Mar 13, 2018 - 08:05pm PT
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Sorry Dino, I'm not buying it. The location and the people that know about the routes are very few. I can see the SBV episode now where Cube pontificates, "He didn't even have to balls to do it hisself".
Just 'cause your subbies did it and not you; can you say "Plausible Deniability"?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 14, 2018 - 09:24am PT
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I like to use wired stoppers on bent over hangers, stronger and much simpler than trying to get a runner through.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 14, 2018 - 09:36am PT
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^^^^^^^^. Touché! Nothin’ like some in depth Columbo analysis, eh? 🤡
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 14, 2018 - 09:53am PT
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Tempest in a teacup?
Perhaps the hangers could just be replaced by somebody who cares, and, voila! Solved. Perhaps?
My $0.02.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mar 14, 2018 - 12:05pm PT
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Bolts actually hold in that choss?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mar 14, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
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All this talk about flattening hangers- that it’s bad form, chicken shˇt, etc...
in many cases, yes.
But that method has its place.
Not saying this bolt, route, or area is or isn’t the place.
But that method has its place.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 14, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
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I don’t know Jefe. Seems like a lack of commitment to me. If someone is that offended, they should confront the FA team or finish the job.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 14, 2018 - 01:43pm PT
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Flattening hanger, generally, isn't restoring the rock to its original condition. So I don't see how it would be useful.
If it can go in, it can come out. But if it comes out, the reason and method should be about restoring it for a future ascent in better ethical approach or no ascent. Removal and restoration is a message of the clearest type, but without the apparent hypocritical baggage of leaving the offending bolt in place.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mar 14, 2018 - 02:55pm PT
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Munge- you can never restore the rock to its original condition.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2018 - 03:09pm PT
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Smashing over the hangers sends a different message that says the person is pissed and your ass is on the line if you keep it up.
And that line means your routes will keep getting erased.
But those jobs are for you save the world and rock types, lol.
What's mind blower ya all can't even save yourselves which far more important.
So go save yer rocks while yer whole world is being slaughtered all around ya .....
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Mar 14, 2018 - 04:13pm PT
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I got no subbies and I'm not making up any stories. The Lucky Boy area has allways meant a lot to me over the years. I'm one of those people who clean up any garbage I see so while I did make a bit of a rant about being followed out there I have way to much respect for that area and rock in general to trash it like that. It makes no sense that if I had of done that I would then post a picture but deny it. I posted a picture because I am amazed that somebody would do this. All of my above posts are true I've never harmed a bolt or a hanger. The other route out there is untouched by the way. And I am as curious as any one as to who might have done that.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 14, 2018 - 04:36pm PT
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Jefe, metaphysically, no, first strike warfare being what it is in the psyche of the victims.
But I've patched granite holes and rhyolitic tuff using native sand/dirt, where I would challenge anyone to be able to find the original offending hole. To all but the driller and the patcher, it would be restored.
Immaculate Restoration, Inc. :)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 14, 2018 - 04:38pm PT
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personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.
-----
This is really an issue of what people feel are their inherent rights per climbing. Except, as Kelly Cordes once said, no one has an inherent "right" to stand on any summit. So when a given route is not safe enough for you, you can't logically say you have the right to change it to your satisfaction. You are not being done out of (safetly) something (rights) which Nature did not provide you to begin with.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 14, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
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So when a given route is not safe enough for you, you can't logically say you have the right to change it to your satisfaction.
Yet we do that all the time. Place bolts on blank faces, leave pin scars, clean cracks of vegetation, etc.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 14, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
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Its OK to have dangerous routes as long as the hazards are common knowledge.
If people know what they are getting into, no problem.
Brian Greenwood wrote about a new (mainly rock) route on the North Face of Kitchener
mainly to make sure no one ever went up there again!
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mar 14, 2018 - 07:59pm PT
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Metaphysically lol.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 15, 2018 - 11:25am PT
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So when a given route is not safe enough for you, you can't logically say you have the right to change it to your satisfaction.
Yet we do that all the time. Place bolts on blank faces, leave pin scars, clean cracks of vegetation, etc
Another misconception. Bolting blank rock etc. is something done BEFORE a route is established. What that guy was talking about is altering a route AFTER it is established, and that the route is a kind of statement that anyone has the right to amend to their own satisfaction and standards. When anyone does this it is because they feel they have the right to do so, and come up with all kinds of reasons to avoid doing the route on the route's own terms. Strangely, people like this take issue that the FA folks are dictating to them how to climb, and that they don't have the right to do so.
A route is a kind of stage on which people have experiences. A route gets a reputation by dint of the experiences people have on it. When someone assigns to themselves the right to change the stage because they don't want to the experiences offered thereon, the route, as a distinctive piece of work, is rendered meaningless, the "meaning" here being the experience we have when doing the route as it was first imagined and executed.
Fact is, not everyone is going to fancy every experience on every stage. Likewise, not everyone belongs on every stage. You get to the Olympics, for example, because you have proven to the world that you have what it takes to compete in the events as they are. You don't change the rules of the sports to fit your level of courage and acumen. People who do so are called cheaters. The notion that you are cheating for the good and safety of mankind is simply a justification to crash the stage with your own agenda.
There are many routes out there that are simply not for me. That's not the fault of the route.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 15, 2018 - 12:07pm PT
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^^^^^^
Thank you Largo.
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Condorman
Trad climber
Garden Grove, CA
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Funny this very topic would come up. I took someone out to JT Saturday that had never seen it. She wasn't a climber, so I was explaining a lot to her, and showing her some of the routes we had done, and explained the notorious "1st bolt" of many JT climbs, as well as the controversy of people becoming upset because of the 'defacing' due to too many bolts, when the climbers, who know where they are, often have a hard time finding them.
We were over at Cap rock, looking at a 10b route where the first bolt was about 20' up. I recall, as a beginner climber, being a tad put out that those first bolts were too high, but even back then, I realized thek logic of doing that. Make that first clip easy to get to, and you'll have novices getting in over their heads, finding trouble higher up where they'll really get hurt. Much better to weed them out from the desert floor. If you don't like it, you probably don't belong on that route and move on. Don't expect the climbing world to cater to the entitled like everything else in life. One thing that seemed to escape the climbing world was also the "sue" mentality. Fortunately, for the most part, climbers have taken responsibility for their actions.
If you're new to climbing and are of the entitled mentality, please leave our world. We've managed to keep it pretty simple and preserved as much of the old school attractiveness of it for this long. Please don't come in and ruin our Shangri-La if you don't understand it.
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Trump
climber
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Fact is, we have a right to believe that a route is a stage on which people have experiences, if that’s the way we roll. We each have the right to say what everyone else’s rights are, I guess.
I heard “personally” and figured it was his opinion, and not him pontificating. But we cheaters believe whatever suits our fancy about the differences between us and them, between what we believe is a right and what other people believe is a right.
Save the stage on which we have our experiences people! We have the best biglyest experiences!
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geiger
Trad climber
Doylestown pa
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A few climbers took it upon themselves to bolt a climb that is a classic top rope and lead by few. A tree anchor died off and they decided to not only fill in that gap but added a few extra. They had checked with the FA climber, who lives out of country and he said to go for it. The bottom line is a few of the locals resented the intrusion and chopped the bolts. The bottom line in discussion is that if there is an established route and it needs bolt replaced, the local climbers will handle it. If it is bolted to make it "safer" it is degrading the climb. Eventually someone will find a reason to bolt every trad climb to make it "safer". Really changes the game, you should build the skills, evaluate the risk and then decide to climb it the was the FA did.
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mpreiss
Mountain climber
WA
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I've never been to J-tree but here in the cascades "route developers" are very slowly changing the local ethics in the cascades. An ethic and style that has been (with a very few exceptions)for over a hundred years. But they will not be denied too achieve route-setting glory by rape bolting mountain ridges/faces, and some with natural protection available.But guess what? their coming! their coming by the dozens with their sticky shoes and quickdraws to safely climb these shopping mall routes. Of course they are 98.8% guaranteed to succeed in safely getting up the route. After IB I warned that this would happen and unfortunately I really hope the government gets involved to stop this, because these new breed gym climbers have very little respect for history or the style that routes go up.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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I really hope the government gets involved to stop this
I am not a gun toting libertarian, but that statement scares me.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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They had checked with the FA climber, who lives out of country and he said to go for it. The bottom line is a few of the locals resented the intrusion and chopped the bolts. The bottom line in discussion is that if there is an established route and it needs bolt replaced, the local climbers will handle it. If it is bolted to make it "safer" it is degrading the climb. Eventually someone will find a reason to bolt every trad climb to make it "safer". Really changes the game, you should build the skills, evaluate the risk and then decide to climb it the was the FA did.
Wow, what, you don't say???
I've been told for decades that the FA owns the route and can do what they want with it including authorizing somebody else to retro bolt.
But now you are telling me that the rights of the locals outweigh the rights of the FA.
Cognitive dissonance strikes deep.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
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I've been told for decades that the FA owns the route and can do what they want with it including authorizing somebody else to retro-bolt.
I have no problem with the FA making changes to their route within a reasonable time frame, but once a route has seen hundreds if not thousands of ascents as is, then I don't think the FA has any right to 'approve' retrobolting and doing so is a pussy move as far as I'm concerned.
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WBraun
climber
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America is NOT a civil society.
It only masquerades itself as such.
It's a violent warmongering bully all over the planet and even in its own home country .....
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mpreiss
Mountain climber
WA
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I really hope the government gets involved to stop this
I am not a gun toting libertarian, but that statement scares me I never thought I would say it Jon but its obvious the newer climbers cannot self regulate themselves
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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I have no problem with the FA making changes to their route within a reasonable time frame, but once a route has seen hundreds if not thousands of ascents as is, then I don't think the FA has any right to 'approve' retrobolting and doing so is a pussy move as far as I'm concerned.
I like how your FA ethics change to suit your current mindset.
Are you upset about this now?
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bootysatva
Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
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Toprope if you want safety.
Quit dumbing things down for the weakest of us.
Your still probably gonna die from being stupid.
On site ground up leading and drilling from stances is art. The rest is construction work.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 12:27am PT
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I like how your FA ethics change to suit your current mindset.
Not a single thing has changed about my thoughts on FAs or FA ethics in forty-four years. Yeah, not happy at all about the retrobolting of Giant City. And retrobolting that particular route without even the courtesy of asking was a total dick move by absolutely everyone involved.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 09:51am PT
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It is self-centered to demand that nobody change your route.
Well, that would be total bullsh#t.
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Trump
climber
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Self-centered: human, fittest survival of the fittest mentality, so far. (An advanced example would be lying to ourselves and other people about our own awesome self-sacrificing altruism in order to gain the social benefits of other people believing that about us, while blaming other people for being self-centered. Turns out I’m really good at that!)
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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I have no problem with the FA making changes to their route within a reasonable time frame, but once a route has seen hundreds if not thousands of ascents as is, then I don't think the FA has any right to 'approve' retrobolting and doing so is a pussy move as far as I'm concerned.
Absolutely.
The entire concept of changing fixed protection on an established climb is to address legitimate concerns that:
1. The route was poorly protected on the FA (in light of the grade, etc.);
2. Fixed protection was placed in less than ideal spots; or
3. Fixed protection is/was not very good and needs upgrading (e.g., fixed pin to a bolt).
Once a climb has been repeated by hundreds or more people, it cannot be reasonably asserted that the route needs to be made safe.
Just as the technical grade of a climb is a subjective measure that is established by a consensus, whether a climb is reasonably safe is similarly established by it being repeated by lots and lots of people.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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On the N Ridge of Notch Dome I put up a 5 pitch 5.7 with the potential to deck from the second pitch.
It was repeated a handful of times, mostly by me.
Finally I decided to install one bolt. The phucking drill died. I lowered it to the ground and then ran it out again, but "Ahl be buk".
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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It is self centered to demand that nobody change your route.
-
This starts with a false assumption - that's it an individual who demands that you never change their route.
In fact tradition has honored the practice of not altering a route after it's been established, and it's selfish of any individual to shine the tradition and change a given route to your liking.
In most cases this occurs because someone is scared of the consequences of trying a route they are not skilled enough to dick, as is, appealing to "safely" as a justification. This derives from sport climbing, where most everything is comparatively safe, then trying to generalize this to the outdoor arena, where security was never the gold standard we are obliged to meet - in the name of publicly safety. No one will think any less of you, though you have every reason to think less of yourself if you dumb down an existing route.
Adventure climbing was never designed for everybody. Those that think it should be are according themselves an entitlement that the rock, and tradition, never promised. No need to change the rules, or the route. Jump on another of the 4,000 routes out at Josh that don't shiver your timbers. No one will think any less of you, though you have ever reason to think less of yourself if you dumb down an existing route.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Not a single thing has changed about my thoughts on FAs or FA ethics in forty-four years. Yeah, not happy at all about the retrobolting of Giant City. And retrobolting that particular route without even the courtesy of asking was a total dick move by absolutely everyone involved.
Sorry your top rope first ascent didn't give you ultimate FA ownership in the eyes of the locals.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 03:42pm PT
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Actually, the park didn't allow bolting in the park and we were completely LNT so we didn't and that's how the routes were for forty years. So the fact they managed to talk the current park management who doesn't know squat about climbing into retrobolting the place is simply unfortunate. That they retrobolted that route after being asked to leave it unbolted as the sole representative of the tradition in the park is a complete dick move by all involved.
And the truth of the matter is that dogging your way up those overhanging routes is a complete pussy deal compared to getting up them on TR where you are either figuring out the moves while actually climbing or flying. Dogging up them? Total pussy deal.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Actually, the park didn't allow bolting in the park and we were completely LNT so we didn't. But, the truth of the matter is dogging your way up those overhangs is a complete pussy deal compared to doing them on TR where you're either figuring out the moves while actually climbing or you're flying. Dogging up them? Total pussy deal.
It looks like it is only overhanging for the first two bolts. Maybe not a big deal like you think it is?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 03:47pm PT
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It looks like you're completely clueless then if that's what you think.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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I'm sorry you're upset. Why don't you talk about your feelings some more?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 03:50pm PT
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Sorry, I never share with dicks.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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It looks like you're completely clueless then if that's what you think.
Perhaps you can humor me and explain how someone can setup a top rope with the anchor bolts without using the now fragile cliff top?
Without those bolts, that climb can't be climbed on top rope. Maybe that's what you want maybe not, but it certainly looks one way.
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jgfox
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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And the truth of the matter is that dogging your way up those overhanging routes is a complete pussy deal compared to getting up them on TR where you are either figuring out the moves while actually climbing or flying. Dogging up them? Total pussy deal.
Sorry, I never share with dicks.
Sounds like someone needs to get laid. Have you tried Viagra or Cialis?
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Tradiban
climber
Madison, WI
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Bolting Giant City for lead seems like a pretty good idea. Those cliffs aren't really made for TRing. There's only a few places where TR matters and Giant City aint one of them.
Bolting it actually made it harder so why the bitching if it's all about the "adventure". Is the "adventure" the part about slipping on dry leaves toward the edge on top?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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"Adventure" only makes sense in the context of how and where it is used. Context in this regards typically means tradition, and the rules - unofficial or otherwise - that apply.
For example, in the climbing world, a roped safety system has long been accepted as fair game. The rules of free climbing say we can use the gear/system for safety, but not for upward propulsion. Someone who does so is "cheating" if they frig on gear and call THAT free climbing.
"Adventure climbing" refers to many things, but for the ones repeating a so-called adventure route, the gold standard style is to start at the bottom and on-site the whole shebang, hand-placing gear for pro and belays. If at some point you are not up to climbing the route as is, and you physically alter it to reduce difficulty or mental challenge/risk, you are by definition, "cheating."
In the larger picture, the "adventure" is mostly found through encountering the unknown, where the outcome is never known beforehand. It also - like repeating an adventure route - demands that so far as we can, we embrace the environment as is, leaves and all, and we don't alter the terrain to make things easier or more convenient.
This concept is lost on some venturing to a place like Josh, expecting to find rap stations on top of every route, and are angered when they don't. This attitude is largely born from the gym, and seeks to transform climbing areas into vertical style theme parks fitted with "safe," E-ticket climbs. That's a sport climbing cliff. Great fun, but not the only venue.
Some argue that a first attempt team has no "right" to determine how they climb - so if a route is "dangerous," they have the right to change it. This goes against the spirit of adventure which says, basically, that you leave things alone.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2018 - 04:13pm PT
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Those cliffs aren't really made for TRing. There's only a few places where TR matters and Giant City aint one of them.
Well, you're 0 for 2 there.
Bolting it actually made it harder...
It actually makes is much, much easier so now you're 0 for 3.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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I think you all need to get off your asses and away from the net and get out and have some fun! Bolts or No Bolts Ground Up Or Top Down who cares.
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| Messages 1 - 84 of total 84 in this topic |
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