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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mar 14, 2018 - 12:05pm PT
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Bolts actually hold in that choss?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mar 14, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
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All this talk about flattening hangers- that it’s bad form, chicken sh¡t, etc...
in many cases, yes.
But that method has its place.
Not saying this bolt, route, or area is or isn’t the place.
But that method has its place.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 14, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
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I don’t know Jefe. Seems like a lack of commitment to me. If someone is that offended, they should confront the FA team or finish the job.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 14, 2018 - 01:43pm PT
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Flattening hanger, generally, isn't restoring the rock to its original condition. So I don't see how it would be useful.
If it can go in, it can come out. But if it comes out, the reason and method should be about restoring it for a future ascent in better ethical approach or no ascent. Removal and restoration is a message of the clearest type, but without the apparent hypocritical baggage of leaving the offending bolt in place.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mar 14, 2018 - 02:55pm PT
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Munge- you can never restore the rock to its original condition.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2018 - 03:09pm PT
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Smashing over the hangers sends a different message that says the person is pissed and your ass is on the line if you keep it up.
And that line means your routes will keep getting erased.
But those jobs are for you save the world and rock types, lol.
What's mind blower ya all can't even save yourselves which far more important.
So go save yer rocks while yer whole world is being slaughtered all around ya .....
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Mar 14, 2018 - 04:13pm PT
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I got no subbies and I'm not making up any stories. The Lucky Boy area has allways meant a lot to me over the years. I'm one of those people who clean up any garbage I see so while I did make a bit of a rant about being followed out there I have way to much respect for that area and rock in general to trash it like that. It makes no sense that if I had of done that I would then post a picture but deny it. I posted a picture because I am amazed that somebody would do this. All of my above posts are true I've never harmed a bolt or a hanger. The other route out there is untouched by the way. And I am as curious as any one as to who might have done that.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 14, 2018 - 04:36pm PT
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Jefe, metaphysically, no, first strike warfare being what it is in the psyche of the victims.
But I've patched granite holes and rhyolitic tuff using native sand/dirt, where I would challenge anyone to be able to find the original offending hole. To all but the driller and the patcher, it would be restored.
Immaculate Restoration, Inc. :)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 14, 2018 - 04:38pm PT
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personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.
-----
This is really an issue of what people feel are their inherent rights per climbing. Except, as Kelly Cordes once said, no one has an inherent "right" to stand on any summit. So when a given route is not safe enough for you, you can't logically say you have the right to change it to your satisfaction. You are not being done out of (safetly) something (rights) which Nature did not provide you to begin with.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 14, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
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So when a given route is not safe enough for you, you can't logically say you have the right to change it to your satisfaction.
Yet we do that all the time. Place bolts on blank faces, leave pin scars, clean cracks of vegetation, etc.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 14, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
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Its OK to have dangerous routes as long as the hazards are common knowledge.
If people know what they are getting into, no problem.
Brian Greenwood wrote about a new (mainly rock) route on the North Face of Kitchener
mainly to make sure no one ever went up there again!
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mar 14, 2018 - 07:59pm PT
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Metaphysically lol.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 15, 2018 - 11:25am PT
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So when a given route is not safe enough for you, you can't logically say you have the right to change it to your satisfaction.
Yet we do that all the time. Place bolts on blank faces, leave pin scars, clean cracks of vegetation, etc
Another misconception. Bolting blank rock etc. is something done BEFORE a route is established. What that guy was talking about is altering a route AFTER it is established, and that the route is a kind of statement that anyone has the right to amend to their own satisfaction and standards. When anyone does this it is because they feel they have the right to do so, and come up with all kinds of reasons to avoid doing the route on the route's own terms. Strangely, people like this take issue that the FA folks are dictating to them how to climb, and that they don't have the right to do so.
A route is a kind of stage on which people have experiences. A route gets a reputation by dint of the experiences people have on it. When someone assigns to themselves the right to change the stage because they don't want to the experiences offered thereon, the route, as a distinctive piece of work, is rendered meaningless, the "meaning" here being the experience we have when doing the route as it was first imagined and executed.
Fact is, not everyone is going to fancy every experience on every stage. Likewise, not everyone belongs on every stage. You get to the Olympics, for example, because you have proven to the world that you have what it takes to compete in the events as they are. You don't change the rules of the sports to fit your level of courage and acumen. People who do so are called cheaters. The notion that you are cheating for the good and safety of mankind is simply a justification to crash the stage with your own agenda.
There are many routes out there that are simply not for me. That's not the fault of the route.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 15, 2018 - 12:07pm PT
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^^^^^^
Thank you Largo.
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Condorman
Trad climber
Garden Grove, CA
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Funny this very topic would come up. I took someone out to JT Saturday that had never seen it. She wasn't a climber, so I was explaining a lot to her, and showing her some of the routes we had done, and explained the notorious "1st bolt" of many JT climbs, as well as the controversy of people becoming upset because of the 'defacing' due to too many bolts, when the climbers, who know where they are, often have a hard time finding them.
We were over at Cap rock, looking at a 10b route where the first bolt was about 20' up. I recall, as a beginner climber, being a tad put out that those first bolts were too high, but even back then, I realized thek logic of doing that. Make that first clip easy to get to, and you'll have novices getting in over their heads, finding trouble higher up where they'll really get hurt. Much better to weed them out from the desert floor. If you don't like it, you probably don't belong on that route and move on. Don't expect the climbing world to cater to the entitled like everything else in life. One thing that seemed to escape the climbing world was also the "sue" mentality. Fortunately, for the most part, climbers have taken responsibility for their actions.
If you're new to climbing and are of the entitled mentality, please leave our world. We've managed to keep it pretty simple and preserved as much of the old school attractiveness of it for this long. Please don't come in and ruin our Shangri-La if you don't understand it.
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Trump
climber
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Fact is, we have a right to believe that a route is a stage on which people have experiences, if that’s the way we roll. We each have the right to say what everyone else’s rights are, I guess.
I heard “personally” and figured it was his opinion, and not him pontificating. But we cheaters believe whatever suits our fancy about the differences between us and them, between what we believe is a right and what other people believe is a right.
Save the stage on which we have our experiences people! We have the best biglyest experiences!
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geiger
Trad climber
Doylestown pa
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A few climbers took it upon themselves to bolt a climb that is a classic top rope and lead by few. A tree anchor died off and they decided to not only fill in that gap but added a few extra. They had checked with the FA climber, who lives out of country and he said to go for it. The bottom line is a few of the locals resented the intrusion and chopped the bolts. The bottom line in discussion is that if there is an established route and it needs bolt replaced, the local climbers will handle it. If it is bolted to make it "safer" it is degrading the climb. Eventually someone will find a reason to bolt every trad climb to make it "safer". Really changes the game, you should build the skills, evaluate the risk and then decide to climb it the was the FA did.
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mpreiss
Mountain climber
WA
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I've never been to J-tree but here in the cascades "route developers" are very slowly changing the local ethics in the cascades. An ethic and style that has been (with a very few exceptions)for over a hundred years. But they will not be denied too achieve route-setting glory by rape bolting mountain ridges/faces, and some with natural protection available.But guess what? their coming! their coming by the dozens with their sticky shoes and quickdraws to safely climb these shopping mall routes. Of course they are 98.8% guaranteed to succeed in safely getting up the route. After IB I warned that this would happen and unfortunately I really hope the government gets involved to stop this, because these new breed gym climbers have very little respect for history or the style that routes go up.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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I really hope the government gets involved to stop this
I am not a gun toting libertarian, but that statement scares me.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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They had checked with the FA climber, who lives out of country and he said to go for it. The bottom line is a few of the locals resented the intrusion and chopped the bolts. The bottom line in discussion is that if there is an established route and it needs bolt replaced, the local climbers will handle it. If it is bolted to make it "safer" it is degrading the climb. Eventually someone will find a reason to bolt every trad climb to make it "safer". Really changes the game, you should build the skills, evaluate the risk and then decide to climb it the was the FA did.
Wow, what, you don't say???
I've been told for decades that the FA owns the route and can do what they want with it including authorizing somebody else to retro bolt.
But now you are telling me that the rights of the locals outweigh the rights of the FA.
Cognitive dissonance strikes deep.
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