From MP - JOSHUA TREE: THE BOLTING PRESSURE COOKER

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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 12, 2018 - 05:34pm PT
https://www.commonclimber.com/bolting-pressure-cooker.html
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Mar 12, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
Seems non-controversial. Joshua Tree has many top down bolts. Then again I may be out of touch with the % of routes going in ground up vs. top down since I'm not down there much any more.

Top down if done right, like these guys, takes time when hand drilling.

Though with sufficient time lapse, routes will continue to get concentrated by the road as a result.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2018 - 06:05pm PT
I thought route developers where what they called those guys in the gym?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 12, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
That's some funny sh#t.

Joshua Tree is known for its surreal beauty, cartoonish blobs of granite, sand-bagged old-school ratings, and run-out…

Imagine for a moment: You are on steep featureless slab, very little, if any protection is placed below you, your feet hang tenuously onto the rock. Then you let go with your hands, grab a hand-cranked drill, and slowly begin drilling.
xCon

Social climber
909
Mar 12, 2018 - 07:04pm PT
id like to hear a discussion amongs developers whove had a climber die leading a route theyd established

personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.

established lines need to be remediated while decents modified or eliminated with increased lower off anchors out of respect for the flora and fauna

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 12, 2018 - 07:12pm PT
Oh sh*t don't feed the troll...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
Personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.

Really? Drill the risk out of climbing? How modern. So we really are on track to eventually retrobolt sport climbs that don't comport with Planet Granite bolt spacing. Good to know.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Mar 12, 2018 - 08:03pm PT
//personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.

established lines need to be remediated while decents modified or eliminated with increased lower off anchors out of respect for the flora and fauna//




Well then stay away from my crag. Please.

Arne
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Mar 12, 2018 - 08:06pm PT
Maybe Sail Away should have the original down climb instead of weeny bolts at the top
xCon

Social climber
909
Mar 12, 2018 - 08:14pm PT
although something of a bitter pill to find your ground up 3 bolt R now sports 8 bolts lowering rings a new name and someone claiming the FA some 15 years after you had the place to yourself I got used to it

you will too...


but again the emphasis

"id like to hear a discussion amongs developers whove had a climber die leading a route theyd established"
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Mar 12, 2018 - 08:25pm PT
XCon, I’ve heard Tenzing Norgay felt really bad about his route.

“I wish I had installed cables to the top”, were his last words.

Moose
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
id like to hear a discussion amongs developers whove had a climber die leading a route theyd established

I shouldn't feed the troll, I know, but on the tiny chance that this is a real question, I'll answer.

A climber died on Vertical Vee, a route I established at the Riverside Quarry. It made the local papers. I did not know the man.

Both in our guidebook and the recent guide, as well as obvious to any climber just looking at the route, it is apparent that there is unprotected 5.7/5.8 to the start of an aid crack, and the first placement is not good (A3ish). If that placement blows, you fall 25+ tumbling feet onto talus.

You make the choice to take that risk, or you don't do the route. He chose, the placement failed, and he died.

All death is tragic, and I don't say that tritely. But "climbing" takes place within a wide spectrum of risk factors. The risks in this case were flat-out obvious to any even minimally-competent climber, particularly an aid climber. So, this was an intentional choice that, tragically, had the personally-ultimate consequence.

But the idea that all climbing should be rendered risk-free is flat-out absurd. That's not climbing; it's more like gymnastics. And high-grade gymnastics even comes with its own set of risks.

There is no eliminating risks from life or making climbs "not dangerous." And it will be a sad day if some group (climbers, the government, etc.) goes on a campaign to "eliminate risk" from all our activities, as if that could even be done! Living, particularly excelling, is a matter of calculated risk. Sometimes your choices bite, and some choices bite harder than others. Such is life (and death).

Some climbers seek risk, and their experience should not be dumbed down to the lowest common-denominator. There are countless climbs spanning the entire range of risk; there are more than enough casual climbs for those that just want to "have fun" with little risk. I suggest: Leave some alone for those that seek risk; there are plenty of established routes to go around.
TLP

climber
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
Great post, perfectly written. I couldn't agree more. I've done plenty of R and X routes; and there are plenty of those that I'll never attempt, but I vehemently disagree they should be retrobolted more closely. It's essential for the healthy human spirit to know that there is something beyond your own ability and imagination.
xCon

Social climber
909
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:14pm PT
given that all bolted climbs are in need of being rebolted sooner or later and that the world that produced the 'mind' of the first ascentionist no longer exists in any of these cases I find preserving them disrespectful of the humanity of those most likely to be lured into them in the future

coyote in the bush being an indian cove example

two bolt, a pin and another bolt

then one day a 2o year old kid finds the pin missing and instead of bailing out right he guns it for the next bolt and ends up dead

the route had a 4th bolt within days


big al left several pitch of mine out of his guides
pitches id led on all tied off features

"you shouldn't climb on that stuff and I'm not encouraging anyone else to" was what he said

I was to young to get it at the time

but ive noticed that it is rarely the properly experienced making a rational choice about danger in assuming its consequences who get bit by these attractive nuisances we have created



clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:17pm PT

Ban bolting and only criminals will bolt.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
Fookin retarded old school Josh "route developers"


Pretty danged funny article.

DMT
xCon

Social climber
909
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:27pm PT
bother you to resize that pic?
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:27pm PT
Many men have died trying to follow my routes.

And goddamn them they had it coming.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:28pm PT
Get a better browser, dad.

DMT
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 12, 2018 - 09:29pm PT


1.) The evidence shows that no matter how “safe” you make a route some folks will find a way to get killed on it. Then we have to hear how experienced he or she was.

2.) The list of good rock climbers getting killed on serious routes is shorter than the list of lesser climbers blowing it on well protected climbs.

3.) So the only thing you really want is for the masses to be able to “do” routes which are, in their original concept, over their heads. But aren’t there enough routes of various styles to go around?

Or maybe you’re just predicting the future, not advocating for what you say?
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