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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 12, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
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Seems non-controversial. Joshua Tree has many top down bolts. Then again I may be out of touch with the % of routes going in ground up vs. top down since I'm not down there much any more.
Top down if done right, like these guys, takes time when hand drilling.
Though with sufficient time lapse, routes will continue to get concentrated by the road as a result.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 12, 2018 - 06:05pm PT
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I thought route developers where what they called those guys in the gym?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 12, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
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That's some funny sh#t.
Joshua Tree is known for its surreal beauty, cartoonish blobs of granite, sand-bagged old-school ratings, and run-out…
Imagine for a moment: You are on steep featureless slab, very little, if any protection is placed below you, your feet hang tenuously onto the rock. Then you let go with your hands, grab a hand-cranked drill, and slowly begin drilling.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 12, 2018 - 07:12pm PT
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Oh sh*t don't feed the troll...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
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Personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.
Really? Drill the risk out of climbing? How modern. So we really are on track to eventually retrobolt sport climbs that don't comport with Planet Granite bolt spacing. Good to know.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Mar 12, 2018 - 08:03pm PT
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//personally I don't believe there is any excuse for tolerating dangerous routes any longer.
established lines need to be remediated while decents modified or eliminated with increased lower off anchors out of respect for the flora and fauna//
Well then stay away from my crag. Please.
Arne
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 12, 2018 - 08:06pm PT
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Maybe Sail Away should have the original down climb instead of weeny bolts at the top
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 12, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
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id like to hear a discussion amongs developers whove had a climber die leading a route theyd established
I shouldn't feed the troll, I know, but on the tiny chance that this is a real question, I'll answer.
A climber died on Vertical Vee, a route I established at the Riverside Quarry. It made the local papers. I did not know the man.
Both in our guidebook and the recent guide, as well as obvious to any climber just looking at the route, it is apparent that there is unprotected 5.7/5.8 to the start of an aid crack, and the first placement is not good (A3ish). If that placement blows, you fall 25+ tumbling feet onto talus.
You make the choice to take that risk, or you don't do the route. He chose, the placement failed, and he died.
All death is tragic, and I don't say that tritely. But "climbing" takes place within a wide spectrum of risk factors. The risks in this case were flat-out obvious to any even minimally-competent climber, particularly an aid climber. So, this was an intentional choice that, tragically, had the personally-ultimate consequence.
But the idea that all climbing should be rendered risk-free is flat-out absurd. That's not climbing; it's more like gymnastics. And high-grade gymnastics even comes with its own set of risks.
There is no eliminating risks from life or making climbs "not dangerous." And it will be a sad day if some group (climbers, the government, etc.) goes on a campaign to "eliminate risk" from all our activities, as if that could even be done! Living, particularly excelling, is a matter of calculated risk. Sometimes your choices bite, and some choices bite harder than others. Such is life (and death).
Some climbers seek risk, and their experience should not be dumbed down to the lowest common-denominator. There are countless climbs spanning the entire range of risk; there are more than enough casual climbs for those that just want to "have fun" with little risk. I suggest: Leave some alone for those that seek risk; there are plenty of established routes to go around.
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TLP
climber
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Mar 12, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
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Great post, perfectly written. I couldn't agree more. I've done plenty of R and X routes; and there are plenty of those that I'll never attempt, but I vehemently disagree they should be retrobolted more closely. It's essential for the healthy human spirit to know that there is something beyond your own ability and imagination.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 12, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
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Ban bolting and only criminals will bolt.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 12, 2018 - 09:29pm PT
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1.) The evidence shows that no matter how “safe” you make a route some folks will find a way to get killed on it. Then we have to hear how experienced he or she was.
2.) The list of good rock climbers getting killed on serious routes is shorter than the list of lesser climbers blowing it on well protected climbs.
3.) So the only thing you really want is for the masses to be able to “do” routes which are, in their original concept, over their heads. But aren’t there enough routes of various styles to go around?
Or maybe you’re just predicting the future, not advocating for what you say?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Mar 12, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
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^^^
that guy's hand is only 3/8 inch wide !
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 13, 2018 - 12:23am PT
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It's essential for the healthy human spirit to know that there is something beyond your own ability and imagination.
Spot on.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Mar 13, 2018 - 12:33am PT
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that guy's hand is only 3/8 inch wide !
A sighting of The Donald?
Hey, a perfect way to take the risk out of climbing: stay home!
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Mar 13, 2018 - 08:02am PT
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Happened only a few months ago.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 13, 2018 - 10:53am PT
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Whatchya gonna drill in Death Valley, yer tombstone?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 13, 2018 - 11:28am PT
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X-con your example of Coyote in the Desert is flawed. Old fixed pins should be maintained, usually by placing a bolt in their place. This is not the same as adding bolts to an established route. Blanketty Blank at Tahquitz is a good example.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Mar 13, 2018 - 11:46am PT
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ZZZZzz x100000000
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