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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 29, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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Toker said: "Yeah, couch,
trade offs are not always a good deal. A little bit of cheap power is not worth destroying what was a breath takingly awesome canyon system with who knows how many anthropological sites.
Surprised you would say it."
I have deep respect for your thinking process's and intelligence, however I think it's an easy call for me that the damn should be left alone right now Ron. I'm starting with this kind of thing as the basis of my thinking: http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/western-drought-drains-clean-energy-fresh-water/article_71770561-6a20-5ae1-9f6d-81adc37c20eb.html (" ie, The system is in deep trouble,” said Tim Barnett, one of the study’s lead authors.")
1st) The damn is in, paid for. It is providing relatively clean inexpensive hydropower.
2nd) The drought isn't just affecting agriculture, hydropower is down 60% in the area.
3rd) Replacement power WILL be carbon based. Natural gas and coal. That brings terrible environmental issues. Many of the (huge) costs will be hidden, but it will still cost more.
4th) Costs to remove the damn, and the increase in future costs by not having that power, will be borne by ratepayers already being sh#t on and seeing prices increase due to the drought.
The uninformed will say "oh, they should knock the damn down and replace it with solar or wind", which is a great sediment that means nothing as those saying that don't have a clue how it really works.
Thats my short version anyway:-)
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2015 - 08:57am PT
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The uninformed will say "oh, they should knock the damn down and replace it with solar or wind", which is a great sediment that means nothing as those saying that don't have a clue how it really works.
I love the way you assume that everyone who thinks differently is uninformed.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 29, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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What a terrible, awful place. We have destroyed Glen Canyon. There is nothing left.
What have we done? This is absolutely horrifying.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 29, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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We are all damned!
Dam it!
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 29, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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Just see Sylvester exploring .....
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 29, 2015 - 09:54am PT
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Dam, guess I mispelt something again. Given that the refutations are limited to spel cheks, proving the "refuters" (refutors?) have nothing to bring to bare in opposition that you essentially all admit that the logic and the facts are rock solid and unassailable. I mean, if that's all you have.
Here's a couple for your inner grammarist:
"Sediment definition: the matter that settles to the bottom of a liquid; lees; dregs"
"Oh nutz, did he just do that again in this post? Jesus." Yes, he did. "Bare vs. bear
As an adjective, bare means lacking clothing, naked, exposed to view, or lacking adornment. As a verb, it means to make bare, to uncover, or to expose. Its past tense is bared. Bear has no adjectival definition. When not referring to the large mammal, it is a verb with a variety of meanings, none of which relate to uncovering or exposing. A few of its meanings are to hold, to support, to exhibit, to carry oneself in a specified way, to endure, to give birth to, and to yield (especially fruit). Its past tense is bore (e.g., it bore fruit), and its past participle is borne (e.g., it has borne fruit)." Haha
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 29, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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In lieu of utilizing actual intelligence or humor it's what passes as clever around here Ekat:-) Thank yew.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 29, 2015 - 09:59am PT
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3rd) Replacement power WILL be carbon based. Natural gas and coal. Now there's the fallacy.
Wind and solar energy are plentiful in the Four Corners environment. With improvements in technology and environmental engineering (protecting the environment, that is) the Glen Canyon energy could easily be replaced.
Here are some dammed energy capacities in Megawatts (rounded to nearest 100, pun intended)
Grand Coulee 6800
Hoover 2100
Niagara Falls 2500
Glen Canyon 1300 (1/2 as much as Niagara Falls)
Total about 13 Gigawatts
Solar thermal power stations (already operating)
Megawatts
Ivanpah 400
SEGS (Mojave desert) 350
Mojave Solar Project 300
Solana, Arizona 300
That's more than Glen Canyon already
Currently operating wind power capacity
China 91 Gigawatts
US 61 Gigawatts
Germany 35 Gigawatts
Spain 23 GW
India 20GW
UK 10.5GW (smaller than the state of California)
Denmark 4.8GW
So combined, four of the largest Hydro dams in the US produce less power than Denmark & UK's current wind generation.
A quick look at Denmark from Google Earth
and from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark
See that arc of wind turbines outside the Copenhagen harbour? There are dozens more along the Danish coastline.
Meanwhile we can't build a wind farm off Woods Hole Mass.
Denmark adopted a target of cutting carbon emissions by 22% from 1988 levels by 2005.[6] On 29 March 1985, one year before the Chernobyl disaster, the Danes passed a law forbidding the construction of nuclear power plants.
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Planning of wind power was deliberately streamlined by authorities in order to minimize hurdles.[7]
Many countries tried to subsidize green technology such as wind power, and most failed to make a viable industry. The Danish system was an exception, providing 30% of initial capital cost in the early years which was gradually reduced to zero, but still maintaining a feed-in tariff. As of 2011 wind power provided 28% of the nation's electricity.
Currently Denmark builds 38% of the world's turbine market (mostly Vestas and Siemens)
The largest maker of wind turbines in the world is Danish Vestas. They've installed 55GWatss worldwide. Nice foreign exchange income.
A California friend of mine was employed designing their blades for many years, around the world. A "well paying job" as the politicians like to call it.
Vestas' biggest current turbine is 8 MWatts.
160 of those turbines along the sides of Glen Canyon would have the same peak output as the dam.
SO Hell YAH take out Glen Canyon Dam.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 29, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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Hmmmm....that commissioner guy/author will be talking in Moab on Sat night
April 2 — Book reading and discussion at Back of Beyond Books, 83 North Main St., Moab, 6:30 p.m.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 29, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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There must be thousands of poorly maintained, useless, environmentally destructive dams in the US.
There are probably a couple of hundred in California.
I know of at least three within 60 miles of me, two of which are being taken out and the habitats restored (on the Carmel river above Carmel Valley) and one which Stanford is stubbornly trying to keep (at the headwaters of San Francisquito Creek).
There are several home made dams on the San Lorenzo river that impede the spawning of Steelhead which used to be plentiful in the watershed and are now rare.
California Department of Fish and Game records disclose seven of these large recreational dams along the mainstem of the San Lorenzo River. http://www.santacruzpl.org/history/articles/397/
One of the main San Lorenzo River tributaries springs forth a couple of hundred yards from my house. I've seen a few very small fish in the pools in the creek. So some fish are making the perilous journey. Take out the dams and within my lifetime I could go fishing for my dinner.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 29, 2015 - 10:27am PT
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I like the idea of using hydropower. I'm with HT, we should be exploring the options of solar and wind power. Some of you "drainers" might want to think about the Navajo Coal Generating Station right next to Page, AZ. The stench of sulfur over the lake on a winter inversion is gross.
In my opinion the proposed Gondola in the Grand Canyon is a much more worthy fight than trying to tear down Glen Canyon Damn. More info here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2005084/Grand-Canyon-AZ-Gondola
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 29, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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HT, did you say fish for dinner?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Apr 29, 2015 - 10:35am PT
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^^ Love that pic!
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 29, 2015 - 11:34am PT
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Bruce - sorry if I insulted anyone. Was teasingly saying with that post: "BRING YER FACTS". I suspected that despite the absence of them (not to denigrate anyone's previously posted well stated and plentiful emotional outbursts) they would soon enough show up and indeed Fred brought some. His Danish comment, while good, should come with an asterix noting that the flat land of Denmark does not readily lend itself to hydroelectric, at least that was my though last time I was there. I will admit to drinking in several brewery's (Tuborg and Carlsberg), and that might have not lent itself towards critical thought although it at least did lead to a decent tattoo. A brief bit of research would see that Euros had seen big damage done with coal plants. In fact they were in the process of wiping out their forests as the sh#t was killing all of the trees and point #2) We (the USA USA USA!) have craploads of coal, coal plants, and powerful Senators in Coal country to not soon see a repeat of what Denmark has achieved.
Sure we can all wish for wind. But if wishes were fishes that cat up there, who seems so comfortable and well traveled, would be in hog heaven.
ps, on this: "I love the way you assume that everyone who thinks differently is uninformed." I'm not sure why you would "love" that. Or even why you think I think that way. I'm only smart enough to know that I carry a deep biased ignorance on many issues: this is most assuredly one of them. However, regardless of my stupidity on the subject, I do find that I know more than most on it.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 29, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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flat land of Denmark does not readily lend itself to hydroelectric Odd, I'd considered editing my comment to include that.
As for your comments on coal, oil and gas fired power, you're spot on. These truly have to go first.
As for Glen Canyon dam. It definitely violates its beautiful surroundings and is doing the ecology of the river great harm. In 1996, 2004, 2008 and 2012 they did massive water releases precisely to try to flush the Colorado River downstream.
It's not clear whether they met their objectives as they've had to repeat the process.
We mess with Mother Nature at our risk as it's nearly impossible to anticipate the unwanted effects.
Much as wind turbines are a hazard to birds.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 29, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
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If I was on a tirade to improve the environment of the Four Corners Area, this power plant pictured below would be in my target sights.
Hopefully some of the pictures I have posted on this thread will help people understand that Glen Canyon is neither "destroyed" or "ruined". I will agree that the ecosystem has been radically altered, but there are still a lifetime of wonderful sights to enjoy. I used to be a "drainer" until I made the time to spend a hundred nights on the lake and over forty nights on the river below the dam.
As a wilderness advocate, it truly sucks that such a wonderful canyon was inundated to serve our thirst for water and power. I just have a hard time understanding what good it would do to drain the lake. In the midst of a drought which has been going on for nearly two decades (and is expected to continue), can someone please explain the benefits of draining the lake?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 29, 2015 - 02:26pm PT
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can someone please explain the benefits of draining the lake?
The self righteous can assuage their guilt and have a feel good moment.
Four corners and the coal slurry pipeline that feeds it operate off of local ground water and have severely impacted other ground water users as far away as the Mogollon rim.
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 29, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
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Quoted: "In the midst of a drought which has been going on for nearly two decades (and is expected to continue), can someone please explain the benefits of draining the lake?"
I'll pitch a single possible shot. Don't know about the guilt assuagement that TGT discusses, although I'm all for less guilt in life. As you know, lakes and reservoirs increase the surface area which radically speeds up the evaporation process. Some estimates say 1 million acre feet lost per year at Powell reservoir. By eliminating the dam and speeding the water through you lower the water table, decreasing loss and possibly utilizing the water you have better. (I have not studied that, so don't quote me, thus the word "possible"). If Lake Mead drops enough, then the extra water is not "wasted" but will be used to power the Hoover Dam turbines. So it's might not necessarily be a net loss, and in fact you might have a gain if you can somehow capture and utilize the extra million acre feet a year. Certainly the fish would be happier, as would your cat:-) Although currently that Hoover dam power plant is still online, so that wouldn't occur for a while, and only be a factor if the drought continues.
But I think thats the best pitch against the dam.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 29, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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Slight thread drift, but related if you begin talk of dismantling coal plants and major dams:
Let's not forget the Dine (Navajo) who live in the area of Black Mesa, where the coal is being mined. They have been harassed and bullied by the coal companies for forty years or more, being told they need to move from their homes. My friends tell me there are armed guards patrolling their ancestral homelands on horseback and by motor vehicle.
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