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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 29, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
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Until society is willing to pay for the higher cost of low impact electrical generation and to reduce our consumption of electricity, it's a moot point. IMHO the answer isn't more large scale electrical generation, no matter how "clean" the method. The answer is small local generation even if it is less cost effective.
Why waste more wild lands for solar plants, wind farms and power transmission lines when the side of every building could be used for solar panels, and the roofs topped with small turbines? And if more natural gas fired plants are required, why should it be in a remote area vs. integrated into cities and subburbs?
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 29, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
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couchmaster that is an interesting stab at why people might want to dismantle the damnation in that the water might be better "utilized" downstream at Mead. Certainly the folks in the lower basin (i.e. CA) might be happier.
My perspective is that we need to protect what few remaining wild lands we have then tackle dam dismantling projects. Besides the gondola to one of the most special places on the Colorado Plateau, there are strong efforts to begin uranium mining on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, as well as a mega-development on the South Rim. Once we fvck a place up it is a lot harder to fix, let's keep a few places wild.
Paul - great ideas on the solar. I am all about power to the people not power to the multinational corporations.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 29, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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The Navajo power plant has to be seen from the air to be believed.
It casts a stream of gray air all the way across southern Colorado. It's visible pollution output is shocking. Then there are the invisible pollutants.
Next time I'm flying over it (unfortunately not on my flight next week) I'll try to get some pics.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 29, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
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HT said;
In 1996, 2004, 2008 and 2012 they did massive water releases precisely to try to flush the Colorado River downstream.
It's not clear whether they met their objectives as they've had to repeat the process.
It was a con job.
The river runners were complaining about how all the beaches disappeared. This was because Lake Foul is a sediment trap. The water running into the Grand Canyon is cold and almost sediment free, so it picked up the sand washed into the river but hardly replaced it.
So they simulated floods to stir up what little sediment is there with less efficacy each time.
Until the sediment flows again the canyon will continue to be scoured.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Apr 29, 2015 - 05:40pm PT
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The Navajo power plant has to be seen from the air to be believed.
It casts a stream of gray air all the way across southern Colorado. It's visible pollution output is shocking.
I read an article a few weeks ago about the power plant. Many Navajo oppose the power plant, unfortunately the powers that be(Navajo Nation government) signed off on another twenty year agreement. Ostensibly, because it provides employment for the local residents.
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 30, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
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Albert said: "My perspective is that we need to protect what few remaining wild lands we have then tackle dam dismantling projects. Besides the gondola to one of the most special places on the Colorado Plateau, there are strong efforts to begin uranium mining on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, as well as a mega-development on the South Rim. Once we fvck a place up it is a lot harder to fix, let's keep a few places wild."
Well spoken. In fact, having a pre-planned and agreed upon list of important projects would be a good way to start. Then taking the money that they would have to dump into tearing out the damn and putting in that hierarchically set list (most important on top) of important projects or issues would be the way to go. It would avoid a lot of waste.
Although I suspect that depending on who is drawing up the list, there would still be significant arguments. Keystone pipeline? Arctic drilling? Fracking?
I will say that I have more confidence in some of our leadership now than ever before. President Obama has made some superb Dept of Energy picks. (Chu, Munez) They are sharp honest fellas (ie, no Teapot Dome or Halliburton scandals) in addition to being "fair and balanced", have a balanced and deep knowledge of their field. :-) For instance: Secretary of Energy Munez, a Phd in Physics, has been personally involved in the nucular limits discussions with Iran.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
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Damn this place is nice!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
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I love that last post couch master. If people would just remain civil past their initial head butt, common ground is often found. Leave it to an Oregonian... Peace bro. Smith Rocks forever.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
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I haven't seen a condor yet on the lake, but lots of other aquatic fowl.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 30, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
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I like what you wrote couchmaster. There are many battles going on against "the environment" right now.
I try to focus energy on conserving my backyard, that is the Colorado Plateau and surrounding lands. It seems to be a still plenty wild area with numerous issues facing their survival. I am certain that other readers around the world have their own sacred areas which might need some fore thought.
Just in case people missed my earlier sarcasm. It was horrible what happened to Glen Canyon when they made the decision to build the dam. Many believe it flooded one of the most special places on the planet. But there is still a lot of cool stuff left to see on the lake by anyone who is motivated. I encourage everyone to go check the place out at least once in their life.
Keep up the good fight.
Albert
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 30, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
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Right on Albert! (and thanks for the compliment Bruce although Smith Rock looks way different these days than you remember it:-)) MNot just more bolts, more people X 20. I think we all caught the nuances you were trying to portray Albert, and I think most of us would be in agreement if we were pause to reflect and consider it as a total picture, as you have. Like many things, black and white usually describe it less perfect than "grey", or "A little black, a bit less white" or vice versa.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 30, 2015 - 08:33pm PT
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Sylvester has around 60 nights on the lake and has explored several dozen of its beaches.
I sincerely hope that everyone finds a wild place (or many) that they love.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Apr 30, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
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Did somebody say "slot canyon"?
I think Sylvester likes slot canyons, too.
Get out there and enjoy some wilderness wherever you might find it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Calling Steve Grossman,..
I wrote an article about climbing at Lake Powell in the early '80s for Rock & Ice. It was titled Salvage Runs. The lake had just reached "full pool", it's max height.
(pretty much embodies Albert's perspective, except I took a dog named Crow, who I suspect was a far better and more willing swimmer than the cat)
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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We would go around a corner and spread out before us was this incredible sight that a) nobody had ever seen before b) nobody had touched it and c) it was utterly and incredibly beautiful.
Um, huh? Nobody meaning no white person? They uncovered artifacts from a civilization 700 years ago, but nobody had ever seen it? Was their cultural arrogance really all that different than the dam makers? Well we got some artsy nudes out of it anyway :-)
Crazy crazy idea in retrospect, like most of our ideas.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2015 - 05:39pm PT
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This aggression will not stand,....man!
The Dude
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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I sure hope somebody can post up Ron's article about the lake from the early 1980s. Sounds cool.
After the Civil War, the government was looking to keep the war machine strong, so aimed their sights on the Navajo People. In 1864, thousand(s) of Navajo were forced at gunpoint, to walk to a camp in eastern NM in what some historians call "The Long Walk of the Navajo".
Stories tell us that some clans of Navajo hid out in "Navajo Canyon" during this assault by the US government. It is easy to imagine these people hiding out all over the area now smothered by Lake Powell.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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White man has arrived on scene.
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