Take Out Glen Canyon Dam.

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survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 27, 2015 - 10:43am PT
I've seen this short film before, but Riley reminded me today. Thanks Riley.








No wonder Ed Abbey wanted to blow the fecking thing up.











http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/short-film-showcase/damnation-desert-goddess-remembers-arizonas-glen-canyon?source=searchvideo
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:04am PT
When he returned to the United States, Ed Abbey took advantage of the G.I. Bill to attend the University of New Mexico,
where he received a B.A. in philosophy and English in 1951, and a master's degree in philosophy in 1956.
(from Wikipedia)
He wrote the Monkey Wrench Gang, of course...and Hayduke Lives! as well.


Katie Lee (b. October 23, 1919 in Tucson, Arizona) is an Arizona folk singer, writer, actress, photographer and environmental activist.[1]

She graduated from the University of Arizona with a Bachelor of Fine Arts. After that, she went on to study with two of the most successful folksingers of the 1940s, Burl Ives and Josh White.

After joining a rafting trip in the Grand Canyon she became a regular on river trips on the Colorado River and joined the opposition to the construction of Glen Canyon Dam. In September and October 1955 she and[2] Tad Nichols and Frank Wright traveled thru- and documented parts of the Glen Canyon that later were to be submerged.
(also from Wikipedia)

She sings well. Have a listen.[Click to View YouTube Video]

Survival, thanks for the post, man...you got a Earth Day hangover?

"Every day should be Earth Day." (Earth PhilG's grand daughter).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:22am PT
Oh, to have been able to see the canyon of glens,... ah well. If you drained it and destroyed the dam the damage would still last for millenia.

Eventually the folly will be obvious. In a few centuries "Lake Powell" will have filled with sediment and will be an enormous tamarisk forest, causing increased salinity of the water going to agriculture downstream.

Madness.
splitclimber

climber
Sonoma County
Apr 27, 2015 - 11:39am PT
Absolutely right tv
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2015 - 11:43am PT
Good posts.


If you drained it and destroyed the dam the damage would still last for millenia.

Doesn't mean taking it down isn't the right thing to do.

philo

Trad climber
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel or a tr
Apr 27, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
You'll like this Survival.

http://youtu.be/e-qZ9QI_XFA


The Dam saved by an inch and plywood.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/07/28/363471/-A-Tale-of-Two-Centimeters-160-The-Near-Collapse-of-the-Colorado-River-Dam-System-in-1983

If Glen Canyon had breached the catastrophic flooding of 33 Billion cubic meters of water would have been biblical.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2015 - 02:35pm PT
I agree DMT. Tough sell, still the right thing. I also agree that the recovery time would be less than millennia.....
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 27, 2015 - 04:58pm PT
The Canyon of Glen would recover very quickly if left to its own devices and there would be virtually no damage left to discern, within just a few hundred years.

Huh?
Hogwash!
The hand of man has left left a heavy mark. There have been so many spalls that it has reshaped the canyon itself. The best black varnish takes eons to form.



And dam removal might be a "tough sell" if indeed the Glen Canyon Dam impounded water for drinking or agriculture.
It is only for producing power (and is so remote that at least half the power is lost in transmission).

c wilmot

climber
Apr 27, 2015 - 05:03pm PT

Of course I litter the public highway. Every chance I get. After all, it's not the beer cans that are ugly; it's the highway that is ugly.— Edward Abbey

Just another hypocrite
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 27, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
And dam removal might be a "tough sell" if indeed the Glen Canyon Dam impounded water for drinking or agriculture.
It is only for producing power (and is so remote that at least half the power is lost in transmission).

Nope, on both counts.

All of the power and water is used in the adjacent southwest.

https://www.wapa.gov/crsp/customerscrsp/documents/Post-2004CRODList_FY09_FINAL.pdf

The lights would go out in about every Indian reservation and small town without it.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 27, 2015 - 05:47pm PT
The damage caused by the dam is not limited to the flooded land. Blocking the flow has caused the water temperature downstream to remain constantly cold, rather than vary naturally. It also causes the river to run clear most of the time. These two changes have decimated the native chub. The trout love it, but they are not native.

Free the river and let it run free to the Sea of Cortez

http://www.livescience.com/45783-colorado-river-reaches-gulf.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 27, 2015 - 05:53pm PT
yeah,

them injuns don't need no new fangled lectric lights!

Read the customer list.

While there are some big volume consumers like the Salt River pumps the overwhelming number of connected users are reservations and small coops.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 27, 2015 - 06:38pm PT

Sylvester likes Glen Canyon.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 27, 2015 - 06:42pm PT


stonefly

Social climber
Alameda, California
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:07pm PT


the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:11pm PT


Lake Powell, what an incredible place. I feel so thankful to explore the area. Go there if you get the chance.

stonefly

Social climber
Alameda, California
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
Not to mention the beauty that is Phoenix. It couldn't have happened without the sacrifice.

son of stan

Boulder climber
San Jose CA
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
Bumping sandstone is almost as low as bumping Choss. Almost.

And boating to a route is far superior than grunting up
through cactus and rattlesnakes.

And Page Az residents, living a sandstones throw from Glen Cramyon Dam
only pay 7.5cents per kilowatt for electricity. Proof the dam is not
worthless. Pay more than double that in San Jose.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 27, 2015 - 07:48pm PT

Lake Powell is horrible, we must destroy the dam.
stonefly

Social climber
Alameda, California
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
Just imagine the sound of four 27-litre Rolls Royce Merlin engines on a low altitude run!

limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
If only we could have our cake and eat it too.

I feel that naked lady's pain though, if someone tried to dam the Kings or Kaweah I'd probably be building bombs in my basement, and Glen Canyon looked even more outstanding.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
Was it Earth First activists that rolled this long crack cloth down Glen Canyon Dam.


It appears to be a evocative image for other artists.


I remember a house-boat filled with explosives as the fantasy in Hayduke Lives?
Captain...or Skully

climber
Boise, ID
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
Lake Foul must be destroyed. Lake Greed, too.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:32pm PT
I'm in! Hetch Hetchy too!

And No! to the one they want to build in Long canyon!!
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Apr 27, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
High water marks have been visible for at least 40 years, that I can remember. Those marks aren't going away anytime soon, especially when you consider the porous nature of the rock. The electric power generated is more than just small towns. If you've ever run the Grand Canyon, you'll know that the water releases from the dam are directly related to the power needs of the city of Phoenix.

The commerce generated by Lake Powell and the city of Page is huge, employing thousands of people, including many Native Americans. 2 of the 5 marinas are owned by them. Wahweap Marina alone has about 900 house boat slips, not to mention all of the motor boats. Just about every beach has a house boat parked there. The beautiful Cathedral Canyon is partially under water.

As a kayaker/river runner it's sad to think of the inundation of Dark Canyon Rapid, farther up stream, but many people now have access via the lake to these canyons...it's both good and bad.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Boise, ID
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:02pm PT
I'm tired of people. Eff 'em. People aren't sacred.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Apr 27, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
Yes he is sick, but damn, taking Glenn Campbell out is not something I would advocate or condone. Cheney should go first.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 07:46am PT































And the shot that says it all......

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 28, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 28, 2015 - 03:28pm PT
The damage caused by the dam is not limited to the flooded land. Blocking the flow has caused the water temperature downstream to remain constantly cold, rather than vary naturally. It also causes the river to run clear most of the time. These two changes have decimated the native chub. The trout love it, but they are not native.

I don't know about regulating the sediment content downstream, but there are good technologies for regulating the downstream temperature. Pretty ingenious actually. I just learned about it last year when I stopped at the Romero Visitor Center along Highway 152 east of Gilroy:
http://www.water.ca.gov/recreation/locations/sanluis/sanluisvisitor.cfm

Basically, there is a second wall on the inside of the dam with flaps that can be regulated open or closed, and a gap of water there between the two dam walls. By controlling the opening and closing of flaps at different water depths, they control how much deep cold water or surface warm water is passed through, and have a tight control of the outflow temperature that way.

I don't know what it would take to retrofit this technology onto older dams.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 28, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
Here is an interesting link to the history of Lake Powell.

http://www.lakepowell.org/documents/Lake%20Powell%20Chronology%20-%201960%27s.pdf



Lake Powell is awesome! Go check it out if you get the chance. Long live Lake Powell!

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 28, 2015 - 04:57pm PT
The lights would go out in about every Indian reservation and small town without it.
That's not nearly correct. All the major power sources in the West are interconnected. Because it's connected to the local transmission line network, Glen Canyon Dam is connected to the Pacific Northwest and Southwest intertie networks.
Share and share alike.
It's a highly redundant system.
Oldfattradguy2

Trad climber
Here and there
Apr 28, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
A great read, perhaps on par with the monkey wrench gang. I am always amazed that more folks do not know about this book.

Glen Canyon
http://www.amazon.com/Glen-Canyon-Steven-M-Hannon/dp/0965512509
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 28, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
The water level is down, what, 100 feet?

That means that this 650 footer is now a 750 footer:

couchmaster

climber
Apr 28, 2015 - 05:40pm PT

God forbid some "horrible" people try and provide the rest of us with plentiful and inexpensive power. I haven't seen any of you whiners turning off your computers. Any of you wonder how those things operate? Here is a small suggestion to help you along the path to knowledge: pull the plug of the computer right outta the wall and then spend a couple days contemplating the hypocrisy. LOL

It's all about trade offs. Any of you traded off yet? Nah, didn't think so, me either. I love having cheap power, refrigerators and computers. Is there a price to pay? Hell yes. We all have chosen to pay it. All of us.

Including you.








survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 05:55pm PT
Any of you traded off yet? Nah, didn't think so, me either.


Well I have invested in full solar array on two homes in a row, if that counts in your esteemed opinion. I bit the bullet and paid the price, twice.

They ruined an incomparable national treasure when they flooded that place.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 29, 2015 - 06:29am PT
Yeah, couch,
trade offs are not always a good deal. A little bit of cheap power is not worth destroying what was a breath takingly awesome canyon system with who knows how many anthropological sites.

Surprised you would say it.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 29, 2015 - 07:06am PT
Yes there are always tradeoffs to be made. I don't know if the Glen Canyon was a good one or not. I'm leaning towards not. Although I have always wanted to do a boating trip there.

For example ..Yosemite Valley would make for an excellent damn. So would parts of the grand canyon or canyonlands. Clearly very stupid ideas.

Was Hetch Hetchy worth it?.. hell no IMO.. we can't even boat there. SanFrancisco may disagree especially with the drought.

Some places shouldn't have a damn.. some places it's a necessary evil.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 29, 2015 - 08:06am PT
What's the point of all this dam-busting and planning for the future while ignoring the
800 pound gorilla in the room? One child per person, pay-as-you-go instead of tax breaks,
and re-education labor camps re-building the National Parks if you have more than one brat.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2015 - 08:32am PT
Good vid eKatInterpMama!!

Yes, he was definitely suggesting a nuclear option, but not anywhere near San Fran I hope!! Maybe he hadn't heard of earthquakes before. And of course the "atomic age" as he called it, has plenty of little issues of it's own, just ask Three Mile Island and Fukashima whatchamacallit, and oh yeah, that Pornyoble place in Russia.
couchmaster

climber
Apr 29, 2015 - 08:53am PT
Toker said:
"Yeah, couch,
trade offs are not always a good deal. A little bit of cheap power is not worth destroying what was a breath takingly awesome canyon system with who knows how many anthropological sites.

Surprised you would say it."

I have deep respect for your thinking process's and intelligence, however I think it's an easy call for me that the damn should be left alone right now Ron. I'm starting with this kind of thing as the basis of my thinking: http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/western-drought-drains-clean-energy-fresh-water/article_71770561-6a20-5ae1-9f6d-81adc37c20eb.html (" ie, The system is in deep trouble,” said Tim Barnett, one of the study’s lead authors.")

1st) The damn is in, paid for. It is providing relatively clean inexpensive hydropower.

2nd) The drought isn't just affecting agriculture, hydropower is down 60% in the area.

3rd) Replacement power WILL be carbon based. Natural gas and coal. That brings terrible environmental issues. Many of the (huge) costs will be hidden, but it will still cost more.

4th) Costs to remove the damn, and the increase in future costs by not having that power, will be borne by ratepayers already being sh#t on and seeing prices increase due to the drought.

The uninformed will say "oh, they should knock the damn down and replace it with solar or wind", which is a great sediment that means nothing as those saying that don't have a clue how it really works.

Thats my short version anyway:-)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2015 - 08:57am PT
The uninformed will say "oh, they should knock the damn down and replace it with solar or wind", which is a great sediment that means nothing as those saying that don't have a clue how it really works.

I love the way you assume that everyone who thinks differently is uninformed.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 29, 2015 - 09:11am PT
What a terrible, awful place. We have destroyed Glen Canyon. There is nothing left.




What have we done? This is absolutely horrifying.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 29, 2015 - 09:37am PT
We are all damned!


Dam it!
WBraun

climber
Apr 29, 2015 - 09:39am PT
Just see Sylvester exploring .....
couchmaster

climber
Apr 29, 2015 - 09:54am PT
Dam, guess I mispelt something again. Given that the refutations are limited to spel cheks, proving the "refuters" (refutors?) have nothing to bring to bare in opposition that you essentially all admit that the logic and the facts are rock solid and unassailable. I mean, if that's all you have.




Here's a couple for your inner grammarist:
"Sediment definition: the matter that settles to the bottom of a liquid; lees; dregs"

"Oh nutz, did he just do that again in this post? Jesus." Yes, he did.
"Bare vs. bear

As an adjective, bare means lacking clothing, naked, exposed to view, or lacking adornment. As a verb, it means to make bare, to uncover, or to expose. Its past tense is bared. Bear has no adjectival definition. When not referring to the large mammal, it is a verb with a variety of meanings, none of which relate to uncovering or exposing. A few of its meanings are to hold, to support, to exhibit, to carry oneself in a specified way, to endure, to give birth to, and to yield (especially fruit). Its past tense is bore (e.g., it bore fruit), and its past participle is borne (e.g., it has borne fruit)."
Haha
couchmaster

climber
Apr 29, 2015 - 09:56am PT


In lieu of utilizing actual intelligence or humor it's what passes as clever around here Ekat:-) Thank yew.


HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2015 - 09:59am PT
3rd) Replacement power WILL be carbon based. Natural gas and coal.
Now there's the fallacy.

Wind and solar energy are plentiful in the Four Corners environment. With improvements in technology and environmental engineering (protecting the environment, that is) the Glen Canyon energy could easily be replaced.
Here are some dammed energy capacities in Megawatts (rounded to nearest 100, pun intended)
Grand Coulee 6800
Hoover 2100
Niagara Falls 2500

Glen Canyon 1300 (1/2 as much as Niagara Falls)
Total about 13 Gigawatts

Solar thermal power stations (already operating)
Megawatts
Ivanpah 400
SEGS (Mojave desert) 350
Mojave Solar Project 300
Solana, Arizona 300
That's more than Glen Canyon already

Currently operating wind power capacity
China 91 Gigawatts
US 61 Gigawatts
Germany 35 Gigawatts
Spain 23 GW
India 20GW
UK 10.5GW (smaller than the state of California)
Denmark 4.8GW

So combined, four of the largest Hydro dams in the US produce less power than Denmark & UK's current wind generation.

A quick look at Denmark from Google Earth
and from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark
See that arc of wind turbines outside the Copenhagen harbour? There are dozens more along the Danish coastline.
Meanwhile we can't build a wind farm off Woods Hole Mass.
Denmark adopted a target of cutting carbon emissions by 22% from 1988 levels by 2005.[6] On 29 March 1985, one year before the Chernobyl disaster, the Danes passed a law forbidding the construction of nuclear power plants.
.
.
Planning of wind power was deliberately streamlined by authorities in order to minimize hurdles.[7]

Many countries tried to subsidize green technology such as wind power, and most failed to make a viable industry. The Danish system was an exception, providing 30% of initial capital cost in the early years which was gradually reduced to zero, but still maintaining a feed-in tariff.
As of 2011 wind power provided 28% of the nation's electricity.

Currently Denmark builds 38% of the world's turbine market (mostly Vestas and Siemens)
The largest maker of wind turbines in the world is Danish Vestas. They've installed 55GWatss worldwide. Nice foreign exchange income.
A California friend of mine was employed designing their blades for many years, around the world. A "well paying job" as the politicians like to call it.

Vestas' biggest current turbine is 8 MWatts.
160 of those turbines along the sides of Glen Canyon would have the same peak output as the dam.
SO Hell YAH take out Glen Canyon Dam.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2015 - 10:01am PT
Couch, quit treating people like they're idiots.

Unassailable facts?


http://www.sltrib.com/home/2336694-155/former-federal-water-manager-proposes-tearing
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2015 - 10:08am PT
Hmmmm....that commissioner guy/author will be talking in Moab on Sat night
April 2 — Book reading and discussion at Back of Beyond Books, 83 North Main St., Moab, 6:30 p.m.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2015 - 10:26am PT
There must be thousands of poorly maintained, useless, environmentally destructive dams in the US.
There are probably a couple of hundred in California.
I know of at least three within 60 miles of me, two of which are being taken out and the habitats restored (on the Carmel river above Carmel Valley) and one which Stanford is stubbornly trying to keep (at the headwaters of San Francisquito Creek).
There are several home made dams on the San Lorenzo river that impede the spawning of Steelhead which used to be plentiful in the watershed and are now rare.
California Department of Fish and Game records disclose seven of these large recreational dams along the mainstem of the San Lorenzo River.
http://www.santacruzpl.org/history/articles/397/
One of the main San Lorenzo River tributaries springs forth a couple of hundred yards from my house. I've seen a few very small fish in the pools in the creek. So some fish are making the perilous journey. Take out the dams and within my lifetime I could go fishing for my dinner.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 29, 2015 - 10:27am PT
I like the idea of using hydropower. I'm with HT, we should be exploring the options of solar and wind power. Some of you "drainers" might want to think about the Navajo Coal Generating Station right next to Page, AZ. The stench of sulfur over the lake on a winter inversion is gross.

In my opinion the proposed Gondola in the Grand Canyon is a much more worthy fight than trying to tear down Glen Canyon Damn. More info here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2005084/Grand-Canyon-AZ-Gondola

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 29, 2015 - 10:31am PT
HT, did you say fish for dinner?

johntp

Trad climber
socal
Apr 29, 2015 - 10:35am PT
^^ Love that pic!
couchmaster

climber
Apr 29, 2015 - 11:34am PT
Bruce - sorry if I insulted anyone. Was teasingly saying with that post: "BRING YER FACTS". I suspected that despite the absence of them (not to denigrate anyone's previously posted well stated and plentiful emotional outbursts) they would soon enough show up and indeed Fred brought some. His Danish comment, while good, should come with an asterix noting that the flat land of Denmark does not readily lend itself to hydroelectric, at least that was my though last time I was there. I will admit to drinking in several brewery's (Tuborg and Carlsberg), and that might have not lent itself towards critical thought although it at least did lead to a decent tattoo. A brief bit of research would see that Euros had seen big damage done with coal plants. In fact they were in the process of wiping out their forests as the sh#t was killing all of the trees and point #2) We (the USA USA USA!) have craploads of coal, coal plants, and powerful Senators in Coal country to not soon see a repeat of what Denmark has achieved.

Sure we can all wish for wind. But if wishes were fishes that cat up there, who seems so comfortable and well traveled, would be in hog heaven.






ps, on this:
"I love the way you assume that everyone who thinks differently is uninformed."
I'm not sure why you would "love" that. Or even why you think I think that way. I'm only smart enough to know that I carry a deep biased ignorance on many issues: this is most assuredly one of them. However, regardless of my stupidity on the subject, I do find that I know more than most on it.



HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2015 - 11:51am PT
flat land of Denmark does not readily lend itself to hydroelectric
Odd, I'd considered editing my comment to include that.

As for your comments on coal, oil and gas fired power, you're spot on. These truly have to go first.
As for Glen Canyon dam. It definitely violates its beautiful surroundings and is doing the ecology of the river great harm. In 1996, 2004, 2008 and 2012 they did massive water releases precisely to try to flush the Colorado River downstream.
It's not clear whether they met their objectives as they've had to repeat the process.
We mess with Mother Nature at our risk as it's nearly impossible to anticipate the unwanted effects.
Much as wind turbines are a hazard to birds.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 29, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
If I was on a tirade to improve the environment of the Four Corners Area, this power plant pictured below would be in my target sights.


Hopefully some of the pictures I have posted on this thread will help people understand that Glen Canyon is neither "destroyed" or "ruined". I will agree that the ecosystem has been radically altered, but there are still a lifetime of wonderful sights to enjoy. I used to be a "drainer" until I made the time to spend a hundred nights on the lake and over forty nights on the river below the dam.

As a wilderness advocate, it truly sucks that such a wonderful canyon was inundated to serve our thirst for water and power. I just have a hard time understanding what good it would do to drain the lake. In the midst of a drought which has been going on for nearly two decades (and is expected to continue), can someone please explain the benefits of draining the lake?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 29, 2015 - 02:26pm PT

can someone please explain the benefits of draining the lake?

The self righteous can assuage their guilt and have a feel good moment.






Four corners and the coal slurry pipeline that feeds it operate off of local ground water and have severely impacted other ground water users as far away as the Mogollon rim.
couchmaster

climber
Apr 29, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
Quoted:
"In the midst of a drought which has been going on for nearly two decades (and is expected to continue), can someone please explain the benefits of draining the lake?"

I'll pitch a single possible shot. Don't know about the guilt assuagement that TGT discusses, although I'm all for less guilt in life. As you know, lakes and reservoirs increase the surface area which radically speeds up the evaporation process. Some estimates say 1 million acre feet lost per year at Powell reservoir. By eliminating the dam and speeding the water through you lower the water table, decreasing loss and possibly utilizing the water you have better. (I have not studied that, so don't quote me, thus the word "possible"). If Lake Mead drops enough, then the extra water is not "wasted" but will be used to power the Hoover Dam turbines. So it's might not necessarily be a net loss, and in fact you might have a gain if you can somehow capture and utilize the extra million acre feet a year. Certainly the fish would be happier, as would your cat:-) Although currently that Hoover dam power plant is still online, so that wouldn't occur for a while, and only be a factor if the drought continues.

But I think thats the best pitch against the dam.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 29, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
Slight thread drift, but related if you begin talk of dismantling coal plants and major dams:

Let's not forget the Dine (Navajo) who live in the area of Black Mesa, where the coal is being mined. They have been harassed and bullied by the coal companies for forty years or more, being told they need to move from their homes. My friends tell me there are armed guards patrolling their ancestral homelands on horseback and by motor vehicle.

tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 29, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
Until society is willing to pay for the higher cost of low impact electrical generation and to reduce our consumption of electricity, it's a moot point. IMHO the answer isn't more large scale electrical generation, no matter how "clean" the method. The answer is small local generation even if it is less cost effective.

Why waste more wild lands for solar plants, wind farms and power transmission lines when the side of every building could be used for solar panels, and the roofs topped with small turbines? And if more natural gas fired plants are required, why should it be in a remote area vs. integrated into cities and subburbs?
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 29, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
couchmaster that is an interesting stab at why people might want to dismantle the damnation in that the water might be better "utilized" downstream at Mead. Certainly the folks in the lower basin (i.e. CA) might be happier.

My perspective is that we need to protect what few remaining wild lands we have then tackle dam dismantling projects. Besides the gondola to one of the most special places on the Colorado Plateau, there are strong efforts to begin uranium mining on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, as well as a mega-development on the South Rim. Once we fvck a place up it is a lot harder to fix, let's keep a few places wild.

Paul - great ideas on the solar. I am all about power to the people not power to the multinational corporations.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 29, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
The Navajo power plant has to be seen from the air to be believed.
It casts a stream of gray air all the way across southern Colorado. It's visible pollution output is shocking. Then there are the invisible pollutants.
Next time I'm flying over it (unfortunately not on my flight next week) I'll try to get some pics.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 29, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
HT said;
In 1996, 2004, 2008 and 2012 they did massive water releases precisely to try to flush the Colorado River downstream.
It's not clear whether they met their objectives as they've had to repeat the process.


It was a con job.
The river runners were complaining about how all the beaches disappeared. This was because Lake Foul is a sediment trap. The water running into the Grand Canyon is cold and almost sediment free, so it picked up the sand washed into the river but hardly replaced it.

So they simulated floods to stir up what little sediment is there with less efficacy each time.

Until the sediment flows again the canyon will continue to be scoured.
10b4me

Social climber
Apr 29, 2015 - 05:40pm PT
The Navajo power plant has to be seen from the air to be believed.
It casts a stream of gray air all the way across southern Colorado. It's visible pollution output is shocking.

I read an article a few weeks ago about the power plant. Many Navajo oppose the power plant, unfortunately the powers that be(Navajo Nation government) signed off on another twenty year agreement. Ostensibly, because it provides employment for the local residents.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 29, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
NASA has captured some startling images of lake foul sediment trap.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/lake_powell.php

son of stan

Boulder climber
San Jose CA
Apr 29, 2015 - 10:17pm PT

So many just see problems. Never look beyond and see the opportunity
created.
That sediment is grade A clay for Navajo ceramic pottery.
http://www.kachinahouse.com/c-103-navajo-etched-pottery.aspx
couchmaster

climber
Apr 30, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
Albert said:
"My perspective is that we need to protect what few remaining wild lands we have then tackle dam dismantling projects. Besides the gondola to one of the most special places on the Colorado Plateau, there are strong efforts to begin uranium mining on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, as well as a mega-development on the South Rim. Once we fvck a place up it is a lot harder to fix, let's keep a few places wild."

Well spoken. In fact, having a pre-planned and agreed upon list of important projects would be a good way to start. Then taking the money that they would have to dump into tearing out the damn and putting in that hierarchically set list (most important on top) of important projects or issues would be the way to go. It would avoid a lot of waste.

Although I suspect that depending on who is drawing up the list, there would still be significant arguments. Keystone pipeline? Arctic drilling? Fracking?

I will say that I have more confidence in some of our leadership now than ever before. President Obama has made some superb Dept of Energy picks. (Chu, Munez) They are sharp honest fellas (ie, no Teapot Dome or Halliburton scandals) in addition to being "fair and balanced", have a balanced and deep knowledge of their field. :-) For instance: Secretary of Energy Munez, a Phd in Physics, has been personally involved in the nucular limits discussions with Iran.



the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 30, 2015 - 06:01pm PT

Damn this place is nice!

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
I love that last post couch master. If people would just remain civil past their initial head butt, common ground is often found. Leave it to an Oregonian... Peace bro. Smith Rocks forever.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 30, 2015 - 06:24pm PT

I haven't seen a condor yet on the lake, but lots of other aquatic fowl.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 30, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
I like what you wrote couchmaster. There are many battles going on against "the environment" right now.

I try to focus energy on conserving my backyard, that is the Colorado Plateau and surrounding lands. It seems to be a still plenty wild area with numerous issues facing their survival. I am certain that other readers around the world have their own sacred areas which might need some fore thought.

Just in case people missed my earlier sarcasm. It was horrible what happened to Glen Canyon when they made the decision to build the dam. Many believe it flooded one of the most special places on the planet. But there is still a lot of cool stuff left to see on the lake by anyone who is motivated. I encourage everyone to go check the place out at least once in their life.



Keep up the good fight.

Albert
couchmaster

climber
Apr 30, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
Right on Albert! (and thanks for the compliment Bruce although Smith Rock looks way different these days than you remember it:-)) MNot just more bolts, more people X 20. I think we all caught the nuances you were trying to portray Albert, and I think most of us would be in agreement if we were pause to reflect and consider it as a total picture, as you have. Like many things, black and white usually describe it less perfect than "grey", or "A little black, a bit less white" or vice versa.





the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 30, 2015 - 08:33pm PT

Sylvester has around 60 nights on the lake and has explored several dozen of its beaches.


I sincerely hope that everyone finds a wild place (or many) that they love.


the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 30, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
Did somebody say "slot canyon"?



I think Sylvester likes slot canyons, too.



Get out there and enjoy some wilderness wherever you might find it.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 1, 2015 - 07:15am PT
Calling Steve Grossman,..

I wrote an article about climbing at Lake Powell in the early '80s for Rock & Ice. It was titled Salvage Runs. The lake had just reached "full pool", it's max height.

(pretty much embodies Albert's perspective, except I took a dog named Crow, who I suspect was a far better and more willing swimmer than the cat)
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
May 1, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
We would go around a corner and spread out before us was this incredible sight that a) nobody had ever seen before b) nobody had touched it and c) it was utterly and incredibly beautiful.

Um, huh? Nobody meaning no white person? They uncovered artifacts from a civilization 700 years ago, but nobody had ever seen it? Was their cultural arrogance really all that different than the dam makers? Well we got some artsy nudes out of it anyway :-)

Crazy crazy idea in retrospect, like most of our ideas.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2015 - 05:39pm PT
This aggression will not stand,....man!
The Dude
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 3, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
I sure hope somebody can post up Ron's article about the lake from the early 1980s. Sounds cool.


After the Civil War, the government was looking to keep the war machine strong, so aimed their sights on the Navajo People. In 1864, thousand(s) of Navajo were forced at gunpoint, to walk to a camp in eastern NM in what some historians call "The Long Walk of the Navajo".

Stories tell us that some clans of Navajo hid out in "Navajo Canyon" during this assault by the US government. It is easy to imagine these people hiding out all over the area now smothered by Lake Powell.


the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 3, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
White man has arrived on scene.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 3, 2015 - 05:24pm PT
Hardly Visible

Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
May 3, 2015 - 10:16pm PT
Albert,

I really dig that you take Sylvester with you on your adventures.
Thanks for all the good pictures.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 4, 2015 - 09:29am PT
Thanks HV. One more for you before we head back up to the lake for a few days. The fishing has been incredible the last couple weeks.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 4, 2015 - 11:36am PT
Worth it just for the photos of the lake at full pool, something we're not likely to see for a long time indeed.

I think that they will keep the lake low to help avoid terrorism.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 4, 2015 - 11:43am PT
Last time I was there we went in to the Dangling Rope Marina for gas. The
nice young fellow whose name tag said Kiev, Ukraine was pleasantly surprised
when I chatted him up in Rooskie. As we walked away my bro-in-law chuckled
and wondered, "Would he have been so friendly if I told him my F-111's load
of nukes was destined for his home town?"
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 7, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
There are currently 3,521,453,909,454 gallons of water in Lake Powell!

http://lakepowell.water-data.com


the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 8, 2015 - 06:14pm PT


Get to Lake Powell if you get the chance. There are all sorts of ways to experience this magical place, from beach camping with a truck, kayaking, to the whole houseboat experience.



It just so happened while posting these pics this TOOL song was playing, enjoy!

"Ænema"

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see Armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of freaks

Here in this hopeless f*#king hole we call L.A.
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any f*#king time. Any f*#king day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona Bay.

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your Prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.

It's a bullshit three ring circus sideshow of freaks

Here in this hopeless f*#king hole we call L.A.
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any f*#king time. Any f*#king day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona Bay.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by fault lines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dip shits.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see Armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cause
I sure could use a vacation from this

Stupid sh#t, silly sh#t, stupid sh#t...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim. [3x]

Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to be.

Learn to swim.

F*#k L Ron Hubbard and
F*#k all his clones.
F*#k all these gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.

Learn to swim.

F*#k retro anything.
F*#k your tattoos.
F*#k all you junkies and
F*#k your short memory.

Learn to swim.

F*#k smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
F*#k these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cause I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom, please flush it all away.
I wanna see it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.
Bring it down
Suck it down.
Flush it down.

son of stan

Boulder climber
San Jose CA
May 8, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
It generates 1.3million kilowatts of electricity. That is a lot of money you want to take out of some corps pocket. And then the silt would go down
and fill up Las Vegas's reservoir. For now its protected somewhat by Glen.

What is the thinking here? Do you own shares in the Peabody Coal / Navajo Gen Station? They would have to expand. Increase profits. Double the amount of coal burning steam turbines. More smoke stacks and more smoke.
Leave the dam alone.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 8, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
We drove by the former site of Hite Marina last week on our way to hiking fun in SE Utah.

The former Hite marina is now about a mile from the river, (long concrete slab at center left), but we didn't see closed signs.


The ferry service across the lake is also closed, due to low water.


Yep! It's time to destroy the dam.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 9, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
For those of you who are hell bent on destroying the paradise that is Lake Powell, here is an interesting link:

http://www.glencanyon.org/media_center/map-tour
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 12, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
Long live the lake!

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 12, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
The Glenn Canyon institute also has photo libraries of what was lost and also the canyons and features that are now exposed due to the current low water levels.

http://www.glencanyon.org/media_center/photos
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 15, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
The Place No One Knew


There is still some left to see for the adventurous!

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 15, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
http://www.wildnesswithin.com/2000/00-3/bridge.html

from the foreword . . .

The Place No One Knew has a moral -- which is why the Sierra Club publishes it -- and the moral is simple: Progress need not deny to the people their inalienable right to be informed and to chose. In Glen Canyon the people never knew what the choices were. Next time, in other stretches of the Colorado, on other rivers that are still free, and wherever there is wildness that can be a part of our civilization instead of victim to it, the people need to know before a bureau's elite decide to wipe out what no man can replace. The Sierra Club has no better purpose than to try to let people know in time. In Glen Canyon we failed. There could hardly be a costlier peacetime mistake.

DAVID BROWER

Berkeley, California
March 13, 1963



"wherever there is wildness that can be a part of our civilization instead of victim to it…"

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 16, 2015 - 04:05pm PT
The lake is on the Spring rise! Water level is up almost two feet in the last ten days. This is great news for those of us who enjoy water.

http://lakepowell.water-data.com

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 16, 2015 - 04:34pm PT
Take out the dam and enrage fly fishing environmentalists who enjoy the worldclass trout fishing it has created.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
May 16, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
albert, i see and like what you're doing here. we have made mistakes. i love lake powell, it is prominent my plans for final days.
the bathtub ring is disturbing, but more of it hardly feels like redemption. sylvester seems to accept that which we cannot change, and i have respect for that perspective
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 16, 2015 - 05:56pm PT
Here's a link to an interesting N.Y. Times article on the subject of dropping water levels in Lake Fowell & Lake Mead.

Among other things it says this:

Studies now show that the 20th century was one of the three wettest of the last 13 centuries in the Colorado basin. On average, the Colorado’s flow over that period was actually 15 percent lower than in the 1900s. And most experts agree that the basin will get even drier: A brace of global-warming studies concludes that rising temperatures will reduce the Colorado’s average flow after 2050 by five to 35 percent, even if rainfall remains the same — and most of those studies predict that rains will diminish.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/us/colorado-river-drought-forces-a-painful-reckoning-for-states.html?_r=0

They are going dry folks.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 16, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
hooblie, we will see you out at the lake. Let me know when you make in there.


The fishing on the lake may not be "world class" like down below, but there is some damn good fishing on Lake Powell. I have caught seven different species of fish in one day as well as up to 30 landed in one day (been skunked many days, too). Two of my buddies caught over a hundred fish in one day last week, 5 different species of fish.



Guess what? Our own generation has the chance to totally duck up an incredibly wild and remote wilderness. That being the gondola to the confluence of the CR and LCR in the Grand Canyon. I understand the fact that a dozen millionaires stand the chance to earn millions more dollars, while providing low paying, menial jobs to a few dozen local workers. In the midst of a long-term drought it seems to me prudent to hold on to what water we can, while preserving one of the few remaining true wilderness areas in this country.

Read more about the Grand Canyon Escalade here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2005084/Grand-Canyon-AZ-Gondola




the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 16, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
Sylvester? Lake Cat?



Fritz, total agreement in that the lake is drying up. That water database link posted clearly shows how desperate the situation is becoming. I believe we are at around 44% of lake capacity.




Should we as a community spend a billion dollars destroying an important water reservoir in what appears to be the beginning stages of a drought not seen in millennium? Or should we hold on to what water we have and invest those funds in other renewable energy sources such as solar and wind?

As far as destroying wild places, let us not forget the Grand Canyon Escalade. Another topic of conversation is the massive development in Tusayan, on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 16, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
This reminds me of both the folks who want to destroy Glen Canyon Dam and those who want to build a tourist development in the heart of the Grand Canyon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW0j0smt8fY


ha, ha, enjoy.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 21, 2015 - 05:15pm PT
Thanks for the funny story, eKat. Sylvester hasn't started swimming, but he doesn't seem too afraid of the water.


Long live Lake Powell!

philo

Trad climber
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel or a tr
May 21, 2015 - 06:57pm PT
Survival I imagine this thread sure didn't go the way you thought it would.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 21, 2015 - 07:48pm PT

He's close to swimming, I bet if we spent more time there in the warmer months he would get into it.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 24, 2015 - 04:49pm PT

This photo was taken in one of the most accessible bays on the lake, easily reached by kayak or canoe or parts of it even on foot.

(Edit): There are lots of fish in this bay, too!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 24, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
Edit: there are lots of fish in this bay, too!

Native fish or aquaculture invasive species?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 24, 2015 - 05:08pm PT
Who cares about their provenance!

What do they taste like?

Does Sylvester approve?
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 24, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
I believe most of the game fish have been introduced to the lake. I'm guessing that would include Striped Bass, Small and Large Mouth Bass, and Walleye. There are a lot of fish to catch in Lake Powell!




Yes, Sylvester seems to enjoy the fish, especially hearts and sacs of fish eggs.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 24, 2015 - 08:20pm PT

Sylvester approves of this meal.
Got to love Lake Powell and its precious bounty!

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 30, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
There has been discussion on this thread of the coal mining and coal burning power plants.
This video looks at some of the issues in regards to coal mining on the Navaho reservation (related to this discussion because of the "Navajo Generating Station" located just outside Page, AZ which uses water from Lake Powell in its energy production).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F4uGCj6knVw


the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
May 30, 2015 - 08:04pm PT
"that (Navajo Generating Station and coal mining on the Rez) has made us economically dependent on our own cultural destruction"

short video discussing the issue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/06/coal-mining-navajo-nation_n_3397118.html


Keep Glen Canyon damn and its water.
Get rid of the coal mining and power plants.

Go solar! Go wind!

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Jun 7, 2015 - 06:12pm PT
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Jun 7, 2015 - 06:19pm PT
Lake Powell is one of the most unusual spots on the planet. We feel so blessed to explore the area. Everyone should at least take a peek into this magical lake.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Jun 9, 2015 - 08:41pm PT
Lake Powell can be a very dangerous place to explore as this group found out.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=35007255&nid=148

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Feb 28, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
There is talk of them closing down the power plant in Page in the next couple years.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Feb 28, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
has anyone ever found Ed Abbys Grave?? the lake... its been there long enough it is established... tearing it down probobly won't solve anything......
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Feb 28, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
Some environmental groups talk of tearing down the damn and filling Lake Mead instead. For many years I thought this was a grand idea, dismantling Glen Canyon Dam (draining Lake Powell).

Then I bought a small boat and my views shifted. I like the idea of large bodies of water in storage. I enjoy catching lots of fish. It's fun driving a boat through a slot canyon.

The power plant closure they discuss is a coal burning plant "Navajo Generating Station" which uses lake water to cool its machinery. I believe this plant is responsible for a fair amount of air pollution. I've been overwhelmed by other thoughts so hopefully others more informed can chime in.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mad69Dog

Ice climber
Feb 28, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
"He wrote the Monkey Wrench Gang, of course...and Hayduke Lives! as well."

Depends on who you believe. Some say that Ed's son finished Hayduke after Ed died.

http://www.abbeyweb.net/books/ea/hayduke_lives.html

Try on Desert Solitaire for more vintage Abbey.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Feb 28, 2017 - 08:04pm PT
I enjoy catching lots of fish.

Me too but can you tell a fake one from a real one?
That first photo upthread...that the 3 dudes are holding=fake.

"lake" foul.
"lake" pee.

They aren't lakes. Call 'em what they are.

And yeah Albatross I can see and understand why you'd dig those large reservoirs. Must be fun scooting around on them.

The price was (WAY) too high to pay for what they achieved though.
And it ain't going back for a long long time. Well at least until us humans are gone.

The paradise that was once Glen Canyon has already been raped and discarded.




the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 3, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
Thanks DD for pointing out the "fake fish" in the photo. It is my understanding the taxidermist did not have a suitable cast for a striper this large. I believe this was a replica of a 50 pound fish found floating 15 years or so ago.

I totally agree the damn thing totally changed the character of Glen Canyon. I am envious of the one or two folks I've met that saw it in its natural condition. I hope you believe me when I say I've spent many, many hours contemplating how much this incredible place has been altered. I wish it wasn't so,but it is and I have tried to make the best of the current situation. For a long time I thought it might be wise to tear down the damn, right now not so much. I would much prefer there be less golf courses and green lawns in Phoenix.

On a brighter note, closing the coal burning plant adjacent to the lake might be happening in the next couple years. I'm happy that the air will be cleaner and the fish healthier, and especially thinking about my Indigineous friends who live in the area that have been harassed for decades because of the coal under their home,
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Mar 3, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
Right on Albatross!

Funny about that fish though:-)
I'd be happy to hook into one even 1/2 that size!
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 3, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
BJ, from what I understand the town of Page and the land that NGS is on was all taken from land once given to the Dineh in treaties long ago. The coal mines are a bitter controversy from what my friends tell me they have been harassed by the coal companies for the last 50 years or so. This is for us to have electricity and heat in our homes.

DD, I've spent a couple hundred hours trolling around and spooning for a fish half this large, my personal best is around ten pounds, that pic a few posts above is my friend Chris with his eleven or twelve pounder.

It will be good if we all start burning less coal and harnessing more sun and wind energy. I do not believe the lies that solar and wind energy is not a viable option for our country.
Mad69Dog

Ice climber
Mar 4, 2017 - 05:03am PT
"I do not believe the lies that solar and wind energy is not a viable option for our country."

Me neither. Photovoltaics need a subsidy to keep growing because of the way fossil fuel sellers define "viable". Wind, in the right places, is totally viable, as is tide. In Europe, there has been success with sun generated steam electricity and you know the SW has more photon flux than Germany.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 4, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
BJ the coal for NGS comes via an electric train from Black Mesa on the Navajo Rez. The corporations who rule our country call it "clean coal". If you have ever been to Page on a bitter cold winter day under an inversion to witness the yellow cloud of smog you might question this "clean energy".

Many Dineh were forced from their anscestrol homes when coal was discovered here in the 1950s. The government and their sponsoring corporations created a fake controversy between the Hopi and Navajo tribes to hide the theft of this coal. I have been told the Dine feel that the coal acts as a filter for the earth (perhaps like charcoal in water filter) and that by taking it out of the earth and burning it we are doing harm to natural systems. Anyway, my friends that live on Black Mesa have been harassed by government agents for decades. This is so we can have electricity and more golf courses can be built in the desert. My friends believe they are victims of cultural genocide. So that we can have bigger homes, more pavement, more strip malls.


Google Navajo Big Mountain resistance if you are interested in learning more about the cultural genocide going on right now in our country.
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