Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Matt's
climber
|
|
just say no to aiding moonlight buttress bump!
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
"But if I keep blowing out the cracks, even my fat ass might be able to free it" bump
|
|
mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
Not that I climb sandstone but once a decade, but the one comment that probably should appear in this thread somewhere is, damage can be minimized clean aiding on cams and wires, but not really if you are camhooking, I would think. Leave those puppies at home.
Also, the best practice for the Nose is to fire as many 5.10 cracks free as you can, and it sounds from the comments here that Moonlight would be good for practicing that, even if you're aiding the 5.12+.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
Working (dogging, handing, yoyoing, ticking) a route IS aid. I understand ElCap's comment about the relative uniqueness of the climb. However, it's also unique in it's quality as a mellow aid route. If working, let along sending a lot hard route is fun, so is aiding the thing for someone who's just out for a little adventure. I climbed this probably 20+ years ago after having a few much harder El Cap routes under my belt, and I still had a blast.
|
|
Pie
Trad climber
So-Cal
|
|
since when is being a no talent bumblef*#k getting passed by two chicks freeclimbing on a wall a bad thing?
Happened to me on HD, they even tagged my rope up on the zig zags.
Prob the coolest thing ever. I know i'll never be great, just want to be good enough.
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
It's not that unique as a mellow aid climb. There's a great destination for clean aid like that just across the state and it has hundreds of C1 splitters like that. I highly recommend Luxury Liner, just as clean, possibly even more splitter and you don't even have to cross a river. I think a ST crew is even headed there next month so you can find a partner. Get on it!
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
Why do people keep saying climbing C1 is not good practice and won't prepare you for anything? Who ever said anything about practice or preparation? Maybe it's just fun to go up a big, cool rock on a sweet looking route? Why would climbing that have to be practice for something else?
|
|
tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
Why do people keep saying climbing C1 is not good practice and won't prepare you for anything?
Translation, we don't want those bumbly aid climbers clogging the route and getting in our way.
What we as a community have a hard time coming to terms with is that we have an impact on the rocks we climb. Sometimes the impact takes a long time to show up, some times it is quite evident. But whether it be chalk marks, lichen stripped off, holds broken, cracks widened from pins, hooks, cams nuts etc, we have an impact.
Once we come to terms with that, then we can discuss the other underlying theme of whether or not one group of climbers has more right to access a route or area than others. Having been stuck behind groups that were slow moving or perhaps were way over their heads, I can relate to the reaction of why are those bumblers hogging the route? I finally came to terms with the fact that if I wanted first on a route I'd need to just get up earlier and or visit popular lines during less popular times.
|
|
Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
|
|
That's not a Samantha Fox bump....
THAT is a Samantha Fox bump.
I hope to do Moonlight at some point. I will be aiding some of it, because I'm not good enough to free it all and have no desire to be.
Have fun, enjoy YOUR experience and be polite and respectful to others enjoying THEIR experience. If you aren't hooking and bashing, I really don't see how you are damaging the rock more then someone taking multiple whippers trying to free it.
|
|
rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
My rule is old farts always have priority over young guns. I started climbing in 1966 so in spite of my lameness my rights to climb out rank the 5.12 crowd. Thats my position and I'm sticking to it. Why just a couple of years ago I managed two bivies on the route. :) Gumby in tow its true ( hell I'm a gummby). We did hold up a 5.12 euro team for a couple of hours.... but then they got back at us after they passed by eating a hour out of our day and forcing the second bivy. Fair game in my book. Anyway we old farts with low-numbered membership cards will all be gone soon enough. Peace out.
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
Ok, we gotta end this false equivalency(I'm sure this statement will change many hearts and minds). Whippers do affect the rock, but there's a difference between chipping a jug every 20' on one or two pitches and chipping one every 6-8' for 6 pitches.
But hey, whatever allows you to have fun, just like climbing it in the rain, right😏
|
|
steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
|
|
Who the hell is whipping on aid?
Last time I was there (climbed Sheer Lunacy), it had rained a couple days before and been very lightly sprinkling a bit over night. It was overcast when we got to the parking, and it was supposed to be sunny later that day, so we decided giving it another day to dry out. So we went hiking, while the guy and his girlfriend waded across the river to "work" on freeing Moonlight Buttress.
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
Rockermike-
Sweet old school Forest haul bag!
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
Not many whip on aid, but they tend to weight every placement, and if you've done Sheer you know that's plenty to alter the climb.
As for your straw man free climbers, I've seen at least 3 aid parties on Moonlight in significant rain, so I guess aid climbers are doing 3X the damage to the climb due to poor decision making, right?
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
Average climbers, your existence annoys Trashman. Perhaps he can post when he intends to work a route so we can avoid troubling him with our presence.
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
Nope, don't tend post plans, good way to get gumbied(see W.L.s request for Kolob beta). Just offering an alternative viewpoint. The real answer, as shown By the Cerro Torre controversy is to let the older paradigm die off.
I've just always been curious about the attitude towards this climb vs other period test pieces. Aid ascents are a rarity on Astroman, Romantic Warrior, The Grand Wall, Rainbow wall, Scenic Cruise, and Ariana to name a few, but persist in this case. Ive always been curious why this is. Even Monkeyfinger, a classic at a similar grade(aid or free) in the same canyon is usually done as a free climb.
As I've already said, I don't expect this to change anyone's mind, just adding a different perspective so when today's 16yo googles moonlight beta they see that some do consider aiding it poor form(as the OP did). No skin off my nose, I've done the climbs I'm strong enough for in the main canyon and generally stay out or stick to obscurities now.
|
|
steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
|
|
We didn't send any rock down when we climbed Sheer Lunacy as I recall, so automagically attaching rock damage to clean aid is not really a good association, any more than it is to free climbing for that matter.
Sorta my point was that it's about people and their practices, not about how they climb in terms of aid or free.
And I've done the Rainbow Wall on aid.
|
|
crøtch
climber
|
|
I'd need to see evidence that clean aid on Zion sandstone is more damaging than free climbing before considering the matter settled. There's plenty of evidence of free climbing eroding sandstone cracks in the Creek. Perhaps dragging your taped hands and cammed toes through the crack is more erosive than weighting a cam every 4 feet. Who knows which practice displaces more grains of sand from the crack per attempt?
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
The independent free pitches on Moonlight are a whole world less damaged than the crux pitches. Of course, they see less traffic. However, there is none of the scarring, broken rock, etc. that you find on aid climbs of any level of traffic. Weighting every last placement with 100+ lbs through a metal contact does indeed f*#k the rock up, you've never even seen the desert if you think otherwise.
The thing that hurts Moonlight is that it's so easy as an aid route. There's no Harding slot, no Hollow Flake guarding the thing. The lowest and most incapable of the sport can get on the thing. The things these people do are generally more damaging, too - more bad placements, fewer free moves, larger haul bags, etc.
|
|
Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
|
|
I could see the point if folks were using cam hooks, hooks and pins on it still but that is not the case on moonlight. I have always just considered Moonlight as a beginner wall climb and an advanced free climb, advanced at least for me. Just like rockermike we got stuck behind a euro team forcing us to spend another night on the route which was no big deal, cant think of a better place to spend my time. It was impressive watching these euros take huge whippers on the dihedral pitch. I'll most likely never climb it again but I am glad I did, it's a great climb.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!