Moonlight Buttress no longer an Aid Climb?

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RP3

Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 30, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
I recently got into an internet slagfest on Facebook and thought I would draw on this supertopo's collective wisdom.

I recommended a friend of mine who lives in Las Vegas climb Moonlight Buttress to practice his cam jugging skills before he comes out here to Yosemite for his first shot at the Nose. A couple of individuals jumped all over me claiming that even clean aid is so destructive to Zion rock that, given how classic a free climb Moonlight Buttress is, people should stop aiding it.

I did Moonlight as an aid climb years ago as one of my first walls. I never heard anything about not aiding it until that moment. Additionally, I have very little experience on desert rock, and I appreciate and respect the need to preserve any delicate resource. I definitely do not want to give people beta that is against the accepted ethics or will damage fragile resources.

Is a free climbing actually the style this climb is supposed to be done in now? Or is this a piece of ethics that is stated by the elite free climbers and loudly repeated by idealistic beginners?
Josh Higgins

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 30, 2015 - 10:30pm PT
Moonlight Buttress is one of the few routes that I would say has converted to a free climb. People blast it in a matter of hours, and yes hangdogging cams up sandstone will destroy the crack in the long-term. Respect the resource. There are many many quality aid climbs, but there are few free climbs as perfect as Moonlight Buttress...

Josh Higgins

Edit: Moonlight Buttress is not for "elite" climbers. It is attainable for anyone who knows how to train properly and works full-time. Myself and a number of friends have given it proper free climbing attempts.
ryankelly

Trad climber
Bhumi
Jan 30, 2015 - 11:35pm PT
"friends have given it proper free climbing attempts."

well if you raise the bar to free climbing a delicate resource shouldn't you be able to onsite it so that you don't weight any of the cam lobes and destroy the crack?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jan 30, 2015 - 11:52pm PT
Like I ever get to touch sandstone, but it would be interesting to know if a climber at their limit taking whippers and hangs on gear while working to free the route would have similar impact as a new aid climber practicing clean aid?

Levy

Big Wall climber
So Cal
Jan 31, 2015 - 12:41am PT
Aid climb that mofo, clean aid is minimally harmful to the rock. If you're not hooking delicate features, or violently testing small nuts in thin placements, you'll be fine.
rurprider

Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
Jan 31, 2015 - 04:24am PT
+1....regarding Levy's comments. Aid climb that MFer. And ditto on RyanD's comments pertaining to whippers by climbers aspiring to free 5.12d damaging the sandstone more the putting body weight on a cam, nut, or camhook (5.9 C1+).
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 31, 2015 - 04:47am PT
Those who free Moonlight owe a debt of gratitude to all who have aided it before them, thus rendering it possible to free climb at all.
Prod

Trad climber
Jan 31, 2015 - 06:07am PT
I wonder how many of the people who are complaining about aiding it, can or have actually climbed it free? None here so far.

On a similar note I am curious if people still aid Astroman?

Prod.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Jan 31, 2015 - 08:08am PT
That thing is still a wall route Bro. Albeit a "clean" wall. Don't let those few egochumps convince you otherwise. Thats silly. Hanging on cams and hand placed pro isn't gonna destroy that crack.

Scott
The LG

Sport climber
Salt Lake City
Jan 31, 2015 - 08:33am PT
Being a resident of Utah and having put in free bids on routes in Zion I can speak to the sh*t quality of much of the rock in southern Utah. While much of the black patina sandstone is quite solid, once you break through the outer layer it's all just dirt. Just because it's a "wall" and it's been aid climbed doesn't mean that anything goes, if that's the case then I guess we can continue to pin scar the hell out of any route we like right? If you want to practice aid technique there are a hundred other routes in Zion that would be well suited for such an endeavor. Moonlight is a rare route that has risen to a higher standard and I think it's worth asking if you're wanting to actually climb the route in a good style or just to say that you've climbed it (despite the fact that your chosen climbing method might damage it). Now I'll be the first to say that taking a 20 foot whipper on cams in Zion is certainly not good on the rock. But in my limited experience, if you might fall in a few spots, that seems less harmful than hanging on every single piece/move up an entire 1200 ft wall, fingers are soft, metal is not. Long and short, times have changed and Moonlight is now more of a free route than an aid line. It's a personal question but we should always be asking ourselves what our motives are. Being good stewards of the land means that sometimes we don't go climbing.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 31, 2015 - 09:51am PT
Don'tcha hate it when a free climb ruins a perfectly good aid route?
ClimbingOn

Trad climber
NY
Jan 31, 2015 - 10:01am PT
If the natural progression of a route is to climb it in only the least harmful way that is has been climbed, then Moonlight should be regarded as only a free solo. The repeated sliding in and taking out of cams on sandstone wears grooves in the rock (for example, Supercrack). Now that Alex has soloed Moonlight, causing no damage at all, shouldn't that be the only way it is "allowed" to be climbed, following the logical train of the argument displayed on this thread?

To say that Moonlight should only be a free climb is an ego-driven argument. Just because one can one-up another's style of ascent does not mean that one has the right to condemn the other's style of ascent. Statistically speaking, only perhaps 1% of all climbers, at most, will ever be able to free Moonlight. It is an amazing climb in a great location. Aiding poses little real threat to the rock and I see no problem with the continued aid ascents it will doubtlessly receive this season, next season, and in all future seasons.
The LG

Sport climber
Salt Lake City
Jan 31, 2015 - 11:03am PT
That's part of the problem though, Zion isn't like most other rock. Having climbed all over the country (and world for that matter) I can objectively say that the vast majority of sandstone in Zion and the surrounding area is far and away the softest and most friable rock I've ever touched. My guess is that if Moonlight continues to see the traffic that it sees now, free climbing and aid, it will be a VERY different route in 15 years. Maybe that's the bigger issue? It is indeed a spectacular line in a gorgeous setting, perhaps though we shouldn't have free reign to climb it whenever we like regardless of the style.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jan 31, 2015 - 11:52am PT
I think the point here is that after I cross through a doorway and am allowed into a room, it should be closed behind me and kept closed.
Alex Baker

climber
Portland
Jan 31, 2015 - 11:55am PT
Claiming that you shouldn't be 'allowed' to aid moonlight or whatever seems like some elitist bullshit to me. Having been on the rig a few times it's hard for me to imagine that aid climbers cause any more damage than free climbers. Also, it's hard to imagine a better climb to learn how to aid climb on. It's basically as bomber as a bolt ladder, as aesthetic as it gets, short approach, easy walkoff, usually babes on top... the list goes on.

The hauling thing is interesting. For sure if you can haul it in 2 days, you could climb it in 1. But people want to practice, and I suppose moonlight would be good practice, if a bit crowded.

I think I've seen more free climbers than aid climbers up there. Not that people are necessarily sending, but they don't have aiders. The typical moonlight gig is to rap in, work some pitches, rap to the ground, and then spray about how aid climbing is bullshit :-).

Moonlight is amazing, and I'm sure 'ol RP3 could send it.

AB
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 31, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
Do whatever style of ascent you want, but you're basically a no talent bumblef*#k to be aiding on Moonlight, and you'll know it when you get passed by 2 chicks freeing the thing. It's too easy of an aid climb to prepare you for anything anyway, except to go bail off the Nose in the Stovelegs. If you want to aid and actually learn something, try one of the many other aid climbs in Zion, and do it IAD to learn some efficiency while you're at it, Zion is short.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 31, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
Not that people are necessarily sending, but they don't have aiders. The typical moonlight gig is to rap in, work some pitches, rap to the ground, and then spray about how aid climbing is bullshit :-).

Forgot to downgrade it. That sh#t would be 11+ in yosemite, even though I never climbed in zion, but might as well pissed all over it from the comfort of my couch. Lol.
I think it is a personal call. I would not climb it unless I was trying to free it, which at this point is highly unlikely. Maybe I can hang dog it on top rope. Wouldn't say a bad thing about anyone who aids it though. That rock is not mine.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 31, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Aid it but be mindful of those who are coming behind you. Their adventure is a valuable as yours.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Jan 31, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
Aid it. I did it last Fall and got stuck behind two parties of Germans trying to free it taking multiple whippers and spending hours on a single pitch yoyoing up and down from their last fall. I know for a fact they did way more damage whipping on nuts and cams while working their clean and free ascent than we did on our clean aid ascent. I love Zion and value it's rock but I'm pushing 50 and dont have any desire to crush 5.12 or 5.13. I just want to get outside and have fun and not take myself or my sport so serious that ruins the enjoyment that I have always found in it.

AID IT!!!!
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Jan 31, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
The nice thing about climbing is that there are no rules, but for me personally I'd feel pretty dumb inching up a splitter on bomber cams while other parties were free climbing around me. YMMV.
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