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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 30, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
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I recently got into an internet slagfest on Facebook and thought I would draw on this supertopo's collective wisdom.
I recommended a friend of mine who lives in Las Vegas climb Moonlight Buttress to practice his cam jugging skills before he comes out here to Yosemite for his first shot at the Nose. A couple of individuals jumped all over me claiming that even clean aid is so destructive to Zion rock that, given how classic a free climb Moonlight Buttress is, people should stop aiding it.
I did Moonlight as an aid climb years ago as one of my first walls. I never heard anything about not aiding it until that moment. Additionally, I have very little experience on desert rock, and I appreciate and respect the need to preserve any delicate resource. I definitely do not want to give people beta that is against the accepted ethics or will damage fragile resources.
Is a free climbing actually the style this climb is supposed to be done in now? Or is this a piece of ethics that is stated by the elite free climbers and loudly repeated by idealistic beginners?
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:30pm PT
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Moonlight Buttress is one of the few routes that I would say has converted to a free climb. People blast it in a matter of hours, and yes hangdogging cams up sandstone will destroy the crack in the long-term. Respect the resource. There are many many quality aid climbs, but there are few free climbs as perfect as Moonlight Buttress...
Josh Higgins
Edit: Moonlight Buttress is not for "elite" climbers. It is attainable for anyone who knows how to train properly and works full-time. Myself and a number of friends have given it proper free climbing attempts.
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ryankelly
Trad climber
Bhumi
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:35pm PT
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"friends have given it proper free climbing attempts."
well if you raise the bar to free climbing a delicate resource shouldn't you be able to onsite it so that you don't weight any of the cam lobes and destroy the crack?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:52pm PT
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Like I ever get to touch sandstone, but it would be interesting to know if a climber at their limit taking whippers and hangs on gear while working to free the route would have similar impact as a new aid climber practicing clean aid?
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Jan 31, 2015 - 12:41am PT
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Aid climb that mofo, clean aid is minimally harmful to the rock. If you're not hooking delicate features, or violently testing small nuts in thin placements, you'll be fine.
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Jan 31, 2015 - 04:24am PT
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+1....regarding Levy's comments. Aid climb that MFer. And ditto on RyanD's comments pertaining to whippers by climbers aspiring to free 5.12d damaging the sandstone more the putting body weight on a cam, nut, or camhook (5.9 C1+).
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Jan 31, 2015 - 04:47am PT
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Those who free Moonlight owe a debt of gratitude to all who have aided it before them, thus rendering it possible to free climb at all.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jan 31, 2015 - 06:07am PT
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I wonder how many of the people who are complaining about aiding it, can or have actually climbed it free? None here so far.
On a similar note I am curious if people still aid Astroman?
Prod.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jan 31, 2015 - 08:08am PT
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That thing is still a wall route Bro. Albeit a "clean" wall. Don't let those few egochumps convince you otherwise. Thats silly. Hanging on cams and hand placed pro isn't gonna destroy that crack.
Scott
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The LG
Sport climber
Salt Lake City
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Jan 31, 2015 - 08:33am PT
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Being a resident of Utah and having put in free bids on routes in Zion I can speak to the sh*t quality of much of the rock in southern Utah. While much of the black patina sandstone is quite solid, once you break through the outer layer it's all just dirt. Just because it's a "wall" and it's been aid climbed doesn't mean that anything goes, if that's the case then I guess we can continue to pin scar the hell out of any route we like right? If you want to practice aid technique there are a hundred other routes in Zion that would be well suited for such an endeavor. Moonlight is a rare route that has risen to a higher standard and I think it's worth asking if you're wanting to actually climb the route in a good style or just to say that you've climbed it (despite the fact that your chosen climbing method might damage it). Now I'll be the first to say that taking a 20 foot whipper on cams in Zion is certainly not good on the rock. But in my limited experience, if you might fall in a few spots, that seems less harmful than hanging on every single piece/move up an entire 1200 ft wall, fingers are soft, metal is not. Long and short, times have changed and Moonlight is now more of a free route than an aid line. It's a personal question but we should always be asking ourselves what our motives are. Being good stewards of the land means that sometimes we don't go climbing.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 31, 2015 - 09:51am PT
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Don'tcha hate it when a free climb ruins a perfectly good aid route?
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ClimbingOn
Trad climber
NY
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Jan 31, 2015 - 10:01am PT
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If the natural progression of a route is to climb it in only the least harmful way that is has been climbed, then Moonlight should be regarded as only a free solo. The repeated sliding in and taking out of cams on sandstone wears grooves in the rock (for example, Supercrack). Now that Alex has soloed Moonlight, causing no damage at all, shouldn't that be the only way it is "allowed" to be climbed, following the logical train of the argument displayed on this thread?
To say that Moonlight should only be a free climb is an ego-driven argument. Just because one can one-up another's style of ascent does not mean that one has the right to condemn the other's style of ascent. Statistically speaking, only perhaps 1% of all climbers, at most, will ever be able to free Moonlight. It is an amazing climb in a great location. Aiding poses little real threat to the rock and I see no problem with the continued aid ascents it will doubtlessly receive this season, next season, and in all future seasons.
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The LG
Sport climber
Salt Lake City
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Jan 31, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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That's part of the problem though, Zion isn't like most other rock. Having climbed all over the country (and world for that matter) I can objectively say that the vast majority of sandstone in Zion and the surrounding area is far and away the softest and most friable rock I've ever touched. My guess is that if Moonlight continues to see the traffic that it sees now, free climbing and aid, it will be a VERY different route in 15 years. Maybe that's the bigger issue? It is indeed a spectacular line in a gorgeous setting, perhaps though we shouldn't have free reign to climb it whenever we like regardless of the style.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 31, 2015 - 11:52am PT
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I think the point here is that after I cross through a doorway and am allowed into a room, it should be closed behind me and kept closed.
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Alex Baker
climber
Portland
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Jan 31, 2015 - 11:55am PT
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Claiming that you shouldn't be 'allowed' to aid moonlight or whatever seems like some elitist bullshit to me. Having been on the rig a few times it's hard for me to imagine that aid climbers cause any more damage than free climbers. Also, it's hard to imagine a better climb to learn how to aid climb on. It's basically as bomber as a bolt ladder, as aesthetic as it gets, short approach, easy walkoff, usually babes on top... the list goes on.
The hauling thing is interesting. For sure if you can haul it in 2 days, you could climb it in 1. But people want to practice, and I suppose moonlight would be good practice, if a bit crowded.
I think I've seen more free climbers than aid climbers up there. Not that people are necessarily sending, but they don't have aiders. The typical moonlight gig is to rap in, work some pitches, rap to the ground, and then spray about how aid climbing is bullshit :-).
Moonlight is amazing, and I'm sure 'ol RP3 could send it.
AB
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 31, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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Do whatever style of ascent you want, but you're basically a no talent bumblef*#k to be aiding on Moonlight, and you'll know it when you get passed by 2 chicks freeing the thing. It's too easy of an aid climb to prepare you for anything anyway, except to go bail off the Nose in the Stovelegs. If you want to aid and actually learn something, try one of the many other aid climbs in Zion, and do it IAD to learn some efficiency while you're at it, Zion is short.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 31, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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Not that people are necessarily sending, but they don't have aiders. The typical moonlight gig is to rap in, work some pitches, rap to the ground, and then spray about how aid climbing is bullshit :-).
Forgot to downgrade it. That sh#t would be 11+ in yosemite, even though I never climbed in zion, but might as well pissed all over it from the comfort of my couch. Lol.
I think it is a personal call. I would not climb it unless I was trying to free it, which at this point is highly unlikely. Maybe I can hang dog it on top rope. Wouldn't say a bad thing about anyone who aids it though. That rock is not mine.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jan 31, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
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Aid it but be mindful of those who are coming behind you. Their adventure is a valuable as yours.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jan 31, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
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Aid it. I did it last Fall and got stuck behind two parties of Germans trying to free it taking multiple whippers and spending hours on a single pitch yoyoing up and down from their last fall. I know for a fact they did way more damage whipping on nuts and cams while working their clean and free ascent than we did on our clean aid ascent. I love Zion and value it's rock but I'm pushing 50 and dont have any desire to crush 5.12 or 5.13. I just want to get outside and have fun and not take myself or my sport so serious that ruins the enjoyment that I have always found in it.
AID IT!!!!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Jan 31, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
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The nice thing about climbing is that there are no rules, but for me personally I'd feel pretty dumb inching up a splitter on bomber cams while other parties were free climbing around me. YMMV.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jan 31, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
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Caughtinside,thats kinda the funny thing, We were way faster than the free climbers. I think many of the so called free ascents take hours to work the crux pitches. Many can fire the pitches in good style but the Germans we were stuck behind were taking multiple falls while working the climb. If you can free it then free it, if you can't then aid it. It's a great climb either way.
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Jan 31, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
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I soloed aided it about 10 years ago, before there were a lot of free climbers on it. Then I did it again with a lady friend about two years ago and was really surprised by the amount of chalk and tick marks over ever inch of the route. Yes, chalk is not harmful to the rock like cams and nuts but it certainly took away from the aesthetic feel of it. Every ascent leave an impact, except maybe a no chalk no rubber free solo.
I, of course, agree with Mark. Respect the route and have your own adventure, just don't hook it!
It is such a great route and beautiful location it is a shame that some climbers claim it as there own and look down upon clean aid ascents.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 31, 2015 - 02:12pm PT
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Wasn't that thing soloed in like 80 minutes?
Soft sand stone combined with the fact that splitter cracks are the realm of free climbers tells me this should be done free. Why would you need to practice crack jugging? Get the new supertopo there are dozens of great routes there that aren't popular free routes, but your friends on Instagram may not know what they are... Why climb glorious finger cracks only to stuff cams in them instead?
I'm not a 5.12 climber but I would like to be and I would like to think that is attainable (it is) with a few hangs some day. Of course anyone can aid it, there are no rules, but why? To practice for yet another crowded wall? No offense but we don't spend 3 days nailing astroman, climbing moves forward. Feel free to aid moonlight and top rope the first pitch of the nut cracker and set up a tent under stem gem. You are allowed to. If that's why you climb...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 31, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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"It is such a great route and beautiful location it is a shame that some climbers claim it as there own and look down upon clean aid ascents."
I don't think all Aid ascents are equal... An older party who likely won't have a chance at freeing it in their lives and who have been wanting to do it since it was an aid route have a pass. Beginner wall climbers looking for practice routes do not.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jan 31, 2015 - 02:21pm PT
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Just do it, it's only climbing and not worth over thinking. As long as your not hooking or nailing it your not doing anymore damage than the average "free" ascent.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 31, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 31, 2015 - 09:51am PT
Don'tcha hate it when a free climb ruins a perfectly good aid route?
C'mon Brian, when has that ever happened. Aid climbers take priority and those "free sissies" can go pound sand. I hear Astroman is an even better beginners wall, just don't get your sack stuck in that slot.
FWIW, one of the first free ascentionists is on the record(on the Taco no less) saying the crux is a size and a half bigger since they did it. Those free climbers must be strong to pry the crack open like that.
An people wonder why no one wants to give up the goods on Kolob…
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Jan 31, 2015 - 02:50pm PT
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For the vast majority of climbers, Moonlight is an aid climb. And, I think it is debatable whether or not clean aid is less destructive, especially when people are not really ready to free it and take repeated whippers on the same piece of gear, possibly scrubbing footholds and such, stuff that is no problem on granite but really shouldn't be done on sandstone. Moonlight is an super-classic line, free or aid.
+1 that this smacks of elitism. It would be different if it was .10d instead of .12d. Then the climb would be available as a free climb to a far greater proportion of the climbing community. Numbers matter. Right now, there are still a lot more people for whom Moonlight is an aid climb.
This is an important discussion. I'm wondering if TokerVillan will chime in?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Jan 31, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
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.12d is hard but I wouldn't call it elite. Most of the climb is easier.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Jan 31, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
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... no talent bumblef*#k to be aiding on Moonlight, and you'll know it when you get passed by 2 chicks freeing the thing...
Wait... we are letting this misogynistic comment go by unwashed?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jan 31, 2015 - 04:01pm PT
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Maybe I'm from a different era, but I always think if you do a route in the same style or better as the FA it is legit. Standards and gear have changed things, but the FA sets the precedent.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 31, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
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WOW!! Really? That is one of the stupidest things I've read! ONE!
I won't stop anyone from doing it, and I think if you've been wanting to do it for some time now back when it was reasonable it isn't the same as treating it like some warm-up or outdoor gym.
This is called a 'grey area.' OP asked for the opinion of his peers - I gave it. No one is going to hand out tickets, just as someone camping on a porta-ledge on the rostrum would be met with nothing more than eye-rolls.
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LearningTrad
Trad climber
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Jan 31, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
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Send that rig braj!!!!11!!1
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 31, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
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Rap it. With a keg covered in reflectors. Get the freeclimbers drunk.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jan 31, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
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Ever since there was more than one climber its been a matter of "what I do is valid, what you do not so much." Same as it ever was. Have fun, don't be a jerk, come back alive. All the rest is gnashing and wailing.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 31, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
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If you are free climbing at that standard, there are not many routes available to you...in the country, much less just in Zion.
If you are aid climbing at that standard, there are a load of routes available to you, and many in Zion, of equal or superior quality, some a mere stone's throw away, that have not gone free, that see little traffic.
So it's mostly about a little courtesy for the fact that the free climber pushing their limits have few options compared to the aid climber, and the relentless aiding does change the route much quicker, not just considering 4' spaced, always weighted protection placements, but also all the dragging of boots and whatnot.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jan 31, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
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Off White has it right, have fun, don't be a jerk and come back alive.
Moonlight has history and is always going to be high on peoples tick list be it free or aid.
I'll be on Lunar Ecstasy and Space Shot in a few months, hopefully between now and then they dont become super popular free routes.
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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Jan 31, 2015 - 10:20pm PT
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Aiding up Moonlight Buttress is like beating off to Samantha Fox.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Jan 31, 2015 - 10:31pm PT
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^^^^^ We have a winner!^^^^
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Do whatever style of ascent you want, but you're basically a no talent bumblef*#k to be aiding on Moonlight, and you'll know it when you get passed by 2 chicks freeing the thing.
since when is being a no talent bumblef*#k getting passed by two chicks freeclimbing on a wall a bad thing?
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dirhk
Trad climber
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If you are free climbing at that standard, there are not many routes available to you...in the country, much less just in Zion.
If you are aid climbing at that standard, there are a load of routes available to you, and many in Zion, of equal or superior quality, some a mere stone's throw away, that have not gone free, that see little traffic.
Are you mental?
There are so many 5.12+ amazing free routes around. Many in Zion. The list just goes on and on and on. Squamish, Zion, Yosemite, the Black - they are full of em.
Now make a list of 10 pitch fully C1 routes that even come close to the aesthetic of moonlight.
Assuming I'm wrong, just think of the guys up there firing moonlight free telling the gumby aid climbers that moonlight is one of the few routes will properly challenge them. I bet the aid climbers would feel so bad for them. Those poor guys, so skilled that they are running out of stuff to do.
Most lame argument ever.
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Matt's
climber
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just say no to aiding moonlight buttress bump!
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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"But if I keep blowing out the cracks, even my fat ass might be able to free it" bump
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Not that I climb sandstone but once a decade, but the one comment that probably should appear in this thread somewhere is, damage can be minimized clean aiding on cams and wires, but not really if you are camhooking, I would think. Leave those puppies at home.
Also, the best practice for the Nose is to fire as many 5.10 cracks free as you can, and it sounds from the comments here that Moonlight would be good for practicing that, even if you're aiding the 5.12+.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Working (dogging, handing, yoyoing, ticking) a route IS aid. I understand ElCap's comment about the relative uniqueness of the climb. However, it's also unique in it's quality as a mellow aid route. If working, let along sending a lot hard route is fun, so is aiding the thing for someone who's just out for a little adventure. I climbed this probably 20+ years ago after having a few much harder El Cap routes under my belt, and I still had a blast.
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Pie
Trad climber
So-Cal
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since when is being a no talent bumblef*#k getting passed by two chicks freeclimbing on a wall a bad thing?
Happened to me on HD, they even tagged my rope up on the zig zags.
Prob the coolest thing ever. I know i'll never be great, just want to be good enough.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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It's not that unique as a mellow aid climb. There's a great destination for clean aid like that just across the state and it has hundreds of C1 splitters like that. I highly recommend Luxury Liner, just as clean, possibly even more splitter and you don't even have to cross a river. I think a ST crew is even headed there next month so you can find a partner. Get on it!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Why do people keep saying climbing C1 is not good practice and won't prepare you for anything? Who ever said anything about practice or preparation? Maybe it's just fun to go up a big, cool rock on a sweet looking route? Why would climbing that have to be practice for something else?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Why do people keep saying climbing C1 is not good practice and won't prepare you for anything?
Translation, we don't want those bumbly aid climbers clogging the route and getting in our way.
What we as a community have a hard time coming to terms with is that we have an impact on the rocks we climb. Sometimes the impact takes a long time to show up, some times it is quite evident. But whether it be chalk marks, lichen stripped off, holds broken, cracks widened from pins, hooks, cams nuts etc, we have an impact.
Once we come to terms with that, then we can discuss the other underlying theme of whether or not one group of climbers has more right to access a route or area than others. Having been stuck behind groups that were slow moving or perhaps were way over their heads, I can relate to the reaction of why are those bumblers hogging the route? I finally came to terms with the fact that if I wanted first on a route I'd need to just get up earlier and or visit popular lines during less popular times.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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That's not a Samantha Fox bump....
THAT is a Samantha Fox bump.
I hope to do Moonlight at some point. I will be aiding some of it, because I'm not good enough to free it all and have no desire to be.
Have fun, enjoy YOUR experience and be polite and respectful to others enjoying THEIR experience. If you aren't hooking and bashing, I really don't see how you are damaging the rock more then someone taking multiple whippers trying to free it.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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My rule is old farts always have priority over young guns. I started climbing in 1966 so in spite of my lameness my rights to climb out rank the 5.12 crowd. Thats my position and I'm sticking to it. Why just a couple of years ago I managed two bivies on the route. :) Gumby in tow its true ( hell I'm a gummby). We did hold up a 5.12 euro team for a couple of hours.... but then they got back at us after they passed by eating a hour out of our day and forcing the second bivy. Fair game in my book. Anyway we old farts with low-numbered membership cards will all be gone soon enough. Peace out.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Ok, we gotta end this false equivalency(I'm sure this statement will change many hearts and minds). Whippers do affect the rock, but there's a difference between chipping a jug every 20' on one or two pitches and chipping one every 6-8' for 6 pitches.
But hey, whatever allows you to have fun, just like climbing it in the rain, right😏
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Who the hell is whipping on aid?
Last time I was there (climbed Sheer Lunacy), it had rained a couple days before and been very lightly sprinkling a bit over night. It was overcast when we got to the parking, and it was supposed to be sunny later that day, so we decided giving it another day to dry out. So we went hiking, while the guy and his girlfriend waded across the river to "work" on freeing Moonlight Buttress.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Rockermike-
Sweet old school Forest haul bag!
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Not many whip on aid, but they tend to weight every placement, and if you've done Sheer you know that's plenty to alter the climb.
As for your straw man free climbers, I've seen at least 3 aid parties on Moonlight in significant rain, so I guess aid climbers are doing 3X the damage to the climb due to poor decision making, right?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Average climbers, your existence annoys Trashman. Perhaps he can post when he intends to work a route so we can avoid troubling him with our presence.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Nope, don't tend post plans, good way to get gumbied(see W.L.s request for Kolob beta). Just offering an alternative viewpoint. The real answer, as shown By the Cerro Torre controversy is to let the older paradigm die off.
I've just always been curious about the attitude towards this climb vs other period test pieces. Aid ascents are a rarity on Astroman, Romantic Warrior, The Grand Wall, Rainbow wall, Scenic Cruise, and Ariana to name a few, but persist in this case. Ive always been curious why this is. Even Monkeyfinger, a classic at a similar grade(aid or free) in the same canyon is usually done as a free climb.
As I've already said, I don't expect this to change anyone's mind, just adding a different perspective so when today's 16yo googles moonlight beta they see that some do consider aiding it poor form(as the OP did). No skin off my nose, I've done the climbs I'm strong enough for in the main canyon and generally stay out or stick to obscurities now.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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We didn't send any rock down when we climbed Sheer Lunacy as I recall, so automagically attaching rock damage to clean aid is not really a good association, any more than it is to free climbing for that matter.
Sorta my point was that it's about people and their practices, not about how they climb in terms of aid or free.
And I've done the Rainbow Wall on aid.
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crøtch
climber
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I'd need to see evidence that clean aid on Zion sandstone is more damaging than free climbing before considering the matter settled. There's plenty of evidence of free climbing eroding sandstone cracks in the Creek. Perhaps dragging your taped hands and cammed toes through the crack is more erosive than weighting a cam every 4 feet. Who knows which practice displaces more grains of sand from the crack per attempt?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The independent free pitches on Moonlight are a whole world less damaged than the crux pitches. Of course, they see less traffic. However, there is none of the scarring, broken rock, etc. that you find on aid climbs of any level of traffic. Weighting every last placement with 100+ lbs through a metal contact does indeed f*#k the rock up, you've never even seen the desert if you think otherwise.
The thing that hurts Moonlight is that it's so easy as an aid route. There's no Harding slot, no Hollow Flake guarding the thing. The lowest and most incapable of the sport can get on the thing. The things these people do are generally more damaging, too - more bad placements, fewer free moves, larger haul bags, etc.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I could see the point if folks were using cam hooks, hooks and pins on it still but that is not the case on moonlight. I have always just considered Moonlight as a beginner wall climb and an advanced free climb, advanced at least for me. Just like rockermike we got stuck behind a euro team forcing us to spend another night on the route which was no big deal, cant think of a better place to spend my time. It was impressive watching these euros take huge whippers on the dihedral pitch. I'll most likely never climb it again but I am glad I did, it's a great climb.
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crøtch
climber
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Maybe a better comparison than the initial Moonlight free pitches would be something like The Headache which gets more free traffic and is straight in crack like the upper pitches of Moonlight. The edges of the Headache crack have rounded. I don't remember if it is podding out from feet.
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SweetWilliam
Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
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Gumbie aids climber can go do the spaceshort Prodigal touchstone asnd all them other c1/c2. they been freed too cept for prodigal and are just as cool aid climbs but free dudes aint callin them all off limits cause the hard free climbings not all that good on them and wouldn't change too much anyway since the hard stuff is variations mostly than wont get aided and the other pitches are like 5.10 where some cam wear don't change how hard the free climbing is cause a handcrack is a fukin handcarck even if it gets a 1/8inch wider. the hard free climbing on moonlight is world fukin class and its one of the best five free climbs in the USA.
My dad is pretty old and he two hung it on a free attempt and his partner whos almost 60 three hung it. no talent people callin themselves climbers can go up some opther no talent required route. all you old guys tell us we are think were entitled blah blah blah and then make all these entitled excuses why it ok for you to fuk up on eof the best free climbs in the country so you entitled self can standing slings all the way up it for a trophy that real climbers laugh at. get a clue gunmbys.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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We are talking rock climbing right?? The selfish sport that means nothing in the grand scheme of things that the rest of the world could give a rats ass about who climbed what and how hard it was or how young or old you are. Go climb, have fun and don't be a dick.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Hey SweetWilliam,
You have obviously neglected your education long enough to be able to free climb Moonlight. Now maybe you should put some time into grammar so people will take you somewhat seriously. Because that was flat out hard to read.
Prod.
Gumbie aids climber can go do the spaceshort Prodigal touchstone asnd all them other c1/c2. they been freed too cept for prodigal and are just as cool aid climbs but free dudes aint callin them all off limits cause the hard free climbings not all that good on them and wouldn't change too much anyway since the hard stuff is variations mostly than wont get aided and the other pitches are like 5.10 where some cam wear don't change how hard the free climbing is cause a handcrack is a fukin handcarck even if it gets a 1/8inch wider. the hard free climbing on moonlight is world fukin class and its one of the best five free climbs in the USA.
My dad is pretty old and he two hung it on a free attempt and his partner whos almost 60 three hung it. no talent people callin themselves climbers can go up some opther no talent required route. all you old guys tell us we are think were entitled blah blah blah and then make all these entitled excuses why it ok for you to fuk up on eof the best free climbs in the country so you entitled self can standing slings all the way up it for a trophy that real climbers laugh at. get a clue gunmbys.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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If you must I think just do it in a day. Don't bivy, and just rally. That'll get you ready for bigger stuff.
I think Space shot and Touchstone are better candidates however. They have harder aid and more freeclimbing. Which is not only more fun, but also more akin to what the nose offers.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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That'll get you ready for bigger stuff. A Moonlight IAD effort will put you in the middle of the Stovelegs, maybe lower.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I know JLP. Check my edited post.
The problem with aid climbers on ML is that once they hone in on that route all others fall into the shadows and fall away (I experienced the same blinder effect years ago). Since then I've focused on freeing walls there like sheer and monkey finger in hopes of prepping game to step back to ML for a free bid.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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By this thought no more aiding the nose or the salathe
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Or, by the prevailing logic here, Serenity should still be a wall style aid route.
No one is denying there's a spectrum with easily freed routes at one end and rarely freed routes at the other end.
Thanks for the reducto absurdum though. Combined with the earlier straw man arguements we only need an incidence of Godwin's law to get a "stereotypical Internet arguement flush"
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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If someone want to go up and aid Serenity, cleanly of course, they are full within their rights to do so. Get there behind them? Tough sh#t, wake up earlier.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Both aid and free climbing damage sandstone. Sandstone cracks widen, edges round, and pods for feet get larger with repeated free ascents, ultimately making some free sections harder while others get easier.
Does anyone have the right to go aid MB? Sure. They could also go aid Serenty crack or the Naked Edge on a Saturday morning.
But as climbers and friends, we need to be respectful of each other and the stone.
I would personally stay off MB altogether as an aid route so it gets preserved as a quality free route.
But if I really really really HAD to do it, I would pick a season when it would be unlikely visited by free climbers.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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I've never climbed sandstone and after reading this thread it sounds scary! Does the stuff just fall apart every time a cam or hand or foot touches it?!?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Yeah, and every time it rains, snows, gets cold, hot, and the wind blows.
I'll bet darn few folks who "free" Moonlight do so onsite. Even Honnlove rehearsed it a few times before he soloed it.
Now that its been free soloed...?
Slippery slope. Slippery loose sandstone slope.
Its a great route, free, aid, or, "fraid".
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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I've never climbed sandstone and after reading this thread it sounds scary! Does the stuff just fall apart every time a cam or hand or foot touches it?!?
Not all sandstone is the same. NRG sandstone is bulletproof. Super hard.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Man always kills the thing he loves.
Moonlight is doomed by its own success.
I am one of the most gentle clean aid climbers but there is still wear. On the other hand free screamers cause the most impact (to route AND climber).
I would say the key is to be proficient, either free or aid. If you are a gumby STFOff! You will just get in the way of those who are proficient.
If fact the gumbies should show consideration for others by gaining proficiency on the less popular routes.
If you can't do Touchstone or Moonlight or Prodigal or Sheer Lunacy or Space Shot or Monkeyfinger in a day then you should practice until you can.
People should not be hauling on these routes creating drag trails that threaten our activity long term.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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^^^^^^^
Libertarian gets elitest. lol
And that from a man who has probably damaged more rock than anyone else on supertopo ( given your forte of hard desert aid climbs... or so I understand). :) peace out ( I'm saying this with a smile on my face)
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brian benedon
Trad climber
tucson
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that does it, I'm going back for another run. Sorry, anything over 5.10 gets aided.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Apr 10, 2015 - 06:40am PT
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This is an interesting topic to me for a few reasons.
1. It is very climbercentric. To anyone else from the ground or 20 feet away this line is unchanged. Yes historical pictures most likely show wear, but to the casual observer it would not be obvious.
2. If it were not for aid clumbers, this would not be a free line, as is the case with many aid climbs. So why do the few capable now out rank the masses who made it available to them?
3. Who has more rights to the climb. A aid noob struggling his way up C1 in a cluster f*#k of rope, or a 5.11c climber taking repeated whippers on it? Or an aid team looking to get it done in a few hours vs a solid team of free climbers?
4. As mentioned many times here, what about other aid lines, and historic aid lines. At what point does a climb become just a free climb. It is a sliding scale but it does happen.
I'm still undecided, but I don't think there is a black or white here.
Cheers,
Prod.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 10, 2015 - 06:46am PT
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If one must aid there way up Moonlight Buttress, do it with stealth, like a black man going shopping for groceries.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 10, 2015 - 07:10am PT
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DMT for the win;)
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Apr 10, 2015 - 07:42am PT
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2. If it were not for aid clumbers, this would not be a free line, as is the case with many aid climbs. So why do the few capable now out rank the masses who made it available to them?
I'd quibble with this one. This climb doesn't really rely on pin scars, that's part of the issue. Obviously it's hard to say if the changes from Lowe's and other early ascents affected the free-ability of the line, but modern consensus seems to be that similarly to the Jardine traverse, the would have gone free, even in pristine condition.
Edit to add, I'm referring to the cruxes here, I'm not sure how much the nutting pitch relies on scars, but judging by the size of the placements I'd guess that there were useable features there prior to early nailing attempts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2015 - 08:19am PT
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There is a difference between being elitist and simply being polite and considerate of others.
For somebody to say, "I have every right to aid this route, and I really want to do a wall bivy, so I'm going to haul and take my sweet time about it." is incredibly selfish considering the popularity of the route.
Drag trails are a serious problem. Some are visible from a kilometer away. If as climbers we don't show more self discipline and restraint eventually the NPS will say "No more."
So I am not being elitist, merely practical.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2015 - 08:55am PT
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Oh, and rockermike, while I have altered my share of soft rock and then some, I am not a big time banger tending towards nuts and bolts.
I have not left little drilled holes stuffed with mud like somebody we know of.
If I have altered rock it is with the intent of making a durable enjoyable route rather than a death trap.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Apr 10, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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I'd quibble with this one. This climb doesn't really rely on pin scars, that's part of the issue. Obviously it's hard to say if the changes from Lowe's and other early ascents affected the free-ability of the line, but modern consensus seems to be that similarly to the Jardine traverse, the would have gone free, even in pristine condition.
Edit to add, I'm referring to the cruxes here, I'm not sure how much the nutting pitch relies on scars, but judging by the size of the placements I'd guess that there were useable features there prior to early nailing attempts.
I did not know that. Thanks.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 10, 2015 - 09:43am PT
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It's obvious. The route is now Class Three.
Leave your gear behind, it will ruin the route.
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alleyehave
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 10, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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It appears I might be the minority here. I aided ML a couple years back and feel that it should and is going the way of Astroman in terms of free-only terrain. I don't climb 5.12 and don't know if I ever will. However; looking at it objectively, there is blatant wear and tear on ML from clean aid. In particular the upper pitches with perfect cam pods. Different than pin scars and unlike anything else i've seen except on Zion sandstone. Sure, this has likely been contributed to by free climbers whipping, but I doubt to the extent of repeated weighted placements.
We were surrounded by parties free climbing the route. No one complained about us, we let parties pass, we ended up bivying an extra night because of it. To me it was insanely inspiring but awkward.
With that being said, I would not recommend ML as an aid route to anyone, and would suggest many others. Climbing is evolving and changing, as is the rock.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 10, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
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If it were not for aid clumbers, this would not be a free line, No. A lack of scars, rounded edges and a return to the original crack width in the highest wear sections would add a letter, two at most - 12d, 13a tops.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Apr 10, 2015 - 11:50pm PT
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I don't have strong feelings about this one way or another. I aided it once and probably won't again.... but I'm curious.... what percentage of climbers can trad climb 12c? My wild ass guess would be 1 percent. But I actually have no basis for that guess. And of course it depends on how you define climber. Lets say anyone who has led at least 20 pitches of trad in their life. ie. gym climbers and strictly sport climbers don't count.
Anyone want to take a guess?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 11, 2015 - 04:41am PT
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i would be willing to bet that 99% of the folks free climbing this have a strong sport background? If it gets free climbed daily I would not aid climb it. If it gets free climbed a few times a year then its still predominatly an aid climb.
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Spanky
Social climber
boulder co
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Apr 11, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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I think it pretty arrogant to tell people they can't aid a route like moonlight. Its a clean aid route and quibbling about the relative difference in wear between aid versus free climbing parties is a real grey area in addition to being totally silly. Its really just an elitist attitude to say that if you can't climb the route in the style that I have decreed is right than you can't climb the route at all.
Will we get to the point that climbers have to sign a document saying they will only take 10 falls or less to ensure they don't damage the rock. If we really want to not change the rock we should close it completely.
The fact is Moonlight is a trade route and I would bet a lot of us (myself included) aided the route as one of our first walls. That doesn't mean that because we're badass now and we don't need a sweet C1 route to learn on that we have the right to tell others what to do. Where exactly are new wall climbers going to learn if not on a route like moonlight, spaceshot or the like? I figure as long as people climb it clean (no pins or cam hooks) and take of all their trash that they can do what they want free or aid. Yeah it would be sweet if routes like moonlight and the nose were pristine and we could all have an experience on that route like people did in the 60"s but trade routes get climbed and the passage of people in any style takes its toll eventually.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 11, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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There are literally dozens of more obscure routes in Zion that can be used for clean aid practice, bivies even.
Routes like those that I suggested that people do in a day are Zion's gems and using them to "learn how" results inevitably in ankle biting, the most wasteful form of impact. They should be showplaces where the proficient execute their talents without being obstructed by whiny self-entitled inconsiderate gumbies.
Nothing wrong with paying your dues. I did.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Apr 11, 2015 - 11:02am PT
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I figure as long as people climb it clean (no pins or cam hooks) and take of all their trash that they can do what they want free or aid.
But why draw the line there. Just because you were able to climb it clean, why should others have to? It's C1 in dry conditions, but if it rains on your ascent, or the day before a few well placed pins would certainly add a bit of piece of mind to those tiny cam placements.
All ascents have an impact. It's unlikely that the park service will do any kind of regulation in the near term(next 5 years). I'm just curious about how and why the climbing community will self regulate in that time frame.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 11, 2015 - 11:08am PT
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It's obvious. The route is now Class Three.
Leave your gear behind, it will ruin the route.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
It goes boys... Lynn Hill
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AAA
Big Wall climber
The great America!
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Apr 11, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
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GUYS COMEON
Clearly aiding moonlight is a problem. This is the solution, we bolt the entire thing into a sport climb so we no longer have to be worried about damaging the crack. Then the aid noobers can stick clip their way up the A0 to the summit, and the 5.11 trad euro noobs can hangdog and whip the bolts instead of the crack. Win win. Also, for every one person who say moonlight is free only, I am going to climb it on aid four times.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 11, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
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what percentage of climbers can trad climb 12c?
Whatever the percentage is, there's a non-stop stream of them from all over the world every week on Moonlight. I'd guess maybe a 10-20% success rate, not too unusual for the grade.
Bolt it all? I'm cool with that, placing widgets is an over-rated pain in the ass. The small cams you need for this rig are pretty comparable in weight to draws anyway and the placements are as butt-obvious as a bolt.
As I said earlier, get after it if aiding is your thing. It's just that you're presenting yourself to the climbing world as a no-talent bumblef*#k. As an aid climber, you have no hope either. Go aid Astroman instead, at least you'll be forced out of your aiders once or twice and have to use a couple A2 placements.
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WallMan
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 13, 2015 - 02:03pm PT
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There are literally dozens of more obscure routes in Zion that can be used for clean aid practice, bivies even.
Ron - can you please share a list? Perhaps that would give some of us not so much in the know a chance to spread out and climb some of the lesser known Zion routes.
I own Zion Climbing: Free and Clean. Surely a good list of obscurities could be gleaned from that source. I would still be very interested in seeing a list of Piton Ron recommended Zion obscurities.
Wally
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 13, 2015 - 05:39pm PT
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fun 2 clean aid
Tourist crack
The Pulpit
Alpine Start
Cynthia's Hand Job (guidebook location wrong, go 100+m N)
half the routes on the W side on the Practice Cliffs and several on the east
Organasm
Master Blaster
Fracture Line
on the low practice cliffs just S of Pine Creek's mouth; Krakatoea, Blockbuster, even the 5.9 routes can be aided
And you don't have to look hard to find a bunch more.
I just wish people would get their skillz down before clogging a popular wall.
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WallMan
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 14, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
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Cool - thank you Toker!
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 24, 2016 - 09:39am PT
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bump
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Nov 22, 2016 - 07:44am PT
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