Moonlight Buttress no longer an Aid Climb?

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Trashman

Trad climber

SLC

Apr 10, 2015 - 07:42am PT

2. If it were not for aid clumbers, this would not be a free line, as is the case with many aid climbs. So why do the few capable now out rank the masses who made it available to them?

I'd quibble with this one. This climb doesn't really rely on pin scars, that's part of the issue. Obviously it's hard to say if the changes from Lowe's and other early ascents affected the free-ability of the line, but modern consensus seems to be that similarly to the Jardine traverse, the would have gone free, even in pristine condition.

Edit to add, I'm referring to the cruxes here, I'm not sure how much the nutting pitch relies on scars, but judging by the size of the placements I'd guess that there were useable features there prior to early nailing attempts.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Apr 10, 2015 - 08:19am PT

There is a difference between being elitist and simply being polite and considerate of others.

For somebody to say, "I have every right to aid this route, and I really want to do a wall bivy, so I'm going to haul and take my sweet time about it." is incredibly selfish considering the popularity of the route.

Drag trails are a serious problem. Some are visible from a kilometer away. If as climbers we don't show more self discipline and restraint eventually the NPS will say "No more."

So I am not being elitist, merely practical.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Apr 10, 2015 - 08:55am PT

Oh, and rockermike, while I have altered my share of soft rock and then some, I am not a big time banger tending towards nuts and bolts.
I have not left little drilled holes stuffed with mud like somebody we know of.

If I have altered rock it is with the intent of making a durable enjoyable route rather than a death trap.

Prod

Trad climber

Apr 10, 2015 - 09:15am PT

I did not know that. Thanks.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Apr 10, 2015 - 09:43am PT

It's obvious. The route is now Class Three.

Leave your gear behind, it will ruin the route.

alleyehave

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Apr 10, 2015 - 11:09am PT

It appears I might be the minority here. I aided ML a couple years back and feel that it should and is going the way of Astroman in terms of free-only terrain. I don't climb 5.12 and don't know if I ever will. However; looking at it objectively, there is blatant wear and tear on ML from clean aid. In particular the upper pitches with perfect cam pods. Different than pin scars and unlike anything else i've seen except on Zion sandstone. Sure, this has likely been contributed to by free climbers whipping, but I doubt to the extent of repeated weighted placements.

We were surrounded by parties free climbing the route. No one complained about us, we let parties pass, we ended up bivying an extra night because of it. To me it was insanely inspiring but awkward.

With that being said, I would not recommend ML as an aid route to anyone, and would suggest many others. Climbing is evolving and changing, as is the rock.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Apr 10, 2015 - 12:47pm PT

If it were not for aid clumbers, this would not be a free line,

No. A lack of scars, rounded edges and a return to the original crack width in the highest wear sections would add a letter, two at most - 12d, 13a tops.

rockermike

Trad climber

Berkeley

Apr 10, 2015 - 11:50pm PT

I don't have strong feelings about this one way or another. I aided it once and probably won't again.... but I'm curious.... what percentage of climbers can trad climb 12c? My wild ass guess would be 1 percent. But I actually have no basis for that guess. And of course it depends on how you define climber. Lets say anyone who has led at least 20 pitches of trad in their life. ie. gym climbers and strictly sport climbers don't count.

Anyone want to take a guess?

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Apr 11, 2015 - 04:41am PT

i would be willing to bet that 99% of the folks free climbing this have a strong sport background? If it gets free climbed daily I would not aid climb it. If it gets free climbed a few times a year then its still predominatly an aid climb.

Spanky

Social climber

boulder co

Apr 11, 2015 - 09:56am PT

I think it pretty arrogant to tell people they can't aid a route like moonlight. Its a clean aid route and quibbling about the relative difference in wear between aid versus free climbing parties is a real grey area in addition to being totally silly. Its really just an elitist attitude to say that if you can't climb the route in the style that I have decreed is right than you can't climb the route at all.
Will we get to the point that climbers have to sign a document saying they will only take 10 falls or less to ensure they don't damage the rock. If we really want to not change the rock we should close it completely.

The fact is Moonlight is a trade route and I would bet a lot of us (myself included) aided the route as one of our first walls. That doesn't mean that because we're badass now and we don't need a sweet C1 route to learn on that we have the right to tell others what to do. Where exactly are new wall climbers going to learn if not on a route like moonlight, spaceshot or the like? I figure as long as people climb it clean (no pins or cam hooks) and take of all their trash that they can do what they want free or aid. Yeah it would be sweet if routes like moonlight and the nose were pristine and we could all have an experience on that route like people did in the 60"s but trade routes get climbed and the passage of people in any style takes its toll eventually.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Apr 11, 2015 - 10:53am PT

There are literally dozens of more obscure routes in Zion that can be used for clean aid practice, bivies even.

Routes like those that I suggested that people do in a day are Zion's gems and using them to "learn how" results inevitably in ankle biting, the most wasteful form of impact. They should be showplaces where the proficient execute their talents without being obstructed by whiny self-entitled inconsiderate gumbies.

Nothing wrong with paying your dues. I did.

Trashman

Trad climber

SLC

Apr 11, 2015 - 11:02am PT

I figure as long as people climb it clean (no pins or cam hooks) and take of all their trash that they can do what they want free or aid.

But why draw the line there. Just because you were able to climb it clean, why should others have to? It's C1 in dry conditions, but if it rains on your ascent, or the day before a few well placed pins would certainly add a bit of piece of mind to those tiny cam placements.

All ascents have an impact. It's unlikely that the park service will do any kind of regulation in the near term(next 5 years). I'm just curious about how and why the climbing community will self regulate in that time frame.

Big Mike

Trad climber

Apr 11, 2015 - 11:08am PT

It's obvious. The route is now Class Three.

Leave your gear behind, it will ruin the route.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

It goes boys...

Lynn Hill

AAA

Big Wall climber

The great America!

Apr 11, 2015 - 07:05pm PT

GUYS COMEON

Clearly aiding moonlight is a problem. This is the solution, we bolt the entire thing into a sport climb so we no longer have to be worried about damaging the crack. Then the aid noobers can stick clip their way up the A0 to the summit, and the 5.11 trad euro noobs can hangdog and whip the bolts instead of the crack. Win win. Also, for every one person who say moonlight is free only, I am going to climb it on aid four times.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Apr 11, 2015 - 07:49pm PT

what percentage of climbers can trad climb 12c?

Whatever the percentage is, there's a non-stop stream of them from all over the world every week on Moonlight. I'd guess maybe a 10-20% success rate, not too unusual for the grade.

Bolt it all? I'm cool with that, placing widgets is an over-rated pain in the ass. The small cams you need for this rig are pretty comparable in weight to draws anyway and the placements are as butt-obvious as a bolt.

As I said earlier, get after it if aiding is your thing. It's just that you're presenting yourself to the climbing world as a no-talent bumblef*#k. As an aid climber, you have no hope either. Go aid Astroman instead, at least you'll be forced out of your aiders once or twice and have to use a couple A2 placements.

WallMan

Trad climber

Denver, CO

Apr 13, 2015 - 02:03pm PT

There are literally dozens of more obscure routes in Zion that can be used for clean aid practice, bivies even.

Ron - can you please share a list? Perhaps that would give some of us not so much in the know a chance to spread out and climb some of the lesser known Zion routes.

I own Zion Climbing: Free and Clean. Surely a good list of obscurities could be gleaned from that source. I would still be very interested in seeing a list of Piton Ron recommended Zion obscurities.

Wally

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Apr 13, 2015 - 05:39pm PT

fun 2 clean aid

Tourist crack
The Pulpit
Alpine Start
Cynthia's Hand Job (guidebook location wrong, go 100+m N)
half the routes on the W side on the Practice Cliffs and several on the east
Organasm
Master Blaster
Fracture Line
on the low practice cliffs just S of Pine Creek's mouth; Krakatoea, Blockbuster, even the 5.9 routes can be aided

And you don't have to look hard to find a bunch more.

I just wish people would get their skillz down before clogging a popular wall.