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crøtch
climber
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Maybe a better comparison than the initial Moonlight free pitches would be something like The Headache which gets more free traffic and is straight in crack like the upper pitches of Moonlight. The edges of the Headache crack have rounded. I don't remember if it is podding out from feet.
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SweetWilliam
Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
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Gumbie aids climber can go do the spaceshort Prodigal touchstone asnd all them other c1/c2. they been freed too cept for prodigal and are just as cool aid climbs but free dudes aint callin them all off limits cause the hard free climbings not all that good on them and wouldn't change too much anyway since the hard stuff is variations mostly than wont get aided and the other pitches are like 5.10 where some cam wear don't change how hard the free climbing is cause a handcrack is a fukin handcarck even if it gets a 1/8inch wider. the hard free climbing on moonlight is world fukin class and its one of the best five free climbs in the USA.
My dad is pretty old and he two hung it on a free attempt and his partner whos almost 60 three hung it. no talent people callin themselves climbers can go up some opther no talent required route. all you old guys tell us we are think were entitled blah blah blah and then make all these entitled excuses why it ok for you to fuk up on eof the best free climbs in the country so you entitled self can standing slings all the way up it for a trophy that real climbers laugh at. get a clue gunmbys.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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We are talking rock climbing right?? The selfish sport that means nothing in the grand scheme of things that the rest of the world could give a rats ass about who climbed what and how hard it was or how young or old you are. Go climb, have fun and don't be a dick.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Hey SweetWilliam,
You have obviously neglected your education long enough to be able to free climb Moonlight. Now maybe you should put some time into grammar so people will take you somewhat seriously. Because that was flat out hard to read.
Prod.
Gumbie aids climber can go do the spaceshort Prodigal touchstone asnd all them other c1/c2. they been freed too cept for prodigal and are just as cool aid climbs but free dudes aint callin them all off limits cause the hard free climbings not all that good on them and wouldn't change too much anyway since the hard stuff is variations mostly than wont get aided and the other pitches are like 5.10 where some cam wear don't change how hard the free climbing is cause a handcrack is a fukin handcarck even if it gets a 1/8inch wider. the hard free climbing on moonlight is world fukin class and its one of the best five free climbs in the USA.
My dad is pretty old and he two hung it on a free attempt and his partner whos almost 60 three hung it. no talent people callin themselves climbers can go up some opther no talent required route. all you old guys tell us we are think were entitled blah blah blah and then make all these entitled excuses why it ok for you to fuk up on eof the best free climbs in the country so you entitled self can standing slings all the way up it for a trophy that real climbers laugh at. get a clue gunmbys.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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If you must I think just do it in a day. Don't bivy, and just rally. That'll get you ready for bigger stuff.
I think Space shot and Touchstone are better candidates however. They have harder aid and more freeclimbing. Which is not only more fun, but also more akin to what the nose offers.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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That'll get you ready for bigger stuff. A Moonlight IAD effort will put you in the middle of the Stovelegs, maybe lower.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I know JLP. Check my edited post.
The problem with aid climbers on ML is that once they hone in on that route all others fall into the shadows and fall away (I experienced the same blinder effect years ago). Since then I've focused on freeing walls there like sheer and monkey finger in hopes of prepping game to step back to ML for a free bid.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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By this thought no more aiding the nose or the salathe
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Or, by the prevailing logic here, Serenity should still be a wall style aid route.
No one is denying there's a spectrum with easily freed routes at one end and rarely freed routes at the other end.
Thanks for the reducto absurdum though. Combined with the earlier straw man arguements we only need an incidence of Godwin's law to get a "stereotypical Internet arguement flush"
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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If someone want to go up and aid Serenity, cleanly of course, they are full within their rights to do so. Get there behind them? Tough sh#t, wake up earlier.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Both aid and free climbing damage sandstone. Sandstone cracks widen, edges round, and pods for feet get larger with repeated free ascents, ultimately making some free sections harder while others get easier.
Does anyone have the right to go aid MB? Sure. They could also go aid Serenty crack or the Naked Edge on a Saturday morning.
But as climbers and friends, we need to be respectful of each other and the stone.
I would personally stay off MB altogether as an aid route so it gets preserved as a quality free route.
But if I really really really HAD to do it, I would pick a season when it would be unlikely visited by free climbers.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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I've never climbed sandstone and after reading this thread it sounds scary! Does the stuff just fall apart every time a cam or hand or foot touches it?!?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Yeah, and every time it rains, snows, gets cold, hot, and the wind blows.
I'll bet darn few folks who "free" Moonlight do so onsite. Even Honnlove rehearsed it a few times before he soloed it.
Now that its been free soloed...?
Slippery slope. Slippery loose sandstone slope.
Its a great route, free, aid, or, "fraid".
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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I've never climbed sandstone and after reading this thread it sounds scary! Does the stuff just fall apart every time a cam or hand or foot touches it?!?
Not all sandstone is the same. NRG sandstone is bulletproof. Super hard.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Man always kills the thing he loves.
Moonlight is doomed by its own success.
I am one of the most gentle clean aid climbers but there is still wear. On the other hand free screamers cause the most impact (to route AND climber).
I would say the key is to be proficient, either free or aid. If you are a gumby STFOff! You will just get in the way of those who are proficient.
If fact the gumbies should show consideration for others by gaining proficiency on the less popular routes.
If you can't do Touchstone or Moonlight or Prodigal or Sheer Lunacy or Space Shot or Monkeyfinger in a day then you should practice until you can.
People should not be hauling on these routes creating drag trails that threaten our activity long term.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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^^^^^^^
Libertarian gets elitest. lol
And that from a man who has probably damaged more rock than anyone else on supertopo ( given your forte of hard desert aid climbs... or so I understand). :) peace out ( I'm saying this with a smile on my face)
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brian benedon
Trad climber
tucson
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that does it, I'm going back for another run. Sorry, anything over 5.10 gets aided.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Apr 10, 2015 - 06:40am PT
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This is an interesting topic to me for a few reasons.
1. It is very climbercentric. To anyone else from the ground or 20 feet away this line is unchanged. Yes historical pictures most likely show wear, but to the casual observer it would not be obvious.
2. If it were not for aid clumbers, this would not be a free line, as is the case with many aid climbs. So why do the few capable now out rank the masses who made it available to them?
3. Who has more rights to the climb. A aid noob struggling his way up C1 in a cluster f*#k of rope, or a 5.11c climber taking repeated whippers on it? Or an aid team looking to get it done in a few hours vs a solid team of free climbers?
4. As mentioned many times here, what about other aid lines, and historic aid lines. At what point does a climb become just a free climb. It is a sliding scale but it does happen.
I'm still undecided, but I don't think there is a black or white here.
Cheers,
Prod.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 10, 2015 - 06:46am PT
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If one must aid there way up Moonlight Buttress, do it with stealth, like a black man going shopping for groceries.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 10, 2015 - 07:10am PT
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DMT for the win;)
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