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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Well, I'm inclined to agree with High Traverse on this one. It sounds like the important basics were covered. It could have turned out to be a great experience for the child. Children can be raised with to many fences, to many fears.
I grew up with to much fear. It impacted my life long term. Things like, "Don't touch the wall electrical plates." Like touching the plate cover could kill you. I never dreamed of putting anything in the plate slits, because that would be a kid Armageddon. I grew up thinking electricity jumped out at you and fried you if you even got close.
Another don't was don't get near the edge you'll fall off and die. Consequently heights and I were never friends, they terrified me.
My husband turned rock climber did his best to free me from fear and I honor him for this, along with his patience and never giving up on me. Our 5 year old son and 8 year old daughter actually climbed Joshua Tree's "Walk on the Wild Side" for the TV program "That's Incredible" many years ago. I was freaked, but Dan and friends helped the kids pull it off. The kids not only survived, but had fun and it gave them a lot of life skills for their future.
If the person going out on the ocean with their child planned well and took all precautions then good for them. Your kiddos can die in a car wreck at any given time even with car seats and the most safe of vehicles.
One must live.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Kids die or get hurt all the time because their parents let them do stuff. or they get lost when they wander out of the campground at J-Tree and cause enormous searches.
Does this mean we should keep our kids in bubbles? I hope not. I don't know the family or enough of the details to judge this. I wouldn't say there's no case where taking a 1 year old would be OK. Sounds more like these folks were a bit unlucky and a bit unprepared. But that doesn't mean what they did was totally inexcusable.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Thanks, Kos.
Give your family a big hug from me. Kids may not remember me, but your wife will. We share a wonderful sense of clothes savy. :) lynnie
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jstan
climber
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Parents are not responsible to us for anything. We can approve or disapprove but we have no legal
standing in the question. And as always, how things turn out can be a matter of chance.
Has anyone pointed out this voyage gave the kids an opportunity to
"feel really alive"? On a climbing site I would be surprised if this has not been suggested.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Yeah, I'm sure that one year old will have nothing but the fondest memories.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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I took my son local sailing when he was 2 years old. He slept most of the trip and puked on my hat. But hey, I had fun!
Agree that taking a one year old was poor judgment. 5 years old would have been more appropriate. Even then, I could not imagine being in the drink with a toddler. That keeps me off the high seas with my son. Their trip was selfish.
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TimH
Trad climber
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The boat was the only casualty, and it was sunk on purpose.
Wonder if they submit an insurance claim? Or does naval gunfire to eliminate a hazard to navigation count as "hostile action"?
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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I would be more afraid of pirates then illness out sailing in certain places.
Was skiing at Mammoth last weekend and saw a Dad skiing with a tiny infant strapped to his chest. That seemed dangerous to me but oh well, who am I to judge.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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^^^ What Karen said
A 36' boat in big seas is a gamble. This is not at all true. It all depends on the design of the boat, how well prepared it is and how skilled the crew is.
My wife and I have been in full gales in the North Pacific for days at a time in our 30 footer which had been designed and built specifically for ocean cruising. Sure, at first it was a bit frightening and definitely mind focusing. Reefing the sails in the middle of the night in 40 knots of wind and 15 foot breaking seas was dammed hard work. We got tired of being damp and walking on the bulkheads when below deck, otherwise No Big Deal.
We have met many people who've sailed the big oceans and circumnavigated on boats under 40 feet. The most dangerous seas I've encountered have been 5 - 20 miles off the California Coast between Ano Nuevo and Fort Bragg. Many other Bay area sailors will say the same.
The boat in question was a Hans Christian 36, also specifically designed for long distance ocean sailing. Many of them have circumnavigated without trouble. There are well known weather windows for long distance sailing. They've been recorded and published for over 100 years. This family was leaving at the right time and taking the best route to the South Seas. They specifically would not meet hurricanes/typhoons. We took much the same route at the same season ourselves.
Actually 36' is an ideal size because the bigger the boat the more work it takes to manage her in rough weather. 36' is still small enough for two people to manage in any conditions. Big enough for two adults and two children.
Remember, this family's troubles had nothing to do with sea state, seamanship, boat preparation or the boat itself. The child could have been 12 or an adult of 30 with the same illness and result. The Navy would have come to the aid of anyone in the same situation, and have done hundreds of times. Just as they have rescued dozens of experienced and well prepared climbers and hikers and just plain dammed fools in Yosemite and Sierra Nevada in the past.( Thanks Chief )
I don't believe this family did anything reckless or unduly endangered their children.
This is all a tempest in a teacup exploded out of proportion by the sensationalist media.
(yeah, it makes a good story ... until the uninformed slander and innuendo get whipped up)
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I would have loved growing up like that. One year old, five year old, what's the difference?
There have always been tons of children that were and are being raised in horrible situations. This wasn't one of those.
The voyage itself isn't THAT dangerous. There is a big blue water cruising scene these days, and they had all of the good SOS equipment. So they used it. The same thing could have happened in an off the grid cabin during an Alaskan winter.
As for putting the rescuers at risk, I don't buy that crap. I've never been around climbers on SAR who didn't pray for a rescue or long search. It is challenging and the way to make your living.
I see people judging others harshly all of the time. Talk is cheap.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Agree with High Traverse....!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Yeah, me too. Well said.
I continued BASE and did one El Cap route after my son was born.
For me, I had a couple of close calls and decided to hang it up. Man, that decision made my life miserable. You know, being responsible. I was much happier hanging my ass out in the breeze, but I would make the same decision today.
It had more to do with working full time and providing for my family than anything else. I continued to have adventures. They were just adventures that I could manage.
I took my son to ANWR when he was 11. It was great. If we had been mauled by a bear or needed help, I'm sure that a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks would have chimed in with their so-called expertise.
Judging people is not a good past time. It really rubs me the wrong way.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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In general, I think people go about passing judgment when they have no business or standing to do so. I clearly remember all the disapproving stares for all of the actions someone else deemed were irresponsible. When you view cultural approval and disapproval with a long term lense, it is interesting.
Years ago, no one had seat belts, and children stood in the car while it was moving. We all did it. Years ago, I worked while pregnant, ran while pregnant, and in general according to various people around me was totally irresponsible about my child's well being. Today we know that active woman have healthier babies than sedentary woman.
I will not judge these people. I encourage people to take their kids into the world early and often. I don't understand the need to go on witch hunts. The sole purpose seems to be to feel morally superior to another. Don't get me started on rescue----the ambulance comes when the obese, diabetic smoker has chest pains and does not pass judgment on their deservedness for medical treatment and transport. We don't respond to fires only at the homes of people who do not smoke or barbeque.
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Sanskara
climber
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People suffer at the hand of much worse parents ever day.
Between 1-2 I watched my drunk father beat the living sh#t outa my mother. It was the 70's back when a woman would call the cops on her husband and the cops would tell you sorry mam!
Between 2-3 mom and dad got divorced. Dad got visitation rights, to torment my mother he would pick me up then park square in front of our house where he would leave me strapped in my car seat in his van screaming while he blast Led Zeppelin and drink with his buddies. Why because he knew it killed my mother that she had to give him visitation rights and there was not a dam thing she could do about it. Again it was the 70's the cops didn't give a f*#k.
By 3 mom was now working two jobs to survive taking care of us on her ow as dad never payed child support. I am told like clockwork every night when she came to pick me up from my grandparents after work at like 9-10 pm I would have a grilled cheese or PB&J sandwich waiting for her as I was worried she must be hungry.
We survived life is great now, look at my pictures!
Yeah lots of people had it a lot worse than we did.
Ever watch the show Shamless on Showetime?
That's not just TV, people really live that way. Sadly I saw it growing up..
The two kids on the boat had it made. Two parents engaging in life with them. Not sitting at home, not working their lives away hating each other to death worked to the bone just to survive. Mad at one another for all the sacrifice..
Who are we to say right from wrong..
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Sanskara
climber
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Seamstress
I like the last part of what you had to say. About the ambulance coming to pick up the obsess person or the smoker or the well the list goes on and on and on..
I often think the same thing when the average person complains about the affordable care act and It costing them money. Most often it is some overweight outa shape person that either smokes, drinks or eats like sh#t.
In my view from where I stand being über healthy and taking the best care if myself call it "preventative care" if you will. Myself and every other person that makes it a priority to mind there health had been paying inflated health care cost our whole dam lives as a result of those that drink, smoke, over eat and or just eat like sh#t.
Payback is a bitch!
Yeah we definitely should not pay for that rescue ;)
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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^^^ But not who wipes it
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
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Very interesting discussion. As a long time off shore,short handed sailor I'm betwixt and between my thoughts about young children on board a long passage. Yet, as HT has mentioned, it does happen...and successfully. I've known families whose only home is their boat and their children were born on it, or at least it was their "birth home". I think HT and Sal have provided some great insights from an off shore perspective. They do have survival suits for children...these were not custom made.
Susan
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Wow, I didn't know we had so many knowledgeable and experienced sailors on board ST.......
There appears to be many questions here but people seemed most upset with the actual fact of taking small children to sea.
From what I can tell, the boat, a well known and tested blue water passage maker, was well outfitted, the parents had enough sailing background to safely make the passage from Mex to the Marqueses and the subsequent medical emergency and rescue is what has everyone so fired up and boiling over with condemnation.
Irresponsible parenting, I don't think so.
Save all the discussion about the actual rescue hullabaloo and cost for another day. This topic alone will probably get people axed from ST. I do find it funny that few have ventured into that gray area of climbing rescues and costs and let alone dads and kids and Grade 6 walls and......................Micronut took a plunge but no one took the bait.
High Traverse, in my humble opinion, has expressed the most logical and intelligent summary of sailing offshore and the inherent responsibilities required of family and boat. Cruising with children is not a novelty. There are hundreds of responsible and qualified families out there sailing.
I am sure it will be no surprise to anyone on ST but I can't find a better scenario than raising a child on a boat and traveling the world. That is my humble opinion.
Irresponsible opinion. Quite possibly so but then again many of you climb so where is the confusion.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Babies on boats? That's preposterous. Everyone knows you keep them under the stairs until they are 18... unless you can sell them.
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Sanskara
climber
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Guido,
If that is not enough girl the neigh sayers I dint know what is.
Beautiful life you live, what an example for us all!
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