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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 7, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
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When I was a little kid spending my summers on Martha's Vineyard, my parents would wake up every morning and at 6:30 we'd drive the mile to Katama Beach to have the heavy surf all to ourselves. We'd swim for 10-15 minutes and then go for breakfast.
We were total shark meat.
My dad bought a .458 magnum and said he was going to take me on safari in Africa.
He never did, but I dreamed big and became a rock climber.
At 14 I spent my fifth summer away from home, this time climbing in the Alps.
Were the Kaufmans irresponsible, or raising super T-types?
I'd feel better if they had rescue insurance instead of making US pay for it.
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John M
climber
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no real cost. All of that would go under a training mission. Those guys train regularly. Real life makes it more interesting.
Save a navy rescue squad from boring training missions
Risk something..
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Those lubbers shouldn't have gone out of sight of land. The Navy sank the
boat as it was a hazard to navigation. Hell, it was a hazard sitting at the dock.
signed,
Cap'n Pissgums
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Such rescues seem a fine use of the Navy's personnel and resources. Nothing wrong with doing service for those in need...
... they should not have to pay a dime, they likely have already paid a boatload of taxes into the Navy's budget.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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let's see
heading out in a 38 foot sailboat with your one year old daughter for a trip around the world...
daughter gets very sick
luckily, a US warship is within range and embarks on the rescue
and if the warship was not within range?
your daughter dies because you are 900 miles out in the ocean with no help available
but shouldn't adults pursue their dreams even if their children can be in danger?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Last year I read about a little girl being killed in an auto accident as she was being driven by her mother to the pediatrician.
No one ever said mom there was irresponsible subjecting her kid to that, even though everyone knows driving is one of the most dangerous things people can do.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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But, Chaz, was she 900 miles from land?
And I'm sure she got billed for the ambulance ride so wasn't the DE an ambulance?
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John M
climber
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everyone should just stay home. Dang those early pioneers for risking their kids lives.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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There are things in life worse than death. Kudos to them for trying to live outside the box
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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What's next, running with the bulls and yer one year old?
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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What's next, running with the bulls and yer one year old? No, but maybe you and I could, Reilly! We can run just as fast as a one year old and then we could brag about it.
Dumbshits....
TY
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Exactly, they wanted to live outside the box and... Didn't take into account that before the age of five, kids are extremely fragile. People today are so use to modern medicine taking care of them that they don't realize that before the 1940, one out of three kids simply didn't LIVE, they died early from various illnesses and the occasional accident. It's why some parents don't understand the concept of risk, don't immunize their kids, give birth outside of hospitals, (granted giving birth usually doesn't need much but when something goes wrong, you usually have only a fifteen minute window to fix it) plus they don't keep an eye on them in dangerous public places and wham... Are so shocked that hey... The kid actually got hurt, sick, DIED. How did that happen?
Yes, I am presently thinking of a kid today I saw in an extremely crowded restaurant who was running around unsupervised that ran into a waitress with a full pot of Hot Coffee. Poor girl burned herself than spill it on the kid that deserved it.
Are those parents guilty of stupidity? Yes... Should they pay for it? No idea really about that. I do know one simple fact, the kid doesn't deserve being a victim of their stupidity and I am happy that they Navy stepped in and saved the child. Doing less is inhumane. Oh and the kid that I mentioned deserved getting burned... Well, yeah, the coffee should have landed on one of it's parents. That would have made perfect karmatic sense.
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overwatch
climber
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Nice visual of parents running with the bulls with babies in rucksacks
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Sanskara
climber
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I sure as hell wouldn't do it with my child.
Sh#t it took me 2 full years to leave my dogs alone for even one night after getting them at 8 weeks old. True story! I can't imagine what I would be like as a parent and here is to never finding out?!
Still each to his own., stupid decision, " But like, that's like my opinion man" ;) the big L for those they set not fans.
We all pay for each other at some point in life/country, actually we all do it everyday. That's how this country works they are called taxes. You really think you are gonna do a dam thing about it. Theses people's taxes payed for this rescue a zillion times over and had you been stupid enough to do what they did it seems your tax dollars woulda gotten you out this pickle also..
It's like paying car insurance and never getting in an accident and lots of people do just that. Who wins the instance agent. I think secretly many think they are for some reason entitled to be the insurance company.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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I was wondering when this would come up. While a bit torn on the subject, I vote for irresponsible. Taking a one year old on a 38' sailboat on an around the world "cruise" reeks of stupidity to me.
My father sailed a bit and once ran into a big storm in the gulf of Mexico with a larger boat (don't know the size but I'm thinking around 50'). He tells me there were several times they nearly rolled. The boat would right itself due to the keel weight, but the consequences could be serious.
What say you seagoat?
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Kudos to them for trying to live outside the box
Live outside the box? I can't imagine anything more pedestrian than what they were doing and how theye did it.
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Old_Duffer
Trad climber
Lake Arrowhead
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3 CRITICAL POINTS HERE: So first of all; kudos and thanks to the rescuers, second; one year old at sea on a small craft on the way to the south seas?; I DO think that is very irresponsible. As a parent that would have loved to take my kids on such an adventure; I would have waited until they were at least 9 years old and frankly I think 16 would have been the best age. Finally, aren't we happy that when the NBC article spoke of payment for rescues; they mentioned hikers, skiers and hunters BUT NOT A SINGLE ROCK CLIMBER !!! It is a rare time that rock climbers aren't unjustifiably singled out for rescue costs.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sick-baby-rescued-sea-who-pays-mission-n74001
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Another case of "pursuing a dream" without considering the consequences to others.
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Dal Maxvill
Social climber
Granite City, Illinois
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We constantly prayed for more dumbasses like these supposed responsible parents to fk up.
Really? You wished evil on people? You wanted bad things to happen to children?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nothing bad happened to anybody.
The boat was the only casualty, and it was sunk on purpose.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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If you read their blogs, they're clearly not stupid, they're just way over their heads for a first passage, particularly when so much time (normally used for R&R) has to be devoted to parenting. I outlined six things that made me pause when reading their respective blogs:
First off, Force 5 winds are your standard tradewinds. They're no big deal. In fact, an HC36 needs 20 kts to get out of its own way. Their continued carping about Force 5 sounds dramatic, but its not. Its N O R M A L. Second, i know that things break out there, but you need to be able to fix them. The boat took on water when the engine was running? From where? Fix it. Slugs detach from the sail? Lash them back on with spectra like I've done. Third, he allowed his wife to suffer for four days before he remembered that they had some sturgeron. You take care of your crew before you tend to yourself. Fourth, I'd like to know why he was doing so much close reaching to get west. He could have made the ride a LOT more comfortable and likely faster by cracking off 10 degrees. Its easier on the boat and the crew. Fifth, having no passage making experience (this being his first), he completely underestimated the physical toll it takes on a shorthanded crew. That toll was greatly magnified by the parenting requirements of two infants. Basically, neither of them had any down time. An experienced captain would have known this. Sixth, you don't lose steering, and that lies in boat prep. But if you do, an HC with a balanced sailplan will sail in a straight line. He apparently didn't know how to do it, or how to jury rig emergency steering using a towed drogue etc. i've heard a lot being made about his USCG Captains License. Its a written test, my mother could pass it, and the sea time requirements can be exaggerated all to hell and gone doing nothing more than day sailing
I sailed my Baltic 37 to and from Hawaii two summers ago ('12). The trip home was shorthanded with some pretty snotty weather for 6 days straight. By the time we sailed out of that gale (from 149W to 129W) I was hallucinating from lack of sleep...so I have a fairly decent idea of the physical demands of an upwind ocean passage. Personally I think it was too much too soon to have included the kids, and that they would have been far better off to have met Eric in Tahiti and sailed the shorter passages with him once he had worked the kinks out with 2-3 experienced crew. Hindsight is 20/20, but by the time I took my own boat and crew, I had already done the trip three times on other boats, once as navigator on a racing yacht. I had a great apprenticeship. Eric subjected himself to OJT with his family as passengers and no mentor to speak of. That's a tough way to learn passage making.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Who decides where to draw the line? This fundamental issue was one of the conflicts between my ex wife and me.
Everyone draws the line in a different place, and who's to say who is right and who is wrong, if any of us are?
For the first 6 months of my first child's life, we never left the house as a group except for the pediatrician's office. Pretty close to literally. I did go out alone and do shopping trips and go to work and whatnot... but the idea of going to Yosemite to go camping was completely off the table because they didn't have a major hospital nearby in case something bad happened.
Heck, we couldn't even go to a restaurant... it was a big deal when I convinced her for a trip to Castle Rocks, sometimes around 6-9 months of age for my boy, and it was a total of a few hours away from the house, maybe 60 minutes out of the car near the main Castle Rock.
So from her perspective, all of you who would take a child to Yosemite seems just as irresponsible as all of you casting aspersions at the people out at sea. Is my ex crazy? Are you crazy? Am I crazy?
Certainly a lot of different ideas about how to live life, and last time I checked there isn't a manual I trust as being the single authoritative source that should dictate the flow of humanity. We all make our choices and live with the consequences. Parents are responsible for children and the consequences to them too.... Would you prefer a world where children were removed from parents at birth to ensure they were brought up in the correct pre-approved manner? If there is any democracy in deciding that utopia turned dystopia, I'm pretty sure a climbing and outdoor lifestyle wouldn't win any votes as the approved way to be.
I've already had to deal with this, having my life and parenting choices under a microscope and accountable to custody evaluators and judges and people who get to decide whether I am a suitable parent and worthy to raise the children that I made a heavy emotional investment to help bring into this world. In that battle, the person who lives in a cookie-cutter home in the perfect school district with the kids who play every sport and involved in every extra-curricular activity is the winner. The more you look like the stereotype of Keeping Up With the Joneses, the more you win. And enjoying nature, taking vacations where you don't plan your itinerary 6 months in advance with phone numbers where you can be reached at every moment, well that's not part of the generally accepted formula for being a good parent.
Of course, it's all from the perspective of being "in the child's best interest." According to whom?
Stones in glass houses....
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Sal-
Not a personal attack, but your review indicates they lacked experience for such a journey. Fair enough for adults to take on such an adventure, but to drag a one and three year old into it is STUPID.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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My main concern is that nobody injures their finger from waving it too vigorously at these people.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Johntp, I think that was my point. With their level of experience, those kids and their mother needed to be on Air NZ.
I feel for nutagain. We took our kid camping and climbing all the bloody time. He's made it to 34 even though we're long divorced. Now, if nutagain had wanted to drag his 1 y/o up the Nose...I'd probably say the same thing that I've said about the Kaufmans.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Yo nutagain, sounds like you've been through some hell. My philosophy raising kids was to keep doing what made me happy since that was their best chance at it themselves. Paid off with both my boys living the mountain life in Montana which makes for some great family reunions, stay true to your heart.
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overwatch
climber
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Yep that is a fine post, nutagain
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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My philosophy raising kids was to keep doing what made me happy since that was their best chance at it themselves.
Big +1 to that brother. I ain't no robot factory churning out robots whose goal will be to churn out more robots.
Although the kids are at age now where they more clearly have their own senses of what makes them happy, and it's a balance of what makes them happy based on their limited experience of what's possible, and me pushing them toward new experiences that might expand their horizons or sense of possibilities in how they might want to live their lives.
One of the benefits I get from sticking to this forum over the years is the sense that I'm not a completely isolated whackjob for wanting to take the kids on camping adventures. Most of the kids' friends' parents can't remotely relate to the types of stuff I like to do. Their kids are mostly more concerned about what is the coolest new smartphone and ewww why would you go camping when you can stay in hotels?
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Hey, my kid really liked Camp 4; but he LOVED room service at the Grand Hyatt in Crystal City. It was a carrot to get him to freaking study.
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Bad Climber
climber
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I hear ya, DMT, but trans-oceanic sailing on a 38 footer with a ONE YEAR OLD?! And only two of them to make it all happen? This is beyond irresponsible. It's downright stoooopid. I can see trying something like this when the kid is maybe 12 or so, big enough to really help out--strong, trained, ready to be part of the team, ABLE TO SWIM IF EVERYONE HAS TO BAIL! Now if you're fleeing an island beset by savages, blowing volcanoes, etc., then you do what you gotta do, but these stooges "volunteered" their one-year-old for this. Yeah, full-on, straight-up idiots.
BAd
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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There are things in life worse than death.
Like reading the blog about the "adventure"
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Now if you're fleeing an island beset by savages, blowing volcanoes, etc., then you do what you gotta do
Bad, now that's funny!
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Bad seems to forget, they had their 3 year old with them to help
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Plenty of couples take kids on long sailing voyages. The biggest risk is the parents split up midway due to the stress. (plenty of couples without kids split too).
We know a couple whose child was born on Malta (in the Mediterranean). When Falcon (yes) was a few months old (conceived in the Indian Ocean) they continued their voyage, through the Mediterranean, across the Atlantic and the Caribbean, through the Canal up the coast of Central America.This was all on a 25 ft sailboat. Without a motor. We met them in the Sea of Cortez when Falcon was 2 and stayed in touch for several years.
To be fair, Pop was a very experienced ocean sailor, and Mum had become one since they had met in New Guinea. Last time we heard from them, Falcon was skippering an ocean racing yacht out of the West Indies.
While cruising in the South Pacific, my wife and I met several families with young kids out of the States. None of them had any serious problems with anyone's health. None of them had serious problems with their voyages. The kids were all well socialized and self reliant. It's a great way for kids to spend a few years of their lives.
The Kaufman family drew the short straw, that's all.
This family WAS adequately experienced, and prepared. I'm very familiar with their boat class, a Hans Christian 36. This is an excellent and proven around the world cruising yacht. All the experience and preparation in the world couldn't have foreseen the baby getting seriously ill.
Scheiss happens.
You can read the non-sensational facts of the story here:
http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2014-04-04
and here
http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2014-04-07#.U0SP515V-ec
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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climbers of all people shouldn't be throwing stones.
As someone pointed out upthread, the family car is about the most dangerous place you can put your baby. Or possibly on the back of your bicycle.
So many of those complaining here also gripe about the Nanny State.
You can't have it both ways.
None of the three federal agencies that helped rescue an ill 1-year-old girl and her family from their broken down sailboat about 900 miles off Mexico’s Pacific coast plan to seek reimbursement for the cost of the operation.
Officials from the Navy, Coast Guard and California Air National Guard said Tuesday they don’t charge for search-and-rescue missions.
“We don’t want people in trouble at sea to hesitate to call for help for fear they’ll be charged for assistance,” said Lt. Anna Dixon of the 11th Coast Guard District, which oversaw the operation but did not send vessels or aircraft to the stranded sailboat.
She said that helping at sea is a time-honored tradition and a requirement of international maritime convention. Chicago Sun Times
In My Not So Humble Opinion, based upon a year at sea in a 30 foot sailboat with just one other person, this family did nothing reckless.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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HT speaks the truth!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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And sometimes people put themselves into situations for which they are ill-prepared.
and sometimes people adventure into situations well prepared and momma nature is still the boss.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Tough one here. Something to think about. Its interesting how so many that applaud(ed) Jim Herson's adventures with his little tykes seem so against this one. Yes, they're a bit different, but the concept is the same.
We're stoked and amazed when it all goes well (I absolutely love Herson's trip reports and they inspire me to get my kids out there young, and more often). But I cannot help but wonder what the response would have been here on Supertopo had Jim peeled off somehow inexplicably way up/out there, leaving a six or ten year old to be rescued.....let alone endure the nightmare of a dead or maimed dad on the end of a rope. Climbing is dangerous and I was knowingly putting my ten year old in harm's way last summer when we climbed Cathedral. I thought of this often when I was up there with my little guy, all runout with a storm on the way. Was I foolish....or being a great dad? Such a fine line sometimes.....
Just some thoughts.
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Sanskara
climber
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Awesome dad..
Life is dangerous, you could die and never have lived if you are always worried about being careful ;)
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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^^^
micronut; would you do a wall on Baffin with a one and three YO strapped to the haul bag? That is why I am conflicted on this one. It is one thing to introduce kids to adventure. But it just seems to me this was reckless due to the age of the children and lack of available support.
I would hardly call a 36' sailboat a yacht. Sure, it is seaworthy; but border line. A 36' boat in big seas is a gamble.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Well, I'm inclined to agree with High Traverse on this one. It sounds like the important basics were covered. It could have turned out to be a great experience for the child. Children can be raised with to many fences, to many fears.
I grew up with to much fear. It impacted my life long term. Things like, "Don't touch the wall electrical plates." Like touching the plate cover could kill you. I never dreamed of putting anything in the plate slits, because that would be a kid Armageddon. I grew up thinking electricity jumped out at you and fried you if you even got close.
Another don't was don't get near the edge you'll fall off and die. Consequently heights and I were never friends, they terrified me.
My husband turned rock climber did his best to free me from fear and I honor him for this, along with his patience and never giving up on me. Our 5 year old son and 8 year old daughter actually climbed Joshua Tree's "Walk on the Wild Side" for the TV program "That's Incredible" many years ago. I was freaked, but Dan and friends helped the kids pull it off. The kids not only survived, but had fun and it gave them a lot of life skills for their future.
If the person going out on the ocean with their child planned well and took all precautions then good for them. Your kiddos can die in a car wreck at any given time even with car seats and the most safe of vehicles.
One must live.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Kids die or get hurt all the time because their parents let them do stuff. or they get lost when they wander out of the campground at J-Tree and cause enormous searches.
Does this mean we should keep our kids in bubbles? I hope not. I don't know the family or enough of the details to judge this. I wouldn't say there's no case where taking a 1 year old would be OK. Sounds more like these folks were a bit unlucky and a bit unprepared. But that doesn't mean what they did was totally inexcusable.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Thanks, Kos.
Give your family a big hug from me. Kids may not remember me, but your wife will. We share a wonderful sense of clothes savy. :) lynnie
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jstan
climber
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Parents are not responsible to us for anything. We can approve or disapprove but we have no legal
standing in the question. And as always, how things turn out can be a matter of chance.
Has anyone pointed out this voyage gave the kids an opportunity to
"feel really alive"? On a climbing site I would be surprised if this has not been suggested.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Yeah, I'm sure that one year old will have nothing but the fondest memories.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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I took my son local sailing when he was 2 years old. He slept most of the trip and puked on my hat. But hey, I had fun!
Agree that taking a one year old was poor judgment. 5 years old would have been more appropriate. Even then, I could not imagine being in the drink with a toddler. That keeps me off the high seas with my son. Their trip was selfish.
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TimH
Trad climber
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The boat was the only casualty, and it was sunk on purpose.
Wonder if they submit an insurance claim? Or does naval gunfire to eliminate a hazard to navigation count as "hostile action"?
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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I would be more afraid of pirates then illness out sailing in certain places.
Was skiing at Mammoth last weekend and saw a Dad skiing with a tiny infant strapped to his chest. That seemed dangerous to me but oh well, who am I to judge.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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^^^ What Karen said
A 36' boat in big seas is a gamble. This is not at all true. It all depends on the design of the boat, how well prepared it is and how skilled the crew is.
My wife and I have been in full gales in the North Pacific for days at a time in our 30 footer which had been designed and built specifically for ocean cruising. Sure, at first it was a bit frightening and definitely mind focusing. Reefing the sails in the middle of the night in 40 knots of wind and 15 foot breaking seas was dammed hard work. We got tired of being damp and walking on the bulkheads when below deck, otherwise No Big Deal.
We have met many people who've sailed the big oceans and circumnavigated on boats under 40 feet. The most dangerous seas I've encountered have been 5 - 20 miles off the California Coast between Ano Nuevo and Fort Bragg. Many other Bay area sailors will say the same.
The boat in question was a Hans Christian 36, also specifically designed for long distance ocean sailing. Many of them have circumnavigated without trouble. There are well known weather windows for long distance sailing. They've been recorded and published for over 100 years. This family was leaving at the right time and taking the best route to the South Seas. They specifically would not meet hurricanes/typhoons. We took much the same route at the same season ourselves.
Actually 36' is an ideal size because the bigger the boat the more work it takes to manage her in rough weather. 36' is still small enough for two people to manage in any conditions. Big enough for two adults and two children.
Remember, this family's troubles had nothing to do with sea state, seamanship, boat preparation or the boat itself. The child could have been 12 or an adult of 30 with the same illness and result. The Navy would have come to the aid of anyone in the same situation, and have done hundreds of times. Just as they have rescued dozens of experienced and well prepared climbers and hikers and just plain dammed fools in Yosemite and Sierra Nevada in the past.( Thanks Chief )
I don't believe this family did anything reckless or unduly endangered their children.
This is all a tempest in a teacup exploded out of proportion by the sensationalist media.
(yeah, it makes a good story ... until the uninformed slander and innuendo get whipped up)
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I would have loved growing up like that. One year old, five year old, what's the difference?
There have always been tons of children that were and are being raised in horrible situations. This wasn't one of those.
The voyage itself isn't THAT dangerous. There is a big blue water cruising scene these days, and they had all of the good SOS equipment. So they used it. The same thing could have happened in an off the grid cabin during an Alaskan winter.
As for putting the rescuers at risk, I don't buy that crap. I've never been around climbers on SAR who didn't pray for a rescue or long search. It is challenging and the way to make your living.
I see people judging others harshly all of the time. Talk is cheap.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Agree with High Traverse....!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Yeah, me too. Well said.
I continued BASE and did one El Cap route after my son was born.
For me, I had a couple of close calls and decided to hang it up. Man, that decision made my life miserable. You know, being responsible. I was much happier hanging my ass out in the breeze, but I would make the same decision today.
It had more to do with working full time and providing for my family than anything else. I continued to have adventures. They were just adventures that I could manage.
I took my son to ANWR when he was 11. It was great. If we had been mauled by a bear or needed help, I'm sure that a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks would have chimed in with their so-called expertise.
Judging people is not a good past time. It really rubs me the wrong way.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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In general, I think people go about passing judgment when they have no business or standing to do so. I clearly remember all the disapproving stares for all of the actions someone else deemed were irresponsible. When you view cultural approval and disapproval with a long term lense, it is interesting.
Years ago, no one had seat belts, and children stood in the car while it was moving. We all did it. Years ago, I worked while pregnant, ran while pregnant, and in general according to various people around me was totally irresponsible about my child's well being. Today we know that active woman have healthier babies than sedentary woman.
I will not judge these people. I encourage people to take their kids into the world early and often. I don't understand the need to go on witch hunts. The sole purpose seems to be to feel morally superior to another. Don't get me started on rescue----the ambulance comes when the obese, diabetic smoker has chest pains and does not pass judgment on their deservedness for medical treatment and transport. We don't respond to fires only at the homes of people who do not smoke or barbeque.
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Sanskara
climber
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People suffer at the hand of much worse parents ever day.
Between 1-2 I watched my drunk father beat the living sh#t outa my mother. It was the 70's back when a woman would call the cops on her husband and the cops would tell you sorry mam!
Between 2-3 mom and dad got divorced. Dad got visitation rights, to torment my mother he would pick me up then park square in front of our house where he would leave me strapped in my car seat in his van screaming while he blast Led Zeppelin and drink with his buddies. Why because he knew it killed my mother that she had to give him visitation rights and there was not a dam thing she could do about it. Again it was the 70's the cops didn't give a f*#k.
By 3 mom was now working two jobs to survive taking care of us on her ow as dad never payed child support. I am told like clockwork every night when she came to pick me up from my grandparents after work at like 9-10 pm I would have a grilled cheese or PB&J sandwich waiting for her as I was worried she must be hungry.
We survived life is great now, look at my pictures!
Yeah lots of people had it a lot worse than we did.
Ever watch the show Shamless on Showetime?
That's not just TV, people really live that way. Sadly I saw it growing up..
The two kids on the boat had it made. Two parents engaging in life with them. Not sitting at home, not working their lives away hating each other to death worked to the bone just to survive. Mad at one another for all the sacrifice..
Who are we to say right from wrong..
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Sanskara
climber
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Seamstress
I like the last part of what you had to say. About the ambulance coming to pick up the obsess person or the smoker or the well the list goes on and on and on..
I often think the same thing when the average person complains about the affordable care act and It costing them money. Most often it is some overweight outa shape person that either smokes, drinks or eats like sh#t.
In my view from where I stand being über healthy and taking the best care if myself call it "preventative care" if you will. Myself and every other person that makes it a priority to mind there health had been paying inflated health care cost our whole dam lives as a result of those that drink, smoke, over eat and or just eat like sh#t.
Payback is a bitch!
Yeah we definitely should not pay for that rescue ;)
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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^^^ But not who wipes it
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
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Very interesting discussion. As a long time off shore,short handed sailor I'm betwixt and between my thoughts about young children on board a long passage. Yet, as HT has mentioned, it does happen...and successfully. I've known families whose only home is their boat and their children were born on it, or at least it was their "birth home". I think HT and Sal have provided some great insights from an off shore perspective. They do have survival suits for children...these were not custom made.
Susan
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Wow, I didn't know we had so many knowledgeable and experienced sailors on board ST.......
There appears to be many questions here but people seemed most upset with the actual fact of taking small children to sea.
From what I can tell, the boat, a well known and tested blue water passage maker, was well outfitted, the parents had enough sailing background to safely make the passage from Mex to the Marqueses and the subsequent medical emergency and rescue is what has everyone so fired up and boiling over with condemnation.
Irresponsible parenting, I don't think so.
Save all the discussion about the actual rescue hullabaloo and cost for another day. This topic alone will probably get people axed from ST. I do find it funny that few have ventured into that gray area of climbing rescues and costs and let alone dads and kids and Grade 6 walls and......................Micronut took a plunge but no one took the bait.
High Traverse, in my humble opinion, has expressed the most logical and intelligent summary of sailing offshore and the inherent responsibilities required of family and boat. Cruising with children is not a novelty. There are hundreds of responsible and qualified families out there sailing.
I am sure it will be no surprise to anyone on ST but I can't find a better scenario than raising a child on a boat and traveling the world. That is my humble opinion.
Irresponsible opinion. Quite possibly so but then again many of you climb so where is the confusion.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Babies on boats? That's preposterous. Everyone knows you keep them under the stairs until they are 18... unless you can sell them.
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Sanskara
climber
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Guido,
If that is not enough girl the neigh sayers I dint know what is.
Beautiful life you live, what an example for us all!
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Joe you irresponsible rogue. . .
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John M
climber
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Somehow the people defending the parents missed the point.
A one year old toddler doesn't care if she/he is on a boat or at home. The parents just wanted to have some fun.
Selfish and irresponsible.
Do you say the same thing to the people who purposely move to places like the Alaskan Bush, or the outback of Africa or Australia, where medical care is a long ways away?
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
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They sucked big weenies!!! I love the first instruction on the bag "Stay Calm"
I've only done it as practice in Oakland Estuary.
Susan
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John M
climber
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For some people it is a way of life.
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John M
climber
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There are people who choose to live hundreds of miles from the nearest road, in total wilderness. They weren't born there. They have good jobs and good lives in regular cities/towns, and they choose to move to the wilderness for the very fact that it is wilderness. They didn't have to move to the wilderness in order to make a living, they chose it. And they choose to have families. What do you say about them?
For some people sailing is a hobby. for others it is a way of life. It is how they find fulfillment. I won't judge them for that.
I'm not that afraid of guns. Gun worshippers? sometimes, but thats only because some people are crazy. Guns themselves. Nope..
Some people should never even have kids. even if they are living in a nice safe town with a nice safe job. Others could raise the most amazing kids even in incredibly dangerous places. I don't choose to limit those kinds of people.
I would trade my nice safe growing up in a small farming community for growing up like what Guido shows in a heart beat. If my parents were up for it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I doubt that the pressgang would have taken that lubber.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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I wish Guido had been my dad.
I can think of a heck of a lot worse examples of "irresponsible parenting".
And so can you.
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John M
climber
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OK John, I give up. You turning the arguments on purpose. Poor form.
We are talking about this particular incident, not some various scenarios.
No.. I am not turning it on purpose. I am trying to expose what I believe. If you believe differently, then thats fine. Thats your choice. Mine is different. This isn't about who wins an argument.
I believe that I asked a legitimate question. You define what they are doing as a hobby. I believe it is a lifestyle choice, so I am comparing it to what I believe are similar lifestyle choices. I'm not talking about someone who homesteads a place to try to make a life for themselves because they have nothing. I'm talking about people who have decent lives, but choose to go do something some would say is dangerous. I tend to salute them, unless their plan is unworkable or unreasonable. If they put a sound plan together, then I salute them, even if it is dangerous.
Moose, don't take this so personal. Its only a discussion.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Hell, Delhi Dog, your dad dragged you around the world growing up on Lake Titticacca (can I say that?) with giant toads. You should be grateful.
Actually, this is Timid but now I like my new look. I'm not on my tablet and too lazy to copy, sign out, sign in, and paste.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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GUIDO
PLEASE ADOPT ME!
I wanna start over!
sigh
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Actually TT it's Tittie poo poo.
Yeah, okay I did get "dragged" around to some sweet places.
My parents were so irresponsible...just like me, "dragging" my kids around.
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Sanskara
climber
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Buncha stinking hippies ;)
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Apr 10, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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what an awesome idea as parents to travel around the world. too bad the boat broke down.
im sure this is not the first time families have done this.
moose needs his meds!
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Sanskara
climber
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Apr 10, 2014 - 10:53am PT
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You won't...
Funny I was thinking about your fast yesterday Moose..
How you doing?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 10, 2014 - 10:54am PT
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Moosie, fasting won't bring Ron back.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 10, 2014 - 11:06am PT
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I feel like Gandhi now!
Maybe more like Gandinsky? :-)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2014 - 11:56am PT
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Nature or nurture?
My mother's father was a big time risk taker. He gambled. He was a philanderer.He even did some climbing in the Alps.In the '20s he hired a pilot to fly him in an open cockpit across the Channel to get a day's jump on the other Dutch diamond dealers when shipments became available.
And anybody who performs on stage like my dad did is a large risk taker. So maybe being a risk taker is genetic from both sides of my family, but I think the adventurous stuff that I was encouraged to do as a youth has led me to a far more interesting life than if I had sought a career in an office or such.
It may even be why, although reading a lot of Arthur Conan Doyle probably helped.
Ahoy, Guido, nice shots!
I want to buy some more Ts too.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Apr 10, 2014 - 04:32pm PT
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Wanted: more parents like Guido in this world.
Seems like so many of todays parents are creating a whole sanitized generation who are risk adverse and feel their safety is a right, if some activity isn't safe it must be someone's fault.
My parents had two simple house rules, circa 1950's & early 60's:
1. No kids indoors during daylight hours.
2. If you're bleeding go to the mud room.
I'll never forget a frantic mother describing her son's head wound after a neighbor rock fight to my dad at the front door. His response, "well Betty boys will be boys", they'd be calling Child Protective Services today! Thanks dad for the cover, RIP.
Here's to the great dads out there, cheers!
Charlie D.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Apr 10, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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Guido and High Traverse are spot-on!
For the rest of my life, I thanked my Dad who, one day, came into the (safe) bowling alley where my brother and I, in our early teens, bowled with our mom on Sundays. He took us out to Stoney Point where the Sierra Club taught us rock climbing! (Not safe!) That certainly changed the course of my life. I cannot imagine a life for me if Dad had not done that.
Robert Frost's poem, "The Road Not Taken" ends with this stanza:
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
Great photos, Guido
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 10, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
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Guido
Thanks for the really marvelous pics!!!!
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jimthomsen
Social climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 28, 2014 - 11:13am PT
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Guido.... What a fantastic reply!
When I read other comments, including: "Can someone here who has extensive world sailing experience, please explain how the one year old and five year old can contribute to that vital Teamwork..." I wanted to make so many comments.
I do have "extensive world sailing experience" and I know many many boats sailing the world with kids. The same question could have been asked of me when my kids were small. We did long backpacking trips before they could walk more than 100 yards, they both did easy roped climbing when they were 8 years old. If we would have had a problem they would not have been able to "contribute to that vital Teamwork".
I think my kids, maybe because of the risks we took, turned out to be better people. The kids I have met who are being raised on sailing boats are the most interesting and intelligent kids I have known.
But Guido does say it so much better than I. Thanks Guido (and thanks for including our facebook comment.)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 28, 2014 - 11:42am PT
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There is a subtle difference between Guido and the rescued parents.
Guido was a responsible parent: he knew what he was doing and he had a sound craft.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 28, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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The Monday morning quarterbacking quote is apt. If all goes well then you're a hero and great example, and if there is a problem or disaster you were irresponsible.
Kids hurt in car wreck going to grocery store, so tragic and sad and unavoidable. Kids hurt by freak accident on a boat, of course it's parents' fault. It comes down to people evaluating circumstances through their own experiences and comfort zone and abilities and values for how life should be lived, rather than putting themselves into the perspective of the people being judged and granting them the respect and autonomy to live life as they see fit and to share those values with the children they brought into his world.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 28, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
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Putting kids in a car is way more dangerous than putting them in a boat!!
Rad Pics Guido!! Thanks!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 28, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
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Maybe the way you drive, Mike. ;-)
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 28, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
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Maybe the way i used to drive...
Roughly 5,000 boating accidents are counted by the Coast Guard each year. These accidents cause around 750 deaths, 3,500 injuries, and around $36 million in damages to property. The most common recreational boat types involved in accidents are open motorboats (46%), personal watercraft like jet skis (22%), and cabin motorboats (14%). It is important to note that these statistics just apply to reported accidents. Only 5 to 10% of non-fatal boating accidents are reported, so these numbers may in fact be much higher.
United States of America, Road fatalities per 100 000 inhabitants per year 10.4, Road fatalities per 100 000 motor vehicles 15, Road fatalities per 1 billion vehicle-km 8.5 Total fatalities latest year 33 808.
Statistics show, cars are way more dangerous...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 28, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
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...as anyone who has driven on Vangoober Island can attest to.
I still have PTSD from my 5 months up there - those people are nuts!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 28, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
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Lol... Yes. I grew up there.. Lol
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 21, 2014 - 09:03am PT
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UPDATE Looks like they have a case against their attorney now as the court has ruled that they sued in the wrong jurisdiction. LOL! Case tossed out: http://news.yahoo.com/judge-dismisses-suit-family-saved-sea-172402402.html
For now.
"SAN DIEGO (AP) — A judge has dismissed a lawsuit against a satellite phone company by a California couple rescued with their sick 1-year-old from a disabled sailboat that was attempting to circle the world.
San Diego Superior Court Judge Judith Hayes ruled that a provision in the contract between Eric Kaufman and Whenever Communications requires any lawsuit to be filed in Florida, where the company's headquarters are located, U-T San Diego reported Saturday ( http://bit.ly/1Cj9BE6 ).
The Kaufmans sued the phone company in July claiming that they would not have lost their boat had they not lost satellite service, which impeded their ability to get medical advice over the phone when one of their two daughters fell ill.
Instead, they were forced to sound an alarm to the Coast Guard, which set off a huge rescue effort hundreds of miles off the Mexican coast involving skydiving National Guardsmen, three U.S. agencies, a plane, a frigate and scores of personnel.
A Navy ship took them to shore, while their boat was left at sea and sank.
After the ruling, family attorney Dan Gilleon said the Kaufmans will file their lawsuit in Florida."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 21, 2014 - 10:07am PT
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This belongs in the 'Too Many Lawyers' thread.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Dec 21, 2014 - 10:11am PT
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UPDATE Looks like they have a case against their attorney now as the court has ruled that they sued in the wrong jurisdiction. LOL! Case tossed out:
Seriously doubtful.
Nearly impossible to get relief from attorney incompetance.
Neither the sailors nor the stupid attorney bothered to read the contract.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 21, 2014 - 10:14am PT
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'Legal justice' just doesn't do it for me any longer.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2014 - 10:20am PT
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Never looked in this thread until now nor cared.
But damn ...... gudio's post a few pages back is worthy of it's own thread ......
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John M
climber
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Dec 21, 2014 - 10:36am PT
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But damn ...... gudio's post a few pages back is worthy of it's own thread ......
yep..
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 21, 2014 - 11:34am PT
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The attorney, Dan Gilleon, never met a lawsuit he would not file. He is the consumate attention whore. He is not a bad attorney, but takes some really weak cases.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 21, 2014 - 11:54am PT
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hey there say, quido... wow, great share!!
i was glad when we moved (my married family, not my home-youth family)
to south texas... in the city of san jose, my now-ex and i did not have enough money to go to the various spots that i liked... we did make it to
santa cruz, a few times, though...
but wow, in south texas, we had the coast, the arroyos for fishing and all kinds of open space...
kids need to be outdoors... and learn about how to grow up around it and hone skills that keep them safe--this is best done when they are young...
how much more so, on a boat... the sooner you learn, the more ingrained it is, and the more skills one has... or, in the woodslands... or trailer-living... etc...
of course, some folks should not do this--meaning those that they are reckless and unprepared or could care less about how the kids are faring...
however, some folks, such as what i just mentioned, ^ said above--sadly--
put their kids through 'negligent life' of danger, every day,
as it is... :( far to many homes,
the main thing, which i always say to folks, is this:
WATCH your babies and young kids...
any where, or any time,
in any life style, things can go wrong, these are the things,
that hopefully:
'get one past and out of' being irresponsible... :)
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Dec 21, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
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He is not a bad attorney
I don't know Jon.
Apparenly he is not a good one either. He didn't read the contract or read it and didn't understand it.
Neither a carrot nor a stick will work with some folks in the legal world.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Dec 21, 2014 - 06:44pm PT
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Those crazy parents these days and their obsessive mollycoddling. Don't they want their kids to be prepared when a saber tooth tiger leaps out at them?! Imagine the glory of protecting your family from a saber toothed tiger attack. I miss those days.
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