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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 08:29am PT
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Andy, I didn't selectively edit, I took your own words verbatim. I'll do it again now.
"A 4 pitch route with lots of 5.12 crack climbing on it isn't a sport route."
16 bolts in a pitch spaced 7 feet apart with no gear? Really? What else would that pitch be called? Where's the "lots of crack climbing" on that?
And Mill Creek is all sport climbing. OF COURSE it's going to be all bolts. That's the nature of the rock up there. Completely different from the desert sandstone. You can't be serious in comparing that area to Castleton Tower.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2012 - 08:45am PT
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Hi Blitzo!
I was wondering about that Jay Smith route too, Caught. I looked at it once when I rapped the North face. It looked very thin and desperate.
Edit thanks for the link, Clint.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 09:17am PT
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Jay!!! Did it rain overnight? Still cold? We miss you already.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2012 - 09:52am PT
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Frost on the pumpkin, and everything else!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 09:59am PT
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Oh my....
Head to the Love Muffin and warm up!
And pet Micah and Benjamin for me if they cross your paths.
(those are local dogs, not people FYI).
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2012 - 10:10am PT
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Mica is on a roadtrip, sportclimbing with Guy. She said something about needing to drag him out of the shop....
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Oct 25, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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I've climbed lots of 5.10 and 5.11 versions of this route already, nothing new here to me. Cracks connected with some face climbing; you'd have to have not climbed much in Utah if you haven't done at least a few routes like that, especially on towers. This one looks super, super good; it inspires me to train up for it, stoke!
5.13b, while a grade I don't climb often these days, is like 5.12b just 15 years ago. Lots and lots of people climb that hard, just not so many that hang out on here (some do for sure, but let's face it, Supertopo is not generally home of the currently super fit). If this route were 5.11b would anyone have an issue with it? Or is it that, "it's too hard for me so it's a desecration?" idea? This route is simply doing what many others have done but at a somewhat higher modern grade, and it will get increasing traffic with time. I'm totally missing why it's causing a stir on here, it's just not a "new" thing in the desert.
Nice work Chris and Sam. Get your asses back up to Canada and finish some more Ghost routes now please.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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But Gil, it's not cracks connected with face. It's heavily bolted with very few sections of gear.
"Lots and lots of people climb that hard"
I hope so and that they make lots of ascents up this route since it's there and established now. I just don't see sport climbers at that level heading to Castle Valley to send this thing. I hope I'm wrong.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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let's face it, Supertopo is not generally home of the currently super fit).
Hey...wait a min....oh....ok...bye.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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As has been pointed out, Castleton Tower has had bolt ladders on it for years.
I think the difference OP wants to bring up is the style of the ascent. Ground up, connecting cracks with a bolt ladder vs rap from top/work the route on TR and put as many bolts as you feel needed from the top. I mean sh#t, I am 100% certain I can put up a route in Lovers Leap if I apply the same style. But the question is why?
He isn't some random bro brah rolling in from Boulder.
Certainly people who put this route up are AMAZING climbers if they can climb 5.13 on lead. But why is a local guy held to a lower standard than a random dude from Boulder? Local climbers should lead by example.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Yeah, you don't if it "goes" when you put up a bolt ladder from the ground up.... It's cool if you aim for some cracks though (i.e., save money on more bolts). What a hold back in ethical judgment.
Personally, I do not think bolt ladders are appropriate. It kinds of defeats the impossible...but at least it is going from the bottom to the top.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:52am PT
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Ethics are twisted.
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Jimmy Russells
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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Manufactroversy (măn’yə-făk’-trə-vûr’sē)
N., pl. -sies.
1. A manufactured controversy that is motivated by profit or extreme ideology to intentionally create public confusion about an issue that is not in dispute.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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I think this emphasis on ground up or not distorts things a bit.
I'm not sure how many of you have tried putting in bolts on lead, by hand or with a power tool.
If the route was going in anyway, I'm glad it was done on rap. It is just too easy to make poor decisions obout bolt placement on lead. Often you can't find a hook placement, and have to drill from a marginal stance. This can result in poor bolt placement as well as shoddy unsafe bolts. It is especially difficult to bolt on lead in sandstone, stances and hook placements are too rare.
Considering this, it seems that this route was done in an ethically more conservative way than some of the older routes that relied on bolt ladders.
The real question is weather routes with protection bolts should even be established in these areas.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
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Bunch of Californians arguing against locals about desert ethics based on their trips to IC and the North Chimney. STFU.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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pointless arguments I guess...
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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16 bolts in a pitch spaced 7 feet apart
If this is accurate, it has no place on a landmark like Castleton tower, and is not an advance in climbing, but something more like vandalism. It's not a sport climbing tower, although there are doubtless many other faces that could be bolted. Why not drive a few hours north where there are huge canyon areas that could be developed where there are no local rules or history? Just bring your air compressor and you're good to go.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Don Paul, you don't get to decide that Castleton is not a sport climbing tower, even if you say it all authoritarian like. Don't like it? Don't climb it. Looks like an awesome route up an awesome arete, nice job Kalous and Lightner.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
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Jesus christ. Another bolt-nazi complaining there are bolts on something harder than 5.7r.
"5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic"
Yeah, cause they're CRACKS. You can't send them without placing gear. Not bolted face. Even then the list of people who send those isn't that big. Belly Full of Bad Berries only gets sent by the top of the tier climbers.
I've seen more 5.14 bolted routes get traffic than 5.13 crack routes. What the hell are you on about "cause they're CRACKS."? Indian Creek is known to have the best splitters around. On Sandstone at that.
You're comparing a 5.13+ overhanging offwidth to general 5.13 traffic? You must be on something.
This seems like your (Flouride) list of skills in climbing levels:
5.5-5.6 - noobs
5.7 - weekend warriors
5.8-5.9 - skilled climbers
5.10 - hardmen
5.11 - Donini
5.12 - ???wtf?
5.13 - Top tier climbers.
5.14 - ??
5.15 - five what?
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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Bolt is not a four letter word. Ah F*#k, I just counted it again and it is. F*#k.
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