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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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The route sounds great, congrats to the fa team! The nearby Nuns have a bolted 5.11 face climb, Holier than Thou, that I climbed long ago, on calcite. That rippled calcite can provide amazing face holds in outrageous situations. If this route is of the same quality, then it will be outstanding!
Just had breakfast with one of the original fa team, Layton. I told him about this route, he was mostly just amazed at the level of difficulty that 5.13 meant. Far beyond anything he could do, and a whole different game to what he played.
Good discussion here. have not seen the climb A few thoughts:
The arete that gets climbed seems independent enough from North Chimney that it does not detract from the experience of climbing the N Chimney. That's a plus. Actually pretty essential. Excommunication is far more independent, for sure. Routes are a bit crowded on Castleton. Partly the nature of the more cracked and featured terrain.
Long ago, Ed Webster placed a long bolt ladder nearby up the Arrowhead (12-14 bolts?) so that his route Midnight Cowboy or Stardust Cowboy or whatever it was called could keep going upward to an independent finish. With hindsight, he became a bit sheepish about adding so many bolts that really served no use to anyone nor provided any climbing. But they are still there. No one complains.
I always find kind of ugly and sad the bolts under the roof left of Kor Ingalls (placed by Dan Osman, I recall?). An abandoned project, but not really any kind of line in the first place. The line did not work out but were left. An eyesore, for sure. Says something about how rapping and placing bolts can produce a better result than placing them ground-up, at least sometimes.
A rap bolted line on Castleton Tower is sad. What happened to respecting the local ethics?
Well, that's a good question. I think Jay Smith's Sacred Ground was the first new route established on Castleton Tower by a "local." This is the second route done by a local. What does that tell us?
These days there is a flourishing local community in Moab and Castle Valley. Mostly the locals are trying to develop new routes that provide a variety of climbing experiences and levels. Trying to drag the desert into the 21st century. There is a balance to be found, for sure. In the past, most of us visitors have tried to hew carefully to what we have seen as a high ethical standard. But not always.... The locals are seeking, and I think finding, a nice balance for the crags and towers around Moab. Castleton Tower has perhaps the best rock for many miles, so if a bolted 5.13 face route will be found anywhere, then Castleton Tower is the place to find it.
Having said that, criticism is a great thing. Just because Sam LIghtner is a local and has been climbing for decades does mean give him or anyone else any entitlement. These towers are treasures, world-reknowned. A shared resource. Carping keeps a climber honest.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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Nicely said ^^^
Neat looking line. Topo on FB and the comments are positive (as FB is want to be, I suppose).
Sport pitch on a fairly "trad" style line it seems. 5.12 "obl"...ha ha. I like's me some obl ratings, but, way way way above my pay grade.
Kudos to the lads. Big effort. It'll see traffic. Kids are crankin' these days. Something has to get them out of Millcreek every once in awhile..ha ha.
Warm up on this?:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/excommunication/105718708
Cheers!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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Not commenting on whether it belongs or not. I don't have enough info to opine.
But the assertion that 5.13 sport climbs in popular places are rarely climbed seems off. If anything, it seems likely to be clogged with people dogging it, which seems to be the preferred mode of ascent at the grade. Did I skim too quickly about the nature of its protection?
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cowpoke
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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so glad I tuned in to read crunch's eloquent post.
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steve shea
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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Get Hayden Kennedy, he'll show'em what for.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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I don't recall a similar bunch of whining when Greg Child bolted the arete "Excommunication" on the Priest.
Almost an exact comparison...established tower, Castle Valley, primarily bolted but with some gear mixed in, and a 13 crux pitch.
I'd also love to hear of all these unrepeated Cosgrove 5.13 Josh routes Beth keeps talking about. I know of exactly ONE unrepeated Coz route, G-String (which is an extreme reach problem, a quintessential tall man route, so no big surprise that it's the one that hasn't been repeated). So please elighten me as to what the other unrepeated ones are.
I say good for them, hard free climbing on an iconic tower, in spectacular position. Nice one boys. And 13b isn't exactly cutting edge, it's kind of the bottom entry grade for actual "hard" climbing...8a, you know. And besides, Kalous sent it, so how hard can it be really?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Get Hayden Kennedy, he'll show'em what for.
Kinda funny...'cause his dad commented on Facebook about it...!
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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What defines classic?
Because the rock formation has been there for a really long time?
Or because there was a route established on it before you were born?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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And besides, Kalous sent it, so how hard can it be really?
OUCH!
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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this thread is just a bunch of california sprayhards talking to each other about a route they'll never try or even see most likley. go climbing for crying out loud!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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Crunch..... well said.
+1
And to Sam and Chris .... good job, way to go.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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I'm just confused by this double standard you BITD guys have.
------------------Against-----------
Hard face climbs being bolted because the traffic on that route will be low. - Because it will damage the rock
Bolts being every 7 feet. - Because it will damage the rock
--------------------Pro--------------
Hammering cracks to fit your gear. - Because it was classic
Bolt Ladders. - Because it was classic
Putting a bolt every 50 feet on "moderate" terrain. - Because it was classic
-----------------Conclusion-----------
Why do you guys really care? YOU'LL NEVER SEE THOSE BOLTS. You wouldn't DARE try to climb it.
It's okay, isn't looked down on, and you guys stroke the shaft to the cusp of people who hammered the sh*t out of cracks because it was "BITD."
Bolt ladders on faces that are now free climbable, but weren't back then, are fine because it was "BITD", therefore not looked down on, and they're still acceptable on "It's impossible to free climb terrain".
You're getting pissed at bolts being every 7 feet on a 5.13b, harder than you could possibly free climb, yet putting a bolt every 40-50 feet on Tuolumne's fine domes is "totally rad" because it's an unsafe ego trip to minimalize the damage to the rock, referring to bolt ladders... previously...
Your guys's sh*tty double standard may look cool in your eyes, but it looks f*cking ignorant and moronical in mostly everyone elses'.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Good point Michael. This is why I am confused (bolt ladders/smashing tiny cracks with pins BITD vs rap bolting a super hard face route now. Both do not sound like perfect styles to me. But no reason to say someone is clearly WRONG. Don't like it- don't climb it). I guess there always will be different points of view, and you can't please everyone.
Lesson of the day: have fun with style that suits YOU, be honest about it. Everything else is a pointless argument.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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Don't like it don't climb it. Or at least climb it before you complain about it. No matter what, when you put up a route, someone will not like how you did it. People who are so worried about style miss out on a lot of great climbing. Climb on.
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all in jim
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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"Lesson of the day: have fun with style that suits YOU, be honest about it. Everything else is a pointless argument."
+1 ^^^
"Or at least climb it before you complain about it."
+1 ^^^
"Shut up and Climb"
+1 ^^^
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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I don't care if they climbed it by rappelling upside down. Clearly, such an icon needs to be on the Grid, if our sport is to advance.
Decaria established a similar arete on Sister Superior, just downrange, about 12 years ago. The coming generation should be able to slack line between the two routes any day now.
A consensus against bolt ladders on Towers was the justification for chopping Beckey's A0 FA on Zeus, by some Athena Nike. Lest we forget, we've always the spalled scars as a mute testimonial.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
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putting a bolt every 40-50 feet on Tuolumne's fine domes is "totally rad" because it's an unsafe ego trip to minimalize the damage to the rock
Take it back to the hive.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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So whats the real deal? We all get to bag on our betters now? What makes Lightner and Cris better climbers than 99% of these posters are that they just STFU and went climbing. Castleton is a great location, but I don't see anyone who can get up the thing bagging on it or these guys. They're good guys and good climbers. Yes, of course it's the internet, we should sh#t on them. NOT. We should just wander over and actually look at the route. Nevermind.
You read that right. Sh#t, where's WandeFuca when you need a good troll.
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BruceAnderson
Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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Amen Coz!!
And nice send Kalous!
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Yes, Bruce, I am serious.
We were pretty disappointed to finally make it out to Taylor Cyn, and see the damage. The spalls are a couple of inches across.
Worse, someone obviously did the route, and then "backcleaned" it (since it diagonals).
Now, if they'd only known, then, how to chop properly.
What happened on Castleton can never happen in Canyonlands NP. I prefer BLM lands due to a lack of RR&Rs, at least for now. But, in Canyonlands: no hammering, no bolts (nowadays, climbers have been known to simulrappel off opposite side of a tower, since no new rap anchors are allowed) except in a life - threatening emergency...no chalk (generally ignored)...etc.
I'm not aware of any public land stewardship which presses the imperative to "preserve and protect for future generations."
Is this a good agenda?
Try to get a permit to bivi down on the White Rim...or in The Maze. A combination lock guards the 10mi 4x road to the "Tower" Anasazi ruin in the Needles District. 1st come, 1st served, no reservations for the combination...and it's 60 miles from Moab to the Visitors Center to get the permit.
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