New bolted 5.13b route on Castleton Tower.

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Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:06am PT
How about all those horizontal bolt lines ending at 100'-115' feet located at Indian Creek? Cumulatively, there are many serialized "lines" (two points makes a line, right?) of bolts in that all trad, no bolt craggin' country.

But, you know, choose your argument of convenience.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:07am PT
This isn't about the Creek. It's about Castleton Tower. Comparing apples and oranges.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:15am PT
Hi Dave!

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:23am PT
bolted the line

does this mean that it did go in top down?

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:24am PT
This isn't about the Creek. It's about Castleton Tower. Comparing apples and oranges

Did you see any bolts on Kor Ingalls last time you climbed that? (I did!)
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:27am PT
Since I've only been in the Castleton Tower area once, I can't comment on whether or not a bolt line is a desecration. But to say that because it's 5.13, it won't see very many repeats is just plain silly.

Time marches on. Yesterday's bizarrely difficult, never-to-be-repeated test pieces are today's tourist routes. Remember the origins of the Yosemite decimal system? 5.8 was the hardest grade imaginable. Only a couple of freakishly gifted and fearless men could climb at that grade. So leaving a 5.9 grade open would easily accommodate future advances, with 5.10 available for something a hundred years in the future.

And now? Where are we? 5.15c? Or is it just 5.15b?

So sure, if you think Castleton should not have bolted routes, I can't argue. Maybe you're right. But half the 13-year-olds at your gym probably hike 5.13, so that argument is a non-starter.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:29am PT
> just next to the classic North Chimney.

Judging from the photo, I don't think it is actually visible from North Chimney. It looks to be 2 aretes to the left.


I haven't actually done North Chimney; I assume one is buried in the chimney and can only see the arete on the immediate left.

Actually the arete is visible while climbing the first pitch, although the bolts might not be if it climbs on the left side of the arete.
I suspect most people will be busy looking at the jams or at the Priest?
And apparently after the initial moves on p2, one is in the chimney and not seeing the arete anymore.

Your impact argument about a low traffic route is reasonably good,
but it might assume that all routes are equally enjoyable.
What if the route is 10x as enjoyable, but only has 1/10 the traffic of a comparison route?
Then the 2 factors net out....
I suppose here we might think it's more like 5x and 1/50 .
But we still have no real basis for trading off bolt visibility against enjoyment of a route.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:29am PT
Ummm Vitaliy, Kor-Ingalls went up in 1961. They didn't have a lot of options to get up it back then.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:35am PT
Should of had Fluoride tell em to get down if they couldn't do it without a bolt! ; )

My point: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5oeilDWhs1qit4p6o1_400.gif
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:37am PT
Why did they put in a bolt ladder on East buttress of Middle Cathedral back in the day instead of just rapelling off and waiting for a better climber to come along and run it out/take another variation? All these ethics are twisted.

Congrats to the people on their first ascents. Although rap bolting a line is quite a different experience than going from the ground up.....
johnkelley

climber
Anchorage Alaska
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:38am PT
Did you see any bolts on Kor Ingalls last time you climbed that? (I did!)

Kor Ingalls was done ground up. Just like every other route there. It also doesn't have a full pitch with bolts seven feet apart. The grade makes no difference. Easy or hard it makes no difference.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:42am PT
I just looked over the FA more. Yeah, doing First Ascents on rap, is not so adventurous...don't even get the point of it actually. Just set up a top rope, rehearse the moves, and put in enough bolts. Hmmmm I guess you have a point Fluoride. Thought it was done ground up.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:44am PT
Thanks Vitaliy.

I only wanted to point that out.

This is nothing like Layton, Jay, or any of the others who put up hard routes on the tower did.

It's obviously a great new hard route. But not like the ones that went up the tower in the past.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 02:13am PT
Nope J. I don't want to give away their effort but I question their means of doing it in a place that doesn't seem to need it.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:13am PT
This isn't about the Creek. It's about Castleton Tower. Comparing apples and oranges.


Utah desert wingate sandstone crag vs. Utah desert wingate sandstone crag. My bad for generalizing so erroneously.

The funny thing is you can compare apples and oranges on a lot of points. They are a lot more similar than, say, apples and beef.

I dunno, some line that doesn't effect you is some line that doesn't effect you. It's sort of like a hiker on the Mist Trail who is mad when she looks up and sees climbers unfairly hiking up Snake Dike.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 02:18am PT
 <br/>
Castleton Tower

Castleton Tower
Credit: Fluoride

Done Jebus. Here she is a week ago Saturday.

My problem is the huge number of bolts put up on a tower that doesn't need it.

PS, I've done Snake Dike via the Mist Trail.

PPS, why did you use this all in female context?
"hiker on the Mist Trail who is mad when she looks up and sees climbers unfairly hiking up Snake Dike."

I'm the only female in this thread and wish there were more.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:22am PT
> doing it in a place that doesn't seem to need it.

I'm somewhat sympathetic, but actually climbing is not really "needed" anywhere.

I don't like looking at certain bolted climbs, like the bolts right of The Line at Lover's Leap.
And I try to minimize the impact of my new routes to some extent
(partly by pacing it - trying not to do a large number of routes in a small period of time).
But the choices ultimately involve value judgements about visual impact vs. quality/fun of the climbing.

Probably the closest comparison to this route is Excommunication on The Priest, although it also involved some glueing.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/excommunication/105718708

Why mostly guys discussing this?
Maybe because most new routes are done by guys and they like the freedom to choose methods?
As well as the freedom to judge other new routes
 some they might wish they had done
 others they would never choose to do
 others indifferent or not accessible to them ....
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:45am PT
Done because of me, Fluoride?

Maybe bolts are so magnified in our minds because, as climbers, we often see them up close.

Maybe I'm pissing on your sanctuary unduly, and it really is a travesty.

Hell, I don't know. Sorry if I seem callous, I'm sure I'll get my samesuch comeuppance in some short, jabbing punch to my emotional solar plexus one of these days, and probably not too long coming.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:09am PT
The on topic thread. A rare bird indeed. I will stand quietly now, spotting scope in hand.

G'night!
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 03:11am PT
Night Jebus. Heading to bed too. Sweet dreams.
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