Discussion Topic |
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 24, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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http://www.climbing.com/news/wild-new-5-13-on-utahs-castleton-tower/
30 new bolts on the tower for them to send this. Great effort but not sure how I feel about all those bolts on a route only a small handful of people will ever be able to do just next to the classic North Chimney.
Thoughts?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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Bolted routes should be reserved for places where gear routes can't be established. I've done six routes on Castleton and there are many more...the last thing the tower needs is a bolt line. Lot's of virgin rock in the area, take your f*#king drill somewhere else.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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Thanks Jim. You echoed my thoughts about this. Just seems wrong to do a massively bolted route on such a classic.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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It's Donini....certainly where the bolts are you can't use conventional gear We aren't talking about a swath of wingate sandstone, we are talking about an iconic tower with a plethora of established CLASSIC routes. Leave it be.
edit: It's a free world and bolting on BLM land is permitted, I'm only giving my personal opinion and will say no more on the subject.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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Sounds pretty cool to me. Nice job Chris and Sam.
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Byran
climber
Yosemite Valley, CA
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
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It's awfully hard to say without seeing it up close, isn't it?. I like aretes almost as much as I like cracks, though unfortunately the former doesn't usually protect with natural gear as well as the latter. It certainly looks like a great line up a stellar arete. If the climbing is natural and there's some obvious features out there then it could very well be a modern classic worth sinking 30 bolts for.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
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Byran, a modern classic that goes at 5.13b clip ups isn't going to be climbed by anything but a very small handful of people. Scott Cosgrove has 5.13 face routes in J-Tree that haven't seen repeats. And they're not 4 pitches of climbing. Just one pitch and they still don't get done.
A modern classic is something that people will actually get on and climb. If this was in the 11's or low 12's I think it could have a chance. But not at 13b.
A nice feather in the cap for the FA'ists, but I bet this thing sees less than 5 repeats in the next 5-10 years at best. But the 30 bolts will always be there.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 24, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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Hard sayin, not knowin.
Hi Beth! :-)
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Johnny K.
climber
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Oct 24, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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Crux pitch is 35 meters with 16 bolts,a bolt placed roughly every 7 feet...
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Oct 24, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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Having climbed this proud tower, I have to say...
Seems not the place for so much hardware, imo.
Yet, surely the line will speak for itself.
Some lines just say do it, eh.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 24, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
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A rap bolted line on Castleton Tower is sad. What happened to respecting the local ethics? A sport climb on a tower with a long history of traditional climbing sucks.
Put up, down I should say, by the same guy who did that pathetic thing Yodle This in the Tetons. The only top down line in the entire range. Why do we need so many bolts these days? The current trend of bolting everything is gonna come back to bite us one day.
Guess it's another disgrace he's bolted but can't climb.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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Johnny K, EXACTLY! A sport pitch on Castelton no matter how hard it is just seems wrong.
ps - Hi Larry! So the sushi you and Jay had was good?
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Oct 24, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
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Looks freaking awesome actually, I'll bet it gets done a lot. You old farts underestimate how many people climb 13b.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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Karo....5.13b desert sandstone tower climbing that it took this guy a couple of years and several partners to establish?
Don't think so.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:00am PT
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Yes Beth. Those guys make a mean roll.
Have you not been there?
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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Nope Larry. I'm vegetarian and veggie sushi is basically avacado and fake crab wrapped in rice. Not my thing.
But good to know...Steve loves sushi. Good to know they can kill it rolling in Moab.
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Rudbud
Gym climber
CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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Nice Job Chris and Sam! To bad its not 5.10 then every body would be stocked.
Let the hate commence.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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I think if anyone has earned the right to put in bolts on a tower, it is Sam Lightner - aside from the numerous bold and high quality new lines he has put in, I appreciate the huge amount of work he has done replacing crap gear with the ASCA and volunteering so much time and effort to the Friends of Indian Creek. Kalous isn't exactly a slouch either.
Looking down on a 4 pitch 5.13 free route that doesn't sound like a sport climb on a tower in a desert filled with bolt ladders also seems misguided. It isn't exactly like 5.13 routes don't get traffic in the desert - 5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic, as do lines in Mill Creek, on the Priest, and elsewhere in the desert.
Good job Sam and Chris.
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jsj
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:11am PT
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According to reports the climb requires at least a single set of cams from fingers all the way up to a #5. Also, it has "obligatory 5.12" - in other words, you can't A-O it. And yet the easiest pitch on it is still... 5.12.
Sounds pretty tRAD to me.
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The New Age Blitzo
Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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Hi Beth. Hi Larry!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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"I think if anyone has earned the right to put in bolts on a tower"
Really?? So someone can be more worthy of adding bolts to a tower than someone who hasn't done ASCA work?
"5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic"
Yeah, cause they're CRACKS. You can't send them without placing gear. Not bolted face. Even then the list of people who send those isn't that big. Belly Full of Bad Berries only gets sent by the top of the tier climbers.
"doesn't sound like a sport climb"
Yeah, 16 bolts on a pitch spaced 7 feet apart doesn't sound sport at all.
"in a desert filled with bolt ladders"
This is Castleton Tower, not some random piece of sandstone. See Donini's take upthread. He knows more about it than all of us.
On a happier note....
Hey Billy!! We'll be coming to visit you soon. Miss you. Glad you're doing well.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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Hi Blitzo!!
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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Top down = Zero accomplishment
Thats true anywhere and everywhere. Just another weenie with a power drill adding to his "resume". Whoop de do.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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I have a few thoughts on this, and don't worry - if we don't agree on these thoughts, we can still be friends :D
First off - It is difficult to give an opinion because I haven't climbed the route. Hell, I haven't even walked up to the base of it and looked at it. Rather than speculate on a route that may or may not be a high quality classic, I'll stick to stuff I like - things that are actually debatable at this point.
The idea that cliffs are "trad" or "sport" to me is like saying that rocks are "trad" or "sport." If a route doesn't have stances to be drilled ground-up, and frail (and sparse) flakes make hooking stances a death affair, the argument seems to be to let fallow.
I see the idea, that if it can't be done in a particular style, that it stay unclimbed. This dogma reeks of religion - arrogant conservatism in face of progress. There are no great western deserts desecrated by bolts, just like the 'gay agenda' isn't stealing your children from heterosexuality.
Beth is right, there AREN'T a lot of people that can climb 5.13. Granted, there are kids at my gym in high school that can absolutely dog their way up (if not redpoint the route in a few attempts), but to me that isn't the point.
Let time decide what routes are classic, let our friends who share our ropes enjoy using the mountain resources so long as they abide by the rules and are being gracious to others, and give the f*#king respect you ask for in ALL walks of life. This route probably means SO MUCH to those guys who put it up and worked their asses off, let some bolts sit out of the way of a route you may (OR MAY NOT) do because that experience enriched them and enriched others. This isn't a bolt ladder, there are routes in HIDDEN VALLEY CAMPGROUND with bolts spaced similar distances.
Joshua Tree, Idyllwild, Yosemite, the most hard-core traditional areas have cutting edge bolted rights right in view of well established trade lines. Give it up with the evangelical climbing, go get a beer, get laid and have a good time. We're all dying soon, is this worth giving a sh#t about?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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Yeah, 16 bolts on a pitch spaced 7 feet apart don't sound sport at all.
I know of a lot of 'trad' climbers that hang their way up cracks with gear every 4 feet :)
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 12:27am PT
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On 5.13's Greg?
If bolted 5.13 was so pedestrian, why haven't Cozzie's bolted 5.13 face routes (bolted, not sport) in J-Treee have not seen repeats in the years since he put them up?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:35am PT
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On 5.7's. Sh#t, I've done it. I feel safer on straight-in splitters that protect well than routes with bolts every seven feet.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:38am PT
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Everyone climbs the bolt ladders on The Nose and numerous other chiseled out big walls (thank you dudes from the past!), but as soon as there is a bolted free climb in place people start crying. Even on free climbs, back in the day if there was a head wall they couldn't free- here comes the bolt ladder!
Beth, would love to see you tell them to chop those 111 bolts from Middle Cathedral: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1962356/Father-Time-New-VI-Free-Route-on-Middle-Cathedral
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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If bolted 5.13 was so pedestrian, why haven't Cozzie's bolted 5.13 face routes (bolted, not sport) in J-Treee have not seen repeats in the years since he put them up?
This is a great question, because I agree - I've certainly seen a handful of 5.13's done first person, at Red Rocks.
In fact, today I worked with a guy who goes to college full time and is a computer engineering major, engaged, and likes to play video games who has climbed 5.13 (and only really boulders these days, but is much much stronger...)
Coz's routes are hard as F*#K. I don't think that means that all 5.13's are as hard....
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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I think its just rock climbing : /
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:45am PT
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Just realized it was Chris Kalous that bolted it... I recommend hearing his podcast before any personal attacks on the dude.
edit - I think I might be the only one that posts on Supertopo while simultaneously watching a drag queen reality show.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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I still need to head out there :( typically lazy california kid, never wanting to get sand-bagged in the real world hehehe...
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:02am PT
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What's stopping you Greg? It's there.
HIT IT!! :) You'll love it.
Moab rules. Just got back from 8 days there...best 8 days of my year thus far. Even better than all my 3 trips to Tuolumne this summer. It's heaven. Desert sandstone is the best.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:03am PT
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Sounds really cool to me, a hard route up a big tower. I say kudos to those guys.
I don't think this is breaking news either, but there are bolts all over castleton. There's like a 2 bolt variation start to Kor Ingals. Jay Smith has some hard looking arete up there somewhere I think.
JTree 5.13 doesn't get repeated much because its unfashionable. People capable of the grade would rather climb something steep and fun than thin and crispy.
I'll get on the bandwagon here and say HEY! to larry, blitzo and beth.
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orangesporanges
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:04am PT
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On an established clean tower
Climb it clean
Or take yer falls like a man
And hit the dirt
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:05am PT
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And I'll say HI Caughtinside!!!
Saw Larry last week at the Love Muffin in Moab. Seeing Billy soon in JT. The circle of friends will be complete.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:05am PT
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Alluring thing about Moab is the mountain biking rest days :)))
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:07am PT
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This isn't about the Creek. It's about Castleton Tower. Comparing apples and oranges.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:15am PT
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Hi Dave!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:23am PT
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bolted the line
does this mean that it did go in top down?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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This isn't about the Creek. It's about Castleton Tower. Comparing apples and oranges
Did you see any bolts on Kor Ingalls last time you climbed that? (I did!)
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:27am PT
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Since I've only been in the Castleton Tower area once, I can't comment on whether or not a bolt line is a desecration. But to say that because it's 5.13, it won't see very many repeats is just plain silly.
Time marches on. Yesterday's bizarrely difficult, never-to-be-repeated test pieces are today's tourist routes. Remember the origins of the Yosemite decimal system? 5.8 was the hardest grade imaginable. Only a couple of freakishly gifted and fearless men could climb at that grade. So leaving a 5.9 grade open would easily accommodate future advances, with 5.10 available for something a hundred years in the future.
And now? Where are we? 5.15c? Or is it just 5.15b?
So sure, if you think Castleton should not have bolted routes, I can't argue. Maybe you're right. But half the 13-year-olds at your gym probably hike 5.13, so that argument is a non-starter.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:29am PT
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> just next to the classic North Chimney.
Judging from the photo, I don't think it is actually visible from North Chimney. It looks to be 2 aretes to the left.
I haven't actually done North Chimney; I assume one is buried in the chimney and can only see the arete on the immediate left.
Actually the arete is visible while climbing the first pitch, although the bolts might not be if it climbs on the left side of the arete.
I suspect most people will be busy looking at the jams or at the Priest?
And apparently after the initial moves on p2, one is in the chimney and not seeing the arete anymore.
Your impact argument about a low traffic route is reasonably good,
but it might assume that all routes are equally enjoyable.
What if the route is 10x as enjoyable, but only has 1/10 the traffic of a comparison route?
Then the 2 factors net out....
I suppose here we might think it's more like 5x and 1/50 .
But we still have no real basis for trading off bolt visibility against enjoyment of a route.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:29am PT
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Ummm Vitaliy, Kor-Ingalls went up in 1961. They didn't have a lot of options to get up it back then.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:37am PT
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Why did they put in a bolt ladder on East buttress of Middle Cathedral back in the day instead of just rapelling off and waiting for a better climber to come along and run it out/take another variation? All these ethics are twisted.
Congrats to the people on their first ascents. Although rap bolting a line is quite a different experience than going from the ground up.....
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:38am PT
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Did you see any bolts on Kor Ingalls last time you climbed that? (I did!)
Kor Ingalls was done ground up. Just like every other route there. It also doesn't have a full pitch with bolts seven feet apart. The grade makes no difference. Easy or hard it makes no difference.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:42am PT
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I just looked over the FA more. Yeah, doing First Ascents on rap, is not so adventurous...don't even get the point of it actually. Just set up a top rope, rehearse the moves, and put in enough bolts. Hmmmm I guess you have a point Fluoride. Thought it was done ground up.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:44am PT
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Thanks Vitaliy.
I only wanted to point that out.
This is nothing like Layton, Jay, or any of the others who put up hard routes on the tower did.
It's obviously a great new hard route. But not like the ones that went up the tower in the past.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 02:13am PT
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Nope J. I don't want to give away their effort but I question their means of doing it in a place that doesn't seem to need it.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 02:18am PT
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Done Jebus. Here she is a week ago Saturday.
My problem is the huge number of bolts put up on a tower that doesn't need it.
PS, I've done Snake Dike via the Mist Trail.
PPS, why did you use this all in female context?
"hiker on the Mist Trail who is mad when she looks up and sees climbers unfairly hiking up Snake Dike."
I'm the only female in this thread and wish there were more.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 03:11am PT
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Night Jebus. Heading to bed too. Sweet dreams.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:29am PT
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Sounds like GU/ SFHD. Bad choice of proximity to historical sacred ground.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:45am PT
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Bolts on existing south face Castleton Tower routes
For caption see: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/106403495
(An older Ken Trout topo shows more like 14 bolts on the bolt ladder pitch of Midnight Cowboy).
p4 of Sacred Ground is a 5.12b bolted calcite face, next to the regular North Face, and you rap right down it on the way off Castleton.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/sacred-ground/105717517
I'm just trying to establish a comparison to existing bolts; others have mentioned them also.
In my view, this new bolted arete route is not much different from existing stuff.
> Wish more females got into this debate but none so far.
Why does this matter?
Apparently I am a male; does this make my viewpoint less interesting?
I could guess: do you expect other females would have good constructive arguments supporting your position?
I've seen plenty of guys on both sides of bolting arguments and this one does not seem much different.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite, ca
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Oct 25, 2012 - 05:05am PT
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Listen to Donini. If he doesn't approve, it was probably a bad idea.
I'd rather do the North Face than this seemingly contrived clip up.
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Powder
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Oct 25, 2012 - 06:44am PT
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I don't necessarily see it as a debate - it's a controversy that never ends. People simply are going to have different opinions.
My thoughts on this particular bolted line?
On an iconic tower where there have already been gear routes established, including a classic, why?!
Leave it be.
There are more than one rock and more than one tower - many untouched, exhibiting plenty of potentials for new routes, including hard challenging ones.
Wait a minute... It was not even ground-up.
To bolt, or not to bolt, that has always been, always is, and always will be the question. Since it's not what was asked here, I'm not going to spend time on it.
Whether geared, bolted, or mixed routes, it's a "climb" only when done ground-up.
If bolting, bolt at where gear is not possible; when establishing a bolted route, placing all bolts on lead.
The party worked hard on their project, indeed. Seeing a rap bolted line on such beautiful classic, I cannot help but feeling a bit sad.
A "mega classic"? Not quite; not in my book (if done ground-up, however, it'd be a somewhat different story.)
But hey what can I do? Find a rock, get on the wall, climb my climb. :]
-------------------
Edited 11/01/2012
My original post is in response to OP's question asking for thoughts regarding this particular line in a particular area.
...didn't mean to any disrespect in the original response. So therefore, later I decided that it's better to add more to it, though this addition might or might not be relevant to the topic.
To me, there is sport climbing, and then there is climbing.
Climbing is like evolution; it evolves.
Changes are inevitable.
Sport climbing seems to be the trend the new generation is bringing up.
The kind of the stuff this generation can do is pretty amazing. They train hard and work hard on their projects towards their goals. Their strength and devotion is undoubtfully extraordinary.
As the current trend evolves around speed and numbers, I feel like I'm almost lost in the transition, grabbing the root of more traditional climbing, in this fast paced new wave.
It is what it is. I don't have to be like others. Just do my own thing and climb my climbs.
It's what I do better.
I'm most comfortable by myself or being in a small group of a few companies. I perform better and feel more like in my elements when there aren't crowds waiting and watching. Solitude or the intimacy of being in a small setting is what I long for and what I prefer. A remote, alpine environment can easily provide that. Sport climbing and bouldering are exactly opposite, or they seem to be. Working on a route, surrounded by a bunch of spectators does not click with my personality.
I'm not athlete and I don't like to compete; I just want to get out, simply being there - in the mountains or in the wilderness, and enjoy it.
I like the nature lines, like the freedom, like the fact that I get to decide where I'd want to place pros or if I need to place any, not restricted and having to do the same certain moves like many others do in order to clip into that particular bolt. Most of all, I like the view seen along the way and atop of the climb!!
I like the adventurous aspect of climbing. One not only climbs, but route finding, time management, ability to read the weather and deal with various situations, skills in response to emergencies, the unknowns, the uncertainties, and did I mention the freedom... are all parts of the game. It's the whole package. It's what makes climbing fun and addictive, at least to me.
Gear routes is where my heart is. However, I have found it a good option to be able to do some bolted routes or sport climbs sometimes.
Some areas are trad paradise; some were developed as sport crags.
Bottom line: respect the local culture and if we don't like it, we don't have to climb it.
Somebody once said something, which I'm now rephrasing it in my own words:
Find the style that suits us the best.
Everyone is different; we all are seeking for different things, motivated by different means in life.
If diversity is what we look for, but we want the rest of the world to have the same voice as we do, aren't we contradicting ourselves?
Besides, if everyone holds the same opinion, the world would be such a boring place...
(And just because some of us have strong opinions and louder voices, doesn't mean we are all haters.)
There is no law of absolutely right or absolutely wrong in the world of climbing. Whether it's sport climbing or climbing, they are merely two sport/activity different by nature, even though they originated from the same thing.
We choose our own styles, follow our own stands, have our own beliefs, and try to get along. We don't have to agree but at least respect each others.
It's all about balance.
If every single individual is interested in following the natural lines, there are going to be traffics on many Alpine climbs, if not most. I certainly do not wish to see that.
If we all pursuit sport climbing, parks, forests, and wilderness will soon become gyms, just outdoors. That cannot be a good thing.
So let's just do our own things, climb our climbs, and let the nature take its course. Maybe sport climbing is going to dominate this new era. Who knows? Some years later, trad climbing might come back as retro.. As long as the "torch" is being carried on, it won't be completely lost in the future, or in history. And if not... whatever. All I know is, I will be climbing as long as I can and as much as I like, however/whatever it might become.
Back to the topic,
In the end, it doesn't matter what I think (or what many think), it is up to the local community to decide what is "accepted" and what is not. If the locals don't have anything to say, what place me as an "outsider" have to say what "should" and "is not supposed to" be done. Local culture & climbing ethics change and evolve just like everything else. Over time they might adapt, or not. Time will tell. Whatever and however it will become, it is what it is.
As for whether it's a classic or not, time will show and people will decide. Truth is, who cares what others think? If one consider a line is superb, then it is, to that individual, for climbing is after all, personal.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 08:07am PT
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/// "I think if anyone has earned the right to put in bolts on a tower"
// Really?? So someone can be more worthy of adding bolts to a tower than
// someone who hasn't done ASCA work?
Nice selective editing of my words. A Moab local like Sam who has put up dozens of new routes on towers, many of them previously unclimbed, dozens of new cragging lines, lots of repeats of bold towers routes that get very few ascents, and volunteers lots of time for the ASCA, the FOIC, lead efforts to keep Arches open after the Delicate Arch debacle, etc. really deserves the benefit of the doubt. He isn't some random bro brah rolling in from Boulder.
/// "5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic"
// Yeah, cause they're CRACKS. You can't send them without placing gear.
// Not bolted face. Even then the list of people who send those isn't that
// big. Belly Full of Bad Berries only gets sent by the top of the tier
// climbers.
Another nice selective edit. Mill Creek certainly isn't crack climbing, but 5.13 there gets regular traffic. The new crags with 5.13 sport climbs above Potash get lots of traffic. Hell, at Maple the 5.12 and 5.13s get more traffic than the 5.10s. I don't climb at Josh enough to know why hard routes there don't get traffic, but they certainly do in Utah.
/// "doesn't sound like a sport climb"
// Yeah, 16 bolts on a pitch spaced 7 feet apart don't sound sport at all.
A 4 pitch route with lots of 5.12 crack climbing on it isn't a sport route.
/// "in a desert filled with bolt ladders"
// This is Castleton Tower, not some random piece of sandstone. See
// Donini's take upthread. He knows more about it than all of us.
As has been pointed out, Castleton Tower has had bolt ladders on it for years. The Priest, just a couple of towers over, has a bolted 5.13 on it that sees traffic and people rave about. Bolts aren't bad - unnecessary bolts are bad. High end free climbing on towers is amazing. Castle Valley is fairly unique that way because of the calcite - Wingate face climbing is usually pretty rare. And I can respect Donini's opinion without agreeing with him.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 08:29am PT
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Andy, I didn't selectively edit, I took your own words verbatim. I'll do it again now.
"A 4 pitch route with lots of 5.12 crack climbing on it isn't a sport route."
16 bolts in a pitch spaced 7 feet apart with no gear? Really? What else would that pitch be called? Where's the "lots of crack climbing" on that?
And Mill Creek is all sport climbing. OF COURSE it's going to be all bolts. That's the nature of the rock up there. Completely different from the desert sandstone. You can't be serious in comparing that area to Castleton Tower.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2012 - 08:45am PT
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Hi Blitzo!
I was wondering about that Jay Smith route too, Caught. I looked at it once when I rapped the North face. It looked very thin and desperate.
Edit thanks for the link, Clint.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 09:17am PT
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Jay!!! Did it rain overnight? Still cold? We miss you already.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2012 - 09:52am PT
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Frost on the pumpkin, and everything else!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 09:59am PT
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Oh my....
Head to the Love Muffin and warm up!
And pet Micah and Benjamin for me if they cross your paths.
(those are local dogs, not people FYI).
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2012 - 10:10am PT
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Mica is on a roadtrip, sportclimbing with Guy. She said something about needing to drag him out of the shop....
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Oct 25, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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I've climbed lots of 5.10 and 5.11 versions of this route already, nothing new here to me. Cracks connected with some face climbing; you'd have to have not climbed much in Utah if you haven't done at least a few routes like that, especially on towers. This one looks super, super good; it inspires me to train up for it, stoke!
5.13b, while a grade I don't climb often these days, is like 5.12b just 15 years ago. Lots and lots of people climb that hard, just not so many that hang out on here (some do for sure, but let's face it, Supertopo is not generally home of the currently super fit). If this route were 5.11b would anyone have an issue with it? Or is it that, "it's too hard for me so it's a desecration?" idea? This route is simply doing what many others have done but at a somewhat higher modern grade, and it will get increasing traffic with time. I'm totally missing why it's causing a stir on here, it's just not a "new" thing in the desert.
Nice work Chris and Sam. Get your asses back up to Canada and finish some more Ghost routes now please.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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But Gil, it's not cracks connected with face. It's heavily bolted with very few sections of gear.
"Lots and lots of people climb that hard"
I hope so and that they make lots of ascents up this route since it's there and established now. I just don't see sport climbers at that level heading to Castle Valley to send this thing. I hope I'm wrong.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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let's face it, Supertopo is not generally home of the currently super fit).
Hey...wait a min....oh....ok...bye.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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As has been pointed out, Castleton Tower has had bolt ladders on it for years.
I think the difference OP wants to bring up is the style of the ascent. Ground up, connecting cracks with a bolt ladder vs rap from top/work the route on TR and put as many bolts as you feel needed from the top. I mean sh#t, I am 100% certain I can put up a route in Lovers Leap if I apply the same style. But the question is why?
He isn't some random bro brah rolling in from Boulder.
Certainly people who put this route up are AMAZING climbers if they can climb 5.13 on lead. But why is a local guy held to a lower standard than a random dude from Boulder? Local climbers should lead by example.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Yeah, you don't if it "goes" when you put up a bolt ladder from the ground up.... It's cool if you aim for some cracks though (i.e., save money on more bolts). What a hold back in ethical judgment.
Personally, I do not think bolt ladders are appropriate. It kinds of defeats the impossible...but at least it is going from the bottom to the top.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:52am PT
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Ethics are twisted.
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Jimmy Russells
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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Manufactroversy (măn’yə-făk’-trə-vûr’sē)
N., pl. -sies.
1. A manufactured controversy that is motivated by profit or extreme ideology to intentionally create public confusion about an issue that is not in dispute.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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I think this emphasis on ground up or not distorts things a bit.
I'm not sure how many of you have tried putting in bolts on lead, by hand or with a power tool.
If the route was going in anyway, I'm glad it was done on rap. It is just too easy to make poor decisions obout bolt placement on lead. Often you can't find a hook placement, and have to drill from a marginal stance. This can result in poor bolt placement as well as shoddy unsafe bolts. It is especially difficult to bolt on lead in sandstone, stances and hook placements are too rare.
Considering this, it seems that this route was done in an ethically more conservative way than some of the older routes that relied on bolt ladders.
The real question is weather routes with protection bolts should even be established in these areas.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
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Bunch of Californians arguing against locals about desert ethics based on their trips to IC and the North Chimney. STFU.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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pointless arguments I guess...
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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16 bolts in a pitch spaced 7 feet apart
If this is accurate, it has no place on a landmark like Castleton tower, and is not an advance in climbing, but something more like vandalism. It's not a sport climbing tower, although there are doubtless many other faces that could be bolted. Why not drive a few hours north where there are huge canyon areas that could be developed where there are no local rules or history? Just bring your air compressor and you're good to go.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Don Paul, you don't get to decide that Castleton is not a sport climbing tower, even if you say it all authoritarian like. Don't like it? Don't climb it. Looks like an awesome route up an awesome arete, nice job Kalous and Lightner.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
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Jesus christ. Another bolt-nazi complaining there are bolts on something harder than 5.7r.
"5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic"
Yeah, cause they're CRACKS. You can't send them without placing gear. Not bolted face. Even then the list of people who send those isn't that big. Belly Full of Bad Berries only gets sent by the top of the tier climbers.
I've seen more 5.14 bolted routes get traffic than 5.13 crack routes. What the hell are you on about "cause they're CRACKS."? Indian Creek is known to have the best splitters around. On Sandstone at that.
You're comparing a 5.13+ overhanging offwidth to general 5.13 traffic? You must be on something.
This seems like your (Flouride) list of skills in climbing levels:
5.5-5.6 - noobs
5.7 - weekend warriors
5.8-5.9 - skilled climbers
5.10 - hardmen
5.11 - Donini
5.12 - ???wtf?
5.13 - Top tier climbers.
5.14 - ??
5.15 - five what?
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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Bolt is not a four letter word. Ah F*#k, I just counted it again and it is. F*#k.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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The route sounds great, congrats to the fa team! The nearby Nuns have a bolted 5.11 face climb, Holier than Thou, that I climbed long ago, on calcite. That rippled calcite can provide amazing face holds in outrageous situations. If this route is of the same quality, then it will be outstanding!
Just had breakfast with one of the original fa team, Layton. I told him about this route, he was mostly just amazed at the level of difficulty that 5.13 meant. Far beyond anything he could do, and a whole different game to what he played.
Good discussion here. have not seen the climb A few thoughts:
The arete that gets climbed seems independent enough from North Chimney that it does not detract from the experience of climbing the N Chimney. That's a plus. Actually pretty essential. Excommunication is far more independent, for sure. Routes are a bit crowded on Castleton. Partly the nature of the more cracked and featured terrain.
Long ago, Ed Webster placed a long bolt ladder nearby up the Arrowhead (12-14 bolts?) so that his route Midnight Cowboy or Stardust Cowboy or whatever it was called could keep going upward to an independent finish. With hindsight, he became a bit sheepish about adding so many bolts that really served no use to anyone nor provided any climbing. But they are still there. No one complains.
I always find kind of ugly and sad the bolts under the roof left of Kor Ingalls (placed by Dan Osman, I recall?). An abandoned project, but not really any kind of line in the first place. The line did not work out but were left. An eyesore, for sure. Says something about how rapping and placing bolts can produce a better result than placing them ground-up, at least sometimes.
A rap bolted line on Castleton Tower is sad. What happened to respecting the local ethics?
Well, that's a good question. I think Jay Smith's Sacred Ground was the first new route established on Castleton Tower by a "local." This is the second route done by a local. What does that tell us?
These days there is a flourishing local community in Moab and Castle Valley. Mostly the locals are trying to develop new routes that provide a variety of climbing experiences and levels. Trying to drag the desert into the 21st century. There is a balance to be found, for sure. In the past, most of us visitors have tried to hew carefully to what we have seen as a high ethical standard. But not always.... The locals are seeking, and I think finding, a nice balance for the crags and towers around Moab. Castleton Tower has perhaps the best rock for many miles, so if a bolted 5.13 face route will be found anywhere, then Castleton Tower is the place to find it.
Having said that, criticism is a great thing. Just because Sam LIghtner is a local and has been climbing for decades does mean give him or anyone else any entitlement. These towers are treasures, world-reknowned. A shared resource. Carping keeps a climber honest.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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Nicely said ^^^
Neat looking line. Topo on FB and the comments are positive (as FB is want to be, I suppose).
Sport pitch on a fairly "trad" style line it seems. 5.12 "obl"...ha ha. I like's me some obl ratings, but, way way way above my pay grade.
Kudos to the lads. Big effort. It'll see traffic. Kids are crankin' these days. Something has to get them out of Millcreek every once in awhile..ha ha.
Warm up on this?:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/excommunication/105718708
Cheers!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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Not commenting on whether it belongs or not. I don't have enough info to opine.
But the assertion that 5.13 sport climbs in popular places are rarely climbed seems off. If anything, it seems likely to be clogged with people dogging it, which seems to be the preferred mode of ascent at the grade. Did I skim too quickly about the nature of its protection?
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cowpoke
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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so glad I tuned in to read crunch's eloquent post.
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steve shea
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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Get Hayden Kennedy, he'll show'em what for.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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I don't recall a similar bunch of whining when Greg Child bolted the arete "Excommunication" on the Priest.
Almost an exact comparison...established tower, Castle Valley, primarily bolted but with some gear mixed in, and a 13 crux pitch.
I'd also love to hear of all these unrepeated Cosgrove 5.13 Josh routes Beth keeps talking about. I know of exactly ONE unrepeated Coz route, G-String (which is an extreme reach problem, a quintessential tall man route, so no big surprise that it's the one that hasn't been repeated). So please elighten me as to what the other unrepeated ones are.
I say good for them, hard free climbing on an iconic tower, in spectacular position. Nice one boys. And 13b isn't exactly cutting edge, it's kind of the bottom entry grade for actual "hard" climbing...8a, you know. And besides, Kalous sent it, so how hard can it be really?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Get Hayden Kennedy, he'll show'em what for.
Kinda funny...'cause his dad commented on Facebook about it...!
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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What defines classic?
Because the rock formation has been there for a really long time?
Or because there was a route established on it before you were born?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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And besides, Kalous sent it, so how hard can it be really?
OUCH!
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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this thread is just a bunch of california sprayhards talking to each other about a route they'll never try or even see most likley. go climbing for crying out loud!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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Crunch..... well said.
+1
And to Sam and Chris .... good job, way to go.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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I'm just confused by this double standard you BITD guys have.
------------------Against-----------
Hard face climbs being bolted because the traffic on that route will be low. - Because it will damage the rock
Bolts being every 7 feet. - Because it will damage the rock
--------------------Pro--------------
Hammering cracks to fit your gear. - Because it was classic
Bolt Ladders. - Because it was classic
Putting a bolt every 50 feet on "moderate" terrain. - Because it was classic
-----------------Conclusion-----------
Why do you guys really care? YOU'LL NEVER SEE THOSE BOLTS. You wouldn't DARE try to climb it.
It's okay, isn't looked down on, and you guys stroke the shaft to the cusp of people who hammered the sh*t out of cracks because it was "BITD."
Bolt ladders on faces that are now free climbable, but weren't back then, are fine because it was "BITD", therefore not looked down on, and they're still acceptable on "It's impossible to free climb terrain".
You're getting pissed at bolts being every 7 feet on a 5.13b, harder than you could possibly free climb, yet putting a bolt every 40-50 feet on Tuolumne's fine domes is "totally rad" because it's an unsafe ego trip to minimalize the damage to the rock, referring to bolt ladders... previously...
Your guys's sh*tty double standard may look cool in your eyes, but it looks f*cking ignorant and moronical in mostly everyone elses'.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Good point Michael. This is why I am confused (bolt ladders/smashing tiny cracks with pins BITD vs rap bolting a super hard face route now. Both do not sound like perfect styles to me. But no reason to say someone is clearly WRONG. Don't like it- don't climb it). I guess there always will be different points of view, and you can't please everyone.
Lesson of the day: have fun with style that suits YOU, be honest about it. Everything else is a pointless argument.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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Don't like it don't climb it. Or at least climb it before you complain about it. No matter what, when you put up a route, someone will not like how you did it. People who are so worried about style miss out on a lot of great climbing. Climb on.
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all in jim
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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"Lesson of the day: have fun with style that suits YOU, be honest about it. Everything else is a pointless argument."
+1 ^^^
"Or at least climb it before you complain about it."
+1 ^^^
"Shut up and Climb"
+1 ^^^
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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I don't care if they climbed it by rappelling upside down. Clearly, such an icon needs to be on the Grid, if our sport is to advance.
Decaria established a similar arete on Sister Superior, just downrange, about 12 years ago. The coming generation should be able to slack line between the two routes any day now.
A consensus against bolt ladders on Towers was the justification for chopping Beckey's A0 FA on Zeus, by some Athena Nike. Lest we forget, we've always the spalled scars as a mute testimonial.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
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putting a bolt every 40-50 feet on Tuolumne's fine domes is "totally rad" because it's an unsafe ego trip to minimalize the damage to the rock
Take it back to the hive.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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So whats the real deal? We all get to bag on our betters now? What makes Lightner and Cris better climbers than 99% of these posters are that they just STFU and went climbing. Castleton is a great location, but I don't see anyone who can get up the thing bagging on it or these guys. They're good guys and good climbers. Yes, of course it's the internet, we should sh#t on them. NOT. We should just wander over and actually look at the route. Nevermind.
You read that right. Sh#t, where's WandeFuca when you need a good troll.
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BruceAnderson
Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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Amen Coz!!
And nice send Kalous!
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Yes, Bruce, I am serious.
We were pretty disappointed to finally make it out to Taylor Cyn, and see the damage. The spalls are a couple of inches across.
Worse, someone obviously did the route, and then "backcleaned" it (since it diagonals).
Now, if they'd only known, then, how to chop properly.
What happened on Castleton can never happen in Canyonlands NP. I prefer BLM lands due to a lack of RR&Rs, at least for now. But, in Canyonlands: no hammering, no bolts (nowadays, climbers have been known to simulrappel off opposite side of a tower, since no new rap anchors are allowed) except in a life - threatening emergency...no chalk (generally ignored)...etc.
I'm not aware of any public land stewardship which presses the imperative to "preserve and protect for future generations."
Is this a good agenda?
Try to get a permit to bivi down on the White Rim...or in The Maze. A combination lock guards the 10mi 4x road to the "Tower" Anasazi ruin in the Needles District. 1st come, 1st served, no reservations for the combination...and it's 60 miles from Moab to the Visitors Center to get the permit.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
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Seems like sour grapes and much ado about nothing. If you can't climb it, why be bothered by it. Does a view of bolts ruin your Desert experience?
Can we say Growing Up on Half Dome?
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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Locker vs Donni. Knife fight at dawn.
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Epic E
Big Wall climber
CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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I don't like it because I cant climb it is what all the fuss is about. Instead of congratulating them on the send, pick it apart and call them out for not going ground up.
All the folks who don't understand why they didn't go ground up will never understand why and you will never climb a 5.13 "sport route". And im sure you could care less.
Why wouldn't you criticize a hard sport route? Theirs no way your going to put the time in to get stronger to climb it, . Keep putting your time and efforts into making other peoples achievements look bad on the internet.
Do any of you haters have any hard face climbs that you put up on lead that you could tell us about? I would like to climb them if you do. Where they at?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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Locker vs Donni. Knife fight at dawn. Lol!
Well Donini has the reach, and the training, but locker is scrappy and agile. he might be able to run between his legs before taking a stab to the heart or other vital spot.
Somehow I see those two cracking up in laughter before getting lethal....
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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Hi Jaybro!
Edit: !!!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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I don't recall anywhere near this much squabble over Excommunication. Is Castleton that much more sacred than the next door tower?
And when I look at that picture earlier in the thread with Sam and Chris's list of folks that they thank...it's a pretty solid list of Moab/Utah locals. Brad, Lisa, etc. If those folks are OK with it, I don't think too many out of the area folks have any right to complain.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 25, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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My $ is on Locker. I bet the dudes been in a bottle fight or two. :)
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
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My $ is on Locker. I bet the dudes been in a bottle fight or two.
+1
dude looks like something out of metallica video
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
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Dunno. Ever had Donini fix that icy stare on ya? Feller doesn't need a knife...
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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Sounds like a win/win.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Oct 25, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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i agree with Jim.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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Don't swallow!
Next bout
The Kid vs The Coz
Should be a good match. Unless they get all bromantic.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 25, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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(photo stolen from Mtn Proj)
Just another example ^^ Bolted .13 arete right next to trad "classics".
As for the new Castleton Route.. I try not to spray about anything I haven't seen in person so I don't really have an opinion about it either way.
Edit to add: Locker.. I'm going to have nightmares now. What has been seen.. cannot be unseen. :0
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 25, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
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That arete looks too classic. Why is it bolted?
I can't climb that hard.
Tossers!
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 25, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
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Tossers!
No that would be the guy that just puked in his mouth.
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Sam Lightner, Jr
Social climber
WY
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Oct 25, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
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Some clarification for all of you.
First, Chris botled nothing. He redpointed the crux pitch... I bolted it.
Most of the bolts were place on rappel, but not all. If you place a bolt, place a good bolt... but try not to place a bolt. That is my philosophy.
The bolt every 7 feet thing is inaccurate... that may be the math, but I think you will find it a bit more spacious than that.
This is not the first bolted route on the tower. Obviously the older classics have them in certain places, like the two next to the crack on K.I. More to the point, Dan Osman bolted a line on the tower a few years before he died, and Jays route on the North Face is bolted. Nearby, Excommunication, but also Holier than Thou on the Nun, and the usual finish for people on Fine Jade. Twenty five feet left of this arete is a bolt ladder, the Arrow Route, with more bolts than this line. That is the only route you can see all the bolts in the crux from. Someone should take Huntely Ingals, Harvey Carter, and Layton Kor to take for bolts too, if thats what you have a problem with. None of the crack moves on this thing are bolted, just so you know. There is no reason for that. You do need to crack climb to do this route.
Those of you who said kudos, thank you. Its a really cool line. Those who ripped on me, whatever. Enjoy yourselves. Please don't climb this route, which by the way is the only one on the tower with bolts that are painted to match the rock, if you do not like that it was put up. Specifically, Jim, your pretense of purity gets old.
edit... this is probably the last I will have to say on st for a while. enjoy.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 25, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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Good job on a route I'll never venture to Sam.
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Epic E
Big Wall climber
CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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I heard this chick already got the second accent. The word is she thinks its a soft 13b.
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skywalker
climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:38am PT
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I'm with Jeremy!
Is that real???
Yikes!
S....
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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If I was with that BABE it would be a hard 8+
Adopted the metric system, did ya?
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Brad Barlage
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Oct 26, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
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I have been on the route and it is far from a "bolt ladder".
Sam has put up a lot of routes, and he did Ivory Tower right: safely bolted where there's no gear,and more space between hardware where the climbing is secure. Sam put a lot of hardwork and soul into the route.
If you've ever climbed in the desert, you've very likely clipped one of Sam's anchors. The entire community benefits from Sam's anchor replacement work and climbing preservation efforts.
Thanks for the new route, Sam. Congrats on the FFA to Sam and Chris Kalous...really inspiring to me.
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The Alpine
climber
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Oct 27, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
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Blah blah blah.
I can understand the no bolt sentiment, but so what. Seems like a bad ass line that does not impede on the other routes.
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Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
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Oct 28, 2012 - 09:39am PT
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Great post Sam and inspiring route. Looking forward to seeing it with my own eyes in a week or two (from a neighbouring route!).
Fluoride, the anti-bolt dogma that you cling to makes no sense when compared with the existing routes on Castleton (bolted pitch just left of the north chimney) and it is obvious that you just don't understand when you suggest Belly Full of Bad Berries as a 5.13 route that gets little traffic. No sh#t, it is a feet first puke fest! Then you suggest that Mill Creek is all sport which begs the question have you ever been there?
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
overchalking on Grant's Crack
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Oct 28, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
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Sounds like a great line. Nice job kids.
If anyone can be accused of thoughtless bolt placement, it isn't Sam. I bet he did a damn good job. Certainly he's been given a lot to think about in years and years of fixing other people's worn-out hardware and botch jobs.
"Bunch of Californians arguing against locals about desert ethics based on their trips to IC and the North Chimney. STFU." Ha! +1 for that.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Oct 28, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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Didn't read all the posts but I thought there already was a sport pitch on Castleton. Isn't there a sport line variation for the last pitch of the North Face? Thought it was a 5.12 or something.
Not saying that there should be more or anything, guess its not for me to say...
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Scott Bennett
Trad climber
Superior, Colorado
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I'm late to the conversation, been out in the desert for a while.
I'm just writing to address the folks who complained that "only a small handful of people will ever be able to do" this route, and so it shouldn't be bolted.
The routes been up for less than two weeks, and has already seen three more attempts and one more redpoint (that I know of). I'm sure more attempts, and more sends, will go down in the next few weeks; the weather is perfect!
I can also vouch for the amazing quality of the rock and the moves. And of course the position is out-of-this-world!
Huge thanks to Sam for crafting this gem, and thanks to Chris for being badass!
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Epic E
Big Wall climber
CA
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"Bunch of Californians arguing against locals about desert ethics based on their trips to IC and the North Chimney. STFU." Ha! +1 for that.
Its funny how a route in Utah could be a problem in California. You guys are the shit! keep on sending out there and we'll keep arguing over here, makes me wish I was still living over that way. I definitely know some folks from CO that will be heading over to send it too.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
overchalking on Grant's Crack
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Maybe some Californian complainers should go take the West Face apart, I bet no one's been on it since the arete got climbed. And that Arrowhead atrocity...who climbs that anymore?
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Epic E
Big Wall climber
CA
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Its really unbelievable how many shitty climbers there are in California that complain about everything. If your looking for shitty climbing partners with good ethics come on out to California.
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Jimmy Russells
climber
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More to the point, Dan Osman bolted a line on the tower a few years before he died
More to the point, he put a few bolts into a roof next to some cool dino tracks and never finished it. Dano was an amazing, wonderful human being but those bolts are 10x worse than the new arete bolts. They don't go anywhere and I bet no one's even used them since the FA. Prime example that establishing routes "from the ground up" is sometimes not a good idea. Funny how you never hear about these bolts from "concerned citizens" like Flouride and Donini.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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A Califronia Complainer? Is that like a New York Nick?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Tokyo Tea....
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md307
climber
jackson, wy
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Nov 14, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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Wow, what a lot of hate. I have been on the route; it’s hard, aesthetic and proud. If you weren’t looking for it you wouldn’t be able to find it. My guess is that anyone that gets on it (and gets to the top!) will be psyched. If you are really going to discuss the value and appropriateness of a climb on Castleton then you should move one climb to the left. I believe it’s the “arrow route” and THAT IS a tasteless bolt ladder. It may have been done ground up but who cares? In my opinion that route was stolen from the future, with half as many bolts in different placements my guess is that the “arrow route” would go free as a spectacular face climb. Well done Sam.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 14, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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I agree with Gilwad. We won't complain if you put up some more routes in the Ghost. There was a lot of controversy around here when people started putting up long sport routes near Canmore. This died down after a bit and they became accepted.
I wish I could climb 5.13
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howie doin'
climber
Big Pine, CA
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Nov 14, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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Castleton Tower is a sacred stone for climbers. I hope this new line proves to be proud and deserving of respect in our greater community. I hope it provides for an enjoyable and aesthetic climbing experience for those who can send at that grade. Anything less is a desecration. Style of ascent matters less in this case, if it meets the above criteria.
The bigger issue of concern here is the apparent lack of consensus amongst prominent Moab area climbers before action was taken on an iconic desert tower. Who knows what kind of disrespect could be done in the future?
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benkiessel
Trad climber
Gunnison, Co
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Nov 14, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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Personally I'm super stoked about this route. I think it took some real vision to find this line.
I don't understand all the complaints.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 14, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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Hmmmm.
I have nothing but respect for Chris, don't really know Sam.
But I have climbed with the Colofornian whiners too.
I'm with the "haters gonna hate" school.
The only way I see to calm people down about this route is to go ahead with a bottom to top bolt ladder on the Nuns for BASE jumpers called Force Of Habit,..
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Bill Grasse
climber
Durango, CO.
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Nov 14, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
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I think that this thing looks sick! Nice job Sam! I don't understand all the hatin.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 14, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
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How about Farce of Habit?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 14, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
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Nah, that would have to be with a hand drill.
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Epic E
Big Wall climber
CA
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Nov 14, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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"apparent lack of consensus amongst prominent Moab area climbers"
More Californian complaining will get everybody over in the moab area together for a consensus for sure next time.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Nov 14, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
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Did you guys hear? Someone found the G-spot!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 14, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
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Someone found the G-spot! I didn't know it got lost
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Nov 14, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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I have not seen it in person, and probably could not make it up the thing if I was there. HOWEVER, it looks pretty bad ass from the topo and description. Good on the FA party for having the vision to develop an (apparently) awesome route.
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Farky
Big Wall climber
Durango, CO
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Nov 15, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
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I remember when I heard about a 10-pitch 5.11 sport route in Zion. I was blown away. In a land of splitter cracks and splitter routes, I enjoyed plugging gear and cranking jams. Just listening about it made me cringe. 10 pitches, all those damn bolts!!! Made me sick. It took a while but what the...I climbed it. Wow...what a route. Superb. All the right bolts, spaced out for some spice, a wonderful route by some insightful climbers. So...
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Nov 15, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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I'll never climb it. But wow, that thing looks RAD. Good job you guys!
There is nothing like a rad arete route....double exposure!
Oh, by the way.........I know all about the G spot.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 15, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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Articles like the one posted in the OP are why I stopped reading Climbing years ago. Who the fuh-ch cares about some 5.13 sh#t.
Way more fun here talkin about twinkies and sheat.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 15, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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Who the fuh-ch cares about some 5.13 sh#t.
You know like a fifth of the world watched the olympics, right?
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
SEKI
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Nov 16, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
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I'm late to this thread but wow, what a bunch of lame arguments against this route. It looks badass.
RIGHT ON SAM! CONGRATULATIONS!
I posted the text below in an appreciation thread about Sam a while back but I think I'll repost it here after reading so much negative bullsh#t.
Sam had just climbed his 100th desert tower when I posted this...
"Just climbing 100 towers in the desert is impressive but what really struck me were the stats that went along with those towers...
29 were done solo
69 had anchor replacement or required new anchors
20 via a new route
12 were first ascents of the tower
I'm posting this because he would consider it bad form to spray about his contributions online.
BUT COME ON!
Out of 100 towers he has taken the time to install solid anchors on 69 of them. That's freaking awesome! Having been there for a few of those towers I can attest that replacing old angles and faded slings with half inch bolts and beefy chain does not make for a light pack! In fact, we weighed his solo haulbag the last time I was in Moab and it came in at 77lbs.
He has also
1. Funded the anchor replacement work he has done.
2. Served on the board of the Access Fund for 6 years.
3. Put up hundreds of routes from Utah to Thailand that have been enjoyed by thousands of climbers from all over the world.
4. Written 7 books including the guidebook for Thailand, All Elevations Unknown (about a wild expedition to a giant spire in the heart of Borneo that had never been explored by climbers), Exotic Rock (which covers Japan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Morocco, Greece, Norway, and South Africa), and the Roads Through Time series. (The Moab - Roads Through Time book is particularly interesting if you spend much time in the area)
5. Served 3 years as the President of the Moab Area Climbers Alliance, who's goal is to restore/improve the relationship between climbers and the NPS units in the Moab area."
Not covered above is the fact that Sam has been involved with Friends of Indian Creek for years and is currently the President.
In short, Sam has done a LOT for our climbing community (including putting up an amazing arête route on Castleton) and all of you haters should calm down, get some perspective, and go climb something!
Brad Brandewie
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Nov 16, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
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But being whiney about someone putting those god forbidden bolts on ultra classic crags is cooler than actually climbing.
"I don't always climb, but when I do, I make sure it's 5.9"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 16, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
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Ya ya,
I've climbed a few towers and left solid anchors on them.
Everybody should.
If they wanna whine let 'em whine over slouch jobs!
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rapchopper
Trad climber
moab, utah
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NOTE: this route is number 1 on the chop list. Blatant disrespect to the most proud tower in the desert... You dont do this to desert towers....
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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make sure you use your real name so everyone knows who to give credit.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Wait until after I get on it though...
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Bitching and whining like a bunch of tea-drinking old grandmothers on an internet forum is super effective.....keep up the good work.
Dont forget, chopping is ugly too. Minimize the damage thats already done by not causing more with estrogen or testosterone filled idealism and angst. If you dont like it dont climb it. If you dont live there, dont raise such a stink. Help the locals do whatever theyre gonna do, but jeebus jehosephat, pick your goddamn fights.
Most on here can do nothing but aid up the damn thing anyway or come down from the top. I dont like the fact that old boy put bolts up there, but its done, its there. Do our best to stop flagrant and unnecessary bolting, but until we can climb 5.13, how will we know if its unnecessary? Just because we/you/they dont climb 13 doesnt mean that its a blasphemy
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weezy
climber
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NOTE: this route is number 1 on the chop list. Blatant disrespect to the most proud tower in the desert... You dont do this to desert towers....
MOMMY MOMMY LOOK I'M TROLLING ON THE COMPUTER!
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Only time will tell if the bolts are worth it. I know I will certainly never climb it. I dont think I could climb 13b at my physical prime so it is not going to happen for me in this lifetime. If superhero climbers that can climb 13+ actually go out and enjoy this route, I see no problem with it. if the route languishes into obscurity, it seems the bolting could be viewed as unnecessary since only a few extract enjoyment from the route.
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rapchopper
Trad climber
moab, utah
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Jan 25, 2013 - 11:25am PT
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Hey weezy, i did find your mom on the computer, Redtube you should check her out
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Scole
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
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Why?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
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If superhero climbers that can climb 13+ actually go out and enjoy this route, I see no problem with it. if the route languishes into obscurity, it seems the bolting could be viewed as unnecessary since only a few extract enjoyment from the route.
The same should apply to "museum climbs" that were sketched up by some dude on acid back in the 70's and haven't been touched since. If the standard is maximum enjoyment for those who would use that chunk of rock, why limit access to all those otherwise fun 5.8's by insisting that the original 40+ foot runouts be maintained?
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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Jan 25, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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So following that logic, an obscure bolted sport route that is rarely climbed should be chopped? Who thinks routes are put up solely for noobs enjoyment? I happen to like runout slabs.
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BrentA
Gym climber
Roca Rojo
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Jan 25, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
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This thread really mystifies me.
Two life-long established climbers, whom are known to live way on the good side of the style curve, establish a stellar looking arete climb on a classic tower.
What is the point of the story here? You aren't allowed to put new bolts on old towers?
I genuinely don't understand the counter-argument to this route.
This thread has more hate than the Fisher Towers slack line thread.
Climbings crazy.
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rapchopper
Trad climber
moab, utah
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Jan 27, 2013 - 06:56am PT
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When you have a reputation as a rap bolter you are not looked at as an established climber but more of a rich prick that has no concern for desert climbing ethics.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 27, 2013 - 07:25am PT
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When you are too chickenshit to use your real name when you spray negative sh#t about other climbers you come off as a complete and totall as#@&%e.
Nick Goldsmith
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rapchopper
Trad climber
moab, utah
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Jan 27, 2013 - 11:24am PT
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I am a total as#@&%e who plays by the original ethics of desert climbing... I witness the best quality climbs being established from the ground up by the hardest climbers on the planet. If you dont want to run into as#@&%es like me i would suggest areas that have different climbing ethics. Its like climbing in the Czech Repub. with cams..... So i ask who is really the as#@&%e?
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 27, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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Meh. If you can't stand behind your words you are a coward not an azzhole.
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rapchopper
Trad climber
moab, utah
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Jan 28, 2013 - 07:42am PT
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Hey Larry, hope your dog shits in your truck again....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:39am PT
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Our rules are pretty damn stupid sometimes. not only are the rulzs stupid but they are highly situational depending on who you are. Folks with the right street creds get a free pass while no names or less populer/out of towners get crucified.
According to the rulze it is completly aceptable to establish an aid line ground up with all kinds of trenching, chiseling, drilling, chipping and hammering yet a free climber who chips a single hold is crucified and god forbid someone established a hard free climb that atually makes sense and has the clips in the right places. I have done my share of GU bolting and sometimes it works out great but other times you end up with a sh#t show that could have been avoided with some pre inspection and planning. It sounds like Dannos incomplete line of ground up bolts on Castelton could have been avoided with a bit of pre inspection?
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rapchopper
Trad climber
moab, utah
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Jan 30, 2013 - 05:52am PT
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Tradman, boy you really got it figured out.....Lay off the crack pipe!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 30, 2013 - 06:44am PT
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Don't smoke, do drugs or drink. Guess that violates a few of your rules as well....
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jan 30, 2013 - 07:03am PT
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I think you've got a good point tradman.
I've noticed the same thing.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 30, 2013 - 09:12am PT
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I am a total as#@&%e who plays by the original ethics of desert climbing
No, you're a 14 year old kid from sheboygan.
Because you see, you cannot claim anything about the strength of your character when you remain anonymous online. You may have many valid opinions and points, but you are an anonymous person so I get to assume your identity.
Go have your mom make you a hot pocket, like the good little virgin teenager you are. One day you can bring a name or a face to your cred, but until then you have to sit at the kids table.
Greg
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:04am PT
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You american dogs have no site or the balls with all these bolts! Little peepee and big bolts for the american dogs! WOOF!! LOL!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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Is Pelut the Mexican/Spanish version of Werner?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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Pelut is pissed because he got busted for cheating his way up stuff in the Fishers.
Big Spaniard, little ballz, or something like that.
But his mama was plenty friendly.....
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
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+100 for tradman.
-10^5 for rapchuffer.
I've always been appalled by the damage aid climbers do, especially in soft sandstone, and especially when they whine about bolts on sport climbs.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jan 30, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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the californicated tradiban need to get over themselves. Your ethics are in your own head, and have nothing to do with the reality of modern rock climbing.
Besides, the chalk and shiney chains on the IC traderoutes with waiting lines are way more of a visual and environmental impact than bolts on a 13 you will never be fit enough to do.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 30, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
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Pelut is pissed because he got busted for cheating his way up stuff in the Fishers.
Big Spaniard, little ballz, or something like that.
Actually he's a troll. Not the real Pelut.
This is the real Pelut. un de tants
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=Ozo1PDc3JyYl
Hey rapbolter, make sure you climb the route before you chop. Otherwise you're a hypocrite!!
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jan 30, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
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Hey rapbolter, tell what is your motivation to spent time chopping and rappelling instead of climbing?
Is puling the bolts give to you physical pleasure?
Are you proud that you chopped specific routes you can spray about? ( do you use your real name for spray?)
Anything else I missed?
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melski
Trad climber
bytheriver
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ahr,,there pilgrims,,thee oribill truth i;s ,,now we gatta bunch ah these kid whipper,winers,snivlen,about havento pay back all those loans fer somsmarts that dont pay,,at the base of a perfectly good stone ,,,,ahr,,,thats all i;m talking bout,,,
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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*sigh* You start out reading something like this and think you've got something to contribute, but after a couple pages you realize there are 217 comments and several people have already done said what I think.
Karodrinker was correct back on page one, there are more people climbing 5.13 than you think, they just don't post here on the old folks home.
I'm pretty much in the "its a big tent and there's room for everyone at the table" camp, though I certainly understand and sympathize with Donini's reaction.
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| Messages 1 - 182 of total 182 in this topic |
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some they might wish they had done
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