New bolted 5.13b route on Castleton Tower.

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Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 24, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
http://www.climbing.com/news/wild-new-5-13-on-utahs-castleton-tower/

30 new bolts on the tower for them to send this. Great effort but not sure how I feel about all those bolts on a route only a small handful of people will ever be able to do just next to the classic North Chimney.

Thoughts?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 24, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
Bolted routes should be reserved for places where gear routes can't be established. I've done six routes on Castleton and there are many more...the last thing the tower needs is a bolt line. Lot's of virgin rock in the area, take your f*#king drill somewhere else.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
Thanks Jim. You echoed my thoughts about this. Just seems wrong to do a massively bolted route on such a classic.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Oct 24, 2012 - 10:48pm PT



donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
It's Donini....certainly where the bolts are you can't use conventional gear We aren't talking about a swath of wingate sandstone, we are talking about an iconic tower with a plethora of established CLASSIC routes. Leave it be.


edit: It's a free world and bolting on BLM land is permitted, I'm only giving my personal opinion and will say no more on the subject.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Sounds pretty cool to me. Nice job Chris and Sam.
Byran

climber
Yosemite Valley, CA
Oct 24, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
It's awfully hard to say without seeing it up close, isn't it?. I like aretes almost as much as I like cracks, though unfortunately the former doesn't usually protect with natural gear as well as the latter. It certainly looks like a great line up a stellar arete. If the climbing is natural and there's some obvious features out there then it could very well be a modern classic worth sinking 30 bolts for.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Oct 24, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
"It's like deja vu all over again!" Yogi Berra
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
Byran, a modern classic that goes at 5.13b clip ups isn't going to be climbed by anything but a very small handful of people. Scott Cosgrove has 5.13 face routes in J-Tree that haven't seen repeats. And they're not 4 pitches of climbing. Just one pitch and they still don't get done.

A modern classic is something that people will actually get on and climb. If this was in the 11's or low 12's I think it could have a chance. But not at 13b.

A nice feather in the cap for the FA'ists, but I bet this thing sees less than 5 repeats in the next 5-10 years at best. But the 30 bolts will always be there.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 24, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
Hard sayin, not knowin.

Hi Beth! :-)
Johnny K.

climber
Oct 24, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
Crux pitch is 35 meters with 16 bolts,a bolt placed roughly every 7 feet...
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Oct 24, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
Having climbed this proud tower, I have to say...
Seems not the place for so much hardware, imo.
Yet, surely the line will speak for itself.
Some lines just say do it, eh.
johnkelley

climber
Anchorage Alaska
Oct 24, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
A rap bolted line on Castleton Tower is sad. What happened to respecting the local ethics? A sport climb on a tower with a long history of traditional climbing sucks.

Put up, down I should say, by the same guy who did that pathetic thing Yodle This in the Tetons. The only top down line in the entire range. Why do we need so many bolts these days? The current trend of bolting everything is gonna come back to bite us one day.

Guess it's another disgrace he's bolted but can't climb.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
Johnny K, EXACTLY! A sport pitch on Castelton no matter how hard it is just seems wrong.

ps - Hi Larry! So the sushi you and Jay had was good?
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Oct 24, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
Looks freaking awesome actually, I'll bet it gets done a lot. You old farts underestimate how many people climb 13b.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Karo....5.13b desert sandstone tower climbing that it took this guy a couple of years and several partners to establish?

Don't think so.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:00am PT
Yes Beth. Those guys make a mean roll.
Have you not been there?
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Nope Larry. I'm vegetarian and veggie sushi is basically avacado and fake crab wrapped in rice. Not my thing.

But good to know...Steve loves sushi. Good to know they can kill it rolling in Moab.
Rudbud

Gym climber
CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Nice Job Chris and Sam! To bad its not 5.10 then every body would be stocked.
Let the hate commence.
andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:04am PT
I think if anyone has earned the right to put in bolts on a tower, it is Sam Lightner - aside from the numerous bold and high quality new lines he has put in, I appreciate the huge amount of work he has done replacing crap gear with the ASCA and volunteering so much time and effort to the Friends of Indian Creek. Kalous isn't exactly a slouch either.

Looking down on a 4 pitch 5.13 free route that doesn't sound like a sport climb on a tower in a desert filled with bolt ladders also seems misguided. It isn't exactly like 5.13 routes don't get traffic in the desert - 5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic, as do lines in Mill Creek, on the Priest, and elsewhere in the desert.

Good job Sam and Chris.
jsj

climber
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:11am PT
According to reports the climb requires at least a single set of cams from fingers all the way up to a #5. Also, it has "obligatory 5.12" - in other words, you can't A-O it. And yet the easiest pitch on it is still... 5.12.

Sounds pretty tRAD to me.
The New Age Blitzo

Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:12am PT
Hi Beth. Hi Larry!
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 12:16am PT
"I think if anyone has earned the right to put in bolts on a tower"

Really?? So someone can be more worthy of adding bolts to a tower than someone who hasn't done ASCA work?

"5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic"

Yeah, cause they're CRACKS. You can't send them without placing gear. Not bolted face. Even then the list of people who send those isn't that big. Belly Full of Bad Berries only gets sent by the top of the tier climbers.

"doesn't sound like a sport climb"

Yeah, 16 bolts on a pitch spaced 7 feet apart doesn't sound sport at all.

"in a desert filled with bolt ladders"

This is Castleton Tower, not some random piece of sandstone. See Donini's take upthread. He knows more about it than all of us.

On a happier note....

Hey Billy!! We'll be coming to visit you soon. Miss you. Glad you're doing well.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:16am PT
Hi Blitzo!!
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:17am PT
Top down = Zero accomplishment

Thats true anywhere and everywhere. Just another weenie with a power drill adding to his "resume". Whoop de do.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:22am PT
I have a few thoughts on this, and don't worry - if we don't agree on these thoughts, we can still be friends :D



First off - It is difficult to give an opinion because I haven't climbed the route. Hell, I haven't even walked up to the base of it and looked at it. Rather than speculate on a route that may or may not be a high quality classic, I'll stick to stuff I like - things that are actually debatable at this point.


The idea that cliffs are "trad" or "sport" to me is like saying that rocks are "trad" or "sport." If a route doesn't have stances to be drilled ground-up, and frail (and sparse) flakes make hooking stances a death affair, the argument seems to be to let fallow.


I see the idea, that if it can't be done in a particular style, that it stay unclimbed. This dogma reeks of religion - arrogant conservatism in face of progress. There are no great western deserts desecrated by bolts, just like the 'gay agenda' isn't stealing your children from heterosexuality.

Beth is right, there AREN'T a lot of people that can climb 5.13. Granted, there are kids at my gym in high school that can absolutely dog their way up (if not redpoint the route in a few attempts), but to me that isn't the point.

Let time decide what routes are classic, let our friends who share our ropes enjoy using the mountain resources so long as they abide by the rules and are being gracious to others, and give the f*#king respect you ask for in ALL walks of life. This route probably means SO MUCH to those guys who put it up and worked their asses off, let some bolts sit out of the way of a route you may (OR MAY NOT) do because that experience enriched them and enriched others. This isn't a bolt ladder, there are routes in HIDDEN VALLEY CAMPGROUND with bolts spaced similar distances.




Joshua Tree, Idyllwild, Yosemite, the most hard-core traditional areas have cutting edge bolted rights right in view of well established trade lines. Give it up with the evangelical climbing, go get a beer, get laid and have a good time. We're all dying soon, is this worth giving a sh#t about?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:24am PT
Yeah, 16 bolts on a pitch spaced 7 feet apart don't sound sport at all.

I know of a lot of 'trad' climbers that hang their way up cracks with gear every 4 feet :)
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 12:27am PT
On 5.13's Greg?

If bolted 5.13 was so pedestrian, why haven't Cozzie's bolted 5.13 face routes (bolted, not sport) in J-Treee have not seen repeats in the years since he put them up?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:35am PT
On 5.7's. Sh#t, I've done it. I feel safer on straight-in splitters that protect well than routes with bolts every seven feet.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:38am PT
Everyone climbs the bolt ladders on The Nose and numerous other chiseled out big walls (thank you dudes from the past!), but as soon as there is a bolted free climb in place people start crying. Even on free climbs, back in the day if there was a head wall they couldn't free- here comes the bolt ladder!

Beth, would love to see you tell them to chop those 111 bolts from Middle Cathedral: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1962356/Father-Time-New-VI-Free-Route-on-Middle-Cathedral
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:42am PT
If bolted 5.13 was so pedestrian, why haven't Cozzie's bolted 5.13 face routes (bolted, not sport) in J-Treee have not seen repeats in the years since he put them up?


This is a great question, because I agree - I've certainly seen a handful of 5.13's done first person, at Red Rocks.

In fact, today I worked with a guy who goes to college full time and is a computer engineering major, engaged, and likes to play video games who has climbed 5.13 (and only really boulders these days, but is much much stronger...)

Coz's routes are hard as F*#K. I don't think that means that all 5.13's are as hard....
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:43am PT
I think its just rock climbing : /
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:45am PT
Just realized it was Chris Kalous that bolted it... I recommend hearing his podcast before any personal attacks on the dude.


edit - I think I might be the only one that posts on Supertopo while simultaneously watching a drag queen reality show.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 12:56am PT
Here's the beta for the route. It's not mixed in a true sense. You can't get up it if you can't get past the bolted pitches.

http://static-dev-climbing.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Unknown3.jpeg

Regardless, kudos for a bold ascent. I just don't think bolting Castleton Tower was the right place to do this.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:57am PT
I still need to head out there :( typically lazy california kid, never wanting to get sand-bagged in the real world hehehe...
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:02am PT
What's stopping you Greg? It's there.

HIT IT!! :) You'll love it.

Moab rules. Just got back from 8 days there...best 8 days of my year thus far. Even better than all my 3 trips to Tuolumne this summer. It's heaven. Desert sandstone is the best.
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:03am PT
Sounds really cool to me, a hard route up a big tower. I say kudos to those guys.

I don't think this is breaking news either, but there are bolts all over castleton. There's like a 2 bolt variation start to Kor Ingals. Jay Smith has some hard looking arete up there somewhere I think.

JTree 5.13 doesn't get repeated much because its unfashionable. People capable of the grade would rather climb something steep and fun than thin and crispy.

I'll get on the bandwagon here and say HEY! to larry, blitzo and beth.
orangesporanges

climber
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:04am PT
On an established clean tower
Climb it clean
Or take yer falls like a man
And hit the dirt
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:05am PT
And I'll say HI Caughtinside!!!

Saw Larry last week at the Love Muffin in Moab. Seeing Billy soon in JT. The circle of friends will be complete.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:05am PT
Alluring thing about Moab is the mountain biking rest days :)))
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:06am PT
How about all those horizontal bolt lines ending at 100'-115' feet located at Indian Creek? Cumulatively, there are many serialized "lines" (two points makes a line, right?) of bolts in that all trad, no bolt craggin' country.

But, you know, choose your argument of convenience.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:07am PT
This isn't about the Creek. It's about Castleton Tower. Comparing apples and oranges.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:15am PT
Hi Dave!

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:23am PT
bolted the line

does this mean that it did go in top down?

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:24am PT
This isn't about the Creek. It's about Castleton Tower. Comparing apples and oranges

Did you see any bolts on Kor Ingalls last time you climbed that? (I did!)
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:27am PT
Since I've only been in the Castleton Tower area once, I can't comment on whether or not a bolt line is a desecration. But to say that because it's 5.13, it won't see very many repeats is just plain silly.

Time marches on. Yesterday's bizarrely difficult, never-to-be-repeated test pieces are today's tourist routes. Remember the origins of the Yosemite decimal system? 5.8 was the hardest grade imaginable. Only a couple of freakishly gifted and fearless men could climb at that grade. So leaving a 5.9 grade open would easily accommodate future advances, with 5.10 available for something a hundred years in the future.

And now? Where are we? 5.15c? Or is it just 5.15b?

So sure, if you think Castleton should not have bolted routes, I can't argue. Maybe you're right. But half the 13-year-olds at your gym probably hike 5.13, so that argument is a non-starter.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:29am PT
> just next to the classic North Chimney.

Judging from the photo, I don't think it is actually visible from North Chimney. It looks to be 2 aretes to the left.


I haven't actually done North Chimney; I assume one is buried in the chimney and can only see the arete on the immediate left.

Actually the arete is visible while climbing the first pitch, although the bolts might not be if it climbs on the left side of the arete.
I suspect most people will be busy looking at the jams or at the Priest?
And apparently after the initial moves on p2, one is in the chimney and not seeing the arete anymore.

Your impact argument about a low traffic route is reasonably good,
but it might assume that all routes are equally enjoyable.
What if the route is 10x as enjoyable, but only has 1/10 the traffic of a comparison route?
Then the 2 factors net out....
I suppose here we might think it's more like 5x and 1/50 .
But we still have no real basis for trading off bolt visibility against enjoyment of a route.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:29am PT
Ummm Vitaliy, Kor-Ingalls went up in 1961. They didn't have a lot of options to get up it back then.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:35am PT
Should of had Fluoride tell em to get down if they couldn't do it without a bolt! ; )

My point: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5oeilDWhs1qit4p6o1_400.gif
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:37am PT
Why did they put in a bolt ladder on East buttress of Middle Cathedral back in the day instead of just rapelling off and waiting for a better climber to come along and run it out/take another variation? All these ethics are twisted.

Congrats to the people on their first ascents. Although rap bolting a line is quite a different experience than going from the ground up.....
johnkelley

climber
Anchorage Alaska
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:38am PT
Did you see any bolts on Kor Ingalls last time you climbed that? (I did!)

Kor Ingalls was done ground up. Just like every other route there. It also doesn't have a full pitch with bolts seven feet apart. The grade makes no difference. Easy or hard it makes no difference.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:42am PT
I just looked over the FA more. Yeah, doing First Ascents on rap, is not so adventurous...don't even get the point of it actually. Just set up a top rope, rehearse the moves, and put in enough bolts. Hmmmm I guess you have a point Fluoride. Thought it was done ground up.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 01:44am PT
Thanks Vitaliy.

I only wanted to point that out.

This is nothing like Layton, Jay, or any of the others who put up hard routes on the tower did.

It's obviously a great new hard route. But not like the ones that went up the tower in the past.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 02:13am PT
Nope J. I don't want to give away their effort but I question their means of doing it in a place that doesn't seem to need it.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:13am PT
This isn't about the Creek. It's about Castleton Tower. Comparing apples and oranges.


Utah desert wingate sandstone crag vs. Utah desert wingate sandstone crag. My bad for generalizing so erroneously.

The funny thing is you can compare apples and oranges on a lot of points. They are a lot more similar than, say, apples and beef.

I dunno, some line that doesn't effect you is some line that doesn't effect you. It's sort of like a hiker on the Mist Trail who is mad when she looks up and sees climbers unfairly hiking up Snake Dike.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 02:18am PT
 <br/>
Castleton Tower

Castleton Tower
Credit: Fluoride

Done Jebus. Here she is a week ago Saturday.

My problem is the huge number of bolts put up on a tower that doesn't need it.

PS, I've done Snake Dike via the Mist Trail.

PPS, why did you use this all in female context?
"hiker on the Mist Trail who is mad when she looks up and sees climbers unfairly hiking up Snake Dike."

I'm the only female in this thread and wish there were more.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:22am PT
> doing it in a place that doesn't seem to need it.

I'm somewhat sympathetic, but actually climbing is not really "needed" anywhere.

I don't like looking at certain bolted climbs, like the bolts right of The Line at Lover's Leap.
And I try to minimize the impact of my new routes to some extent
(partly by pacing it - trying not to do a large number of routes in a small period of time).
But the choices ultimately involve value judgements about visual impact vs. quality/fun of the climbing.

Probably the closest comparison to this route is Excommunication on The Priest, although it also involved some glueing.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/excommunication/105718708

Why mostly guys discussing this?
Maybe because most new routes are done by guys and they like the freedom to choose methods?
As well as the freedom to judge other new routes
 some they might wish they had done
 others they would never choose to do
 others indifferent or not accessible to them ....
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:45am PT
Done because of me, Fluoride?

Maybe bolts are so magnified in our minds because, as climbers, we often see them up close.

Maybe I'm pissing on your sanctuary unduly, and it really is a travesty.

Hell, I don't know. Sorry if I seem callous, I'm sure I'll get my samesuch comeuppance in some short, jabbing punch to my emotional solar plexus one of these days, and probably not too long coming.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:09am PT
The on topic thread. A rare bird indeed. I will stand quietly now, spotting scope in hand.

G'night!
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 03:11am PT
Night Jebus. Heading to bed too. Sweet dreams.
ß Î Ř T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:29am PT
Sounds like GU/ SFHD. Bad choice of proximity to historical sacred ground.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:45am PT

Bolts on existing south face Castleton Tower routes
For caption see: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/106403495
(An older Ken Trout topo shows more like 14 bolts on the bolt ladder pitch of Midnight Cowboy).

p4 of Sacred Ground is a 5.12b bolted calcite face, next to the regular North Face, and you rap right down it on the way off Castleton.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/sacred-ground/105717517

I'm just trying to establish a comparison to existing bolts; others have mentioned them also.

In my view, this new bolted arete route is not much different from existing stuff.

> Wish more females got into this debate but none so far.

Why does this matter?
Apparently I am a male; does this make my viewpoint less interesting?
I could guess: do you expect other females would have good constructive arguments supporting your position?
I've seen plenty of guys on both sides of bolting arguments and this one does not seem much different.
enjoimx

Trad climber
Yosemite, ca
Oct 25, 2012 - 05:05am PT
Listen to Donini. If he doesn't approve, it was probably a bad idea.

I'd rather do the North Face than this seemingly contrived clip up.
Powder

Trad climber
SF Bay Area
Oct 25, 2012 - 06:44am PT
I don't necessarily see it as a debate - it's a controversy that never ends. People simply are going to have different opinions.




My thoughts on this particular bolted line?

On an iconic tower where there have already been gear routes established, including a classic, why?!

Leave it be.

There are more than one rock and more than one tower - many untouched, exhibiting plenty of potentials for new routes, including hard challenging ones.




Wait a minute... It was not even ground-up.

To bolt, or not to bolt, that has always been, always is, and always will be the question. Since it's not what was asked here, I'm not going to spend time on it.

Whether geared, bolted, or mixed routes, it's a "climb" only when done ground-up.

If bolting, bolt at where gear is not possible; when establishing a bolted route, placing all bolts on lead.


The party worked hard on their project, indeed. Seeing a rap bolted line on such beautiful classic, I cannot help but feeling a bit sad.

A "mega classic"? Not quite; not in my book (if done ground-up, however, it'd be a somewhat different story.)


But hey what can I do? Find a rock, get on the wall, climb my climb. :]


-------------------

Edited 11/01/2012

My original post is in response to OP's question asking for thoughts regarding this particular line in a particular area.

...didn't mean to any disrespect in the original response. So therefore, later I decided that it's better to add more to it, though this addition might or might not be relevant to the topic.





To me, there is sport climbing, and then there is climbing.

Climbing is like evolution; it evolves.


Changes are inevitable.
Sport climbing seems to be the trend the new generation is bringing up.

The kind of the stuff this generation can do is pretty amazing. They train hard and work hard on their projects towards their goals. Their strength and devotion is undoubtfully extraordinary.

As the current trend evolves around speed and numbers, I feel like I'm almost lost in the transition, grabbing the root of more traditional climbing, in this fast paced new wave.

It is what it is. I don't have to be like others. Just do my own thing and climb my climbs.

It's what I do better.

I'm most comfortable by myself or being in a small group of a few companies. I perform better and feel more like in my elements when there aren't crowds waiting and watching. Solitude or the intimacy of being in a small setting is what I long for and what I prefer. A remote, alpine environment can easily provide that. Sport climbing and bouldering are exactly opposite, or they seem to be. Working on a route, surrounded by a bunch of spectators does not click with my personality.

I'm not athlete and I don't like to compete; I just want to get out, simply being there - in the mountains or in the wilderness, and enjoy it.

I like the nature lines, like the freedom, like the fact that I get to decide where I'd want to place pros or if I need to place any, not restricted and having to do the same certain moves like many others do in order to clip into that particular bolt. Most of all, I like the view seen along the way and atop of the climb!!

I like the adventurous aspect of climbing. One not only climbs, but route finding, time management, ability to read the weather and deal with various situations, skills in response to emergencies, the unknowns, the uncertainties, and did I mention the freedom... are all parts of the game. It's the whole package. It's what makes climbing fun and addictive, at least to me.


Gear routes is where my heart is. However, I have found it a good option to be able to do some bolted routes or sport climbs sometimes.


Some areas are trad paradise; some were developed as sport crags.
Bottom line: respect the local culture and if we don't like it, we don't have to climb it.



Somebody once said something, which I'm now rephrasing it in my own words:
Find the style that suits us the best.

Everyone is different; we all are seeking for different things, motivated by different means in life.

If diversity is what we look for, but we want the rest of the world to have the same voice as we do, aren't we contradicting ourselves?


Besides, if everyone holds the same opinion, the world would be such a boring place...

(And just because some of us have strong opinions and louder voices, doesn't mean we are all haters.)


There is no law of absolutely right or absolutely wrong in the world of climbing. Whether it's sport climbing or climbing, they are merely two sport/activity different by nature, even though they originated from the same thing.

We choose our own styles, follow our own stands, have our own beliefs, and try to get along. We don't have to agree but at least respect each others.

It's all about balance.

If every single individual is interested in following the natural lines, there are going to be traffics on many Alpine climbs, if not most. I certainly do not wish to see that.

If we all pursuit sport climbing, parks, forests, and wilderness will soon become gyms, just outdoors. That cannot be a good thing.



So let's just do our own things, climb our climbs, and let the nature take its course. Maybe sport climbing is going to dominate this new era. Who knows? Some years later, trad climbing might come back as retro.. As long as the "torch" is being carried on, it won't be completely lost in the future, or in history. And if not... whatever. All I know is, I will be climbing as long as I can and as much as I like, however/whatever it might become.


Back to the topic,

In the end, it doesn't matter what I think (or what many think), it is up to the local community to decide what is "accepted" and what is not. If the locals don't have anything to say, what place me as an "outsider" have to say what "should" and "is not supposed to" be done. Local culture & climbing ethics change and evolve just like everything else. Over time they might adapt, or not. Time will tell. Whatever and however it will become, it is what it is.


As for whether it's a classic or not, time will show and people will decide. Truth is, who cares what others think? If one consider a line is superb, then it is, to that individual, for climbing is after all, personal.

andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 08:07am PT
/// "I think if anyone has earned the right to put in bolts on a tower"

// Really?? So someone can be more worthy of adding bolts to a tower than
// someone who hasn't done ASCA work?

Nice selective editing of my words. A Moab local like Sam who has put up dozens of new routes on towers, many of them previously unclimbed, dozens of new cragging lines, lots of repeats of bold towers routes that get very few ascents, and volunteers lots of time for the ASCA, the FOIC, lead efforts to keep Arches open after the Delicate Arch debacle, etc. really deserves the benefit of the doubt. He isn't some random bro brah rolling in from Boulder.

/// "5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic"

// Yeah, cause they're CRACKS. You can't send them without placing gear.
// Not bolted face. Even then the list of people who send those isn't that
// big. Belly Full of Bad Berries only gets sent by the top of the tier
// climbers.

Another nice selective edit. Mill Creek certainly isn't crack climbing, but 5.13 there gets regular traffic. The new crags with 5.13 sport climbs above Potash get lots of traffic. Hell, at Maple the 5.12 and 5.13s get more traffic than the 5.10s. I don't climb at Josh enough to know why hard routes there don't get traffic, but they certainly do in Utah.

/// "doesn't sound like a sport climb"

// Yeah, 16 bolts on a pitch spaced 7 feet apart don't sound sport at all.

A 4 pitch route with lots of 5.12 crack climbing on it isn't a sport route.

/// "in a desert filled with bolt ladders"

// This is Castleton Tower, not some random piece of sandstone. See
// Donini's take upthread. He knows more about it than all of us.

As has been pointed out, Castleton Tower has had bolt ladders on it for years. The Priest, just a couple of towers over, has a bolted 5.13 on it that sees traffic and people rave about. Bolts aren't bad - unnecessary bolts are bad. High end free climbing on towers is amazing. Castle Valley is fairly unique that way because of the calcite - Wingate face climbing is usually pretty rare. And I can respect Donini's opinion without agreeing with him.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 08:29am PT
Andy, I didn't selectively edit, I took your own words verbatim. I'll do it again now.

"A 4 pitch route with lots of 5.12 crack climbing on it isn't a sport route."

16 bolts in a pitch spaced 7 feet apart with no gear? Really? What else would that pitch be called? Where's the "lots of crack climbing" on that?

And Mill Creek is all sport climbing. OF COURSE it's going to be all bolts. That's the nature of the rock up there. Completely different from the desert sandstone. You can't be serious in comparing that area to Castleton Tower.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 25, 2012 - 08:45am PT
Hi Blitzo!

I was wondering about that Jay Smith route too, Caught. I looked at it once when I rapped the North face. It looked very thin and desperate.

Edit thanks for the link, Clint.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 09:17am PT
Jay!!! Did it rain overnight? Still cold? We miss you already.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 25, 2012 - 09:52am PT
Frost on the pumpkin, and everything else!
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 09:59am PT
Oh my....

Head to the Love Muffin and warm up!

And pet Micah and Benjamin for me if they cross your paths.

(those are local dogs, not people FYI).
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 25, 2012 - 10:10am PT
Mica is on a roadtrip, sportclimbing with Guy. She said something about needing to drag him out of the shop....
Gilwad

climber
Frozen In Somewhere
Oct 25, 2012 - 10:56am PT
I've climbed lots of 5.10 and 5.11 versions of this route already, nothing new here to me. Cracks connected with some face climbing; you'd have to have not climbed much in Utah if you haven't done at least a few routes like that, especially on towers. This one looks super, super good; it inspires me to train up for it, stoke!

5.13b, while a grade I don't climb often these days, is like 5.12b just 15 years ago. Lots and lots of people climb that hard, just not so many that hang out on here (some do for sure, but let's face it, Supertopo is not generally home of the currently super fit). If this route were 5.11b would anyone have an issue with it? Or is it that, "it's too hard for me so it's a desecration?" idea? This route is simply doing what many others have done but at a somewhat higher modern grade, and it will get increasing traffic with time. I'm totally missing why it's causing a stir on here, it's just not a "new" thing in the desert.

Nice work Chris and Sam. Get your asses back up to Canada and finish some more Ghost routes now please.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2012 - 11:07am PT
But Gil, it's not cracks connected with face. It's heavily bolted with very few sections of gear.

"Lots and lots of people climb that hard"

I hope so and that they make lots of ascents up this route since it's there and established now. I just don't see sport climbers at that level heading to Castle Valley to send this thing. I hope I'm wrong.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 25, 2012 - 11:41am PT
let's face it, Supertopo is not generally home of the currently super fit).



Hey...wait a min....oh....ok...bye.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 11:43am PT
As has been pointed out, Castleton Tower has had bolt ladders on it for years.

I think the difference OP wants to bring up is the style of the ascent. Ground up, connecting cracks with a bolt ladder vs rap from top/work the route on TR and put as many bolts as you feel needed from the top. I mean sh#t, I am 100% certain I can put up a route in Lovers Leap if I apply the same style. But the question is why?

He isn't some random bro brah rolling in from Boulder.

Certainly people who put this route up are AMAZING climbers if they can climb 5.13 on lead. But why is a local guy held to a lower standard than a random dude from Boulder? Local climbers should lead by example.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 11:46am PT
I think the difference OP wants to bring up is the style of the ascent. Ground up, connecting cracks with a bolt ladder vs rap from top/work the route on TR and put as many bolts as you feel needed from the top.


Yeah, you really don't know if it "goes" when you put up a bolt ladder from the ground up.... It's cool if you aim for some cracks though (i.e., save money on more bolts). What a throw back in ethical judgment, when you think about it. Oh, wait, we're not supposed to.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Yeah, you don't if it "goes" when you put up a bolt ladder from the ground up.... It's cool if you aim for some cracks though (i.e., save money on more bolts). What a hold back in ethical judgment.

Personally, I do not think bolt ladders are appropriate. It kinds of defeats the impossible...but at least it is going from the bottom to the top.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 11:52am PT
Ethics are twisted.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 11:53am PT
Personally, I do not think bolt ladders are appropriate. It kinds of defeats the impossible...but at least it is going from the bottom to the top.

If you like that, you'll just love ladders!

I'd argue that making a quality route using some forethought and well-placed bolts is just as good or better style than the mechanical exercise of placing and ascending up bolts.

Always placing FA glory and prerogative over quality routes goes overboard. But I'm one of those silly people who believes there is room for both ethics.

Jimmy Russells

climber
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
Manufactroversy (măn’yə-făk’-trə-vűr’sē)
N., pl. -sies.

1. A manufactured controversy that is motivated by profit or extreme ideology to intentionally create public confusion about an issue that is not in dispute.
dave

climber
Earth
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
or you could get busted trying to drill a bolt ladder next to coarse and buggy, huh?

5.13 isn't that hard these days for lots of people
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
I think this emphasis on ground up or not distorts things a bit.

I'm not sure how many of you have tried putting in bolts on lead, by hand or with a power tool.

If the route was going in anyway, I'm glad it was done on rap. It is just too easy to make poor decisions obout bolt placement on lead. Often you can't find a hook placement, and have to drill from a marginal stance. This can result in poor bolt placement as well as shoddy unsafe bolts. It is especially difficult to bolt on lead in sandstone, stances and hook placements are too rare.

Considering this, it seems that this route was done in an ethically more conservative way than some of the older routes that relied on bolt ladders.

The real question is weather routes with protection bolts should even be established in these areas.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
Bunch of Californians arguing against locals about desert ethics based on their trips to IC and the North Chimney. STFU.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
pointless arguments I guess...
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:18pm PT


Bolt the fuk out of the thing...

;-)

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
I get the feeling that its proximity to the Kor Ingals route somehow has something to do with it. As though that is hallowed ground or something.

I'm sure it is for some religious nuts and it all started with that questionable holy bible 50 Classics. When I climbed it, its was easily the worst quality route i've ever done down there. Greasy calcite worse than the worst polished limestone, a bunch of groveling past numerous X marked stacked blocks chinked together with gravel and hordes of pilgrims circling the thing like that freaky obelisk in Mecca. One good twenty foot pitch at the top if I recall right.

If it was a 5.9 bolted arete would that make it more palatable somehow? If it means you could avoid the Kor Ingals I'd have to say yes!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
16 bolts in a pitch spaced 7 feet apart

If this is accurate, it has no place on a landmark like Castleton tower, and is not an advance in climbing, but something more like vandalism. It's not a sport climbing tower, although there are doubtless many other faces that could be bolted. Why not drive a few hours north where there are huge canyon areas that could be developed where there are no local rules or history? Just bring your air compressor and you're good to go.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Bunch of Californians arguing against locals about desert ethics based on their trips to IC and the North Chimney. STFU.

Roxjox is that, that, you...?

Oh, nevermind, some other misanthrope. Not that I disagree ;).
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Don Paul, you don't get to decide that Castleton is not a sport climbing tower, even if you say it all authoritarian like. Don't like it? Don't climb it. Looks like an awesome route up an awesome arete, nice job Kalous and Lightner.
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:42pm PT

"Don't like it? Don't climb it."...

I TOTALLY agree!!!...




EDITED:

What I find funny, is that MOST of the people here will NEVER (Myself included) even be climbing at that level...

What the FUK does it REALLY matter to them (Us???)...




michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Jesus christ. Another bolt-nazi complaining there are bolts on something harder than 5.7r.



"5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic"

Yeah, cause they're CRACKS. You can't send them without placing gear. Not bolted face. Even then the list of people who send those isn't that big. Belly Full of Bad Berries only gets sent by the top of the tier climbers.


I've seen more 5.14 bolted routes get traffic than 5.13 crack routes. What the hell are you on about "cause they're CRACKS."? Indian Creek is known to have the best splitters around. On Sandstone at that.

You're comparing a 5.13+ overhanging offwidth to general 5.13 traffic? You must be on something.





This seems like your (Flouride) list of skills in climbing levels:


5.5-5.6 - noobs
5.7 - weekend warriors
5.8-5.9 - skilled climbers
5.10 - hardmen
5.11 - Donini
5.12 - ???wtf?
5.13 - Top tier climbers.
5.14 - ??
5.15 - five what?
this just in

climber
north fork
Oct 25, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
Bolt is not a four letter word. Ah F*#k, I just counted it again and it is. F*#k.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
The route sounds great, congrats to the fa team! The nearby Nuns have a bolted 5.11 face climb, Holier than Thou, that I climbed long ago, on calcite. That rippled calcite can provide amazing face holds in outrageous situations. If this route is of the same quality, then it will be outstanding!

Just had breakfast with one of the original fa team, Layton. I told him about this route, he was mostly just amazed at the level of difficulty that 5.13 meant. Far beyond anything he could do, and a whole different game to what he played.

Good discussion here. have not seen the climb A few thoughts:

The arete that gets climbed seems independent enough from North Chimney that it does not detract from the experience of climbing the N Chimney. That's a plus. Actually pretty essential. Excommunication is far more independent, for sure. Routes are a bit crowded on Castleton. Partly the nature of the more cracked and featured terrain.

Long ago, Ed Webster placed a long bolt ladder nearby up the Arrowhead (12-14 bolts?) so that his route Midnight Cowboy or Stardust Cowboy or whatever it was called could keep going upward to an independent finish. With hindsight, he became a bit sheepish about adding so many bolts that really served no use to anyone nor provided any climbing. But they are still there. No one complains.

I always find kind of ugly and sad the bolts under the roof left of Kor Ingalls (placed by Dan Osman, I recall?). An abandoned project, but not really any kind of line in the first place. The line did not work out but were left. An eyesore, for sure. Says something about how rapping and placing bolts can produce a better result than placing them ground-up, at least sometimes.

A rap bolted line on Castleton Tower is sad. What happened to respecting the local ethics?

Well, that's a good question. I think Jay Smith's Sacred Ground was the first new route established on Castleton Tower by a "local." This is the second route done by a local. What does that tell us?

These days there is a flourishing local community in Moab and Castle Valley. Mostly the locals are trying to develop new routes that provide a variety of climbing experiences and levels. Trying to drag the desert into the 21st century. There is a balance to be found, for sure. In the past, most of us visitors have tried to hew carefully to what we have seen as a high ethical standard. But not always.... The locals are seeking, and I think finding, a nice balance for the crags and towers around Moab. Castleton Tower has perhaps the best rock for many miles, so if a bolted 5.13 face route will be found anywhere, then Castleton Tower is the place to find it.

Having said that, criticism is a great thing. Just because Sam LIghtner is a local and has been climbing for decades does mean give him or anyone else any entitlement. These towers are treasures, world-reknowned. A shared resource. Carping keeps a climber honest.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
Nicely said ^^^

Neat looking line. Topo on FB and the comments are positive (as FB is want to be, I suppose).

Sport pitch on a fairly "trad" style line it seems. 5.12 "obl"...ha ha. I like's me some obl ratings, but, way way way above my pay grade.

Kudos to the lads. Big effort. It'll see traffic. Kids are crankin' these days. Something has to get them out of Millcreek every once in awhile..ha ha.

Warm up on this?:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/excommunication/105718708

Cheers!
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
Not commenting on whether it belongs or not. I don't have enough info to opine.

But the assertion that 5.13 sport climbs in popular places are rarely climbed seems off. If anything, it seems likely to be clogged with people dogging it, which seems to be the preferred mode of ascent at the grade. Did I skim too quickly about the nature of its protection?
cowpoke

climber
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
so glad I tuned in to read crunch's eloquent post.

steve shea

climber
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
Get Hayden Kennedy, he'll show'em what for.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
I don't recall a similar bunch of whining when Greg Child bolted the arete "Excommunication" on the Priest.

Almost an exact comparison...established tower, Castle Valley, primarily bolted but with some gear mixed in, and a 13 crux pitch.


I'd also love to hear of all these unrepeated Cosgrove 5.13 Josh routes Beth keeps talking about. I know of exactly ONE unrepeated Coz route, G-String (which is an extreme reach problem, a quintessential tall man route, so no big surprise that it's the one that hasn't been repeated). So please elighten me as to what the other unrepeated ones are.

I say good for them, hard free climbing on an iconic tower, in spectacular position. Nice one boys. And 13b isn't exactly cutting edge, it's kind of the bottom entry grade for actual "hard" climbing...8a, you know. And besides, Kalous sent it, so how hard can it be really?
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Just what I was gonna say Will.

J
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Get Hayden Kennedy, he'll show'em what for.

Kinda funny...'cause his dad commented on Facebook about it...!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
What defines classic?


Because the rock formation has been there for a really long time?


Or because there was a route established on it before you were born?
crunch

Social climber
CO
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
And besides, Kalous sent it, so how hard can it be really?

OUCH!

Grippa

Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
this thread is just a bunch of california sprayhards talking to each other about a route they'll never try or even see most likley. go climbing for crying out loud!
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 25, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
Crunch..... well said.

+1

And to Sam and Chris .... good job, way to go.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
I'm just confused by this double standard you BITD guys have.

------------------Against-----------


Hard face climbs being bolted because the traffic on that route will be low. - Because it will damage the rock

Bolts being every 7 feet. - Because it will damage the rock

--------------------Pro--------------


Hammering cracks to fit your gear. - Because it was classic

Bolt Ladders. - Because it was classic

Putting a bolt every 50 feet on "moderate" terrain. - Because it was classic

-----------------Conclusion-----------


Why do you guys really care? YOU'LL NEVER SEE THOSE BOLTS. You wouldn't DARE try to climb it.

It's okay, isn't looked down on, and you guys stroke the shaft to the cusp of people who hammered the sh*t out of cracks because it was "BITD."

Bolt ladders on faces that are now free climbable, but weren't back then, are fine because it was "BITD", therefore not looked down on, and they're still acceptable on "It's impossible to free climb terrain".

You're getting pissed at bolts being every 7 feet on a 5.13b, harder than you could possibly free climb, yet putting a bolt every 40-50 feet on Tuolumne's fine domes is "totally rad" because it's an unsafe ego trip to minimalize the damage to the rock, referring to bolt ladders... previously...


Your guys's sh*tty double standard may look cool in your eyes, but it looks f*cking ignorant and moronical in mostly everyone elses'.

locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:20pm PT


^^^

+1
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
Good point Michael. This is why I am confused (bolt ladders/smashing tiny cracks with pins BITD vs rap bolting a super hard face route now. Both do not sound like perfect styles to me. But no reason to say someone is clearly WRONG. Don't like it- don't climb it). I guess there always will be different points of view, and you can't please everyone.

Lesson of the day: have fun with style that suits YOU, be honest about it. Everything else is a pointless argument.
this just in

climber
north fork
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
Don't like it don't climb it. Or at least climb it before you complain about it. No matter what, when you put up a route, someone will not like how you did it. People who are so worried about style miss out on a lot of great climbing. Climb on.
all in jim

climber
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
"Lesson of the day: have fun with style that suits YOU, be honest about it. Everything else is a pointless argument."

+1 ^^^

"Or at least climb it before you complain about it."

+1 ^^^

"Shut up and Climb"

+1 ^^^
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
^^^

+1




EDITED:

Self pat on the back post:

I am 57 and I'll be fuking damned if I am going to allow myself to become one of the STODGEY, old acting fuks that think that everything "Back in the day", is the ONLY way it should be done...

BULL FUKING SH!T!!!...


Change with the times or get fuking LEFT behind...

Me???...

Bolts, gear, who gives a fuking rats ass, so long as I am CLIMBING!!!...

;-)
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
Yeah, Crunch came out with the well-measured post of the thread. Kudos.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Oct 25, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
I don't care if they climbed it by rappelling upside down. Clearly, such an icon needs to be on the Grid, if our sport is to advance.

Decaria established a similar arete on Sister Superior, just downrange, about 12 years ago. The coming generation should be able to slack line between the two routes any day now.

A consensus against bolt ladders on Towers was the justification for chopping Beckey's A0 FA on Zeus, by some Athena Nike. Lest we forget, we've always the spalled scars as a mute testimonial.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
putting a bolt every 40-50 feet on Tuolumne's fine domes is "totally rad" because it's an unsafe ego trip to minimalize the damage to the rock

Take it back to the hive.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
A consensus against bolt ladders on Towers was the justification for chopping Beckey's A0 FA on Zeus, by some Athena Nike. Lest we forget, we've always the spalled scars as a mute testimonial.

Jeezuz are you serious? If you're going to chop, which is certainly justified at times, do it right! Cut, punch and fill with an appropriate filler.
You do it right and you'd never know they were ever there.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
So whats the real deal? We all get to bag on our betters now? What makes Lightner and Cris better climbers than 99% of these posters are that they just STFU and went climbing. Castleton is a great location, but I don't see anyone who can get up the thing bagging on it or these guys. They're good guys and good climbers. Yes, of course it's the internet, we should sh#t on them. NOT. We should just wander over and actually look at the route. Nevermind.

You read that right. Sh#t, where's WandeFuca when you need a good troll.
BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
Amen Coz!!
And nice send Kalous!
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
Yes, Bruce, I am serious.

We were pretty disappointed to finally make it out to Taylor Cyn, and see the damage. The spalls are a couple of inches across.

Worse, someone obviously did the route, and then "backcleaned" it (since it diagonals).

Now, if they'd only known, then, how to chop properly.

What happened on Castleton can never happen in Canyonlands NP. I prefer BLM lands due to a lack of RR&Rs, at least for now. But, in Canyonlands: no hammering, no bolts (nowadays, climbers have been known to simulrappel off opposite side of a tower, since no new rap anchors are allowed) except in a life - threatening emergency...no chalk (generally ignored)...etc.
I'm not aware of any public land stewardship which presses the imperative to "preserve and protect for future generations."

Is this a good agenda?

Try to get a permit to bivi down on the White Rim...or in The Maze. A combination lock guards the 10mi 4x road to the "Tower" Anasazi ruin in the Needles District. 1st come, 1st served, no reservations for the combination...and it's 60 miles from Moab to the Visitors Center to get the permit.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 25, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
Seems like sour grapes and much ado about nothing. If you can't climb it, why be bothered by it. Does a view of bolts ruin your Desert experience?

Can we say Growing Up on Half Dome?
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
Locker vs Donni. Knife fight at dawn.

Epic E

Big Wall climber
CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
I don't like it because I cant climb it is what all the fuss is about. Instead of congratulating them on the send, pick it apart and call them out for not going ground up.

All the folks who don't understand why they didn't go ground up will never understand why and you will never climb a 5.13 "sport route". And im sure you could care less.

Why wouldn't you criticize a hard sport route? Theirs no way your going to put the time in to get stronger to climb it, . Keep putting your time and efforts into making other peoples achievements look bad on the internet.

Do any of you haters have any hard face climbs that you put up on lead that you could tell us about? I would like to climb them if you do. Where they at?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 25, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
Locker vs Donni. Knife fight at dawn.
Lol!
Well Donini has the reach, and the training, but locker is scrappy and agile. he might be able to run between his legs before taking a stab to the heart or other vital spot.

Somehow I see those two cracking up in laughter before getting lethal....
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
Hi Jaybro!

Edit: !!!
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
I don't recall anywhere near this much squabble over Excommunication. Is Castleton that much more sacred than the next door tower?
And when I look at that picture earlier in the thread with Sam and Chris's list of folks that they thank...it's a pretty solid list of Moab/Utah locals. Brad, Lisa, etc. If those folks are OK with it, I don't think too many out of the area folks have any right to complain.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 25, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
My $ is on Locker. I bet the dudes been in a bottle fight or two. :)
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 25, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
My $ is on Locker. I bet the dudes been in a bottle fight or two.

+1
dude looks like something out of metallica video
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
Dunno. Ever had Donini fix that icy stare on ya? Feller doesn't need a knife...
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Oct 25, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
The battle between Jim and I can be done as gentlemen...

I suggest that we simply toss a coin...

If I win Jim HAS TO bolt a new line of my choice...

If Jim wins...

I HAVE to have sex with this woman...


...




























































PLEASE LET JIM WIN!!!...


The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
Sounds like a win/win.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Oct 25, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
i agree with Jim.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 25, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
I just puked in my mouth...
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Oct 25, 2012 - 06:47pm PT


Plus what FOOL would want to get in a fight with such a legend???...


















































photo not found
Missing photo ID#270220
...
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
Don't swallow!

Next bout
The Kid vs The Coz

Should be a good match. Unless they get all bromantic.

Credit: The Larry

Credit: The Larry
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 25, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
Pratts Crack/Ecstasy
Pratts Crack/Ecstasy
Credit: justthemaid

(photo stolen from Mtn Proj)

Just another example ^^ Bolted .13 arete right next to trad "classics".

As for the new Castleton Route.. I try not to spray about anything I haven't seen in person so I don't really have an opinion about it either way.

Edit to add: Locker.. I'm going to have nightmares now. What has been seen.. cannot be unseen. :0
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 25, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
That arete looks too classic. Why is it bolted?



I can't climb that hard.




Tossers!
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 25, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
Tossers!

No that would be the guy that just puked in his mouth.
Sam Lightner, Jr

Social climber
WY
Oct 25, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
Some clarification for all of you.

First, Chris botled nothing. He redpointed the crux pitch... I bolted it.
Most of the bolts were place on rappel, but not all. If you place a bolt, place a good bolt... but try not to place a bolt. That is my philosophy.
The bolt every 7 feet thing is inaccurate... that may be the math, but I think you will find it a bit more spacious than that.
This is not the first bolted route on the tower. Obviously the older classics have them in certain places, like the two next to the crack on K.I. More to the point, Dan Osman bolted a line on the tower a few years before he died, and Jays route on the North Face is bolted. Nearby, Excommunication, but also Holier than Thou on the Nun, and the usual finish for people on Fine Jade. Twenty five feet left of this arete is a bolt ladder, the Arrow Route, with more bolts than this line. That is the only route you can see all the bolts in the crux from. Someone should take Huntely Ingals, Harvey Carter, and Layton Kor to take for bolts too, if thats what you have a problem with. None of the crack moves on this thing are bolted, just so you know. There is no reason for that. You do need to crack climb to do this route.

Those of you who said kudos, thank you. Its a really cool line. Those who ripped on me, whatever. Enjoy yourselves. Please don't climb this route, which by the way is the only one on the tower with bolts that are painted to match the rock, if you do not like that it was put up. Specifically, Jim, your pretense of purity gets old.

edit... this is probably the last I will have to say on st for a while. enjoy.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 25, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Good job on a route I'll never venture to Sam.
Epic E

Big Wall climber
CA
Oct 25, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
ripped
ripped
Credit: Epic E

I heard this chick already got the second accent. The word is she thinks its a soft 13b.
skywalker

climber
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:38am PT
I'm with Jeremy!

Is that real???

Yikes!

S....
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:41am PT


"The word is she thinks its a soft 13b."...



If I was with that BABE it would be a hard 8+...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:47am PT
If I was with that BABE it would be a hard 8+

Adopted the metric system, did ya?
locker

Social climber
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:58am PT


I've always wondered why the Xtra small Trojans were too big...

;-/
Brad Barlage

Trad climber
SLC, UT
Oct 26, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
I have been on the route and it is far from a "bolt ladder".

Sam has put up a lot of routes, and he did Ivory Tower right: safely bolted where there's no gear,and more space between hardware where the climbing is secure. Sam put a lot of hardwork and soul into the route.

If you've ever climbed in the desert, you've very likely clipped one of Sam's anchors. The entire community benefits from Sam's anchor replacement work and climbing preservation efforts.

Thanks for the new route, Sam. Congrats on the FFA to Sam and Chris Kalous...really inspiring to me.
The Alpine

climber
Oct 27, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
Blah blah blah.

I can understand the no bolt sentiment, but so what. Seems like a bad ass line that does not impede on the other routes.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Oct 27, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
I wonder how many climbers that oppose a route like this are capable of climbing it....?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 27, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
I wonder how many climbers that oppose a route like this are capable of climbing it....?


I wonder how long we're all going to harp on it. Both the pro and anti view are about as boring and hashed out as the other.

Although, we could get some good ol' choppin' threats, physical confrontation, as well as the inevitable conclusion of nothing actually happens.
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Oct 27, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
Cannot wait to get on this route.
Ben909

Trad climber
toronto
Oct 28, 2012 - 09:39am PT
Great post Sam and inspiring route. Looking forward to seeing it with my own eyes in a week or two (from a neighbouring route!).

Fluoride, the anti-bolt dogma that you cling to makes no sense when compared with the existing routes on Castleton (bolted pitch just left of the north chimney) and it is obvious that you just don't understand when you suggest Belly Full of Bad Berries as a 5.13 route that gets little traffic. No sh#t, it is a feet first puke fest! Then you suggest that Mill Creek is all sport which begs the question have you ever been there?
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
overchalking on Grant's Crack
Oct 28, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
Sounds like a great line. Nice job kids.

If anyone can be accused of thoughtless bolt placement, it isn't Sam. I bet he did a damn good job. Certainly he's been given a lot to think about in years and years of fixing other people's worn-out hardware and botch jobs.

"Bunch of Californians arguing against locals about desert ethics based on their trips to IC and the North Chimney. STFU." Ha! +1 for that.

Prezwoodz

climber
Anchorage
Oct 28, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
Didn't read all the posts but I thought there already was a sport pitch on Castleton. Isn't there a sport line variation for the last pitch of the North Face? Thought it was a 5.12 or something.

Not saying that there should be more or anything, guess its not for me to say...
Scott Bennett

Trad climber
Superior, Colorado
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
I'm late to the conversation, been out in the desert for a while.

I'm just writing to address the folks who complained that "only a small handful of people will ever be able to do" this route, and so it shouldn't be bolted.

The routes been up for less than two weeks, and has already seen three more attempts and one more redpoint (that I know of). I'm sure more attempts, and more sends, will go down in the next few weeks; the weather is perfect!

I can also vouch for the amazing quality of the rock and the moves. And of course the position is out-of-this-world!

Huge thanks to Sam for crafting this gem, and thanks to Chris for being badass!
Joe just barely missing the onsight of the crux pitch
Joe just barely missing the onsight of the crux pitch
Credit: Scott Bennett
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
^^^ That's what bolts are for... ^^^
Epic E

Big Wall climber
CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
"Bunch of Californians arguing against locals about desert ethics based on their trips to IC and the North Chimney. STFU." Ha! +1 for that.

Its funny how a route in Utah could be a problem in California. You guys are the shit! keep on sending out there and we'll keep arguing over here, makes me wish I was still living over that way. I definitely know some folks from CO that will be heading over to send it too.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
overchalking on Grant's Crack
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
Maybe some Californian complainers should go take the West Face apart, I bet no one's been on it since the arete got climbed. And that Arrowhead atrocity...who climbs that anymore?
Epic E

Big Wall climber
CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
Its really unbelievable how many shitty climbers there are in California that complain about everything. If your looking for shitty climbing partners with good ethics come on out to California.
Jimmy Russells

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
More to the point, Dan Osman bolted a line on the tower a few years before he died

More to the point, he put a few bolts into a roof next to some cool dino tracks and never finished it. Dano was an amazing, wonderful human being but those bolts are 10x worse than the new arete bolts. They don't go anywhere and I bet no one's even used them since the FA. Prime example that establishing routes "from the ground up" is sometimes not a good idea. Funny how you never hear about these bolts from "concerned citizens" like Flouride and Donini.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 3, 2012 - 12:03am PT
A Califronia Complainer? Is that like a New York Nick?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 3, 2012 - 12:57am PT
Tokyo Tea....
md307

climber
jackson, wy
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Wow, what a lot of hate. I have been on the route; it’s hard, aesthetic and proud. If you weren’t looking for it you wouldn’t be able to find it. My guess is that anyone that gets on it (and gets to the top!) will be psyched. If you are really going to discuss the value and appropriateness of a climb on Castleton then you should move one climb to the left. I believe it’s the “arrow route” and THAT IS a tasteless bolt ladder. It may have been done ground up but who cares? In my opinion that route was stolen from the future, with half as many bolts in different placements my guess is that the “arrow route” would go free as a spectacular face climb. Well done Sam.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
I agree with Gilwad. We won't complain if you put up some more routes in the Ghost. There was a lot of controversy around here when people started putting up long sport routes near Canmore. This died down after a bit and they became accepted.
I wish I could climb 5.13
howie doin'

climber
Big Pine, CA
Nov 14, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Castleton Tower is a sacred stone for climbers. I hope this new line proves to be proud and deserving of respect in our greater community. I hope it provides for an enjoyable and aesthetic climbing experience for those who can send at that grade. Anything less is a desecration. Style of ascent matters less in this case, if it meets the above criteria.

The bigger issue of concern here is the apparent lack of consensus amongst prominent Moab area climbers before action was taken on an iconic desert tower. Who knows what kind of disrespect could be done in the future?
benkiessel

Trad climber
Gunnison, Co
Nov 14, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
Personally I'm super stoked about this route. I think it took some real vision to find this line.
I don't understand all the complaints.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 14, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
Hmmmm.

I have nothing but respect for Chris, don't really know Sam.

But I have climbed with the Colofornian whiners too.




I'm with the "haters gonna hate" school.

The only way I see to calm people down about this route is to go ahead with a bottom to top bolt ladder on the Nuns for BASE jumpers called Force Of Habit,..
Bill Grasse

climber
Durango, CO.
Nov 14, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
I think that this thing looks sick! Nice job Sam! I don't understand all the hatin.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 14, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
How about Farce of Habit?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 14, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
Nah, that would have to be with a hand drill.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 14, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
Looks like a bitchin route.

My $0.02.

JA
Epic E

Big Wall climber
CA
Nov 14, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
"apparent lack of consensus amongst prominent Moab area climbers"

More Californian complaining will get everybody over in the moab area together for a consensus for sure next time.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Nov 14, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Did you guys hear? Someone found the G-spot!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 14, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Someone found the G-spot!
I didn't know it got lost
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Nov 14, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
This route sounds boss, cannot wait to climb it! And a great idea Ron!

ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
I have not seen it in person, and probably could not make it up the thing if I was there. HOWEVER, it looks pretty bad ass from the topo and description. Good on the FA party for having the vision to develop an (apparently) awesome route.
Farky

Big Wall climber
Durango, CO
Nov 15, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
I remember when I heard about a 10-pitch 5.11 sport route in Zion. I was blown away. In a land of splitter cracks and splitter routes, I enjoyed plugging gear and cranking jams. Just listening about it made me cringe. 10 pitches, all those damn bolts!!! Made me sick. It took a while but what the...I climbed it. Wow...what a route. Superb. All the right bolts, spaced out for some spice, a wonderful route by some insightful climbers. So...
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 15, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
I'll never climb it. But wow, that thing looks RAD. Good job you guys!

There is nothing like a rad arete route....double exposure!



Oh, by the way.........I know all about the G spot.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Nov 15, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
Articles like the one posted in the OP are why I stopped reading Climbing years ago. Who the fuh-ch cares about some 5.13 sh#t.

Way more fun here talkin about twinkies and sheat.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 15, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
Who the fuh-ch cares about some 5.13 sh#t.


You know like a fifth of the world watched the olympics, right?
piquaclimber

Trad climber
SEKI
Nov 16, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
I'm late to this thread but wow, what a bunch of lame arguments against this route. It looks badass.

RIGHT ON SAM! CONGRATULATIONS!

I posted the text below in an appreciation thread about Sam a while back but I think I'll repost it here after reading so much negative bullsh#t.

Sam had just climbed his 100th desert tower when I posted this...



"Just climbing 100 towers in the desert is impressive but what really struck me were the stats that went along with those towers...

29 were done solo
69 had anchor replacement or required new anchors
20 via a new route
12 were first ascents of the tower

I'm posting this because he would consider it bad form to spray about his contributions online.

BUT COME ON!

Out of 100 towers he has taken the time to install solid anchors on 69 of them. That's freaking awesome! Having been there for a few of those towers I can attest that replacing old angles and faded slings with half inch bolts and beefy chain does not make for a light pack! In fact, we weighed his solo haulbag the last time I was in Moab and it came in at 77lbs.

He has also
1. Funded the anchor replacement work he has done.

2. Served on the board of the Access Fund for 6 years.

3. Put up hundreds of routes from Utah to Thailand that have been enjoyed by thousands of climbers from all over the world.

4. Written 7 books including the guidebook for Thailand, All Elevations Unknown (about a wild expedition to a giant spire in the heart of Borneo that had never been explored by climbers), Exotic Rock (which covers Japan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Morocco, Greece, Norway, and South Africa), and the Roads Through Time series. (The Moab - Roads Through Time book is particularly interesting if you spend much time in the area)

5. Served 3 years as the President of the Moab Area Climbers Alliance, who's goal is to restore/improve the relationship between climbers and the NPS units in the Moab area."

Not covered above is the fact that Sam has been involved with Friends of Indian Creek for years and is currently the President.

In short, Sam has done a LOT for our climbing community (including putting up an amazing aręte route on Castleton) and all of you haters should calm down, get some perspective, and go climb something!


Brad Brandewie
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Nov 16, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
But being whiney about someone putting those god forbidden bolts on ultra classic crags is cooler than actually climbing.





"I don't always climb, but when I do, I make sure it's 5.9"
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 16, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
Even better

Route looks bitchen to me


Like I said - that's what bolts are for


A few fellers round here need to open their minds a tad, methinks
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 16, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
Ya ya,
I've climbed a few towers and left solid anchors on them.


Everybody should.

If they wanna whine let 'em whine over slouch jobs!
rapchopper

Trad climber
moab, utah
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:34am PT
NOTE: this route is number 1 on the chop list. Blatant disrespect to the most proud tower in the desert... You dont do this to desert towers....
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:37am PT
make sure you use your real name so everyone knows who to give credit.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Wait until after I get on it though...
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Bitching and whining like a bunch of tea-drinking old grandmothers on an internet forum is super effective.....keep up the good work.

Dont forget, chopping is ugly too. Minimize the damage thats already done by not causing more with estrogen or testosterone filled idealism and angst. If you dont like it dont climb it. If you dont live there, dont raise such a stink. Help the locals do whatever theyre gonna do, but jeebus jehosephat, pick your goddamn fights.

Most on here can do nothing but aid up the damn thing anyway or come down from the top. I dont like the fact that old boy put bolts up there, but its done, its there. Do our best to stop flagrant and unnecessary bolting, but until we can climb 5.13, how will we know if its unnecessary? Just because we/you/they dont climb 13 doesnt mean that its a blasphemy
weezy

climber
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:42am PT
NOTE: this route is number 1 on the chop list. Blatant disrespect to the most proud tower in the desert... You dont do this to desert towers....

MOMMY MOMMY LOOK I'M TROLLING ON THE COMPUTER!
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
Only time will tell if the bolts are worth it. I know I will certainly never climb it. I dont think I could climb 13b at my physical prime so it is not going to happen for me in this lifetime. If superhero climbers that can climb 13+ actually go out and enjoy this route, I see no problem with it. if the route languishes into obscurity, it seems the bolting could be viewed as unnecessary since only a few extract enjoyment from the route.
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
^^^He gets it
rapchopper

Trad climber
moab, utah
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:25am PT
Hey weezy, i did find your mom on the computer, Redtube you should check her out
Scole

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Why?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
If superhero climbers that can climb 13+ actually go out and enjoy this route, I see no problem with it. if the route languishes into obscurity, it seems the bolting could be viewed as unnecessary since only a few extract enjoyment from the route.

The same should apply to "museum climbs" that were sketched up by some dude on acid back in the 70's and haven't been touched since. If the standard is maximum enjoyment for those who would use that chunk of rock, why limit access to all those otherwise fun 5.8's by insisting that the original 40+ foot runouts be maintained?
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Jan 25, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
So following that logic, an obscure bolted sport route that is rarely climbed should be chopped? Who thinks routes are put up solely for noobs enjoyment? I happen to like runout slabs.
BrentA

Gym climber
Roca Rojo
Jan 25, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
This thread really mystifies me.

Two life-long established climbers, whom are known to live way on the good side of the style curve, establish a stellar looking arete climb on a classic tower.

What is the point of the story here? You aren't allowed to put new bolts on old towers?

I genuinely don't understand the counter-argument to this route.

This thread has more hate than the Fisher Towers slack line thread.

Climbings crazy.
rapchopper

Trad climber
moab, utah
Jan 27, 2013 - 06:56am PT
When you have a reputation as a rap bolter you are not looked at as an established climber but more of a rich prick that has no concern for desert climbing ethics.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 27, 2013 - 07:25am PT
When you are too chickenshit to use your real name when you spray negative sh#t about other climbers you come off as a complete and totall as#@&%e.
Nick Goldsmith
rapchopper

Trad climber
moab, utah
Jan 27, 2013 - 11:24am PT
I am a total as#@&%e who plays by the original ethics of desert climbing... I witness the best quality climbs being established from the ground up by the hardest climbers on the planet. If you dont want to run into as#@&%es like me i would suggest areas that have different climbing ethics. Its like climbing in the Czech Repub. with cams..... So i ask who is really the as#@&%e?
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Jan 27, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Meh. If you can't stand behind your words you are a coward not an azzhole.
rapchopper

Trad climber
moab, utah
Jan 28, 2013 - 07:42am PT
Hey Larry, hope your dog shits in your truck again....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 29, 2013 - 10:39am PT
Our rules are pretty damn stupid sometimes. not only are the rulzs stupid but they are highly situational depending on who you are. Folks with the right street creds get a free pass while no names or less populer/out of towners get crucified.

According to the rulze it is completly aceptable to establish an aid line ground up with all kinds of trenching, chiseling, drilling, chipping and hammering yet a free climber who chips a single hold is crucified and god forbid someone established a hard free climb that atually makes sense and has the clips in the right places. I have done my share of GU bolting and sometimes it works out great but other times you end up with a sh#t show that could have been avoided with some pre inspection and planning. It sounds like Dannos incomplete line of ground up bolts on Castelton could have been avoided with a bit of pre inspection?
rapchopper

Trad climber
moab, utah
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:52am PT
Tradman, boy you really got it figured out.....Lay off the crack pipe!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 30, 2013 - 06:44am PT
Don't smoke, do drugs or drink. Guess that violates a few of your rules as well....
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 30, 2013 - 07:03am PT
I think you've got a good point tradman.

I've noticed the same thing.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jan 30, 2013 - 09:12am PT
I am a total as#@&%e who plays by the original ethics of desert climbing

No, you're a 14 year old kid from sheboygan.

Because you see, you cannot claim anything about the strength of your character when you remain anonymous online. You may have many valid opinions and points, but you are an anonymous person so I get to assume your identity.

Go have your mom make you a hot pocket, like the good little virgin teenager you are. One day you can bring a name or a face to your cred, but until then you have to sit at the kids table.

Greg
pelut espania

Big Wall climber
Espania
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:04am PT
You american dogs have no site or the balls with all these bolts! Little peepee and big bolts for the american dogs! WOOF!! LOL!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Is Pelut the Mexican/Spanish version of Werner?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Pelut is pissed because he got busted for cheating his way up stuff in the Fishers.
Big Spaniard, little ballz, or something like that.

But his mama was plenty friendly.....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
+100 for tradman.

-10^5 for rapchuffer.

I've always been appalled by the damage aid climbers do, especially in soft sandstone, and especially when they whine about bolts on sport climbs.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
the californicated tradiban need to get over themselves. Your ethics are in your own head, and have nothing to do with the reality of modern rock climbing.

Besides, the chalk and shiney chains on the IC traderoutes with waiting lines are way more of a visual and environmental impact than bolts on a 13 you will never be fit enough to do.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Pelut is pissed because he got busted for cheating his way up stuff in the Fishers.
Big Spaniard, little ballz, or something like that.

Actually he's a troll. Not the real Pelut.

This is the real Pelut. un de tants

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=Ozo1PDc3JyYl

Hey rapbolter, make sure you climb the route before you chop. Otherwise you're a hypocrite!!
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
Hey rapbolter, tell what is your motivation to spent time chopping and rappelling instead of climbing?
Is puling the bolts give to you physical pleasure?
Are you proud that you chopped specific routes you can spray about? ( do you use your real name for spray?)
Anything else I missed?

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 30, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
Not my place, but Ill agree with Donini..It wasnt needed there on a classic . Forced lines of bolts isnt the classic in the making, not there. YUes it seems an awfully hard achievement for the fa team, but it may well have been a major oooops too...
melski

Trad climber
bytheriver
Feb 1, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
ahr,,there pilgrims,,thee oribill truth i;s ,,now we gatta bunch ah these kid whipper,winers,snivlen,about havento pay back all those loans fer somsmarts that dont pay,,at the base of a perfectly good stone ,,,,ahr,,,thats all i;m talking bout,,,
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Feb 1, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
*sigh* You start out reading something like this and think you've got something to contribute, but after a couple pages you realize there are 217 comments and several people have already done said what I think.

Karodrinker was correct back on page one, there are more people climbing 5.13 than you think, they just don't post here on the old folks home.

I'm pretty much in the "its a big tent and there's room for everyone at the table" camp, though I certainly understand and sympathize with Donini's reaction.

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