Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
|
Medusa, I'm not sure, please don't quote me, but rumor has it that there are still some cliffs left with natural lines where, you know, you can use gear and not even place bolts. But, oh my God!, if you place your own gear you might have to go a full body length with noooo protection. Whoa, I got sweaty palms just writing that.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
|
Medusa, Wow!, I'm out in the boondocks where that kind of shite doesn't happen. If someone did that in the Black Canyon they would end up as trout food in the Gunnison River.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
|
Send that boy Doe and his confederates to me. I'll put them through climbing boot camp and they'll come back changed men.....oops, I meant boys.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
|
I'm not a fan of chipping, but frankly, it's not really any worse than what goes on in alot of non-clean aid.
I fail to see how a small hold or two added to a blank section for free climbing has more of an impact than a rivet ladder?
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
|
Not defending some of the stuff that goes on in aid climbing, but it is called "artificial" climbing. Free climbing is supposed to be more natural and more dependent on what your body can do and less dependent in what technology can do.
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
|
"All new fat bolt's". LOL!
Nice job Medusa! catch ya' later!
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
|
True Jim, and I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate here, as I really don't like chipping, but there are two arguments usually made against it.
1. Don't do it because someone else might be able to come along and do it without the added holds. In my mind the same argument should hold in aid climbing. Who is to say someone with better or bolder aid skills couldn't do some sections on hooks, or with less rivits, or maybe a cheater stick?
2. Rock damage -- if you're going to allow protection bolts, small chipped holds probably have less impact. Certainly less impact than extensive use of rivits or pins.
Basically we're criticizing this guy for a small amount of chipping done a while ago. If we are to take him at his word, and he sounds pretty straight, it was pretty limited and he doesn't do it anymore. By that standard, there are alot of old aid climbers that should be in for equal criticism in my mind.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
|
I have to admit even at 26 when I started climbing I was retro, in that what interested me was the problem was not presented me or was structured by another human. I had enough of that in the other parts of my life. The problem was presented by nature and was entirely unaffected by the presence of other people. Using fixed protection was not a problem as I could put it in if I wanted so, no problem.
There was a flip side to this though. If I did not want my experience to be fashioned by someone else, if I wanted others to have the same thing I wanted, simple courtesy required me not myself to start structuring or changing the rock and its natural problems. To the extent that I changed what was there, I was not being honest with myself. You don't want to do that as it is the start of a long slide to a place no one should want to go.
As it happened, pretty much everyone in those days felt something very close to this.
It was this, that helped make rock damage an issue transcending all other considerations.
The unanimity in that community made the climbing experience different from almost all the other parts of life.
I would not have missed it for the world.
|
|
doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
|
Stevepp,
I don't agree with your arguments, when you aid a section your saying "I can't free climb this section", when you chip thorugh a hard section your saying " nobody could free this section" and that's been proven false over and over.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
|
Stevep, I don't know Graham Doe, or his story, he's probably a good guy. If I used his name, somewhat jokingly, it was to illustrate my feelings about the general issue of bolting and chipping. What I have said is not about anyone in particular but about the general topic.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
|
Doughnut, there are no shortage of people who have freed aid climbs. Sometimes that is because of pin scars, sometimes not. Should those climbs also not have been aided, given the possibilities of future free climbers?
Even more climbs have been aided with rock damaging technique when they could have gone clean. Shouldn't we be criticizing those guys for not seeing the future?
And Jim, I think you and are on the same page as far as chipping, my point is more that I think aid climbers frequently get off too lightly.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
|
Heh heh heh Chief - when a friend showed his mom El Cap from the meadow, and explained aid climbing to her, she said "So...they're not really CLIMBING, are they?"
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
|
Stevep, I agree on both points- over and out, up early to go to the Black.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
|
Good grief ..... what a thread.
|
|
Karmakanix
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
|
|
|
May 22, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
|
Well shiez, what a thread. I happen to know Grahm pretty well. He is an altruistic didge player with a true penchant for climbing. He has pioneered so much of Shuteye, way lotsa routes, and spent more time there than most people do working their careers. I have climbed with Grahm and spent mucho awe time watching him put up Turkey Vuture. I, for one, completely trust Grahm's ethics about both climbing and Ma Nature's rocks. I would suggest the originator of this threads qualify and quantify his claims or else retract said pile of slander. (trad climber from: behind your back) Sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black. As far as the snowmobile, some just can't wait to get back to their favorite places on earth. So prove it or can it! Half you guys can not even spell his name.
|
|
jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 12:46am PT
|
If true lame. Confession ? Pictures in the act? Is this graham dating an ex of yours and you have other motives?Def. bad if true. Leaving your darn toilet paper on top of your poop pile is bad too. Lots of people do that.
|
|
MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 12:56am PT
|
just wanted to post to this important thread!!!11!!
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 01:06am PT
|
My thoughts are that on many new routes, tons of loose rock gets removed to clean the route. What is the distinction between chipping and cleaning, I guess a very fine line. I'm not for chipping but I climb allot of routes where there is fresh rock scar from loose rock being pulled. So I think that this is a area with allot of fudge room unless someone is outright taking their hammer and chisel and making crimpers. Sounds like the accused has better ethics to me then the spraymaster who blasted him.
|
|
Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 01:09am PT
|
Chippy McNut and the Epoxy Escapades.
|
|
sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 01:43am PT
|
I've climbed in Yosemite.
Freeclimbed, mostly.
hitting the "classics"
Manufactured freeclimbs.
All of them (I've done)
Manmade
Whatever.
How come no- one talks about it?
A.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!