Discussion Topic |
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Reporter
Trad climber
behind your back
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 21, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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On the loose!!fullnames to be diclosed soon + damage report!
Gram Doe
Mike mathison
brent
and some other guy.
Chipping routes on clean granite!
shut eye ridge!
Chipping and drilling pockets!acton area
Punch bowl.
Big bear areas. out of control!
should be shot.
Those guys cant climb very well so they gotta chop it down to there level! Truly a bunch of chicken s&^losers!
ban them from climbing! Pull up a chair This is just the begining to the opening to the gates of hell for the chipping crews! Bolts will be pulled!
New report Cuiquito dome!
Fully chiped 12b rapbolted sport by no other than Mr Doe!
Why are all his routes 12's I guess he just can get past that # ha ha ha!
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couchmaster
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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Hmmmmmmm,
pulls up a chair......
Expecting well over 100 uninformed rants soon to follow from people who have no knowledge of the area, the people who climb there or the routes. Just like me, except I'll be quiet as this might even just be a lie from an anonymous dude with an axe to grind.
Hoping for some real facts here....but this is the internet....
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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May 21, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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This ought to be good!
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dirtbag
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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yeah!
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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May 21, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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Is this the same Grahm that was riding a snowmobil up at Shuteye? Please ladies ride sidesaddle, we can see your pettycoats!!!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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May 21, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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Reporter - great first post!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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May 21, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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ooooooo, Goody!
(Rubs hands together...)
Who knows more about this?
Reporter, details? Proof? Photos?
Dirty Laundry wants to know!
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tom Slater
Trad climber
CA
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May 21, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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It's hard for me to buy into a thread where the poster is obviously straining to remain anonymous while he names everyone else in the wrong. Spill it, but go mano a mano.
"French sometimes use this expression in a blend of the Portuguese and Spanish meaning. “Donner quelque chose de mano a mano” means to give something to someone in person, with direct physical contact (as opposed to using an intermediary, be it a common friend, a phone call or an e-mail)." wikipedia
That's how John Wayne woulda done it.
Otherwise you're just attacting flies...
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Loomis
climber
*_*
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May 21, 2009 - 04:28pm PT
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I have heard that routes Ron Carson and I established, have now been "enhanced" as well... Fúck!
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kev
climber
CA
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May 21, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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I agree - kinda BS to name names yet hide yourself. Seems a little chicken sh#t.
Further if you going to 'report' on something then do it. State the facts have some pictures, etc. What routes? Show me some pictures of the chipped holds. Don't just toss a load of slander out there.
kev
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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> New report Cuiquito dome!
> Fully chiped 12b rapbolted sport by no other than Mr Doe!
How new? This sounds more like Gold Standard (at Chiquito Dome), which had one chipped hold in 2007 and was not Grahm's route.
"Fully chiped" suggests several chipped holds. I'm not saying one chipped hold is good, but you should be more careful with your credibility if you are serious.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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Wow, blowing things a little out of proportion are we?
I have nothing to hide. Yes there are some chipped holds on two routes of mine at Acton. The rock is over hanging crumbling crap. Half of it falls off from cleaning. Is that chipping? I dug out some mud pockets, big deal. Go ahead and shoot me. There is not any glue.
Who are you to rain down judgement on others? The vast majority of my routes are all natural. I can give an honest accounting of any of my routes if you want it. Name the route...
You are pretty ill informed about Shuteye as well. Have you even climbed there? Stop hiding behind "informer" if you want to slander me at least give me the pleasure of knowing your name.
Not that it matters but I can climb 13d. Yes, I have video to prove it...
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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Medusa, you never chopped any of my routes. That was someone elses route. I never chipped anything at Devils Punchbowl. In fact I have seen you on video spraying about how much you love the "Cracker" on hidden wall. Thats one of mine.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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May 21, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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Grahm,
What routes have chipped holds at Shuteye and who chipped them?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 21, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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who brought beer?
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tom Slater
Trad climber
CA
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May 21, 2009 - 05:42pm PT
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This will start a whole new debate, but define chipping. If I clean a route of loose rock, is that chipping? If I knock off a rocking hold that will blow off after a couple ascents, is that chipping? What if I round off the edges so I don't cut open my finger every time I climb it? Or do I have to bust out a chisel?
To me, chipping is when you make a route easier so you can climb it.
Hold on, I'm getting a beer...
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kev
climber
CA
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May 21, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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Nature,
I always bring beer.
Tom,
Always start with a beer - it isn't just for breakfast anymore!
kev
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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Beer and popcorn sound pretty good about now...
Out of over 50 routes I have done in Shuteye 2 have 1 or 2 enhanced features. I have a 12d on Chiquito that has two enhanced features through an unclimbable section. I thought this was better than having an aid bolt. The enhancing is minimal and is as "natural" as possible working with the features that are there. On the Aerie I have a 13a/b that has a created slot in a seam. Again through an unclimbable section. I thought one enhanced hold was worth the sacrifice to link up a killer line through some big roofs. If it can be climbed without it I will fill it in and camouflage it but I highly doubt it.
I won't comment on the handful of other routes that have some enhancing because they are not my routes. I love natural routes and avoid chipping as much as possible. I have walked away from many climbs that I found out after cleaning wouldn't go. After putting up hundreds of routes on all types of rock I have my own criteria for route development. I think cleaning, wire brushing, removing loose rock and snapping off hollow flakes is acceptable if it makes for a better line. Try a bunch of my routes and let me know what you think. Most people like them.
The 12b at Chiquito has 3 or 4 snapped thin flakes that left square cuts. I climbed it before but thought it would be better with the flakes gone. It did make it easier but I also think its better. I wouldn't call the whole thing chipped for that.
I know everyone won't agree with my decisions but based on my experience I make the best choices I can.
PS I also put up routes on lead, ground up and with no pre inspection. So there...
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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I almost free climbed the West Face of the Sentinel once. I couldn't do it - there was one move that stopped me.
There was one feature I could have "enhanced" and the move would have gone. I left it as it stands for someone better than I to free someday....
Enhancing/chipping is the same as aid climbing.... you just can't see the point of aid so easily.
It's easier and cleaner to remove an aid bolt than to un-do some chipping.
Just a thought, jb
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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May 21, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
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If I can't "clean" a new route with a nut tool or whatever is in my pocket that day, the hold stays. If it breaks while I (or anyone else) is climbing it, then the flake/hold was not meant to stay.
Taking off huge chunks for safety is another matter, and other means may be employed--still, one has to question if it is worth the rock desecration that ensues.
I would like to have the style/skills of JB, but I learned to (put up) climb(s) in relative isolation without any ethics police to aid in my discretion, so I may be a bit jaded.
Luckily, there is way more rock around here than climbers, so if you don't like my ways--find your own dam rock(s) and do it your way.
Heavily poplulated/trafficked areas do not have the same luxury, and as such, come under intense scrutiny as observed in this thread. Good luck keeping the peace.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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May 21, 2009 - 06:59pm PT
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What Bachar said.
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jstan
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 06:59pm PT
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I have to ask. Does aid generally start at 5.12 or does it even go down to 5.11 or 5.10?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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May 21, 2009 - 07:13pm PT
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OOps ! Chipping and gluing....thought this was a finger/toe nail thread. :DD
Enhance...."To increase or improve in value, quality, desirability or attractiveness."
Maybe another word for chipping and gluing needs to be found. Enhance may not fit the ticket.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 21, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
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Bachar has it.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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May 21, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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All of us agreeing with/relating to JB are overlooking a small part of his story--he was on an established route trying to free it.
Not exactly the same as walking up to a cliff (with few or no visits) and seeing if the nature of the rock will allow a route to go in the best style possible for the conditions.
...jus' sayin' it's a little apples/oranges in this case, whatever the feelings involved.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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May 21, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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I think John was trying to make a point. The point being that even though a route may appear to be unclimbable, due to one or two "blank" or "impossible" moves, it's best left to the next person or generation that may be able to make it go. Or, in it's most basic form, it's best not to bring the rock down to your level. And no matter how it's spun, that's what's happened. And it's certainly not apples and oranges, the ethic and principle are the same, regardless of whether or not the route has been climbed already or not.
I wonder how many routes out there could have gone a long time ago, at significantly lower grades, with a little chipping? How many .14s could have gone years earlier with a few things modified down to .13, the same for .15s, etc. Just a thought...
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 21, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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jstan - these days I think aid starts at 5.3.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 21, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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THere is a world of difference between glueing and chipping (I have done neither)
Some crags have essential holds that won't remain without glueing. That becomes a local issue.
Chipping is something else. For established climbing areas it seems out of line almost all the time (but it happens, even in the roundabout way Bridwell pinned out Freestone "cause it would have happened anyway"
Still, if I lived in some off the track area, jonesing to climb, and we had a crag that was blankish but could be climbed with some chipping, I still wouldn't chip it (cause I'm lazy), but would probably be happy if others did.
So the devil is in the details, post up what happened
Peace
Karl
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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May 21, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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Grahm,
Seeing as this issue has been raised and discussed among a limited number of Shuteye locals several years ago, is it your sense that chipping has slowed or abated in the region? I know you can't speak for the other "enhanced" routes and their authors, but word has it some of the heavy hold modification has appeared in the 5.11a range. Many who love the region and it's amazing rock are listening intently.
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jstan
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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So I guess the way is open for me to be the first person ever to do Everest without oxygen ten times in one day. I'll git me one o'them Erickson Sky Cranes, turbo charge the hell out of it, and cut the weight in half. One problem. Based upon my experience I think it best if I piss on the summit each time. Maybe I could do it eight times?
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Radish
Trad climber
Seki, California
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May 21, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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Hey, Everest is only 5.7 right??
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jstan
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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It is if the stirrups have been left on the step. But my route will be much more elegant.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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As far as I know there is no more chipping. Enough bad feelings are floating around about it! There is one 11 that had 2 holds chipped but that route developer has agreed to not do this anymore. The rumor mill is blowing the whole thing out of proportion. There are hundreds of routes at Shuteye that are all natural and a very small handful that have a few holds chipped. The valley has more chipping in my opinion.
Bottom line there is room for a thousand more routes. Come on out and put something up in your style.
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tom Slater
Trad climber
CA
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May 21, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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Grahm's been pretty straight up, so the remaining question is...
why is "reporter" hiding, and why so angry, and so willing to make personal attacks?
He lit the fire and took off. Not super impressed.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 21, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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Agree that a real straight up discussion is in order, not a pitchforks and torches overgeneralization by anonymous sources.
Graham seems willing to talk reasonably. What's the issue and, since he reports that chipping has stopped, how does the community move forward?
Graham, not saying you were right or wrong to establish what went up so far, but, given the same circumstances now, would you make the same call?
Peace
Karl
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wtfd
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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so, the chipping thing has been pretty much summed up, what about gluing, ive got a project the hasnt been solved, the saving grace of the route, (for me) would be to glue a hold, going from a bad sloaper to a nice incut jug. the hold is still in place, but would come out with a tug in the wrong direction. what say you?
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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May 22, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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I always loved the "don't bring it down to your level" argument (not that I condone chipping). Doesn't doing anything other than climbing solo, on-sight, and naked involve "bringing it down to your level" (rock shoes with sticky rubber, chalk, ropes, gear, etc.?) The idea of "bringing it down to your level" isn't really what's being questioned (we all do that). The argument is about the methods that we employ to bring it down to our level. Just a thought.
Another thought: What's the difference between an absolutely blank face (vertical and smooth as glass) with a few aid bolts and the same face with a few chipped holds, where the amount of rock removed for the chipped holds equals the amount of rock removed for the bolt holes?
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dirhk
Trad climber
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May 22, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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I think it would be cool to take the bolt ladders in Yosemite and put gym holds there instead, using the original bolt holes. The climbing would be cooler and the impact the same, right? The leaning tower first pitches could be way fun, instead of a boring bolt ladder. Just leave a bolt every now and then to avoid death.
As far as first ascents go, why not just glue on a plastic hold instead of chipping? When it gets done without the plastic hold, rip it off, no impact at all. Much better than drilling an aid bolt.
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Reporter
Trad climber
behind your back
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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Tom slater Doe!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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Creepy!!! The rationalizations going on. Chipping or gluing can never be justified and anyone who does should be banned to a lifetime of "gym only" climbing. You know there is a lot of unexplored, untouched rock out there- go explore! I hear so many people on ST posting about the same, relatively few climbs in the same places. No wonder people are bored enough to even consider chipping and gluing. A sign that the apocalypse is upon is all of the posting I've seen on that abortion of a climb Serenity Crack. Expand your horizons!!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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As you know Fattrad there are first ascents and then there are first ascents. I'll take quality over quantity anytime. If people are willing to walk a little they can find FA's that they won't have to artificially bring down to there level.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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Yeah!!! Lets make fertilizer out of them. Then we could get some grass to grow in Camp 4.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
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Medusa, I'm not sure, please don't quote me, but rumor has it that there are still some cliffs left with natural lines where, you know, you can use gear and not even place bolts. But, oh my God!, if you place your own gear you might have to go a full body length with noooo protection. Whoa, I got sweaty palms just writing that.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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Medusa, Wow!, I'm out in the boondocks where that kind of shite doesn't happen. If someone did that in the Black Canyon they would end up as trout food in the Gunnison River.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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Send that boy Doe and his confederates to me. I'll put them through climbing boot camp and they'll come back changed men.....oops, I meant boys.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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May 22, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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I'm not a fan of chipping, but frankly, it's not really any worse than what goes on in alot of non-clean aid.
I fail to see how a small hold or two added to a blank section for free climbing has more of an impact than a rivet ladder?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
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Not defending some of the stuff that goes on in aid climbing, but it is called "artificial" climbing. Free climbing is supposed to be more natural and more dependent on what your body can do and less dependent in what technology can do.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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May 22, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
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"All new fat bolt's". LOL!
Nice job Medusa! catch ya' later!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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May 22, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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True Jim, and I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate here, as I really don't like chipping, but there are two arguments usually made against it.
1. Don't do it because someone else might be able to come along and do it without the added holds. In my mind the same argument should hold in aid climbing. Who is to say someone with better or bolder aid skills couldn't do some sections on hooks, or with less rivits, or maybe a cheater stick?
2. Rock damage -- if you're going to allow protection bolts, small chipped holds probably have less impact. Certainly less impact than extensive use of rivits or pins.
Basically we're criticizing this guy for a small amount of chipping done a while ago. If we are to take him at his word, and he sounds pretty straight, it was pretty limited and he doesn't do it anymore. By that standard, there are alot of old aid climbers that should be in for equal criticism in my mind.
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jstan
climber
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May 22, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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I have to admit even at 26 when I started climbing I was retro, in that what interested me was the problem was not presented me or was structured by another human. I had enough of that in the other parts of my life. The problem was presented by nature and was entirely unaffected by the presence of other people. Using fixed protection was not a problem as I could put it in if I wanted so, no problem.
There was a flip side to this though. If I did not want my experience to be fashioned by someone else, if I wanted others to have the same thing I wanted, simple courtesy required me not myself to start structuring or changing the rock and its natural problems. To the extent that I changed what was there, I was not being honest with myself. You don't want to do that as it is the start of a long slide to a place no one should want to go.
As it happened, pretty much everyone in those days felt something very close to this.
It was this, that helped make rock damage an issue transcending all other considerations.
The unanimity in that community made the climbing experience different from almost all the other parts of life.
I would not have missed it for the world.
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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May 22, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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Stevepp,
I don't agree with your arguments, when you aid a section your saying "I can't free climb this section", when you chip thorugh a hard section your saying " nobody could free this section" and that's been proven false over and over.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
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Stevep, I don't know Graham Doe, or his story, he's probably a good guy. If I used his name, somewhat jokingly, it was to illustrate my feelings about the general issue of bolting and chipping. What I have said is not about anyone in particular but about the general topic.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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May 22, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
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Doughnut, there are no shortage of people who have freed aid climbs. Sometimes that is because of pin scars, sometimes not. Should those climbs also not have been aided, given the possibilities of future free climbers?
Even more climbs have been aided with rock damaging technique when they could have gone clean. Shouldn't we be criticizing those guys for not seeing the future?
And Jim, I think you and are on the same page as far as chipping, my point is more that I think aid climbers frequently get off too lightly.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 22, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
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Heh heh heh Chief - when a friend showed his mom El Cap from the meadow, and explained aid climbing to her, she said "So...they're not really CLIMBING, are they?"
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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Stevep, I agree on both points- over and out, up early to go to the Black.
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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Good grief ..... what a thread.
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Karmakanix
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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May 22, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Well shiez, what a thread. I happen to know Grahm pretty well. He is an altruistic didge player with a true penchant for climbing. He has pioneered so much of Shuteye, way lotsa routes, and spent more time there than most people do working their careers. I have climbed with Grahm and spent mucho awe time watching him put up Turkey Vuture. I, for one, completely trust Grahm's ethics about both climbing and Ma Nature's rocks. I would suggest the originator of this threads qualify and quantify his claims or else retract said pile of slander. (trad climber from: behind your back) Sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black. As far as the snowmobile, some just can't wait to get back to their favorite places on earth. So prove it or can it! Half you guys can not even spell his name.
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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May 23, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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If true lame. Confession ? Pictures in the act? Is this graham dating an ex of yours and you have other motives?Def. bad if true. Leaving your darn toilet paper on top of your poop pile is bad too. Lots of people do that.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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May 23, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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just wanted to post to this important thread!!!11!!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 23, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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My thoughts are that on many new routes, tons of loose rock gets removed to clean the route. What is the distinction between chipping and cleaning, I guess a very fine line. I'm not for chipping but I climb allot of routes where there is fresh rock scar from loose rock being pulled. So I think that this is a area with allot of fudge room unless someone is outright taking their hammer and chisel and making crimpers. Sounds like the accused has better ethics to me then the spraymaster who blasted him.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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May 23, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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Chippy McNut and the Epoxy Escapades.
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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May 23, 2009 - 01:43am PT
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I've climbed in Yosemite.
Freeclimbed, mostly.
hitting the "classics"
Manufactured freeclimbs.
All of them (I've done)
Manmade
Whatever.
How come no- one talks about it?
A.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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May 23, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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Wow, this is getting good. I have to laugh a little at this.
Anyone who knows Medusa knows what his slander is worth.
Well, I am off to put up some more classics tomorrow. Can't wait to read what happens while I am gone!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 23, 2009 - 03:00am PT
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All these people arguing and nobody has a real name.
lame...
But I'm with MisterE....!!!!1111666 I just wanted to post to this awesome thread.
Lamers....
Edit: sac, good question. The hard free lines on El Cap wouldn't exist if they were not chipped.... I mean nailed..
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
the greasewood ghetto
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May 23, 2009 - 04:02am PT
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" Well, I am off to put up some more classics . . . "
(having already copped to sculpting holds ...) IE they are gunna be "classics" cuz rapping bass-akwards into it firstly , then beating the shlt into submission . A foregone conclusion .
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 23, 2009 - 04:38am PT
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When you do new routes, in ANY style, some people are going to get on your ass over it.......people like to whine. Grahm seems like a motivated, shoot from the hip, modern sort of guy....and I bet he aint' the first to do " a dirty deed done dirt cheap.".......While I personally don't agree with the rock alteration, I appreciate his candid honestly, and it's unfortunate that , instead of applauding his many excellent efforts, countless hours spent developing awesome new routes, and all his own $ spent on bolts, pins, and anchors........the climbing community here wants to kick him around the block for his few trangressions........while, probably 99 percent of his new routes are done with no monkey business, chipping, or shinanigans.........too bad.....he even does alot of them on the lead ( or at least that is what I have read from him ). I don't believe I know this lad personally....(although I have met many climbers and forget the name with the face...)......I personally want to say " Bad boy" for your chipping, and "Thank you so very much.....I respect and appreciate all your efforts , money spent and hard work done for the climbing community." As a new route developer myself.....I too have been called all sorts of nasty names by people who disagree with MY style of climbing.......My trangressions are not chipping or glueing.........but other "evils" that can make a man's blood boil just thinking about it......many, many people would like to see me personally quartered , casterated, and boiled in oil.....JUST for placing those damn metal bolts in God's nature......It's really easy to piss SOMEONE off ......(Some people think marajuana users belong in jail and girls in bikinis are discusting.....some people think it's OK to stick a hamster up one' arse too.......lots of strange people on our planet.....)....Bottom line;.....chipping and glueing as a policy is lame and "bad"......Grahm Doe the man and the majority of his efforts and climbs.....probably fairly awesome.........as Donini says;.....it's not the man.....(or his many non-controversal routes)......it's the rock alteration that is lame-o........try to chew on ALL the facts before spitting out a half baked condemnation of Grahm Doe........
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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May 23, 2009 - 04:39am PT
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Yawn...
Edit: Gordo you rock
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 23, 2009 - 04:47am PT
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ok, what if you are half way up, you pull on a flake, the flake is fractured, it will hold you, but would be much safer if it were discarded and the new solid edge used to full dyno a rattlesake?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 23, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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what if you knew from special powers that a 11.3 magnitude earthquake along the san andreas fault was going to knock over every national monument we have in a matter of months?
hwy 35 runs along 5 or 6 climbing areas, it also runs directly over the biggest fault on the west coast.
maybe i should tie in?
no, the sandstone will come apart like a house of cards, deep caverns, weakening the rock for years, it's all over,
were gonna die!
ok, which freak organization said that we were all gonna die in an erathquake, and when that didn't happen, it was the comet khoutec coming next to wipe us all out?
first correct answer gets a free hit if window payne.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 23, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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Why is there a double standard with trad free and trad aid?
Why do the biggest trad whiners sound so much like religious zealots?
Sheesh!
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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May 23, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
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The chipping out at Shuteye sucks!!! It sucks, it sucks ,it sucks,... But, Grahm has said he is not chipping anymore. If you can prove otherwise, then do so. Where is he chipping? If Grahm is true to his word, then all this name calling and finger pointing is only going to push him back to the DARK SIDE.
Grahm is a pretty cool guy and super motivated. I wish he would consider other's feelings before he acts sometimes though.
Jeff
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dirhk
Trad climber
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May 23, 2009 - 03:29pm PT
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I'm in agreement with Piton Ron. Wow. Why are chippers the ultimate evil while bolt/rivit ladders are standard?
New el cap aid route: 100 holes.
New el cap free route, 3 holes and 70 glued on holds.
Which is worse and why?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 23, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
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why do i have to wait for big white butt cracks to hook their way up the route?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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May 23, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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No matter how we climb, the rock is changed by our passage.
I'll build new mountains if somehow we crumble the ones we got now.
We are gods!
Gotta get a beer. Have some fun!
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old toad
Trad climber
yosemite, Ca.
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May 23, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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Bacher says it all! Don't come to Yosemite to chip or "enhance" as I will personally chop the route.
Ron Skelton
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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May 23, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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Kinda sad! Driving 5 hours to do some rock-raping. Truly a sorry state of affairs.
Respect the rock! It is a finite resource after all! Chipping holds to make the route go is so damn wrong. There is NO EXCUSE for it ever! Who cares if you can climb 5.13, if you are hacking the rock to do so.
Poor style
Poor ethics
Poor excuses
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 23, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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Man, I have such strong feelings on this subject, really ready to get a good rant on. But the fact is John Bachar and Jim Donini have said it all.
Todd, respectfully I disagree with you. I think it is a mistake to look at chipping / enhancing holds as a point of style.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 23, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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I read this thread in its entirety and have to say that I don't agree with Donini's comment on gluing, that it is never justified. I myself have never glued any holds becasue I don't really put up sport routes. But in the woods near where I live there is a semi manky little known crag. We don't get much good rock around near here, and some first ascenders had to glue a few handholds on some of the best routes to save the holds falling off that enabled these routes to begin with. I think gluing to save holds being pulled on low traffic little known obscure crags it justified and the people that say Not, are the ones that have good climbing at their fingertips, and not hours away like around here.
It really depends on the crag and its location and type of rock. Thats my point. No disrespect to Jim.
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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May 23, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
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What is this thing with hampsters?
Are they like a ropegun or something?
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2009 - 11:11pm PT
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There's been glue here, chiseling, tons of it on El Cap.
You'll all live ......
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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May 24, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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Man, us climbers sure are a bunch of self-righteous pricks....
We drive to the crags on roads blasted from the sides of mountains with cars powered by fuels dug from miles beneath the earth. We climb on nylon gear that was made in factories that create mass amounts of pollution just to cook the ingredients. We clip bolts with carabiners made from minerals that were harvested from huge open pit mines.....
I could go on.
Bottom line is that we climb for the love of it. Every one of us in our own way. Chipping, bolting, rapping....
WHO CARES.
Im going bouldering now.
Jason
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eyeisshut
climber
cA
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May 24, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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"Reporter"
Chipping routes on clean granite!
shut eye ridge!
Chipping and drilling pockets!acton area
Punch bowl.
Big bear areas. out of control!
should be shot.
Those guys cant climb very well so they gotta chop it down to there level! Truly a bunch of chicken s&^losers!
ban them from climbing! Pull up a chair This is just the begining to the opening to the gates of hell for the chipping crews! Bolts will be pulled!
New report Cuiquito dome!
Fully chiped 12b rapbolted sport by no other than Mr Doe!
Why are all his routes 12's I guess he just can get past that # ha ha ha!
THEN 25 MINUTES LATER from Medusa...
Yea bro!
They put up some squezes jobs with chipped holds at the Devils Punchbowl!
I chopped them!
Its about time someone started to Report about these Destroyers of rock.
That good climbers could climb with out the enhancements that these guys do!
Its really sad!
And it makes climbers look really bad with the Land managers!
NEXT DAY...
There tactics are find a cliff!
Set an anchor!
Rap and drill!
Set the bolts!
before even tr the thing!
Then drill and carve the holds
to fill in the dots!
Thats what happend at Acton crag that Loomis developed before Doe even knew what climbing was!
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eyeisshut
climber
cA
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May 24, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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My name is Justin Ross, I like to use my real name when I call someone out. What is your real name Medusa, i mean reporter?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 24, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Studly, I see your point.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 24, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
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You're right, a lot of modern climber climbers don't get it...
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WBraun
climber
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May 24, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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I don't get it either.
Now where's my cold chisel, glue and bolt kit?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 24, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Gotta say that climbers today don't seem to want to explore the miles and miles and miles of untouched rock out there- oops, I forgot, that means that dreadful part of climbing called "the approach." If you limit your climbing to a small area, chipping and gluing, however horrendous, becomes more tempting. Having been a graduate of the "yosemite nursery" but no longer addicted, I am surprised to see there is an apparent paucity of routes even in "The Valley." Everyone on ST talks about the same few routes ad nauseam. Come on ladies and gentlemen: explore, expand your horizons!!!
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 24, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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Jim is correct. There are a vast number of FA's waiting for you.
Even IN Yosemite.
Of course, there IS hiking(arrggh) involved.
Skully edit: Without freaky, so-called "enhancing". sheesh.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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May 24, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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Man, if this is west coast ethics I hope you guys stay away from my climbing area. When did mauling the rock with a chisel start getting referred to as "enhanced holds" or "created slots"??? Is that anything like "enhanced interrogation"?
" know everyone won't agree with my decisions but based on my experience I make the best choices I can." That is the point. ITS NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE! God or whoever you believe in made the rock the way it is so leave it that way. If you can't get up it in it's "natural" then you can't get up it. Why do you have to go fing with it?! To get your name in an FA? Is your ego that big?
I hope these routes are in a sate, national park, WMA or something and somebody finds some way to FINE the jerks taking chisels to rock. Justify it anyway you want. It's WRONG.
I can't lead 5.12. Can I come out to your routes and add a few "enhancements" so I can lead them? Is that ok with you?
Don't come over to WNC chipping holds and thinking you'll get away with it with just a silly ethics debate.
I don't see how any of the old school climbers could defend this behavior. They never brought the rock down. People like Bachar worked hard to "enhance" themselves. To make themselves better climbers. To build skill to match the routes. I've spoken about that many times to the gym climbers I take out climbing. It's the reason I respect them. I couldn't care less who climbed 5.x they took a chisel to.
Shameful
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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May 24, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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who said rules are made to be broken?
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Loomis
climber
*_*
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May 24, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
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The thread dies now.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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May 24, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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Just read Todd Gordons post. I think I just see if from a different perspective. He applauds Gdoe's efforts and says he should be appreciated for the routes he put up with no shinanigans while I say that the guy should take a lesson in this. He seems like an honest guy but his ethics are crap. Maybe it's the lame stunts he pulls on the minority of his routes that ruins the rep of the others. Kinda like a pianist who composes beautifully then goes home and beats the wife. If the guy has the skills then let him stick with the routes he can put up without molesting the rock and I'm sure he will get the respect he seemingly craves.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 24, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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What did she do?.................or not do?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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May 24, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
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Adjust...tweek...lead!
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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May 24, 2009 - 10:55pm PT
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Remeber its the size of the tool that counts.
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WBraun
climber
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May 24, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
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jbar -- "People like Bachar worked hard to "enhance" themselves."
Like the time he used a crowbar to break off the the crux hold on "Thriller"?
Get with it jbar, we're all evil bad boys. Nobody's on the high pulpit.
We're all terrible sinners .....
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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May 24, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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Wbraun - I'm just one of those sick purist. The last of a dying breed I suppose. Well, at least I wouldn't do it. And to think you westies are where it all came from. I guess it's inevitable that the rap bolting and hold chipping will eventually reach here.
You had to go smash my glass house didn't you. No more role modles left. Guess I'll just take my trusty firearm into the nearest national park and shoot something.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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May 24, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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There have been some good comments and things worth considering posted. Of course theres the usual Super Topo drivel but humorous none the less. Todd we never met but I stayed at your house back in the good old days. Thanks for leaving it open while it lasted for climbers. Also you deserve mucho credit for all your routes in Josh thanks for putting up some great lines. I for one enjoyed them.
I know now that “Informer” who started this post is really Medusa. Yes, he actually calls himself Medusa in real life. Your claims about me are way off base.
The real reason for his posts are because he is mad that we are developing the Electro Magnetic wall in Acton. But our troubles run back much further.
Circa 2000 myself and some friends were adding routes to Devils Punch Bowl. A friend of mine without consulting Medusa added a direct finish to one of his routes in Big Wall City. Medusa got pissed and said no one would climb his finish with the new direct one over a fun roof. He said the new finish was an established top rope and made my friend pull his bolts. Then in further retaliation he chopped a bolt on my friends route on the right side of the Attitude Wall because he said it was a squeeze job. Later the bolt went back in and people enjoy having a 5.10 to climb there now.
Mean while I put up a route on the middle of Attitude Wall and glue reinforced a hollow flake at the crux. This also pissed him off. I used glue in bolts which were better than some of the loose expansion bolts in the soft sand stone. Since I already had the glue in hand I thought it was a good idea to reinforce the key hold. Maybe a bad idea but I did it.
Fast forward almost 10 years to the present and Medusa hears that we are putting up routes on Electro Magnetic. This wall has had only one established route, a crack in a muddy corner FA’d I believe by Ron Carson in the 80’s. No activity since except a few bolts way back from the top of the lip for two top ropes. I don’t believe they were ever actually top roped clean because of how much muddy rock came off in my hands while cleaning and the lines of weakness did not lead to where the bolts over the top were. Heres a photo of the wall.
I have bolted two lines on the left side and other friends have added five routes to the right side. Medusa called one friend of mine and threatened to chop all the routes and we were not allowed to put up routest here as they have been looking at it for years yet not actually doing any new routes.
Heres a photo of me FAing Mega Volt 12b. I cleaned off the loose cobbles and pulled off mud flakes until the route could be climbed. I also dug out a pocket that was filled with softer dirt. The only reason I even bother with the crag is because it is the only thing that stays dry when other areas are wet.
Medusa if you chop my routes I will put them up again. Instead of wasting time making less for others to climb why not come out and add a route in your style at the crag? Theres still room for more good routes.
I had a killer day yesterday climbing with good friends in the beautiful sierra. One buddy lead bolted a killer 5.9 face. Another friend finished rap bolting a beautiful tower. We got to climb a gorgeous gear dihedral that’s probably seen less than 10 ascents. I fa’d a new killer face climb. Heres some FA photos and one of the dihedral. As usual they are all natural lines.
I am kinda done defending myself and over the drama. I do what I think is best and look forward to endless new routing. Happy climbing!
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Loomis
climber
*_*
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May 24, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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Grahm, Carson and I discovered EMR. Is the left face from the crack the way it was?
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couchmaster
climber
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May 24, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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I have to agree with Todd. Can't please everyone.
Safe journeys GD, you are wise to walk away now after informing us about yourself. This thread has been informative to me. Old school Kevin Worrel thinks it's OK to glue, and ultra-pure John Bachar (per Werner) crowbared a flake off a climb. I've never glued a hold on, feeling like if you can pull it off because it's lose, you do that, otherwise, leave it alone. But I can appreciate how it came that you were gluing in a glue-in bolt and were right there, with extra glue, looking at the loose hold and a light bulb came on.
I thing we all have to deal with the hand that is dealt us and do our best.
Take care all!
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Loomis
climber
*_*
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May 24, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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Grahm, Comment on EMR Please.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 24, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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bump.....i want to see some more slander from the dipshit that posted this thread.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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May 24, 2009 - 11:49pm PT
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Oops, sorry. I thought I was commenting on a thread about bashing holds out of the rock with a chisel. I don't have have an opinnion on glueing. Haven't given it enough thought as it too isn't done around here, yet.
Edit: I'm all for the climbs that are WAY out there. It's kind of par for the course around here that if you have never been to a route before and don't have someone with you who has you're going to be bushwacking quite a bit and might not find it the first time. Even with good beta.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 24, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
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Kevin, there is a marked difference between using glue to strengthen an existing hold for future parties and gluing on a hold that did not previously exist. In the first case you are giving permanence to an existing natural line. In the second case you are creating a line that did not previously exist in the natural world.
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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May 24, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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How about the stuff at the Gold Wall? What routes got enhanced out there?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 25, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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Kevin, I'll get out your way. Just remember: as a charter member of the medicare climbing club I only use one command, "up rope, I'm not moving."
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Loomis
climber
*_*
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May 25, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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Medusa "reported" about the state of affairs that exist around a few areas. I am surprised to hear what's been going on.
Let's keep it real.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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May 25, 2009 - 02:59am PT
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Kevin & Jim ....Glue is Glue....and in Joshua Tree and Yosemite absolutely illegal!! Bachar removed the ridiculously glue dribbled cheater hold off Thriller. Good for him ! Everyone I know who has rap bolted owns glue......once you cross that line every base tactic becomes palatable.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
the greasewood ghetto
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May 25, 2009 - 04:24am PT
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Bachar removed the ridiculously glue dribbled cheater hold off Thriller.
It's not such a set of ethics perse as more respect for the medium you're working in , and almost spiritual type approach to a physical problem .
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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May 25, 2009 - 05:45am PT
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all our routes will be dust one day...an idea that brings it all into focus for me.
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Richard Burnett
climber
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May 25, 2009 - 06:20am PT
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Trying to justify chipping any thing is just sad. We bolted a line that we could have enhanced a few credit card edges on and made a "killer" (stupid chipped pile) .13. Instead of being retards we showed it to another friend before deciding to pull the bolts or not. well...
http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/hard_new_trad_sport_in_north_carolina/
Just because you think your bad ass does not mean what you think is impossible really is.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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May 25, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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It is really refreshing for someone to post with their real name and post without a bunch of gibberish. Thanks Graham.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
the base of the Shawangunk Ridge
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May 25, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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In the a sport where there tend to be many grey areas...this seems the hardest method of transgression where it is so obvious which approach is correct and which is not.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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Aldude
You fuking lair!!!
Get your facts straight AL! There was no cheater hold. It was the original hold and it was starting to flex a little and all Moffett and Kauk did was put a small amount of glue behind it to save it from eventually breaking in the future.
Ask Chappy, Mark Chapman and Cashner they'll confirm it also even tho there's no real need to confirm.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 25, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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Wow!
A fuking lair.
Thats serious (I think?)
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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I don't tolerate slander like that.
You people can do whatever you like as you make the choices. When Jardine was chiseling I never got on his case about it. Me and Kauk did not agree but we just said, "Well, that's just Ray".
When they Dales Pin Job, I was with them the day before and jokingly told them it will never go unless you pin it out. I laughed after they actually did that. Not that I agreed. But I still thought it was funny.
I still loved those guys. People have free will and I will not interfere with that over some stupid climb.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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I'd like to see more folks speak up to the apparent double standard of aid versus free
(considering how much aid goes free these days)
What should the ethic of altering the rock on aid routes be? There's a lot of gray area to cover (trenching heads versus placing a rivet, enhancing hook moves)
Heck I hear Mescalito could be free anytime now so how far into the future should we be looking when deciding what to leave be for the future.
Cause, back in the day before the day, when the "true" heros were putting up the first routes, they free climbed until they (for reasons real and also imagined) couldn't free anymore, and then they pulled the pins and sometimes bolts and just aided. Lots of "Mixed" routes back then. (would that be better to return to? Were they the original impossible murderers?)
I'm all for having a good ethic on chipping and gluing but put your cards on the table so as not to just follow the crowd. For those who write in pure absolute terms of what climbing is and should never accept....What about aid? What about mixed? What should be saved for the future and why? Sure would have been nice if the Shield had been saved until cam hooks were invented.
I have a friend (well respected) that serious entertains the idea of closing up the crack behind Camp 6 on the Nose with cement so people can't dump their crap in there anymore. That would be the ultimate giant glued job eh? Personally, I'd like to see a lot more condemnation of the kind of desecration where people leave big steaming turds on ledges on classic routes. (already Camp 6 has been spoilt this year)
Is the difference between sport climbing and trad significant in what's allowed.
We humans play a game, make the rules black and white, make the game work and hang our identity on it, and then cheat in our own ways while condemning ways that others cheat, and then go to war.
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 25, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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Asking people to reconcile the double standard is asking conformists to give up their raison d'etre, namely:
"tradition".
The standard excuse of a weak intellect.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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May 25, 2009 - 01:17pm PT
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I live in the area. I don't climb 5.13. I won't climb the routes. I feel that Donini's obsevations are right on. The areas where the routes have been created have a unique wilderness feel that many other climbing areas do not. I do not know how that could have inspired such poor choice of ethics. The influences that created those ethics definetly do not belong in an area, that if left natural will be pristine for generations to come. Furthermore, future climbers will have a area where they can still test themselves at what ever level they choose. Not a level created by someone else. One acomplishment that ruins all chances of a future greater acomplishment is no acomplishment at all.
Patrick
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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May 25, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
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Medusa, have you forgotten that mess of a glue job you did at Tick Rock? Spilled glue is everywhere. And that isn't even a route you put up. There is added bolts and moved anchors there as well, and I know you did some, if not all, of that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think those were your routes to glue and retro bolt on.
I'll be happy to edit this if I'm wrong.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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May 25, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Eat sh#t Werner....when you touched that hold you were touching glue....it's illegal for good reason. What a tool - all law abiding when it suits you.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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May 25, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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This would be a good time to break out the single malts.....
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 25, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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Or the boxing gloves......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Since we're ready to fight about concepts, how about getting super Taliban and chopping off the fingers of people who glue and chip and crowbar.
You can still crank hard after the first offense. Look at Tommy!
Peace
Karl
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 25, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
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Seems like a lot of the glue on this post is being snorted.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 25, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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Looks like I picked the WRONG day to quit sniffin' glue.......
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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May 25, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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time to revive the super talko boxing tourney?
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tiki-jer
Trad climber
fresno/clovis
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May 26, 2009 - 09:32am PT
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Wow! Was gone since Friday(Shuteye).
Had alot of catching up to do.
What a thread.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 26, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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JR, anything I have posted is about the general subject of gluing/chipping and has nothing to do with the situation in your area. I am unfamiliar with your area and certainly take anything I see posted on ST with a grain of salt. I think the subject of gluing/chipping warrants discussion on this forum, but I feel that the ad hominem element in this thread is unfortunate and counter productive.
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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May 26, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
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Save the drama fo' yo' mama.
Down with chipping! I hate it! And chippers! I don't care what rationalization you would give it. It don't fly in my book, ESPECIALLY in an amazing place like shuteye. It f*#king sickens me, to tell you the truth.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 26, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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Trivia: who glued on the Lightning Bolt hold on Midnight Lightning?
aldud: hahahaha! the heat getting to you or what?
Aldude: Everyone I know who has rap bolted owns glue
that there is prime bullshiit and hyperbole.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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May 26, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
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"Every basic tactic becomes palatable"....including selective memory. I think its time to palate a bit of Oban 18
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 26, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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DK: What is OBAN 18???? Is it like PC 17 or something?
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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May 26, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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West Highland single malt scotch...drug of choice as of late
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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May 26, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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I prefer an Islay malt whilst ruminating on chipping and glueing.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 26, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
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WB - It wasn't Thriller, it was the problem to the left.
There was so much glue you weren't even grabbing the hold - just glue.
Guess what? I still have the hold so if you're ever interested you can see for yourself.
BTW - I used my nail clipper file thing to pry the hold off, not a crowbar.
Just for the record, jb
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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May 26, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
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that oban is smoooooth- alittle lubricant is in order to smooooooth out the tension on this thread!
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GDavis
Trad climber
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May 26, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Lets play nice now... and about that boxing tournament....
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 26, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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are we really going to revisit the gluing and chipping battles of the 1980s?
i don't see a lot of it on sierra boulders. is this really an on-going issue? is there currently an outbreak of chipping on good granite that i've missed someplace?
i see stacks of "sculpting" on various chunks of sport choss that no one would climb on otherwise. but that doesn't seem to be what's at issue.
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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May 26, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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still think thumb-wrestling is the true test of man(woman)-hood. Although I'd hate to (thumb) tangel with those hand stacking OW gurus!
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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May 26, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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I usually run the Oban when chipping but for glueing I like the Laphroaig. If I'm chipping AND glueing I 'm on Murray McDavid Mortlach.( Wish I knew how to post them fancy pictures.)
But hey, this is a pretty cool site if you're into the whiskey:
http://www.lawhiskeysociety.com/index.php[/url]
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Back of beyond
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May 27, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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oh goody! such a glove padded slug fest!
Can I be a part? Inadvertently, i guess. I recently purchased two of Grahm's old drill motors, and have used them to great effect. He was most helpful in setting me up for success. I can vouch for his character as far as this transaction goes. As complete strangers, he followed thru on his commitment to send me the articles we discussed here on the forum and via email. He even made himself available over the phone.
It would appear to me, from what I've seen posted here and my own personal experience with him, that Grahm is an upstanding individual.
And I can define that further. It is not enough to conform to a certain standard. As human beings, we need to push boundaries, and react in a positive manner to the results of our explorations. This is how we evolve as individuals, cultures, and societies at large. Sounds to me as if Grahm fits well within my definition of an upstanding individual.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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May 27, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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Laphroaig is a bit to briny and peaty for me, what with such tame subject matter. I like to save that stuff for when it gets real entertaining.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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May 27, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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These 'iron ways' in the Alps (pics & story) give a surprising
look into climbing fast and light.
http://www.exo.net/~pauld/adventures/dolomites2006/dolomites2006.htm
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jstan
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 03:12pm PT
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Chippers and gluers are wussies.
A friend of mine was a real honest to god gluer. This boulder problem was driving him nuts. So he stood by the boulder with his hand up on the hold waiting for the epoxy to set. People came along and he made idle conversation to pass the time. He said it was all to no avail as the epoxy just tore the skin off his fingers.
With that kind of gluing at least you have some skin in the game. Whether you make the move or not, you still lose the skin.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 27, 2009 - 04:07pm PT
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Sorry for the thread drift away from chest thumping and bashing gluers, but I have been gluing the shyte out of some man-made structures, placing plastic holds and rock holds, over the last 4 years, and tried a lot of different types of glue. None of them last. they all break down in the sun and due to weather conditions, and eventually they all fail in a relatively short time if the holds are used often enough.
So, when reaching for the glue, do those folks realize they are only adding a short time to the life of the hold? Its still gonna come off...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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May 27, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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Obviously, yer knott using PC-7...
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 27, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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Knott correct. PC-7 is one of my favorites, but it still breaks down like all the others.
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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Ah, bah humbug!
One must use the absolute platform of glue to last forever.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 27, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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Absolute platform of glue? please advise...
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
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It is not a myth .....
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jstan
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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But, apparently, it is a secret.
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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fattrad -- " ....save the problem for future generations."
That's what the previous administration did and you still support them.
Gotcha ....
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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May 27, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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I'll barf on him at facelift.
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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May 27, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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I really don't know what I would do meeting Cheney face to face after he has F@#ked us so bad and sent so many to their deaths (on both sides)just for HIS AGENDA!The temptation to bash his skull in might be to much.A good trundel should be in order. He'll probably be surrounded by TOOLS!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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May 27, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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Stain-y...as in what's left of him after a big rock trundle.
Or
Brainy
Grainy
Janey
Veiny
Zany
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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May 27, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
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Is Graham Doe the Mark Spencer of the new millennium?
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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May 27, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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Hey, can't we get back to the scotch? This thread was starting to go somewhere.
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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May 27, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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Until fathead ruined it with self-important fantasy name-dropping hero worship...
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tiki-jer
Trad climber
fresno/clovis
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May 27, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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Correct Grammar Please!!
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squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
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May 27, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
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How about using a saw to cut down a tree near the bottom of a route because you fall into it?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
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Done that.
Not good.
Ain't never gonna do it again.
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jstan
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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No one should ever believe their simple amusement trumps the intentions of the parties who pay taxes every year to support the land.
Surely this one rule has to exist?
Would it not exist if the shoe were on the other foot?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 27, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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Who cares what AlDude thinks or says or does?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 28, 2009 - 02:40am PT
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I care what AlDude has to say;....he's a climber, a musician, and my friend;.....sure;...he likes to play
Devil's advocate, he likes to stir the pot, and he likes to " debate" climbing ideals and styles.....he does FA's and tries to do them in good style........I often disagree with him over all sorts of things...but I still listen and banter in a friendly and open manner......he's The Dude.....what else can I say?.......and Dude-like behavior and Dude-like opinions are expected and usually delivered......he's contributed alot to the climbing community and the music scene too.......let me repeat;....he's The Dude........
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 26, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
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Anti-chipping bump.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jul 27, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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Nicely bumped you guys, I started out thinking this was an extension of the recent shuteye thread, but its more than two years old. Same guy, still at it. SSDD
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 28, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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The chipping, bolting, aggressive cleaning tactics, and vegetation damage in Joshua Tree's wilderness has not gone unnoticed by the park service.
For anyone looking to put a new route up in JT, please think twice - you are permanently altering the rock and impacting the area around the crag. There are already over 8,000 established routes here - get to know the style and ethics of JT before imposing your own.
If you have any questions about the rules and regulations regarding fixed anchors and bolts in Joshua Tree National Park, please email me, come to Climbers Coffee or check the website.
http://www.nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/climbing.htm
JT Climbing Ranger
Bernadette
bernadette_regan@nps.gov
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Synchronicity
Trad climber
British Columbia, Canada
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As was posted upthread, I think there's a big difference between enhancing holds in good quality rock in a popular area, and agressive cleaning shitty rock in an unpopular area.
I don't do a lot of FA's around here, but god forbid you all eve see the stuff we do to our shattered basalt. I don't glue any holds on ever but for damn certain I'll clean the heck out of boulder problems and routes usually involving large killer flakes. The rock quality is so poor at times you'd be taking death falls or dropping rock on your belayer (and yes I've seen it happen and even had it take chunks out of my helmet).
To add holds to any route is poor style, but to clean off stuff that wouldn't last a day (mostly just comes off with nut tool) is ok at least in my area.
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inyoupyos
climber
California
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The message remains clear: minimize our impacts, police ourselves discreetly, or else risk losing our priviledges and blow it for everyone.
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jstan
climber
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Is anyone able to provide a list of the areas in which there has been active gluing and chipping? Everyone would be interested in knowing this.
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natureischaos
Boulder climber
Yosemite
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May 23, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
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So Grahms been bolting out at Jackass Rocks, wonder what his ethics have been recently, I read something on his fb page about digging out a terrace? Dus he have ocd or is he trying to conquer nature. He likes to keep his "new areas" secret so others can't send his projects. I don't see the need to clean a terrace I mean if I did that on some Yosemite classic routes I'd be burned at the stake! Just because "the balls" are out side the park doesn't mean he has the right to disturb the progress of nature just so he can have a gory day. Just my thoughts, but who am I to Judge?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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May 23, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
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Yup. These old classics get hacked with the new purge code.
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