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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 7, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Yo didn't read what I said - that awareness is not contingent on "content," or the mind's interaction with people, places or things, nor yet with thoughts. Ergo, matter does in fact NOT require an interaction to be "aware,' since it IS aware to begin with.


First, what makes you think so? I'm not doubting that you believe this, I'm just curious how you came to it. This sounds a little like, "Awareness is what the meant brain does," a non-answer that would never fly if applied to anything. Purple Haze is what a guitar does, and all that. This is, of course, folly - we can easily see why.

But I'd be interested in hearing more about the pure awareness you must have experienced to actually know that content was not needed. Again. people speculate wildly on this thread so if you have actual experiences in this regards, I'm interested in hearing all about them.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Good luck finding an atheist willing to strap a bomb to his or her back, or fly a plane into a building...."


Perhaps, but if you look not too far back into history and you will find a few atheists willing to establish freedom-destroying totalitarian states based upon mass imprisonment and murder.

...noted beer expert

Maybe too much of a beer expert, "noted" or otherwise.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2013 - 08:41pm PT

If you have no interest (judged by your effort, what you do, not by what you say) in that direction, fine. But leave off with your talk about being "convinced," while refusing to go where you might learn otherwise. That's called a "forked tongue" in any language.

This really reminds me of most all of the smarty pants around here. Always talk'in smack about followers of Christ without ever experiencing His promises. I've read the origins of species, a couple of times. What experience does it have to offer? Besides the opportunity to side in opinion. If I want to see the same species of bird with a different beak. I don't need to go to the Gallopio's. I can see that right here in the desert with the Hummingbirds. Big deal?
So what good does it do to read a bunch of theoretical books if there's no experience to be had? On the other hand, the bible is all about experience. The first half is all about examples of mans experience ranging from slave to King. And it provides equations to the outcomes
from mans desires. And the second half invites the reader to actively participate in a intimate
relationship with the Creator of the universe. The One that loves and knows you better than your own parents. The One that can hear ur thoughts and can answer your prayers by directing your path of experience. When simply trusting and obeying The Lord Jesus, He will
direct your path of experience. Changing a wrong mind to right, and a black heart to white.
It's ALL about experience that's builds faith.

Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 7, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
"Christian: One who follows the teachings of Christ insofar as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin."
"Clergyman: A man who undertakes the management of our spiritual affairs as a method of bettering his temporal ones."
"Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does."
"Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy."
"Rack: An argumentative implement formerly much used in persuading devotees of a false faith to embrace the living truth."
"Religion: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable."
"Scriptures: The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."

Ambrose Bierce
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 7, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
A good discussion of various sources used in the compilation and correction of the bible.
Yet it ends with this:
The Children of Adam had been partying and mating with devils then, and they are partying and mating with devils today. Examining other scriptures, it is the evil who shall be taken out of the world, and not the good, who shall forever be preserved.
The Problem With Genesis 6:1-4
William Finck
http://christogenea.org/Gen614

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2013 - 09:15pm PT

Like any politician. Promises promises. No delivery.

I can empathize with ur view of men in power. But in no ways is the Creator of the universe bending in His word! It is by His word that this planet is perfect for the human being to inhabit.
And all of His promises provided in the bible are ours to petition. I have personally experienced and witnessed many times over. Thus my faith is Great! And I am definitely NOT one to move on hearsay!
sullly

Trad climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#320200
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 7, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
"Why assume that when a carbon/nitrogen/oxygen based brain sends electrical signals across itself that it creates "consciousness," but when a silicon/copper/silver based computer chip does virtually the same thing, it doesn't result in consciousness?"

This was an interesting observation we all, myself included, have do-se-doed around handsomely. This is an especially curious question if we are cribbing a model from electronics and/or engineering. The real rub might be in believing that consciousness works like everything else in the galaxy: physical processes yield physical results. Except consciousness itself is not physical in any standard way. What's physical is the electro-chem processes, and calling them consciousness itself is just so much tap dancing if we're honest about it.

These are interesting questions rarely confronted at the level of the question, but often and eagerly dragged into the arena of other non or partial answers. Even the "complexity argument" cowers before this one. Imagine the complexity of electro-chemical processes coming down on Venus or Mercury yet we don't suspect they are conscious. AI has already claimed we need not have a "living" or bio unit to "create" consciousness so that argument is out - if we believe the AI folk.

Something to ponder.

JL

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
malemute
Do you even have any understanding in ur cut n pastes?
Besides all the misconstrued, taken out of text rants. You should have some knowledge of the whole bible in order to critique a certain passage. Some people quote" the root of all evil is money". But that's far from the root. The root is lust. All of the Ten Commandments have to do with controlling mans lust. It's mans self seeking lust for personal pleasure is what's an abomination to the family and God! And sexual lust by the unwed has always been the number one reason for weakness and for falling from Holyness. Take a look around today,
most of the problems and evils all carry roots in sexual lust. In every town. Every city. Every nation. Bar none! And this is what Gen. 6 is concerning. God set in motion a plan and man rebelled. How would you like it if your child went so far against what you taught? What would you do?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
catholic censorship of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin:

1939 : Rome banned his work L’Énergie humaine.

1941 : de Chardin submitted to Rome his most important work, Le Phénomène humain.

1947 : Rome forbade him to write or teach on philosophical subjects.

1948 : de Chardin was called to Rome by the Superior General of the Jesuits who hoped to acquire permission from the Holy See for the publication of his most important work Le Phénomène humain. But the prohibition to publish it issued in 1944, was again renewed. Teilhard was also forbidden to take a teaching post in the College de France.

1949 : Permission to publish Le Groupe Zoologique was refused.

1950: de Chardin was named to the French Academy of Sciences.

1955 : de Chardin was forbidden by his Superiors to attend the “International Congress of Paleontology”.

1957 : The Supreme Authority of the Holy Office, in a decree dated 15 November 1957, forbade the works of de Chardin to be retained in libraries, including those of religious institutes. His books were not to be sold in Catholic bookshops and were not to be translated in other languages.

1958 : In April of this year, all Jesuit publications in Spain (“Razón y Fe”, “Sal Terrae”, “Estudios de Deusto”) etc., carried a notice from the Spanish Provincial of the Jesuits, that de Chardin’s works had been published in Spanish without previous ecclesiastical examination and in defiance of the decrees of the Holy See.

1962 : A decree of the Holy Office dated 30 June, under the authority of Pope John XXIII warned that “. . . it is obvious that in philosophical and theological matters, the said works (de Chardin’s) are replete with ambiguities or rather with serious errors which offend Catholic doctrine. That is why ... the Rev. Fathers of the Holy Office urge all Ordinaries, Superiors, and Rectors ... to effectively protect, especially the minds of the young, against the dangers of the works of Fr. Teilhard de Chardin and his followers”. (AAS, 6 Aug 1962).

1963 : The Vicariate of Rome (a diocese ruled in the name of Pope Paul VI by his Cardinal Vicar) in a decree dated 30 September, required that Catholic booksellers in Rome should withdraw from circulation the works of de Chardin, together with those books which favour his erroneous doctrines. The text of this document was published in daily L’Aurore of Paris, dated 2 Oct 1963, and was reproduced in Nouvelles de Chretiente, l0 October 1963, p. 35.

However, in recent decades, largely due to the writings and speeches of Pope Benedict XVI and Cardinal Henri de Lubac, Teilhard's de Chardin's ideas have become incorporated as part of mainstream Catholic theology. Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi said in July 2009: “By now, no one would dream of saying that [Teilhard] is a heterodox author who shouldn’t be studied”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
Enjoy!

Rob Skiba puts it all together in a way that is very easy to understand and draws from many great resources. He says what I've been saying only better ...


Mt. Hermon (הר חרמון): Winter Skiing on Mt. Hermon, Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp6A7n1KZAg




Mythology and the Coming Great Deception (Rob Skiba) Full Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsdgRxvB_jE







The Mount Hermon Roswell Connection (Rob Skiba) Full Movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOECn1ZAWu0&list=TL5b6gEFaeog4


QITNL

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
WARNING - SARCASM AHEAD!!!!



sullly

Trad climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
Music of the Spheres: same delio, different century.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#320202

Great Chain of Being: same delio, different century.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#320203
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
"The very need for a thing called 'apologetics' is example of the weakness of the theistic argument. 'God' always needs apologies, rationalizations, explanations, equivocations, excuses."
Mark K. Bilbo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics
WBraun

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
^^^^ This stupid dog Malemute has rabies now ^^^^^

He's foaming at the keyboard.

Insane ......
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
my one and only post to this thread:

what a stupid, uninteresting, shitty thread that inexplicably surfaces to the top of a climbing forum

like a dog turd in a Canoga Park swimming pool.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect
1 Peter 3:15 (English Standard Version)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
I'm not insisting anything, I'm just saying that you cannot rule out an empirical explanation of consciousness, that's all... and even when we obtain it, you won't be impressed, and it won't answer the questions you have...

it's not circular, it's just a way of looking at things. You look at things quite differently, sullly looks at things even more differently... so what?

Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
"Men despise religion; they hate it and fear it is true. To remedy this, we must begin by showing that religion is not contrary to reason; that it is venerable, to inspire respect for it; then we must make it lovable, to make good men hope it is true; finally, we must prove it is true."
Blaise Pascal
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
BTW what does the Miller-Urey experiment have to do with anything?
+
I hope before I die I can gain the intelligence you'all posses so as to understand that all life came to be by chance
= answer. Got it now?


I've read the origins of species, a couple of times.
Uh, sure....
If I want to see the same species of bird with a different beak. I don't need to go to the Gallopio's.

What experience does it have to offer?

The ability to understand and be amazed at the adaptability and tenaciousness of life. To more fully understand the interdependent processes of the animate and inanimate. To realize that we are just a fleck of dust in this unimaginably immense universe. To be freed from the chains of superstition and ignorance that man has shackled himself with in the form of religious dictums.
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