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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
basic ingredients + energy> amino acids

Is the the only experimental product of the Miller-Urey experiment you listed.

It does not prove that life arose by chance , or independent of chance, or by design.
It merely concludes that if you simulate what was "thought " to be the primordial conditions on Earth roughly 3 billion years ago you get organic constituents from inorganic precursors.

Actually you don't even need the precise conditions Miller-Urey simulated since amino acids have also been discovered within meteorites.

As regards the Miller-Urey experiment your flow chart was largely a waste of time, except as a hypothesis and a leap of faith.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
It does not prove that life arose by chance , or independent of chance, or by design... waste of time, except as a hypothesis...

Please, stop. You're an embarrassment.

If you're interested in these subjects, take the courses.

.....

P.S.

You, too, go-b. Prove to the world you're not as bronze-age minded as a billion-plus fundamentalist Muslims.

I mean, seriously, how can you be proud of the fact that your thinking in religion or theology is no more advanced than that of these billion-plus fundamentalist Muslims? or their ancient ME ancestors?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
If you're interested in these subjects, take the courses.

Make your argument to refute anything I have asserted about the Miller-Urey experiment .

Put it in your own words---for a change.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
I wouldn't argue with you any more than go-b or blu - you're a waste of time.

.....

For the more discriminating, who follow the frequent dust-ups between science and the humanities, you might enjoy...

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114548/leon-wieseltier-responds-steven-pinkers-scientism

Note that this piece might have some talking points for Largo, Sullly.

It follows a great article Steven Pinker wrote same magazine a few weeks earlier...

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities


It's all, shall we say, graduate level, more or less. ;)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
^^^^^
Please, stop. You're an embarrassment.

If you're interested in these subjects, go to church.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
I wouldn't argue with you any more than gob or blu - you're a waste of time.

You can't argue with me because in this case you have no argument .

It's not the guys you're playing with , you just don't have the ante for this pot, or the guts and skill to run a bluff.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Where'd the amino acids come from?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Miller's experiment was therefore a remarkable success at synthesizing complex organic molecules from simpler chemicals,

Yes it was for its time, quite a sensation in 1953. Remember, a few decades later amino acids were discovered in meteorites.
Had they made the meteorite discovery before Miller-Urey that experiment probably would have only been notable for its hypothetical simulation of early conditions on Earth., if they had decided to conduct it at all.

Where'd the amino acids come from?

In the M-U experiment they came from water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
The real challenge is that human experience is unlike any other known "thing" on the universe.

Is it?
-

Expand human experience to self-conscious ( a spectrum) experience by any creature. Then tell us how said experience is like something else non-experiential, in any way shape or form.

JL
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Interesting shite follows. Seems scientists - bio-chemists in this instance - are anything but in accord per the dream of "biogenesis."

"Miller Urey, while appearing to support spontaneous biogenesis, in actuality indicates the reverse. The model of the atmosphere was incorrect, the Oceanic "primordial soup" has never been shown to exist, the experiment itself was rigged for the production of organic molecules, and the published results were skewed by omitting some of the results.

"The atmosphere of ancient Earth, according to Miller-Urey, was composed of Methane, Ammonia, and Water (with traces of Hydrogen.) This atmosphere is by no means the actual ancient Earth atmosphere: there are at least two other atmospheres that are considered, but are often discluded because of much lower yield of organic molecules. The atmosphere is also thought to have been Carbon Dioxide and Water, or Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen, both of which are far less reductive, hence were not put to the Miller-Urey experiment.

R.C. Dowen has said:

"Now, for the first time in 30 years, the widely accepted recipe for the primordial soup is changing from one rich in hydrogen- composed primarily of methane and ammonia- to a Hydrogen-poor atmosphere similar to today's sans (minus) the Oxygen.

"No geological or geochemical evidence collected in the last 30 years favors a strongly reducing atmosphere....Only the success of the laboratory experiments recommends it.

"Scientists are having to rethink some of their assumptions. Chemists liked the old reducing atmosphere, for it was conductive to evolutionary experiments.

Another flaw in the atmosphere is that all exclude oxygen gas. Often Oxygen production is only produced by photosynthesis, but this is really an oversimplification. Oxygen has been known since the 60's to be produced at high altitudes with the effect of ultraviolet light on water in a process known as photolysis. R.T. Brinkman has calculated the bare minimum amount of free oxygen in the atmosphere and has concluded that Earth has always had at least a 5% Oxygen gas atmosphere. Other scientists, who are willing to let uniformitarianism fall by the wayside, compute levels ranging anywhere from 10 to the -1 to 10 to the -15, more or less evenly distributed throughout.

Now what does a disagreement of 14 powers of ten suggest? It suggests that these folks haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

All this does not consider the various "organic" chemicals that were produced by Miller-Urey that impede life. Among the most prevalent of precursor molecules of monomer synthesis is HCN. While HCN is often attributed with much chemical synthesis, such as the amine of amino acids, its mere presence would be fatal to any precursor metabolisms because of cyanide's overkill reductive powers. In short, the monomers would have to form, then all of the HCN decompose to an extremely low level (parts per trillion at least) while still retaining all of the monomers, then and only then could a primitive life form develop.

"If there ever was a primitive soup, then we would expect to find at least somewhere on this planet either massive sediments containing enormous amounts of the various nitrogenous organic compounds, amino acids, purines, pyrimidines, and the like, or alternatively in much-metamorphosed sediments we should find vast amounts of nitrogenous cokes. In fact no such materials have been found anywhere on earth.

"In the end, while experiments like Miller-Urey may have interesting results, they prove nothing if not linked to physical evidence from atmospheric studies or geochemistry. Primordial soup producing life is a myth that makes the Biblical Flood look docile and credible in comparison.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
The above arguments and criticisms have swirled around the MU experiment since 1953. That is precisely why I referred to the MU simulation of primordial earth as " hypothetical" in my earlier post.

These criticisms have led many to offer the alternative theory that amino acids were delivered to Earth by meteorites and thus may have originated life.
In any case, the M- U experiment still stands as a rough approximation of conditions on Earth 3-4 billion years ago and that such approximate conditions can produce organic constituents from elemental precursors.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
Where'd the water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen come from?

I'm curious how science explains something borne from nothing.
dougs510

Social climber
down south
Sep 8, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi

That being said, I am a true believer, I would love to share my personal experiences with anyone. It's too much to cover here, and I'm no bible thumper, but, for me, the Truth is clear. I have friends who are great people and are not Christians, and I know Christians who aren't that good, but that goes for any institution in existence. It is simply the way humans behave.

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Sep 8, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
Where'd the water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen come from?


volcanoes!!!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Dougs510
^^^ Right On Brother!
Thank You for sharing

God Is Good! AllTheTime!




Edit: post number one777. That's gotta mean someth'in ?
Scientificlly at least ˇ
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
They wouldn't recognize these authors or the value of a humanities education if it bit them in the ass.

perhaps it is a wasp that does sting...
why do you have to make the distinction, many scientists see the value in a humanities education, even though they pursued another course... it is not so hard a stretch.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Largo always is asking how we can recreate what we perceive to be "sentience" mechanically... of course it begs the question what is "sentience?" which is easier to answer, perhaps, than the question what is "consciousness?"... to which no one has answered...

yet I would say we do not have either alone... but I've been saying that a lot....

the we have this "Turing test" like demonstration from the "entertainment" industry (aka gambling)


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/magazine/poker-computer.html

They will be placed alongside the pure numbers-crunchers, indifferent to the gambler. But poker is a game of skill and intuition, of bluffs and traps. The familiar adage is that in poker, you play the player, not the cards. This machine does that, responding to opponents’ moves and pursuing optimal strategies. But to compete at the highest levels and beat the best human players, the approach must be impeccable. Gregg Giuffria, whose company, G2 Game Design, developed Texas Hold ‘Em Heads Up Poker, was testing a prototype of the program in his Las Vegas office when he thought he detected a flaw. When he played passively until a hand’s very last card was dealt and then suddenly made a bet, the program folded rather than match his bet and risk losing more money. “I called in all my employees and told them that there’s a problem,” he says. The software seemed to play in an easily exploitable pattern. “Then I played 200 more hands, and he never did anything like that again. That was the point when we nicknamed him Little Bastard.”

what do you want to bet that people will loose a whole lot of money thinking they have "a system" to beat this piece of work...

does it "know" what it's doing?

what is the shark thinking just before it takes a big bite out of that tasty looking shadow on the surface?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
origins of life?
abiotic precursors?

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/30/1303904110.full.pdf

http://phys.org/news/2013-06-life-earth-shockingly-world.html

Chaz... one one word: nucleosynthesis...
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
why do you have to make the distinction, many scientists see the value in a humanities education, even though they pursued another course... it is not so hard a stretch.

I think that sting was directed at:

...certain sausages here..

"here" being this thread.
And not scientist in general.
I could be wrong.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
last time I looked I had a "sausage"
and I'm a scientists too...
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