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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Can't read all of these last two pages tonight I don't have time. But Tony, I respect you mucho. So, please tell me exactly your definition of religion. I only ask this because my best friend, jesus, disclaimed the religion of his heritage and time.
If people read Matthew Chapters 5,6 and 7 and lived it our whole world would change for the better.
I rarely enter these threads of religion and politics but thought I'd drop by tonight. I don't think everyone hates the real jesus, just the false christianity. Jess sayin' I don't have a lasso around the truth. But then has the truth ever been lassoed? Aren't we all learning, I hope, loving and exploring life and all it holds for each of us?
Peace, Joy and Love on a beautiful Monday night. lynnie
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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The Bible and the Koran are hardly a beacons of morality.
That's not the claim. The moral of the OT is the 10 commandments. The moral of the NT, and the lesson Jesus taught is to love ur brother as thyself. No one can live by the big 10. And no one can keep hold of any morals. That's what the whole bible and our own experiences teaches us. That's why God sent Jesus, to pick us up when we fall.
Oh and what about those Japanese Zeros. They where unreligous suiciders.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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By any love and respect for human dignity measure of morality, certainly one that embraces confirmation by weight of evidence over ruling blind faith in unsubstantiated doctrine enforced by complete deference to untestable authority, queers are no more or no less a moral type of people than the rest of us.... kind of like the european Jews of 1930. We know that as fact not blind doctrinal faith, just as at one time we suddenly discovered that in fact the world was round not flat.
Careful. You are looking down it to the hole that is Godwin.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Bruce I respect ur arguments, but I'm still learning too.
One thing, morals only arise when there are two are more people. So firstly I only need to be right to what pertains to the immediate me. That means not going against my conscious. which is the summation of all my reasoning through what I've seen and experienced. What's ok for me might not be ok for you. And visa versa. So by whose mold should we form these morals?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I wouldn't be surprised to learn that was the intent, rather than as a club of dominance and submission.
You know ur not that far off.. I seeing now how materialist(compared to spiritualist) get blinded by the rules and laws and fear punishment. You really should read the NT. the whole reason for Jesus was to do away with the laws. Man cannot be perfect and is not good. Atleast in Gods eyes. And not that we shouldn't try to be the best we can be. The only law Jesus said you must follow is to love your brother as yourself! Think about that. Could you ever tell your brother to f*#k off for ever because you didn't agree on something? Or disown him for taking 50 bucks out of ur wallet. You might get pissed, but if rationalized with an apology would you forgive him. And if he loved you like a brother he prolly wouldn't do that in The first place. God will forgive us for anything and we should do the same to each other. What you do for the least, is the most you can do for God. Meaning, when help someone that isn't as fortunate as you, you are acting like God. That's not jus giving someone money, it's giving advice, knowledge, guidance, discipline,etc. I think brotherly love is the only moral we need.
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stuv
climber
NL
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I'm fine if other people are practicing christians and can find strength in it or whatever, just don't come to my door to talk to me about it and don't try and teach any of it in public schools. That doesn't seem to resonate much, though.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies. It can't be said any clearer than that. This IS the reason faith is a conversation stopper.
TY
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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What about discussing ones hopes and dreams?
The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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"The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude."
All that and more can be pursued without subscribing to a imaginary diety. What I'm asking you to entertain is that there is nothing we need to believe on insufficient evidence in order to have deeply ethical and spiritual lives.
TY
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude.
When I attempt to think beyond myself, I seek to understand the minds of other people, and their potential beliefs that there is not a creator or that there are multiple creators, or that their creator may not be clothed in Christianity.
"Every mind belongs to God," within the context of believing your own version of God, is basically a declaration of war. It is a mandate that others peacefully accept your wisdom and way of thinking, or else.... And history shows us many times over what comprises the "or else" part.
I mostly agree with TYeary... faith may not stop a conversation exactly, but it does prevent one from changing position based on the conversation. At best, it can lead to an understanding of each other's perspective with no movement of one's own position. But the same can be said for Reason. One who is steeped in Reason and hears a Faith-based argument is quite unlikely to change position based on the conversation. So Faith and Reason are two orthogonal measures, different dimensions, completely non-exchangeable. If you want to persuade someone who values one of those more than the other, then that dimension is the only means of accomplishing the goal.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sarah Palin has attitude.
What else has she got?
the eternal respect and gratitude of the Republican Base
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Sanskara
climber
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Class, that's what she has got.
That's one classy woman that Palin.
Brains I forgot brains!
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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“The punishment of every disordered mind is its own disorder.”
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jstan
climber
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When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies. It can't be said any clearer than that. This IS the reason faith is a conversation stopper.
TY
Well said.
If people did not get something out of fabricating a belief system, they would not. The net costs are difficult for a person to calculate because the benefits are personal, but liabilities are cultural.
My impression is the Abrahamic cults have a level of insanity rather different from other belief systems. We may be laboring under this because one person, Herod, was both brilliant and quite simply insane. So it is, 2000 years later, we have this baggage threatening our survival.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Class, that's what she has got.
That's one classy woman that Palin.
Brains I forgot brains!
Such sarcasm! (You were being sarcastic, weren't you???)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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One thing, morals only arise when there are two are more people.
I totally disagree.
I think that morality, like character, is best defined by what you do when you think no one is looking.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nice post Nut!
"Every mind belongs to God," within the context of believing your own version of God, is basically a declaration of war. It is a mandate that others peacefully accept your wisdom and way of thinking, or else.... And history shows us many times over what comprises the "or else" part.
I concede to ur point. If you don't believe in a Creator, maybe you think you and your mind are a product without intention? Or maybe you have some other enlightenment? My point was merely a creative inspired impulse based on personal experience. You know, freedom of speech. I still don't understand how people can wage war over talk? Oh yea, hate.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Apr 27, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
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Anybody watching Orphan Black?
Science fiction. Human cloning. Moral implications.
They're portraying Christians as crazy batshit freaks.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 27, 2014 - 02:21pm PT
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^^^ Sorry Fruity
We're not so much into science fiction as you seem to be.
We're into what's REAL LIFE!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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http://www.nationalturk.com/en/1500-year-old-syriac-bible-found-in-ankara-turkey-16624
1500 year-old ‘ Syriac ‘ Bible found in Ankara, Turkey : Vatican in shock !
Ancient Bible in Aramaic dialected Syriac rediscovered in Turkey
The relic was ‘rediscovered’ in the depositum of Ankaran Justice Palace, the ancient version of bible is believed to be written in Syriac, a dialect of the native language of Jesus.
Ankara / Turkey – The bible was already in custody of Turkish authorities after having been seized in 2000 in an operation in Mediterranean area in Turkey. The gang of smugglers had been charged with smuggling antiquities, illegal excavations and the possession of explosives and went to trial. Turkish police testified in a court hearing they believe the manuscript in the bible could be about 1500 to 2000 years old.After waiting eight years in Ankara the ancient bible is being transferred to the Ankaran Ethnography Museum with a police escort.
Ancient Bible will be shown in Ankaran Ethnography Museum
The bible, whose copies are valued around 3-4 Mil. Dollars had been transferred to Ankara for safety reasons, since no owners of the ancient relic could be found.
The manuscript carries excerpts of the Bible written in gold lettering on leather and loosely strung together, with lines of Syriac script with Aramaic dialect. Turkish authorities express the bible is a cultural asset and should be protected for being worthy of a museum.
Ancient Bible in Aramaic dialected Syriac rediscovered in Turkey
Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic – the native language of Jesus – once spoken across much of the Middle East and Central Asia. It is used wherever there are Syrian Christians and still survives in the Syrian Orthodox Church in India and a village in the vicinity of Syrian capital Damascus. Aramaic is also still used in religious rituals of Maronite Christians in Cyprus.
Experts were however divided over the provenance of the manuscript, and whether it was an original, which would render it priceless, or a fake. Other questions surround the discovery of the ancient bible, whether the smugglers had had other copies of the relic or had smuggled them from Turkey.
Vatican eyes the faith of the ancient relic
The Vatican reportedly placed an official request to examine the scripture, which was written on pages made of animal hide in the Aramaic language using the Syriac alphabet.
The copy of the ancient Bible is valued as high as 40 million Turkish Liras ( 28 Mil. Dollars)
Apparently the Gospel of Barnabas claims Jesus wasn't crucified but ascended directly to heaven and that it was Judas who was actually crucified in his place.
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