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The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
We just don't like "Christians" who do-do onto others.
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
I don't hate religion or the concept of Christianity, it's the people who proliferate it, evangelize it, bastardize it, kill in the name of it, and otherwise ram it down the throats of everyone around them that irritates the sh*t outta me.


Aside from that, it's great!
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
this thread will get more responses than the TR I just posted...

just saying
PP

Trad climber
SF,CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
Because we had to go to church when we were kids.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
Are we supposed to love christians, but hate christianity? Or love christianity, but hate christians? Religion is so confusing.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
"I don't hate religion or the concept of Christianity, it's the people who proliferate it, evangelize it, bastardize it, kill in the name of it, and otherwise ram it down the throats of everyone around them that irritates the sh*t outta me."

Apogee nails it. Add to that, that Christianity has slaughtered and enslaved more people in history than any other entity....

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:29pm PT
Communisim has it beat by an order of magnitude or so.
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
TGT, I doubt that very seriously, but it would be an interesting comparison.
sportcamper

Trad climber
gunx
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
Personally, I think it is that t.v. show about .. The Duggers?, 18 and counting... that is making me cringe...
Hankster

Trad climber
Eldorado Springs, CO
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:36pm PT
Nothing wrong with praising anything you want. In AA you can consider your "higher power" your coffee cup.

To me, it's just organized religion that I can't stand.

Caylor
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
It's the organization that's the problem. I'm a Catholic by birth and now by choice, but I'm the first to admit that the church has had some really less than stellar moments.

Even if we presume that God is perfect, people are from it. As long as they're the ones running the church, whether it be large or small, it's only going to be as good as the person(s) running it. It's kind of like family. Some of them may be really f-ed up, but you love them anyways.

Few things in this world are perfect. Organized religion is a perfect example of that.
bwancy1

Trad climber
Here
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
Because of the christians.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
Nefarious, Jesus who never started a church or a religion said, to love your enemies....bless them that curse you.

I ask over and over why and what is the point in grouping people under one umbrella we are all different. I try hard not to give people labels. If you do often you don't get to know the individual who may be a pretty terrific person and have some great gifts to offer.

The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition..... don't think that's what Jesus had in mind. :D Jess sayin', Lynnie
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZF5uQfpbDs

Meanwhile, I think I'll try out TR's Gramma's church
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
I love Christianity... they have wacky things like this:

Ritualized cannibalism - Communion (Drink my blood, eat my flesh)

and

Zombie Day - Easter (I mean come on, a dood rises from the grave?)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
Ya know, 72hw, most of Jesus' close friends were killed in pretty horrific ways. Don't know if I would undergo something like that to promote a myth. Jess thinkin' out loud here. Lynne

Actually we drink wine or grape juice at communion and Jesus said this is my body....not flesh. :D Peace
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
Jaybro, that is some funny shizzle.
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
Lynne - you are not making a very good case for me to become a friend of Jesus... jess sayin.

;-)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
The communist body count is around 149 million people.

http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/communistbodycount.php

The only “Christian” conflict that makes the Wiki list is the 30 years war with a upper limit of about 11 ½ million. (probably half that) And this was really a straight nation state political conflict over territory and resources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

I’m not going to go thru the exercise of weeding out all the duplicates, eliminating the purely political slaughters and adding up the numbers, but I’d bet you can’t come up with a list that is remotely purely “Christian “ that exceeds 15 million from 800to 1700. Only the French religious wars and the Thirty Years war make the list of major conflicts and they only total 10 million between them. Stalin did better than twice that all by himself. The death toll from the Inquisition was 31,000 by some pretty good official record keeping. Most of the toll from the Crusades were Europeans killed by Arabs in Europe, that was around 2 million.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#30YrW

So, find another myth to flog.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
"most of Jesus' close friends were killed in pretty horrific ways."

So were a lot of David Koresh's close friends... A cult is a cult. What's your point?
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
that is a pretty huge brush a lot of you have. you realize obama is a *gasp* christian? Where's the posse?
the Fet

Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
christmas - winter solstice celebaration, can't stop it, take it over, pretend Jesus's birthday was on it, keep the tree and other pagan traditions, complain that it's being secularized.
flying monkey

Trad climber
mount shasta, california
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
Because there is a propaganda war against it... Simply replace the word religion or Christianity with the word 'democracy' and you'll get a much clearer picture of what's really going on, who's starting the wars, shoving ideals down peoples throats and all the rest. People are so brainwashed, they think religion is bad because it puts rules on their activities yet they are perfectly willing to let their government(without moral guidance) do exactly that.
This country was founded on God given rights, It is the job of our government to protect those rights not regulate us into oblivion.
Get with the times, atheism is the new religion complete with it's dogma known as evolution.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
The Dogma is Statisim not evolution.

They have a hard time with a few founding principles

When in the course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed,
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
Why do you feel compelled to "hate" it then instead of simply ignore it?

What about the concept of natural rights?

Is that a myth also?

No wonder you want everyone to be a slave to your concept of a utopian state.
Kofi Donny Annan

climber
darkest of africa
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
another essential thread germain to our rock climber's existence

i love that you have the right to post whatever willy-nilly thought pops into your head. this one is better than most, but still falls under the heading of "political drivel that waters down Super Topo"

Kofi edit- lotsa people enjoying this thread. so I apologize for being grumpy 'cause clearly the peanut gallery likes this one. Go figure
Gene

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
What is this Christianity stuff anyway? I'd like to hear your views.

Thanks,
gm
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:50pm PT
"There is no proof that any in the bible is the true story of what happened."
Your grammar makes this very difficult to understand, so I have to guess what you are insinuating. The cities and locations (and hills and tombs and confrontation with Roman empire and rivers and lakes and continuity with egyptian history and etc etc etc..) have architectural remains, and always have.

"Its been changed 1000 times to suit the present day circumstances"

I believe you are confused with the book of mormon. The 'bible' was written by people, that actually exhisted, and copied in constantininople (how the hell you spell that) following the fall of the Roman Empire until monks were translating the exact same words when Shakespeare got ahold of it. He re-wrote it in 'common english' (both the original texts of the guttenburg and artifacts containing the original copies hand made are in museums the world over) where it stands today. The king james bible is still available, as is its latin counterparts. The phrases have been changed to fit the modern dialect (no more Thees and Thou's etc) into several variations, depending on the demographic, but the most common is the NIV (new international version). The phrasing is all that is changed, the message is and has always been the same. Whether the translation is across languages or dialects, the same thing is being said as had been said a thousand years ago.


So, in closing, you are just another angry hippy shouting drivel. Hate all you want, but c'mon man, do some research first :D
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
It gave us this concept

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness—-
Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
I don't dislike Christians. I just like it better when they're not around.
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
"Why do you feel compelled to "hate" it then instead of simply ignore it?"

Because there are way too many people who practice Christianity and are impossible to ignore. They constantly try to infuse their beliefs into public policy and politics, and knock on my door trying ram the 'good news' down my throat.

Having said this, one of my very best friends leads a strong Christian life- we have stimulating, intelligent, respectful discussions about the role of spirituality in one's life, and to his great credit, has never, ever evangelized his beliefs towards me or anyone else. Though I would not consider myself a true 'Christian', what I have learned from these discussions are some of the greatest lessons of my life.



72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
TGT - what?

Honestly?

Christianity gave us that verse....

Huh.

EDIT: Sorry, this is my last post on a religious subject here. My thoughts on the matter can be best summed up by heading over to http://richarddawkins.net/ or by reading any number of books including, but not limited to "The end of faith" by Sam Harris or "God is not great" by Christopher Hitchens to name only a couple of fairly recent tomes.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
72 lighten up on the inhalation and read!
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
You got it right the first time TGT.

They can't read for sure.

Same ole sh'it, here.
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
craig, I love arguing with you because you seem to have no regard for digging deeper than a gut feeling. This makes my job in enlightening you that much easier!


"But just look above at all Christianity has done
And it goes on and on"

Christianity, paganism, Muslims, what do you want to call it? Look at all that humanity has done to eachother, with religion or without. It is our nature to destroy eachother and the idiots nature to blame it on someone else. Trust me, there is violence and genocide where the vatican has no influence :D

"And still based on something that doesn't exist"

Compassion and good will are alive and well, despite your every best efforts.

"Or is their something, other than someone had a good feeling, or prayed and something happened"

People who didn't know who we were fixed our water heater when my parents were dirt poor because they heard it was broken and wanted to do a good thing for a neighbor. Every year the youth group at my church raises tens of thousands of dollars for starving children in africa. My college group has sent dozens of students across the world to give special needs to families that are dying from diseases and war. I gave my sister my car when hers was repossessed and she had no way to get to work and support herself and her child because God told me it was the right thing to do, and I got in pretty damn good shape riding my bike to work.

I don't think I need to list examples on how God has made a positive impact on the lives of christians, but there are a few anyway.

People whose way of thinking align with yourself are so fast to judge and hate and point fingers, but have never done anything. I put blood and sweat into my community and into a shitty world that cares nothing about me in the hopes that someones day may be so much better that it is as good as my WORST day. Fact is, conservatives donate four times as much and volunteer twice as much as liberals, has and always will be. You can say christianity is bunk because of intangibles all you want, there is no proof for or against, and its not an argument that will reveal anything.

But tangibles? We got the hippies beat by a mile. Go ahead and do a peaceful protest. We'll be feeding the homeless.

God bless punk!
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
"what I have learned from these discussions are some of the greatest lessons of my life. "

wasn't he 'cramming his beliefs down your throat?"


what a tired argument. This is the reason you hate christians? Because at some point in your life someone told you something you don't agree with? Welcome to the real world little boy, expect more. Imagine the school telling your daughter that she can have abortions without her parents knowing about it. The dreidle spins both ways!
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
t*r -

no disrespect nor yelling intended, I posted the same in another thread...just an observation(and a cry for attention ;D)

I apologize if I've missed your TRs and appreciation thread, it's easy to miss the 'good stuff' sometimes. I do appreciate your presence here, carry on...and...

Cheers!
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
I read your trip reports every time, but don't usually post. I rarely post on trip reports unless its to bump them, just becaues they are fun to read and usually what can you say to a bitchin' story? But trust me, they get read!
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
"wasn't he 'cramming his beliefs down your throat?"

No, he wasn't, GDavis.
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
Yes, apo, that was my point.

Duhrrr.....
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
"Add to that, that Christianity has slaughtered and enslaved more people in history than any other entity.... "

come on people. If you're going to make a statement like that at least make sure it's accurate. Hate Christianity all you like but that statement just isn't true.

Edit: Amen Gdavis!
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
Yeah they don't even have a clue that they are being slaughtered and enslaved right now this very minute as we speak.

And that has nothing to do with Christianity.
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
I don't think my tour guide for the slave market in Zanzibar said anything about Christianity but maybe I missed that part.

Edit: Dr.F have you seen all those people lined up to do good deeds over there in Somalia lately? Man is inherently good isn't he. The need to do good just oozes from our pores.
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
GDavis: "Imagine the school telling your daughter that she can have abortions without her parents knowing about it."

This statement is a classic example of how Christians believe that morality and values in our society can only be accomplished by the presence of religion and Christianity in our society. Pretty feckin' presumptuous, if you ask me.

Is your religion-blindered mind really so indoctrinated as to believe that morality and social goodness can only be accomplished through your belief system? (Rhetorical question, I know.)
Cracko

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all.


Enough said for me !

Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:34pm PT

Whoever we are
Wherever were from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
Its gonna take a lot more
Than tryin to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it the earth
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near n far
Dumb all over,
Black n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin the bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Dont believe in the book
We got over here

You can't run a race
Without no feet
n pretty soon
There wont be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it wont blow up
n disappear
Itll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)

You can't run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

To arms! to arms!
Hooray! thats great
Two legs aint bad
Unless there's a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
(it gotta be that way!)
But their book says:
Revenge the crusades...
With whips n chains
n hand grenades...
Two arms? two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
There aint no other!
Our God says
Its all okay!
Our God says
This is the way!

It says in the book:
Burn n destroy...
n repent, n redeem
n revenge, n deploy
n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
cause they dont go for whats in the book
n that makes em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice french bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
(cause he can really take care of business!)

And when his humble tv servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
Its okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
cause if we don't do it,
We aint gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book youre using at the
Time...cant use theirs... it dont work
...its all lies...gotta use mine...)
Aint that right?
Thats what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we cant really be dumb
If were just following gods orders
Hey, lets get serious...
God knows what hes doin
He wrote this book here
An the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,
So...
If were dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(an maybe even a little ugly on the side)
Chris2

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
"Everyone," doesn't, hate Christianity.
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
I lied - one more post on the subject.

This video is really eye opening. It asks the question "What if God disappeared" and the resulting hypothesis is rather striking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCuc34hvD4&feature=player_embedded

jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
72hw - just curious. Have you ever watched any of the John Lennox debates?
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
Dr F and the other antichrists

You said it, many times

Now why are you trying to cram it down the theists throats?

Hypocrites .....
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
Dr F -- "We just want you to open your mind to the possibility of nothing,..."

Hahahahaha
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
Re: The Lennox Debates

Yes, indeed I have listened to a few, as I recall with Prof. Dawkins and one set in a more round table format with other leading theists and agnostics/atheists. Very interesting stuff as I recall and Lennox gave a clear voice to the issues in a very noble way. I remain unmoved in my convictions however, and whole heartedly stand behind the notion that faith and science are utterly opposed.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:31pm PT


Tricky & Costanza Francavilla :

Dear God
Hope you got the message, and
I pray you can make it better down here
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
But all the people that you made in your image
See them starving on their feet
'Cause they don't get enough to eat
From God, I can't believe in you
I can't believe in you

Dear God
Sorry to disturb you, but
I feel that I should be heard loud and clear
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
And all the people that you made in your image
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet about God
I can't believe in you
I can't believe

Did you make disease
I can't believe
And the diamond blue?
I don't believe
Did you make mankind after we made you?
I can't believe
And the devil too
I don't believe
I can't believe

Dear God
Don't know if you noticed, but
Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book
And us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look
And all the people that you made in your image still believing that junk exist
Well I know it ain't, and so do you
Dear God
I can't believe in
I don't believe in
I don't believe

I won't believe in heaven and hell
No saints, no sinners, no devil as well
No pearly gates, no thorny crown
You're always letting us humans down
The wars you bring, the babes you drown
Those lost at sea and never found
And it's the same the whole world 'round
The hurt I see helps to compound
That Father, Son and Holy Ghost
Is just somebody's unholy hoax
And if you're up there you'd perceive
That my heart's here upon my sleeve
If there's one thing I don't believe in

It's you
spot

Boulder climber
Atascadero,Ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
This is my kind of church!

THe First Baptist Bar and Grill - song by Tim Wilson

link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YliBqsV3YMc

ps. Did the "forced to go to church" as a kid. Good idea, but sometimes the wrong application. Didn't get the act like an a$$hole 6 days a week and get a go to heaven ticket on sunday at church. It's everyday decency or nothing!
MUR

climber
A little to the left of right
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
Spot > "Did the "forced to go to church" as a kid. Good idea, but sometimes the wrong application. Didn't get the act like an a$$hole 6 days a week and get a go to heaven ticket on sunday at church. It's everyday decency or nothing! "

EXACTLY!

I have no problem with the gist of Christianity, just don't particularly like the Hypocracy of it's followers.
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
72hw - I like the intelligent debate and I enjoy Lennox's disarming style. No need to cram anything down anybody's throat. Discussion of opposing views can often be enlightening and entertaining. No need for aggressive posturing, rhetoric, or anger to be involved.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
Well, y'know, how much can you really say about a trip report anyway? Wow. Cool. Proud. Bet you had an awesome time. Wish we were there. But if you want to know why everyone hates something, well, now you can get a discussion going.
I don't hate Christians much, the ones around today I mean. They're all pretty weak sauce compared to the ones who founded the cult in the first place. A lot of skeletons in the closet, that's for sure. I wish they would open their minds to more of what's real and jettison the bullshit parts of their artificial mythology, get on with their own lives instead of dwelling on an imaginary afterlife and such, but if that's what pushes their buttons, I don't hate them for being true to themselves.

http://io9.com/5209115/science-proves-that-christians-know-god
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
Flip Wilson belonged to the best church,
THE CHURCH OF WHATS HAPPENING NOW !!!!
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
Jbar - I agree with you on the debate thing. When conversation devolves into Ad Hominem it ceases to be valid.

My earlier posts were in keeping with the original, playful tone of this thread, and I apologize if I gave any other impression. Especially where it might concern Lennox - one of the few voices I find myself agreeing with on many things even though he represents an opposing view from mine. Hence my compliment to him above.

Most of the debates I have listened to featuring Lennox revolved around the question of whether science and faith are reconcilable you see, so I was merely pointing out he had not changed my mind, but was indeed a very eloquent voice on the subject.

I do believe I made a promise earlier to discontinue posting on this thread - must be my lack of a moral compass that has led me astray...

hehehe.

Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
It’s not accurate to blame “Christianity” for the Spanish Inquisition or blame “Marxism” for murders committed by psychopaths such as Lenin, Stalin and Beria.

The Spanish Inquisition was started in 1478 by Spanish Monarchs, Ferdinand and Isabella, to replace the medieval inquisition that had been under papal control. It was under direct control of the monarchy. The medieval inquisition, as an ecclesiastical tribunal, had jurisdiction only over baptized Christians, and punishment was usually less harsh than requiring the “guilty” to go on a pilgrimage.

The Spanish Inquisition was motivated by the multi- religious nature of the country after the Moorish (Muslim) conquests and the large population of Jews. Pope Innocent was against Ferdinand and Isabella starting a harsher tribunal under their own authority. Their inquisition resulted in execution of 3,000 to 5,000, mostly Jews and Muslims, and a few Protestants.

Karl Marx would have been mortified by the blood and oppression in the Russian communist movement. Although not a moralist, he proposed the creation of classless, productive and congruous society. He advocated change through organized revolutionary action, but the mass starvation and murder of millions of peasants goes well against the grain of his theory.

It would take bullies and authoritarians, like Lenin, to insist that large-scale killing would be necessary to bring about the communist utopia. Lenin had little mercy for traditionalists or political opponents and that set the stage for Stalin, Beria, etc who would murder, starve and oppress to preserve their own personal power and gratify their own aggressive, anti-social and sexual impulses.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
Dr. F...."I hate it (hate is a really ugly word, are you sure you hate ?) because it is based on a myth and a lie." Do you also hate all the Greek myths and Toddler Nursery Rhymes ? :)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
72hw, I am just on an open forum listening to others, weighing what they say and then speaking what I think, feel and have learned in life. I am not trying to make you a friend of Jesus.
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
Hey 72hw I didn't mean to seem like I was accusing you of anything. I saw your posts about dawkins and was just curious if you had heard of Lennox. I believe in being informed. I often force myself to watch or listen to opposing views if only to say I try to keep an open mind. There is one whom I'm thinking of now I can only get through about 10min of his show before I have to change the channel. But that would be another thread.

"the war in iraq is offically a christain vs muslim war based on our general's opinion"
Then may we also substitute "afghanistan" for Iraq or is that different based on your political views?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
Nefarious, when you simply state a cult is a cult .... well that's not necessarily true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cult.

Lynne is not ignorant or a cultist...:DD



WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
What about that cult "widefetish" their members all dress in clean rugby shirts and climb wide cracks.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:47pm PT

A bit lengthy but, an excellent analysis of why "every one hates christianity so much", or in my case why "christianity" has lost its credibility.

Ironically, the very leaders who boast most loudly of the power of their faith, are the ones that have driven so many people from it.

September 10, 2004

Keeper of the Faith?

God's Will, According to the Bush Administration

By DAVID DOMKE

In his address to Republican Party delegates and the nation last Thursday, George W. Bush used the words freedom or liberty, in some form, 34 times. Say this for the president: he can hammer home a message. Among these instances was this declaration: "I believe that America is called to lead the cause of freedom in a new century. I believe that millions in the Middle East plead in silence for their liberty. I believe that given the chance, they will embrace the most honorable form of government ever devised by man. I believe all these things because freedom is not America's gift to the world, it is the Almighty God's gift to every man and woman in this world." These words both lay bare and obscure underlying truths about the administration. Regarding the former, Bush's linkage of freedom and liberty with divine wishes is indicative of how central a Christian fundamentalist worldview is to his conception of the struggle against Islamic terrorists. At the same time, emphasis on these values masks the reality that the administration is determined to define what counts as freedom and liberty and who will have the privilege to experience it.

An omnipresent consideration for Christian fundamentalists is the "Great Commission" biblical mandate, in the book of Matthew, of "go therefore and make disciples of all the nations." The felt responsibility to live out this command, both locally and globally, has become intertwined in the eyes of the Religious Right with support for the principles of political freedom and liberty. In particular, the individualized religious liberty present in the United States (particularly available historically for European-American Protestants, of course) is something that fundamentalists long to extend to other cultures and nations. In the 1980s, fundamentalist preacher and leader Jerry Falwell argued that the dissemination of Christianity could not be carried out if other nations were communist-a perspective which provided a good reason to support a strong U.S. military, conservative foreign policy, and the spreading of individual freedoms. Falwell's perspective on the 2004 presidential matchup is unequivocal: In the July 1 issue of his email newsletter and on his website, Falwell declared, "For conservative people of faith, voting for principle this year means voting for the re-election of George W. Bush. The alternative, in my mind, is simply unthinkable." He added, "I believe it is the responsibility of every political conservative, every evangelical Christian, every pro-life Catholic, every traditional Jew, every Reagan Democrat, and everyone in between to get serious about re-electing President Bush."

The certitude present in Bush's rhetoric and in the support for Bush by Falwell (and by other Religious Right leaders such as Pat Robertson and Gary Bauer) is emblematic of fundamentalists' confidence that their understanding of the world provides what religion scholar Bruce Lawrence terms "mandated universalist norms" that cross cultural and historical context and therefore, as the biblical command makes clear, are to be shared with all peoples. Indeed, Harvard professor Harvey Cox argues that "Fundamentalists not only insist on preserving the fundamentals of the faith, but envision a world in which these fundamentals would be more widely accepted and practiced. They want not only to 'keep the faith,' but to change the world so the faith can be kept more easily" (emphasis added to Cox's words). The administration's unrelenting emphasis on freedom and liberty-which allows them to emphasize values with both religious and political heritages-has functioned as the centerpiece of what theologian R. Scott Appleby has termed the administration's offering of "a theological version of Manifest Destiny." This twenty-first century adaptation of manifest destiny differs little from earlier American versions: the goal remains to vanquish any who do not willingly adopt the norms and values of white, religiously conservative Protestants.

Ultimately, whether the president's public religiosity is a sham, serving merely as a rhetorical cover for the administration's neo-conservative or corporate agenda is a moot point. All that matters politically is that the public perceives Bush's religious discourse as genuine. A mid-June Time poll found that 54 percent of likely U.S. voters said they would describe Bush "as a man of strong religious faith" (only 7 percent said the same for John Kerry). To be clear, the perception of Bush is the one that Americans-including many who are not overly religious themselves-tend to interpret in favorable terms, particularly in challenging times. The administration has capitalized upon this public outlook. Since the terrorist attacks of September 11, Bush has consistently claimed that the freedom and liberty that he seeks to spread is not partisan or nationalistic in nature but rather God's universal gospel-so do not challenge the administration. For example, in his address before Congress and a national television audience nine days after the terrorist attacks, Bush declared, "The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them." Similarly, in the 2003 State of the Union address, with the conflict in Iraq imminent, he declared, "Americans are a free people, who know that freedom is the right of every person and the future of every nation. The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." Bush's words last week were nearly identical. These are not requests for divine favor; they are declarations of divine wishes.

From this position, only short theological and rhetorical steps are required to justify U.S. actions. For instance, at a December 2003 press conference, Bush said, "I believe, firmly believe-and you've heard me say this a lot, and I say it a lot because I truly believe it-that freedom is the Almighty God's gift to every person, every man and woman who lives in this world. That's what I believe. And the arrest of Saddam Hussein changed the equation in Iraq. Justice was being delivered to a man who defied that gift from the Almighty to the people of Iraq." In essence, the administration has transformed Bush's "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists" policy to "Either you are with us, or you are against God." The Bush administration, therefore, has offered a dangerous combination: the president claims to know God's wishes and presides over a global landscape in which the administration believes that it can act upon such beliefs without compunction. Indeed, the administration's decision for war in Iraq is wholly congruent with religious fundamentalists' willingness, in the words of scholar Harold Perkin, to impose "what they take to be God's will upon other people" because others are viewed as certain to benefit.

To the great misfortune of American democracy and the global public, such a view is indistinguishable from that of the terrorists it is fighting. One is hard pressed to see how the perspective of Osama bin Laden, that he and his followers are delivering God's wishes for the United States (and others who share western customs and policies), is much different from Bush's perspective that the United States is delivering God's wishes to the Taliban or Iraq. Clearly, flying airplanes into buildings in order to kill innocent people is an indefensible immoral activity. So too, some traditional allies told the Bush administration, is an unprovoked pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign nation. In both instances, the aggression manifested in a form that was available to the leaders. Fundamentalism in the White House is a difference in degree, not kind, from fundamentalism exercised in dark, damp caves. Democracy is always the loser. The will of the public, allies, or the United Nations is meaningless to an American president certain of the will of God

While Christian conservatives and hard-line neo-conservatives may see the developments after September 11 in a positive light (after all, one might say that God and the United States have been given a larger piece of the planet to play with), all Americans should be leery of any government that merges religiosity into political ends. Noble ideals such as freedom and liberty are clearly worth pursuing, but the administration has promoted these concepts with its left hand while using its right hand to treat others-including many U.S. citizens-in an authoritarian, dismissive manner. Unfortunately, the Bush administration is the latest entry in a historical record which shows that beliefs and claims about divine leading are no guarantee that one will exercise power in a consistently liberating, egalitarian manner.

David Domke is an Associate Professor at the University of Washington. This essay draws upon his arguments in God Willing? Political Fundamentalism in the White House, the "War on Terror" and the Echoing Press, published August 2004 by Pluto Press and available in the United States through the University of Michigan Press. He can be reached at: domke@u.washington.edu

Weekend Edition Features for August 7 / 8, 2004
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
That cult, Werner, actually makes some sense....smiles and peace tonight. Thank God for the outdoors...which is where I'm going...to look at the stars. Makes alot more sense than most stuff. Lynne
Tami

Social climber
Vancouver, Canada
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:06am PT
Godddammit t*r ya should'a just got on yer gaytray anyway for the day and stayed away..........from being a TROLL!
Rankin

climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:23am PT
My grandmother was a very religious Christian. She taught Sunday school for years, was a chuch elder, and did scores of volunteer charity work. Her heart was in the right place, and I'm still amazed at her selflessness. Honestly, I think she was not a very happy person. I'm sure she carried a lot of shame and guilt around with her, and her devotion to her church and Bible was the center of her life. I wish she could have been happier, but I'm glad she had Christianity, because she got something out of it. What she got wasn't happiness, but more like a sense of purpose. Better than nothing I guess.
I don't hate Christianity, but am angered that the practice of religion is too often perverted for power, and too many self-professed Christians are so un-Christlike. My grandmother was, what I consider to be, a true practicing Christian. She never raised her voice, and always acted through love and devotion...to people. Too many 'Christians' lose sight of the role of love in Christianity...a love of all people. "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you." (Book of Matthew, I believe).
Too many Christians behave as if they are in some exclusive club, and are therefore entitled to hate, violence and self-righteousness. They take their own forgiveness for granted, but are stingy giving it to others. They don't know humility, but somehow by bowing their heads on Sunday, they feel entitled to disrespect and hate other people. "Why do you see the speck in your neighbour’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:3)
Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:27am PT
The word “cult” means nothing unless it means something. Ask a hundred people and you get a hundred different and far ranging answers. Look in several dictionaries and you find broad and varying definitions. Just about any group of people, religious, political, academic etc. fit under one or more definitions of cult.

Yet the word “cult” is bandied about regularly, as if it means something. Whatever your definition, it has strong current connotation.

What do you think of when you hear the word “cult”? Anti-social, insular societies? Brainwashing? Compliant and unthinking sycophants? Suicide pacts?

The reason so many people want to use the word is because you can attach anything to it you want. Go ahead and tailor your own definition…..imply that someone is a mindless psychopath.

As such, “cult” is a slur.
Rankin

climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:30am PT
I agree that 'cult' has negative connotations, but for some, isn't that the point of using the word?
The Cult, however, is a kick ass band.
Mar'

Trad climber
Tustin
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:31am PT
They're the only ones who's skeletons are in our own closets. Kinda sounds like my rack! rattle-rattle ;)
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:40am PT
If t*r's pastor throws in some chocolate bunnies, it's a deal.

Perhaps we should distinguish between christianity, to the extent that it is known, and Paulism. It's fairly clear that there was a real person named Yeshua/Joshua, aka Jesus. He was a Jewish ascetic and rabbi = teacher. Little else is truly known about him. The various sacred writings that have survived are somewhat disputed, and the earliest say much less about Yeshua and his teachings than the later ones. Certainly the bible is not a reliable source.

Much of what is now called christianity is a consolidation developed by Saul or Tarsus, after his conversion. Decades later. He made key decisions about doctrine, writings, branding, marketing, and organization, and some call his religion Paulism, not christianity.

Whether Yeshua intended to start a religion at all, or would have anything to do with what is now called christianity, is a rather large question. The dogmas, practices, and beliefs that have been accreted onto his are quite astonishing.
apogee

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:52am PT
MH:
Abomination!
Heretic!
66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666!

How DARE you question the sheeple-mindedness of millenia of lemmings that would follow a prophet or a psycho (hard to tell the difference, apparently) gilded in polyester on a local cable channel over the cliff and into oblivion (as long as they have a valid credit card or their check clears).

Halleleujah! (sp?)

Christians, unite! You are being victimized, again! Rise and begin another bloody war that will exterminate the non-believers and bolster the bank accounts of the church (that is, until another choirboy scandal erupts, and the lawsuits take their toll).
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:54am PT
I just want my chocobunny.
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 14, 2009 - 01:00am PT
"Too many _ behave as if they are in some exclusive club, and are therefore entitled to hate, violence and self-righteousness."

Feel free to insert Christian, Muslim, Athiest, Liberal, Supertopo climber, etc
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 01:11am PT
"I don't hate Christianity, but am angered that the practice of religion is too often perverted for power, and too many self-professed Christians are so un-Christlike"


Well, considering he was a perfect being, I guess we can't really be held accountable for being his spittin' image. I hear this complaint a lot, and hardly know what to tell ya - christians are people too!


as far as the warblers article... i think people hated christianity long before Gee Dubya was around. The whole "war on iraq is a new crusades" is a romantic, if stupidly allegorical, argument. Drawing conclusions this way is a haphazard way of thinking - two different things are not the same. If anyone seriously believes some higher power told the goverment to invade and cleanse the lands of.... well,... you may not be ready to step outside into the real world :D
Bad Climber

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 01:35am PT
Perfect being? Hogwash. No such thing or person--except my wonderful dog, and even he ain't perfect. Perfect is a fairy tale, although my dog does have a hairy tail. Plato and assorted sordid Greeks had a lot to do with the shape of Christianity, one aspect being the debased nature of nature and the existence of divine "perfection" beyond--somewhere. Platonic "forms" anyone?

You want perfection? I'll give you freakin' perfection! That last icy cold lager I chugged was PERFECT! I've done some damn near perfect climbs in my time. The closest? Hmmmm.... Now there's a tough question. Screw this God/dog dichotomy--although I do not wish to denigrate ANYTHING doggy style, if you get my drift. Deciding which is the perfect climb? What genre?

Okay, here is one, of many! The North Face of Mt. Fay in the Canadian Rockies. I did the route on the far left side, just to the left of the ice bulge, which, alas, no longer exists. Some other old farts here will know what I'm talking about.

That climbs was the BEST alpine ice climb I've ever done, and I came as close to God as this atheist will ever get. We pulled over the 'schrund and THWACK! Uber plastic ice the whole friggin' way, every pick placement a potential belay. Damn it all to hell, that was a GREAT! day.

Sorry about drifting an OT thread back ON T!

BAD
WBraun

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 02:19am PT
"No such thing or person--except my wonderful dog.."

God spelled backwards is dog.

In this age of Kali people now worship their dog .....
Tami

Social climber
Vancouver, Canada
Apr 14, 2009 - 02:31am PT
t*r I had my 17 y/o stumped fer 3 hrs on an Easter egg hunt with only six clues.

Meanin' you an' yer gaytray should'a been here at my place to FIND THE EASTER SCHWAAAAAG and then, afterwards, you could'a headed to Cypress Bowl & slid around on the 'tray with Pride.
And in the rain :-D

Snicker, giggle. Good troll girl...........over a hunnerd posts. And some of them on FIRE!

pip the dog

Mountain climber
planet dogboy
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:50am PT
i don't hate christians. i do much dislike and go to great lengths to avoid evangelicals. there is a difference, no?

faith is at root a guess. albeit the most profound guess for any creature caught in the hall of mirrors of selfconsciousness. to my eye what more than anything makes us human.

but it is very cheesy to try to ram your best guess down someone else's throat. re: christianity, i blame this mostly on Paul - an angry, punishment, my way or the highway kinda guy. how did Paul end up with more pages in the NT than anyone? me, i tore all of Paul's schtick out of my Gideon's long ago.

mocking evangelicals is just another form of evangelicalism. stop. meditate on your own best guess and devote your energy to living accordingly.

or so says your small dog ('llams god') who finds the mean Paul-like stuff in this thread tedious and stupid. a polite and thoughtful conversation on the matter might well be interesting. i myself am an atheisist -- though forever re-asking the question and re-guessing my best answer (the hall of mirrors). and hence always open to polite and genuine thoughts on the matter. but angry evangelicals vs angry evangelical anti-evangelicals... blah.


canis fidelis est,

^,,^
~~~~~
"Jesus wept." [John 11:35] _ why?
AllieKat

Social climber
Kirkland, WA
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:57am PT
Seriously? hahahaha!

"Its been changed 1000 times to suit the present day circumstances"

"I believe you are confused with the book of mormon. The 'bible' was written by people, that actually exhisted, and copied in constantininople (how the hell you spell that) following the fall of the Roman Empire until monks were translating the exact same words when Shakespeare got ahold of it. He re-wrote it in 'common english' (both the original texts of the guttenburg and artifacts containing the original copies hand made are in museums the world over) where it stands today. The king james bible is still available, as is its latin counterparts. The phrases have been changed to fit the modern dialect (no more Thees and Thou's etc) into several variations, depending on the demographic, but the most common is the NIV (new international version). The phrasing is all that is changed, the message is and has always been the same. Whether the translation is across languages or dialects, the same thing is being said as had been said a thousand years ago."

Absolutely! Clearly is a low risk of anything being changed over these thousands of years with all of these "minor" translations with only the "phrasing, variations based on demographics, languages, dialects", etc... I wouldn't question that at all.....I couldn't help but notice how quick you threw the Mormon's "book" under the bus without hesitation. Very Christian move...

hahahaha! trolling or not, that is funny! Fiction novels are my fave....Do the same people that authenticate baseball cards do the same with religious artifacts? In the eyes of the beholder...that sorta comes to mind.

Gotta go talk to my coffee cup now...and relieve myself of all responsibility for my actions...mind, body, and soul.

To each his own... : )

AllieKat
Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Apr 14, 2009 - 04:49am PT
"……until monks were translating the exact same words when Shakespeare got ahold of it. He re-wrote it in 'common english' (both the original texts of the guttenburg and artifacts containing the original copies hand made are in museums the world over) where it stands today."


There is no tangible evidence that Shakespeare was on the committee that translated the King James Bible or that he rewrote any of its passages. (The names of the fifty-four translators are known--his name is missing)



“I couldn't help but notice how quick you threw the Mormon's "book" under the bus without hesitation. Very Christian move...”

Threw it under the bus, did he? Reading arrogant and aggressive action into someone else's post and describing it as a "very Christian move" is...........hardly Christian.

For the record, 99.9% of the changes in the Book of Mormon were punctuation, spelling and grammatical errors, not linguistic content or meaning.
Jeremy Ross

Gym climber
North Fork, CA
Apr 14, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
Can't really say why people hate Christians, but I for one think it's very odd that the universal symbol of Christians, the cross, is a device constructed solely for the purpose of torture. I am not a world religion expert, but I think its kinda funny.

Like the great comedian, Bill Hicks, said: "...why would Jesus want to come back and the first thing he sees is a cross? ouch, that's like wearing a gun and saying 'just thinking of John (as in JFK), Jackie..." I paraphrased but that's the gist of what he said, very funny guy. RIP.

-JR
S.Powers

Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
I am writing to let you know that I have a concern regarding Christianity's disaffected cock-and-bull stories. Please note that many of the conclusions I'm about to draw are based on cogent and virtually incontrovertible evidence provided by a set of people who have suffered immensely on account of Christianity. From a purely technical point of view, if Christianity were to convict me without trial, jury, or reading one complete paragraph of this letter, social upheaval and violence would follow. It is therefore clear that if it weren't for cold-blooded, hidebound boneheads, Christianity would have no friends. After watching Christianity's secret police cripple Christianity's enemies politically, economically, socially, morally, and psychologically, one might conclude that Christianity et al. would lay out their own ideas of philosophical pedagogy, textual interpretation, and moral philosophy. Surprisingly, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, Christianity and I disagree about our civic duties. I warrant that we must do our utmost to launch an all-out ideological attack against the forces of sadism and encourage others to do the same. Christianity, on the other hand, believes that it is entitled to mold the mind of virtually every citizen—young or old, rich or poor, simple or sophisticated.

No amount of opinion or innuendo nor any string of unrelated flimflams can change the fact that Christianity lectures us about larrikinism so often that it may soon become a major source of hearing loss. How much more illumination does that fact need before Christianity can grasp it? Assuming the answer is "a substantial amount", let me point out that most of you reading this letter have your hearts in the right place. Now follow your hearts with actions.

Doesn't Christianity ever get tired of calling everyone a prodigal slubberdegullion? Let me try to put this in perspective: We must soon make one of the most momentous decisions in history. We must decide whether to let Christianity reduce our modern, civilized, industrialized society to a state of mindless, primitive barbarism or, alternatively, whether we should make a genuine contribution to human society. Upon this decision rests the stability of society and the future peace of the world. My view on this decision is that Christianity's suggestions should be labeled like a pack of cigarettes. I'm thinking of something along the lines of, "Warning: It has been determined that Christianity's monographs are intended to defend expansionism, ethnocentrism, and notions of racial superiority."

Never have I seen such a gross error in judgment as Christianity's decision to annihilate a person's personality, individuality, will, and character. According to the laws of probability, Christianity is inherently yellow-bellied, unctuous, and nasty. Oh, and it also has a shrewish mode of existence. Incidentally, given the amount of misinformation that Christianity is circulating, I must point out that its values are not an abstract problem. They have very concrete, immediate, and unpleasant consequences. For instance, I have some of its writings in front of me right now. In one of them, Christianity maintains that its blessing is the equivalent of a papal imprimatur. If you don't find that shocking then consider that by brainwashing its understrappers with Chekism, Christianity makes them easy to lead, easy to program, and easy to enslave.

In light of what I just stated, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that no matter what else we do, our first move must be to educate everyone about how Christianity's collaborators can read some crock of effete, predatory drivel it once wrote and believe that they've read something really profound. That's the first step: education. Education alone is not enough, of course. We must also catalogue its swindles and perversions.

Christianity's thesis is that might makes right. That's absolutely wishy-washy, you say? Good; that means you're finally catching on. The next step is to observe that there is only one way to stop Christianity from causing riots in the streets. We must make out of fools, wise people; out of fanatics, men of sense; out of idlers, workers; out of the most ill-natured loudmouths you'll ever see, people who are willing to examine the warp and woof of Christianity's commentaries. Then together we can force it into deserved bankruptcy. Together we can show the world that I want to live my life as I see fit. I can't do that while Christianity still has the ability to dominate or intimidate others.

Many of the people I've talked to have said that Christianity and its cringers should all be put up against a wall and given traitors' justice. Without commenting on that specifically I'd merely like to point out that an organization that wants to get ahead should try to understand the long-range consequences of its actions. Christianity has never had that faculty. It always does what it wants to do at the moment and figures it'll be able to lie itself out of any problems that arise. One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is neopaganism. That should serve as the final, ultimate, irrefutable proof that I myself recommend paying close attention to the praxeological method developed by the economist Ludwig von Mises and using it as a technique to lift the fog from Christianity's thinking. The praxeological method is useful in this context because it employs praxeology, the general science of human action, to explain why Christianity wants us to think of it as a do-gooder. Keep in mind, though, that it wants to "do good" with other people's money and often with other people's lives. If Christianity really wanted to be a do-gooder, it could start by admitting that it exhibits an air of superiority. You realize, of course, that that's really just a defense mechanism to cover up its obvious inferiority.

Christianity is thoroughly gung-ho about charlatanism because it lacks more pressing soapbox issues. So maybe Christianity is fluent in the unconscionable patois of parasitism. Big deal. What's more important is that every time Christianity tells its attendants that heartless malefactors are easily housebroken, their eyes roll into the backs of their heads as they become mindless receptacles of unsubstantiated information, which they accept without question. Christianity claims to have data supporting its assertion that "the norm" shouldn't have to worry about how the exceptions feel. Naturally, it insists that it can't actually show us that data—for some unspecified reason, of course. My guess is that it's hiding something. Maybe it's hiding the fact that it is the type of organization that turns up its nose at people like you and me. I guess that's because we haven't the faintest notion about the things that really matter such as why it would be good for Christianity to replace our natural soul with an artificial one.

If you ever ask Christianity to do something, you can bet that your request will get lost in the shuffle, unaddressed, ignored, and rebuffed. Christianity's ideas are geared toward the continuation of social stratification under the rubric of "tradition". Funny, that was the same term that its slaves once used to discredit legitimate voices in the classism debate. Posterity will have little occasion to glorify Christianity's "heroic" existence in a new epic, but I guess nobody ever explained that to Christianity's patsies. I want to give people more information about Christianity, help them digest and assimilate and understand that information, and help them draw responsible conclusions from it. Here's one conclusion I decidedly hope people draw: Christianity spews out its vituperative slander from a safe, no-risk forum. But it goes further than that; on the issue of obstructionism, Christianity is wrong again. Sure, it and its yes-men are blossoms on the upas tree of absolutism. But Christianity says it's going to devalue me as a person sooner than you think. Good old Christianity. It just loves to open its mouth and let all kinds of things come out without listening to how malodorous they sound.

Christianity seems to have recently added the word "counterrevolutionist" to its otherwise simplistic vocabulary. I suppose it intends to use big words like that to obscure the fact that my current plan is to examine the social and cultural conditions that lead it to treat anyone who doesn't agree with it to a torrent of vitriol and vilification. Yes, Christianity will draw upon the most powerful fires of Hell to tear that plan asunder, but its homilies are a mere cavil, a mere scarecrow, one of the last shifts of a desperate and dying cause. Christianity shouldn't distract attention from more important issues. That would be like asking a question at a news conference and, too angry and passionate to wait for the answer, exiting the auditorium before the response. Both of those actions cause this country to flounder on the shoals of self-interest, corruption, and chaos. That's the end of this letter. If I was unable to convince you that the same pattern of guilt-by-association practiced by Christianity's henchmen can be found in Christianity's policies, then you should definitely consider contacting me with your supporting or refuting evidence, opinions, personal stories, etc., so that I can make a better argument in my next letter.
S.Powers

Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
There are a number of frightening facts about Mr. Jeebus H Christ that I absolutely must make public. But before I do I need to go into a fair about of detail explaining how Jeebus approximates a viperine wantwit as far as practical action is concerned but differs in psychology, ideology and motivation. Hang in there; this explanation won't take long. The following text regards my complaints of recent days against Jeebus and his subtle but hostile attempts to shift our society from a culture of conscience to a culture of consensus. What kind of loser wants to ascribe opinions to me that I don't even hold? A loser like Jeebus.

Jeebus is an inspiration to disrespectful enemies of the people everywhere. They panegyrize his crusade to perpetuate harmful stereotypes and, more importantly, they don't realize that Jeebus's cause is not glorious. It is not wonderful. It is not good.

What Jeebus is incapable of seeing is that he has the nerve to call those of us who attack his malice and hypocrisy "conspiracy theorists". No, we're "conspiracy revealers" because we reveal that Jeebus is known for walking into crowded rooms and telling everyone there that he values our perspectives. Try, if you can, to concoct a statement better calculated to show how twisted Jeebus is. You can't do it. Not only that, but one of his thralls keeps throwing "scientific" studies at me, claiming they prove that our unalienable rights are merely privileges that Jeebus can dole out or retract. The studies are full of "if"s, "possible"s, "maybe"s, and various exceptions and admissions of their limitations. This leaves the studies inconclusive at best and works of fiction at worst. The only thing these studies can possibly prove is that you may be wondering why homophobic, intrusive asinine-types latch onto Jeebus's obiter dicta. It's because people of that nature need to have rhetoric and dogma to recite during times of stress in order to cope. That's also why Jeebus refers to a variety of things using the word "consubstantiationist". Translating this bit of jargon into English isn't easy. Basically, he's saying that the rules don't apply to him, which we all know is patently absurd. At any rate, if he honestly believes that some of my points are not valid, I would love to get some specific feedback from him.

Sure, we could just sit back and let Jeebus establish tacit boundaries and ground rules for the permissible spectrum of opinion, but that prospect really grates on people who have any kind of common sense. I shall spare no effort to reinforce what is best in people. Although others may disagree with that claim, few would dispute that I didn't want to talk about this. I really didn't. But I myself frequently wish to tell him that we must respect each other and learn to live together in peace. But being a generally genteel person, however, I always bite my tongue.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we lived in a world without chauvinistic reprobates? It's not the bogeyman that our children need to worry about. It's Jeebus. Not only is Jeebus more animalism-prone and more peremptory than any envisaged bogeyman or bugbear, but I have always been an independent thinker. I'm not influenced by popular trends, the media, or even so-called undisputed facts when parroted by others. Maybe that streak of independence is what first enabled me to see that there is something grievously wrong with those impertinent, gutless slaves to fashion who make today's oppressiveness look like grade-school work compared to what Jeebus has planned for the future. Shame on the lot of them!

Jeebus's exegeses are becoming increasingly repugnant. They have already begun to grant a free ride to the undeserving. Now fast-forward a few years to a time in which they have enabled Jeebus to destroy our sense of safety in the places we ordinarily imagine we can flee to. If you don't want such a time to come then help me bring Jeebus down a peg. Help me maximize our individual potential for effectiveness and success in combatting Jeebus.

No one has a higher opinion of Jeebus than I, and I think Jeebus's an uncouth, nettlesome spieler. Are you prepared to discuss this, Jeebus? It is pointless to fret about the damage already caused by his tasteless musings. The past cannot be changed. We must cope with the present if we hope to affect our future and perform noble deeds.

Even though Jeebus presents a public face that avoids overt solecism, if he had his way, schools would teach students that it is better that a hundred thousand people should perish than that Jeebus should be even slightly inconvenienced. This is not education but indoctrination. It prevents students from learning about how I have to laugh when Jeebus says that he can absorb mana by devouring his nemeses' brains. Where in the world did he get that idea? Not only does that idea contain absolutely no substance whatsoever but whenever anyone states the obvious—that most of us are now painfully aware of his subhuman adages—discussion naturally progresses towards the question, "Why can't he live among us in peace?" The answer has two parts to it. The first part regards the manner in which we are now stuck with a neo-frightful ruffianism bearing a human face—that of Jeebus H Christ. The second part of the answer is focused on the the way that much of our nation's history stands as shameful testament to the danger inherent in allowing Jeebus to galvanize a self-aggrandizing hysteria, a large-scale version of the yawping mentality that can fleece us. So what's the connection between that and his doctrines? The connection is that Jeebus's collaborators actually believe the bunkum they're always mouthing. That's because these types of rancorous muttonheads are idealistic, have no sense of history or human nature, and they think that what they're doing will somehow improve the world faster than you can say "cinephotomicrography". In reality, of course, there is no such thing as evil in the abstract. It exists only in the evil deeds of evil people like Jeebus.

I recently overheard a couple of longiloquent weasels say that truth is merely a social construct. Here, again, we encounter the blurred thinking that is characteristic of this Jeebus-induced era of slogans and propaganda. For a variety of reasons, some strategic, some ideological, some attitudinal, and all of them wrong, censorious misfits defy the law of the land. No one can claim to know the specific source of his nostrums, but he either is or elects to be ignorant of scientific principles and methods. Jeebus even intentionally misuses scientific terminology to incite young people to copulate early, often, and indiscriminately. Who is he to say that a totalitarian dictatorship is the best form of government we could possibly have?

Jeebus's assertions are as appealing as braces, acne, and a wooden leg at the senior prom. Now that's a strong conclusion to draw just from the evidence I've presented in this letter so let me corroborate it by saying that I welcome Jeebus's comments. However, Jeebus needs to realize that he likes to subvert our country's legal system. Such activity can flourish only in the dark, however. If you drag it into the open, Jeebus and his bootlickers will run for cover, like cockroaches in a dirty kitchen when the light is turned on suddenly during the night. That's why we must shed a little light on some of the ignorant prejudices that reside within Jeebus's pea-sized brain. To summarize my views: Mr. Jeebus H Christ tries to make his circulars more palatable by wrapping them in rhetoric about the need to protect the interests of the disadvantaged and the downtrodden.
S.Powers

Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
I am writing this letter because I recently heard some troubling news. Apparently, a large number of people actually believe Mr. GDavis's claim that he has a duty to conceal the facts and lie to the rest of us, under oath if necessary, perjuring himself to help disseminate the True Faith of factionalism. What follows is a call to action for those of us who care—a large enough number to convince cynical punks to stop supporting GDavis and tolerating his manuscripts. I laughed so hard I almost cried when he stated publicly that his personal attacks are all sweetness and light. You just can't make this stuff up—at least, not without noticing that GDavis's understrappers feel that "uneducated insurrectionists aren't ever stuck-up." First off, that's a lousy sentence. If they had written instead that it is cowardice on GDavis's part to suborn rabid egotists to give lunatics control of the asylum then that quote would have had more validity. As it stands, he drops the names of famous people whenever possible. That makes GDavis sound smarter than he really is and obscures the fact that he claims that his intimations enhance performance standards, productivity, and competitiveness. Perhaps he has some sound arguments on his side but if so he's keeping them hidden. I'd say it's far more likely that GDavis operates on an international scale to promote the lie of antagonism. It's only fitting, therefore, that we, too, work on an international scale, but to shatter the adage that GDavis is entitled to make my worst nightmares come true.

To most people, the list of GDavis's superstitious views reads like a comic strip but his jibes are actually taken seriously by his followers. There is a simple answer to the question of what to do about GDavis's sophistries. The difficult part is in implementing the answer. The answer is that we must shine a light on GDavis's efforts to impose a narrow theological agenda on secular society.

Somebody has to condemn—without hesitation, without remorse—all those who teach stultiloquent concepts to children. That somebody can be you. In any case, GDavis should learn to appreciate what he has instead of feeling so oppressed because he can't do everything he wants, every time he wants to. To some extent, his bootlickers have been staggering around like punch-drunk fighters hit too many times—stunned, confused, betrayed, and trying desperately to rationalize his ultra-ostentatious, disorderly paroxysms. It is unquestionably not a pretty sight.

We don't need to demonize GDavis; he is already a demon, and furthermore, he hates people who have huge supplies of the things he lacks. What GDavis lacks the most is common sense, which underlies my point that he has a knack for convincing postmodernist, execrable election-year also-rans that he can ignore rules, laws, and protocol without repercussion. That's called marketing. The underlying trick is to use sesquipedalian terms like "theoanthropomorphism" and "epididymodeferential" to keep his sales pitch from sounding illogical. That's why you really have to look hard to see that it's our responsibility to bring important information about GDavis's neurotic lamentations into the limelight. That's the first step in trying to solve the problems of demagogism, irreligionism, economic inequality, and lack of equal opportunity, and it's the only way to take stock of what we know, identify areas for further research, and provide a useful starting point for debate on his fickle, self-satisfied quips.

GDavis wants nothing less than to shrink the so-called marketplace of ideas down to convenience-store size. His foot soldiers then wonder, "What's wrong with that?" Well, there's not much to be done with randy lowbrows who can't figure out what's wrong with that, but the rest of us can plainly see that GDavis may be reasonably cunning with words. However, he is thoroughly homophobic with everything else.

I am making a pretty serious accusation here. I am accusing GDavis of planning to reduce us to acute penury. And I don't want anyone to think that I am basing my accusation only on the fact that one could truthfully say that he finds it easier to discuss other people's problems than his own. But saying that would miss the real point, which is that he must have recently made a huge withdrawal from the First National Bank of Lies. How else could GDavis manage to tell us that we should derive moral guidance from his glitzy, multi-culti, hip-hop, consumption-oriented maneuvers? I may be beating a dead horse here, but I do want to point out that we must fight GDavis hammer and tong. Our children depend on that.

That's a very important point; I will stop at nothing to open minds instead of closing them. My resolve cannot fully be articulated but it is unyielding. As evidence, consider that if my memory serves me correctly, I've heard GDavis say that my bitterness at him is merely the latent projection of libidinal energy stemming from self-induced anguish. Was that just a slip of the lip, or is GDavis secretly trying to compromise the free and open nature of public discourse? We already have our answer; as a respected journalist put it, "It is my intent to compile readers' remarks and suggestions and use them to fight scurrility and slander". She probably could have added that GDavis's primary goal is to acquire power and use it to indoctrinate exploitative slanderers. All of his other objectives are secondary to this one supreme purpose. That's why you must always remember that GDavis claims that skin color means more than skill and gender is more impressive than genius. I profess that the absurdities within that claim speak for themselves although I should add that my goal is to honor our nation's glorious mosaic of cultures and ethnicities. I will not stint in my labor in this direction. When I have succeeded, the whole world will know that GDavis maintains that he has the trappings of deity. Perhaps it would be best for him to awaken from his delusional, narcoleptic fantasyland and observe that if he thinks that obscurity, evasiveness, incomprehensibility, indirectness, and ambiguity are marks of depth and brilliance then maybe he should lay off the wacky tobacky.

Everything GDavis writes is larded with indiscriminate name dropping, the quality and quantity of which would embarrass the most shameless mover and shaker at your average literary cocktail party. No wonder that there are some basic biological realities of the world in which we live. These realities are doubtless regrettable, but they are unalterable. If GDavis finds them intolerable and unthinkable, the only thing that I can suggest is that he try to flag down a flying saucer and take passage for some other solar system, possibly one in which the residents are oblivious to the fact that I have some of GDavis's writings in front of me right now. In one of them, GDavis maintains that it is self-righteous to question his plans for the future. If you don't find that shocking then consider that some day, in the far, far future, GDavis will realize that that statement can be most easily defended, since it is not quantitative, but qualitative. This realization will sink in slowly but surely and will be accompanied by a comprehension of how all the deals GDavis makes are strictly one-way. GDavis gets all the rights, and the other party gets all the obligations.

So who's crazy? I, or all the delusional used-car salesmen who contend that GDavis can absorb mana by devouring his nemeses' brains? Before you answer, let me point out that this is not the place to develop that subject. It demands many pages of analysis, which I can't spare in this letter. Instead, I'll just state the key point, which is that we must soon make one of the most momentous decisions in history. We must decide whether to let GDavis convince others that blasphemous nudniks are the "chosen people" of scriptural prophecy or, alternatively, whether we should raise the quality of debate on issues surrounding his disingenuous canards. Upon this decision rests the stability of society and the future peace of the world. My view on this decision is that GDavis wants to prohibit any discussion of her attempts to treat traditional values as if they were unambitious crimes. While it is clear why he wants that to be a taboo subject, it's easy to tell if GDavis's lying. If his lips are moving, he's lying.

By this, I mean that GDavis had previously claimed that he had no intention to shame my name. Of course, shortly thereafter, that's exactly what he did. Next, he denied that he would paint people of different races and cultures as xenophobic alien forces undermining the coherent national will. We all know what happened then. Now, GDavis would have us believe he'd never ever introduce changes without testing them first. Will he? Go figure. My view is that GDavis's behind much of the sociopolitical indoctrination that goes on in many of our classrooms. If that fact hurts, get over it; it's called reality. And for another dose of reality, consider that GDavis's obloquies are indisputably uncalled for, and everyone with half a brain understands that. I would like to go on, but I do have to keep this letter short. So I'll wrap it up by saying that Mr. GDavis will go to almost any extreme to prevent my message of truth from getting out.
Binks

Social climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
Christians are distrusted because Christians don't do what Jesus says, they do what their church says -not the same thing at all. And they enter politics and give allegiance to scumbags just because they claim also to be Christians.
apogee

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
S Powers, knock that sh*t off! It's getting light now up there in AK- go outside and play!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
Amen, S. Powers!
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
It appears that S. Powers may have discovered a text-generation program, a la Doug Buchanan. Edit: Or perhaps he's quoting from someone.
S.Powers

Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
Apogee, yes sir!

I just got back from a kayak trip, its a beautiful day!
Binks

Social climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
Concerning Jesus...

"He was a troublemaker, still if we had known he was the son of god we wouldn't have killed him"

LOL

Saltydog

climber
NC
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
I just like the big bowl of free money that they always pass around during church service. christians rule!!
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
OOoooohhhh ooohhhhhh.... I wanna play too!

I don't hate Christianity, I don't hate catholicism, I don't hate jewism, I don't hate muslimism, I don't hate any of the 'isms.

I don't hate any of it.

Unlike 99% of the population, I grew up and realized that fairy tales aren't true.

By the way, just in case some of you haven't figured it out yet, Santa's not real either...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
It appears that S. Powers may have discovered a text-generation program, a la Doug Buchanan. Edit: Or perhaps he's quoting from someone.

Either way a pointless, boring rant generated by an "artificial" intelligence.
Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
christmas - jesus is born, we get presents

easter - jesus dies, we get candy

what's the problem?

+

don't waste time answering my rhetorical question. in case you guys didn't notice, i'm being facetious :P




=



Troll




Plain and simple





Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
This is a question that should be posted on an astronomer's forum.

The church has stopped burning astronomers, haven't they?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
I don't hate Christians, but it seems any social institution can be corrupted and not every member of something good is good themselves. Christian or not, we perceive the world through a kaleidescope.

-I post for your sins
MoshuaJOrgan

Boulder climber
Oklahoma City, OK
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:13am PT
A lot of ignorance in the comments. If you're going to single out Christianity for having the highest deathtoll, what you're really saying is catholicism. So there's that. Second off it is appalling that you would so easily without even consideration say that it would be a close race between how many people Catholicism has killed, and how many Communism has killed. That number is not even close, it's such an ignorant american view to not know anything of the horrors of Stalin's reign of terror. Stalin ruled Russia for 30 years and in that time it is estimated that he was directly responsible for 34 million deaths in russia. That is over a million a year. now, it is also estimated that 15 million of those deaths were Christians. Christians were captured and tortured, in hopes that they would give up their fellow christians. Read the book "Tortured for Christ" By Richard Wurmbrand.. In it are chilling personal accounts from Wurmbrand about being tortured by the Communist. For one Christian girl they waited until her wedding day to arrest her and then took her and the guards had their way with her. I am not defending the actions of the Catholic Church, and I will not defend the evil and corruption that has plagued certain protestant churches. But your statement of Christianity starting all wars and being responsible for the most deaths is preposterous and just shows how biased you are against Christianity. And lets not forget Hitler, and the Chinese rule that is still in charge today, as well as North Korea. Why does everybody hate Christians. Well the only answer I can give is that Jesus says in John 14 that since the world hated him, it will also hate his disciples.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:37am PT
native population of the americas prior to cathaholism?
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:15am PT
druid persecution by the romans in the british isles and western europe?
eKat

Trad climber
Less than a second shy of 49 minutes
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:33am PT
Oh, swell. . . what kind of a MORON resurrected this?

Oh look. . . it was a Never-Ever!

GO AWAY!

We don't need anymore crap like this!

:-(
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:47am PT
The adherents of a mass delusion are still delusional, no matter how much you sugar coat it.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:18am PT
Ekat...here's a short prayer for you..EEEE.YI yi i yi yi yi yi yi yi yi...RJ
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 11, 2013 - 03:58pm PT

Who cares?
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
It's not us, it's you... why are you so self conscious about it?

Charles
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Why was this thread resurrected?

You see what I did there?

Edit; Damn, I was beaten to the punch line. Oh well.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
why does everyone hate christianity so much?

after the many years of torment i have every right to effing hate em!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
"Why does everyone hate christianity so much?

 Because its a sham…?


It leads people to believe that there is something outside themselves that controls their lives instead of letting them know that they have a vested interest in creating their own lives and fates.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:52pm PT






; 0

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Hate the Christianity but love the Christian. That's how they do it, right?
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Why does everyone hate Christianity so much?



Because of generalization. Meeting one and assuming all others are the same.

So you meet a bad one and there goes the whole tribe.

Moral: Differentiate




Also - Never believe what you read about groups in the media. They only make money if the news is bad, alarming or a freak show. Truth is optional.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Yes it's a generalization, but you meet a lot of people who label themselves that way, that um aren't really the kind of people you want to deal with in a limited mammalian lifespan let alone, even worse, an afterlife!

Much of the concept kicks ass however.

Have you ever met someone who labels themselves "Christian" who isn't needy and manipulative?
I have, and hats off to those exceptions!!
But in general, the label of "Christian" means they have a lot farther route to go to prove themselves than, those that say something more open minded like, say, "undecided"
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
The 'born again' Christians I know tend to be very pushy about their beliefs.

I don't like preachy, pushy people.

That said, my old boss in Truckee is a Christian and I've spent a few Sunday mornings at church with him, his daughter, and wife. It was fun. Everyone was super nice, but I got the feeling that they were just trying to indoctrinate me into their club.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
Well Brandon if the daughter is hot it may be worth putting up with the dogma. This is a joke.[/burninginhellchashingdaughters]
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
His daughter was six at the time, I'm not a pedophile.

I was just good friends with the family.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Judge religions by their actions, not by their words.
Follow the money.
Since christians believe tales without evidence, they are not critical thinkers, and it's easy to get them to believe lies like WMD.
Why do christians hate everyone else?
If God hates [insert special interest group here], why does he need people to do it for him?
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I've been told by an informed Orange County minister that it's because we are all jealous of the Popes robe.

& I ( you ) have to admit that it is a mighty fine robe.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I like the Popes hat.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
All in all my sisters are full on christian conservatives and while we have different opinions on politics our thoughts on environmentalism, organic food, and climate change are spot on.

Weird stuff to be so dissimilar on politics and religion yet so inline with everything else, family is strange that way.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
Ani't that the truth.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
I think everyone hates christianity because some christians demand constant recognition and affirmation that they are beter than other christians and certainly more so than the non-believers..I think of the Pharasees...It's like a competition for some with their ego being the ultimate motivation rather than just being nice to other humans...A friend hit the nail on the head when he said that some of the christians he knows are pretty uptight and mean spirited...Christianity is a good thing but some of it's practioners aren't..
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
The Christian Bible should consist of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
That's it.

The old testament focuses on killing, not very christian.
jstan

climber
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Dingus suggested christians were doing nothing objectionable. The ACLU has an answer better than the one I gave.

"We wish to be allowed to make our own moral judgments."

Certain organizations wish to impose new restrictions upon us based upon their moral judgments.

This is a restriction of the rights of other citizens.

In many cases those asking for this increase in the powers given to government are, at the same time, complaining that government should be gotten out of our lives.

A shortfall in mental capability appears to be at work.

In old people this is called "diminished capacity".
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
2009: Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids

2010: Pope Benedict XVI clearly acknowledged on Tuesday that the need to prevent diseases like AIDS could outweigh the church’s long opposition to the use of condoms.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/world/europe/24pope.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_HIV/AIDS

It should be obvious that papal doctrine is fallible, is made up by old white guys, and has no divine guidance.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
Since christians believe tales without evidence, they are not critical thinkers,

I guess you'd lump Augustine, Galileo, (read his letters to his daughter some time)Rene Descartes, Newton, Webster, and on infinitum into that pot.


Western civilization and it's intellectual processes is the result of Christianity, no trivializing or escaping that.

Those that do so are the intellectuality dishonest equivalent of the creationist that insists that we are not really also primates.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
because of statements like this....

Western civilization and it's intellectual processes is the result of Christianity, no trivializing or escaping that.


edit: suppose it depends on your definition of 'civilization.'
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
Didn't Muslims pioneer mathematics BITD?

Answer; Yes.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
Nope, appropriated most of the concepts from the Greeks,

they did invent Al-gebra.

What contributions have they made in the last 600 years or so?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
Kindness, culture, to name two things.

Radicals exist in all societies, we shouldn't judge people on their lowest common denominator.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
It comes down to culture, (race has nothing to do with it)

Culture is driven by religion.

One tradition (Judeo, Christian)has produced more equality, productivity, higher standards of living and greater individual freedom than any other.

Results matter.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
The Christian culture is a violent one.

Who are we to judge?

Myself? I'm agnostic. I try to see the world through an impartial lens.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
they did invent Al-gebra

 Along with what in the west is called the Western Aribic (also Eastern Aribic) numerical systems…

The Hookah or Water Pipe…

The Guitar….

Coffee….

Many of today's common acids…

Here, don't believe me…. Watch Neil DeGrasse Tyson talk about the achievements of the Arib




What contributions have they made in the last 600 years or so?

 I think the answer to this is in direct relation to the last few sentences of Tyson's statements…. Religion got in the way and effectively stopped the progression of the advances made during that 300 year period Tyson initiates the video with….

So… Science Good for all human kind
Religion bad for human kind….
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Western civilization and it's intellectual processes is the result of Christianity, no trivializing or escaping that.


I have to agree with this.

After building up a disdain for Christianity I felt I was falling prey to prejudice. So I took up a Children's NIV Bible and read through the Old Testament and some of the New. (Need to finish.)

--First of all I wanted to understand something before hating on it. (Now I don't.)

--It is a fascinating historical/archeological artifact.

--If you like Sci-fi it is a classic.

--And lastly, our Western Civilization from the Urals west to the shores of Asia was built around it as a paradigm. Even modern secular scientific thinking owes it's history to it. (eg. Darwin was a devout Christian.)
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:23pm PT


Credit: locker
...


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
Darwin was a springboard toward modern science.

He was the last of his breed, meaning prolific scientific people being devout.

His discoveries disproved his faith.

Edit; I don't hate Christianity, I don't even dislike it. I simply dislike those who preach damnation to me because I don't prescribe to their beliefs, if that makes sense.
Psilocyborg

climber
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
Christians do not have the market cornered on being a stupid as#@&%e. Being a stupid as#@&%e transcends race, religion, and sexual orientation. This ain't rocket science!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:26pm PT

Kindness, culture, to name two things.

One more thing, their "bible" also says to kill all the infadels that don't believe in Mohammed.
This is taught to ALL Muslims. Just because they all don't take up this action doesn't mean that this sentiment isn't in their hearts and minds.

I don't want to start gett'in down on religions that arenot christian.. Wait a minute, yes I do.
To non- religious people looking in. You'll often hear from them that Christians think their better than everyone else because they're always Preach'in a better way. And they are the ONLY true church and all others are wrong. So depending on how the Christian shares this
"Good News", he can either come off as a humble servant, or an egotistical bastard.

So what's wrong with trying to share with ur brothers and sisters The God of Love and that He has a plan for your life.

And if you investigate into all the different religions you'll quickly see that they can't all be right.
They all have Jesus wrapped up in their story's. And once you get drawn in by Him it's entirely
up to you to continue and grow in a relationship with HIM! If the "religion" you are connected to isn't helping you to grow closer to HIM everyday. Then you might not belong to the "right" religion.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
It's amazing what a troll will bring out.

Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
God is the ocean and there are many rivers to get there. Inclusion and acceptance of all religions as different peoples find their chosen path to god, one God one world. He has many brands and everyone is right. Peace on Earth.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Have any of you dudes ever read Einstein, other than his purely scientific treatises? The genius has the clearest and most direct way of communicating his views on spirituality and humanity, I feel, of any secular writer in the last um several hundred centuries.

http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.html

Certainly the best way to go about plumbing the depths of the man's in...
Certainly the best way to go about plumbing the depths of the man's insight is to begin with this sampler.
Credit: Boggle Images
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:23pm PT

Since christians believe tales without evidence, they are not critical thinkers, and it's easy to get them to believe lies like WMD.
Why do christians hate everyone else?

WMD? I'm not sure what this means

Without evidence? I guess your a doughting Thomas. You have to see and touch Jesus to know he alive? Well without you ever knowing or meeting me, and I told you of a 200ft splitter handcrack in the middle of nowhere. And I told you it's the best ever, and drew you a map to get there. And after spending 3 days hiking to it, you climbed it. And in fact it was the best day of ur life! Wouldn't you believe me if I told you where's there another one even better?

For the Christian believer works off two pieces of evidence. First is the Truth. The bible is filled with the truth of man and his first hand experiences with God, and how God deals with mans problems. Within the understanding of the bible one is able to petition the Lord concerning
any spiritual circumztance he finds himself in.
Second, what the secular non believers can't fathom is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once you've asked Jesus into ur heart. Your mind and body will start going thru a transformation.
When your body has been cleansed and made "holy". You can pray and ask The Lord to baptize you with The Holy Ghost. When The HG enters your life it is unequivocally the biggest most provocative Truth that will be exposed to your awareness.

And it's this loving, caring Spirit that conjoins us Christians. And the Holy Spirit works thru us.
So we can SEE and feel His work in each others life's from our prayers and meditation.

This is our evidence
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:24pm PT

One tradition (Judeo, Christian)has produced more equality, productivity, higher standards of living and greater individual freedom than any other.







More than say, Buddhism?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus"


Ummmm, somebody got their story mixed up. Every point is the equivalent to the media's portrayal of climbing "how do they get the rope up there?"
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
Norton what's ur motivation? Just to bash Christianity?

Because if it is I'm not going to bother. I've already spent numerous posts in trying to help you understand where I'm coming from. And you continue to heap upon me YOUR conclusions of what you've come to understand as Christianity. I think your attitude comes from being brought up a roman gothic catholic, and you couldn't meet up to their standards. Well that's NOT Christianity! NOONE can be righteous unto the Law. And NOONE is made righteous
or condemned by their deeds.
Have you ever even known a spirit filled Christian?
Do you even know what the New Testament is to The Old Testament?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:41pm PT

More than say, Buddhism?

Buddhas great revelation was that suffering brings humility to the ego.
Even though Buddhism is a religion to some. It has no respect to any god or creator.
And has no opinion on the creation of the universe or life. It's just a practiced "religion"
on how to keep everyone at the same tone.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
Credit: The Larry
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:06am PT
there's a third leg to the western civilization stool that has been forgotten.

Anyone here know who Solon was? Or why he skipped town?


Draco? And the origin of the term Draconian?

Pericles?

Cato?




Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:11am PT
You are referring to the Greek leg of the stool. Everyone's favorite I think.


Voltaire might be the other leg.





Nice photo Locker. Pretty much says it all. ;-)
jstan

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:20am PT
Mike:
Norton is not dependent upon having a belief system.

That's as brief as I can make it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:21am PT
"The Skeptic's Annotated Bible" is finally in print!



http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_11?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=skeptics%20annotated%20bible&sprefix=Skeptics+an%2Cstripbooks%2C322&rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3Askeptics%20annotated%20bible

Frequently Bought Together:
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible
High Sierra Climbing, by C Mac


.....

Tooth, you're an embarrassment, you should know better. :(

.....

If Christianity or Islam survives the 21st century, it will only be because our education programs failed or because human civilization collapsed.

Remember this one?
It's Ovah for Jehovah.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:27am PT
^ From a review of the above book: ^
Positives:
1. Elegant and engaging conversational tone, a Guy Harrison trademark.
2. The most interesting topic of discussion, religion, in the hands of a master thinker. This book covers a wide range of Christian beliefs.
3. A well-researched book that is well referenced and cited.
4. An intellectual treat. Thought-provoking responses to interesting questions while never once being condescending or disrespectful.
5. This book is a challenge for Christians to think deeply about their beliefs. Harrison typically provides common apologetic answers and proceeds to dismantle them with lucid precision.
6. So many great reasons why skeptics walk away unconvinced from basic Christian claims. "Shouldn't the courage to accept reality as it is and not as we would prefer it to be an admirable quality?"
7. Religion and politics. "Asking people about their religion is not rude when they are the ones who made a big deal about it. It's not only appropriate to explore such extraordinary claims by candidates; in a democracy, it's a responsibility."
8. The efficacy of prayers. "The real world looks just like it might look if prayer didn't work and no gods existed."
9. Why everyone is an atheist..." As many skeptics point out over and over, everyone is an atheist. It's just a matter of degree. Nobody thinks every god is real."
10. Book contains many interesting results from surveys, "According to a 2009 survey by the Harris Poll®, 76 percent of adult Americans believe in miracles, and 95 percent of born-again Christians do."
11. The importance of keeping ignorance in perspective, "Common sense should tell us that our ignorance proves nothing, least of all the existence of gods."
12. Modern brain biology as it relates to beliefs, "Science has revealed much about the brain's ability to fool us into thinking we have physically experienced things that never really happened."
13. A look at prophecies. "According to the Bible, Jesus said he would return very soon, within the lifetimes of those people he was speaking to."
14. The Ten Commandments an interesting critical look and how it conflicts with the Constitution. "It's not about trying to insult God, oppressing anyone's religion, or refusing to acknowledge the significant role of Christianity in society. It is about recognizing that seeking to impose the very specific religious laws of some undermines fairness for all."
15. A really good chapter on Christianity's role in American history.
16. So was Hitler an atheist? And what does it prove? Find out.
17. Fine-tuning argument in a different light. "If our planet is fine-tuned for life, then why does life have such a hard time here?"
18. The difference between not believing and rejecting, "A typical atheist, for example, doesn't really "choose" to be a nonbeliever. She is a nonbeliever because she is not convinced that Jesus or any other gods exist. This is a very important point. Christians often confuse not believing in Jesus with rejecting Jesus, but the two are very different."
19. Evolution and how it relates to Christianity. "The problem with evolution lies with religion and culture, not with science."
20. Science and religion. "But they should not interpret the absence of scientific proof for scientific assault. Maybe it is not science in general that some Christians don't feel comfortable with; rather it is this absence of validation from science that bothers them."
21. Is religion good for societies? "There is no proof that more religion leads to less crime in a city, state, or country. In fact, a lot of good evidence points in the opposite direction."
22. Perhaps my favorite point of the book, "The Bible's greatest problem is not that it often makes God look like a deranged, bloodthirsty maniac, or even that it contains numerous errors. No, the real reason the Bible hasn't been able to convince everyone everywhere that Jesus is the only path to heaven is that it is poorly written and structured. Virtually everything about it is wrong if its purpose is to speak for God to the world."
23. How vision and memory works. "You can "see" past events happening in your head and have total confidence that they happened exactly that way--even though they didn't".
24. The problem of evil dissected. "It is beyond all reason that a god who is good and loves people would initiate and maintain a course of action that includes so much unjust harm to so many people."
25. The value of skepticism. "Good skeptics are people who make the decision to use their brains, to be honest, and to try their best to live in the real world--whatever world that may turn out to be. More than anything, being a good skeptic is about courage and commitment".
26. Excellent notes and comprehensive bibliography.

Negatives:
1. I would have liked a table on say the twenty most popular Christian denominations and their most distinctive qualities.
2. A couple of questions that I was hoping would be asked. What is the soul? What is a spirit?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:30am PT
People hate Christianity because the followers preach and are ordered to by following the friggin gospel...

... stop preaching!
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:34am PT
stop preaching ...
HELL, stop retarding progress



NONSENSE FROM THE BIBLE
The author of this book, Brian Baker, was a 'born again' fundamentalist Christian for seventeen years. For ten of those years he was the founding pastor of one of Australia's largest churches (1979-89). Following the failure of his marriage, he resigned from the ministry and then spent the following few years seriously examining his faith and the veracity of the Bible. Finally he came to the conclusion that his Christian beliefs were seriously flawed and that the Bible is entirely the result of human invention, imaginations and myths passed down from generation to generation. As the Bible is then based on 'hearsay' and written by at least 40 different authors over a period of up to 1,600 years, none of whom were eyewitnesses to the events they recorded, it cannot substantiate the claim that it was 'inspired by God.'

The result of Brian's search for evidence caused a personal transformation from believer to realist, rationalist, skeptic and atheist. He published his first book - From Faith to Reason - in 2009 which contains the reasons why he no longer believes in the existence of God, angels, demons, the devil, heaven, hell or an afterlife.

In this book - Nonsense from the Bible - Brian uses the Bible texts to demonstrate their inaccuracies, inconsistencies, contradictions and fantasies. He deals with major issues which are widely believed and accepted as factual events such as the Creation story, the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus and the prophecies concerning Jesus. Chapters are also devoted to the question of the second coming of Jesus and Christian Family values. Brian also totally invalidates the so-called 'power of prayer' and the claims that God heals the sick.

http://www.amazon.com/NONSENSE-FROM-THE-BIBLE-ebook/dp/B0090810JI/ref=sr_1_7/177-6564744-2992756?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376281293&sr=1-7&keywords=skeptics+annotated+bible
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:44am PT
What's the difference between a cult and a religion? About 100 years.
TY
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:01am PT
People,
This is a prime example of what Catholicism does to ya. It was invented some 500 yrs after Christ rose. It was a means to SHOW the illiterate people how they could perform and DO
acts to be Christ-like. This is a very slippery slope. And is very much against what Jesus taught. And is not apart of the true bible. So the Catholics, along with the mormans, and the Muslims had to rewrite and add more books to the bible to justify their teachings. These religions teach that you must live a certain way, and only do certain things to be justified by God. And if you do do something wrong, they will tell you what you must do to make it up to God inorder to be forgiven. This makes sense in the WORLD where you earn a dollar and you can spend a dollar. And the theory of an eye for an eye. That's why God said the old testament was just a shadow of things to come. Meaning the new testament. And the glory of Jesus. He paid the full price for ALL our wrong doings! So we don't have to DO anything to make it right before Gods eyes other than to point towards Jesus. Hallelujah!
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:37am PT
I could never hate or dislike any of you as much as you seem to me and my faith. I couldn't ever really imagine having feelings like Riley's. Couldn't bring myself to harbor such hurtful fellings towards another. Must be pretty heavy for all of you to carry around.


Here's an interesting take on Christianity from a professed atheist. It's the dude Penn....from Penn and Teller. You may have seen it. If not, take a look and let me know what you think.




Just an honest perspective that I appreciated when I saw it.
-Scott
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:47am PT
What a fresh, innovative concept!

A forum discussion, in which, one side...pretending to be lambs...accuse the other...

of being WOLVES!




But what is the prize?

The title of "Master Thinker"... or merely entitlement to one's own sense of self-righteousness?


:-)
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:57am PT

I could never hate or dislike any of you as much as you seem to me and my faith.


Just a private reflection, Scott...I doubt anyone,here, sustains any hatred for you, personally. You've been a positive presence since I joined...
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:06am PT
The problem for most of us is when these beliefs, of yours and others, affect our politics, our environment,policy, government, our lives and all of our futures.
Exactly. Religion should be private.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:15am PT
Voltaire might be the other leg.


Voltare is way too late, Commentator on, not driver of.


There was no pretense of separation of academia and religion until well after the Civil War. But for a handful of exceptions, all of the universities and colleges were seminaries for various sects.

Religion doesn't start really to disappear from academia until the influx of European academic exiles in the early twentieth century.
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:55am PT

He's not the messiah. He's a very naughty boy.

http://www.wbir.com/news/article/283997/2/Judge-orders-babys-name-be-changed-from-Messiah
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:41am PT
I could never hate or dislike any of you as much as you seem to me and my faith. I couldn't ever really imagine having feelings like Riley's. Couldn't bring myself to harbor such hurtful fellings towards another. Must be pretty heavy for all of you to carry around.

You choose to associate yourself with those who believe that torturing and killing gays is fine. You personally believe in prohibiting people from having equal civil rights. You do not believe in the right of people to peacefully and privately practice their beliefs....you believe that you should convert them. You tell them that they will go to hell, that their children will go to hell.

I don't know how more hateful you could be.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
^^^^ that's a pretty damning personal acusation. Got any evidence to back that up? I looked through some of his old posts and saw nothing remotely resembling such a mindset. You probably owe him an apology.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
A Jew, Italian, and Greek arrive at the Pearly Gates. All three beg for another life on Earth. God decides to agree on three conditions...

(1. The Jew must restrain from being a penny-pincher.

(2. The Italian must restrain from eating spaghetti for the rest of his new life.

(3. The Greek must stop being a homosexual.

If they break these rules they go to hell. ((So there IS a hell! This is valid proof for some. For others just a point of departure in their denial of it's possibility. To quote Oliver STone, "Hell is the impossibility of reason."))

They all think about it and they agree and become friens since they arived in heaven together. ((In the days of pigs flying...))

Five years later all three are walking together and they are on edge because they what to do what god told them to do. The group passes an Olive Garden and the Italian leaves the pack and eats spaghetti. Poof! The Italian goes to hell.

So the Jew and Greek continue to walk down the street. The Jew sees a penny on the sidewalk and he can't resist. As the Jew bends over they both go to hell.

Three-legged races are hard. Five-legged races, almost impossible for more than short distances, but if they want to really compete, two legs gotta go. But do the other two gang up on him? No. They start accusing each other of slacking, too. It doesn't matter which pairs with which, none of them are capable of getting along for mor than a few yards together.

Accept it and stop arguing among yourselves.

Many of you are acting like babies, jackasses, and overbearing egos.


I do it at times myself, so I know.

I believe God will provide,however, no matter who or what he is. Truly I do. But he doesn't provide answers, gentlemen.

Don't try to "settle" anything, just learn to be tolerant.

It's what your teachers and the more enlightened among religious leaders have tried to tell you ALL YOUR LIVES! (Pyro, and some others as bitter, you may have reasonably understandable angst and hate, that's cool, bro.)

If I were your dad, however, and I'm glad I'm not,...

Thank you.

Now I'm ready for a popcorn bloat.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
I could never hate or dislike any of you as much as you seem to me and my faith. I couldn't ever really imagine having feelings like Riley's. Couldn't bring myself to harbor such hurtful fellings towards another. Must be pretty heavy for all of you to carry around.

You choose to associate yourself with those who believe that torturing and killing gays is fine. You personally believe in prohibiting people from having equal civil rights. You do not believe in the right of people to peacefully and privately practice their beliefs....you believe that you should convert them. You tell them that they will go to hell, that their children will go to hell.

I don't know how more hateful you could be. ....

^^^^ that's a pretty damning personal acusation. Got any evidence to back that up? I looked through some of his old posts and saw nothing remotely resembling such a mindset. You probably owe him an apology.


I think it's perfectly fair actually. If you claim to be Christain then we can assume many things about you. Esspecially if we understand the religious beliefs equated with Christainity. If you are going to claim to be Christain, you should be prepared to stand behind it's tenants and face the scrutiny of doing so. I personally belive Christains are not sane, how can they possibly belive in a magical sky wizard in this day and age? If they are ignorant to the science and knowledge human kind has gathered, fine. But it's there if you bother to ask the right questions, and ignorance is nothing but a choice in this the information age. I also personally believe sane people, when faced with the truth, will make a logical and sound decision regarding faith in things which simply are not there, so Christians are either lazy or insane. You have to remember these are the same people who feel superior enough to judge others, to damn them to hell, and to label them incomplete if we do not believe the same thing they do (insert middle finger facing sky here). When in reality the opposite is true. Religion spreads ignorance, it hinders the growth of mankind's evolution and progress toward a better world, religion is destructive. It's about time those of us who feel strongly about it speak up and be heard. It's about time that the social stigma of not being a cult member is broken, it's time for mankind to outgrow religion, faith and prayer...We understand more about the world around us than you could possibility imagine. Too bad you have wasted your life studying a meaningless book instead of learning the language of science so you could even fathom or understand the findings and progress we have made. It is a thousand times more miraculous and fascinating than anything the mind can conjurer and imagine, why? because it's actually true...

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
"why do I hate Christianity so much?"
That's pretty presumptuous. I don't "hate" Christians, Christianity nor any other religion (excepting of course the real control freaks such as Scientologists, Branch Davidians and their ilk).

I'll leave you alone as long as you:
Don't try to make others live by your silly notions. In other words, stay the F**K out of my (and every one else's) government.
Applies to: the Mormon State of Utah, Christian fundamentalists, Islamic fundamentalists.

Stay the F**K out of my child's schools (see the above).

Don't try to bend public policy to your superstitions:
Birth control, abortion, evolution, climate change. (see my child's schools)
Ronald Reagan and His Acolytes; George W Bush and Tony Blair (God told me to go get Saddam) and their toadies.

Don't discriminate:
Racial discrimination: see Mormon Religion
Religious discrimination: see most fundamentalists. "We're better (more righteous) than you other wankers who are by implication sinners". and "You godless atheists are the WORST of the lot and your souls will burn in Hell". My soul certainly won't burn in my non-existent Hell.

Don't discriminate against Women
When half the Cardinals and the Pope are women the Catholic church can claim to speak for women. Until then stay the F**K out of their vaginas, educational and job opportunities and rights to political office.
Ditto the Mormon Church.
Ditto most (not all) Islamic sects.
Especially Polygamists (I have the dubious distinction of going to high school with at least one).

Don't proselytize: you leave me alone and I'll leave you alone
See all of the above, especially the Mormon Church.

The Fundamental foundations of most religions, INCLUDING Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, most flavors of Christianity boil down to: Take care of each other, Respect each other, we're all Brothers (and Sisters).

OR as George Carlin famously said:
And so, with all of this in mind, folks, I offer you my revised list of the Two Commandments:

First:
•THOU SHALT ALWAYS BE HONEST AND FAITHFUL, ESPECIALLY
TO THE PROVIDER OF THY NOOKIE.

And second:

•THOU SHALT TRY REAL HARD NOT TO KILL ANYONE, UNLESS,
OF COURSE, THEY PRAY TO A DIFFERENT INVISIBLE AVENGER
THAN THE ONE YOU PRAY TO.

Two is all you need, folks. Moses could have carried them down the hill in his pocket. And if we had a list like that, I wouldn't mind that brilliant judge in Alabama displaying it prominently in his courthouse lobby. As long he in­cluded one additional commandment:

•THOU SHALT KEEP THY RELIGION TO THYSELF!!!

From George Carlin – When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops (2004)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Western civilization and it's intellectual processes is the result of Christianity, no trivializing or escaping that.

Is that the result of the church burning scientists?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
The life of a person who sincerely believes in Christianity and walks a life with Jesus Christ compelling him or her should be marked by the following:

Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness and Self Control
(I can't see what isn't to like about that. Let alone hate, despise, dislike, ridicule or be bothered by)

No way around it. Though we all sometimes fail to let these things shine, it should be the overwhelming course of our lives.

Some reading for those who haven't seen of some of what's going on in Nepal lately. Hope you dig it.

-Scott

A Trip Report about one of our trips to Nepal a couple years back
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/To-Nepal-and-Back-Again-and-Back-Again-A-Trip-Report/t10520n.html
Credit: micronut


Also, an honest question.....is much of what you feel/believe about Christianity based on personal experience with friends and family who are Christians, or your politcal worldview driven by media, reading,, etc....
ie: What you hear about Christianity rather than first hand relationships?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Well put Squishy.

.....

I can't see what isn't to like about that.

Your bronze age truth-claims influence, otherwise obstruct, our culture, our politics and laws, our education systems, our thinking on important community, national and global issues, our problem solving ability on same - that's enough. And growing numbers are getting sick and tired of it.

is much of what you feel/believe about Christianity based on personal experience with friends and family who are Christians, or your politcal worldview driven by media, reading,, etc....

ANS How about a modern 21st century science (evidence and reason) based understanding of how things work.

You need to wake up.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
It is great to help other people, good work in Nepal. Helping others however can be done without belief in a dogma that has no basis in fact.

That is what we atheists find repulsive.

Blind belief in unfounded logic is completely unpalatable to a person of science.

You going to 3rd world countries and helping the poor does not convince a scientist that your beliefs are valid or appropriate for the advancement of mankind. But keep doing it, I'm sure those people really appreciate your work.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Christianity is far too broad of term to make any sweeping generalizations.

It's been around for two thousand years, involves billions of people over that time and had been influenced by countless cultures and world leaders.

There is no single "Christianity." There has not been for very long time.

It's silly to try and make any conclusions about Christianity in general.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
No, that is silly.

Christians are supernaturalists. A mere step removed from astrologers. There. That for starters.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
Micronut, would you be performing such service to the Nepalis if you were not acting as a Christian?

I suspect you would be doing your good work regardless of your belief mechanism.
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
High Fructose,

That photo's funny man. Solid.
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Todd,

That's a good question. I'm not really sure. Maybe not actually. I have always been one who's high risk to try and achieve the "American Dream." I'd love to just keep makin' money and taking trips to great places and buyin' my wife all kinds of cool stuff for the great woman she is. I'd probably buy a bigger house. And a boat...cause I love boats. But I don't have one, and I choose to give a great deal of my time and resources and money to go do things that are really hard for me because I am compelled to through the Holy Spirit (sorry to get all hocus pocus on yall). It's definitely not in my wiring to go do this stuff, and sometimes it's not even that rewarding knowing we are helping so little in such a broad area of misfortune and poverty. If it weren't for the active work of Christ in my life I believe I would be generally self centered, seeking my own well being, my own wealth and health and joy for the sake of myself. It's Christ who compels me and changes me. Who shows me to love others, to put down my desires and go and help those who are in need. To show kindness and goodness to those without hope, be it here in the states or in a cave on the Tibetan border. It's been my personal transformation from selfish to unselfish in general that makes me think this way. I could not have done it alone.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
why does everyone hate christianity so much?

The question really should be rephrased:

Why does everyone hate true Christianity so much?


Read your Bible. The answer is plain to see. The sign of the times.



Eph.6:12
Eph.6:1-18 (KJV)
[1] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
[2] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
[3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
[4] And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
[5] Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
[6] Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
[7] With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
[8] Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
[9] And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
[10] Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
[11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
[14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
[15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
[16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
[18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;




John 15:18
John.15:1-19 (KJV)
[1] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
[14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
[15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
[16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
[17] These things I command you, that ye love one another.
[18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
[19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.




Matt. 24:12
Matt.24:1-14 (KJV)
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.




So who's side are you on? HaShem's or Lucifer's? No matter what you do you're taking a side whether you know it or not, want to or not.

I stand with HaShem Adonai Elohim: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

How about you?
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Dr. F
For the record

1. Abortion: I'd believe it was killing a child even if I wasn't a Christian. I've felt that since embryology class (brutally hard class by the way) in my pre-med days.

2. Climate Change: A real problem. Undeniable. It's happening. I'm doing my part when I can even if it's just a drop in the bucket.

3. Evolution: Micro...yes. Undeniable and a beautiful thing. Macro....between species. I know for a fact you can't prove this one, you're gonna need to show me the "jump." So its a theory. Let's be open minded, like a good scientist should be, to other options eh?

4. Prayer in Schools. All kids of all religions should be allowed to pray in schools at any time and this shouldn't bug you much since it seems Christian prayer in schools is on the way out.

5. Abstinence. You mind if your daughter sleeps around? That's cool. I have been faithful to one woman my whole life and I hope and pray my children are. Its a wonderful way to be in and honor your spouse. Does that bother you?

6. Anti-Science? I have two doctorates, one in bone physiology with publications in three journals and I lecture to grand rounds at my local hospital. I'm a scientist every day, living it out in private surgical practice. I love Science. I can draw you the Kreb's Cycle if you want. I did malate. Its my favorite.

care to respond to any of these? I think its a good conversation.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
So who's side are you on? HaShem's or Lucifer's? No matter what you do you're taking a side whether you know it or not, want to or not.

I stand with HaShem Adonai Elohim: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

How about you?

Neither. Your imaginary friend and your imaginary enemy are equally bogus constructs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Anti-Science? I have two doctorates, one in bone physiology with publications in three journals and I lecture to grand rounds at my local hospital. I'm a scientist every day, living it out in private surgical practice. I love Science. I can draw you the Kreb's Cycle if you want. I did malate. Its my favorite.

Compare:

Anti-climbing? I have two certificates, one in TR and one in belay. I'm a climber every day, living it out in RockSport in Reno. I love climbing. I can draw you topos of the yellow and green routes. I did green just yesterday. It's my favorite.

The point: There's a great deal more to science than (just) bone physiology or (just) the Kreb cycle.

But you are an enigma. I do wonder, as I have in the past, just how much biochem, molecular biology, pharm, neuro, genetics, actually entered your thinking, your beliefs. Because it seems not much for you and your thinking and your beliefs not to be constrained by understanding of their basic processes, mechanisms of action, etc.. Same goes with what you said about evolution. Seems to me, for some reason or another, you're ignoring wide swaths of info or knowledge from the sciences as you attempt to rationalize your beliefs in the supernatural.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
The life of a person who sincerely believes in Christianity and walks a life with Jesus Christ compelling him or her should be marked by the following:

Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness and Self Control
(I can't see what isn't to like about that. Let alone hate, despise, dislike, ridicule or be bothered by)

No way around it. Though we all sometimes fail to let these things shine, it should be the overwhelming course of our lives.

The key word is SHOULD. The problem is that it is so RARE. In reality, I find such people *by my personal experience* filled with hate for others, envy of others, blame of others, biased treatment of others. That's a daily experience.

Christians have a very very long history of intolerance of others, to the point of killing and enslaving.
Abissi

Trad climber
MI
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Someone (George Mallory I think it was) said If you have to ask the question you'll never understand the answer. I a currently working on my Masters degree in theology (Hey, I'm now 56 years old so I am taking the extended plan) and from what I am reading there is a great myriad of questions being asked here, not just one.

Who can't love a God who says things like "your sins are forgiven you for his namesake" (I John 2:12) or "In all these things we are more than conquerors" (Romans 8:37) or how about, "This is the promise that He has promised you, eternal life" (I John 2:25)

A lot of harm has been done in the world in the name of Christianity, Most of these so called christians can't tell you how many gospels are in the canon (4). It's too bad that the misbehaviour of some is assumed to be the standard of conduct for the many. In the first century Christianity was one unified faith, Today there are more different"religions" than there are stocks on the New York Stock Exchange. If people got away from the traditions that have been handed down to them and got back to the one standard of faith and practice, The Bible, then we wouldn't see questions like "why does everyone hate christianity so much".

I hope everyone doesn't start hating me because of my christianity. I prefer to think of myself as everybody's pal.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Oh no! Abisis wrote
I am currently working on my Masters degree in theology.

Get out now! The only silver lining here is that you are 56, not 26!

For sure, ASAP, check out Daniel Dennett (lecture, youtube) on the wasted life and tragedy of becoming a theologian!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bwe7TIv4LY
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
For you High Fructose. What's your first name anyway man? C'mon. Give it up for the sake of discussion.
My Citric Acid cycle is from memory from many years ago, so any of yall science types can give some grace if I botched any of it please.
Credit: micronut
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
Who can't love a God who says things like "your sins are forgiven you for his namesake" (I John 2:12)

Anyone who doesn't make the mistake of conflating bad behavior with an imaginary abstract absolute invented to evoke guilt and instill unquestioning obedience.

or "In all these things we are more than conquerors" (Romans 8:37)

Anyone who who isn't obsessed with dominating their dominators.

or how about, "This is the promise that He has promised you, eternal life" (I John 2:25)

Anyone who's quite content with the prospect of death being the definitive end of his or her personal consciousness and identity.

On the other hand, if any of those things really bug ya, by all means find solace where you can. Just stop annoying the rest of us with the holier than thou schitck. It doesn't work.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
I was a confirmed roman catholic, a student of Christianity from a private Christian school, complete with itchy uniforms. In high school I became very active in the catholic church, running small youth groups, volunteering for retreats and missions to Mexico. For a time it was my life and I felt so strongly I toyed with the idea of becoming a servant of the church, then I grew older and the doubts creep in. I began looking for my own answers, as we all should. I attended every church in town, listened and tried to feel them out (the mormon glare was too much to bare). I began studying all the religions, trying to find out why mine said all the others were false. I found most of them were actually just mirrors of each other, separated by futile earthly reasons. The Prophets just had different names.

That led me to anthropology and history, which are still my favorite subjects (California history in particular). My high school friends had the same doubts after being dragged to church as children, some of them went into the sciences. They taught me things indirectly as they progressed over the years through school, they passed on their knowledge and tried to enlighten me on what they had learned. Of course it was way over my head considering the advanced level of their knowledge but I trust someone who has dedicated their life to a subject (hell, call it faith), making life long sacrifices for the development of a theory or the advancement of mankind. Most scientists don't even have time for children in this society. Molecular biologists, chemists and basic researchers know more about a drop of water than they can explain to you in a week (mainly because you lack the vocabulary). It is said that biology is only true under the light of evolution. There are very few people on this earth who understand the mechanics of life and still believe in a magical sky wizard. So it could be said that I have listened to others on the subject and taken their opinion and knowledge at face value. But I also don't want to spend 10 years learning the subject enough to understand the details of what they were telling me. We listen to those more knowledgeable than ourselves for the purpose of efficiency, and yes, you do risk getting biased opinions.

Since I began doubting what I heard from the pulpit I have worked to educate myself and I have a vast library of religious texts and anthropology books. I began my journey before the internet, but it's even easier for people to get the truth now (or the opposite). I am not a scientist, hell I didn't even go to college or take advanced classes in high school. But I do know that there's people who did and we should listen to them, we should read and study their data and findings that are published in respected scientific journals every day. The science community is scrambling every day to prove each other wrong (peer review), they fight for very limited funding, and they fight to further their line of research and subject of study. To discredit someone who knows a sh#t load more about something than you is another ignorant act unless you have some real data to back it up and religion has never had any data, only faith.

You simply do not know what you do not know, and all I have truly learned through the years is that I don't know sh#t, but I do know it's best to ask questions, find out for yourself, go ask the people who have dedicated their lives to finding the answers. To listen for one moment to a man on a pulpit tell you about science or even hint that science "could" be wrong, shows just how ignorant believers truly are. If I heard one peep of science being muttered from a pulpit I would walk out, even if the massage was a positive one, filled with subjective love and warm fuzzies. It's time we transcended what is really going on, and that is the spread and propagation of ignorance from anti-scientists.

AND!! To raise our children in such fear and ignorance is paramount to child abuse in light of what we know and understand about the world, and I will stand by that statement with every fiber of my being. My daughter will hear the truth at every corner, every question she has will be answered with the truth (I may have to google a lot of it), and it does not matter her age, if she is old enough to ask the question, she will get THE answer. Anything less is a disservice to the future of our species and those who came before us to gather that knowledge. She will not be baptized (at the protest of several grandparents) she will not go to church. The bible will be there on the shelf if she is curious. It's right next to the Quran, the I Ching, and lots of other fascinating books from our history.


Science is not a belief, institution, group of people or a book. It's a methodology, a process which is uniform and consistent. It seeks reproducible data through a systematic process and it does not answer questions, it seeks only to disprove theory and hypotheses. The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as: "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses." Therefore, science does not prove anything, it only tries to dis-prove, and when it fails to do so, it inadvertently tells us about our world. When it cannot disprove an idea, it sticks with us and is assumed true until it is dis-proven or new data is added (see peer review above). This is why we call it The Theory of Evolution still, because science does not ever claim to have the answer, only factual data gathered through the scientific method. The religious people in this world who listen to the man on the pulpit who tells them science is the devils work, are some of the most ignorant people on this planet. 1st of all, they believe science claims to have answers, displaying a lack of knowledge about even the subject of the scientific method itself. They hinder and stifle scientific research and progress in the name of a fairy tale. They hold a country and it's future generations hostage in the name of a magical sky wizard.

Yes I am filled with hateful thoughts on the matter, but not hate for a people or person. It is hate for an ideology and it's results. And it's not a burden, I feel it's a blessing. It is said somewhere in a book I once read (the bible), that wisdom only gives grief, it is the price of knowledge. I hate the fact that people fall for religion still, I hate the fact that I once fell for it, and I hate the damage it has done, is doing and will continue to do, to the progress of mankind and the world. If you could place yourself in my shoes a moment, take my point of view on the subject, would you not also feel strongly about it? If you were able to transcend the history of society from an anthropological point of view taking into account the negative influence region has had over everything, you may feel that hatred as well. And if you have not asked the questions, sought the answers and thought critically about it, how can you fault someone who has? Or the resulting feelings? It's time we sane people of the world pulled out our text books, our databases and our reproducible results and bashed the sh#t out of the believers as they have done to us since the beginning of grief and the invention of faith and prayer.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

opps, too late...guess what..it's coming right back at cha..


If you are interested in educating yourself on the subject, I suggest seeking and finding our current theories on the anthropological history of religions. It is fascinating and dare I say in light of my post, blasphemous...




Abissi

Trad climber
MI
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Citune - Holier than thou? hey I'm in the real world just a humble climber, I'm sorry if your offended
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
A lot of harm has been done in the world in the name of Christianity, Most of these so called christians can't tell you how many gospels are in the canon (4). It's too bad that the misbehaviour of some is assumed to be the standard of conduct for the many. In the first century Christianity was one unified faith, Today there are more different"religions" than there are stocks on the New York Stock Exchange. If people got away from the traditions that have been handed down to them and got back to the one standard of faith and practice, The Bible, then we wouldn't see questions like "why does everyone hate christianity so much".

Amazing confession of blindness..
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
I sure wouldn't want to spend my time in heaven with a bunch of forgiven rapists, murders & conn artists.


Worse -- to have to spend time on earth with long winded defenses of god on a TROLL.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
Squishy - Epic post!

Science is not a belief, institution, group of people or a book.

FACT: If you read a book of science, and believe it, rather than observe it for yourself, you are following a belief.


Many people today who claim to be secular have placed their faith in science.

It is therefore just another religion.


Atheism is utterly dependent on God so has to actively disbelieve.


Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Many people today who claim to be secular have placed their faith in science.

That has got to be one of the stupidest things you fairytale believers have ever come up with.
TwistedCrank

climber
Bungwater Hollow, Ida-ho
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Baby Jesus fukkin rawks.

Credit: TwistedCrank
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
The key word is SHOULD. The problem is that it is so RARE. In reality, I find such people *by my personal experience* filled with hate for others, envy of others, blame of others, biased treatment of others. That's a daily experience.

Christians have a very very long history of intolerance of others, to the point of killing and enslaving.

Aye. There's the rub! Christians have a long history of sin. If we didn't, the Gospel would not be good news.

I became a Christian because of the change I saw in the lives of other Christians I knew. A Christian without a changed life has a dead faith. Frankly, the sanctimony exhibited by so many Christians turned me off for a couple of decades.

Christians are called to be witnesses of Christ. As such, we need to remember two things: (1) Only the Holy Spirit can convert a person. We can tell the good news and present our lives as a living sacrifice, but neither our lives nor our words alone will cause conversion; and (2) We will be maligned as long as we oppose the World.

Tempted though I am to respond to what I consider baseless insults -- particularly insults of the intellect of Christians -- I see no need. The readers can determine for themselves whether the Christian responders to this thread have less of an intellectual capacity than their scoffers. In any case, words on a forum carry little weight compared with observation of our lives.

I just wish I were better up to that challenge.

John
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Most of the problems folks have with religions is the often not-to-subtle judgememnt coming from the faithful that lest you believe as they do, there is something wrong if not downright evil in your character, somethng wonderful they have and you don't, and untill you do ,you are at a loss, to say nothing of being damned.

In a broad sense, this is cultish thinking, believing that one religious source has an exclusive or privileged knowledge about God, love, morality, human nature, et al. That is one of the earmarks of most doctrine-driven religions: We alone are "right," are God's Chosen Ones. When this is married to faux humility, tenderly delivered, it becomes terribly passive-aggressive and blindly evil and unconscious - a virus to mankind.

Many people can see religious exclusivism for what it is - us humans seeking allies for what lights our lamp. Others intuit this as a put down and a threat to their being in some way.

In fact it's just humans being humans. No one has an exclusive on anything. Ever. But we have every reason to want on.

JL
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
is much of what you feel/believe about Christianity based on personal experience with friends and family who are Christians,

YES (assuming Mormons are Christians, which many fundamentalist christians deny)

Growing up in the Theistic Mormon State of Utah. Spending many evenings discussing religion with my adolescent church group (yes, I was a skeptical "christian"). Plenty of Mormon and Christian friends, some of them close friends.
Personally knowing (in high school) a polygamist and talking to some of his wives several years ago.

Watching fundamentalists (in other states) trying to foist creationism on school districts as a valid alternative to evolution.

As an example of religious belief interfering in public life.
The Book of Mormon states that Negros are the marked descendants of Ham. Until 1978, they couldn't hold the Priesthood.
From Brigham Young in 1849
"What chance is there for the redemption of the Negro?" Young responded, "The Lord had cursed Cain's seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood."[1]

From 1849 to 1978, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) had a policy against ordaining black men to the priesthood, and forbidding black men and women from taking part in ceremonies in LDS temples. Associated with this policy were various statements by church leaders tying the policy to their view of scripture, and opining that black men and women had inherited the curse of Ham. In 1978, President Spencer W. Kimball, the leader of the LDS church, declared in a statement known as "Official Declaration—2" that the ban had been lifted.
Both quotes from Wikipedia. Plenty of references if you want to read the whole history of THAT nonsense.
Could the plurality of Mormons who believed that black men and women couldn't hold the priesthood have been free of racial discrimination in their associations outside church? I really doubt it. Could they have freed themselves of racial discrimination after 1978? Not easily and certainly not quickly.

Now there are PLENTY of rational, non-discriminatory Mormons, including friends of mine. But there are also the "Book of Mormon is Literal" Mormans who I'd call "fundamentalist". And much worse, the Fundamental Church of Latter Day Saints (FDLS) who practice polygamy.

I'm not Anti-all Christianity, nor Anti-any religion in particular (with a few exceptions for the real wackos including FLDS).
Just don't pretend that all the stuff you read in the religious texts is "real" or describes real history or worse yet our present world. They are mostly fine stories, some are useful and guiding parables, and some are just ancient myths selected to keep the sheep in line.

Believe in God (whoever that is)
Believe in Christ, Buddha, Joseph Smith (they were all real people but who was Most Divine?)
Take Christ's teachings (whatever they really were) as moral guides for your own life. Don't forget the Old Testament was Jewish and most Jews don't take it all literally. Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt?

Just don't try to dictate how to run a modern society on ancient, mythical shibboleths.
Homosexuality is a sinful choice rather than a natural feeling for a percentage of the human race?
Women can't control their reproductive choices? Dictated by Male hegemonies such as Congress and the Catholic church.
Creationism should be taught as a alternative to evolution?

Next thing you know, the fundamentalist christians will be claiming Global Warming/Climate Change must be a hoax because God wouldn't do that. Oh, wait, He destroyed Sodom and Gomorroh, fossilized Lot's wife. Perhaps He IS behind global warming. To punish homosexuals, liberals, muslims and us godless atheists. After all, He promises milk and honey (and many wives for Mormons and Muslims) in heaven for the True Believers.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
If you read a book of science, and believe it, rather than observe it for yourself, you are following a belief.
BS
I've never counted out 123 pennies and 234 nickels, then put them in a pile and counted the result. But I know the result would be 357. Reason and logic are not a belief.

What kind of science/math retard says "a book of science", anyway? You might say a book about science, but more likely you would say a book about physics, or a book about evolution, or a book about plate tectonics, or a book about spectroscopy.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
I don't hate christians for damning me. I do a pretty good job of that myself.

I don't hate any religion. I don't hate the lack of religion. I have no religion myself, and yet oddly I hang around this thread.

Me and a bunch of other godless people... now why is that????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

DMT
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
I don't hate christians for damning me. I do a pretty good job of that myself.

I don't hate any religion. I don't hate the lack of religion. I have no religion myself, and yet oddly I hang around this thread.

Me and a bunch of other godless people... now why is that????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

DMT

the possibility for change? the presents of a teachable moment?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Prayer in Schools. All kids of all religions should be allowed to pray in schools at any time and this shouldn't bug you much since it seems Christian prayer in schools is on the way out.

NO

emphatically no

private schools, ok, pray all day if you want, the parents are picking up the tab

but not in taxpayer financed Public Schools,,,,no

no way ANY religion should be allowed, in any form,, per our god damn Constitution

Tell that to kids taking a test for which they are not properly prepared. As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools!

John
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
Norton,

When I say "prayer in schools" I mean allowing a kid to pray on his own time according to his own god without fear of persecution by the school system. Thats all.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
Seen Oblivion (2013, Tom Cruise) yet?

"Then out spake brave Horatius,
The Captain of the Gate:
"To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods."

How about "Gods" as a metaphor?

A metaphor for man's deepest beliefs?
Which is, of course, far afield of Jehovah, God of Moses.
This is probably how the word's going
to evolve in future generations.

Pretty good film, see it.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
Oh Squishy you think there is a teachable moment in a thread titled as this? What prompts you to post to the Taco these days? A hate-filled thread about christianity? Lots of folk say 'hate the religion and not the person' and then they fill their diatribes with Passive aggressive voice and personal insult that reveals a different sort of heart altogether.

It took me a long time to let go of my hate toward those faceless people who would judge me wanting.

Despite all the reasons that have been put forth in this thread as to why I should hate religion... I don't. I don't hate the religious either. I don't hold 4000 years of bullshit against the faithful, either.

I do mock willful ignorance and lies though - like the notion of a 6000 year old earth. No one and I mean NO ONE believes that sh#t. If they say otherwise they are LYING :-)

Anyway, been out climbing lately?

DMT
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
I hear you Dr. F.
(And by the way, you can refer to me as your "Christian friend" if you're sitting around the bar talking about me from here on out.)

So at the risk of you thinking I'm a bigger wacko than you probably already do... Yeah, I'm cool with believing that all species have been intact from the beginning.

What part of that is hard for you? I mean that sincerely.

With the beauty of microevolution along the way resulting in the beautiful diversity we now have. I have read and studied (on my own albeit) Darwin's works as well as contemporary lit and have yet to see solid proof of evolution from one species into the next.




domain
kingdom
phylum
class
order
family
genus
species

I am talking about DNA lineage here. Conversion from one species to another complete and distinct species. Where has that been proven? You seem to be so confident. I'm cool if you want to say you have "faith" that it happens, because I cannot prove my angle scientifically either. It just seems to take less faith to believe that the species were always there, than to hope they have altered/morphed/adapted into new species.

But truthfully, I think there are bigger heart issues at hand than evolution. I am totally cool if somebody believes humans evolved from primates, I just disagree and move on. I think the bigger question is "Do you think mankind is created essentially good...or essentially bad." That's the big one.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
I'm a scientist every day, living it out in private surgical practice.

No doubt you are quite skilled and competent, but there is a difference between applying practical skills and techniques developed through scientific processes and actually applying scientific reasoning consistently and universally.

For example:

3. Evolution: Micro...yes. Undeniable and a beautiful thing. Macro....between species. I know for a fact you can't prove this one, you're gonna need to show me the "jump." So its a theory.

There is overwhelming physical evidence that supports the accepted scientific consensus that the human organism evolved from simpler forms of life over a process of billions of years.

There is no physical evidence that supports the idea that humans came into being within a few days after the creation of earth.

In other words, the Bible creation story is at best a metaphor, and more likely a complete myth.

Yet many Christians choose to reject evolution as an explanation simply because it is not consistent with the Bible.

Let's be open minded, like a good scientist should be, to other options eh?

It's these types of responses that are the source of much of the disdain.

There are no other options. There is no other theory that has any physical evidence to support it.

A more accurate answer for many Christians would be: "I choose to believe in the creation story, even though there is no scientific basis to support it, because of my faith. Evolution is the best scientific explanation. But on this topic, religion is more important to me than the pursuit of knowledge based on scientific methods."

But for many mainstream American Christians, the answer is not so straightforward, or even honest. It's more of a bunch of doublespeak, pseudo-science, and verbal gymnastics that attempt to reverse the burden or proof through flawed logic.

If Christian organizations in America continue to attempt to counter the scientific model of evolution with biblical pseudo-science, they will continue to lose credibility. That's a shame, because Christianity does bring many positives, but they are being lost in debates about people riding dinosaurs.

micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Dave I think 95% of practical modern medicine is rooted soundly in the scientific method.....until 20 years goes by and we look back and our work and meds and procedures look barbaric.....so I live in the here and now scientific community quite comfortably with a Christian faith that supports the methodology, pharmacology and cutting edge technology of my practice.

It's really just macro-evolution that divides us....and maybe astronomy. Those are a bit more art than science sometimes and there's often a great deal of room for interpretation. But day to day my patients want to make sure I have a firm grasp of oncology when I'm gonna remove a tumor rather than my take on us coming from primates or if I really think there's life on Alpha Centauri.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Pretty well sums it up...

Judge: Baby can't be named 'Messiah'

A Tennessee judge has ordered the parents of a 7-month-old boy to rename their son "Martin" instead of "Messiah," CNN affiliate WBIR reports. "The word Messiah is a title and it's a title that has only been earned by one person and that one person is Jesus Christ," Child Support Magistrate Lu Ann Ballew said. Jaleesa Martin, the child's mother, told WBIR that she intends to appeal the decision.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
I have been out a little, couple times a month, we still gotta get out man (Saturday?). I need to get out more but the little one is keeping me busy and satisfied...

Funny what you say about the 6 thousand year thing though, I recently discovered a pile of people, young people at that, in another forum who all believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and that men walked with dinosaurs. their reasoning behind science's conclusion is planted evidence by Satan. There are thousands of such believers in the US, I like to call them fundies. They are fundamentalists, on the literal end of creationism. I argued with him for the sake of the audience but it was apparent that I was dealing with an indoctrinated teenager who was taught the bible is literally true and there is no other truth in the world.

As an example I will even cross post some of their prose.

Kent hovind did around 100 debates with evolutionists and basically never lost. He will debate anyone and his expense and the debate can be on whatever topic and context his opponent wants. He offered to pay Richard Dawkins to debate him but the whimp turned him down. If Dawkins "knows" evolution is a fact then what does he have to lose. He is scared about it somehow and he should admit it or accept the debate. You should watch kent hovind's debate with Mikel shermer from skeptic magazine. you've probably never even watched a creation/evolution debate let alone done some actual studying of creation from a creation scientist perspective. I have studied evolution and know how evolution is supposed to work, and I find it pretty boring and its just like reading the princes and the frog story. But I'd like a good answer on this.... If you don't learn the evidence for creation then why should I learn about evolution?

that would be a good thing for you squishy. you like what you think is science gives you... evolution. we can makes your own morals because we're just advanced animals right? no moral standard expect what we think is right. and you hate the questions we ask. thats what science does, ask questions and if someone is to close-minded to even question evolution or anything for that matter than they by definition are against science and the scientific method. and btw that whole little phrase is just plain dumb. yes by doing scientific research people make discoveries that make life easier and explain things. and people like what science gives them. but what does evolution have to do with this which was exactly what you were referring to, we'rent you? evolution has nothing to do with science. and if you go around believing that because someone doesn't believe in evolution they dont like science, then you have no idea what science is. and id like to know what questions science asks that I dont like. ask me one. you have to think a litte before you posts ignorant posts. PLEASE!


suishy... like most people in america and on this forum will agree you have an extreme twisted and dangerous view of america (and how it should be). when you were a kid (maybe a little before) people would have laughed at richard Dawkins and most people didn't even think twice that evolution was a fairy tail. you live with a minority in California and I feel for you.

There are so many examples like the ones below so there is no way they are all fake! Man didn't coin the term dinosaur until the 1800s but many ancient cultures referred to a "dragon". These examples are all hundreds of years old so how did man know about dinosaurs if there is a gap between them and man? Evolutionist need the gap to prove the fossil records are millions of years old. Any breakdown of that disproves all their theories of an old earth and they need that for the evolution argument!
http://www.icr.org/article/6041/
http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/temples-dinosaurs-carved-in-stone/
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=2423
and how does soft tissue survive for 68 million years???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer
The Urey/Miller experiment never produced all the amino acids did it? And it was done in laboratory conditions! And how did the chemicals get together in the correct order and proper sequence? The first cell would have needed hundreds of thousands of DNA code pairs to just to come to life! And where did the information come from so it knew how to reproduce copies of itself? Chance? Really? The cell evolved in water but the DNA comes apart quickly in water so the numerous systems that organiisms use to protect the DNA would not have evolved quickly enough! Extinct before it started!
Then there is "irreducible complexity". This is the interdependence of the various function of all organisms. If you go to start your car and there is no spark at the right time it won't start. Organisms are the same way. Our blood has 17 steps to thicken and form a clot when we are cut. All the systems need to be there and all the steps need to be taken and in the correct order or the clot happens to quick in our bodies or to late outside our bodies and we die! We would be extinct before we started to evolve! If evolution has slow step-by-step stages what information caused it to change how a system works or what job it performs. And where are the various stages in the fossil records?
The wood frog shuts down his heart, breathing and kidneys for months which causes 2/3 of his body to freeze in the winter. If it happens the first time and the systems which allow him to recover are not evolved then he is extinct! But if he had never froze before how did evolution know he needed it???
An Australian aquatic frog shuts down it stomach acids forming an incubator and eats its eggs and 8 weeks later full grown frogs emerge from the mothers mouth. If she ate her eggs the first time with out having evolved the ability to turn off acid production she is extinct! If she had not done it before then how would evolution know she needed it??? Where did the information to evolve correctly come from???
That is just 2 frogs from a huge family of frogs and we are discovering more species all the time. Look at all the other animal traits out there!
Take the giraffe for instance. He has valving in his neck which helps pump blood up to his head but if he puts his head down to drink his arteries in his head should explode but they don't because the valves clamp down reducing the pressure. If just one little part of this system doesn't work he is extinct. In fact, he never would have evolved to that point. Explain to me exactly how millions of chemical reactions need to happen without added information to form all the unique properties in the animal kingdom as well as mankind.
Evolution is intentionally so fluid that the backers can modify it to encompose all kinds of things such as adaptation. If there was adaptation where are all the fossil records of the half formed rejects that that passed their genes on to a better generation? And if they are half formed how did they survive and why did natural selection allow them to even survive long enough to reproduce?
One of the ideas of evolution has been that the hammer,anvil, and stirrup bones moved from the jaw of reptiles into the ear channel of a human as we evolved. How did we survive so long with no hearing and likely no jaw! Thats a half formed fossil I would love to see!!!
The devil is in the details and when we really get down to the details we start understanding that evolution omits most of the details and simply can't explain them which makes it far from sound science. Its a religion!

this is all evidence that they will never listen to. maybe im to negative.
there a literally hundreds of examples like this. certain woods peckers form a glue on their tongue to capture insects and then a chemical reaction happens and dissolves the glue so the wood pecker can eat the insects. if the wood pecker evolve the ability to create the glue but obviously didn't evolve the ability to dissolve it yet, he would be stuck with insects on his tongue and would go extinct.







micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
No Norton, I don't mean that. I just want religious freedom without persecution from the state when kids are in school. Not sanctioned Jesus or Mohammed or Tosh.O time. Trust me, it will be way more uncomfortable to be a Christian kid in school in the coming years than any other religion. You seem to misunderstand my basic point.

Guys I gotta run. Have a good one. Here's what I'm into for the next couple hours. By the way, not breaking any HIPPA rules or regs here, this patient gave me permission, I own the photo and it does not have his/her name on it nor are there any identifying structures.

Your homework for the next couple hours....give me some up to date persuasive lit on evolution that shores up change between species. And/or read the book of Romans from the new testament and be ready to discuss.

Adios.

Removing some kind of cystic mass from around a dental implant right n...
Removing some kind of cystic mass from around a dental implant right now.
Credit: micronut
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
So at the risk of you thinking I'm a bigger wacko than you probably already do... Yeah, I'm cool with believing that all species have been intact from the beginning.

Hey micronut, have you ever owned a dog?

micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
yeah...and he was never a squirrel. ok. really...gotta run.

Micronut,

Out.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
But he was descended from wolves, a different species of animal, perverted by mankind and evolved very quickly into the many shapes and sizes we have today. I bet there's tons of creationists who own dogs and don't even realize the implications of what I just said..

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
I think it's perfectly fair actually. If you claim to be Christain then we can assume many things about you.

Because all Christians are exactly the same. Just like all Supertopoans are the same.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
The Abrahamic religions all claim Abraham as a lynchpin of their religion.
Yet the 3 religions are different, and the 3 gods are different.

The simplest explanation for the differences is that all 3 religions were made up by people.

view of fellow Abrahamic religions:
Islam: Jews and Christians are respected as "People of the Book"; but they have wrong beliefs and only partial revelation.
Judaism: Islam and Christianity are false interpretations and extensions of Judaism.
Christianity: Judaism is a true religion, but with incomplete revelation. Islam is a false religion.
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/comparison_charts/islam_judaism_christianity.htm

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
They would or force me to become a Republican and then shoot anything that looks, talks or prays as a Muslim.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Evolution: Micro...yes. Undeniable and a beautiful thing. Macro....between species. I know for a fact you can't prove this one, you're gonna need to show me the "jump."
Evolution resulted in BRANCHING of species. I'm not sure what you mean by "between species".
Evolution of branching species is well proven. Just one Wikipedia link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae
Carnivorans evolved from miacoids about 55 million years ago (Mya) during the late Paleocene.[4] Then, about 50 Mya, the carnivorans split into two main divisions: caniforms (dog-like) and feliforms (cat-like). By 40 Mya, the first clearly identifiable member of the dog family, Canidae, had arisen. Called Prohesperocyon wilsoni, it was found in what is now southwestern Texas.

Even dogs and cats evolved from common ancestors.

Of course one could still believe that the Bible, a compilation of legends and stories over a period of 500 years or so and finally compiled 1700 years ago takes precedence over modern scientific fact and proof.
Or believe that Earth, Air, Fire and Water are the elemental building blocks of the Universe.
Or believe the Earth is the center of the Universe.
Or that God created the Earth in 6 days and then took a day off to have a beer, barbecue some ribs (not Adam's I hope) and enjoy the view of His Creation.

Can't have it both ways. Can't believe that all matter we know of is made of 98 naturally occurring elements; that the precise metallurgy of your surgical tools is well understood; and also not believe in the evolution of species. Evolution is now as well established scientifically as Mendeleev's table of elements, created ten years after (1869) Darwin wrote Origin Of The Species (1859).
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
I always assumed that the differences between the major religions were cultural adaptations to teach a similar moral code through fables.

No?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Squishy the 6000 year old earth people are lying thru their teeth. They are lying about what they believe and they ae lying about their faith.

Flat out lying....

ANYONE with more than a 3rd grade edu is LYING if they claim belief In a 6000 year old earth.

There is no middle ground. They're liars.

DMT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
I always assumed that the differences between the major religions were cultural adaptations to teach a similar moral code through fables.
Ascribing motives to ancient writers is pretty dicey stuff.
I think they really believed these stories. I think they created these stories to explain natural phenomena and human behavior they could not otherwise understand.
Or also, in many cases, to control those whom they could convince to believe in the tales.
I do believe man's Search For Understanding is one of those mental exercises that separates us from all the other animals.
Although I'll have to admit, my dog and I haven't had that particular philosophical discussion yet. Sometimes he seems VERY interested in figuring out who belongs to the latest unusual scent.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
ANYONE with more than a 3rd grade edu is LYING if they claim belief In a 6000 year old earth
You're crediting them with more intelligence than I would.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
There is no middle ground. They're liars.

What is it that they are lying about? Are you saying that their claims of belief are just things that they say but are not true? That's giving them way more credit than they deserve.

People believe weirder stuff than a 6000 year old Earth. How about them scientologists?

Dave
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
I think, and this is just my speculation, that religion was a development and invention by men to control other men. It was added too and redefined over the ages, inconsistency removed or the whole thing changed to suit current events and suit the leaders of the time. In order for religion to exist we need a few things 1st...

1 - Faith
If a village teaches their children not to go into the dark woods because there's monsters, then their children may not be eaten by tigers as much. If another village does the same but their people lack the ability to believe in anything they cannot see, they will die off, while the village that is able to believe in something without seeing it (faith) will survive. This means those people who had dogma or beliefs survived while those who did not lost more lives or even died off. So the ability to have faith, was a beneficial trait at some point in our history. It simply had to be.

2 - Grief
Not many animals on this planet grief their dead, but we are one of them. I think it's due to intelligence, all the animals that do grief are highly intelligent and able to think about what happens after we die. Grief and faith are somewhat linked (see above entry). Without ever having the capacity for grief we would never fear death or ask the question "what happens after we die?". And of course, a question that is never asked, never needs an answer.

3 - Hope
When the rain didn't fall, the crops failed, and when the crops failed, people died. Have you ever counted the number of churches along Hwy120 in the agricultural center of the state? (it's on the way into Yosemite) Is it any surprise to you that rural farming communities have an abundance of churches (per capita) than, dare I say, the more advanced, intelligent and easier lifestyles of larger cities? Food for thought, eh.

There's a lot more to it and I am by no means an expert, but I like to use these three things to show how evolution actually explains why we have religion and why it is still around. I would love it is someone else more educated on the subject would share, this is just my speculation.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
I always assumed that the differences between the major religions were cultural adaptations to teach a similar moral code through fables.
We know that Henry 8 created the Church of England so he could get divorced.
We can read that Joseph Smith was a con man.
Hubbard claimed starting a religion was the way to get rich.
Televangelists have shown us how religion is used to amass personal wealth.

Why should we think any religion was started with pure motives?
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
Dingus is giving not just them (fundies), but humans in general, way too much credit. In fact we might want him to stick to what he believes, no need to depress people and spread more grief. Like don't click this if you want to retain any faith in American intelligence: http://creationmuseum.org/whats-here/exhibits/planetarium/?utm_source=creation-museum-creation-evolution&utm_medium=Banner&utm_campaign=fires-in-the-sky
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
Why should we think any religion was started with pure motives

Not sure, I hadn't really thought about it that way.

I'd just always assumed that religion was created with the best of intentions and corrupted by opportunists after the fact.

But, I'm no scholar.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Why should we think any religion was started with pure motives?

I explained above. Originally it may have been created to keep people alive. I would call that a pure motive. But once it was recognized as a way to own women, conquer your neighbor or silence your opposition, all bets were off and the human animal had a new tool for oppression and destruction. Why it's still here in light of our vast collective knowledge is the real question plaguing us.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
I think Squishy and I are on the same page here.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
The Book of Mormon states that Negroes are the marked descendants of Ham.


Pardon me, High Traverse, this statement is incorrect...

The Book of Mormon does not mention "Negroes" by any specific designation...nor does it cite Ham, his descendants or the "Curse of Ham". Perhaps you read this in one of the pervasive anti-mormon publications...and didn't question it.

Some of these volumes addle the BOM's narration of the curse upon the "Lamanites" with Black people of African descent. That is simply not authentic..."Negroes", "Canaanites", "Hamites" are missing from the Book of Mormon.

Pronouncements about Blacks vis a vis being denied the priesthood came from Brigham Young not the Book of Mormon. (Joseph Smith had ordained three black men to the priesthood)
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
We can surmise shamans/priests/leaders profited from religion early in history.

Require your followers to provide you with any nice thingies that you like to have including:
1. give you a large part of their incomes, ...
2. give you their virgin daughters as brides ...

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fun:Starting_a_new_religion
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:48pm PT

One of the many reasons I hate Christianity is that it produces minds such as Klimmer's.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
It can be argued that the mark of the fool is he who argues against religion by bombarding the mileau with facts and figures "disproving" the verity of spiritual concerns. Likewise, the religio who insists that the gold standard of his faith rests on Jesus walking on water, the Tower of Bable being an actual structure in space and time, and that Brother Jonah actually spent time in a whale's tripe - and lived to tell about it.

Both camps are aiming at the wrong target. Entirely.

JL
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
I think that Largo and I are on the same page, as well
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
Any religion that asks for money or sex is a pyramid scheme.
That includes most of them.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
I think they really believed these stories. I think they created these stories to explain natural phenomena and human behavior they could not otherwise understand.
Or also, in many cases, to control those whom they could convince to believe in the tales.

Rethinking my earlier post. Perhaps the difference here is Old Testament fantasies (ancient stuff) vs New Testament mind control (well after scientific thought and experiment had developed)
The astronomer Aristarchus of Samos was the first known person to propose a heliocentric model of the solar system, while the geographer Eratosthenes accurately calculated the circumference of the Earth. Hipparchus (c. 190 – c. 120 BC) produced the first systematic star catalog. The level of achievement in Hellenistic astronomy and engineering is impressively shown by the Antikythera mechanism (150-100 BC), an analog computer for calculating the position of planets. Technological artifacts of similar complexity did not reappear until the 14th century, when mechanical astronomical clocks appeared in Europe.[25]
In medicine, Hippocrates (c. 460 BC – c. 370 BC) and his followers were the first to describe many diseases and medical conditions and developed the Hippocratic Oath for physicians, still relevant and in use today. Herophilos (335–280 BC) was the first to base his conclusions on dissection of the human body and to describe the nervous system. Galen (129 – c. 200 AD) performed many audacious operations—including brain and eye surgeries— that were not tried again for almost two millennia.

Yet Galileo was persecuted for showing the sun was the center of the solar system
Galileo's championing of heliocentrism was controversial within his lifetime... The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, and they concluded that it could be supported as only a possibility, not an established fact.[9][10] Galileo later defended his views in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which appeared to attack Pope Urban VIII and thus alienated him and the Jesuits, who had both supported Galileo up until this point.[9] He was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.
and witches were burned in Massachusetts.
Be very careful to oppose or criticize the dominant orthodoxy!
Those religious fundamentalists will strike back.

and NO, Einstein did not believe in god.
Einstein replied on 24 March 1954:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[8]
Eric Gutkind sent a copy of his book "Choose Life: The Biblical Call To Revolt"[10] to Einstein in 1954. Einstein sent Gutkind a letter in response and wrote, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

Although he expressed various thoughts on religion, including praise of deism, Thomas Jefferson was certainly not a Christian:
In a letter to Adams (April 11, 1823), Jefferson wrote, “And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter.”

which puts into perspective Jefferson's argument for what the First Amendment really means:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
Or in other words, it is to our peril when the Government takes ANY position on religion, for or against.
So keep your religion out of my schools and I'll respect your right to believe in your religion. As long as your religion respects all people's rights.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
Jennie,

Is bacon what lures good people to the Curse of Ham damnation ?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Jennie
I knew that would get your attention although my error was accidental.
I stand corrected, in fact it was Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith. So did BY have a Revelation?

On the Mormon doctrine regarding "negroes" I refer you to Elder Bruce R McConkie, "Mormon Doctrine" 1966:
Of the two-thirds who followed Christ, however, some were more valiant than others ....Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Moses 5:16-41; 12:22). Noah's son Ham married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood (Abraham 1:20-27). Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27.) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them (Moses 7:8, 12, 22), although sometimes negroes search out the truth, join the Church, and become by righteous living heirs of the celestial kingdom of heaven.

And First President (El Jefe) George Albert Smith in 1949
The attitude of the Church with reference to the Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: "Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to."
underlines are mine.
The orthodoxy is plain and clear.

Of course your sources may differ.

As I said earlier, I've had many Mormon friends, and many of those I respect intellectually and morally. However, when held up to Inquisition, I suppose most of them will be branded Jack Mormons. Perhaps with JM on their foreheads?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Any religion that has EVER changed its principles is lying if it claims divine guidance.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
why was it, the reason, for Young's official rejection of black people as unsuitable
for Priesthood for such a long period?


Just my opinion, Norton, and having no doctrinal root, I think there was apprehension that bringing America's civil rights turmoil into the church would precipitate contention within the church. And, of course, Mormons were not unclouded relative to the country's feelings about interracial marriage. (Only male priesthood holders were eligible for eternal marriage in the temple...regular LDS church weddings are "till death do us part")

Blacks were promised the priesthhood at a future date (unspecific) but were not given it until 1978...

Of course, Protestants, in pointing fingers at the LDS for its racial bias, are whistling past the graveyard of their own bigotry and partiality. The tradition that Blacks were the "seed of Cain", the descendants of Ham, and cursed, was preached by most Protestant churches as a justification for slavery, many years before the LDS church came to be.

Those concepts were prevalent long before Joseph Smith or Brigham Young.

Brigham, having been a devout Methodist with several Methodist clergy in his family, may have brought these beliefs with him, when he converted. (Although the Methodists were not the most virulent of churches in propounding this doctrine)
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
Is bacon what lures good people to the Curse of Ham damnation ?


Perhaps it's the nitrites in Ham, Jim...

:-)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
I really didn't mean my comments to turn into a rant on Mormonism.

I can separate what I feel about people I know from their religious beliefs. I can even appreciate their beliefs without believing in them myself.

My Great Objection is to sects of any religion when they
1: discriminate against race, sex or sexual identification.
2: try to get their religious beliefs taught in public school. I'm fine with students learning about the history and beliefs of all religions, without prejudice.
3: try to substitute their superstitions and prejudices for fact and judgement in politics and government.
4: they use their religious beliefs to get out of the draft: Mormons on missions in the Vietnam war (my non-Mormon friends, not on missions, went in their place) and Orthodox Jews in Israel today.
5: try to proselytize me.
6: believe I'm morally corrupt or repugnant because I'm atheist.

and plenty of "christians" fall into categories 1, 2, 3 and 6.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
It is an easy mark to disabuse religion, especially Christianity, on the grounds of it serving up an antiquated cosmology, or haveing it's fact wrong, or insisting that a moral metaphor is not historical fact - which is the equal of kicking a dead dog.

The serious work in not in fobbing off asperisions at these silly and superficial issues, but sitting down for a few hours, reading something like Song of Songs, and reporting back you take on the chapter in terms of being a living, feeling human being.

That's the heavy lifting right there, not letting the air out of old myths on the grounds of "scientific evidence" to the contrary.

JL
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Protestants, in pointing fingers at the LDS for its racial bias, are whistling past the graveyard of their own bigotry and partiality
aww c'mon Jennie
By the time the Mormon Church allowed "blacks" into the Priesthood in 1978, thousands of Protestants (and Jews (including a good friend) and Catholics) had marched, been hosed, tear gassed, jailed, and at least nine non-black killed, in the civil rights protests in the South.
I never knew any Mormons who went (I'm sure there were some).
It took the First Presidency about a dozen years more to wake up and smell the discrimination.

I'm sure not cutting the white supremacist "christians" in the 20th century South any slack.
If you want to go back far enough, the Catholic Priests in the genocides in the Americas, nor the Inquisition, expulsion of the Muslims from Spain etc.

I've got great respect for Islam as a religion and moral framework, yet the Islamic Fundamentalists are abhorrent. Every religion has had it's fanatical, murderous time.
The Mormon religion not so much, partly because of their Very Short History. It was a non-Mormon mob who shot Joseph and Hyrum Smith.
Let's not forget most of the animosity towards the Mormons was a result of their plural marriages, often to very young girls from non-Mormon families. Pissed off a Lot of people. Not to excuse murder.
So which was it? Did God (or Whomever) write in the Golden Tablets that Mormons should practice plural marriage, or was JS just a lecher?
Did God deliver Brigham Young a revelation to discriminate against blacks, or was it his own racial prejudice? It appears He sent First President Kimball a revelation in 1978 that blacks could attain the Priesthood anyway.
Did God deliver a Revelation to First President Woodruff in 1890 or did he abolish polygamy in order to join the United States?
The final element in President Woodruff's revelatory experience came on the evening of September 23, 1890. The following morning, he reported to some of the General Authorities that he had struggled throughout the night with the Lord regarding the path that should be pursued. The result was a 510-word handwritten manuscript which stated his intentions to comply with the law and denied that the church continued to solemnize or condone plural marriages. The document was later edited by George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency and others to its present 356 words. On October 6, 1890, it was presented to the Latter-day Saints at the General Conference and approved.
Either way doesn't look too good.

Anyway, the black people who were interested in the Mormon religion had an informed choice, as long as they didn't want full participation.

Not so much informed choice for the young girls drawn into plural marriages around Nauvoo.
Nor the 14 year old who married the polygamist I know and gave birth when she was only a few months past 14 (do the math).
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
On the Mormon doctrine regarding "negroes" I refer you to Elder Bruce R McConkie, "Mormon Doctrine" 1966:


Bruce R McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine has been repudiated by the church. He was never endorsed or sanctioned by the church to write it...and when it came out in the 1950's, the president, David O McKay found over 1500 doctrinal errors in the work.

The president is said to have asked Mr McConkie not to go through with another printing.

Nevertheless, the work did find a fairly large readership.

Much of the criticism of Mc Conkie, among church leaders, was in regard to his writings about Blacks and the priesthood and his demonization of the Roman Catholic Church.

McConkie did eventually apologize for his writings, after the priesthood ban was lifted. The book does have some value among collectors, although it's not rare. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism is the standard...although not published by the church, it's considered a much more accurate delineation of LDS doctrine and history.



The orthodoxy is plain and clear.


I agree, High Traverse ...there wasn't any question that the church DID withold the priesthood from Blacks of African descent.

But orthdoxy as to WHY Blacks were forbidden the priesthood was definitely lacking, especially with regard to Joseph Smith having ordained three black men

And if tabgible WHYS are lacking...some will insert folk doctrines and folk tales from the 1700's to rationalize it.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
The serious work in not in fobbing off asperisions at these silly and superficial issues, but sitting down for a few hours, reading something like Song of Songs, and reporting back you take on the chapter in terms of being a living, feeling human being.

Lots of great art has had its origins in religious tradition. And lots hasn't. But no one ever used Shakespeare, Coltrane, or Maxfield Parrish to impose codes of behavior or arbitrary moral standards on their neighbors. So taking what one likes from any particular faith is fine for the dilettante; it's the rest of the baggage that attaches to the true believers that becomes problematic in any multicultural setting.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
When it comes to bullsh#t, big-time, major league bullsh#t, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is f*#ked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of sh#t you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever f*#k things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a sh#t. Doesn't give a sh#t, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a sh#t, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to f*#k that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and f*#k up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the f*#k bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't f*#k around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that c*#ks@cker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

George Carlin
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
Regarding Bruce McConkie
Come ON Jennie!
He wrote Mormon Doctrine in 1958 and was appointed to the Quorum Of The Twelve Apostles in 1972, serving until his death in 1985. He clearly wrote with the full approval of the Mormon First Presidency.
In fact he was unrepentant in 1978 after the Revelation.
Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June 1978. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles.[5
Now the blacks were fully fair game and let's get on with converting them with a better promise than before.

McConkie on Jews:
Let this fact be engraved in the eternal records with a pen of steel: the Jews were cursed, and smitten, and cursed anew, because they rejected the gospel, cast out their Messiah, and crucified their King……
Let the spiritually illiterate suppose what they may, it was the Jewish denial and rejection of the Holy One of Israel, whom their fathers worshiped in the beauty of holiness, that has made them a hiss and a byword in all nations and that has taken millions of their fair sons and daughters to untimely graves.
He Really Believed this stuff and yet remained on the Quorum of 12.

SO The Presidency (Quorum of 12) later became embarrassed by McConkie's discrimination against blacks and Jews (was it because by 1978 they were really getting the going over from the rest of this nation?) and tried to clean up the bad PR by "casting him out".
How noble, how convenient. But they didn't do even that before he died.
McConkie served in the capacity of an Apostle until his death at age 69 in 1985

now I'm really really done with this thread.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
The First A.M.E. Church in L.A. has no white people in their congregation, as of just last Sunday. They got freedom of association, the same as everyone else, so they can run things the way they want.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Kindness, culture, to name two things.

One more thing, their "bible" also says to kill all the infadels that don't believe in Mohammed.

 So does yours goofy…. Deuteronomy 17 - Did you not pay attention to your book at all, or are you the pick'n'choose type christians. (this is not to mention all the other folk the bible finds it ok to stone to death at the gates of the cities… fail)


This is taught to ALL Muslims. Just because they all don't take up this action doesn't mean that this sentiment isn't in their hearts and minds.

 Same could be said for you and yours…. Kettle - Pot - pot - kettle.. There really is no difference between your statements toward the Muslims….. and… here…. "This is taught to ALL christians. Just because they all don't take up this action doesn't mean that this sentiment isn't in their hearts and minds."… see what I mean? oh, that's right… your christian.. you don't see my point…


I don't want to start gett'in down on religions that are not christian.. Wait a minute, yes I do.
To non- religious people looking in. You'll often hear from them that Christians think their better than everyone else because they're always Preach'in a better way. And they are the ONLY true church and all others are wrong. So depending on how the Christian shares this
"Good News", he can either come off as a humble servant, or an egotistical bastard.

 True, true.. I'm listening'…. they do tend to be blow-hard ego trip in' bastards….


So what's wrong with trying to share with ur brothers and sisters The God of Love and that He has a plan for your life.

And if you investigate into all the different religions you'll quickly see that they can't all be right.
They all have Jesus wrapped up in their story's. And once you get drawn in by Him it's entirely
up to you to continue and grow in a relationship with HIM! If the "religion" you are connected to isn't helping you to grow closer to HIM everyday. Then you might not belong to the "right" religion.

 What a total crock o'shite!!!! First off, you can keep thy religion to thy self, nothing wrong with that either….

If you don't feel closer to your imaginary friend, maybe your doing it wrong? Really? That's your hook. If you're not closer, its your fault… Or could it be maybe there's no god there to begin with?

Second, there is no reason to believe in a god from the git, nor him as son or as ghost. As it is all imaginary. I couldn't care less about how old your personal belief system is. What if they had it wrong back when it was all supposedly 'revealed' to 'them' (whoever "they" are). You think that because it happened so long ago that they were somehow better, more equipped to handle the rigors of desert dwelling, more pure, even though they had intoxicants back then… as f*#king if.

Pull your head out your azz BB. You're pathological in your hypocrisies "you'll quickly see that they can't all be right." - I just took my investigation one good further and never believed in any… They are all made up



YET ANOTHER REASON TO HATE CHRISTIANITY SO MUCH!!!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
What do you think I'm new, squishy? That is pt Barnum crap and NO ONE BELIEVES THAT SH#T. NO ONE.

It's no different than those nickel freak shows at the fair...

DMT
Gene

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
Many of you confuse faith and religion.

g
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
George Carlin. Loved that man's persnickity attitude.

Last night and today I have been watching the History Channel's production of Hatfields and McCoys. In this war, there are atrocities and murders and lies, as in all wars. The McCoy's patriarch is a bible-quoting backwoodsman who is in the long run leading his people to disaster by ceaseless prayer, and his wife calls him on it. Doesn't change anything.

The role of religion in affairs like this cannot be ignored. It is magnified by history, whereas at the time of conflict, it is "God's will," especially when someone asks why a certain unpleasantness happened. Well, this doesn't seem to sit well at all with me. I have a personal relationship with a being (fantasy or fact, I don't care--I get comfort from thinking this way) but I don't blame fails or trouble on him, as I know well a concatenation of events and thoughts led up to the problem, all of which are of human, not divine, origin.

Here, then, is where reason rules. In your heart, you "see" the real path that you followed to get there to that trouble, conflict, or lawsuit, whatever. To take it upon oneself and one's kin and neighbors to redress a perceived wrong is not reasonable, it's lying.

Vendetta is an institution in Italy, or Sicily, to be more exact. The Muslims' leaders pronounce fatwah on someone, and the Pope will excommunicate as needed, and used Crusade as a tool to increase the Church's sway. Let's face it, Christianity's no different in this respect, that God's will is plenty good enough reason for doing stuff to others. It's an excuse, nothing more, for highly questionable actions. Motives. You got to watch the leaders and avoid the parking meters.

Divine sanction is BS. Seeking comfort is not.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Cintune,

Have you ever tried to express a free opinion amongst artists ?
dougs510

Social climber
down south
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
I love it!! It makes my life so much better :)
Gene

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
gene, my guess is that religion is the ritual ceremony that goes hand in hand with faith?


Not even close.

g
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
Come ON Jennie!

He wrote Mormon Doctrine in 1958 and was appointed to the Quorum
Of The Twelve Apostles in 1972, serving until his death in 1985.
He clearly wrote with the full approval of the Mormon First
Presidency.


Full approval, High Traverse?

Why was Mormon Doctrine criticized by the Church President, David O McKay if Mr McConkie
had "full approval" of church leaders?

Why did members of the Quorume Twelve, such as Mark E. Peterson and Marion Romney cast aspersions
on the volume?.

Why did the church leadership forbid church adjunct printer Deseret from reprinting the book
until McConkie made desirable changes?

And why did Mc Conkie succumb to pressure from church leadership and revise the book (1966)
...if he indeed had "full approval"for his first edition?

Mormon Doctrine is not and never has been sanctioned, by the LDS church, as church canon.
The fact that Elder Mc Conkie was a member of the twelve doesn't ratify his work as approved LDS
church doctrine.

Most of the apostles write books... offering a variety ideas and opinions...and some don't agree.
Every page by every apostle cannot be assumed as church doctrine except
where they recite certified doctrine.

Much of McConkie's writings concerning the Negro/priesthood issue
were opinion and most members perceived them as such...






In fact he was unrepentant in 1978 after the Revelation.


"Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young
or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary
to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding
and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the
world.

It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said
about the Negro matter before the first day of June 1978. It is
a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the
revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject.
As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the
past, we forget about them."



...sounds rather penitent and reforming to me, High Traverse. Of course, you
are fully allowed your opinion on what is and is not repentant.

Generally, the LDS accept contrition and acknowlegement of
error as repentant... minus the wearing of sackcloth and ashes.



Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
All gods are real when enough people believe in the common image.

When few believe - gods cease to be.

Zeus, Wankan Tanka, Ra, Yahweh. All were real at one time in human history yet I defy you to find their presence in today's world.

Which begs the question - is "god" a human construct?

We are an imaginative lot after all....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Ha, how pertinent,
was just watching Cloud Minders (a Star Trek classic) where this girl, Droxine is her name...
photo not found
Missing photo ID#315664
says to her father, challenging him (that's him on the right)...
"Father, are we so sure of our methods that we never question what we do?"
Of course this totally made me think of a child asking go-B, Micronut, Splitter or Klimmer the awfully similar question...
"Father, are we so sure of our beliefs that we never question our religious practices?"
Of course there's no answer, only a redirect.

.....

Ricky D,
Zeus, Wankan Tanka, Ra, Yahweh. All were real at one time in human history yet I defy you to find their presence in today's world.
What? Yahweh, aka The God of Moses, the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims, is alive and well in the hearts and minds of billions. Better double check your work. That's precisely the God (concept) of the West that's still causing so much trouble even in the 21st century.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Prayer in Schools. All kids of all religions should be allowed to pray in schools at any time and this shouldn't bug you much since it seems Christian prayer in schools is on the way out.



When I say "prayer in schools" I mean allowing a kid to pray on his own time according to his own god without fear of persecution by the school system. Thats all.

Perfect example of shifting your doctrine, when you get called on what you are doing.

The fact is, that no child is going to be punished for praying while a school shooting is going on, or when getting word that their parent died.

But you aren't talking about that. You are talking about the NEED for prayer, publically, when there is no particular need.

Do you really advocate that if you don't pray every hour, God abandons you?
Why not every minute? Why not do no other activity?

The fact is that school prayer is NOT about children needing to save their souls. It is about doing so publically so as to attract non-believers. IT IS A MARKETING GIMMICK.

I have no doubt of John's devout belief. I doubt that he ends every meeting with a client by telling them "well, now we have to pray to God, so that we have him on our side"......and have his clients go running, screaming from the consult room.

Children can pray as much as they want, silently, at any time. What you want is for them to do so LOUDLY, PUBLICALLY, to recruit others.

It is this lack of honesty that is so nauseating.

It is just the same as when posting: "Honest Question"----which means that everything else posted was NOT honest. It exposes the fakery.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
A more accurate answer for many Christians would be: "I choose to believe in the creation story, even though there is no scientific basis to support it, because of my faith. Evolution is the best scientific explanation. But on this topic, religion is more important to me than the pursuit of knowledge based on scientific methods."

But for many mainstream American Christians, the answer is not so straightforward, or even honest. It's more of a bunch of doublespeak, pseudo-science, and verbal gymnastics that attempt to reverse the burden or proof through flawed logic.

If Christian organizations in America continue to attempt to counter the scientific model of evolution with biblical pseudo-science, they will continue to lose credibility. That's a shame, because Christianity does bring many positives, but they are being lost in debates about people riding dinosaurs.



Even more interesting is that the Pope, leader of the largest Christian sect in the world, accepts evolution.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Cintune, a dilettante is "a person who claims an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge."

That's largely how I see those of us teeing off on religion here on the basis that a "grandpappy in the sky" God is bogus and crimes against humanity have been perpetrated on us all in His name.

No doubt, some wish to simplify all spiritual concerns to kindergarden, Bible school theology, and to admonish that realm harshly - I don't blame anyone for doing so, though this reflects, at best, a cursory look and understanding of religious matters. It also assumes that things seemingly dead obvious to us - the sketchy reality of an anthromorphically conceived "God," virgin births, wonky miracles, etc. - are totally lost on every believer, and that mythology comprises the living heart of the whole shebang.

Such an attitude, or more accurately, such a belief is the very stuff of the dilettante, who feigns interest, while showing "no real commitment or knowledge" to the very issues he so glibly dismisses.

Anyone feeling these cursory dismissals are the soul-level work of truth-seekers and rational-minded men are every bit as accomplished the posers as those insisting the rest of us will burn in hell lest we follow thier lead, as ordained in the Good Book.

Most of these arguments are not reflective of any serious comittment to the subject nor yet show much knowledge. They are thinly veiled rants - which makes us feel powerful, but adds nothing to the size of our being or the beauty of our lives.

As they say, the wolfe in the henhouse makes a lot on noise, but he misses the owl looking down in the rafters.

JL
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Your homework for the next couple hours....give me some up to date persuasive lit on evolution that shores up change between species.

I have no idea what this sentence means. There is NO evolution "Between" species. That is a non-sensical statement.

You claim to be a scientist, but you don't use the precise language of science. Why is that?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:57pm PT

Billy Connolly on Catholicism
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
By the way, not breaking any HIPPA rules or regs here, this patient gave me permission, I own the photo and it does not have his/her name on it nor are there any identifying structures.


I SERIOUSLY doubt that the patient gave you permission to post the picture of them on an internet website, to entertain people....which is what you did. It was not part of any scientific or medical enterprise.

But what do you expect from Christians?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Come January , in these parts , burning in hell , sounds delightful...RJ
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Christopher Hitchens - "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
Why is it, that human beings cling to wish thinking? I find it far more interesting to ask, why do some of us seem to need faith, a religion, and some of us are fine without it.
TY
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
The biggest damage religion does is brainwashing children
Science doesn't actually claim to know all the truth. It works hard by getting closer and closer to the truth, but of course science learns by its mistakes and advances by disproving hypotheses and getting things wrong. One of the virtues of science is that it is prepared to change its mind when the evidence warrants it. Public sharing is an important part of science. No scientist will ever say - 'Oh, it's true for me, it may not be true for you.'
It is fascinating. What is it about faith that can make somebody kill? Patriotism is another one - people believe my country is right or wrong. In the World Wars, people were perfectly able to shoot other people just because they belonged to the wrong country, without ever asking what their opinions were. Faith too is like that.

Rejecting belief outright, are you an atheist fundamentalist?
The term 'fundamentalist' means you stick to a holy book and never change your mind. I will change my mind whenever the evidence warrants it.

Richard Dawkins
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-01-25/edit-page/30659764_1_religion-science-faith
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Religion: Brainwashing the kids since the Bronze Age

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:33am PT
The prophetic timeline is ticking down. When the proverbial bovine dung hits the fan and you are frightened out of your mind, then what will you do? I hope you know who to turn to. The very one you rile against, Yeshua HaMashiach.



Luke 21:8-18 (KJV)
[8] And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
[9] But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
[10] Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
[11] And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
[12] But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
[13] And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
[14] Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
[15] For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
[16] And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
[17] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
[18] But there shall not an hair of your head perish.



Your reality is going to be challenged and significantly altered ... what are you going to do? Who are you going to turn too?





Stereo pair panoramas:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630



The Massive Ark, or Mothership on the backside of the Moon is still there!
Many more official NASA images from AS15. So how many stereo-pairs can I make from all of these images? Lol.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1036.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1037.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1038.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1039.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1040.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1041.jpg

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1332.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1333.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1334.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1335.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1336.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1337.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1338.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1339.jpg
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:44am PT
I am dealing with an evil "Christian" right now. If he gets his way he's going to rip the very soul out of someone close to me, and take no responsibility for his actions because it's "gods will" f*#k that! Assuage your own guilt and shortcomings in some rational way, and leave innocent bystanders out of it!
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:12am PT
i watched the rev gene scott for 30 years, stayed up late taking notes, did not do a damn thing to me but i did see merle haggard do a few songs, and mr scotts wife right before he died was not hard on the eyes,

one thing that puzzles me is why do the jews always try to hump christian chicks?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 13, 2013 - 09:37am PT
Thank you Largo, you have a more grown-up way of saying it!



Cintune, a dilettante is "a person who claims an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge."

That's largely how I see those of us teeing off on religion here on the basis that a "grandpappy in the sky" God is bogus and crimes against humanity have been perpetrated on us all in His name.

No doubt, some wish to simplify all spiritual concerns to kindergarden, Bible school theology, and to admonish that realm harshly - I don't blame anyone for doing so, though this reflects, at best, a cursory look and understanding of religious matters. It also assumes that things seemingly dead obvious to us - the sketchy reality of an anthromorphically conceived "God," virgin births, wonky miracles, etc. - are totally lost on every believer, and that mythology comprises the living heart of the whole shebang.

Such an attitude, or more accurately, such a belief is the very stuff of the dilettante, who feigns interest, while showing "no real commitment or knowledge" to the very issues he so glibly dismisses.

Anyone feeling these cursory dismissals are the soul-level work of truth-seekers and rational-minded men are every bit as accomplished the posers as those insisting the rest of us will burn in hell lest we follow thier lead, as ordained in the Good Book.

Most of these arguments are not reflective of any serious comittment to the subject nor yet show much knowledge. They are thinly veiled rants - which makes us feel powerful, but adds nothing to the size of our being or the beauty of our lives.

As they say, the wolfe in the henhouse makes a lot on noise, but he misses the owl looking down in the rafters.

JL
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 13, 2013 - 09:39am PT
Thank you Largo, you had a grown-up way of saying it...

Ummmm, somebody got their story mixed up. Every point is the equivalent to the media's portrayal of climbing "how do they get the rope up there?"


Cintune, a dilettante is "a person who claims an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge."

That's largely how I see those of us teeing off on religion here on the basis that a "grandpappy in the sky" God is bogus and crimes against humanity have been perpetrated on us all in His name.

No doubt, some wish to simplify all spiritual concerns to kindergarden, Bible school theology, and to admonish that realm harshly - I don't blame anyone for doing so, though this reflects, at best, a cursory look and understanding of religious matters. It also assumes that things seemingly dead obvious to us - the sketchy reality of an anthromorphically conceived "God," virgin births, wonky miracles, etc. - are totally lost on every believer, and that mythology comprises the living heart of the whole shebang.

Such an attitude, or more accurately, such a belief is the very stuff of the dilettante, who feigns interest, while showing "no real commitment or knowledge" to the very issues he so glibly dismisses.

Anyone feeling these cursory dismissals are the soul-level work of truth-seekers and rational-minded men are every bit as accomplished the posers as those insisting the rest of us will burn in hell lest we follow thier lead, as ordained in the Good Book.

Most of these arguments are not reflective of any serious comittment to the subject nor yet show much knowledge. They are thinly veiled rants - which makes us feel powerful, but adds nothing to the size of our being or the beauty of our lives.

As they say, the wolfe in the henhouse makes a lot on noise, but he misses the owl looking down in the rafters.

JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 13, 2013 - 09:44am PT
What human need does religion satisfy?

What human need does faith satisfy?

DMT
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:01am PT
I guess it provides some comfort when facing mortality.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:14am PT
As they say, the wolfe in the henhouse makes a lot on noise, but he misses the owl looking down in the rafters.

What? Did you just make that up? Can you provide a detailed exegesis, or is the meaning only clear to those with ears to hear (and maybe agendas to prop up)?

So far as Biblical literalism vs. The Deeper Issues™ goes, that's a pretty sharp ridge you're balancing on there. Watch out for the cornices.


Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:48am PT
Just a note on evolution here. The theory made a number of predictions which have been shown consistent with the observational data. Thus includes the fossil record.

In that record is extensive evidence for "macro" evolution.

Evolution is the foundation of biology.
WBraun

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:13am PT
They are thinly veiled rants - which makes us feel powerful

Ya godless stupid heathens yer all goin to hell!!!!

Just see how powerful I am after saying that!!!!!

Yo Ho mannn ....!!!!

:-)

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Blammo!














































Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
so much for thinly veiled...
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
I have no reason to veil my feelings on the matter..I have stated them very plainly a few pages back...religion is destructive and hinders human evolution, it supports and spreads ignorance like a disease and it's beliefs and policies are destructive to our species and the earth. It gives excuse for violence, child abuse, war and discrimination. And it's unreasonable, illogical, fantasy and simply false.

The repercussions of atheists being wrong is simply a few more people in hell. The repercussions of religions being wrong are already felt by the victims of it's wrath. Make no mistake about it, this is a war of ideology that means more to us and the planet than any subject that came before or after. Fence sitters, in this day and age are just as damning as those who swallow lies in the name of faith. "We cannot and will never know" is a lazy bullshit excuse for not doing your homework or realizing just how much we actually know and where science is headed. Do your homework, think critically for yourself and for GOD SAKE!! Pick a f'ing side. IMO there is no middle ground, just a pile of confused and lazy people stuck in the middle of a debate between reality and fantasy. It's actually very very simple.

And Largo, while I really appreciate your statement about reading text and "feeling" them instead of constantly scrutinizing them logically, I must admit to being beyond that. My favorite book of the bible is Ecclesiastes, my favorite overall religious text is the Te of Piglet. Notice I equate the two, and they are both fabulous works of art with positive messages, lessons and values that people can take with them. It still doesn't change the fact that one is using a childhood fiction and the other an adulthood fiction as a tool to spread it's message. My point is that it's all fiction and believers are f'ing insane for believing in any of it literally.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
To be fair Christian fundamentalism is far preferable to fundamentalism of many other religions, particulary Islam. Except, perhaps, for the Westboro church loonies, no Christians are proposing anything close to sharia.

However, Christian fundamentalism is a much bigger problem in this country, and they are not afraid to flex their political muscles. They have definitely set us back. If not hatred, resentment and frustration at them are certainly warranted.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Exactly dirtbag!

I can understand the resistance to resentment and hatred, who really wants to hate anything? To let their blood boil over in anger for any reason. But it happens. And this my friends, is worth getting your panties in a bunch about. Once you understand and transcend the true effects that all religions have had in hindering our progress and are continuing to do so, the sooner you will realize this is actually a war for our future, for our children. The people who embrace science will live, those who will not will die. The innovative and progressive thought of a people will strengthen it's economy, improve life and help heal the earth from those who believe it was just a stepping stone to something greater. Morals could be build on a foundation of truth, they would be logical and fair. We love to talk about freedom in this country but in effect none of us are truly free. As long as religion has one tiny ounce of influence in our lives, to our leaders, to our laws, we will forever remain slaves to it.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
Cintune. Exegesis is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially a religious text.

The problem that you and others are having with religious texts, is that you are attacking said texts, specifically the bible, at the level of a fundamantalist. A fundamentalist looks at the entire bible in terms of it all, every last word, being literally true. In this sense, the wonderful metaphors and symbolic language in which many of the verses are wrought are in your hands dumbed down to data streams that are "adult fictions," rather suave works of art, but not "true" in any legitimate or meaningful way. "Truth," in this sense, is quite naturally nothing more than historical or literal truth.

If this is your "exegesis" of the bible, it means that you are grasping after those bits and fragments of the text that you might interpret as being untrue in the literal sense, since literal truth is all you seem to vaule and perhaps all you grasp. For instance, Jesus did not actually rise from the dead in a literal sense, nor was he born of a virgin. Such things go against sceientific facts are are pure foolishness - right?

However, you are isolating out bits and freagments and not sinking your teeth into the meant and spuds of the text, which are found in pasages like Sermon on the Mount, and Song of Songs, which have nothing to do with literal data streams, nor are they mere "poetry" or adult "fictions."

The "owl" in the barnyard symbolically points to the transcdendental element, the "watcher" or omniscient element that is always lost on the person out to merely slay the fables at the surface level of literal truth. This is not serious work, though it has to be done. But serious guys like Karl Barth have done it with an eye for what IS true.

As mentioned earlier, if you want to wrestle this material at depth, put aside a few hours and read, say, Song of Songs, and see what happens. Or just continue ranting on how the text is "poor science" or adult "poetry."

Your call.

JL
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
squishy/dirtbag 2016

(that sounds funny, doesn't it?)
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
I understand why some folks are atheists -- they do have logic to support their position.

But I never understood why some folks are so passionate about proselytizing atheism.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Dear Atheists,


When the signs of the times happen in full vigor, (they've begun already, we are in the time prior to "The Beginning of Sorrows." We aren't in full birth pains yet, but evil spirits influencing the world (Rev.6: 1-8), and the natural world that surrounds you groans and anticipates the return of Yeshua HaMashiach, and the 3rd Temple is built on Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and it dawns on you that G-d's word is true and it's all happening as HaShem said it would, (remember he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, he sees through all time). Hopefully you'll remember what he said, and what we shared with you as witnesses to the his truth.

I predict in the future many Atheists will become believers during that time. There are frightening times ahead. That's OK. HaShem doesn't want anyone to perish. He gives you chance, after chance, after chance to come to know him or return back to him. I say take it. He is merciful, forgiving, and very long suffering. So are all true believers.


Fourteen Signs Announcing Christ's Return
Roderick C. Meredith
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/node/278


CREATION AND THE SPIRIT GROANING
Earth Reading: Romans 8.18-25
http://seasonofcreation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/bible-studies-outback-sunday.pdf

Romans 8: 16-25 (KJV)
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.








And you can't put Einstein in the Atheist camp. All evidence points to the fact that he was a Deist rather than a Theist. He didn't believe in a personal G-d.





But Sir Isaac Newton and many more Fathers of Modern Science did indeed believe in a personal G-d and our savior Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach.

In fact most of Newton's writings were on Theology ...









I know the truth is hard to swallow sometimes. It radically alters your World-view and you don't like that. Yes, it can be very uncomfortable. But it can also save your life.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Damn** funny atheist posters.
If god has a sense of humor, she's laughing at them.

And really. WHO decided that the Christian god is a He?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Klimmer you seem like a nice guy but I really wish you weren't teaching kids science.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Yes, Largo, I own a dictionary and I know what words mean before I use them.

Thanks anyway.

What's interesting here is that your accusations of cherry-picking cut both ways.
Sure enough, the Song of Songs, Sermon on the Mount, and a few other things contain deep insight and meaning re: the human experience.
As do portions of most all religious documents.
So we have the option of Jeffersonizing the texts to cull out those elements, dilettante-style, and
allowing ourselves the freedom of throwing out the bigoted, hateful, or just plain wrong stuff.
Or we can look at the whole of the dogma and weigh the signal to noise.
Then, if we're feeling cocky, we can pass judgement: this is mostly good,
or this is mostly shite. Except for the parts I like.

And the owl in the henhouse thing still needs work, sorry.
How did the owl get there? Is there a hole in the roof or did the farmer leave the door open?
Isn't the owl a predator too? And isn't it the chickens, not the wolf, who are making all the noise?
So many questions.

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
I sense an expectation so I have to ask, what would you assume I should gleam from Song of Songs?

And why would I put more or less emphasis on that bible verse over works of fiction and art which is trying to pass a message?

I find truth and fiction in all religious texts, I also find truth and fiction in Star Wars.

Thing is, published scientific data and findings, lacks the fiction part. It actually makes a considerable effort to remove bias, opinion and falsehoods. It's a level playing field and it also addresses the very same issues and ideas. Why would I ever go to a work of fiction when I have the real deal, whether it has answered the question or not?


Here is the giant glaring difference between me and others, and it's highlighted in my last sentence.

I am perfectly fine with not knowing all the answers, I do not need fiction to fill the gaps. If I read a scientific jounal on a subject I will learn what there is to know, I may not get my answer, but I will reach the limit of our knowledge. To go beyond that and create fiction or untested theories would be called what?

While many in this world, need an answer and they simply cannot live without one. If I have a question, like "what is the origin of historiography and the history of the study of history" I can actually find a book on it. In that book will be the history of the study, and it will pose several theories. It lacked a conclusion entirely and it was extremely fascinating, leading me to more questions and a whole new way to view anything that has ever been written down in the past. Not to mention, even the concept of history as acts in the past is infantile next to the age of mankind. Do I need poetry and art to find a subject beautiful and engaging? Nope. Do I need a conclusion, a statement of fact to feel fulfilled? Nope. So why would I ever bother reading something I know to be fiction for a purpose other than wasting time and finding entertainment? Especially one that tells me that I am a horrible sinner and I need to do everything it says or fear the wrath of my infallible ruler from the heavens.


The good news is that, anthropologically speaking, we are nearing the end of religion. There's only one god left (monotheism). Previous incarnations of religion had many gods, then they just had a few, then two, then one...it's only logical that we will someday have none...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
For Klimmer:

Albert Einstein's religious views have been studied extensively. He said he believed in the "pantheistic" God of Baruch Spinoza, but not in a personal god, a belief he criticized. He also called himself an agnostic, while disassociating himself from the label atheist, preferring, he said an "attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."[1]

Einstein expressed his skepticism regarding an anthropomorphic deity, often describing it as "naïve" and "childlike". He stated, "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein's_religious_views
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Oh, and I harbor no ill will toward anyone here, believer or not. While I am stating things like "your insane", they are generalizations about the population of believers as a whole. Please feel free to treat me in kind.

I find this discussion to not only be important and fascinating, but also highly enjoyable. Not all of my passion for the subject is negative, I am simply excited to match wits with those intelligent enough to do so, and we have some great minds around here, from both sides of the debate..
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Nice work Squishy! I should have had the faith that you had it in you!

You still climbing?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
The good news is that, anthropologically speaking, we are nearing the end of religion. There's only one god left (monotheism). Previous incarnations of religion had many gods, then they just had a few, then two, then one...it's only logical that we will someday have none...


Squishy,


You're reasoning is very squishy. Take a world Religion Class at the University. There are many faiths throughout the World and many gods, spelled with a little g, even now.

So how do you sort it all out? Who is the true G-d? Well, answer this question: Which G-d tells the truth and what he says happens, happens exactly as he said it would, and comes true time and time and time again?

Answer: There is only one G-d, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the G-d of and Judeo-Christian (Messianic Judaism) faith.

There's only one Book out there that explains it all, The Holy Bible. You have to read both the OT and the NT. They go hand in glove. You can't understand one without the other. There is only one true G-d, HaShem Adonai Elohim.

But there are many lesser gods, false gods in masquerade, who are really "the Fallen Angels." It's their purpose to divide, corrupt, lie, deceive, mislead, fool, and pull away from HaShem all mankind. There is a spiritual battle being waged behind the scenes for the soul of mankind. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood ...

Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.



Read up. Check out Dr. Michael Heiser's website:

The Divine Council
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/





rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously."

Neither can a lot of rock climbers according to the number of atheist-like posts that show up in this forum.

I think that Christians are the target of attack because they are the #1 religion in the US and also because Christians seems to act as if older or alternative religious views are silly while their own mythology makes perfect sense. If we knew more about how the Romans made fun of the Greeks for their religion, we would be condemning them for their hypocrisy too.

Dave
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:13pm PT

That should surprise no one, particularly those who know orthodox Christian doctrine. The message of Christianity has an inherent appeal to the humble, and an inherent repulsion to the proud. If self-pride and measured intelligence correlate positively, I would expect to find those with higher measured intelligence less likely to be attracted to a doctrine that says God exceeds humankind, and that no human has done anything deserving of an eternal -- or even temporary -- existence with God.

Carry on.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
I think that Christians are the target of attack because they are the #1 religion in the US and also because Christians seems to act as if older or alternative religious views are silly while their own mythology makes perfect sense. If we knew more about how the Romans made fun of the Greeks for their religion, we would be condemning them for their hypocrisy too.

Dave

Ironically, Dave, the Romans vilified the Christians because, to the Romans, Christians were atheists, i.e. they did not believe in the gods.

John
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
dirtbag
Christian fundamentalism is far preferable to fundamentalism of many other religions, particulary Islam. Except, perhaps, for the Westboro church loonies, no Christians are proposing anything close to sharia.
quite true.

Here's an historical perspective reduced to a trivial argument. Possibly even reductio ad absurdum
Muhammed died in 632 CE, ergo Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity.
What was Christianity like in the 1500-1600's? Splitting between Catholic and Protestant, at war with each other in England, France, Holland, etc. Massive destruction and death.
Spanish Inquisition, expulsion of Moors from Spain.
Christian eradication of non-believing Native Americans throughout the two continents.

As seen from a rather trivial historical timeline, Islam is right on track with Christianity in its development.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Klimmer
NO, Einstein did NOT believe in god in later years. Your quote is from 1929. Einstein wrote on 24 March 1954:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[8]
Eric Gutkind sent a copy of his book "Choose Life: The Biblical Call To Revolt"[10] to Einstein in 1954. Einstein sent Gutkind a letter in response and wrote, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
By 1954, 25 years after your quotation, he was in no way a deist.
You're a science teacher? Please get your facts straight.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
The message of Christianity has an inherent appeal to the humble, and an inherent repulsion to the proud.


Agree.

And this is the reason I don't hate christianity so much.

Sadly, a helluvalota self-proclaimed Christians don't seem to get the message though...
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
name ONE "great mind" in this conversation from the Theistic Camp?

You're looking for a "great mind" anywhere on supertopo?!?!?

BAHHHAAAHAAHAAAHAAAAHA!!!!!!!!11
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
If I call myself a "believer," a "Christian," or a "Messianic Jew," and yet I hate my neighbor, and show not Charity, G-d's love, Agape, then am I really a believer? (1st Corinthians 13)

Yeshua HaMashiach said, ...


Matthew 7:15-16(NKJV)
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

You can not lay at Yeshua's feet all the crimes of humanity that have been done in his name. He will tell them, "Depart from me for I never knew you."

Lucifer loves to get into the truth and divide and conquer and pull all of Christendom down, and then do all sorts of crimes in Jesus's name to pull down the truth. He does a good lob of this.

The Nazis wore crosses. Hitler was brought up as a devout Catholic, and his parents were devout Catholics. Did Hitler and the Nazis have anything to do with the love and truth of Yeshua HaMashiach, Adonai?

NO, they didn't.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
Alright fine, ya got me there Norton. The last believer who replied (whos content is not worth considering) failed to even read my past posts, it could be assumed the hole thread as well. A very telling characteristic of believers is lack of research..
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
an inherent repulsion to the proud.
Not so much. Plenty of egotistical fundamentalist preachers.

out of context
……. no human has done anything deserving of an eternal -- or even temporary -- existence with God.
ain't that the truth!

note on Buddhism. Distilled to its essence:
"To avoid all evil
To do good.
To purify one's mind.
This is the teaching of all the Buddhas."
--Dhammapāda, XIV, 5

Not even a Buddha is a god, simply an Enlightened One.
go to Heaven? some kind of existence with God? What silly notions! How presumptuous!

and now it's time for me to assume the cloak of humility, purify my mind, avoid evil and stop posting to this thread.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
And the owl in the henhouse thing still needs work, sorry.
How did the owl get there? Is there a hole in the roof or did the farmer leave the door open? Isn't the owl a predator too? And isn't it the chickens, not the wolf, who are making all the noise?
So many questions.



Actually, Cintune, most all of your responses on this and other threds betray where YOU might consider some "work." And unlike yourelf, I am not suggesting that when said "work" was done, you would have a quantifiable "thing" for the offing. It's not about that.

In most every sense of the word, you are a literalist of the physicalist variety. Note your comments above, in which the "Owl" is posited as an actual owl, and it's attributs are drawn from the particulars of the feathered bird.

In fact the Owl here is used metaphorically. You've heard of those, Holmes. And this here metaphor is not harking back to the feathered article, rather a qality often totally lost on the literalist, ergo all the "What the hell?" questions when a tangible, physical thing/gadget/unit is not in the offing.

There's is nothing wrong with being a literalist. Some people's brains are programed that way. The common mistake is in believing that if your brain is not wired for literal interpretations, it is tuned into Kjive and you're just making stuff up that has no basis in "reality."

What a person gets out of a studied and sober readding of Song of Songs might be a warm fable about a man and a woman, from that first date to consumation. Others might sense out a parable about the relations between the male and female parts of our psyche, and the relationship between our "soul" and the "Owl."

No one can tell you, Cintune, what that Owl is in a literal sense because like all things spiritual, it is know only by its effects, while the Owl itself remains ungreaspable. That is not "nebulous." That's just how it goes in that realm.

JL
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Most of you believers are one God away from being an atheist. Atheist numbers are growing. I imagine the atheists will be much more forgiving to believers than the believers were to those of no faith or the wrong faith, historically speaking. Perhaps those of faith should pray for kindness, just in case. :0
TY
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Klimmer
NO, Einstein did NOT believe in god in later years. Your quote is from 1929. Einstein wrote on 24 March 1954:


"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[8]
Eric Gutkind sent a copy of his book "Choose Life: The Biblical Call To Revolt"[10] to Einstein in 1954. Einstein sent Gutkind a letter in response and wrote, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."


By 1954, 25 years after your quotation, he was in no way a deist.
You're a science teacher? Please get your facts straight.


HT,
I have gone round and round with Norton on this before.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2172759&msg=2175825#msg2175825

I can agree with you to some degree. It seems Eistein went from a believer in HaShem (Judaism), Theist, in his youth ----> to Deism ----> to maybe Agnosticism.

But even reading the quote you gave, he is very careful to explain he doesn't believe in a "personal" G-d. Believing in a personal G-d is Theism. Believing in a non-personal G-d is Deism. He doesn't say there is no G-d.



Did Albert Einstein Believe in a Personal God?
by Rich Deem
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html




This book looks really good, I should order it and read it ...


Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology [Paperback]
Max Jammer (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/069110297X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=069110297X&link_code=as3&tag=savedbygracemini



From Publishers Weekly
Given the voluminous literature on Albert Einstein (including more than a dozen biographies in the 1990s alone), it is surprising that so little scholarly attention has been paid to the scientist's religious views. Israeli physics professor Jammer, who knew Einstein personally, shows us an Einstein whose nominal childhood faith turned to atheism while preparing for a bar mitzvah that never took place. From then on, Einstein's religious views were a bundle of apparent contradictions: he corresponded with the world's great spiritual leaders yet disapproved of religious instruction for his sons, arguing that it was "contrary to all scientific thinking." He claimed that "science without religion is lame" but never set foot in a synagogue and requested not to be buried in the Jewish tradition. While eluding definitive conclusions about Einstein's deistic "cosmic religion," Jammer demonstrates that religion fascinated the man throughout his career, prompting him to publish articles in the New York Times and elsewhere. Chapters 1 and 2 profile Einstein's religious development and the controversial reception his ideas found with theologians, rabbis and Christian clergy. The more recondite chapter 3 explores the theological implications of Einstein's theories (Jammer does not exaggerate when he cautions the reader that this section "requires some familiarity with the foundations of modern physics"). Jammer's writing is not always as sophisticated as his ideas; he relies too heavily on long quotations from other sources and abstruse jargon. In all, though, this is a compelling, long overdue treatment of a neglected topic. (Oct.)
Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc.



Edit:

What we can say for sure is that Einstein was an enigma in this regard.
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
Hey JE,

You wrote,
The message of Christianity has an inherent appeal to the humble, and an inherent repulsion to the proud. If self-pride and measured intelligence correlate positively, I would expect to find those with higher measured intelligence less likely to be attracted to a doctrine that says God exceeds humankind,

Those are interesting assertions. Do you have any evidence or studies to back them up? Are Christians more humble than non Christians? Are non Christians more proud than Christians. Does not seem like it would be terribly hard to do a study of these questions. If you compared the most humble Christian with the most humble non Christian would we see a difference? If you compared the most prideful Christian with the most prideful non Christian would we see a difference. Is there a difference in the average pridefulness and humbleness between Christians and non Christians?

Also, is self pride positively correlated with intelligence? Might seem self evident, but it seems to me that undo pride could interfere with intelligence.

Finally, do those with higher intelligence have trouble accepting that there are forces greater than humankind or do they have trouble accepting that one of those forces is called God?

In the article about intelligence and religiosity linked above:
Criticisms of the conclusions include that the paper only deals with a definition of analytic intelligence and fails to consider newly identified forms of creative and emotional intelligence.

I think this mirrors John's implied argument that Christianity appeals to a higher emotional intelligence while it does not appeal to analytical intelligence. Again, this is a position which is potentially testable. Do Christions have higher emotional intelligence than non Christians? We can start by just look at demographics. Do Christians have lower rates than non Christians, of crime, divorce, emotional illness, or similar?

This is really the big question. Are you emotionally more healthy being a Christian or being an atheist, or being something else? It seems like this answer varies dramatically between individuals. But it is also worth looking at averages. On average, are atheists or Christians more emotionally healthy and stable? Or is there any difference?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
From your own link, Klimmer:

Conclusion: No, Albert Einstein was not a Christian or even a theist (one who believes in a personal God), probably because he failed to understand why evil existed.

Also from that link:
"If you are an agnostic or atheist, my goal for you would be to recognize what Albert Einstein understood about the universe - that its amazing design demands the existence of a creator God."

A perfect, classic example of interpreting an event or statement according to one's own theologic purposes. Which is pretty much exactly what the Bible & Christianity is all about.
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
We all know that Christians can't know what they claim to know...and yet they're trying to tell us what to do and how to act based on THAT? AWWW HELL NO

(It's a paraphrased Hitchens line.)

Edit: Klimmer, the dude that posted all the stuff about there being aliens on mars and whatnot? How am I not surprised, then, that he is totally confused about what Einstein wrote/said?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Yo Dark,

Even Israeli physics professor Jammer, who knew Einstein personally, can't exactly say if Einstein was a Deist, Agnostic, or an Atheist. Read about Jammer above. Are you going to say you know for sure? What we can say is that Einstein is indeed an enigma is this regard. Many people are.

How many Atheists on ST are there now, that may in time become believers? Things are gonna change. G-d is gonna show what he says is true toward the end of this dispensation of time.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
"Even Israeli physics professor Jammer, who knew Einstein personally, can't exactly say if Einstein was a Deist, Agnostic, or an Atheist."

That's such a lame line of argument, Klimmer. You are making an argument that Einstein had some kind of religious belief, and then when your own source doesn't corroborate it very well, you simply reply, "well, no-one really knows for sure..."
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Paul,

I have no independent studies, other than my own personal experience, although I think the Bible is full of similar conclusions. The O.T. warns Israel of the danger of forgetting God when times are good, and Paul states in I Cor. that "the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing," going on to state that it's folly to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews.

Further, I always interpreted Jesus's saying, that unless one is like a little child, one cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, to require a massive amount of humility. I don't know about you, but in my life I haven't found humility and measured intelligence positively correlated.

I know -- and my wife (and, at times, Tim) reminds me -- that my personal pride is still a rather big problem for me.

Of course, I should also emphasize that any such study holds true, at most, only in the aggregate. It forms no rational basis for judging individuals' intelligence, however measured.

John

Edit: Neither does it form a basis for judging any individual's pride or humility. I know plenty of humble atheists and proud Christians. After all, there is no valid "law of small numbers" in statistics.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
How many Atheists on ST are there now, that may in time become believers? Things are gonna change. G-d is gonna show what he says is true toward the end of this dispensation of time.

This thread is definitely not going to convince anyone to pick up a bible, that is for sure!

BTW when's the due date on this dispensation of time? G-d has had a few false alarms already, just wondering what day I should book off work?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
You're looking for a "great mind" anywhere on supertopo?!?!?

BAHHHAAAHAAHAAAHAAAAHA!!!!!!!!11

Now there's a point that's hard to argue against, Dave. Good one!

John
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
A perfect, classic example of interpreting an event or statement according to one's own theologic purposes. Which is pretty much exactly what the Bible & Christianity is all about.


For everyone? Not for me, it's not. I don't need "God" to have made the world in seven days to get valuable insight from the Book.

I'd be interested in hearing what excperiences or study you pursued to lead you to believe you know, as a simple fact, "exactly" what the Bible and Christianity is all about.

Imagine someone saying they knew "exactly" what biology was all about having never taken any biology classes but rather went by heresay and what was scribbled out on a chat board plus the wonky behavior or fundamentalists. The idea that rigorous intelligence has not been applied to Christianity is foolishness. Many equate Christianity with Old TGestiment cosmology, which was relegated to mythology by leading theologians ages ago. Again, read a little Karl Barth and see for yourself.

IMO, you underestimate both yourself and the material.

JL
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
1st of all, who the F cares what Einstein believed and what impact does that even have on this discussion? There's an entire chapter in Dawkin's The God delusion dedicated to the subject and I am still trying to figure out why. He's one man in a hive of many. I have to assume he has been held up by the believers because he was a scientist and some of his quotes were way above their heads and now misinterpreted. How about the Christian head of the Gnome project, Francis Sellers Collins? I don't see him being held up as a trophy Christian scientist, why Einstein? Oh yeah, because they have to go through the list of dead one to find one who believes. Or maybe because he can't defend himself, the believers love dead people, I don't think you can be a saint until your dead too. I think Einstein was trying to speak the laymen language to describe a highly advanced concept, that everything is god, the universe is god. Dawkins refers to it as Einstein's god, and I doubt Einstein was ever able to properly communicate his true feelings. Basically he couldn't explain it, we couldn't understand and it's pretty meaningless because it's just one man's opinion and prospective, lots of scientists share in the belief of Einstein's god, yet they are highly atheist. I will use myself as an example. The fascination that science brings me, the miracles I observe, and the feelings I get (warm fuzzies) are all god, the universal god, the laws which govern everything. I personally believe this is what Einstein was trying to say, and you have to remember he was doing it in a time when saying such things in public would be much more detrimental to you place in society, he veiled his beliefs through the use of religious vocabulary. Those who understood the intrinsic meaning of his message, understood it, those who did not just thought he was talking about god and didn't get pissed at the blasphemous we now know it to be. The reason you do not hear from more atheists from our past is because of prosecution from the majority (Christians). In fact it's already been proven many times that politicians, back in the day, professed to be very religious when they were in fact closet atheists. This was the way of the world, and right now in Utah, there's a million kids having doubts and they are terrified to speak up or question one little thing because they will be ostracized by their entire community. It is not the past, it is the now.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
In most every sense of the word, you are a literalist of the physicalist variety. Note your comments above, in which the "Owl" is posited as an actual owl, and it's attributs are drawn from the particulars of the feathered bird.

Indeed. It's just that a good metaphor tends to follow through on all the particulars to get its point across cogently.

Not to mention that you do know I'm taking all of this very lightly.

You do know that, right?

So maybe the owl should be more like, I dunno, a savvy barn swallow, just magnanimously indifferent to the fray below and concerned with loftier things, befitting its station in the pecking order, eh?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
you are a high school public employee, you are not a designated interpreter for g-d, get it?


Norton,

Who's interpreting G-d? I'm just telling you what his word says.

You are one scary kinda dude. It's people like you I really worry about. So full of hate. So much so that you want to control what people do professionally based on their personal beliefs. Even the ACLU doesn't want to do that. They even protect people's jobs against people like you.

I'm ok working with gays, Hindu's, atheists, whomever. I don't seek to ruin or remove or hate others. We get along fine. We don't have to agree, but we get along fine.

I've already countless times told many including you that I don't ever talk about "Forbidden Secret Knowledge" at my job.

You would have the same lame fear and argument against all of our Founding Fathers of Modern Science. Wow. You're really a deep thinker. You probably would have had all of them canned whom ever was in a teaching posistion ...




Guess what? Where already getting there, the last days ...

What Will the Last Days Be Like?
By David J. Stewart
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20the%20World/last_days.htm
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
John,

I'm not sure if you're directing your last comment to me, but I never said that rigorous intelligence has not been applied to Christianity. It's simply my observation of life that a Christian message of humanity's unworthiness and need for redemption that only God can provide would be more attractive to the humble than to the proud.

The history of Christian doctrine demonstrates that a very great deal of rigorous intelligence has been applied to Christianity by Christians, and starting much earlier than Barth. Augustine, Chrysostom, and many others from long ago had rather keen intelligence, too.

If you're saying that there is no such thing as an essential definition of Christianity, I would tend to agree, which is why I qualified it by the term "orthodox," which does have a generally-accepted core of belief.

Of course, if you didn't refer to what I said, never mind. . .

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
"1st of all, who the F cares what Einstein believed and what impact does that even have on this discussion?"

Agreed that it really doesn't mean a damn thing, but deists constantly circulate tweaked Einstein quotes as evidence that a true person of science believes in G-d. It's nothing more than taking quotes of a dead guy, and then tweaking them to make your own point, regardless of how detached that point might be from the belief or intent of the person who actually said it.

That's the parallel I'm trying to draw with the Bible & Christianity, btw.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
Klimmer, I think you are missing the point. It's the nature of the job and your perspective on things which you cannot or do not know to be true, yet still believe. Knowing what I know about you and your beliefs, if you were my child's teacher, regardless of what you did or did not do in the classroom, I would remove my daughter from your class. We have a right to protect ourselves and our children from people like you, just as much as you have the right to wear a tin foil hat and pray to a dead body on a cross.

If I was a teacher and some Christian parents came in all pissed because I was teaching science instead of creationism, I would be sad and disappointed, but it's their right to brain wash their children, at least till they are 18, lol..

You can profess all day long that you do not let your beliefs enter that classroom, but you are your beliefs just as much as I own mine. Everything you present and teach comes with a perspective, bias and nuance, whether you try to hide it or not, it's there. You don't even have to be in the learning field (as you and I both are) to understand that. Everyone here went to school and experienced exactly what I am talking about from almost every teacher.

I will admit that my liberal views on economics and government are a direct result of a high school teacher. My strong interest in history is because of a great story teller and theologian, also one of my teachers. Our parents have the greatest effect on our early lives and we almost become them, accepting their beliefs until we have heard otherwise or gathered enough info to make up our own mind. Hell even the ladies will change religions or political leanings when meeting a new man.

Do I need to go on?

You have an interesting and risky profession for someone with your beliefs, that goes without saying..
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Edit: Klimmer, the dude that posted all the stuff about there being aliens on mars and whatnot? How am I not surprised, then, that he is totally confused about what Einstein wrote/said?


Dark,

Since you brought it up, Aliens on Mars! Lol.


A Fossil Hunter's Guide to Mars
by Sir Charles W. Shults III
http://www.shultslaboratories.com/AFHG2MPR.htm


All from official NASA images ...





There are fossil alien life forms on Mars! But their actual more familiar than Alien: Stromatolites, Crinoids, Mollusks, etc. etc.

But we're not supposed to talk about it. SSSSsssshhhhhhh. It's "Forbidden Secret Knowledge." Sometimes pure science gets suppressed. Sad really.



Q: So how does Evolution and terra forming occur exactly parallel on two very distant terrestrial planets? Man, I want to know exactly how that happens. I guess I should start a separate thread for that can of worms. Pardon the pun. Lol.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
And yes Jaybro, I'm still climbing, just not with people and I'm not spraying about it. My daughter has also slowed me down a little, but I don't mind, I can tell she's gonna be a good climber, lol..
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
I want what klimmer is smoking, anyone have any?

I bet there it's extremely rare that he offers any science from someone not trying to sell you something...

Hey klimmer, how about a link to a scientific journal that published this science you speak of? Why do we need to buy a book or CD from some quack job. Do you even ask yourself these questions?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Jeebus, Klimmer.

Teachers like you make me appreciate Michelle Rhee all the more.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
You have an interesting and risky profession for someone with your beliefs, that goes without saying..


Squishy,


You'd have the same complaints regarding Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and yes dare I say it ... Einstein. They all did science and they all thought about these things: G-d, faith, theology, at deep levels.

Should I put you in the same camp as Norton? The camp of Intolerance?

Why not go after Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or those who practice Judaism, or any other scientist or teacher of faith? Why do you single out Christians or Messianic Judaic Jews who are scientists and teachers?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Klimmer, my problem is that I don't think you can compartmentalize your kookery to outside of the classroom.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
Because you are linking to people who are trying to sell things, people who offer nothing but cool aid for the crazy and insane in the name of money...if you were simply a Christian I wouldn't have said sh#t, but you are admitting to wearing a tinfoil hat, you just hinted at the existence of "real" science, like we need a distinction. I have heard that before, from men at a pulpit telling me science is the seed of the devil and evidence has been planted...

Tell me, what would motivate any human to suppress real knowledge (real data, reproducible results and long lasting theory)?

And then just take one moment to think about what would motivate someone to make up bullshit knowledge to sell to you...

are you truly that naive?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
Do you have any evidence or studies to back them up? Are Christians more humble than non Christians?


That's not John's claim. He said the message appealed to the humble.

Christianity is the religion where God was born in a barn and died suffering the punishment of a common criminal.

That's pretty humble.

A religion with the basic premise that everyone is equally worthless.

It was a novel concept for religion, especially two thousand years ago.

Much in modern Christianity has deviated from the core message.

The message does appeal to the humble, even though it is frequently exploited by the powerful.

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
Jesus was just a stoner...
http://www.hightimes.com/read/was-jesus-stoner
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/06/science.religion
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
Tell me, what would motivate any human to suppress real knowledge (real data, reproducible results and long lasting theory)?

And then just take one moment to think about what would motivate someone to make up bullshit knowledge to sell to you...

are you truly that naive?





Squishy,


Think of the implications of life on Mars: Stromatolites, crinoids, mollusks etc.? That would upset the apple cart tremendously.

I don't have knee jerk reactions concerning possible revolutionary ideas and discoveries. I actually do look into things. Curious minds want to know.

I have the CD and have read it and looked at all the images, many are in 3D. The visual evidence to me seems overwhelming. Remote sensing is a science and an art. You can look at ratios, patterns, and mathematical ratios of patterns, and sizes of the fossils remotely and prove they're authentic. You can even determine the Genus, and the species. However, on Mars these would all be new species within the same Genus that we have here on Earth.

Aren't you the least curious?



Many others are looking into it also ...



Comments and Reviews

"Sir Charles has done a stellar job in identifying fossils on Mars"
- Dr. David Livingston
Host of The Space Show

“There is no question that these are sand dollars- biological markings of not complex life but life, really life on Mars. I can see this very clearly, even with my two-dimensional vision.”
- Art Bell
Host of Coast to Coast AM radio

“I know that your findings are correct; I can’t think of any other reasonable explanation. Those are fossils, but to admit it is professional suicide!
- Michael Fulton, PhD
Designer of NASA’s Deep Space One
spacecraft power system

“Wow, to spend an hour with the man himself seeing the raw data- this is going to be the best book on Mars ever.”
- Dr. Charles Ostman
UN Science Advisor and Nanotechnologist

“This is hard evidence of water on Mars. Everything we have been told is wrong, Mars has water and weather just like Earth."
- Mike Hagan
Host of Radio Orbit

“Life on Mars today would definitely be underground where the water is.”
- Dr. Michio Kaku, PhD
Theoretical Physicist

"I highly recommend it. One of the best examples of a multimedia presented peer reviewable 'paper' on an arcane topic I've ever read."
- Keith Laney
Astronomical Image Processor

"Sir Charles' refutation of NASA's numerous obfuscations, which he does easily and severally, I found entertaining. In any event, for any with interest in the subject of past and/or present life on Mars, and demonstrable fossils thereof, 'A Fossil Hunter's Guide to Mars' is, in a word, groundbreaking. Unless I miss my guess, in future years this study shall be highly regarded, indeed. I'd buy it if I were you."
- Kenneth Johnson
Sand Point, Alaska




You seem to think suppression doesn't occur. It occurs often. How long did the military and our government deny there was an Area 51? They still don't like to admit it. But they now have reluctantly on record admitted that it does indeed exist. The same can and does happen in science at times. Sadly.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Klimmer, my problem is that I don't think you can compartmentalize your kookery to outside of the classroom.


Dirt,


You are correct. You don't think.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Thanks for your post, Dave, but I have to make one change. While orthodox Christian doctrine includes the belief that humanity is helpless, it does not conclude that it is worthless. If anything, the lengths to which God went to redeem humanity would imply that we have infinite worth.

It's our personal righteousness that's worthless.

John
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Illuminati...bible codes... Noah's ark on the moon... Yeah I want the guy who believes that stuff teaching my kids science. Lol
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
Do you think a small list of endorsements which includes two radio show hosts (I have listened to Art Bell by the way and it's all sensationalism and bull) outweighs the fact that you had to purchase that info? Not to mention the giant gorilla in the room, Are you saying all the scientists who actually took those photos and analyzed them are suppressing data or are too stupid to see the truth while the dude selling the CD can? What you are saying is that we don't need a space program, we don't need NASA, mainly because they are untrustworthy or too stupid to do their job, but we should trust some dude with a web page who wants our ten bucks?

Again, are you truly this naive?

Let me give you a very simple bit of advice, if "they" (anyone) wants your money, it's bullshit or at least deserves the most skeptical viewpoint you can muster.

You sir, are failing at critical thinking. There are entire industries built around people like you and I am sort of stupid for not getting in on the action based on the stubbornness of your ignorance.

I am not trying to put you down, I don't want to call you names, but I am at a complete loss. Tell me, how can I help you? I actually feel bad for you. Do you have any wiggle room, doubts or questions that I may be able to help you with? I am not knowledgeable, by far, I am prolly just as ignorant as you, but I am skeptical enough to recognize bullshit when it's staring me in the face.

Sure, mars most likely had life on it, NASA has said as much, but it was a very long time ago and I am sure there's signs of it. But some dude taking stock nasa photos and identifying little round balls and spinning it, does not deserve your money. Please go to Nasa.com and read read read, and ask questions till you are blue in the face if that is what interests you. When you reach the limit of your understand, you most likely reached the language barrier and at that point you need to take the scientist's findings at face value. But don't pay for some dude to do all this for you...I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are lazy (and have money to blow)...

Learning is not a spectator sport...
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Go suck a wolf dong, then take your banning like a man.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Squishy,

Seems you have anger issues. Don't blow a gasket.

You call something BS and yet you don't even look into it. That is a knee-jerk reaction. That is the height purposeful ignorance, of putting your head in the ground.

I'm all for NASA. We should be doing more not less. However, pure science and knowledge does get suppressed. NASA recall is also a political entity and politically motivated depending who pulls the strings.

Hey, the former NASA "Moonwalkers" have a great deal to say about Aliens. Yes, little green beings, yet NASA is completely mum or denies all the testimony of former Astronauts, NASA employees, military officers etc. etc. etc.

We are indeed living in very interesting times.



Sure, mars most likely had life on it, NASA has said as much, but it was a very long time ago and I am sure there's signs of it. But some dude taking stock nasa photos and identifying little round balls and spinning it, does not deserve your money. Please go to Nasa.com and read read read, and ask questions till you are blue in the face if that is what interests you. When you reach the limit of your understand, you most likely reached the language barrier and at that point you need to take the scientist's findings at face value. But don't pay for some dude to do all this for you...I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are lazy (and have money to blow)...

Learning is not a spectator sport...


Sounds like you're beginning to back peddle.


The implications of finding fossilized life forms on Mars is revolutionary to say the least, as I said before. If there are indeed fossilized Stromatolites, Crinoids, Mollusks etc. on Mars, then it seems to suggest exact parallel Evolution and terra forming processes on 2 very distant terrestrial planets. Modern Evolution really has no explanation for that kind of model.

The evidence suggests something far more wonderful ...



Edit:


Aug 13, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Go suck a wolf dong, then take your banning like a man.



Dirtbag,


So you ban someone who comes to my defense? Lol. I thought he had nice things to say.

And why would you have the power to ban posters on ST?
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
You sir, are failing at critical thinking.

But it's so much more than that.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Indeed. It's just that a good metaphor tends to follow through on all the particulars to get its point across cogently.
-


The "point" that you seek is IME found through personal effort beyond merely thinking about something. Nothing is a given in the spiritual arena because to make any ground there, you have to go against Nature, in a sense - at least the survival mode we are programmed to operarte out of as our standard MO.

Most of us want a "point" that will tally alongside facts and figures of the numericl type. No harm in wanting these, since those are the symbols we all grew up with and they apply to the physical realm in ways our minds can readily get hold of. But it does not work that way with things spiritual - nor is the spiritual uniquely related to felings, beliefs, faith, etc. Presence and truth are the basics, but they are not so easily had IME, and never completely.

Of course there have ben ghastly thngs done in the name of Christianity, and we are advised to go to other sources beyond the Old Testiment for our cosmologies. Bickering with those who hold onto literal takes on old school bibilcal yarns about creation et al is arguing at a very rudimentary level. The discussions that make a difference in the lives we lead all have to do with the Owl. We borrow its eyes to see.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Klimmer, that would be convergent evolution, and since it happens all the time here, it really wouldn't be all that surprising if it happened elsewhere. Life is very practical that way.

Of course I think your evidence is, shall we say, thin at best, but all the same it wouldn't be a huge shock if something along the lines of Precambrian life did manage to get a pseudopod-hold on Mars for a bit, until things apparently went south.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
It's our personal righteousness that's worthless.

Thanks for the clarification, John.

I was borrowing the term "equally worthless" from this guy:





cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Largo, points well taken, and we've been over this before, I'd just point out that I have in fact moved past the explicit Christianity-bashing. Gotta grow up sometime. It was fun, but ultimately pointless, really. People believe what they want to believe, for reasons that apparently can't be reasoned with. I wish them all the best anyway.

Jawon

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
OK, here goes, I'm getting sucked in. Let me first clarify, my intent is not to sway anyone's position in this online forum. I think I have a better chance of redpointing a 14a thin seam in tennis shoes. I'm just curious if the tenor of this debate would change if the focus was on something else because it feels like we're debating the virtues of Yosemite based on single-pitch cliffs while ignoring the big walls.

"Why does everyone hate Christianity so much?" To summarize based on this thread...

Christians are hypocrites.
Christians judge me.
Christians are brainwashers.
Christians are selfish.
Christians don't use reason and science.
Christians taint our policies.
Christians restrict my freedom.
Christians have caused so much pain in the name of God.

I'm sure I missed some, but I think that's a pretty good summary. We all know it's true, let's not fool ourselves into thinking otherwise. So moving on to the next question...

"Why does everyone hate Jesus so much?"

Interestingly, Jesus essentially had the same list of criticisms to the religious majority of his time. He was a rebel, questioning how religion was being practiced. He came, like many of you, wanting none of the religious mold on this earth. If Jesus lived in our time, you'd see him at Camp 4 in The Valley, messing with authority. And many of you would have gladly roped up with him, talking smack at each belay station about those holy joes.

Which goes back to my question... Why does everyone hate Jesus so much? I'd like to think that most of you DON'T hate Jesus or his teachings, and that the hatred is towards religious practitioners who've gotten very good at bending their gods to THEIR will.

Jesus lived 2000 years ago. That's really not that long ago. It's not like we're talking about neanderthals. No matter your position, you cannot dispute his existence. OK, you can and you probably will. But what I've learned is that non-Christian historians say he existed. Secular writers of his time mention him. If you give me a temporary benefit of the doubt on this one, let's move on and I just want to know whether Jesus himself, not his errant followers, rubs you the wrong way?

If you haven't read the Gospels and at least one of Paul's letters (my personal favorite is Galatians), you should, at the very least to be more credible in these debates. Judging Christianity based on barbaric crusaders, extremist bombers, "God hates fags" protestors, outspoken televangelists, and paparazzi following Scientologists, is like judging climbing based on Half Dome free soloists and 15a first ascencionists. Yes, I just compared Honnold to an extremist, but only for making this point :) They get the hype, but I will argue they don't represent the "essence" of climbing for most of us. Pushing personal limits within safe bounds, finding our personal adventures, connecting with the mountain. We need to look beyond the headlines to understand what climbing is about. We need to look beyond the headlines to understand what Jesus is about.

In fact, the words "Christian" and "Christianity" have way too much emotional and historical baggage. I now tell people I'm a Jesus-follower. In this complex world, there are now such things as Muslim Jesus-followers. Being "Muslim" can be a tag for a way of life. Being a Jesus-follower is about who you turn to. These are not contradictory. You can even be a Jesus-following scientist, God forbid. I'm a statistical analyst, lover of reason, data-driven, and have gone (and continue to go) through lots of research to learn about Jesus, as well as other religions. So no, I did not throw away critical thinking to be a follower of Jesus, in fact my faith is stronger for it.

I hate what some Christians have done to this world. Jesus did too. We've gone off route, way off route. We can agree on that. But I love that he came to get us back on route. And debate like this can be good because as CS Lewis put it "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

So really, why does everyone hate Jesus so much?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
Klimmer I didn't call for him to be banned nor do I have any banning authority. But since he had been banned, I believe he should respect the process. I said he should act like a man and take his banishment.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
Jawon,

Like I said before, it exites me to be apart of the dissussion because of people just like you. That was a brilliant post and I can't disagree with one word of it. Your characterization of Jesus is spot on (IMO), it's plain to see you've done the homework. I hope you stick around, I am curious about the details of your belief.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
No, seems disingenuous to me.
I now tell people I'm a Jesus-follower.

All those words yet not one mention of the fundamental that set it all off: is it FOR YOU Jesus (the God) follower? or Jesus (the man-philosopher) follower?

Big difference. Big.

Is Jawon a man or mouse? squeak up...

.....

However... Thank the gods for the likes of Cintune and Squishy. But Squishy was batting near 1000 till that last post.

Squishy, I think you're a Sam Harris fan to some degree. So ask yourself: What would Sam Harris say? to Jawon's post. Food for thought.


Edit: thank the fates (aka gods) for Malemute, Norton and Dr. F, too. Or we'd be overrun around here!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
The good news is that, anthropologically speaking, we are nearing the end of religion.


Belief and disbelief have always been a component of human society...acting as a counterpoise, one to the other. That will continue, never reaching a symmetry...

The roots of the dissonance are in our child-mind...alternately accepting and rejecting authority of parents...as we learn to manipulate by refusing/accepting, spurning/approving, etc.

American atheists have suffered shoddy treatment from pseudo-christian authority and desire emotional and intellectual defrayal from the "I'm saved, but you're not" debasement. So they learn to provoke, as they've been provoked...learn to demean, as they've been demeaned.

Demonization is usually a two-way street, and we learn it by being demonized ourself.

This cycle of discord between the religious and irreligious will increase intensity in coming years...but religion, belief in god vs. anti-religion and disbelief will ultimately continue in equipoise to one another.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
It's not like we're talking about neanderthals.

Neanderthals lived between 10,000 and 100,000 years ago. There is ample physical evidence to support this estimate.

Many Christians believe the earth is 6,000 years old. They have no reasoned explanation for neanderthal fossils.

I don't think anybody here has expressed any hatred toward Jesus, but some think he never really existed. There is no physical and very little historical evidence supporting the existence of Jesus.

I get what you are saying, that many criticisms of Christianity have nothing to do with Christ.

But then again, much of modern Christianity has nothing to do with Christ.

Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
Belief and disbelief have always been a component of human society...acting as a counterpoise, one to the other. That will continue, never reaching a symmetry...

The roots of the dissonance are in our child-mind...alternately accepting and rejecting authority of parents...as we learn to manipulate by refusing/accepting, spurning/approving, etc.

American atheists has suffered shoddy treatment from pseudo-christian authority and desire emotional and intellectual defrayal from the "I'm saved, but you're not" debasement. So they learn to provoke, as they've been provoked...learn to demean, as they've been demeaned.

Demonization is usually a two-way street, and we learn it by being demonized ourself.

This cycle of discord between the religious and irreligious will increase intensity in coming years...but religion, belief in god vs. anti-religion and disbelief will ultimately continue in equipoise to one another.

Well said, sister. There is wisdom in those words.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
Well said, sister. There is wisdom in those words.
Ha, I knew someone would post something along these lines, lol!

To my eyes and ears, it's the old Jennie and the same old "pedanticism."

Different strokes for different folks. Eh? :)

(Just sorry it was you wayno.) ;)

...counterpoise...never reaching a symmetry... pseudo-christian authority... emotional and intellectual defrayal... Demonization ... continue in equipoise to one another.

Really I'm surprised you didn't throw in... "logical implication and conversational implicature" !!

C'mon, spare me. Aughh! Jesus H. Bomz!!
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
Yeah Jawon, Jesus the god? Or Jesus the man?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
It's funny, in a way: according to them, despite all the problems facing humanity, who is buggering who is one of God's top concerns.

God is a weird dude.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
The good news is that, anthropologically speaking, we are nearing the end of religion.


Belief and disbelief have always been a component of human society...acting as a counterpoise, one to the other. That will continue, never reaching a symmetry...
---


I was a Christian basher once as well. Then I studied some theology and realized the heavy weight stuff was not a matter of questioning Genesis as historical fact, or fishing 10,000 trout from a basket, but far deeper material having to do with stuff not easily grasped.

That much said, I would agree that we are nearling the end of old school religion and moving toward spirituality, which is not a task of wrangling parts or bits or fragments - which is what narrow-focused discursive thinkign begets - but from living with the whole in ways that are vastly counter-intuitive and require a lot of work to get hold of in any meaningful way. The belief that all of this material is a given, that all we have to do is unleash our "minds" on it and viola - we GOT it, is just silly.

Insisting that spiritual concerns should be easy as pie to get hold of and understand is like blaming physics for being complicated and difficult to grasp - then blaming pysics because of it. Hey, if you can't tell me in simple terms why the hell energy is never lost or created, then the whole thing must be wrong. Right? Fact is, physics takes a lot of work to get straight on, at even the dumbass level at which I undeerstand some basics.

The other side of the coin is a fundamentalst take or MO per either physicalism or spirituality, basically expecing too much for either. People like Fruity insist that technology will soon provide the very solutions for the age-old ills of mankind, not seeing that technology has not eliminited our aggression, to mention one thing, but it's given us drones and miniguns which do the job more efficiently than muskets and swords. But when someone is marooned in a perspective, expecting the sun and moon from either science or spirituality, they will have blind spots the size of the Crab Nebula - we can easily see why. Arguing with same is to totally dishonor your time, a lessing I had to learn the hard way.

JL
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
What do people think spiritual is? Is that not just another excuse or way to rationalize that which we do not understand? I don't even accept personal testimony as proof of anything in light of what the mind can do. I have heard the stories, I am sure you guys know what the mind can produce as well.

Show me the experiment, if I cannot reproduce it and gather the same data you did, it is simply not...that is the measure we should apply to all human knowledge. Just don't expect solid answers to our original questions, and don't assume, theorize.

I should heed my own words sometimes, I accept I am only a human animal, like every one else, just another selfish, biased as#@&%e, like a plague, reshaping and destroying our earth. What is this spirit thing you speak of? Is that like string theory? But with spirits, lol. You'll have to excuse me I am dabbling in neurobiology and chemistry at the moment...
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
What is this spirit thing you speak of?
It's a con perpetuated by some who lust after money, sex, and power.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
which is what narrow-focused discursive thinkign begets - but from living with the whole in ways that are vastly counter-intuitive and require a lot of work to get hold of

I thought we left this on the god thread??

.....

Norton, you're encouraging him, lol!
Afterall, he's got enough going on already...
Largo/JL did you get to read through the recent Amber Alert thread i started

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2200917/supertopo-account-closure
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
I am not strongly critical of discursive mind. How do you think I wrote all those anchor books? Try that some time - it will tie your brain in knots trying to plainly explain a giant cluster-f*#ked anchor array.

What I don't claim is that the discursive or rational mind is the end-all, nor do I expect it to do more than it was made to do. This is what scientism is - expecting rationalit to provide all the information. Everything is NOT science and every realm cannot be divided and conquered and understood in that way, no matter how much we want the world to be as such. But it ain't.
Attempts do so only dumb down the ungraspable heart of it all.

This is all made clear in the statement: What do people think spiritual is?

If you're thinking, you are not in the realm. This does not mean, whatsoever, that non-thining or no-mind is the equal of jibberish or irrationality, rather hyper-rationality.

Spirituality is the process of getting there. Asking "Where is that" is a question from the rational mind. The more frutiful question is: How do I get there. Answer: Shut the f*#k up and settle. Then you're off to the races. Thinking is what you do before and after, but not during the exploration. Any more than you work on ridles or limericks in the middle of a hard lead. Wrong place, wrong tactic.

What this all boils down to is that all of us, before we learn otherwise, demand that all of reality be the rightful province of discursive thought. It is, in a way, but you have to travel far with no thought or whatever you find will be a projection, not the Owl looking behind the forms. None of this will square with the rational mind, which rightfully balks when hearing it is left out of the game, even for a moment.

But that's the game, and it's been that way going on forever - a game that lies beyond facts and figures, fuzzy felings, qualia of all types, all beliefs, ideas, imaginings and labels. This last one is perhaps the hardest to understand, that there are qualities out there beyond symbolic representation. Our rational minds simply cannot get hold of "that."

JL



Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 13, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
Largo is trying to distract the discussion away from criticism of his pedophilic religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
If all else fails, accuse your antagonists of pedophillia!!
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
It's not an accusation, it's a well documented fact. Read the links.

Or are you saying the church gets a free pass?
Do laws not apply to the church?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
I believe you know what I'm saying.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
I believe you are using weasel words because you have no rational defense.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
I think largo is defining conscious, the question on whether we are and the theories of what it is.

Yes the subject has scientific theories..
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
Definitions of consciousness, spirit, etc have nothing to do with defense of the evils of organized religion.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
I believe I just saw a squirrel, but I am not quite sure, might have been the virgin Mary...
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
Did you know that Judaism does not believe in the virgin birth?
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/comparison_charts/islam_judaism_christianity.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus

Isn't it kind of odd that a supernatural being would create two strikingly different religions about itself? Yet this would be perfectly understandable if they were made up by men.

Does this look like the work of God?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
Meanwhile...Rome burns...!
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
Why is Occam's Razor not the starting point of any discussion about religion?
http://www.richarddawkins.net/discussions/2012/9/2/why-is-occam-s-razor-not-the-starting-point-of-any-discussion-about-religion

S(h)aving Religion with Occam’s Razor: A Comparison of Atheist and Religious Morality
http://www.stateofnature.org/?p=5649
^this article is really good^
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
I wish someone would take a razor to this thread...
Jawon

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:24am PT
So I'm getting crickets to my follow up question. I guess being buried as post #399 of this thread doesn't get me much airtime. If you haven't read my post, please do in the prior page I think. It's a sincere question... Why does everyone hate Jesus so much?

squishy:

Like I said before, it exites me to be apart of the dissussion because of people just like you. That was a brilliant post and I can't disagree with one word of it. Your characterization of Jesus is spot on (IMO), it's plain to see you've done the homework. I hope you stick around, I am curious about the details of your belief.


Thank you. Yes, it is invigorating when informed debates can happen.

High Fructose Corn Spirit:

All those words yet not one mention of the fundamental that set it all off: is it FOR YOU Jesus (the God) follower? or Jesus (the man-philosopher) follower?

Sorry for that oversight. The answer is Yes to all of it. I am a follower of Jesus the God/man/philosopher. All of it. Which btw is one of the characteristics that makes him unique.

Dave Kos:

Many Christians believe the earth is 6,000 years old. They have no reasoned explanation for neanderthal fossils.

I wouldn't say "many" Christians believe in the "young earth" theory, I sure don't. And I DO have a reasoned explanation for neanderthal fossils. Let's not over generalize. I won't get into details, but what I've learned is that science and the bible do NOT conflict on this matter nor many others.

In fact, since the God I believe in both inspired the bible AND created this world, my logical conclusion is that science and the bible SHOULD agree. And if you dig beneath the surface, they do. And it will probably surprise you. And it opens up a whole new appreciation for both sides. How cool would that be to eventually get to a point where the words of God and the findings of science shore each other up. That's the kind of richness I long for and I think we are further along than most people think.

Norton:

wanna know what really pisses me off about Klimmer and all the other fundamentalist Christians?
among many other things..
it is that they are obsessed with BODY PARTS
know WHY they oppose same sex marriage?

That pisses me off too. Now I'm going to get flamed by both sides of the aisle here. There are plenty of us Christians who do NOT oppose same sex marriage. I'll leave it at that.

My point in all this is that there is such variety in what Christians believe and don't believe. To turn away from a religion because of a few outspoken people is like avoiding that 4 star classic because a few climbers poo-pooed it after an epic fail. The scary thing for you is that I am probably more like you than you'd wish!

I see posts getting pretty brutal here and I've already broken my rule of talking religion with people I don't have a personal relationship with, so I'm going to stop adding to the chatter. But if you happen to have a sincere comment or question you want me to respond to AND are willing to hear something that may not fit inside your box, I'm certainly willing to share what I've learned.

And back to my first post in this thread, these topics are all distractions anyway to the crux of the matter. Now, why won't anyone answer my question, why do so many people hate Jesus so much? :)
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:46am PT
As I said earlier, we'd all be better off if the bible consisted of the 4 gospels.

What annoys me is how organized religion interferes with science & politics.

You can't expect decent muslims to denounce muslim nutbars if decent christians don't denounce christian nutbars.

Any christian who prefers old testament outlook to new testament outlook is no christian.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:53am PT
What's to like?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:56am PT
Believe what you need to but when you dismiss the beliefs of others and insist that your's are the real thing, you have crossed a line of decency. Many versions of Christianity proselytize thus rejecting another's beliefs; this is wrong.
John M

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:00am PT
Believe what you need to but when you dismiss the beliefs of others and insist that your's are the real thing, you have crossed a line of decency. Many versions of Christianity proselytize thus rejecting another's beliefs; this is wrong.

You mean like when anyone on this forum says they believe in God, a whole raft of people show up to deride their beliefs?
WBraun

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:12am PT
You mean like when anyone on this forum says they believe in God, a whole raft of people show up to deride their beliefs?


LOL hahaha

All these stupid hypocrites in this thread just got pawned ........
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:32am PT
The OT, the Torah, the Tenakh is the foundation. The NT is Commentary on the OT. They go hand in hand. If you don’t understand this vital truth then your theology is really massively wrong. You’re only using half of G-d’s word. Yeshua didn't come to start a new religion. It’s Judaism with Messiah. The Jews were waiting for the Messiah. And he’s the Mashiach, the Messiah.

The Messianic Hebrews, the Messianic Jews were Torah observant. They were zealous for the law. The difference is that there was no more curse under the law, no more capital punishment, no more physical death for breaking Torah, but love and forgiveness, in Messianic Judaism. Yeshua paid the price. He is the all-time and once and forever Lamb of G-d for all our sins and our redemption.

No more need to sacrifice animals for the atonement of sin. It's been paid. Paid in full. (However, there will be sacrifices of love, offerings, and devotion for and to G-d in the 3rd and 4th Temple to come. But not for the atonement for sin. Yeshua paid it. He is the final sacrifice for sin for all time.)

You must be born again, and once your sins are forgiven, you are expected to go and sin no more. You will fall. We are human. Ask forgiveness, get up, shake off the dust and continue on. It’s a life process. It took 40 years for G-d to set the nation of Israel straight and rid them of their sinful ways, including homosexuality and worse.



The Bible throughout the OT and NT is very clear on the subject of homosexuality.

Q: What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?
A: A lot. Yes, it’s a sin, so therefore don’t do it.
http://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-Bible.html

Q: What does the Bible say about gay marriage / same sex marriage?
A: Don’t do it. Don’t do it. It’s a sin.
http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html

Q: Can a person be born gay?
A: No. Not really.
http://www.gotquestions.org/born-gay.html

Q: Why are Christians homophobic?
A: True Christians aren’t.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-homophobic.html
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:39am PT
Why does 'convincing others to our viewpoint' hold such an important part of our egos? Is religion and faith so frail it cannot stand alone? Dunno but that seems silly. Power rush? Feeling of being a savior? See yourself as a do-gooder? Were you ordered to post to this thread, by person of cloth or the god she claims to speak for? Does having others go 'oh fine, FINE! You're right, OK YOU'RE GODDAMNED RIGHT!!!!!' give you satisfaction? If it fetish pleasure to destroy somebody's faith, handing them a bag of sh#t with some formulas on the outside and maybe some xanax too.

I'd included pretty much all of us posting to this thread, in this group, to a person; sinner, saint, self appointed grurus, self-avowed atheists (who post endlessly to religious threads, wtf is UP WITH THAT!!!); fancy word smyths that artfully tap dance around answering any question directly, the re-wire society society, and those busily working on imposing the next new fangled religion on our children and grand kids.

WHY do you all proselytize endlessly?

A honest question for anyone with the desire and frankness to answer:

What is your precentage of doubt regarding your own beliefs of creation? I include the universe, how the galaxies stars and planets came to be, how life and then high forms of life developed, consciousness was born and the origins and eventual disposition of the human body and this thing we call soul... no matter WHAT your view of those items, disparate and incoherent or cohesive and grounded in tradition and ritual, whatever....

What is your assessment of your own doubt about your own beliefs and your own faith - give me a & of wrong. I don't want to know about your confidence, I want to know about your lack of confidence, a much more meaningful test if faith, anyway. But it does take honesty to the 6,000 year old earth believcer/liars are kindly asked to refrain from responding.

I'll go first - I have a very high degree of unbcertainty that my world view of religion is correct. Whatever I think I know is probably 90% wrong.

Any takers?

How UNsure are you?

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:44am PT
Is it fetish pleasure to destroy somebody's faith, handing them a bag of sh#t with some formulas on the outside and maybe some xanax too.

As far as the science and post-religious side of it goes, I suppose you have to be something of a cultural evolution junkie, a civilization junkie, a science, engineering and technology junkie, maybe even a Star Trek junkie to understand.

At bottom, if you have to ask, you probably won't get it.

Regarding the xanax side of it... pretty scary. I've thought about it many years now, I don't know how H. sapiens is going to get around this one. As technology, it seems set like a pandora's box ready to explode.

It's certainly a false equivalency, I think, to compare the quality of belief - or the reasonableness of belief - between religious education and science education. Which, if we're going to be totally honest, you've always done around here. Give me a airplane, a jetliner, to a chariot of fire to ascend the clouds anyday. :)

.....

fancy word smyths that artfully tap dance around answering any question directly

Really I think this only describes one or two around here, and from the religious-spiritual side of it.
sullly

Trad climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:45am PT
"fancy word smyths that artfully tap dance around answering any question directly"

OMFG. You have made my day with that one, Dingus. Hilariously accurate. Why do perfectly intelligent people keep coming back to kiss his (Sir Wordsmith's) ring?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:47am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:53am PT
Studly,

Thanks. Hadn't heard Amy sing that before. Baruch HaShem.