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Messages 1 - 1740 of total 1740 in this topic
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
I don't hate religion or the concept of Christianity, it's the people who proliferate it, evangelize it, bastardize it, kill in the name of it, and otherwise ram it down the throats of everyone around them that irritates the sh*t outta me.


Aside from that, it's great!
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
this thread will get more responses than the TR I just posted...

just saying
PP

Trad climber
SF,CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
Because we had to go to church when we were kids.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
Are we supposed to love christians, but hate christianity? Or love christianity, but hate christians? Religion is so confusing.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
"I don't hate religion or the concept of Christianity, it's the people who proliferate it, evangelize it, bastardize it, kill in the name of it, and otherwise ram it down the throats of everyone around them that irritates the sh*t outta me."

Apogee nails it. Add to that, that Christianity has slaughtered and enslaved more people in history than any other entity....

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:29pm PT
Communisim has it beat by an order of magnitude or so.
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
TGT, I doubt that very seriously, but it would be an interesting comparison.
sportcamper

Trad climber
gunx
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
Personally, I think it is that t.v. show about .. The Duggers?, 18 and counting... that is making me cringe...
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
It's the organization that's the problem. I'm a Catholic by birth and now by choice, but I'm the first to admit that the church has had some really less than stellar moments.

Even if we presume that God is perfect, people are from it. As long as they're the ones running the church, whether it be large or small, it's only going to be as good as the person(s) running it. It's kind of like family. Some of them may be really f-ed up, but you love them anyways.

Few things in this world are perfect. Organized religion is a perfect example of that.
bwancy1

Trad climber
Here
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
Because of the christians.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
Nefarious, Jesus who never started a church or a religion said, to love your enemies....bless them that curse you.

I ask over and over why and what is the point in grouping people under one umbrella we are all different. I try hard not to give people labels. If you do often you don't get to know the individual who may be a pretty terrific person and have some great gifts to offer.

The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition..... don't think that's what Jesus had in mind. :D Jess sayin', Lynnie
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZF5uQfpbDs

Meanwhile, I think I'll try out TR's Gramma's church
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
I love Christianity... they have wacky things like this:

Ritualized cannibalism - Communion (Drink my blood, eat my flesh)

and

Zombie Day - Easter (I mean come on, a dood rises from the grave?)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
Ya know, 72hw, most of Jesus' close friends were killed in pretty horrific ways. Don't know if I would undergo something like that to promote a myth. Jess thinkin' out loud here. Lynne

Actually we drink wine or grape juice at communion and Jesus said this is my body....not flesh. :D Peace
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
Jaybro, that is some funny shizzle.
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
Lynne - you are not making a very good case for me to become a friend of Jesus... jess sayin.

;-)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
The communist body count is around 149 million people.

http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/communistbodycount.php

The only “Christian” conflict that makes the Wiki list is the 30 years war with a upper limit of about 11 ½ million. (probably half that) And this was really a straight nation state political conflict over territory and resources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

I’m not going to go thru the exercise of weeding out all the duplicates, eliminating the purely political slaughters and adding up the numbers, but I’d bet you can’t come up with a list that is remotely purely “Christian “ that exceeds 15 million from 800to 1700. Only the French religious wars and the Thirty Years war make the list of major conflicts and they only total 10 million between them. Stalin did better than twice that all by himself. The death toll from the Inquisition was 31,000 by some pretty good official record keeping. Most of the toll from the Crusades were Europeans killed by Arabs in Europe, that was around 2 million.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#30YrW

So, find another myth to flog.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
"most of Jesus' close friends were killed in pretty horrific ways."

So were a lot of David Koresh's close friends... A cult is a cult. What's your point?
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
that is a pretty huge brush a lot of you have. you realize obama is a *gasp* christian? Where's the posse?
the Fet

Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
christmas - winter solstice celebaration, can't stop it, take it over, pretend Jesus's birthday was on it, keep the tree and other pagan traditions, complain that it's being secularized.
flying monkey

Trad climber
mount shasta, california
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
Because there is a propaganda war against it... Simply replace the word religion or Christianity with the word 'democracy' and you'll get a much clearer picture of what's really going on, who's starting the wars, shoving ideals down peoples throats and all the rest. People are so brainwashed, they think religion is bad because it puts rules on their activities yet they are perfectly willing to let their government(without moral guidance) do exactly that.
This country was founded on God given rights, It is the job of our government to protect those rights not regulate us into oblivion.
Get with the times, atheism is the new religion complete with it's dogma known as evolution.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
The Dogma is Statisim not evolution.

They have a hard time with a few founding principles

When in the course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed,
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
Why do you feel compelled to "hate" it then instead of simply ignore it?

What about the concept of natural rights?

Is that a myth also?

No wonder you want everyone to be a slave to your concept of a utopian state.
Gene

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
What is this Christianity stuff anyway? I'd like to hear your views.

Thanks,
gm
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:50pm PT
"There is no proof that any in the bible is the true story of what happened."
Your grammar makes this very difficult to understand, so I have to guess what you are insinuating. The cities and locations (and hills and tombs and confrontation with Roman empire and rivers and lakes and continuity with egyptian history and etc etc etc..) have architectural remains, and always have.

"Its been changed 1000 times to suit the present day circumstances"

I believe you are confused with the book of mormon. The 'bible' was written by people, that actually exhisted, and copied in constantininople (how the hell you spell that) following the fall of the Roman Empire until monks were translating the exact same words when Shakespeare got ahold of it. He re-wrote it in 'common english' (both the original texts of the guttenburg and artifacts containing the original copies hand made are in museums the world over) where it stands today. The king james bible is still available, as is its latin counterparts. The phrases have been changed to fit the modern dialect (no more Thees and Thou's etc) into several variations, depending on the demographic, but the most common is the NIV (new international version). The phrasing is all that is changed, the message is and has always been the same. Whether the translation is across languages or dialects, the same thing is being said as had been said a thousand years ago.


So, in closing, you are just another angry hippy shouting drivel. Hate all you want, but c'mon man, do some research first :D
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
It gave us this concept

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness—-
Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
I don't dislike Christians. I just like it better when they're not around.
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
"Why do you feel compelled to "hate" it then instead of simply ignore it?"

Because there are way too many people who practice Christianity and are impossible to ignore. They constantly try to infuse their beliefs into public policy and politics, and knock on my door trying ram the 'good news' down my throat.

Having said this, one of my very best friends leads a strong Christian life- we have stimulating, intelligent, respectful discussions about the role of spirituality in one's life, and to his great credit, has never, ever evangelized his beliefs towards me or anyone else. Though I would not consider myself a true 'Christian', what I have learned from these discussions are some of the greatest lessons of my life.



72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
TGT - what?

Honestly?

Christianity gave us that verse....

Huh.

EDIT: Sorry, this is my last post on a religious subject here. My thoughts on the matter can be best summed up by heading over to http://richarddawkins.net/ or by reading any number of books including, but not limited to "The end of faith" by Sam Harris or "God is not great" by Christopher Hitchens to name only a couple of fairly recent tomes.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
72 lighten up on the inhalation and read!
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
You got it right the first time TGT.

They can't read for sure.

Same ole sh'it, here.
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
craig, I love arguing with you because you seem to have no regard for digging deeper than a gut feeling. This makes my job in enlightening you that much easier!


"But just look above at all Christianity has done
And it goes on and on"

Christianity, paganism, Muslims, what do you want to call it? Look at all that humanity has done to eachother, with religion or without. It is our nature to destroy eachother and the idiots nature to blame it on someone else. Trust me, there is violence and genocide where the vatican has no influence :D

"And still based on something that doesn't exist"

Compassion and good will are alive and well, despite your every best efforts.

"Or is their something, other than someone had a good feeling, or prayed and something happened"

People who didn't know who we were fixed our water heater when my parents were dirt poor because they heard it was broken and wanted to do a good thing for a neighbor. Every year the youth group at my church raises tens of thousands of dollars for starving children in africa. My college group has sent dozens of students across the world to give special needs to families that are dying from diseases and war. I gave my sister my car when hers was repossessed and she had no way to get to work and support herself and her child because God told me it was the right thing to do, and I got in pretty damn good shape riding my bike to work.

I don't think I need to list examples on how God has made a positive impact on the lives of christians, but there are a few anyway.

People whose way of thinking align with yourself are so fast to judge and hate and point fingers, but have never done anything. I put blood and sweat into my community and into a shitty world that cares nothing about me in the hopes that someones day may be so much better that it is as good as my WORST day. Fact is, conservatives donate four times as much and volunteer twice as much as liberals, has and always will be. You can say christianity is bunk because of intangibles all you want, there is no proof for or against, and its not an argument that will reveal anything.

But tangibles? We got the hippies beat by a mile. Go ahead and do a peaceful protest. We'll be feeding the homeless.

God bless punk!
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
"what I have learned from these discussions are some of the greatest lessons of my life. "

wasn't he 'cramming his beliefs down your throat?"


what a tired argument. This is the reason you hate christians? Because at some point in your life someone told you something you don't agree with? Welcome to the real world little boy, expect more. Imagine the school telling your daughter that she can have abortions without her parents knowing about it. The dreidle spins both ways!
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
t*r -

no disrespect nor yelling intended, I posted the same in another thread...just an observation(and a cry for attention ;D)

I apologize if I've missed your TRs and appreciation thread, it's easy to miss the 'good stuff' sometimes. I do appreciate your presence here, carry on...and...

Cheers!
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
I read your trip reports every time, but don't usually post. I rarely post on trip reports unless its to bump them, just becaues they are fun to read and usually what can you say to a bitchin' story? But trust me, they get read!
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
"wasn't he 'cramming his beliefs down your throat?"

No, he wasn't, GDavis.
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
Yes, apo, that was my point.

Duhrrr.....
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
"Add to that, that Christianity has slaughtered and enslaved more people in history than any other entity.... "

come on people. If you're going to make a statement like that at least make sure it's accurate. Hate Christianity all you like but that statement just isn't true.

Edit: Amen Gdavis!
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
Yeah they don't even have a clue that they are being slaughtered and enslaved right now this very minute as we speak.

And that has nothing to do with Christianity.
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
I don't think my tour guide for the slave market in Zanzibar said anything about Christianity but maybe I missed that part.

Edit: Dr.F have you seen all those people lined up to do good deeds over there in Somalia lately? Man is inherently good isn't he. The need to do good just oozes from our pores.
apogee

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
GDavis: "Imagine the school telling your daughter that she can have abortions without her parents knowing about it."

This statement is a classic example of how Christians believe that morality and values in our society can only be accomplished by the presence of religion and Christianity in our society. Pretty feckin' presumptuous, if you ask me.

Is your religion-blindered mind really so indoctrinated as to believe that morality and social goodness can only be accomplished through your belief system? (Rhetorical question, I know.)
Cracko

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all.


Enough said for me !

Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:34pm PT

Whoever we are
Wherever were from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
Its gonna take a lot more
Than tryin to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it the earth
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near n far
Dumb all over,
Black n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin the bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Dont believe in the book
We got over here

You can't run a race
Without no feet
n pretty soon
There wont be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it wont blow up
n disappear
Itll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)

You can't run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

To arms! to arms!
Hooray! thats great
Two legs aint bad
Unless there's a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
(it gotta be that way!)
But their book says:
Revenge the crusades...
With whips n chains
n hand grenades...
Two arms? two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
There aint no other!
Our God says
Its all okay!
Our God says
This is the way!

It says in the book:
Burn n destroy...
n repent, n redeem
n revenge, n deploy
n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
cause they dont go for whats in the book
n that makes em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice french bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
(cause he can really take care of business!)

And when his humble tv servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
Its okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
cause if we don't do it,
We aint gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book youre using at the
Time...cant use theirs... it dont work
...its all lies...gotta use mine...)
Aint that right?
Thats what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we cant really be dumb
If were just following gods orders
Hey, lets get serious...
God knows what hes doin
He wrote this book here
An the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,
So...
If were dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(an maybe even a little ugly on the side)
Chris2

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
"Everyone," doesn't, hate Christianity.
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
I lied - one more post on the subject.

This video is really eye opening. It asks the question "What if God disappeared" and the resulting hypothesis is rather striking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCuc34hvD4&feature=player_embedded

jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
72hw - just curious. Have you ever watched any of the John Lennox debates?
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
Dr F and the other antichrists

You said it, many times

Now why are you trying to cram it down the theists throats?

Hypocrites .....
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
Dr F -- "We just want you to open your mind to the possibility of nothing,..."

Hahahahaha
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
Re: The Lennox Debates

Yes, indeed I have listened to a few, as I recall with Prof. Dawkins and one set in a more round table format with other leading theists and agnostics/atheists. Very interesting stuff as I recall and Lennox gave a clear voice to the issues in a very noble way. I remain unmoved in my convictions however, and whole heartedly stand behind the notion that faith and science are utterly opposed.
spot

Boulder climber
Atascadero,Ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
This is my kind of church!

THe First Baptist Bar and Grill - song by Tim Wilson

link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YliBqsV3YMc

ps. Did the "forced to go to church" as a kid. Good idea, but sometimes the wrong application. Didn't get the act like an a$$hole 6 days a week and get a go to heaven ticket on sunday at church. It's everyday decency or nothing!
MUR

climber
A little to the left of right
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
Spot > "Did the "forced to go to church" as a kid. Good idea, but sometimes the wrong application. Didn't get the act like an a$$hole 6 days a week and get a go to heaven ticket on sunday at church. It's everyday decency or nothing! "

EXACTLY!

I have no problem with the gist of Christianity, just don't particularly like the Hypocracy of it's followers.
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
72hw - I like the intelligent debate and I enjoy Lennox's disarming style. No need to cram anything down anybody's throat. Discussion of opposing views can often be enlightening and entertaining. No need for aggressive posturing, rhetoric, or anger to be involved.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
Well, y'know, how much can you really say about a trip report anyway? Wow. Cool. Proud. Bet you had an awesome time. Wish we were there. But if you want to know why everyone hates something, well, now you can get a discussion going.
I don't hate Christians much, the ones around today I mean. They're all pretty weak sauce compared to the ones who founded the cult in the first place. A lot of skeletons in the closet, that's for sure. I wish they would open their minds to more of what's real and jettison the bullshit parts of their artificial mythology, get on with their own lives instead of dwelling on an imaginary afterlife and such, but if that's what pushes their buttons, I don't hate them for being true to themselves.

http://io9.com/5209115/science-proves-that-christians-know-god
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
Flip Wilson belonged to the best church,
THE CHURCH OF WHATS HAPPENING NOW !!!!
72hw

Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
Jbar - I agree with you on the debate thing. When conversation devolves into Ad Hominem it ceases to be valid.

My earlier posts were in keeping with the original, playful tone of this thread, and I apologize if I gave any other impression. Especially where it might concern Lennox - one of the few voices I find myself agreeing with on many things even though he represents an opposing view from mine. Hence my compliment to him above.

Most of the debates I have listened to featuring Lennox revolved around the question of whether science and faith are reconcilable you see, so I was merely pointing out he had not changed my mind, but was indeed a very eloquent voice on the subject.

I do believe I made a promise earlier to discontinue posting on this thread - must be my lack of a moral compass that has led me astray...

hehehe.

Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Apr 13, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
It’s not accurate to blame “Christianity” for the Spanish Inquisition or blame “Marxism” for murders committed by psychopaths such as Lenin, Stalin and Beria.

The Spanish Inquisition was started in 1478 by Spanish Monarchs, Ferdinand and Isabella, to replace the medieval inquisition that had been under papal control. It was under direct control of the monarchy. The medieval inquisition, as an ecclesiastical tribunal, had jurisdiction only over baptized Christians, and punishment was usually less harsh than requiring the “guilty” to go on a pilgrimage.

The Spanish Inquisition was motivated by the multi- religious nature of the country after the Moorish (Muslim) conquests and the large population of Jews. Pope Innocent was against Ferdinand and Isabella starting a harsher tribunal under their own authority. Their inquisition resulted in execution of 3,000 to 5,000, mostly Jews and Muslims, and a few Protestants.

Karl Marx would have been mortified by the blood and oppression in the Russian communist movement. Although not a moralist, he proposed the creation of classless, productive and congruous society. He advocated change through organized revolutionary action, but the mass starvation and murder of millions of peasants goes well against the grain of his theory.

It would take bullies and authoritarians, like Lenin, to insist that large-scale killing would be necessary to bring about the communist utopia. Lenin had little mercy for traditionalists or political opponents and that set the stage for Stalin, Beria, etc who would murder, starve and oppress to preserve their own personal power and gratify their own aggressive, anti-social and sexual impulses.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
Dr. F...."I hate it (hate is a really ugly word, are you sure you hate ?) because it is based on a myth and a lie." Do you also hate all the Greek myths and Toddler Nursery Rhymes ? :)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
72hw, I am just on an open forum listening to others, weighing what they say and then speaking what I think, feel and have learned in life. I am not trying to make you a friend of Jesus.
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
Hey 72hw I didn't mean to seem like I was accusing you of anything. I saw your posts about dawkins and was just curious if you had heard of Lennox. I believe in being informed. I often force myself to watch or listen to opposing views if only to say I try to keep an open mind. There is one whom I'm thinking of now I can only get through about 10min of his show before I have to change the channel. But that would be another thread.

"the war in iraq is offically a christain vs muslim war based on our general's opinion"
Then may we also substitute "afghanistan" for Iraq or is that different based on your political views?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
Nefarious, when you simply state a cult is a cult .... well that's not necessarily true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cult.

Lynne is not ignorant or a cultist...:DD



WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
What about that cult "widefetish" their members all dress in clean rugby shirts and climb wide cracks.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Apr 13, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
That cult, Werner, actually makes some sense....smiles and peace tonight. Thank God for the outdoors...which is where I'm going...to look at the stars. Makes alot more sense than most stuff. Lynne
Rankin

climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:23am PT
My grandmother was a very religious Christian. She taught Sunday school for years, was a chuch elder, and did scores of volunteer charity work. Her heart was in the right place, and I'm still amazed at her selflessness. Honestly, I think she was not a very happy person. I'm sure she carried a lot of shame and guilt around with her, and her devotion to her church and Bible was the center of her life. I wish she could have been happier, but I'm glad she had Christianity, because she got something out of it. What she got wasn't happiness, but more like a sense of purpose. Better than nothing I guess.
I don't hate Christianity, but am angered that the practice of religion is too often perverted for power, and too many self-professed Christians are so un-Christlike. My grandmother was, what I consider to be, a true practicing Christian. She never raised her voice, and always acted through love and devotion...to people. Too many 'Christians' lose sight of the role of love in Christianity...a love of all people. "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you." (Book of Matthew, I believe).
Too many Christians behave as if they are in some exclusive club, and are therefore entitled to hate, violence and self-righteousness. They take their own forgiveness for granted, but are stingy giving it to others. They don't know humility, but somehow by bowing their heads on Sunday, they feel entitled to disrespect and hate other people. "Why do you see the speck in your neighbour’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:3)
Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:27am PT
The word “cult” means nothing unless it means something. Ask a hundred people and you get a hundred different and far ranging answers. Look in several dictionaries and you find broad and varying definitions. Just about any group of people, religious, political, academic etc. fit under one or more definitions of cult.

Yet the word “cult” is bandied about regularly, as if it means something. Whatever your definition, it has strong current connotation.

What do you think of when you hear the word “cult”? Anti-social, insular societies? Brainwashing? Compliant and unthinking sycophants? Suicide pacts?

The reason so many people want to use the word is because you can attach anything to it you want. Go ahead and tailor your own definition…..imply that someone is a mindless psychopath.

As such, “cult” is a slur.
Rankin

climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:30am PT
I agree that 'cult' has negative connotations, but for some, isn't that the point of using the word?
The Cult, however, is a kick ass band.
Mar'

Trad climber
Tustin
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:31am PT
They're the only ones who's skeletons are in our own closets. Kinda sounds like my rack! rattle-rattle ;)
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:40am PT
If t*r's pastor throws in some chocolate bunnies, it's a deal.

Perhaps we should distinguish between christianity, to the extent that it is known, and Paulism. It's fairly clear that there was a real person named Yeshua/Joshua, aka Jesus. He was a Jewish ascetic and rabbi = teacher. Little else is truly known about him. The various sacred writings that have survived are somewhat disputed, and the earliest say much less about Yeshua and his teachings than the later ones. Certainly the bible is not a reliable source.

Much of what is now called christianity is a consolidation developed by Saul or Tarsus, after his conversion. Decades later. He made key decisions about doctrine, writings, branding, marketing, and organization, and some call his religion Paulism, not christianity.

Whether Yeshua intended to start a religion at all, or would have anything to do with what is now called christianity, is a rather large question. The dogmas, practices, and beliefs that have been accreted onto his are quite astonishing.
apogee

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:52am PT
MH:
Abomination!
Heretic!
66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666!

How DARE you question the sheeple-mindedness of millenia of lemmings that would follow a prophet or a psycho (hard to tell the difference, apparently) gilded in polyester on a local cable channel over the cliff and into oblivion (as long as they have a valid credit card or their check clears).

Halleleujah! (sp?)

Christians, unite! You are being victimized, again! Rise and begin another bloody war that will exterminate the non-believers and bolster the bank accounts of the church (that is, until another choirboy scandal erupts, and the lawsuits take their toll).
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:54am PT
I just want my chocobunny.
jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
Apr 14, 2009 - 01:00am PT
"Too many _ behave as if they are in some exclusive club, and are therefore entitled to hate, violence and self-righteousness."

Feel free to insert Christian, Muslim, Athiest, Liberal, Supertopo climber, etc
GDavis

Trad climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 01:11am PT
"I don't hate Christianity, but am angered that the practice of religion is too often perverted for power, and too many self-professed Christians are so un-Christlike"


Well, considering he was a perfect being, I guess we can't really be held accountable for being his spittin' image. I hear this complaint a lot, and hardly know what to tell ya - christians are people too!


as far as the warblers article... i think people hated christianity long before Gee Dubya was around. The whole "war on iraq is a new crusades" is a romantic, if stupidly allegorical, argument. Drawing conclusions this way is a haphazard way of thinking - two different things are not the same. If anyone seriously believes some higher power told the goverment to invade and cleanse the lands of.... well,... you may not be ready to step outside into the real world :D
Bad Climber

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 01:35am PT
Perfect being? Hogwash. No such thing or person--except my wonderful dog, and even he ain't perfect. Perfect is a fairy tale, although my dog does have a hairy tail. Plato and assorted sordid Greeks had a lot to do with the shape of Christianity, one aspect being the debased nature of nature and the existence of divine "perfection" beyond--somewhere. Platonic "forms" anyone?

You want perfection? I'll give you freakin' perfection! That last icy cold lager I chugged was PERFECT! I've done some damn near perfect climbs in my time. The closest? Hmmmm.... Now there's a tough question. Screw this God/dog dichotomy--although I do not wish to denigrate ANYTHING doggy style, if you get my drift. Deciding which is the perfect climb? What genre?

Okay, here is one, of many! The North Face of Mt. Fay in the Canadian Rockies. I did the route on the far left side, just to the left of the ice bulge, which, alas, no longer exists. Some other old farts here will know what I'm talking about.

That climbs was the BEST alpine ice climb I've ever done, and I came as close to God as this atheist will ever get. We pulled over the 'schrund and THWACK! Uber plastic ice the whole friggin' way, every pick placement a potential belay. Damn it all to hell, that was a GREAT! day.

Sorry about drifting an OT thread back ON T!

BAD
WBraun

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 02:19am PT
"No such thing or person--except my wonderful dog.."

God spelled backwards is dog.

In this age of Kali people now worship their dog .....
pip the dog

Mountain climber
planet dogboy
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:50am PT
i don't hate christians. i do much dislike and go to great lengths to avoid evangelicals. there is a difference, no?

faith is at root a guess. albeit the most profound guess for any creature caught in the hall of mirrors of selfconsciousness. to my eye what more than anything makes us human.

but it is very cheesy to try to ram your best guess down someone else's throat. re: christianity, i blame this mostly on Paul - an angry, punishment, my way or the highway kinda guy. how did Paul end up with more pages in the NT than anyone? me, i tore all of Paul's schtick out of my Gideon's long ago.

mocking evangelicals is just another form of evangelicalism. stop. meditate on your own best guess and devote your energy to living accordingly.

or so says your small dog ('llams god') who finds the mean Paul-like stuff in this thread tedious and stupid. a polite and thoughtful conversation on the matter might well be interesting. i myself am an atheisist -- though forever re-asking the question and re-guessing my best answer (the hall of mirrors). and hence always open to polite and genuine thoughts on the matter. but angry evangelicals vs angry evangelical anti-evangelicals... blah.


canis fidelis est,

^,,^
~~~~~
"Jesus wept." [John 11:35] _ why?
AllieKat

Social climber
Kirkland, WA
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:57am PT
Seriously? hahahaha!

"Its been changed 1000 times to suit the present day circumstances"

"I believe you are confused with the book of mormon. The 'bible' was written by people, that actually exhisted, and copied in constantininople (how the hell you spell that) following the fall of the Roman Empire until monks were translating the exact same words when Shakespeare got ahold of it. He re-wrote it in 'common english' (both the original texts of the guttenburg and artifacts containing the original copies hand made are in museums the world over) where it stands today. The king james bible is still available, as is its latin counterparts. The phrases have been changed to fit the modern dialect (no more Thees and Thou's etc) into several variations, depending on the demographic, but the most common is the NIV (new international version). The phrasing is all that is changed, the message is and has always been the same. Whether the translation is across languages or dialects, the same thing is being said as had been said a thousand years ago."

Absolutely! Clearly is a low risk of anything being changed over these thousands of years with all of these "minor" translations with only the "phrasing, variations based on demographics, languages, dialects", etc... I wouldn't question that at all.....I couldn't help but notice how quick you threw the Mormon's "book" under the bus without hesitation. Very Christian move...

hahahaha! trolling or not, that is funny! Fiction novels are my fave....Do the same people that authenticate baseball cards do the same with religious artifacts? In the eyes of the beholder...that sorta comes to mind.

Gotta go talk to my coffee cup now...and relieve myself of all responsibility for my actions...mind, body, and soul.

To each his own... : )

AllieKat
Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Apr 14, 2009 - 04:49am PT
"……until monks were translating the exact same words when Shakespeare got ahold of it. He re-wrote it in 'common english' (both the original texts of the guttenburg and artifacts containing the original copies hand made are in museums the world over) where it stands today."


There is no tangible evidence that Shakespeare was on the committee that translated the King James Bible or that he rewrote any of its passages. (The names of the fifty-four translators are known--his name is missing)



“I couldn't help but notice how quick you threw the Mormon's "book" under the bus without hesitation. Very Christian move...”

Threw it under the bus, did he? Reading arrogant and aggressive action into someone else's post and describing it as a "very Christian move" is...........hardly Christian.

For the record, 99.9% of the changes in the Book of Mormon were punctuation, spelling and grammatical errors, not linguistic content or meaning.
S.Powers

Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
I am writing to let you know that I have a concern regarding Christianity's disaffected cock-and-bull stories. Please note that many of the conclusions I'm about to draw are based on cogent and virtually incontrovertible evidence provided by a set of people who have suffered immensely on account of Christianity. From a purely technical point of view, if Christianity were to convict me without trial, jury, or reading one complete paragraph of this letter, social upheaval and violence would follow. It is therefore clear that if it weren't for cold-blooded, hidebound boneheads, Christianity would have no friends. After watching Christianity's secret police cripple Christianity's enemies politically, economically, socially, morally, and psychologically, one might conclude that Christianity et al. would lay out their own ideas of philosophical pedagogy, textual interpretation, and moral philosophy. Surprisingly, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, Christianity and I disagree about our civic duties. I warrant that we must do our utmost to launch an all-out ideological attack against the forces of sadism and encourage others to do the same. Christianity, on the other hand, believes that it is entitled to mold the mind of virtually every citizen—young or old, rich or poor, simple or sophisticated.

No amount of opinion or innuendo nor any string of unrelated flimflams can change the fact that Christianity lectures us about larrikinism so often that it may soon become a major source of hearing loss. How much more illumination does that fact need before Christianity can grasp it? Assuming the answer is "a substantial amount", let me point out that most of you reading this letter have your hearts in the right place. Now follow your hearts with actions.

Doesn't Christianity ever get tired of calling everyone a prodigal slubberdegullion? Let me try to put this in perspective: We must soon make one of the most momentous decisions in history. We must decide whether to let Christianity reduce our modern, civilized, industrialized society to a state of mindless, primitive barbarism or, alternatively, whether we should make a genuine contribution to human society. Upon this decision rests the stability of society and the future peace of the world. My view on this decision is that Christianity's suggestions should be labeled like a pack of cigarettes. I'm thinking of something along the lines of, "Warning: It has been determined that Christianity's monographs are intended to defend expansionism, ethnocentrism, and notions of racial superiority."

Never have I seen such a gross error in judgment as Christianity's decision to annihilate a person's personality, individuality, will, and character. According to the laws of probability, Christianity is inherently yellow-bellied, unctuous, and nasty. Oh, and it also has a shrewish mode of existence. Incidentally, given the amount of misinformation that Christianity is circulating, I must point out that its values are not an abstract problem. They have very concrete, immediate, and unpleasant consequences. For instance, I have some of its writings in front of me right now. In one of them, Christianity maintains that its blessing is the equivalent of a papal imprimatur. If you don't find that shocking then consider that by brainwashing its understrappers with Chekism, Christianity makes them easy to lead, easy to program, and easy to enslave.

In light of what I just stated, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that no matter what else we do, our first move must be to educate everyone about how Christianity's collaborators can read some crock of effete, predatory drivel it once wrote and believe that they've read something really profound. That's the first step: education. Education alone is not enough, of course. We must also catalogue its swindles and perversions.

Christianity's thesis is that might makes right. That's absolutely wishy-washy, you say? Good; that means you're finally catching on. The next step is to observe that there is only one way to stop Christianity from causing riots in the streets. We must make out of fools, wise people; out of fanatics, men of sense; out of idlers, workers; out of the most ill-natured loudmouths you'll ever see, people who are willing to examine the warp and woof of Christianity's commentaries. Then together we can force it into deserved bankruptcy. Together we can show the world that I want to live my life as I see fit. I can't do that while Christianity still has the ability to dominate or intimidate others.

Many of the people I've talked to have said that Christianity and its cringers should all be put up against a wall and given traitors' justice. Without commenting on that specifically I'd merely like to point out that an organization that wants to get ahead should try to understand the long-range consequences of its actions. Christianity has never had that faculty. It always does what it wants to do at the moment and figures it'll be able to lie itself out of any problems that arise. One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is neopaganism. That should serve as the final, ultimate, irrefutable proof that I myself recommend paying close attention to the praxeological method developed by the economist Ludwig von Mises and using it as a technique to lift the fog from Christianity's thinking. The praxeological method is useful in this context because it employs praxeology, the general science of human action, to explain why Christianity wants us to think of it as a do-gooder. Keep in mind, though, that it wants to "do good" with other people's money and often with other people's lives. If Christianity really wanted to be a do-gooder, it could start by admitting that it exhibits an air of superiority. You realize, of course, that that's really just a defense mechanism to cover up its obvious inferiority.

Christianity is thoroughly gung-ho about charlatanism because it lacks more pressing soapbox issues. So maybe Christianity is fluent in the unconscionable patois of parasitism. Big deal. What's more important is that every time Christianity tells its attendants that heartless malefactors are easily housebroken, their eyes roll into the backs of their heads as they become mindless receptacles of unsubstantiated information, which they accept without question. Christianity claims to have data supporting its assertion that "the norm" shouldn't have to worry about how the exceptions feel. Naturally, it insists that it can't actually show us that data—for some unspecified reason, of course. My guess is that it's hiding something. Maybe it's hiding the fact that it is the type of organization that turns up its nose at people like you and me. I guess that's because we haven't the faintest notion about the things that really matter such as why it would be good for Christianity to replace our natural soul with an artificial one.

If you ever ask Christianity to do something, you can bet that your request will get lost in the shuffle, unaddressed, ignored, and rebuffed. Christianity's ideas are geared toward the continuation of social stratification under the rubric of "tradition". Funny, that was the same term that its slaves once used to discredit legitimate voices in the classism debate. Posterity will have little occasion to glorify Christianity's "heroic" existence in a new epic, but I guess nobody ever explained that to Christianity's patsies. I want to give people more information about Christianity, help them digest and assimilate and understand that information, and help them draw responsible conclusions from it. Here's one conclusion I decidedly hope people draw: Christianity spews out its vituperative slander from a safe, no-risk forum. But it goes further than that; on the issue of obstructionism, Christianity is wrong again. Sure, it and its yes-men are blossoms on the upas tree of absolutism. But Christianity says it's going to devalue me as a person sooner than you think. Good old Christianity. It just loves to open its mouth and let all kinds of things come out without listening to how malodorous they sound.

Christianity seems to have recently added the word "counterrevolutionist" to its otherwise simplistic vocabulary. I suppose it intends to use big words like that to obscure the fact that my current plan is to examine the social and cultural conditions that lead it to treat anyone who doesn't agree with it to a torrent of vitriol and vilification. Yes, Christianity will draw upon the most powerful fires of Hell to tear that plan asunder, but its homilies are a mere cavil, a mere scarecrow, one of the last shifts of a desperate and dying cause. Christianity shouldn't distract attention from more important issues. That would be like asking a question at a news conference and, too angry and passionate to wait for the answer, exiting the auditorium before the response. Both of those actions cause this country to flounder on the shoals of self-interest, corruption, and chaos. That's the end of this letter. If I was unable to convince you that the same pattern of guilt-by-association practiced by Christianity's henchmen can be found in Christianity's policies, then you should definitely consider contacting me with your supporting or refuting evidence, opinions, personal stories, etc., so that I can make a better argument in my next letter.
S.Powers

Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
There are a number of frightening facts about Mr. Jeebus H Christ that I absolutely must make public. But before I do I need to go into a fair about of detail explaining how Jeebus approximates a viperine wantwit as far as practical action is concerned but differs in psychology, ideology and motivation. Hang in there; this explanation won't take long. The following text regards my complaints of recent days against Jeebus and his subtle but hostile attempts to shift our society from a culture of conscience to a culture of consensus. What kind of loser wants to ascribe opinions to me that I don't even hold? A loser like Jeebus.

Jeebus is an inspiration to disrespectful enemies of the people everywhere. They panegyrize his crusade to perpetuate harmful stereotypes and, more importantly, they don't realize that Jeebus's cause is not glorious. It is not wonderful. It is not good.

What Jeebus is incapable of seeing is that he has the nerve to call those of us who attack his malice and hypocrisy "conspiracy theorists". No, we're "conspiracy revealers" because we reveal that Jeebus is known for walking into crowded rooms and telling everyone there that he values our perspectives. Try, if you can, to concoct a statement better calculated to show how twisted Jeebus is. You can't do it. Not only that, but one of his thralls keeps throwing "scientific" studies at me, claiming they prove that our unalienable rights are merely privileges that Jeebus can dole out or retract. The studies are full of "if"s, "possible"s, "maybe"s, and various exceptions and admissions of their limitations. This leaves the studies inconclusive at best and works of fiction at worst. The only thing these studies can possibly prove is that you may be wondering why homophobic, intrusive asinine-types latch onto Jeebus's obiter dicta. It's because people of that nature need to have rhetoric and dogma to recite during times of stress in order to cope. That's also why Jeebus refers to a variety of things using the word "consubstantiationist". Translating this bit of jargon into English isn't easy. Basically, he's saying that the rules don't apply to him, which we all know is patently absurd. At any rate, if he honestly believes that some of my points are not valid, I would love to get some specific feedback from him.

Sure, we could just sit back and let Jeebus establish tacit boundaries and ground rules for the permissible spectrum of opinion, but that prospect really grates on people who have any kind of common sense. I shall spare no effort to reinforce what is best in people. Although others may disagree with that claim, few would dispute that I didn't want to talk about this. I really didn't. But I myself frequently wish to tell him that we must respect each other and learn to live together in peace. But being a generally genteel person, however, I always bite my tongue.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we lived in a world without chauvinistic reprobates? It's not the bogeyman that our children need to worry about. It's Jeebus. Not only is Jeebus more animalism-prone and more peremptory than any envisaged bogeyman or bugbear, but I have always been an independent thinker. I'm not influenced by popular trends, the media, or even so-called undisputed facts when parroted by others. Maybe that streak of independence is what first enabled me to see that there is something grievously wrong with those impertinent, gutless slaves to fashion who make today's oppressiveness look like grade-school work compared to what Jeebus has planned for the future. Shame on the lot of them!

Jeebus's exegeses are becoming increasingly repugnant. They have already begun to grant a free ride to the undeserving. Now fast-forward a few years to a time in which they have enabled Jeebus to destroy our sense of safety in the places we ordinarily imagine we can flee to. If you don't want such a time to come then help me bring Jeebus down a peg. Help me maximize our individual potential for effectiveness and success in combatting Jeebus.

No one has a higher opinion of Jeebus than I, and I think Jeebus's an uncouth, nettlesome spieler. Are you prepared to discuss this, Jeebus? It is pointless to fret about the damage already caused by his tasteless musings. The past cannot be changed. We must cope with the present if we hope to affect our future and perform noble deeds.

Even though Jeebus presents a public face that avoids overt solecism, if he had his way, schools would teach students that it is better that a hundred thousand people should perish than that Jeebus should be even slightly inconvenienced. This is not education but indoctrination. It prevents students from learning about how I have to laugh when Jeebus says that he can absorb mana by devouring his nemeses' brains. Where in the world did he get that idea? Not only does that idea contain absolutely no substance whatsoever but whenever anyone states the obvious—that most of us are now painfully aware of his subhuman adages—discussion naturally progresses towards the question, "Why can't he live among us in peace?" The answer has two parts to it. The first part regards the manner in which we are now stuck with a neo-frightful ruffianism bearing a human face—that of Jeebus H Christ. The second part of the answer is focused on the the way that much of our nation's history stands as shameful testament to the danger inherent in allowing Jeebus to galvanize a self-aggrandizing hysteria, a large-scale version of the yawping mentality that can fleece us. So what's the connection between that and his doctrines? The connection is that Jeebus's collaborators actually believe the bunkum they're always mouthing. That's because these types of rancorous muttonheads are idealistic, have no sense of history or human nature, and they think that what they're doing will somehow improve the world faster than you can say "cinephotomicrography". In reality, of course, there is no such thing as evil in the abstract. It exists only in the evil deeds of evil people like Jeebus.

I recently overheard a couple of longiloquent weasels say that truth is merely a social construct. Here, again, we encounter the blurred thinking that is characteristic of this Jeebus-induced era of slogans and propaganda. For a variety of reasons, some strategic, some ideological, some attitudinal, and all of them wrong, censorious misfits defy the law of the land. No one can claim to know the specific source of his nostrums, but he either is or elects to be ignorant of scientific principles and methods. Jeebus even intentionally misuses scientific terminology to incite young people to copulate early, often, and indiscriminately. Who is he to say that a totalitarian dictatorship is the best form of government we could possibly have?

Jeebus's assertions are as appealing as braces, acne, and a wooden leg at the senior prom. Now that's a strong conclusion to draw just from the evidence I've presented in this letter so let me corroborate it by saying that I welcome Jeebus's comments. However, Jeebus needs to realize that he likes to subvert our country's legal system. Such activity can flourish only in the dark, however. If you drag it into the open, Jeebus and his bootlickers will run for cover, like cockroaches in a dirty kitchen when the light is turned on suddenly during the night. That's why we must shed a little light on some of the ignorant prejudices that reside within Jeebus's pea-sized brain. To summarize my views: Mr. Jeebus H Christ tries to make his circulars more palatable by wrapping them in rhetoric about the need to protect the interests of the disadvantaged and the downtrodden.
S.Powers

Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
I am writing this letter because I recently heard some troubling news. Apparently, a large number of people actually believe Mr. GDavis's claim that he has a duty to conceal the facts and lie to the rest of us, under oath if necessary, perjuring himself to help disseminate the True Faith of factionalism. What follows is a call to action for those of us who care—a large enough number to convince cynical punks to stop supporting GDavis and tolerating his manuscripts. I laughed so hard I almost cried when he stated publicly that his personal attacks are all sweetness and light. You just can't make this stuff up—at least, not without noticing that GDavis's understrappers feel that "uneducated insurrectionists aren't ever stuck-up." First off, that's a lousy sentence. If they had written instead that it is cowardice on GDavis's part to suborn rabid egotists to give lunatics control of the asylum then that quote would have had more validity. As it stands, he drops the names of famous people whenever possible. That makes GDavis sound smarter than he really is and obscures the fact that he claims that his intimations enhance performance standards, productivity, and competitiveness. Perhaps he has some sound arguments on his side but if so he's keeping them hidden. I'd say it's far more likely that GDavis operates on an international scale to promote the lie of antagonism. It's only fitting, therefore, that we, too, work on an international scale, but to shatter the adage that GDavis is entitled to make my worst nightmares come true.

To most people, the list of GDavis's superstitious views reads like a comic strip but his jibes are actually taken seriously by his followers. There is a simple answer to the question of what to do about GDavis's sophistries. The difficult part is in implementing the answer. The answer is that we must shine a light on GDavis's efforts to impose a narrow theological agenda on secular society.

Somebody has to condemn—without hesitation, without remorse—all those who teach stultiloquent concepts to children. That somebody can be you. In any case, GDavis should learn to appreciate what he has instead of feeling so oppressed because he can't do everything he wants, every time he wants to. To some extent, his bootlickers have been staggering around like punch-drunk fighters hit too many times—stunned, confused, betrayed, and trying desperately to rationalize his ultra-ostentatious, disorderly paroxysms. It is unquestionably not a pretty sight.

We don't need to demonize GDavis; he is already a demon, and furthermore, he hates people who have huge supplies of the things he lacks. What GDavis lacks the most is common sense, which underlies my point that he has a knack for convincing postmodernist, execrable election-year also-rans that he can ignore rules, laws, and protocol without repercussion. That's called marketing. The underlying trick is to use sesquipedalian terms like "theoanthropomorphism" and "epididymodeferential" to keep his sales pitch from sounding illogical. That's why you really have to look hard to see that it's our responsibility to bring important information about GDavis's neurotic lamentations into the limelight. That's the first step in trying to solve the problems of demagogism, irreligionism, economic inequality, and lack of equal opportunity, and it's the only way to take stock of what we know, identify areas for further research, and provide a useful starting point for debate on his fickle, self-satisfied quips.

GDavis wants nothing less than to shrink the so-called marketplace of ideas down to convenience-store size. His foot soldiers then wonder, "What's wrong with that?" Well, there's not much to be done with randy lowbrows who can't figure out what's wrong with that, but the rest of us can plainly see that GDavis may be reasonably cunning with words. However, he is thoroughly homophobic with everything else.

I am making a pretty serious accusation here. I am accusing GDavis of planning to reduce us to acute penury. And I don't want anyone to think that I am basing my accusation only on the fact that one could truthfully say that he finds it easier to discuss other people's problems than his own. But saying that would miss the real point, which is that he must have recently made a huge withdrawal from the First National Bank of Lies. How else could GDavis manage to tell us that we should derive moral guidance from his glitzy, multi-culti, hip-hop, consumption-oriented maneuvers? I may be beating a dead horse here, but I do want to point out that we must fight GDavis hammer and tong. Our children depend on that.

That's a very important point; I will stop at nothing to open minds instead of closing them. My resolve cannot fully be articulated but it is unyielding. As evidence, consider that if my memory serves me correctly, I've heard GDavis say that my bitterness at him is merely the latent projection of libidinal energy stemming from self-induced anguish. Was that just a slip of the lip, or is GDavis secretly trying to compromise the free and open nature of public discourse? We already have our answer; as a respected journalist put it, "It is my intent to compile readers' remarks and suggestions and use them to fight scurrility and slander". She probably could have added that GDavis's primary goal is to acquire power and use it to indoctrinate exploitative slanderers. All of his other objectives are secondary to this one supreme purpose. That's why you must always remember that GDavis claims that skin color means more than skill and gender is more impressive than genius. I profess that the absurdities within that claim speak for themselves although I should add that my goal is to honor our nation's glorious mosaic of cultures and ethnicities. I will not stint in my labor in this direction. When I have succeeded, the whole world will know that GDavis maintains that he has the trappings of deity. Perhaps it would be best for him to awaken from his delusional, narcoleptic fantasyland and observe that if he thinks that obscurity, evasiveness, incomprehensibility, indirectness, and ambiguity are marks of depth and brilliance then maybe he should lay off the wacky tobacky.

Everything GDavis writes is larded with indiscriminate name dropping, the quality and quantity of which would embarrass the most shameless mover and shaker at your average literary cocktail party. No wonder that there are some basic biological realities of the world in which we live. These realities are doubtless regrettable, but they are unalterable. If GDavis finds them intolerable and unthinkable, the only thing that I can suggest is that he try to flag down a flying saucer and take passage for some other solar system, possibly one in which the residents are oblivious to the fact that I have some of GDavis's writings in front of me right now. In one of them, GDavis maintains that it is self-righteous to question his plans for the future. If you don't find that shocking then consider that some day, in the far, far future, GDavis will realize that that statement can be most easily defended, since it is not quantitative, but qualitative. This realization will sink in slowly but surely and will be accompanied by a comprehension of how all the deals GDavis makes are strictly one-way. GDavis gets all the rights, and the other party gets all the obligations.

So who's crazy? I, or all the delusional used-car salesmen who contend that GDavis can absorb mana by devouring his nemeses' brains? Before you answer, let me point out that this is not the place to develop that subject. It demands many pages of analysis, which I can't spare in this letter. Instead, I'll just state the key point, which is that we must soon make one of the most momentous decisions in history. We must decide whether to let GDavis convince others that blasphemous nudniks are the "chosen people" of scriptural prophecy or, alternatively, whether we should raise the quality of debate on issues surrounding his disingenuous canards. Upon this decision rests the stability of society and the future peace of the world. My view on this decision is that GDavis wants to prohibit any discussion of her attempts to treat traditional values as if they were unambitious crimes. While it is clear why he wants that to be a taboo subject, it's easy to tell if GDavis's lying. If his lips are moving, he's lying.

By this, I mean that GDavis had previously claimed that he had no intention to shame my name. Of course, shortly thereafter, that's exactly what he did. Next, he denied that he would paint people of different races and cultures as xenophobic alien forces undermining the coherent national will. We all know what happened then. Now, GDavis would have us believe he'd never ever introduce changes without testing them first. Will he? Go figure. My view is that GDavis's behind much of the sociopolitical indoctrination that goes on in many of our classrooms. If that fact hurts, get over it; it's called reality. And for another dose of reality, consider that GDavis's obloquies are indisputably uncalled for, and everyone with half a brain understands that. I would like to go on, but I do have to keep this letter short. So I'll wrap it up by saying that Mr. GDavis will go to almost any extreme to prevent my message of truth from getting out.
Binks

Social climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
Christians are distrusted because Christians don't do what Jesus says, they do what their church says -not the same thing at all. And they enter politics and give allegiance to scumbags just because they claim also to be Christians.
apogee

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
S Powers, knock that sh*t off! It's getting light now up there in AK- go outside and play!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
Amen, S. Powers!
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
It appears that S. Powers may have discovered a text-generation program, a la Doug Buchanan. Edit: Or perhaps he's quoting from someone.
S.Powers

Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
Apogee, yes sir!

I just got back from a kayak trip, its a beautiful day!
Binks

Social climber
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
Concerning Jesus...

"He was a troublemaker, still if we had known he was the son of god we wouldn't have killed him"

LOL

Saltydog

climber
NC
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
I just like the big bowl of free money that they always pass around during church service. christians rule!!
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
OOoooohhhh ooohhhhhh.... I wanna play too!

I don't hate Christianity, I don't hate catholicism, I don't hate jewism, I don't hate muslimism, I don't hate any of the 'isms.

I don't hate any of it.

Unlike 99% of the population, I grew up and realized that fairy tales aren't true.

By the way, just in case some of you haven't figured it out yet, Santa's not real either...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
It appears that S. Powers may have discovered a text-generation program, a la Doug Buchanan. Edit: Or perhaps he's quoting from someone.

Either way a pointless, boring rant generated by an "artificial" intelligence.
Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
christmas - jesus is born, we get presents

easter - jesus dies, we get candy

what's the problem?

+

don't waste time answering my rhetorical question. in case you guys didn't notice, i'm being facetious :P




=



Troll




Plain and simple





Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
This is a question that should be posted on an astronomer's forum.

The church has stopped burning astronomers, haven't they?
MoshuaJOrgan

Boulder climber
Oklahoma City, OK
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:13am PT
A lot of ignorance in the comments. If you're going to single out Christianity for having the highest deathtoll, what you're really saying is catholicism. So there's that. Second off it is appalling that you would so easily without even consideration say that it would be a close race between how many people Catholicism has killed, and how many Communism has killed. That number is not even close, it's such an ignorant american view to not know anything of the horrors of Stalin's reign of terror. Stalin ruled Russia for 30 years and in that time it is estimated that he was directly responsible for 34 million deaths in russia. That is over a million a year. now, it is also estimated that 15 million of those deaths were Christians. Christians were captured and tortured, in hopes that they would give up their fellow christians. Read the book "Tortured for Christ" By Richard Wurmbrand.. In it are chilling personal accounts from Wurmbrand about being tortured by the Communist. For one Christian girl they waited until her wedding day to arrest her and then took her and the guards had their way with her. I am not defending the actions of the Catholic Church, and I will not defend the evil and corruption that has plagued certain protestant churches. But your statement of Christianity starting all wars and being responsible for the most deaths is preposterous and just shows how biased you are against Christianity. And lets not forget Hitler, and the Chinese rule that is still in charge today, as well as North Korea. Why does everybody hate Christians. Well the only answer I can give is that Jesus says in John 14 that since the world hated him, it will also hate his disciples.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:37am PT
native population of the americas prior to cathaholism?
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:15am PT
druid persecution by the romans in the british isles and western europe?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:18am PT
Ekat...here's a short prayer for you..EEEE.YI yi i yi yi yi yi yi yi yi...RJ
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 11, 2013 - 03:58pm PT

Who cares?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Why was this thread resurrected?

You see what I did there?

Edit; Damn, I was beaten to the punch line. Oh well.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
why does everyone hate christianity so much?

after the many years of torment i have every right to effing hate em!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
"Why does everyone hate christianity so much?

 Because its a sham…?


It leads people to believe that there is something outside themselves that controls their lives instead of letting them know that they have a vested interest in creating their own lives and fates.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:52pm PT



; 0

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Hate the Christianity but love the Christian. That's how they do it, right?
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 11, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Why does everyone hate Christianity so much?



Because of generalization. Meeting one and assuming all others are the same.

So you meet a bad one and there goes the whole tribe.

Moral: Differentiate




Also - Never believe what you read about groups in the media. They only make money if the news is bad, alarming or a freak show. Truth is optional.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Yes it's a generalization, but you meet a lot of people who label themselves that way, that um aren't really the kind of people you want to deal with in a limited mammalian lifespan let alone, even worse, an afterlife!

Much of the concept kicks ass however.

Have you ever met someone who labels themselves "Christian" who isn't needy and manipulative?
I have, and hats off to those exceptions!!
But in general, the label of "Christian" means they have a lot farther route to go to prove themselves than, those that say something more open minded like, say, "undecided"
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
The 'born again' Christians I know tend to be very pushy about their beliefs.

I don't like preachy, pushy people.

That said, my old boss in Truckee is a Christian and I've spent a few Sunday mornings at church with him, his daughter, and wife. It was fun. Everyone was super nice, but I got the feeling that they were just trying to indoctrinate me into their club.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
Well Brandon if the daughter is hot it may be worth putting up with the dogma. This is a joke.[/burninginhellchashingdaughters]
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
His daughter was six at the time, I'm not a pedophile.

I was just good friends with the family.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I've been told by an informed Orange County minister that it's because we are all jealous of the Popes robe.

& I ( you ) have to admit that it is a mighty fine robe.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I like the Popes hat.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
All in all my sisters are full on christian conservatives and while we have different opinions on politics our thoughts on environmentalism, organic food, and climate change are spot on.

Weird stuff to be so dissimilar on politics and religion yet so inline with everything else, family is strange that way.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
Ani't that the truth.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 11, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
I think everyone hates christianity because some christians demand constant recognition and affirmation that they are beter than other christians and certainly more so than the non-believers..I think of the Pharasees...It's like a competition for some with their ego being the ultimate motivation rather than just being nice to other humans...A friend hit the nail on the head when he said that some of the christians he knows are pretty uptight and mean spirited...Christianity is a good thing but some of it's practioners aren't..
jstan

climber
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Dingus suggested christians were doing nothing objectionable. The ACLU has an answer better than the one I gave.

"We wish to be allowed to make our own moral judgments."

Certain organizations wish to impose new restrictions upon us based upon their moral judgments.

This is a restriction of the rights of other citizens.

In many cases those asking for this increase in the powers given to government are, at the same time, complaining that government should be gotten out of our lives.

A shortfall in mental capability appears to be at work.

In old people this is called "diminished capacity".
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
Since christians believe tales without evidence, they are not critical thinkers,

I guess you'd lump Augustine, Galileo, (read his letters to his daughter some time)Rene Descartes, Newton, Webster, and on infinitum into that pot.


Western civilization and it's intellectual processes is the result of Christianity, no trivializing or escaping that.

Those that do so are the intellectuality dishonest equivalent of the creationist that insists that we are not really also primates.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
because of statements like this....

Western civilization and it's intellectual processes is the result of Christianity, no trivializing or escaping that.


edit: suppose it depends on your definition of 'civilization.'
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
Didn't Muslims pioneer mathematics BITD?

Answer; Yes.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
Nope, appropriated most of the concepts from the Greeks,

they did invent Al-gebra.

What contributions have they made in the last 600 years or so?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
Kindness, culture, to name two things.

Radicals exist in all societies, we shouldn't judge people on their lowest common denominator.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
It comes down to culture, (race has nothing to do with it)

Culture is driven by religion.

One tradition (Judeo, Christian)has produced more equality, productivity, higher standards of living and greater individual freedom than any other.

Results matter.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
The Christian culture is a violent one.

Who are we to judge?

Myself? I'm agnostic. I try to see the world through an impartial lens.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
they did invent Al-gebra

 Along with what in the west is called the Western Aribic (also Eastern Aribic) numerical systems…

The Hookah or Water Pipe…

The Guitar….

Coffee….

Many of today's common acids…

Here, don't believe me…. Watch Neil DeGrasse Tyson talk about the achievements of the Arib

[Click to View YouTube Video]


What contributions have they made in the last 600 years or so?

 I think the answer to this is in direct relation to the last few sentences of Tyson's statements…. Religion got in the way and effectively stopped the progression of the advances made during that 300 year period Tyson initiates the video with….

So… Science Good for all human kind
Religion bad for human kind….
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Western civilization and it's intellectual processes is the result of Christianity, no trivializing or escaping that.


I have to agree with this.

After building up a disdain for Christianity I felt I was falling prey to prejudice. So I took up a Children's NIV Bible and read through the Old Testament and some of the New. (Need to finish.)

--First of all I wanted to understand something before hating on it. (Now I don't.)

--It is a fascinating historical/archeological artifact.

--If you like Sci-fi it is a classic.

--And lastly, our Western Civilization from the Urals west to the shores of Asia was built around it as a paradigm. Even modern secular scientific thinking owes it's history to it. (eg. Darwin was a devout Christian.)
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
Darwin was a springboard toward modern science.

He was the last of his breed, meaning prolific scientific people being devout.

His discoveries disproved his faith.

Edit; I don't hate Christianity, I don't even dislike it. I simply dislike those who preach damnation to me because I don't prescribe to their beliefs, if that makes sense.
Psilocyborg

climber
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
Christians do not have the market cornered on being a stupid as#@&%e. Being a stupid as#@&%e transcends race, religion, and sexual orientation. This ain't rocket science!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:26pm PT

Kindness, culture, to name two things.

One more thing, their "bible" also says to kill all the infadels that don't believe in Mohammed.
This is taught to ALL Muslims. Just because they all don't take up this action doesn't mean that this sentiment isn't in their hearts and minds.

I don't want to start gett'in down on religions that arenot christian.. Wait a minute, yes I do.
To non- religious people looking in. You'll often hear from them that Christians think their better than everyone else because they're always Preach'in a better way. And they are the ONLY true church and all others are wrong. So depending on how the Christian shares this
"Good News", he can either come off as a humble servant, or an egotistical bastard.

So what's wrong with trying to share with ur brothers and sisters The God of Love and that He has a plan for your life.

And if you investigate into all the different religions you'll quickly see that they can't all be right.
They all have Jesus wrapped up in their story's. And once you get drawn in by Him it's entirely
up to you to continue and grow in a relationship with HIM! If the "religion" you are connected to isn't helping you to grow closer to HIM everyday. Then you might not belong to the "right" religion.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
It's amazing what a troll will bring out.

Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
God is the ocean and there are many rivers to get there. Inclusion and acceptance of all religions as different peoples find their chosen path to god, one God one world. He has many brands and everyone is right. Peace on Earth.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Have any of you dudes ever read Einstein, other than his purely scientific treatises? The genius has the clearest and most direct way of communicating his views on spirituality and humanity, I feel, of any secular writer in the last um several hundred centuries.

http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.html

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:23pm PT

Since christians believe tales without evidence, they are not critical thinkers, and it's easy to get them to believe lies like WMD.
Why do christians hate everyone else?

WMD? I'm not sure what this means

Without evidence? I guess your a doughting Thomas. You have to see and touch Jesus to know he alive? Well without you ever knowing or meeting me, and I told you of a 200ft splitter handcrack in the middle of nowhere. And I told you it's the best ever, and drew you a map to get there. And after spending 3 days hiking to it, you climbed it. And in fact it was the best day of ur life! Wouldn't you believe me if I told you where's there another one even better?

For the Christian believer works off two pieces of evidence. First is the Truth. The bible is filled with the truth of man and his first hand experiences with God, and how God deals with mans problems. Within the understanding of the bible one is able to petition the Lord concerning
any spiritual circumztance he finds himself in.
Second, what the secular non believers can't fathom is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once you've asked Jesus into ur heart. Your mind and body will start going thru a transformation.
When your body has been cleansed and made "holy". You can pray and ask The Lord to baptize you with The Holy Ghost. When The HG enters your life it is unequivocally the biggest most provocative Truth that will be exposed to your awareness.

And it's this loving, caring Spirit that conjoins us Christians. And the Holy Spirit works thru us.
So we can SEE and feel His work in each others life's from our prayers and meditation.

This is our evidence
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:24pm PT

One tradition (Judeo, Christian)has produced more equality, productivity, higher standards of living and greater individual freedom than any other.







More than say, Buddhism?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus"


Ummmm, somebody got their story mixed up. Every point is the equivalent to the media's portrayal of climbing "how do they get the rope up there?"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
Norton what's ur motivation? Just to bash Christianity?

Because if it is I'm not going to bother. I've already spent numerous posts in trying to help you understand where I'm coming from. And you continue to heap upon me YOUR conclusions of what you've come to understand as Christianity. I think your attitude comes from being brought up a roman gothic catholic, and you couldn't meet up to their standards. Well that's NOT Christianity! NOONE can be righteous unto the Law. And NOONE is made righteous
or condemned by their deeds.
Have you ever even known a spirit filled Christian?
Do you even know what the New Testament is to The Old Testament?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:41pm PT

More than say, Buddhism?

Buddhas great revelation was that suffering brings humility to the ego.
Even though Buddhism is a religion to some. It has no respect to any god or creator.
And has no opinion on the creation of the universe or life. It's just a practiced "religion"
on how to keep everyone at the same tone.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:06am PT
there's a third leg to the western civilization stool that has been forgotten.

Anyone here know who Solon was? Or why he skipped town?


Draco? And the origin of the term Draconian?

Pericles?

Cato?




Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:11am PT
You are referring to the Greek leg of the stool. Everyone's favorite I think.


Voltaire might be the other leg.





Nice photo Locker. Pretty much says it all. ;-)
jstan

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:20am PT
Mike:
Norton is not dependent upon having a belief system.

That's as brief as I can make it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:21am PT
"The Skeptic's Annotated Bible" is finally in print!


http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_11?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=skeptics%20annotated%20bible&sprefix=Skeptics+an%2Cstripbooks%2C322&rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3Askeptics%20annotated%20bible

Frequently Bought Together:
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible
High Sierra Climbing, by C Mac


.....

Tooth, you're an embarrassment, you should know better. :(

.....

If Christianity or Islam survives the 21st century, it will only be because our education programs failed or because human civilization collapsed.

Remember this one?
It's Ovah for Jehovah.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:30am PT
People hate Christianity because the followers preach and are ordered to by following the friggin gospel...

... stop preaching!
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:44am PT
What's the difference between a cult and a religion? About 100 years.
TY
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:01am PT
People,
This is a prime example of what Catholicism does to ya. It was invented some 500 yrs after Christ rose. It was a means to SHOW the illiterate people how they could perform and DO
acts to be Christ-like. This is a very slippery slope. And is very much against what Jesus taught. And is not apart of the true bible. So the Catholics, along with the mormans, and the Muslims had to rewrite and add more books to the bible to justify their teachings. These religions teach that you must live a certain way, and only do certain things to be justified by God. And if you do do something wrong, they will tell you what you must do to make it up to God inorder to be forgiven. This makes sense in the WORLD where you earn a dollar and you can spend a dollar. And the theory of an eye for an eye. That's why God said the old testament was just a shadow of things to come. Meaning the new testament. And the glory of Jesus. He paid the full price for ALL our wrong doings! So we don't have to DO anything to make it right before Gods eyes other than to point towards Jesus. Hallelujah!
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:37am PT
I could never hate or dislike any of you as much as you seem to me and my faith. I couldn't ever really imagine having feelings like Riley's. Couldn't bring myself to harbor such hurtful fellings towards another. Must be pretty heavy for all of you to carry around.


Here's an interesting take on Christianity from a professed atheist. It's the dude Penn....from Penn and Teller. You may have seen it. If not, take a look and let me know what you think.

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Just an honest perspective that I appreciated when I saw it.
-Scott
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:47am PT
What a fresh, innovative concept!

A forum discussion, in which, one side...pretending to be lambs...accuse the other...

of being WOLVES!




But what is the prize?

The title of "Master Thinker"... or merely entitlement to one's own sense of self-righteousness?


:-)
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:57am PT

I could never hate or dislike any of you as much as you seem to me and my faith.


Just a private reflection, Scott...I doubt anyone,here, sustains any hatred for you, personally. You've been a positive presence since I joined...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:15am PT
Voltaire might be the other leg.


Voltare is way too late, Commentator on, not driver of.


There was no pretense of separation of academia and religion until well after the Civil War. But for a handful of exceptions, all of the universities and colleges were seminaries for various sects.

Religion doesn't start really to disappear from academia until the influx of European academic exiles in the early twentieth century.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:41am PT
I could never hate or dislike any of you as much as you seem to me and my faith. I couldn't ever really imagine having feelings like Riley's. Couldn't bring myself to harbor such hurtful fellings towards another. Must be pretty heavy for all of you to carry around.

You choose to associate yourself with those who believe that torturing and killing gays is fine. You personally believe in prohibiting people from having equal civil rights. You do not believe in the right of people to peacefully and privately practice their beliefs....you believe that you should convert them. You tell them that they will go to hell, that their children will go to hell.

I don't know how more hateful you could be.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
^^^^ that's a pretty damning personal acusation. Got any evidence to back that up? I looked through some of his old posts and saw nothing remotely resembling such a mindset. You probably owe him an apology.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 12, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
A Jew, Italian, and Greek arrive at the Pearly Gates. All three beg for another life on Earth. God decides to agree on three conditions...

(1. The Jew must restrain from being a penny-pincher.

(2. The Italian must restrain from eating spaghetti for the rest of his new life.

(3. The Greek must stop being a homosexual.

If they break these rules they go to hell. ((So there IS a hell! This is valid proof for some. For others just a point of departure in their denial of it's possibility. To quote Oliver STone, "Hell is the impossibility of reason."))

They all think about it and they agree and become friens since they arived in heaven together. ((In the days of pigs flying...))

Five years later all three are walking together and they are on edge because they what to do what god told them to do. The group passes an Olive Garden and the Italian leaves the pack and eats spaghetti. Poof! The Italian goes to hell.

So the Jew and Greek continue to walk down the street. The Jew sees a penny on the sidewalk and he can't resist. As the Jew bends over they both go to hell.

Three-legged races are hard. Five-legged races, almost impossible for more than short distances, but if they want to really compete, two legs gotta go. But do the other two gang up on him? No. They start accusing each other of slacking, too. It doesn't matter which pairs with which, none of them are capable of getting along for mor than a few yards together.

Accept it and stop arguing among yourselves.

Many of you are acting like babies, jackasses, and overbearing egos.


I do it at times myself, so I know.

I believe God will provide,however, no matter who or what he is. Truly I do. But he doesn't provide answers, gentlemen.

Don't try to "settle" anything, just learn to be tolerant.

It's what your teachers and the more enlightened among religious leaders have tried to tell you ALL YOUR LIVES! (Pyro, and some others as bitter, you may have reasonably understandable angst and hate, that's cool, bro.)

If I were your dad, however, and I'm glad I'm not,...

Thank you.

Now I'm ready for a popcorn bloat.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
I could never hate or dislike any of you as much as you seem to me and my faith. I couldn't ever really imagine having feelings like Riley's. Couldn't bring myself to harbor such hurtful fellings towards another. Must be pretty heavy for all of you to carry around.

You choose to associate yourself with those who believe that torturing and killing gays is fine. You personally believe in prohibiting people from having equal civil rights. You do not believe in the right of people to peacefully and privately practice their beliefs....you believe that you should convert them. You tell them that they will go to hell, that their children will go to hell.

I don't know how more hateful you could be. ....

^^^^ that's a pretty damning personal acusation. Got any evidence to back that up? I looked through some of his old posts and saw nothing remotely resembling such a mindset. You probably owe him an apology.


I think it's perfectly fair actually. If you claim to be Christain then we can assume many things about you. Esspecially if we understand the religious beliefs equated with Christainity. If you are going to claim to be Christain, you should be prepared to stand behind it's tenants and face the scrutiny of doing so. I personally belive Christains are not sane, how can they possibly belive in a magical sky wizard in this day and age? If they are ignorant to the science and knowledge human kind has gathered, fine. But it's there if you bother to ask the right questions, and ignorance is nothing but a choice in this the information age. I also personally believe sane people, when faced with the truth, will make a logical and sound decision regarding faith in things which simply are not there, so Christians are either lazy or insane. You have to remember these are the same people who feel superior enough to judge others, to damn them to hell, and to label them incomplete if we do not believe the same thing they do (insert middle finger facing sky here). When in reality the opposite is true. Religion spreads ignorance, it hinders the growth of mankind's evolution and progress toward a better world, religion is destructive. It's about time those of us who feel strongly about it speak up and be heard. It's about time that the social stigma of not being a cult member is broken, it's time for mankind to outgrow religion, faith and prayer...We understand more about the world around us than you could possibility imagine. Too bad you have wasted your life studying a meaningless book instead of learning the language of science so you could even fathom or understand the findings and progress we have made. It is a thousand times more miraculous and fascinating than anything the mind can conjurer and imagine, why? because it's actually true...

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
"why do I hate Christianity so much?"
That's pretty presumptuous. I don't "hate" Christians, Christianity nor any other religion (excepting of course the real control freaks such as Scientologists, Branch Davidians and their ilk).

I'll leave you alone as long as you:
Don't try to make others live by your silly notions. In other words, stay the F**K out of my (and every one else's) government.
Applies to: the Mormon State of Utah, Christian fundamentalists, Islamic fundamentalists.

Stay the F**K out of my child's schools (see the above).

Don't try to bend public policy to your superstitions:
Birth control, abortion, evolution, climate change. (see my child's schools)
Ronald Reagan and His Acolytes; George W Bush and Tony Blair (God told me to go get Saddam) and their toadies.

Don't discriminate:
Racial discrimination: see Mormon Religion
Religious discrimination: see most fundamentalists. "We're better (more righteous) than you other wankers who are by implication sinners". and "You godless atheists are the WORST of the lot and your souls will burn in Hell". My soul certainly won't burn in my non-existent Hell.

Don't discriminate against Women
When half the Cardinals and the Pope are women the Catholic church can claim to speak for women. Until then stay the F**K out of their vaginas, educational and job opportunities and rights to political office.
Ditto the Mormon Church.
Ditto most (not all) Islamic sects.
Especially Polygamists (I have the dubious distinction of going to high school with at least one).

Don't proselytize: you leave me alone and I'll leave you alone
See all of the above, especially the Mormon Church.

The Fundamental foundations of most religions, INCLUDING Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, most flavors of Christianity boil down to: Take care of each other, Respect each other, we're all Brothers (and Sisters).

OR as George Carlin famously said:
And so, with all of this in mind, folks, I offer you my revised list of the Two Commandments:

First:
•THOU SHALT ALWAYS BE HONEST AND FAITHFUL, ESPECIALLY
TO THE PROVIDER OF THY NOOKIE.

And second:

•THOU SHALT TRY REAL HARD NOT TO KILL ANYONE, UNLESS,
OF COURSE, THEY PRAY TO A DIFFERENT INVISIBLE AVENGER
THAN THE ONE YOU PRAY TO.

Two is all you need, folks. Moses could have carried them down the hill in his pocket. And if we had a list like that, I wouldn't mind that brilliant judge in Alabama displaying it prominently in his courthouse lobby. As long he in­cluded one additional commandment:

•THOU SHALT KEEP THY RELIGION TO THYSELF!!!

From George Carlin – When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops (2004)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Western civilization and it's intellectual processes is the result of Christianity, no trivializing or escaping that.

Is that the result of the church burning scientists?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
The life of a person who sincerely believes in Christianity and walks a life with Jesus Christ compelling him or her should be marked by the following:

Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness and Self Control
(I can't see what isn't to like about that. Let alone hate, despise, dislike, ridicule or be bothered by)

No way around it. Though we all sometimes fail to let these things shine, it should be the overwhelming course of our lives.

Some reading for those who haven't seen of some of what's going on in Nepal lately. Hope you dig it.

-Scott

A Trip Report about one of our trips to Nepal a couple years back
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/To-Nepal-and-Back-Again-and-Back-Again-A-Trip-Report/t10520n.html


Also, an honest question.....is much of what you feel/believe about Christianity based on personal experience with friends and family who are Christians, or your politcal worldview driven by media, reading,, etc....
ie: What you hear about Christianity rather than first hand relationships?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Well put Squishy.

.....

I can't see what isn't to like about that.

Your bronze age truth-claims influence, otherwise obstruct, our culture, our politics and laws, our education systems, our thinking on important community, national and global issues, our problem solving ability on same - that's enough. And growing numbers are getting sick and tired of it.

is much of what you feel/believe about Christianity based on personal experience with friends and family who are Christians, or your politcal worldview driven by media, reading,, etc....

ANS How about a modern 21st century science (evidence and reason) based understanding of how things work.

You need to wake up.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
It is great to help other people, good work in Nepal. Helping others however can be done without belief in a dogma that has no basis in fact.

That is what we atheists find repulsive.

Blind belief in unfounded logic is completely unpalatable to a person of science.

You going to 3rd world countries and helping the poor does not convince a scientist that your beliefs are valid or appropriate for the advancement of mankind. But keep doing it, I'm sure those people really appreciate your work.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
No, that is silly.

Christians are supernaturalists. A mere step removed from astrologers. There. That for starters.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
Micronut, would you be performing such service to the Nepalis if you were not acting as a Christian?

I suspect you would be doing your good work regardless of your belief mechanism.
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
High Fructose,

That photo's funny man. Solid.
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Todd,

That's a good question. I'm not really sure. Maybe not actually. I have always been one who's high risk to try and achieve the "American Dream." I'd love to just keep makin' money and taking trips to great places and buyin' my wife all kinds of cool stuff for the great woman she is. I'd probably buy a bigger house. And a boat...cause I love boats. But I don't have one, and I choose to give a great deal of my time and resources and money to go do things that are really hard for me because I am compelled to through the Holy Spirit (sorry to get all hocus pocus on yall). It's definitely not in my wiring to go do this stuff, and sometimes it's not even that rewarding knowing we are helping so little in such a broad area of misfortune and poverty. If it weren't for the active work of Christ in my life I believe I would be generally self centered, seeking my own well being, my own wealth and health and joy for the sake of myself. It's Christ who compels me and changes me. Who shows me to love others, to put down my desires and go and help those who are in need. To show kindness and goodness to those without hope, be it here in the states or in a cave on the Tibetan border. It's been my personal transformation from selfish to unselfish in general that makes me think this way. I could not have done it alone.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
why does everyone hate christianity so much?

The question really should be rephrased:

Why does everyone hate true Christianity so much?


Read your Bible. The answer is plain to see. The sign of the times.



Eph.6:12
Eph.6:1-18 (KJV)
[1] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
[2] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
[3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
[4] And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
[5] Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
[6] Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
[7] With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
[8] Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
[9] And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
[10] Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
[11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
[14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
[15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
[16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
[18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;




John 15:18
John.15:1-19 (KJV)
[1] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
[14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
[15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
[16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
[17] These things I command you, that ye love one another.
[18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
[19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.




Matt. 24:12
Matt.24:1-14 (KJV)
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.




So who's side are you on? HaShem's or Lucifer's? No matter what you do you're taking a side whether you know it or not, want to or not.

I stand with HaShem Adonai Elohim: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

How about you?
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Dr. F
For the record

1. Abortion: I'd believe it was killing a child even if I wasn't a Christian. I've felt that since embryology class (brutally hard class by the way) in my pre-med days.

2. Climate Change: A real problem. Undeniable. It's happening. I'm doing my part when I can even if it's just a drop in the bucket.

3. Evolution: Micro...yes. Undeniable and a beautiful thing. Macro....between species. I know for a fact you can't prove this one, you're gonna need to show me the "jump." So its a theory. Let's be open minded, like a good scientist should be, to other options eh?

4. Prayer in Schools. All kids of all religions should be allowed to pray in schools at any time and this shouldn't bug you much since it seems Christian prayer in schools is on the way out.

5. Abstinence. You mind if your daughter sleeps around? That's cool. I have been faithful to one woman my whole life and I hope and pray my children are. Its a wonderful way to be in and honor your spouse. Does that bother you?

6. Anti-Science? I have two doctorates, one in bone physiology with publications in three journals and I lecture to grand rounds at my local hospital. I'm a scientist every day, living it out in private surgical practice. I love Science. I can draw you the Kreb's Cycle if you want. I did malate. Its my favorite.

care to respond to any of these? I think its a good conversation.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
So who's side are you on? HaShem's or Lucifer's? No matter what you do you're taking a side whether you know it or not, want to or not.

I stand with HaShem Adonai Elohim: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

How about you?

Neither. Your imaginary friend and your imaginary enemy are equally bogus constructs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Anti-Science? I have two doctorates, one in bone physiology with publications in three journals and I lecture to grand rounds at my local hospital. I'm a scientist every day, living it out in private surgical practice. I love Science. I can draw you the Kreb's Cycle if you want. I did malate. Its my favorite.

Compare:

Anti-climbing? I have two certificates, one in TR and one in belay. I'm a climber every day, living it out in RockSport in Reno. I love climbing. I can draw you topos of the yellow and green routes. I did green just yesterday. It's my favorite.

The point: There's a great deal more to science than (just) bone physiology or (just) the Kreb cycle.

But you are an enigma. I do wonder, as I have in the past, just how much biochem, molecular biology, pharm, neuro, genetics, actually entered your thinking, your beliefs. Because it seems not much for you and your thinking and your beliefs not to be constrained by understanding of their basic processes, mechanisms of action, etc.. Same goes with what you said about evolution. Seems to me, for some reason or another, you're ignoring wide swaths of info or knowledge from the sciences as you attempt to rationalize your beliefs in the supernatural.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
The life of a person who sincerely believes in Christianity and walks a life with Jesus Christ compelling him or her should be marked by the following:

Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness and Self Control
(I can't see what isn't to like about that. Let alone hate, despise, dislike, ridicule or be bothered by)

No way around it. Though we all sometimes fail to let these things shine, it should be the overwhelming course of our lives.

The key word is SHOULD. The problem is that it is so RARE. In reality, I find such people *by my personal experience* filled with hate for others, envy of others, blame of others, biased treatment of others. That's a daily experience.

Christians have a very very long history of intolerance of others, to the point of killing and enslaving.
Abissi

Trad climber
MI
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Someone (George Mallory I think it was) said If you have to ask the question you'll never understand the answer. I a currently working on my Masters degree in theology (Hey, I'm now 56 years old so I am taking the extended plan) and from what I am reading there is a great myriad of questions being asked here, not just one.

Who can't love a God who says things like "your sins are forgiven you for his namesake" (I John 2:12) or "In all these things we are more than conquerors" (Romans 8:37) or how about, "This is the promise that He has promised you, eternal life" (I John 2:25)

A lot of harm has been done in the world in the name of Christianity, Most of these so called christians can't tell you how many gospels are in the canon (4). It's too bad that the misbehaviour of some is assumed to be the standard of conduct for the many. In the first century Christianity was one unified faith, Today there are more different"religions" than there are stocks on the New York Stock Exchange. If people got away from the traditions that have been handed down to them and got back to the one standard of faith and practice, The Bible, then we wouldn't see questions like "why does everyone hate christianity so much".

I hope everyone doesn't start hating me because of my christianity. I prefer to think of myself as everybody's pal.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Oh no! Abisis wrote
I am currently working on my Masters degree in theology.

Get out now! The only silver lining here is that you are 56, not 26!

For sure, ASAP, check out Daniel Dennett (lecture, youtube) on the wasted life and tragedy of becoming a theologian!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bwe7TIv4LY
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
For you High Fructose. What's your first name anyway man? C'mon. Give it up for the sake of discussion.
My Citric Acid cycle is from memory from many years ago, so any of yall science types can give some grace if I botched any of it please.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
Who can't love a God who says things like "your sins are forgiven you for his namesake" (I John 2:12)

Anyone who doesn't make the mistake of conflating bad behavior with an imaginary abstract absolute invented to evoke guilt and instill unquestioning obedience.

or "In all these things we are more than conquerors" (Romans 8:37)

Anyone who who isn't obsessed with dominating their dominators.

or how about, "This is the promise that He has promised you, eternal life" (I John 2:25)

Anyone who's quite content with the prospect of death being the definitive end of his or her personal consciousness and identity.

On the other hand, if any of those things really bug ya, by all means find solace where you can. Just stop annoying the rest of us with the holier than thou schitck. It doesn't work.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
I was a confirmed roman catholic, a student of Christianity from a private Christian school, complete with itchy uniforms. In high school I became very active in the catholic church, running small youth groups, volunteering for retreats and missions to Mexico. For a time it was my life and I felt so strongly I toyed with the idea of becoming a servant of the church, then I grew older and the doubts creep in. I began looking for my own answers, as we all should. I attended every church in town, listened and tried to feel them out (the mormon glare was too much to bare). I began studying all the religions, trying to find out why mine said all the others were false. I found most of them were actually just mirrors of each other, separated by futile earthly reasons. The Prophets just had different names.

That led me to anthropology and history, which are still my favorite subjects (California history in particular). My high school friends had the same doubts after being dragged to church as children, some of them went into the sciences. They taught me things indirectly as they progressed over the years through school, they passed on their knowledge and tried to enlighten me on what they had learned. Of course it was way over my head considering the advanced level of their knowledge but I trust someone who has dedicated their life to a subject (hell, call it faith), making life long sacrifices for the development of a theory or the advancement of mankind. Most scientists don't even have time for children in this society. Molecular biologists, chemists and basic researchers know more about a drop of water than they can explain to you in a week (mainly because you lack the vocabulary). It is said that biology is only true under the light of evolution. There are very few people on this earth who understand the mechanics of life and still believe in a magical sky wizard. So it could be said that I have listened to others on the subject and taken their opinion and knowledge at face value. But I also don't want to spend 10 years learning the subject enough to understand the details of what they were telling me. We listen to those more knowledgeable than ourselves for the purpose of efficiency, and yes, you do risk getting biased opinions.

Since I began doubting what I heard from the pulpit I have worked to educate myself and I have a vast library of religious texts and anthropology books. I began my journey before the internet, but it's even easier for people to get the truth now (or the opposite). I am not a scientist, hell I didn't even go to college or take advanced classes in high school. But I do know that there's people who did and we should listen to them, we should read and study their data and findings that are published in respected scientific journals every day. The science community is scrambling every day to prove each other wrong (peer review), they fight for very limited funding, and they fight to further their line of research and subject of study. To discredit someone who knows a sh#t load more about something than you is another ignorant act unless you have some real data to back it up and religion has never had any data, only faith.

You simply do not know what you do not know, and all I have truly learned through the years is that I don't know sh#t, but I do know it's best to ask questions, find out for yourself, go ask the people who have dedicated their lives to finding the answers. To listen for one moment to a man on a pulpit tell you about science or even hint that science "could" be wrong, shows just how ignorant believers truly are. If I heard one peep of science being muttered from a pulpit I would walk out, even if the massage was a positive one, filled with subjective love and warm fuzzies. It's time we transcended what is really going on, and that is the spread and propagation of ignorance from anti-scientists.

AND!! To raise our children in such fear and ignorance is paramount to child abuse in light of what we know and understand about the world, and I will stand by that statement with every fiber of my being. My daughter will hear the truth at every corner, every question she has will be answered with the truth (I may have to google a lot of it), and it does not matter her age, if she is old enough to ask the question, she will get THE answer. Anything less is a disservice to the future of our species and those who came before us to gather that knowledge. She will not be baptized (at the protest of several grandparents) she will not go to church. The bible will be there on the shelf if she is curious. It's right next to the Quran, the I Ching, and lots of other fascinating books from our history.


Science is not a belief, institution, group of people or a book. It's a methodology, a process which is uniform and consistent. It seeks reproducible data through a systematic process and it does not answer questions, it seeks only to disprove theory and hypotheses. The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as: "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses." Therefore, science does not prove anything, it only tries to dis-prove, and when it fails to do so, it inadvertently tells us about our world. When it cannot disprove an idea, it sticks with us and is assumed true until it is dis-proven or new data is added (see peer review above). This is why we call it The Theory of Evolution still, because science does not ever claim to have the answer, only factual data gathered through the scientific method. The religious people in this world who listen to the man on the pulpit who tells them science is the devils work, are some of the most ignorant people on this planet. 1st of all, they believe science claims to have answers, displaying a lack of knowledge about even the subject of the scientific method itself. They hinder and stifle scientific research and progress in the name of a fairy tale. They hold a country and it's future generations hostage in the name of a magical sky wizard.

Yes I am filled with hateful thoughts on the matter, but not hate for a people or person. It is hate for an ideology and it's results. And it's not a burden, I feel it's a blessing. It is said somewhere in a book I once read (the bible), that wisdom only gives grief, it is the price of knowledge. I hate the fact that people fall for religion still, I hate the fact that I once fell for it, and I hate the damage it has done, is doing and will continue to do, to the progress of mankind and the world. If you could place yourself in my shoes a moment, take my point of view on the subject, would you not also feel strongly about it? If you were able to transcend the history of society from an anthropological point of view taking into account the negative influence region has had over everything, you may feel that hatred as well. And if you have not asked the questions, sought the answers and thought critically about it, how can you fault someone who has? Or the resulting feelings? It's time we sane people of the world pulled out our text books, our databases and our reproducible results and bashed the sh#t out of the believers as they have done to us since the beginning of grief and the invention of faith and prayer.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

opps, too late...guess what..it's coming right back at cha..


If you are interested in educating yourself on the subject, I suggest seeking and finding our current theories on the anthropological history of religions. It is fascinating and dare I say in light of my post, blasphemous...




Abissi

Trad climber
MI
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Citune - Holier than thou? hey I'm in the real world just a humble climber, I'm sorry if your offended
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
A lot of harm has been done in the world in the name of Christianity, Most of these so called christians can't tell you how many gospels are in the canon (4). It's too bad that the misbehaviour of some is assumed to be the standard of conduct for the many. In the first century Christianity was one unified faith, Today there are more different"religions" than there are stocks on the New York Stock Exchange. If people got away from the traditions that have been handed down to them and got back to the one standard of faith and practice, The Bible, then we wouldn't see questions like "why does everyone hate christianity so much".

Amazing confession of blindness..
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
I sure wouldn't want to spend my time in heaven with a bunch of forgiven rapists, murders & conn artists.


Worse -- to have to spend time on earth with long winded defenses of god on a TROLL.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
Squishy - Epic post!

Science is not a belief, institution, group of people or a book.

FACT: If you read a book of science, and believe it, rather than observe it for yourself, you are following a belief.


Many people today who claim to be secular have placed their faith in science.

It is therefore just another religion.


Atheism is utterly dependent on God so has to actively disbelieve.


Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Many people today who claim to be secular have placed their faith in science.

That has got to be one of the stupidest things you fairytale believers have ever come up with.
TwistedCrank

climber
Bungwater Hollow, Ida-ho
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Baby Jesus fukkin rawks.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
The key word is SHOULD. The problem is that it is so RARE. In reality, I find such people *by my personal experience* filled with hate for others, envy of others, blame of others, biased treatment of others. That's a daily experience.

Christians have a very very long history of intolerance of others, to the point of killing and enslaving.

Aye. There's the rub! Christians have a long history of sin. If we didn't, the Gospel would not be good news.

I became a Christian because of the change I saw in the lives of other Christians I knew. A Christian without a changed life has a dead faith. Frankly, the sanctimony exhibited by so many Christians turned me off for a couple of decades.

Christians are called to be witnesses of Christ. As such, we need to remember two things: (1) Only the Holy Spirit can convert a person. We can tell the good news and present our lives as a living sacrifice, but neither our lives nor our words alone will cause conversion; and (2) We will be maligned as long as we oppose the World.

Tempted though I am to respond to what I consider baseless insults -- particularly insults of the intellect of Christians -- I see no need. The readers can determine for themselves whether the Christian responders to this thread have less of an intellectual capacity than their scoffers. In any case, words on a forum carry little weight compared with observation of our lives.

I just wish I were better up to that challenge.

John
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Most of the problems folks have with religions is the often not-to-subtle judgememnt coming from the faithful that lest you believe as they do, there is something wrong if not downright evil in your character, somethng wonderful they have and you don't, and untill you do ,you are at a loss, to say nothing of being damned.

In a broad sense, this is cultish thinking, believing that one religious source has an exclusive or privileged knowledge about God, love, morality, human nature, et al. That is one of the earmarks of most doctrine-driven religions: We alone are "right," are God's Chosen Ones. When this is married to faux humility, tenderly delivered, it becomes terribly passive-aggressive and blindly evil and unconscious - a virus to mankind.

Many people can see religious exclusivism for what it is - us humans seeking allies for what lights our lamp. Others intuit this as a put down and a threat to their being in some way.

In fact it's just humans being humans. No one has an exclusive on anything. Ever. But we have every reason to want on.

JL
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
is much of what you feel/believe about Christianity based on personal experience with friends and family who are Christians,

YES (assuming Mormons are Christians, which many fundamentalist christians deny)

Growing up in the Theistic Mormon State of Utah. Spending many evenings discussing religion with my adolescent church group (yes, I was a skeptical "christian"). Plenty of Mormon and Christian friends, some of them close friends.
Personally knowing (in high school) a polygamist and talking to some of his wives several years ago.

Watching fundamentalists (in other states) trying to foist creationism on school districts as a valid alternative to evolution.

As an example of religious belief interfering in public life.
The Book of Mormon states that Negros are the marked descendants of Ham. Until 1978, they couldn't hold the Priesthood.
From Brigham Young in 1849
"What chance is there for the redemption of the Negro?" Young responded, "The Lord had cursed Cain's seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood."[1]

From 1849 to 1978, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) had a policy against ordaining black men to the priesthood, and forbidding black men and women from taking part in ceremonies in LDS temples. Associated with this policy were various statements by church leaders tying the policy to their view of scripture, and opining that black men and women had inherited the curse of Ham. In 1978, President Spencer W. Kimball, the leader of the LDS church, declared in a statement known as "Official Declaration—2" that the ban had been lifted.
Both quotes from Wikipedia. Plenty of references if you want to read the whole history of THAT nonsense.
Could the plurality of Mormons who believed that black men and women couldn't hold the priesthood have been free of racial discrimination in their associations outside church? I really doubt it. Could they have freed themselves of racial discrimination after 1978? Not easily and certainly not quickly.

Now there are PLENTY of rational, non-discriminatory Mormons, including friends of mine. But there are also the "Book of Mormon is Literal" Mormans who I'd call "fundamentalist". And much worse, the Fundamental Church of Latter Day Saints (FDLS) who practice polygamy.

I'm not Anti-all Christianity, nor Anti-any religion in particular (with a few exceptions for the real wackos including FLDS).
Just don't pretend that all the stuff you read in the religious texts is "real" or describes real history or worse yet our present world. They are mostly fine stories, some are useful and guiding parables, and some are just ancient myths selected to keep the sheep in line.

Believe in God (whoever that is)
Believe in Christ, Buddha, Joseph Smith (they were all real people but who was Most Divine?)
Take Christ's teachings (whatever they really were) as moral guides for your own life. Don't forget the Old Testament was Jewish and most Jews don't take it all literally. Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt?

Just don't try to dictate how to run a modern society on ancient, mythical shibboleths.
Homosexuality is a sinful choice rather than a natural feeling for a percentage of the human race?
Women can't control their reproductive choices? Dictated by Male hegemonies such as Congress and the Catholic church.
Creationism should be taught as a alternative to evolution?

Next thing you know, the fundamentalist christians will be claiming Global Warming/Climate Change must be a hoax because God wouldn't do that. Oh, wait, He destroyed Sodom and Gomorroh, fossilized Lot's wife. Perhaps He IS behind global warming. To punish homosexuals, liberals, muslims and us godless atheists. After all, He promises milk and honey (and many wives for Mormons and Muslims) in heaven for the True Believers.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
I don't hate christians for damning me. I do a pretty good job of that myself.

I don't hate any religion. I don't hate the lack of religion. I have no religion myself, and yet oddly I hang around this thread.

Me and a bunch of other godless people... now why is that????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

DMT

the possibility for change? the presents of a teachable moment?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Prayer in Schools. All kids of all religions should be allowed to pray in schools at any time and this shouldn't bug you much since it seems Christian prayer in schools is on the way out.

NO

emphatically no

private schools, ok, pray all day if you want, the parents are picking up the tab

but not in taxpayer financed Public Schools,,,,no

no way ANY religion should be allowed, in any form,, per our god damn Constitution

Tell that to kids taking a test for which they are not properly prepared. As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools!

John
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
Norton,

When I say "prayer in schools" I mean allowing a kid to pray on his own time according to his own god without fear of persecution by the school system. Thats all.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
Seen Oblivion (2013, Tom Cruise) yet?

"Then out spake brave Horatius,
The Captain of the Gate:
"To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods."

How about "Gods" as a metaphor?

A metaphor for man's deepest beliefs?
Which is, of course, far afield of Jehovah, God of Moses.
This is probably how the word's going
to evolve in future generations.

Pretty good film, see it.
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
I hear you Dr. F.
(And by the way, you can refer to me as your "Christian friend" if you're sitting around the bar talking about me from here on out.)

So at the risk of you thinking I'm a bigger wacko than you probably already do... Yeah, I'm cool with believing that all species have been intact from the beginning.

What part of that is hard for you? I mean that sincerely.

With the beauty of microevolution along the way resulting in the beautiful diversity we now have. I have read and studied (on my own albeit) Darwin's works as well as contemporary lit and have yet to see solid proof of evolution from one species into the next.




domain
kingdom
phylum
class
order
family
genus
species

I am talking about DNA lineage here. Conversion from one species to another complete and distinct species. Where has that been proven? You seem to be so confident. I'm cool if you want to say you have "faith" that it happens, because I cannot prove my angle scientifically either. It just seems to take less faith to believe that the species were always there, than to hope they have altered/morphed/adapted into new species.

But truthfully, I think there are bigger heart issues at hand than evolution. I am totally cool if somebody believes humans evolved from primates, I just disagree and move on. I think the bigger question is "Do you think mankind is created essentially good...or essentially bad." That's the big one.
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Dave I think 95% of practical modern medicine is rooted soundly in the scientific method.....until 20 years goes by and we look back and our work and meds and procedures look barbaric.....so I live in the here and now scientific community quite comfortably with a Christian faith that supports the methodology, pharmacology and cutting edge technology of my practice.

It's really just macro-evolution that divides us....and maybe astronomy. Those are a bit more art than science sometimes and there's often a great deal of room for interpretation. But day to day my patients want to make sure I have a firm grasp of oncology when I'm gonna remove a tumor rather than my take on us coming from primates or if I really think there's life on Alpha Centauri.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Pretty well sums it up...

Judge: Baby can't be named 'Messiah'

A Tennessee judge has ordered the parents of a 7-month-old boy to rename their son "Martin" instead of "Messiah," CNN affiliate WBIR reports. "The word Messiah is a title and it's a title that has only been earned by one person and that one person is Jesus Christ," Child Support Magistrate Lu Ann Ballew said. Jaleesa Martin, the child's mother, told WBIR that she intends to appeal the decision.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
I have been out a little, couple times a month, we still gotta get out man (Saturday?). I need to get out more but the little one is keeping me busy and satisfied...

Funny what you say about the 6 thousand year thing though, I recently discovered a pile of people, young people at that, in another forum who all believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and that men walked with dinosaurs. their reasoning behind science's conclusion is planted evidence by Satan. There are thousands of such believers in the US, I like to call them fundies. They are fundamentalists, on the literal end of creationism. I argued with him for the sake of the audience but it was apparent that I was dealing with an indoctrinated teenager who was taught the bible is literally true and there is no other truth in the world.

As an example I will even cross post some of their prose.

Kent hovind did around 100 debates with evolutionists and basically never lost. He will debate anyone and his expense and the debate can be on whatever topic and context his opponent wants. He offered to pay Richard Dawkins to debate him but the whimp turned him down. If Dawkins "knows" evolution is a fact then what does he have to lose. He is scared about it somehow and he should admit it or accept the debate. You should watch kent hovind's debate with Mikel shermer from skeptic magazine. you've probably never even watched a creation/evolution debate let alone done some actual studying of creation from a creation scientist perspective. I have studied evolution and know how evolution is supposed to work, and I find it pretty boring and its just like reading the princes and the frog story. But I'd like a good answer on this.... If you don't learn the evidence for creation then why should I learn about evolution?

that would be a good thing for you squishy. you like what you think is science gives you... evolution. we can makes your own morals because we're just advanced animals right? no moral standard expect what we think is right. and you hate the questions we ask. thats what science does, ask questions and if someone is to close-minded to even question evolution or anything for that matter than they by definition are against science and the scientific method. and btw that whole little phrase is just plain dumb. yes by doing scientific research people make discoveries that make life easier and explain things. and people like what science gives them. but what does evolution have to do with this which was exactly what you were referring to, we'rent you? evolution has nothing to do with science. and if you go around believing that because someone doesn't believe in evolution they dont like science, then you have no idea what science is. and id like to know what questions science asks that I dont like. ask me one. you have to think a litte before you posts ignorant posts. PLEASE!


suishy... like most people in america and on this forum will agree you have an extreme twisted and dangerous view of america (and how it should be). when you were a kid (maybe a little before) people would have laughed at richard Dawkins and most people didn't even think twice that evolution was a fairy tail. you live with a minority in California and I feel for you.

There are so many examples like the ones below so there is no way they are all fake! Man didn't coin the term dinosaur until the 1800s but many ancient cultures referred to a "dragon". These examples are all hundreds of years old so how did man know about dinosaurs if there is a gap between them and man? Evolutionist need the gap to prove the fossil records are millions of years old. Any breakdown of that disproves all their theories of an old earth and they need that for the evolution argument!
http://www.icr.org/article/6041/
http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/temples-dinosaurs-carved-in-stone/
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=2423
and how does soft tissue survive for 68 million years???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer
The Urey/Miller experiment never produced all the amino acids did it? And it was done in laboratory conditions! And how did the chemicals get together in the correct order and proper sequence? The first cell would have needed hundreds of thousands of DNA code pairs to just to come to life! And where did the information come from so it knew how to reproduce copies of itself? Chance? Really? The cell evolved in water but the DNA comes apart quickly in water so the numerous systems that organiisms use to protect the DNA would not have evolved quickly enough! Extinct before it started!
Then there is "irreducible complexity". This is the interdependence of the various function of all organisms. If you go to start your car and there is no spark at the right time it won't start. Organisms are the same way. Our blood has 17 steps to thicken and form a clot when we are cut. All the systems need to be there and all the steps need to be taken and in the correct order or the clot happens to quick in our bodies or to late outside our bodies and we die! We would be extinct before we started to evolve! If evolution has slow step-by-step stages what information caused it to change how a system works or what job it performs. And where are the various stages in the fossil records?
The wood frog shuts down his heart, breathing and kidneys for months which causes 2/3 of his body to freeze in the winter. If it happens the first time and the systems which allow him to recover are not evolved then he is extinct! But if he had never froze before how did evolution know he needed it???
An Australian aquatic frog shuts down it stomach acids forming an incubator and eats its eggs and 8 weeks later full grown frogs emerge from the mothers mouth. If she ate her eggs the first time with out having evolved the ability to turn off acid production she is extinct! If she had not done it before then how would evolution know she needed it??? Where did the information to evolve correctly come from???
That is just 2 frogs from a huge family of frogs and we are discovering more species all the time. Look at all the other animal traits out there!
Take the giraffe for instance. He has valving in his neck which helps pump blood up to his head but if he puts his head down to drink his arteries in his head should explode but they don't because the valves clamp down reducing the pressure. If just one little part of this system doesn't work he is extinct. In fact, he never would have evolved to that point. Explain to me exactly how millions of chemical reactions need to happen without added information to form all the unique properties in the animal kingdom as well as mankind.
Evolution is intentionally so fluid that the backers can modify it to encompose all kinds of things such as adaptation. If there was adaptation where are all the fossil records of the half formed rejects that that passed their genes on to a better generation? And if they are half formed how did they survive and why did natural selection allow them to even survive long enough to reproduce?
One of the ideas of evolution has been that the hammer,anvil, and stirrup bones moved from the jaw of reptiles into the ear channel of a human as we evolved. How did we survive so long with no hearing and likely no jaw! Thats a half formed fossil I would love to see!!!
The devil is in the details and when we really get down to the details we start understanding that evolution omits most of the details and simply can't explain them which makes it far from sound science. Its a religion!

this is all evidence that they will never listen to. maybe im to negative.
there a literally hundreds of examples like this. certain woods peckers form a glue on their tongue to capture insects and then a chemical reaction happens and dissolves the glue so the wood pecker can eat the insects. if the wood pecker evolve the ability to create the glue but obviously didn't evolve the ability to dissolve it yet, he would be stuck with insects on his tongue and would go extinct.




micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
No Norton, I don't mean that. I just want religious freedom without persecution from the state when kids are in school. Not sanctioned Jesus or Mohammed or Tosh.O time. Trust me, it will be way more uncomfortable to be a Christian kid in school in the coming years than any other religion. You seem to misunderstand my basic point.

Guys I gotta run. Have a good one. Here's what I'm into for the next couple hours. By the way, not breaking any HIPPA rules or regs here, this patient gave me permission, I own the photo and it does not have his/her name on it nor are there any identifying structures.

Your homework for the next couple hours....give me some up to date persuasive lit on evolution that shores up change between species. And/or read the book of Romans from the new testament and be ready to discuss.

Adios.

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
So at the risk of you thinking I'm a bigger wacko than you probably already do... Yeah, I'm cool with believing that all species have been intact from the beginning.

Hey micronut, have you ever owned a dog?

micronut

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
yeah...and he was never a squirrel. ok. really...gotta run.

Micronut,

Out.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
But he was descended from wolves, a different species of animal, perverted by mankind and evolved very quickly into the many shapes and sizes we have today. I bet there's tons of creationists who own dogs and don't even realize the implications of what I just said..

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
I think it's perfectly fair actually. If you claim to be Christain then we can assume many things about you.

Because all Christians are exactly the same. Just like all Supertopoans are the same.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
They would or force me to become a Republican and then shoot anything that looks, talks or prays as a Muslim.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Evolution: Micro...yes. Undeniable and a beautiful thing. Macro....between species. I know for a fact you can't prove this one, you're gonna need to show me the "jump."
Evolution resulted in BRANCHING of species. I'm not sure what you mean by "between species".
Evolution of branching species is well proven. Just one Wikipedia link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae
Carnivorans evolved from miacoids about 55 million years ago (Mya) during the late Paleocene.[4] Then, about 50 Mya, the carnivorans split into two main divisions: caniforms (dog-like) and feliforms (cat-like). By 40 Mya, the first clearly identifiable member of the dog family, Canidae, had arisen. Called Prohesperocyon wilsoni, it was found in what is now southwestern Texas.

Even dogs and cats evolved from common ancestors.

Of course one could still believe that the Bible, a compilation of legends and stories over a period of 500 years or so and finally compiled 1700 years ago takes precedence over modern scientific fact and proof.
Or believe that Earth, Air, Fire and Water are the elemental building blocks of the Universe.
Or believe the Earth is the center of the Universe.
Or that God created the Earth in 6 days and then took a day off to have a beer, barbecue some ribs (not Adam's I hope) and enjoy the view of His Creation.

Can't have it both ways. Can't believe that all matter we know of is made of 98 naturally occurring elements; that the precise metallurgy of your surgical tools is well understood; and also not believe in the evolution of species. Evolution is now as well established scientifically as Mendeleev's table of elements, created ten years after (1869) Darwin wrote Origin Of The Species (1859).
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
I always assumed that the differences between the major religions were cultural adaptations to teach a similar moral code through fables.

No?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
I always assumed that the differences between the major religions were cultural adaptations to teach a similar moral code through fables.
Ascribing motives to ancient writers is pretty dicey stuff.
I think they really believed these stories. I think they created these stories to explain natural phenomena and human behavior they could not otherwise understand.
Or also, in many cases, to control those whom they could convince to believe in the tales.
I do believe man's Search For Understanding is one of those mental exercises that separates us from all the other animals.
Although I'll have to admit, my dog and I haven't had that particular philosophical discussion yet. Sometimes he seems VERY interested in figuring out who belongs to the latest unusual scent.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
ANYONE with more than a 3rd grade edu is LYING if they claim belief In a 6000 year old earth
You're crediting them with more intelligence than I would.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
There is no middle ground. They're liars.

What is it that they are lying about? Are you saying that their claims of belief are just things that they say but are not true? That's giving them way more credit than they deserve.

People believe weirder stuff than a 6000 year old Earth. How about them scientologists?

Dave
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
I think, and this is just my speculation, that religion was a development and invention by men to control other men. It was added too and redefined over the ages, inconsistency removed or the whole thing changed to suit current events and suit the leaders of the time. In order for religion to exist we need a few things 1st...

1 - Faith
If a village teaches their children not to go into the dark woods because there's monsters, then their children may not be eaten by tigers as much. If another village does the same but their people lack the ability to believe in anything they cannot see, they will die off, while the village that is able to believe in something without seeing it (faith) will survive. This means those people who had dogma or beliefs survived while those who did not lost more lives or even died off. So the ability to have faith, was a beneficial trait at some point in our history. It simply had to be.

2 - Grief
Not many animals on this planet grief their dead, but we are one of them. I think it's due to intelligence, all the animals that do grief are highly intelligent and able to think about what happens after we die. Grief and faith are somewhat linked (see above entry). Without ever having the capacity for grief we would never fear death or ask the question "what happens after we die?". And of course, a question that is never asked, never needs an answer.

3 - Hope
When the rain didn't fall, the crops failed, and when the crops failed, people died. Have you ever counted the number of churches along Hwy120 in the agricultural center of the state? (it's on the way into Yosemite) Is it any surprise to you that rural farming communities have an abundance of churches (per capita) than, dare I say, the more advanced, intelligent and easier lifestyles of larger cities? Food for thought, eh.

There's a lot more to it and I am by no means an expert, but I like to use these three things to show how evolution actually explains why we have religion and why it is still around. I would love it is someone else more educated on the subject would share, this is just my speculation.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
Dingus is giving not just them (fundies), but humans in general, way too much credit. In fact we might want him to stick to what he believes, no need to depress people and spread more grief. Like don't click this if you want to retain any faith in American intelligence: http://creationmuseum.org/whats-here/exhibits/planetarium/?utm_source=creation-museum-creation-evolution&utm_medium=Banner&utm_campaign=fires-in-the-sky
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
Why should we think any religion was started with pure motives

Not sure, I hadn't really thought about it that way.

I'd just always assumed that religion was created with the best of intentions and corrupted by opportunists after the fact.

But, I'm no scholar.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Why should we think any religion was started with pure motives?

I explained above. Originally it may have been created to keep people alive. I would call that a pure motive. But once it was recognized as a way to own women, conquer your neighbor or silence your opposition, all bets were off and the human animal had a new tool for oppression and destruction. Why it's still here in light of our vast collective knowledge is the real question plaguing us.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
I think Squishy and I are on the same page here.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
The Book of Mormon states that Negroes are the marked descendants of Ham.


Pardon me, High Traverse, this statement is incorrect...

The Book of Mormon does not mention "Negroes" by any specific designation...nor does it cite Ham, his descendants or the "Curse of Ham". Perhaps you read this in one of the pervasive anti-mormon publications...and didn't question it.

Some of these volumes addle the BOM's narration of the curse upon the "Lamanites" with Black people of African descent. That is simply not authentic..."Negroes", "Canaanites", "Hamites" are missing from the Book of Mormon.

Pronouncements about Blacks vis a vis being denied the priesthood came from Brigham Young not the Book of Mormon. (Joseph Smith had ordained three black men to the priesthood)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
It can be argued that the mark of the fool is he who argues against religion by bombarding the mileau with facts and figures "disproving" the verity of spiritual concerns. Likewise, the religio who insists that the gold standard of his faith rests on Jesus walking on water, the Tower of Bable being an actual structure in space and time, and that Brother Jonah actually spent time in a whale's tripe - and lived to tell about it.

Both camps are aiming at the wrong target. Entirely.

JL
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
I think that Largo and I are on the same page, as well
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
I think they really believed these stories. I think they created these stories to explain natural phenomena and human behavior they could not otherwise understand.
Or also, in many cases, to control those whom they could convince to believe in the tales.

Rethinking my earlier post. Perhaps the difference here is Old Testament fantasies (ancient stuff) vs New Testament mind control (well after scientific thought and experiment had developed)
The astronomer Aristarchus of Samos was the first known person to propose a heliocentric model of the solar system, while the geographer Eratosthenes accurately calculated the circumference of the Earth. Hipparchus (c. 190 – c. 120 BC) produced the first systematic star catalog. The level of achievement in Hellenistic astronomy and engineering is impressively shown by the Antikythera mechanism (150-100 BC), an analog computer for calculating the position of planets. Technological artifacts of similar complexity did not reappear until the 14th century, when mechanical astronomical clocks appeared in Europe.[25]
In medicine, Hippocrates (c. 460 BC – c. 370 BC) and his followers were the first to describe many diseases and medical conditions and developed the Hippocratic Oath for physicians, still relevant and in use today. Herophilos (335–280 BC) was the first to base his conclusions on dissection of the human body and to describe the nervous system. Galen (129 – c. 200 AD) performed many audacious operations—including brain and eye surgeries— that were not tried again for almost two millennia.

Yet Galileo was persecuted for showing the sun was the center of the solar system
Galileo's championing of heliocentrism was controversial within his lifetime... The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, and they concluded that it could be supported as only a possibility, not an established fact.[9][10] Galileo later defended his views in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which appeared to attack Pope Urban VIII and thus alienated him and the Jesuits, who had both supported Galileo up until this point.[9] He was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.
and witches were burned in Massachusetts.
Be very careful to oppose or criticize the dominant orthodoxy!
Those religious fundamentalists will strike back.

and NO, Einstein did not believe in god.
Einstein replied on 24 March 1954:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[8]
Eric Gutkind sent a copy of his book "Choose Life: The Biblical Call To Revolt"[10] to Einstein in 1954. Einstein sent Gutkind a letter in response and wrote, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

Although he expressed various thoughts on religion, including praise of deism, Thomas Jefferson was certainly not a Christian:
In a letter to Adams (April 11, 1823), Jefferson wrote, “And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter.”

which puts into perspective Jefferson's argument for what the First Amendment really means:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
Or in other words, it is to our peril when the Government takes ANY position on religion, for or against.
So keep your religion out of my schools and I'll respect your right to believe in your religion. As long as your religion respects all people's rights.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Jennie
I knew that would get your attention although my error was accidental.
I stand corrected, in fact it was Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith. So did BY have a Revelation?

On the Mormon doctrine regarding "negroes" I refer you to Elder Bruce R McConkie, "Mormon Doctrine" 1966:
Of the two-thirds who followed Christ, however, some were more valiant than others ....Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Moses 5:16-41; 12:22). Noah's son Ham married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood (Abraham 1:20-27). Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27.) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them (Moses 7:8, 12, 22), although sometimes negroes search out the truth, join the Church, and become by righteous living heirs of the celestial kingdom of heaven.

And First President (El Jefe) George Albert Smith in 1949
The attitude of the Church with reference to the Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: "Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to."
underlines are mine.
The orthodoxy is plain and clear.

Of course your sources may differ.

As I said earlier, I've had many Mormon friends, and many of those I respect intellectually and morally. However, when held up to Inquisition, I suppose most of them will be branded Jack Mormons. Perhaps with JM on their foreheads?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
why was it, the reason, for Young's official rejection of black people as unsuitable
for Priesthood for such a long period?


Just my opinion, Norton, and having no doctrinal root, I think there was apprehension that bringing America's civil rights turmoil into the church would precipitate contention within the church. And, of course, Mormons were not unclouded relative to the country's feelings about interracial marriage. (Only male priesthood holders were eligible for eternal marriage in the temple...regular LDS church weddings are "till death do us part")

Blacks were promised the priesthhood at a future date (unspecific) but were not given it until 1978...

Of course, Protestants, in pointing fingers at the LDS for its racial bias, are whistling past the graveyard of their own bigotry and partiality. The tradition that Blacks were the "seed of Cain", the descendants of Ham, and cursed, was preached by most Protestant churches as a justification for slavery, many years before the LDS church came to be.

Those concepts were prevalent long before Joseph Smith or Brigham Young.

Brigham, having been a devout Methodist with several Methodist clergy in his family, may have brought these beliefs with him, when he converted. (Although the Methodists were not the most virulent of churches in propounding this doctrine)
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
Is bacon what lures good people to the Curse of Ham damnation ?


Perhaps it's the nitrites in Ham, Jim...

:-)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
I really didn't mean my comments to turn into a rant on Mormonism.

I can separate what I feel about people I know from their religious beliefs. I can even appreciate their beliefs without believing in them myself.

My Great Objection is to sects of any religion when they
1: discriminate against race, sex or sexual identification.
2: try to get their religious beliefs taught in public school. I'm fine with students learning about the history and beliefs of all religions, without prejudice.
3: try to substitute their superstitions and prejudices for fact and judgement in politics and government.
4: they use their religious beliefs to get out of the draft: Mormons on missions in the Vietnam war (my non-Mormon friends, not on missions, went in their place) and Orthodox Jews in Israel today.
5: try to proselytize me.
6: believe I'm morally corrupt or repugnant because I'm atheist.

and plenty of "christians" fall into categories 1, 2, 3 and 6.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
It is an easy mark to disabuse religion, especially Christianity, on the grounds of it serving up an antiquated cosmology, or haveing it's fact wrong, or insisting that a moral metaphor is not historical fact - which is the equal of kicking a dead dog.

The serious work in not in fobbing off asperisions at these silly and superficial issues, but sitting down for a few hours, reading something like Song of Songs, and reporting back you take on the chapter in terms of being a living, feeling human being.

That's the heavy lifting right there, not letting the air out of old myths on the grounds of "scientific evidence" to the contrary.

JL
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Protestants, in pointing fingers at the LDS for its racial bias, are whistling past the graveyard of their own bigotry and partiality
aww c'mon Jennie
By the time the Mormon Church allowed "blacks" into the Priesthood in 1978, thousands of Protestants (and Jews (including a good friend) and Catholics) had marched, been hosed, tear gassed, jailed, and at least nine non-black killed, in the civil rights protests in the South.
I never knew any Mormons who went (I'm sure there were some).
It took the First Presidency about a dozen years more to wake up and smell the discrimination.

I'm sure not cutting the white supremacist "christians" in the 20th century South any slack.
If you want to go back far enough, the Catholic Priests in the genocides in the Americas, nor the Inquisition, expulsion of the Muslims from Spain etc.

I've got great respect for Islam as a religion and moral framework, yet the Islamic Fundamentalists are abhorrent. Every religion has had it's fanatical, murderous time.
The Mormon religion not so much, partly because of their Very Short History. It was a non-Mormon mob who shot Joseph and Hyrum Smith.
Let's not forget most of the animosity towards the Mormons was a result of their plural marriages, often to very young girls from non-Mormon families. Pissed off a Lot of people. Not to excuse murder.
So which was it? Did God (or Whomever) write in the Golden Tablets that Mormons should practice plural marriage, or was JS just a lecher?
Did God deliver Brigham Young a revelation to discriminate against blacks, or was it his own racial prejudice? It appears He sent First President Kimball a revelation in 1978 that blacks could attain the Priesthood anyway.
Did God deliver a Revelation to First President Woodruff in 1890 or did he abolish polygamy in order to join the United States?
The final element in President Woodruff's revelatory experience came on the evening of September 23, 1890. The following morning, he reported to some of the General Authorities that he had struggled throughout the night with the Lord regarding the path that should be pursued. The result was a 510-word handwritten manuscript which stated his intentions to comply with the law and denied that the church continued to solemnize or condone plural marriages. The document was later edited by George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency and others to its present 356 words. On October 6, 1890, it was presented to the Latter-day Saints at the General Conference and approved.
Either way doesn't look too good.

Anyway, the black people who were interested in the Mormon religion had an informed choice, as long as they didn't want full participation.

Not so much informed choice for the young girls drawn into plural marriages around Nauvoo.
Nor the 14 year old who married the polygamist I know and gave birth when she was only a few months past 14 (do the math).
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
On the Mormon doctrine regarding "negroes" I refer you to Elder Bruce R McConkie, "Mormon Doctrine" 1966:


Bruce R McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine has been repudiated by the church. He was never endorsed or sanctioned by the church to write it...and when it came out in the 1950's, the president, David O McKay found over 1500 doctrinal errors in the work.

The president is said to have asked Mr McConkie not to go through with another printing.

Nevertheless, the work did find a fairly large readership.

Much of the criticism of Mc Conkie, among church leaders, was in regard to his writings about Blacks and the priesthood and his demonization of the Roman Catholic Church.

McConkie did eventually apologize for his writings, after the priesthood ban was lifted. The book does have some value among collectors, although it's not rare. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism is the standard...although not published by the church, it's considered a much more accurate delineation of LDS doctrine and history.



The orthodoxy is plain and clear.


I agree, High Traverse ...there wasn't any question that the church DID withold the priesthood from Blacks of African descent.

But orthdoxy as to WHY Blacks were forbidden the priesthood was definitely lacking, especially with regard to Joseph Smith having ordained three black men

And if tabgible WHYS are lacking...some will insert folk doctrines and folk tales from the 1700's to rationalize it.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
The serious work in not in fobbing off asperisions at these silly and superficial issues, but sitting down for a few hours, reading something like Song of Songs, and reporting back you take on the chapter in terms of being a living, feeling human being.

Lots of great art has had its origins in religious tradition. And lots hasn't. But no one ever used Shakespeare, Coltrane, or Maxfield Parrish to impose codes of behavior or arbitrary moral standards on their neighbors. So taking what one likes from any particular faith is fine for the dilettante; it's the rest of the baggage that attaches to the true believers that becomes problematic in any multicultural setting.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
Regarding Bruce McConkie
Come ON Jennie!
He wrote Mormon Doctrine in 1958 and was appointed to the Quorum Of The Twelve Apostles in 1972, serving until his death in 1985. He clearly wrote with the full approval of the Mormon First Presidency.
In fact he was unrepentant in 1978 after the Revelation.
Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June 1978. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles.[5
Now the blacks were fully fair game and let's get on with converting them with a better promise than before.

McConkie on Jews:
Let this fact be engraved in the eternal records with a pen of steel: the Jews were cursed, and smitten, and cursed anew, because they rejected the gospel, cast out their Messiah, and crucified their King……
Let the spiritually illiterate suppose what they may, it was the Jewish denial and rejection of the Holy One of Israel, whom their fathers worshiped in the beauty of holiness, that has made them a hiss and a byword in all nations and that has taken millions of their fair sons and daughters to untimely graves.
He Really Believed this stuff and yet remained on the Quorum of 12.

SO The Presidency (Quorum of 12) later became embarrassed by McConkie's discrimination against blacks and Jews (was it because by 1978 they were really getting the going over from the rest of this nation?) and tried to clean up the bad PR by "casting him out".
How noble, how convenient. But they didn't do even that before he died.
McConkie served in the capacity of an Apostle until his death at age 69 in 1985

now I'm really really done with this thread.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
The First A.M.E. Church in L.A. has no white people in their congregation, as of just last Sunday. They got freedom of association, the same as everyone else, so they can run things the way they want.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Kindness, culture, to name two things.

One more thing, their "bible" also says to kill all the infadels that don't believe in Mohammed.

 So does yours goofy…. Deuteronomy 17 - Did you not pay attention to your book at all, or are you the pick'n'choose type christians. (this is not to mention all the other folk the bible finds it ok to stone to death at the gates of the cities… fail)


This is taught to ALL Muslims. Just because they all don't take up this action doesn't mean that this sentiment isn't in their hearts and minds.

 Same could be said for you and yours…. Kettle - Pot - pot - kettle.. There really is no difference between your statements toward the Muslims….. and… here…. "This is taught to ALL christians. Just because they all don't take up this action doesn't mean that this sentiment isn't in their hearts and minds."… see what I mean? oh, that's right… your christian.. you don't see my point…


I don't want to start gett'in down on religions that are not christian.. Wait a minute, yes I do.
To non- religious people looking in. You'll often hear from them that Christians think their better than everyone else because they're always Preach'in a better way. And they are the ONLY true church and all others are wrong. So depending on how the Christian shares this
"Good News", he can either come off as a humble servant, or an egotistical bastard.

 True, true.. I'm listening'…. they do tend to be blow-hard ego trip in' bastards….


So what's wrong with trying to share with ur brothers and sisters The God of Love and that He has a plan for your life.

And if you investigate into all the different religions you'll quickly see that they can't all be right.
They all have Jesus wrapped up in their story's. And once you get drawn in by Him it's entirely
up to you to continue and grow in a relationship with HIM! If the "religion" you are connected to isn't helping you to grow closer to HIM everyday. Then you might not belong to the "right" religion.

 What a total crock o'shite!!!! First off, you can keep thy religion to thy self, nothing wrong with that either….

If you don't feel closer to your imaginary friend, maybe your doing it wrong? Really? That's your hook. If you're not closer, its your fault… Or could it be maybe there's no god there to begin with?

Second, there is no reason to believe in a god from the git, nor him as son or as ghost. As it is all imaginary. I couldn't care less about how old your personal belief system is. What if they had it wrong back when it was all supposedly 'revealed' to 'them' (whoever "they" are). You think that because it happened so long ago that they were somehow better, more equipped to handle the rigors of desert dwelling, more pure, even though they had intoxicants back then… as f*#king if.

Pull your head out your azz BB. You're pathological in your hypocrisies "you'll quickly see that they can't all be right." - I just took my investigation one good further and never believed in any… They are all made up



YET ANOTHER REASON TO HATE CHRISTIANITY SO MUCH!!!
Gene

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
Many of you confuse faith and religion.

g
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
George Carlin. Loved that man's persnickity attitude.

Last night and today I have been watching the History Channel's production of Hatfields and McCoys. In this war, there are atrocities and murders and lies, as in all wars. The McCoy's patriarch is a bible-quoting backwoodsman who is in the long run leading his people to disaster by ceaseless prayer, and his wife calls him on it. Doesn't change anything.

The role of religion in affairs like this cannot be ignored. It is magnified by history, whereas at the time of conflict, it is "God's will," especially when someone asks why a certain unpleasantness happened. Well, this doesn't seem to sit well at all with me. I have a personal relationship with a being (fantasy or fact, I don't care--I get comfort from thinking this way) but I don't blame fails or trouble on him, as I know well a concatenation of events and thoughts led up to the problem, all of which are of human, not divine, origin.

Here, then, is where reason rules. In your heart, you "see" the real path that you followed to get there to that trouble, conflict, or lawsuit, whatever. To take it upon oneself and one's kin and neighbors to redress a perceived wrong is not reasonable, it's lying.

Vendetta is an institution in Italy, or Sicily, to be more exact. The Muslims' leaders pronounce fatwah on someone, and the Pope will excommunicate as needed, and used Crusade as a tool to increase the Church's sway. Let's face it, Christianity's no different in this respect, that God's will is plenty good enough reason for doing stuff to others. It's an excuse, nothing more, for highly questionable actions. Motives. You got to watch the leaders and avoid the parking meters.

Divine sanction is BS. Seeking comfort is not.
dougs510

Social climber
down south
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
I love it!! It makes my life so much better :)
Gene

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
gene, my guess is that religion is the ritual ceremony that goes hand in hand with faith?


Not even close.

g
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
Come ON Jennie!

He wrote Mormon Doctrine in 1958 and was appointed to the Quorum
Of The Twelve Apostles in 1972, serving until his death in 1985.
He clearly wrote with the full approval of the Mormon First
Presidency.


Full approval, High Traverse?

Why was Mormon Doctrine criticized by the Church President, David O McKay if Mr McConkie
had "full approval" of church leaders?

Why did members of the Quorume Twelve, such as Mark E. Peterson and Marion Romney cast aspersions
on the volume?.

Why did the church leadership forbid church adjunct printer Deseret from reprinting the book
until McConkie made desirable changes?

And why did Mc Conkie succumb to pressure from church leadership and revise the book (1966)
...if he indeed had "full approval"for his first edition?

Mormon Doctrine is not and never has been sanctioned, by the LDS church, as church canon.
The fact that Elder Mc Conkie was a member of the twelve doesn't ratify his work as approved LDS
church doctrine.

Most of the apostles write books... offering a variety ideas and opinions...and some don't agree.
Every page by every apostle cannot be assumed as church doctrine except
where they recite certified doctrine.

Much of McConkie's writings concerning the Negro/priesthood issue
were opinion and most members perceived them as such...






In fact he was unrepentant in 1978 after the Revelation.


"Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young
or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary
to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding
and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the
world.

It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said
about the Negro matter before the first day of June 1978. It is
a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the
revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject.
As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the
past, we forget about them."



...sounds rather penitent and reforming to me, High Traverse. Of course, you
are fully allowed your opinion on what is and is not repentant.

Generally, the LDS accept contrition and acknowlegement of
error as repentant... minus the wearing of sackcloth and ashes.



Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
All gods are real when enough people believe in the common image.

When few believe - gods cease to be.

Zeus, Wankan Tanka, Ra, Yahweh. All were real at one time in human history yet I defy you to find their presence in today's world.

Which begs the question - is "god" a human construct?

We are an imaginative lot after all....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Ha, how pertinent,
was just watching Cloud Minders (a Star Trek classic) where this girl, Droxine is her name...
says to her father, challenging him (that's him on the right)...
"Father, are we so sure of our methods that we never question what we do?"
Of course this totally made me think of a child asking go-B, Micronut, Splitter or Klimmer the awfully similar question...
"Father, are we so sure of our beliefs that we never question our religious practices?"
Of course there's no answer, only a redirect.

.....

Ricky D,
Zeus, Wankan Tanka, Ra, Yahweh. All were real at one time in human history yet I defy you to find their presence in today's world.
What? Yahweh, aka The God of Moses, the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims, is alive and well in the hearts and minds of billions. Better double check your work. That's precisely the God (concept) of the West that's still causing so much trouble even in the 21st century.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Prayer in Schools. All kids of all religions should be allowed to pray in schools at any time and this shouldn't bug you much since it seems Christian prayer in schools is on the way out.



When I say "prayer in schools" I mean allowing a kid to pray on his own time according to his own god without fear of persecution by the school system. Thats all.

Perfect example of shifting your doctrine, when you get called on what you are doing.

The fact is, that no child is going to be punished for praying while a school shooting is going on, or when getting word that their parent died.

But you aren't talking about that. You are talking about the NEED for prayer, publically, when there is no particular need.

Do you really advocate that if you don't pray every hour, God abandons you?
Why not every minute? Why not do no other activity?

The fact is that school prayer is NOT about children needing to save their souls. It is about doing so publically so as to attract non-believers. IT IS A MARKETING GIMMICK.

I have no doubt of John's devout belief. I doubt that he ends every meeting with a client by telling them "well, now we have to pray to God, so that we have him on our side"......and have his clients go running, screaming from the consult room.

Children can pray as much as they want, silently, at any time. What you want is for them to do so LOUDLY, PUBLICALLY, to recruit others.

It is this lack of honesty that is so nauseating.

It is just the same as when posting: "Honest Question"----which means that everything else posted was NOT honest. It exposes the fakery.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
A more accurate answer for many Christians would be: "I choose to believe in the creation story, even though there is no scientific basis to support it, because of my faith. Evolution is the best scientific explanation. But on this topic, religion is more important to me than the pursuit of knowledge based on scientific methods."

But for many mainstream American Christians, the answer is not so straightforward, or even honest. It's more of a bunch of doublespeak, pseudo-science, and verbal gymnastics that attempt to reverse the burden or proof through flawed logic.

If Christian organizations in America continue to attempt to counter the scientific model of evolution with biblical pseudo-science, they will continue to lose credibility. That's a shame, because Christianity does bring many positives, but they are being lost in debates about people riding dinosaurs.



Even more interesting is that the Pope, leader of the largest Christian sect in the world, accepts evolution.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Cintune, a dilettante is "a person who claims an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge."

That's largely how I see those of us teeing off on religion here on the basis that a "grandpappy in the sky" God is bogus and crimes against humanity have been perpetrated on us all in His name.

No doubt, some wish to simplify all spiritual concerns to kindergarden, Bible school theology, and to admonish that realm harshly - I don't blame anyone for doing so, though this reflects, at best, a cursory look and understanding of religious matters. It also assumes that things seemingly dead obvious to us - the sketchy reality of an anthromorphically conceived "God," virgin births, wonky miracles, etc. - are totally lost on every believer, and that mythology comprises the living heart of the whole shebang.

Such an attitude, or more accurately, such a belief is the very stuff of the dilettante, who feigns interest, while showing "no real commitment or knowledge" to the very issues he so glibly dismisses.

Anyone feeling these cursory dismissals are the soul-level work of truth-seekers and rational-minded men are every bit as accomplished the posers as those insisting the rest of us will burn in hell lest we follow thier lead, as ordained in the Good Book.

Most of these arguments are not reflective of any serious comittment to the subject nor yet show much knowledge. They are thinly veiled rants - which makes us feel powerful, but adds nothing to the size of our being or the beauty of our lives.

As they say, the wolfe in the henhouse makes a lot on noise, but he misses the owl looking down in the rafters.

JL
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Your homework for the next couple hours....give me some up to date persuasive lit on evolution that shores up change between species.

I have no idea what this sentence means. There is NO evolution "Between" species. That is a non-sensical statement.

You claim to be a scientist, but you don't use the precise language of science. Why is that?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
By the way, not breaking any HIPPA rules or regs here, this patient gave me permission, I own the photo and it does not have his/her name on it nor are there any identifying structures.


I SERIOUSLY doubt that the patient gave you permission to post the picture of them on an internet website, to entertain people....which is what you did. It was not part of any scientific or medical enterprise.

But what do you expect from Christians?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Come January , in these parts , burning in hell , sounds delightful...RJ
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Christopher Hitchens - "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
Why is it, that human beings cling to wish thinking? I find it far more interesting to ask, why do some of us seem to need faith, a religion, and some of us are fine without it.
TY
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:33am PT
The prophetic timeline is ticking down. When the proverbial bovine dung hits the fan and you are frightened out of your mind, then what will you do? I hope you know who to turn to. The very one you rile against, Yeshua HaMashiach.



Luke 21:8-18 (KJV)
[8] And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
[9] But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
[10] Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
[11] And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
[12] But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
[13] And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
[14] Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
[15] For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
[16] And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
[17] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
[18] But there shall not an hair of your head perish.



Your reality is going to be challenged and significantly altered ... what are you going to do? Who are you going to turn too?




Stereo pair panoramas:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630



The Massive Ark, or Mothership on the backside of the Moon is still there!
Many more official NASA images from AS15. So how many stereo-pairs can I make from all of these images? Lol.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1036.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1037.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1038.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1039.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1040.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1041.jpg

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1332.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1333.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1334.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1335.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1336.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1337.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1338.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1339.jpg
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:44am PT
I am dealing with an evil "Christian" right now. If he gets his way he's going to rip the very soul out of someone close to me, and take no responsibility for his actions because it's "gods will" f*#k that! Assuage your own guilt and shortcomings in some rational way, and leave innocent bystanders out of it!
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:12am PT
i watched the rev gene scott for 30 years, stayed up late taking notes, did not do a damn thing to me but i did see merle haggard do a few songs, and mr scotts wife right before he died was not hard on the eyes,

one thing that puzzles me is why do the jews always try to hump christian chicks?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 13, 2013 - 09:37am PT
Thank you Largo, you have a more grown-up way of saying it!



Cintune, a dilettante is "a person who claims an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge."

That's largely how I see those of us teeing off on religion here on the basis that a "grandpappy in the sky" God is bogus and crimes against humanity have been perpetrated on us all in His name.

No doubt, some wish to simplify all spiritual concerns to kindergarden, Bible school theology, and to admonish that realm harshly - I don't blame anyone for doing so, though this reflects, at best, a cursory look and understanding of religious matters. It also assumes that things seemingly dead obvious to us - the sketchy reality of an anthromorphically conceived "God," virgin births, wonky miracles, etc. - are totally lost on every believer, and that mythology comprises the living heart of the whole shebang.

Such an attitude, or more accurately, such a belief is the very stuff of the dilettante, who feigns interest, while showing "no real commitment or knowledge" to the very issues he so glibly dismisses.

Anyone feeling these cursory dismissals are the soul-level work of truth-seekers and rational-minded men are every bit as accomplished the posers as those insisting the rest of us will burn in hell lest we follow thier lead, as ordained in the Good Book.

Most of these arguments are not reflective of any serious comittment to the subject nor yet show much knowledge. They are thinly veiled rants - which makes us feel powerful, but adds nothing to the size of our being or the beauty of our lives.

As they say, the wolfe in the henhouse makes a lot on noise, but he misses the owl looking down in the rafters.

JL
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 13, 2013 - 09:39am PT
Thank you Largo, you had a grown-up way of saying it...

Ummmm, somebody got their story mixed up. Every point is the equivalent to the media's portrayal of climbing "how do they get the rope up there?"


Cintune, a dilettante is "a person who claims an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge."

That's largely how I see those of us teeing off on religion here on the basis that a "grandpappy in the sky" God is bogus and crimes against humanity have been perpetrated on us all in His name.

No doubt, some wish to simplify all spiritual concerns to kindergarden, Bible school theology, and to admonish that realm harshly - I don't blame anyone for doing so, though this reflects, at best, a cursory look and understanding of religious matters. It also assumes that things seemingly dead obvious to us - the sketchy reality of an anthromorphically conceived "God," virgin births, wonky miracles, etc. - are totally lost on every believer, and that mythology comprises the living heart of the whole shebang.

Such an attitude, or more accurately, such a belief is the very stuff of the dilettante, who feigns interest, while showing "no real commitment or knowledge" to the very issues he so glibly dismisses.

Anyone feeling these cursory dismissals are the soul-level work of truth-seekers and rational-minded men are every bit as accomplished the posers as those insisting the rest of us will burn in hell lest we follow thier lead, as ordained in the Good Book.

Most of these arguments are not reflective of any serious comittment to the subject nor yet show much knowledge. They are thinly veiled rants - which makes us feel powerful, but adds nothing to the size of our being or the beauty of our lives.

As they say, the wolfe in the henhouse makes a lot on noise, but he misses the owl looking down in the rafters.

JL
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:01am PT
I guess it provides some comfort when facing mortality.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:14am PT
As they say, the wolfe in the henhouse makes a lot on noise, but he misses the owl looking down in the rafters.

What? Did you just make that up? Can you provide a detailed exegesis, or is the meaning only clear to those with ears to hear (and maybe agendas to prop up)?

So far as Biblical literalism vs. The Deeper Issues™ goes, that's a pretty sharp ridge you're balancing on there. Watch out for the cornices.


Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:48am PT
Just a note on evolution here. The theory made a number of predictions which have been shown consistent with the observational data. Thus includes the fossil record.

In that record is extensive evidence for "macro" evolution.

Evolution is the foundation of biology.
WBraun

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:13am PT
They are thinly veiled rants - which makes us feel powerful

Ya godless stupid heathens yer all goin to hell!!!!

Just see how powerful I am after saying that!!!!!

Yo Ho mannn ....!!!!

:-)

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Blammo!
























Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
so much for thinly veiled...
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
I have no reason to veil my feelings on the matter..I have stated them very plainly a few pages back...religion is destructive and hinders human evolution, it supports and spreads ignorance like a disease and it's beliefs and policies are destructive to our species and the earth. It gives excuse for violence, child abuse, war and discrimination. And it's unreasonable, illogical, fantasy and simply false.

The repercussions of atheists being wrong is simply a few more people in hell. The repercussions of religions being wrong are already felt by the victims of it's wrath. Make no mistake about it, this is a war of ideology that means more to us and the planet than any subject that came before or after. Fence sitters, in this day and age are just as damning as those who swallow lies in the name of faith. "We cannot and will never know" is a lazy bullshit excuse for not doing your homework or realizing just how much we actually know and where science is headed. Do your homework, think critically for yourself and for GOD SAKE!! Pick a f'ing side. IMO there is no middle ground, just a pile of confused and lazy people stuck in the middle of a debate between reality and fantasy. It's actually very very simple.

And Largo, while I really appreciate your statement about reading text and "feeling" them instead of constantly scrutinizing them logically, I must admit to being beyond that. My favorite book of the bible is Ecclesiastes, my favorite overall religious text is the Te of Piglet. Notice I equate the two, and they are both fabulous works of art with positive messages, lessons and values that people can take with them. It still doesn't change the fact that one is using a childhood fiction and the other an adulthood fiction as a tool to spread it's message. My point is that it's all fiction and believers are f'ing insane for believing in any of it literally.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
To be fair Christian fundamentalism is far preferable to fundamentalism of many other religions, particulary Islam. Except, perhaps, for the Westboro church loonies, no Christians are proposing anything close to sharia.

However, Christian fundamentalism is a much bigger problem in this country, and they are not afraid to flex their political muscles. They have definitely set us back. If not hatred, resentment and frustration at them are certainly warranted.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Exactly dirtbag!

I can understand the resistance to resentment and hatred, who really wants to hate anything? To let their blood boil over in anger for any reason. But it happens. And this my friends, is worth getting your panties in a bunch about. Once you understand and transcend the true effects that all religions have had in hindering our progress and are continuing to do so, the sooner you will realize this is actually a war for our future, for our children. The people who embrace science will live, those who will not will die. The innovative and progressive thought of a people will strengthen it's economy, improve life and help heal the earth from those who believe it was just a stepping stone to something greater. Morals could be build on a foundation of truth, they would be logical and fair. We love to talk about freedom in this country but in effect none of us are truly free. As long as religion has one tiny ounce of influence in our lives, to our leaders, to our laws, we will forever remain slaves to it.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
Cintune. Exegesis is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially a religious text.

The problem that you and others are having with religious texts, is that you are attacking said texts, specifically the bible, at the level of a fundamantalist. A fundamentalist looks at the entire bible in terms of it all, every last word, being literally true. In this sense, the wonderful metaphors and symbolic language in which many of the verses are wrought are in your hands dumbed down to data streams that are "adult fictions," rather suave works of art, but not "true" in any legitimate or meaningful way. "Truth," in this sense, is quite naturally nothing more than historical or literal truth.

If this is your "exegesis" of the bible, it means that you are grasping after those bits and fragments of the text that you might interpret as being untrue in the literal sense, since literal truth is all you seem to vaule and perhaps all you grasp. For instance, Jesus did not actually rise from the dead in a literal sense, nor was he born of a virgin. Such things go against sceientific facts are are pure foolishness - right?

However, you are isolating out bits and freagments and not sinking your teeth into the meant and spuds of the text, which are found in pasages like Sermon on the Mount, and Song of Songs, which have nothing to do with literal data streams, nor are they mere "poetry" or adult "fictions."

The "owl" in the barnyard symbolically points to the transcdendental element, the "watcher" or omniscient element that is always lost on the person out to merely slay the fables at the surface level of literal truth. This is not serious work, though it has to be done. But serious guys like Karl Barth have done it with an eye for what IS true.

As mentioned earlier, if you want to wrestle this material at depth, put aside a few hours and read, say, Song of Songs, and see what happens. Or just continue ranting on how the text is "poor science" or adult "poetry."

Your call.

JL
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
squishy/dirtbag 2016

(that sounds funny, doesn't it?)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Dear Atheists,


When the signs of the times happen in full vigor, (they've begun already, we are in the time prior to "The Beginning of Sorrows." We aren't in full birth pains yet, but evil spirits influencing the world (Rev.6: 1-8), and the natural world that surrounds you groans and anticipates the return of Yeshua HaMashiach, and the 3rd Temple is built on Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and it dawns on you that G-d's word is true and it's all happening as HaShem said it would, (remember he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, he sees through all time). Hopefully you'll remember what he said, and what we shared with you as witnesses to the his truth.

I predict in the future many Atheists will become believers during that time. There are frightening times ahead. That's OK. HaShem doesn't want anyone to perish. He gives you chance, after chance, after chance to come to know him or return back to him. I say take it. He is merciful, forgiving, and very long suffering. So are all true believers.


Fourteen Signs Announcing Christ's Return
Roderick C. Meredith
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/node/278


CREATION AND THE SPIRIT GROANING
Earth Reading: Romans 8.18-25
http://seasonofcreation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/bible-studies-outback-sunday.pdf

Romans 8: 16-25 (KJV)
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.







And you can't put Einstein in the Atheist camp. All evidence points to the fact that he was a Deist rather than a Theist. He didn't believe in a personal G-d.




But Sir Isaac Newton and many more Fathers of Modern Science did indeed believe in a personal G-d and our savior Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach.

In fact most of Newton's writings were on Theology ...








I know the truth is hard to swallow sometimes. It radically alters your World-view and you don't like that. Yes, it can be very uncomfortable. But it can also save your life.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Damn** funny atheist posters.
If god has a sense of humor, she's laughing at them.

And really. WHO decided that the Christian god is a He?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Klimmer you seem like a nice guy but I really wish you weren't teaching kids science.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Yes, Largo, I own a dictionary and I know what words mean before I use them.

Thanks anyway.

What's interesting here is that your accusations of cherry-picking cut both ways.
Sure enough, the Song of Songs, Sermon on the Mount, and a few other things contain deep insight and meaning re: the human experience.
As do portions of most all religious documents.
So we have the option of Jeffersonizing the texts to cull out those elements, dilettante-style, and
allowing ourselves the freedom of throwing out the bigoted, hateful, or just plain wrong stuff.
Or we can look at the whole of the dogma and weigh the signal to noise.
Then, if we're feeling cocky, we can pass judgement: this is mostly good,
or this is mostly shite. Except for the parts I like.

And the owl in the henhouse thing still needs work, sorry.
How did the owl get there? Is there a hole in the roof or did the farmer leave the door open?
Isn't the owl a predator too? And isn't it the chickens, not the wolf, who are making all the noise?
So many questions.

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
I sense an expectation so I have to ask, what would you assume I should gleam from Song of Songs?

And why would I put more or less emphasis on that bible verse over works of fiction and art which is trying to pass a message?

I find truth and fiction in all religious texts, I also find truth and fiction in Star Wars.

Thing is, published scientific data and findings, lacks the fiction part. It actually makes a considerable effort to remove bias, opinion and falsehoods. It's a level playing field and it also addresses the very same issues and ideas. Why would I ever go to a work of fiction when I have the real deal, whether it has answered the question or not?


Here is the giant glaring difference between me and others, and it's highlighted in my last sentence.

I am perfectly fine with not knowing all the answers, I do not need fiction to fill the gaps. If I read a scientific jounal on a subject I will learn what there is to know, I may not get my answer, but I will reach the limit of our knowledge. To go beyond that and create fiction or untested theories would be called what?

While many in this world, need an answer and they simply cannot live without one. If I have a question, like "what is the origin of historiography and the history of the study of history" I can actually find a book on it. In that book will be the history of the study, and it will pose several theories. It lacked a conclusion entirely and it was extremely fascinating, leading me to more questions and a whole new way to view anything that has ever been written down in the past. Not to mention, even the concept of history as acts in the past is infantile next to the age of mankind. Do I need poetry and art to find a subject beautiful and engaging? Nope. Do I need a conclusion, a statement of fact to feel fulfilled? Nope. So why would I ever bother reading something I know to be fiction for a purpose other than wasting time and finding entertainment? Especially one that tells me that I am a horrible sinner and I need to do everything it says or fear the wrath of my infallible ruler from the heavens.


The good news is that, anthropologically speaking, we are nearing the end of religion. There's only one god left (monotheism). Previous incarnations of religion had many gods, then they just had a few, then two, then one...it's only logical that we will someday have none...
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Oh, and I harbor no ill will toward anyone here, believer or not. While I am stating things like "your insane", they are generalizations about the population of believers as a whole. Please feel free to treat me in kind.

I find this discussion to not only be important and fascinating, but also highly enjoyable. Not all of my passion for the subject is negative, I am simply excited to match wits with those intelligent enough to do so, and we have some great minds around here, from both sides of the debate..
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Nice work Squishy! I should have had the faith that you had it in you!

You still climbing?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
The good news is that, anthropologically speaking, we are nearing the end of religion. There's only one god left (monotheism). Previous incarnations of religion had many gods, then they just had a few, then two, then one...it's only logical that we will someday have none...


Squishy,


You're reasoning is very squishy. Take a world Religion Class at the University. There are many faiths throughout the World and many gods, spelled with a little g, even now.

So how do you sort it all out? Who is the true G-d? Well, answer this question: Which G-d tells the truth and what he says happens, happens exactly as he said it would, and comes true time and time and time again?

Answer: There is only one G-d, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the G-d of and Judeo-Christian (Messianic Judaism) faith.

There's only one Book out there that explains it all, The Holy Bible. You have to read both the OT and the NT. They go hand in glove. You can't understand one without the other. There is only one true G-d, HaShem Adonai Elohim.

But there are many lesser gods, false gods in masquerade, who are really "the Fallen Angels." It's their purpose to divide, corrupt, lie, deceive, mislead, fool, and pull away from HaShem all mankind. There is a spiritual battle being waged behind the scenes for the soul of mankind. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood ...

Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.



Read up. Check out Dr. Michael Heiser's website:

The Divine Council
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/




rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously."

Neither can a lot of rock climbers according to the number of atheist-like posts that show up in this forum.

I think that Christians are the target of attack because they are the #1 religion in the US and also because Christians seems to act as if older or alternative religious views are silly while their own mythology makes perfect sense. If we knew more about how the Romans made fun of the Greeks for their religion, we would be condemning them for their hypocrisy too.

Dave
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:13pm PT

That should surprise no one, particularly those who know orthodox Christian doctrine. The message of Christianity has an inherent appeal to the humble, and an inherent repulsion to the proud. If self-pride and measured intelligence correlate positively, I would expect to find those with higher measured intelligence less likely to be attracted to a doctrine that says God exceeds humankind, and that no human has done anything deserving of an eternal -- or even temporary -- existence with God.

Carry on.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
I think that Christians are the target of attack because they are the #1 religion in the US and also because Christians seems to act as if older or alternative religious views are silly while their own mythology makes perfect sense. If we knew more about how the Romans made fun of the Greeks for their religion, we would be condemning them for their hypocrisy too.

Dave

Ironically, Dave, the Romans vilified the Christians because, to the Romans, Christians were atheists, i.e. they did not believe in the gods.

John
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
dirtbag
Christian fundamentalism is far preferable to fundamentalism of many other religions, particulary Islam. Except, perhaps, for the Westboro church loonies, no Christians are proposing anything close to sharia.
quite true.

Here's an historical perspective reduced to a trivial argument. Possibly even reductio ad absurdum
Muhammed died in 632 CE, ergo Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity.
What was Christianity like in the 1500-1600's? Splitting between Catholic and Protestant, at war with each other in England, France, Holland, etc. Massive destruction and death.
Spanish Inquisition, expulsion of Moors from Spain.
Christian eradication of non-believing Native Americans throughout the two continents.

As seen from a rather trivial historical timeline, Islam is right on track with Christianity in its development.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Klimmer
NO, Einstein did NOT believe in god in later years. Your quote is from 1929. Einstein wrote on 24 March 1954:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[8]
Eric Gutkind sent a copy of his book "Choose Life: The Biblical Call To Revolt"[10] to Einstein in 1954. Einstein sent Gutkind a letter in response and wrote, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
By 1954, 25 years after your quotation, he was in no way a deist.
You're a science teacher? Please get your facts straight.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
If I call myself a "believer," a "Christian," or a "Messianic Jew," and yet I hate my neighbor, and show not Charity, G-d's love, Agape, then am I really a believer? (1st Corinthians 13)

Yeshua HaMashiach said, ...


Matthew 7:15-16(NKJV)
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

You can not lay at Yeshua's feet all the crimes of humanity that have been done in his name. He will tell them, "Depart from me for I never knew you."

Lucifer loves to get into the truth and divide and conquer and pull all of Christendom down, and then do all sorts of crimes in Jesus's name to pull down the truth. He does a good lob of this.

The Nazis wore crosses. Hitler was brought up as a devout Catholic, and his parents were devout Catholics. Did Hitler and the Nazis have anything to do with the love and truth of Yeshua HaMashiach, Adonai?

NO, they didn't.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
Alright fine, ya got me there Norton. The last believer who replied (whos content is not worth considering) failed to even read my past posts, it could be assumed the hole thread as well. A very telling characteristic of believers is lack of research..
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
an inherent repulsion to the proud.
Not so much. Plenty of egotistical fundamentalist preachers.

out of context
……. no human has done anything deserving of an eternal -- or even temporary -- existence with God.
ain't that the truth!

note on Buddhism. Distilled to its essence:
"To avoid all evil
To do good.
To purify one's mind.
This is the teaching of all the Buddhas."
--Dhammapāda, XIV, 5

Not even a Buddha is a god, simply an Enlightened One.
go to Heaven? some kind of existence with God? What silly notions! How presumptuous!

and now it's time for me to assume the cloak of humility, purify my mind, avoid evil and stop posting to this thread.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
And the owl in the henhouse thing still needs work, sorry.
How did the owl get there? Is there a hole in the roof or did the farmer leave the door open? Isn't the owl a predator too? And isn't it the chickens, not the wolf, who are making all the noise?
So many questions.



Actually, Cintune, most all of your responses on this and other threds betray where YOU might consider some "work." And unlike yourelf, I am not suggesting that when said "work" was done, you would have a quantifiable "thing" for the offing. It's not about that.

In most every sense of the word, you are a literalist of the physicalist variety. Note your comments above, in which the "Owl" is posited as an actual owl, and it's attributs are drawn from the particulars of the feathered bird.

In fact the Owl here is used metaphorically. You've heard of those, Holmes. And this here metaphor is not harking back to the feathered article, rather a qality often totally lost on the literalist, ergo all the "What the hell?" questions when a tangible, physical thing/gadget/unit is not in the offing.

There's is nothing wrong with being a literalist. Some people's brains are programed that way. The common mistake is in believing that if your brain is not wired for literal interpretations, it is tuned into Kjive and you're just making stuff up that has no basis in "reality."

What a person gets out of a studied and sober readding of Song of Songs might be a warm fable about a man and a woman, from that first date to consumation. Others might sense out a parable about the relations between the male and female parts of our psyche, and the relationship between our "soul" and the "Owl."

No one can tell you, Cintune, what that Owl is in a literal sense because like all things spiritual, it is know only by its effects, while the Owl itself remains ungreaspable. That is not "nebulous." That's just how it goes in that realm.

JL
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Most of you believers are one God away from being an atheist. Atheist numbers are growing. I imagine the atheists will be much more forgiving to believers than the believers were to those of no faith or the wrong faith, historically speaking. Perhaps those of faith should pray for kindness, just in case. :0
TY
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Klimmer
NO, Einstein did NOT believe in god in later years. Your quote is from 1929. Einstein wrote on 24 March 1954:


"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[8]
Eric Gutkind sent a copy of his book "Choose Life: The Biblical Call To Revolt"[10] to Einstein in 1954. Einstein sent Gutkind a letter in response and wrote, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."


By 1954, 25 years after your quotation, he was in no way a deist.
You're a science teacher? Please get your facts straight.


HT,
I have gone round and round with Norton on this before.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2172759&msg=2175825#msg2175825

I can agree with you to some degree. It seems Eistein went from a believer in HaShem (Judaism), Theist, in his youth ----> to Deism ----> to maybe Agnosticism.

But even reading the quote you gave, he is very careful to explain he doesn't believe in a "personal" G-d. Believing in a personal G-d is Theism. Believing in a non-personal G-d is Deism. He doesn't say there is no G-d.



Did Albert Einstein Believe in a Personal God?
by Rich Deem
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html




This book looks really good, I should order it and read it ...


Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology [Paperback]
Max Jammer (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/069110297X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=069110297X&link_code=as3&tag=savedbygracemini



From Publishers Weekly
Given the voluminous literature on Albert Einstein (including more than a dozen biographies in the 1990s alone), it is surprising that so little scholarly attention has been paid to the scientist's religious views. Israeli physics professor Jammer, who knew Einstein personally, shows us an Einstein whose nominal childhood faith turned to atheism while preparing for a bar mitzvah that never took place. From then on, Einstein's religious views were a bundle of apparent contradictions: he corresponded with the world's great spiritual leaders yet disapproved of religious instruction for his sons, arguing that it was "contrary to all scientific thinking." He claimed that "science without religion is lame" but never set foot in a synagogue and requested not to be buried in the Jewish tradition. While eluding definitive conclusions about Einstein's deistic "cosmic religion," Jammer demonstrates that religion fascinated the man throughout his career, prompting him to publish articles in the New York Times and elsewhere. Chapters 1 and 2 profile Einstein's religious development and the controversial reception his ideas found with theologians, rabbis and Christian clergy. The more recondite chapter 3 explores the theological implications of Einstein's theories (Jammer does not exaggerate when he cautions the reader that this section "requires some familiarity with the foundations of modern physics"). Jammer's writing is not always as sophisticated as his ideas; he relies too heavily on long quotations from other sources and abstruse jargon. In all, though, this is a compelling, long overdue treatment of a neglected topic. (Oct.)
Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc.



Edit:

What we can say for sure is that Einstein was an enigma in this regard.
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
Hey JE,

You wrote,
The message of Christianity has an inherent appeal to the humble, and an inherent repulsion to the proud. If self-pride and measured intelligence correlate positively, I would expect to find those with higher measured intelligence less likely to be attracted to a doctrine that says God exceeds humankind,

Those are interesting assertions. Do you have any evidence or studies to back them up? Are Christians more humble than non Christians? Are non Christians more proud than Christians. Does not seem like it would be terribly hard to do a study of these questions. If you compared the most humble Christian with the most humble non Christian would we see a difference? If you compared the most prideful Christian with the most prideful non Christian would we see a difference. Is there a difference in the average pridefulness and humbleness between Christians and non Christians?

Also, is self pride positively correlated with intelligence? Might seem self evident, but it seems to me that undo pride could interfere with intelligence.

Finally, do those with higher intelligence have trouble accepting that there are forces greater than humankind or do they have trouble accepting that one of those forces is called God?

In the article about intelligence and religiosity linked above:
Criticisms of the conclusions include that the paper only deals with a definition of analytic intelligence and fails to consider newly identified forms of creative and emotional intelligence.

I think this mirrors John's implied argument that Christianity appeals to a higher emotional intelligence while it does not appeal to analytical intelligence. Again, this is a position which is potentially testable. Do Christions have higher emotional intelligence than non Christians? We can start by just look at demographics. Do Christians have lower rates than non Christians, of crime, divorce, emotional illness, or similar?

This is really the big question. Are you emotionally more healthy being a Christian or being an atheist, or being something else? It seems like this answer varies dramatically between individuals. But it is also worth looking at averages. On average, are atheists or Christians more emotionally healthy and stable? Or is there any difference?
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
We all know that Christians can't know what they claim to know...and yet they're trying to tell us what to do and how to act based on THAT? AWWW HELL NO

(It's a paraphrased Hitchens line.)

Edit: Klimmer, the dude that posted all the stuff about there being aliens on mars and whatnot? How am I not surprised, then, that he is totally confused about what Einstein wrote/said?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Yo Dark,

Even Israeli physics professor Jammer, who knew Einstein personally, can't exactly say if Einstein was a Deist, Agnostic, or an Atheist. Read about Jammer above. Are you going to say you know for sure? What we can say is that Einstein is indeed an enigma is this regard. Many people are.

How many Atheists on ST are there now, that may in time become believers? Things are gonna change. G-d is gonna show what he says is true toward the end of this dispensation of time.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Paul,

I have no independent studies, other than my own personal experience, although I think the Bible is full of similar conclusions. The O.T. warns Israel of the danger of forgetting God when times are good, and Paul states in I Cor. that "the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing," going on to state that it's folly to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews.

Further, I always interpreted Jesus's saying, that unless one is like a little child, one cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, to require a massive amount of humility. I don't know about you, but in my life I haven't found humility and measured intelligence positively correlated.

I know -- and my wife (and, at times, Tim) reminds me -- that my personal pride is still a rather big problem for me.

Of course, I should also emphasize that any such study holds true, at most, only in the aggregate. It forms no rational basis for judging individuals' intelligence, however measured.

John

Edit: Neither does it form a basis for judging any individual's pride or humility. I know plenty of humble atheists and proud Christians. After all, there is no valid "law of small numbers" in statistics.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
How many Atheists on ST are there now, that may in time become believers? Things are gonna change. G-d is gonna show what he says is true toward the end of this dispensation of time.

This thread is definitely not going to convince anyone to pick up a bible, that is for sure!

BTW when's the due date on this dispensation of time? G-d has had a few false alarms already, just wondering what day I should book off work?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
You're looking for a "great mind" anywhere on supertopo?!?!?

BAHHHAAAHAAHAAAHAAAAHA!!!!!!!!11

Now there's a point that's hard to argue against, Dave. Good one!

John
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
A perfect, classic example of interpreting an event or statement according to one's own theologic purposes. Which is pretty much exactly what the Bible & Christianity is all about.


For everyone? Not for me, it's not. I don't need "God" to have made the world in seven days to get valuable insight from the Book.

I'd be interested in hearing what excperiences or study you pursued to lead you to believe you know, as a simple fact, "exactly" what the Bible and Christianity is all about.

Imagine someone saying they knew "exactly" what biology was all about having never taken any biology classes but rather went by heresay and what was scribbled out on a chat board plus the wonky behavior or fundamentalists. The idea that rigorous intelligence has not been applied to Christianity is foolishness. Many equate Christianity with Old TGestiment cosmology, which was relegated to mythology by leading theologians ages ago. Again, read a little Karl Barth and see for yourself.

IMO, you underestimate both yourself and the material.

JL
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
1st of all, who the F cares what Einstein believed and what impact does that even have on this discussion? There's an entire chapter in Dawkin's The God delusion dedicated to the subject and I am still trying to figure out why. He's one man in a hive of many. I have to assume he has been held up by the believers because he was a scientist and some of his quotes were way above their heads and now misinterpreted. How about the Christian head of the Gnome project, Francis Sellers Collins? I don't see him being held up as a trophy Christian scientist, why Einstein? Oh yeah, because they have to go through the list of dead one to find one who believes. Or maybe because he can't defend himself, the believers love dead people, I don't think you can be a saint until your dead too. I think Einstein was trying to speak the laymen language to describe a highly advanced concept, that everything is god, the universe is god. Dawkins refers to it as Einstein's god, and I doubt Einstein was ever able to properly communicate his true feelings. Basically he couldn't explain it, we couldn't understand and it's pretty meaningless because it's just one man's opinion and prospective, lots of scientists share in the belief of Einstein's god, yet they are highly atheist. I will use myself as an example. The fascination that science brings me, the miracles I observe, and the feelings I get (warm fuzzies) are all god, the universal god, the laws which govern everything. I personally believe this is what Einstein was trying to say, and you have to remember he was doing it in a time when saying such things in public would be much more detrimental to you place in society, he veiled his beliefs through the use of religious vocabulary. Those who understood the intrinsic meaning of his message, understood it, those who did not just thought he was talking about god and didn't get pissed at the blasphemous we now know it to be. The reason you do not hear from more atheists from our past is because of prosecution from the majority (Christians). In fact it's already been proven many times that politicians, back in the day, professed to be very religious when they were in fact closet atheists. This was the way of the world, and right now in Utah, there's a million kids having doubts and they are terrified to speak up or question one little thing because they will be ostracized by their entire community. It is not the past, it is the now.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
In most every sense of the word, you are a literalist of the physicalist variety. Note your comments above, in which the "Owl" is posited as an actual owl, and it's attributs are drawn from the particulars of the feathered bird.

Indeed. It's just that a good metaphor tends to follow through on all the particulars to get its point across cogently.

Not to mention that you do know I'm taking all of this very lightly.

You do know that, right?

So maybe the owl should be more like, I dunno, a savvy barn swallow, just magnanimously indifferent to the fray below and concerned with loftier things, befitting its station in the pecking order, eh?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
you are a high school public employee, you are not a designated interpreter for g-d, get it?


Norton,

Who's interpreting G-d? I'm just telling you what his word says.

You are one scary kinda dude. It's people like you I really worry about. So full of hate. So much so that you want to control what people do professionally based on their personal beliefs. Even the ACLU doesn't want to do that. They even protect people's jobs against people like you.

I'm ok working with gays, Hindu's, atheists, whomever. I don't seek to ruin or remove or hate others. We get along fine. We don't have to agree, but we get along fine.

I've already countless times told many including you that I don't ever talk about "Forbidden Secret Knowledge" at my job.

You would have the same lame fear and argument against all of our Founding Fathers of Modern Science. Wow. You're really a deep thinker. You probably would have had all of them canned whom ever was in a teaching posistion ...




Guess what? Where already getting there, the last days ...

What Will the Last Days Be Like?
By David J. Stewart
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20the%20World/last_days.htm
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
John,

I'm not sure if you're directing your last comment to me, but I never said that rigorous intelligence has not been applied to Christianity. It's simply my observation of life that a Christian message of humanity's unworthiness and need for redemption that only God can provide would be more attractive to the humble than to the proud.

The history of Christian doctrine demonstrates that a very great deal of rigorous intelligence has been applied to Christianity by Christians, and starting much earlier than Barth. Augustine, Chrysostom, and many others from long ago had rather keen intelligence, too.

If you're saying that there is no such thing as an essential definition of Christianity, I would tend to agree, which is why I qualified it by the term "orthodox," which does have a generally-accepted core of belief.

Of course, if you didn't refer to what I said, never mind. . .

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
"1st of all, who the F cares what Einstein believed and what impact does that even have on this discussion?"

Agreed that it really doesn't mean a damn thing, but deists constantly circulate tweaked Einstein quotes as evidence that a true person of science believes in G-d. It's nothing more than taking quotes of a dead guy, and then tweaking them to make your own point, regardless of how detached that point might be from the belief or intent of the person who actually said it.

That's the parallel I'm trying to draw with the Bible & Christianity, btw.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
Klimmer, I think you are missing the point. It's the nature of the job and your perspective on things which you cannot or do not know to be true, yet still believe. Knowing what I know about you and your beliefs, if you were my child's teacher, regardless of what you did or did not do in the classroom, I would remove my daughter from your class. We have a right to protect ourselves and our children from people like you, just as much as you have the right to wear a tin foil hat and pray to a dead body on a cross.

If I was a teacher and some Christian parents came in all pissed because I was teaching science instead of creationism, I would be sad and disappointed, but it's their right to brain wash their children, at least till they are 18, lol..

You can profess all day long that you do not let your beliefs enter that classroom, but you are your beliefs just as much as I own mine. Everything you present and teach comes with a perspective, bias and nuance, whether you try to hide it or not, it's there. You don't even have to be in the learning field (as you and I both are) to understand that. Everyone here went to school and experienced exactly what I am talking about from almost every teacher.

I will admit that my liberal views on economics and government are a direct result of a high school teacher. My strong interest in history is because of a great story teller and theologian, also one of my teachers. Our parents have the greatest effect on our early lives and we almost become them, accepting their beliefs until we have heard otherwise or gathered enough info to make up our own mind. Hell even the ladies will change religions or political leanings when meeting a new man.

Do I need to go on?

You have an interesting and risky profession for someone with your beliefs, that goes without saying..
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Edit: Klimmer, the dude that posted all the stuff about there being aliens on mars and whatnot? How am I not surprised, then, that he is totally confused about what Einstein wrote/said?


Dark,

Since you brought it up, Aliens on Mars! Lol.


A Fossil Hunter's Guide to Mars
by Sir Charles W. Shults III
http://www.shultslaboratories.com/AFHG2MPR.htm


All from official NASA images ...




There are fossil alien life forms on Mars! But their actual more familiar than Alien: Stromatolites, Crinoids, Mollusks, etc. etc.

But we're not supposed to talk about it. SSSSsssshhhhhhh. It's "Forbidden Secret Knowledge." Sometimes pure science gets suppressed. Sad really.



Q: So how does Evolution and terra forming occur exactly parallel on two very distant terrestrial planets? Man, I want to know exactly how that happens. I guess I should start a separate thread for that can of worms. Pardon the pun. Lol.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
And yes Jaybro, I'm still climbing, just not with people and I'm not spraying about it. My daughter has also slowed me down a little, but I don't mind, I can tell she's gonna be a good climber, lol..
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
I want what klimmer is smoking, anyone have any?

I bet there it's extremely rare that he offers any science from someone not trying to sell you something...

Hey klimmer, how about a link to a scientific journal that published this science you speak of? Why do we need to buy a book or CD from some quack job. Do you even ask yourself these questions?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
You have an interesting and risky profession for someone with your beliefs, that goes without saying..


Squishy,


You'd have the same complaints regarding Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and yes dare I say it ... Einstein. They all did science and they all thought about these things: G-d, faith, theology, at deep levels.

Should I put you in the same camp as Norton? The camp of Intolerance?

Why not go after Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or those who practice Judaism, or any other scientist or teacher of faith? Why do you single out Christians or Messianic Judaic Jews who are scientists and teachers?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Klimmer, my problem is that I don't think you can compartmentalize your kookery to outside of the classroom.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
Because you are linking to people who are trying to sell things, people who offer nothing but cool aid for the crazy and insane in the name of money...if you were simply a Christian I wouldn't have said sh#t, but you are admitting to wearing a tinfoil hat, you just hinted at the existence of "real" science, like we need a distinction. I have heard that before, from men at a pulpit telling me science is the seed of the devil and evidence has been planted...

Tell me, what would motivate any human to suppress real knowledge (real data, reproducible results and long lasting theory)?

And then just take one moment to think about what would motivate someone to make up bullshit knowledge to sell to you...

are you truly that naive?
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
Jesus was just a stoner...
http://www.hightimes.com/read/was-jesus-stoner
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/06/science.religion
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
Tell me, what would motivate any human to suppress real knowledge (real data, reproducible results and long lasting theory)?

And then just take one moment to think about what would motivate someone to make up bullshit knowledge to sell to you...

are you truly that naive?





Squishy,


Think of the implications of life on Mars: Stromatolites, crinoids, mollusks etc.? That would upset the apple cart tremendously.

I don't have knee jerk reactions concerning possible revolutionary ideas and discoveries. I actually do look into things. Curious minds want to know.

I have the CD and have read it and looked at all the images, many are in 3D. The visual evidence to me seems overwhelming. Remote sensing is a science and an art. You can look at ratios, patterns, and mathematical ratios of patterns, and sizes of the fossils remotely and prove they're authentic. You can even determine the Genus, and the species. However, on Mars these would all be new species within the same Genus that we have here on Earth.

Aren't you the least curious?



Many others are looking into it also ...



Comments and Reviews

"Sir Charles has done a stellar job in identifying fossils on Mars"
- Dr. David Livingston
Host of The Space Show

“There is no question that these are sand dollars- biological markings of not complex life but life, really life on Mars. I can see this very clearly, even with my two-dimensional vision.”
- Art Bell
Host of Coast to Coast AM radio

“I know that your findings are correct; I can’t think of any other reasonable explanation. Those are fossils, but to admit it is professional suicide!
- Michael Fulton, PhD
Designer of NASA’s Deep Space One
spacecraft power system

“Wow, to spend an hour with the man himself seeing the raw data- this is going to be the best book on Mars ever.”
- Dr. Charles Ostman
UN Science Advisor and Nanotechnologist

“This is hard evidence of water on Mars. Everything we have been told is wrong, Mars has water and weather just like Earth."
- Mike Hagan
Host of Radio Orbit

“Life on Mars today would definitely be underground where the water is.”
- Dr. Michio Kaku, PhD
Theoretical Physicist

"I highly recommend it. One of the best examples of a multimedia presented peer reviewable 'paper' on an arcane topic I've ever read."
- Keith Laney
Astronomical Image Processor

"Sir Charles' refutation of NASA's numerous obfuscations, which he does easily and severally, I found entertaining. In any event, for any with interest in the subject of past and/or present life on Mars, and demonstrable fossils thereof, 'A Fossil Hunter's Guide to Mars' is, in a word, groundbreaking. Unless I miss my guess, in future years this study shall be highly regarded, indeed. I'd buy it if I were you."
- Kenneth Johnson
Sand Point, Alaska




You seem to think suppression doesn't occur. It occurs often. How long did the military and our government deny there was an Area 51? They still don't like to admit it. But they now have reluctantly on record admitted that it does indeed exist. The same can and does happen in science at times. Sadly.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Klimmer, my problem is that I don't think you can compartmentalize your kookery to outside of the classroom.


Dirt,


You are correct. You don't think.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Thanks for your post, Dave, but I have to make one change. While orthodox Christian doctrine includes the belief that humanity is helpless, it does not conclude that it is worthless. If anything, the lengths to which God went to redeem humanity would imply that we have infinite worth.

It's our personal righteousness that's worthless.

John
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Illuminati...bible codes... Noah's ark on the moon... Yeah I want the guy who believes that stuff teaching my kids science. Lol
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
Do you think a small list of endorsements which includes two radio show hosts (I have listened to Art Bell by the way and it's all sensationalism and bull) outweighs the fact that you had to purchase that info? Not to mention the giant gorilla in the room, Are you saying all the scientists who actually took those photos and analyzed them are suppressing data or are too stupid to see the truth while the dude selling the CD can? What you are saying is that we don't need a space program, we don't need NASA, mainly because they are untrustworthy or too stupid to do their job, but we should trust some dude with a web page who wants our ten bucks?

Again, are you truly this naive?

Let me give you a very simple bit of advice, if "they" (anyone) wants your money, it's bullshit or at least deserves the most skeptical viewpoint you can muster.

You sir, are failing at critical thinking. There are entire industries built around people like you and I am sort of stupid for not getting in on the action based on the stubbornness of your ignorance.

I am not trying to put you down, I don't want to call you names, but I am at a complete loss. Tell me, how can I help you? I actually feel bad for you. Do you have any wiggle room, doubts or questions that I may be able to help you with? I am not knowledgeable, by far, I am prolly just as ignorant as you, but I am skeptical enough to recognize bullshit when it's staring me in the face.

Sure, mars most likely had life on it, NASA has said as much, but it was a very long time ago and I am sure there's signs of it. But some dude taking stock nasa photos and identifying little round balls and spinning it, does not deserve your money. Please go to Nasa.com and read read read, and ask questions till you are blue in the face if that is what interests you. When you reach the limit of your understand, you most likely reached the language barrier and at that point you need to take the scientist's findings at face value. But don't pay for some dude to do all this for you...I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are lazy (and have money to blow)...

Learning is not a spectator sport...
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Go suck a wolf dong, then take your banning like a man.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Squishy,

Seems you have anger issues. Don't blow a gasket.

You call something BS and yet you don't even look into it. That is a knee-jerk reaction. That is the height purposeful ignorance, of putting your head in the ground.

I'm all for NASA. We should be doing more not less. However, pure science and knowledge does get suppressed. NASA recall is also a political entity and politically motivated depending who pulls the strings.

Hey, the former NASA "Moonwalkers" have a great deal to say about Aliens. Yes, little green beings, yet NASA is completely mum or denies all the testimony of former Astronauts, NASA employees, military officers etc. etc. etc.

We are indeed living in very interesting times.



Sure, mars most likely had life on it, NASA has said as much, but it was a very long time ago and I am sure there's signs of it. But some dude taking stock nasa photos and identifying little round balls and spinning it, does not deserve your money. Please go to Nasa.com and read read read, and ask questions till you are blue in the face if that is what interests you. When you reach the limit of your understand, you most likely reached the language barrier and at that point you need to take the scientist's findings at face value. But don't pay for some dude to do all this for you...I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are lazy (and have money to blow)...

Learning is not a spectator sport...


Sounds like you're beginning to back peddle.


The implications of finding fossilized life forms on Mars is revolutionary to say the least, as I said before. If there are indeed fossilized Stromatolites, Crinoids, Mollusks etc. on Mars, then it seems to suggest exact parallel Evolution and terra forming processes on 2 very distant terrestrial planets. Modern Evolution really has no explanation for that kind of model.

The evidence suggests something far more wonderful ...



Edit:


Aug 13, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Go suck a wolf dong, then take your banning like a man.



Dirtbag,


So you ban someone who comes to my defense? Lol. I thought he had nice things to say.

And why would you have the power to ban posters on ST?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Indeed. It's just that a good metaphor tends to follow through on all the particulars to get its point across cogently.
-


The "point" that you seek is IME found through personal effort beyond merely thinking about something. Nothing is a given in the spiritual arena because to make any ground there, you have to go against Nature, in a sense - at least the survival mode we are programmed to operarte out of as our standard MO.

Most of us want a "point" that will tally alongside facts and figures of the numericl type. No harm in wanting these, since those are the symbols we all grew up with and they apply to the physical realm in ways our minds can readily get hold of. But it does not work that way with things spiritual - nor is the spiritual uniquely related to felings, beliefs, faith, etc. Presence and truth are the basics, but they are not so easily had IME, and never completely.

Of course there have ben ghastly thngs done in the name of Christianity, and we are advised to go to other sources beyond the Old Testiment for our cosmologies. Bickering with those who hold onto literal takes on old school bibilcal yarns about creation et al is arguing at a very rudimentary level. The discussions that make a difference in the lives we lead all have to do with the Owl. We borrow its eyes to see.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Klimmer, that would be convergent evolution, and since it happens all the time here, it really wouldn't be all that surprising if it happened elsewhere. Life is very practical that way.

Of course I think your evidence is, shall we say, thin at best, but all the same it wouldn't be a huge shock if something along the lines of Precambrian life did manage to get a pseudopod-hold on Mars for a bit, until things apparently went south.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Largo, points well taken, and we've been over this before, I'd just point out that I have in fact moved past the explicit Christianity-bashing. Gotta grow up sometime. It was fun, but ultimately pointless, really. People believe what they want to believe, for reasons that apparently can't be reasoned with. I wish them all the best anyway.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jawon

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
OK, here goes, I'm getting sucked in. Let me first clarify, my intent is not to sway anyone's position in this online forum. I think I have a better chance of redpointing a 14a thin seam in tennis shoes. I'm just curious if the tenor of this debate would change if the focus was on something else because it feels like we're debating the virtues of Yosemite based on single-pitch cliffs while ignoring the big walls.

"Why does everyone hate Christianity so much?" To summarize based on this thread...

Christians are hypocrites.
Christians judge me.
Christians are brainwashers.
Christians are selfish.
Christians don't use reason and science.
Christians taint our policies.
Christians restrict my freedom.
Christians have caused so much pain in the name of God.

I'm sure I missed some, but I think that's a pretty good summary. We all know it's true, let's not fool ourselves into thinking otherwise. So moving on to the next question...

"Why does everyone hate Jesus so much?"

Interestingly, Jesus essentially had the same list of criticisms to the religious majority of his time. He was a rebel, questioning how religion was being practiced. He came, like many of you, wanting none of the religious mold on this earth. If Jesus lived in our time, you'd see him at Camp 4 in The Valley, messing with authority. And many of you would have gladly roped up with him, talking smack at each belay station about those holy joes.

Which goes back to my question... Why does everyone hate Jesus so much? I'd like to think that most of you DON'T hate Jesus or his teachings, and that the hatred is towards religious practitioners who've gotten very good at bending their gods to THEIR will.

Jesus lived 2000 years ago. That's really not that long ago. It's not like we're talking about neanderthals. No matter your position, you cannot dispute his existence. OK, you can and you probably will. But what I've learned is that non-Christian historians say he existed. Secular writers of his time mention him. If you give me a temporary benefit of the doubt on this one, let's move on and I just want to know whether Jesus himself, not his errant followers, rubs you the wrong way?

If you haven't read the Gospels and at least one of Paul's letters (my personal favorite is Galatians), you should, at the very least to be more credible in these debates. Judging Christianity based on barbaric crusaders, extremist bombers, "God hates fags" protestors, outspoken televangelists, and paparazzi following Scientologists, is like judging climbing based on Half Dome free soloists and 15a first ascencionists. Yes, I just compared Honnold to an extremist, but only for making this point :) They get the hype, but I will argue they don't represent the "essence" of climbing for most of us. Pushing personal limits within safe bounds, finding our personal adventures, connecting with the mountain. We need to look beyond the headlines to understand what climbing is about. We need to look beyond the headlines to understand what Jesus is about.

In fact, the words "Christian" and "Christianity" have way too much emotional and historical baggage. I now tell people I'm a Jesus-follower. In this complex world, there are now such things as Muslim Jesus-followers. Being "Muslim" can be a tag for a way of life. Being a Jesus-follower is about who you turn to. These are not contradictory. You can even be a Jesus-following scientist, God forbid. I'm a statistical analyst, lover of reason, data-driven, and have gone (and continue to go) through lots of research to learn about Jesus, as well as other religions. So no, I did not throw away critical thinking to be a follower of Jesus, in fact my faith is stronger for it.

I hate what some Christians have done to this world. Jesus did too. We've gone off route, way off route. We can agree on that. But I love that he came to get us back on route. And debate like this can be good because as CS Lewis put it "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

So really, why does everyone hate Jesus so much?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
Klimmer I didn't call for him to be banned nor do I have any banning authority. But since he had been banned, I believe he should respect the process. I said he should act like a man and take his banishment.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
Jawon,

Like I said before, it exites me to be apart of the dissussion because of people just like you. That was a brilliant post and I can't disagree with one word of it. Your characterization of Jesus is spot on (IMO), it's plain to see you've done the homework. I hope you stick around, I am curious about the details of your belief.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
No, seems disingenuous to me.
I now tell people I'm a Jesus-follower.

All those words yet not one mention of the fundamental that set it all off: is it FOR YOU Jesus (the God) follower? or Jesus (the man-philosopher) follower?

Big difference. Big.

Is Jawon a man or mouse? squeak up...

.....

However... Thank the gods for the likes of Cintune and Squishy. But Squishy was batting near 1000 till that last post.

Squishy, I think you're a Sam Harris fan to some degree. So ask yourself: What would Sam Harris say? to Jawon's post. Food for thought.


Edit: thank the fates (aka gods) for Malemute, Norton and Dr. F, too. Or we'd be overrun around here!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
The good news is that, anthropologically speaking, we are nearing the end of religion.


Belief and disbelief have always been a component of human society...acting as a counterpoise, one to the other. That will continue, never reaching a symmetry...

The roots of the dissonance are in our child-mind...alternately accepting and rejecting authority of parents...as we learn to manipulate by refusing/accepting, spurning/approving, etc.

American atheists have suffered shoddy treatment from pseudo-christian authority and desire emotional and intellectual defrayal from the "I'm saved, but you're not" debasement. So they learn to provoke, as they've been provoked...learn to demean, as they've been demeaned.

Demonization is usually a two-way street, and we learn it by being demonized ourself.

This cycle of discord between the religious and irreligious will increase intensity in coming years...but religion, belief in god vs. anti-religion and disbelief will ultimately continue in equipoise to one another.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
Belief and disbelief have always been a component of human society...acting as a counterpoise, one to the other. That will continue, never reaching a symmetry...

The roots of the dissonance are in our child-mind...alternately accepting and rejecting authority of parents...as we learn to manipulate by refusing/accepting, spurning/approving, etc.

American atheists has suffered shoddy treatment from pseudo-christian authority and desire emotional and intellectual defrayal from the "I'm saved, but you're not" debasement. So they learn to provoke, as they've been provoked...learn to demean, as they've been demeaned.

Demonization is usually a two-way street, and we learn it by being demonized ourself.

This cycle of discord between the religious and irreligious will increase intensity in coming years...but religion, belief in god vs. anti-religion and disbelief will ultimately continue in equipoise to one another.

Well said, sister. There is wisdom in those words.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
Well said, sister. There is wisdom in those words.
Ha, I knew someone would post something along these lines, lol!

To my eyes and ears, it's the old Jennie and the same old "pedanticism."

Different strokes for different folks. Eh? :)

(Just sorry it was you wayno.) ;)

...counterpoise...never reaching a symmetry... pseudo-christian authority... emotional and intellectual defrayal... Demonization ... continue in equipoise to one another.

Really I'm surprised you didn't throw in... "logical implication and conversational implicature" !!

C'mon, spare me. Aughh! Jesus H. Bomz!!
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
Yeah Jawon, Jesus the god? Or Jesus the man?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
It's funny, in a way: according to them, despite all the problems facing humanity, who is buggering who is one of God's top concerns.

God is a weird dude.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
The good news is that, anthropologically speaking, we are nearing the end of religion.


Belief and disbelief have always been a component of human society...acting as a counterpoise, one to the other. That will continue, never reaching a symmetry...
---


I was a Christian basher once as well. Then I studied some theology and realized the heavy weight stuff was not a matter of questioning Genesis as historical fact, or fishing 10,000 trout from a basket, but far deeper material having to do with stuff not easily grasped.

That much said, I would agree that we are nearling the end of old school religion and moving toward spirituality, which is not a task of wrangling parts or bits or fragments - which is what narrow-focused discursive thinkign begets - but from living with the whole in ways that are vastly counter-intuitive and require a lot of work to get hold of in any meaningful way. The belief that all of this material is a given, that all we have to do is unleash our "minds" on it and viola - we GOT it, is just silly.

Insisting that spiritual concerns should be easy as pie to get hold of and understand is like blaming physics for being complicated and difficult to grasp - then blaming pysics because of it. Hey, if you can't tell me in simple terms why the hell energy is never lost or created, then the whole thing must be wrong. Right? Fact is, physics takes a lot of work to get straight on, at even the dumbass level at which I undeerstand some basics.

The other side of the coin is a fundamentalst take or MO per either physicalism or spirituality, basically expecing too much for either. People like Fruity insist that technology will soon provide the very solutions for the age-old ills of mankind, not seeing that technology has not eliminited our aggression, to mention one thing, but it's given us drones and miniguns which do the job more efficiently than muskets and swords. But when someone is marooned in a perspective, expecting the sun and moon from either science or spirituality, they will have blind spots the size of the Crab Nebula - we can easily see why. Arguing with same is to totally dishonor your time, a lessing I had to learn the hard way.

JL
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
What do people think spiritual is? Is that not just another excuse or way to rationalize that which we do not understand? I don't even accept personal testimony as proof of anything in light of what the mind can do. I have heard the stories, I am sure you guys know what the mind can produce as well.

Show me the experiment, if I cannot reproduce it and gather the same data you did, it is simply not...that is the measure we should apply to all human knowledge. Just don't expect solid answers to our original questions, and don't assume, theorize.

I should heed my own words sometimes, I accept I am only a human animal, like every one else, just another selfish, biased as#@&%e, like a plague, reshaping and destroying our earth. What is this spirit thing you speak of? Is that like string theory? But with spirits, lol. You'll have to excuse me I am dabbling in neurobiology and chemistry at the moment...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
which is what narrow-focused discursive thinkign begets - but from living with the whole in ways that are vastly counter-intuitive and require a lot of work to get hold of

I thought we left this on the god thread??

.....

Norton, you're encouraging him, lol!
Afterall, he's got enough going on already...
Largo/JL did you get to read through the recent Amber Alert thread i started

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2200917/supertopo-account-closure
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 13, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
I am not strongly critical of discursive mind. How do you think I wrote all those anchor books? Try that some time - it will tie your brain in knots trying to plainly explain a giant cluster-f*#ked anchor array.

What I don't claim is that the discursive or rational mind is the end-all, nor do I expect it to do more than it was made to do. This is what scientism is - expecting rationalit to provide all the information. Everything is NOT science and every realm cannot be divided and conquered and understood in that way, no matter how much we want the world to be as such. But it ain't.
Attempts do so only dumb down the ungraspable heart of it all.

This is all made clear in the statement: What do people think spiritual is?

If you're thinking, you are not in the realm. This does not mean, whatsoever, that non-thining or no-mind is the equal of jibberish or irrationality, rather hyper-rationality.

Spirituality is the process of getting there. Asking "Where is that" is a question from the rational mind. The more frutiful question is: How do I get there. Answer: Shut the f*#k up and settle. Then you're off to the races. Thinking is what you do before and after, but not during the exploration. Any more than you work on ridles or limericks in the middle of a hard lead. Wrong place, wrong tactic.

What this all boils down to is that all of us, before we learn otherwise, demand that all of reality be the rightful province of discursive thought. It is, in a way, but you have to travel far with no thought or whatever you find will be a projection, not the Owl looking behind the forms. None of this will square with the rational mind, which rightfully balks when hearing it is left out of the game, even for a moment.

But that's the game, and it's been that way going on forever - a game that lies beyond facts and figures, fuzzy felings, qualia of all types, all beliefs, ideas, imaginings and labels. This last one is perhaps the hardest to understand, that there are qualities out there beyond symbolic representation. Our rational minds simply cannot get hold of "that."

JL



Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
If all else fails, accuse your antagonists of pedophillia!!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
I believe you know what I'm saying.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
I think largo is defining conscious, the question on whether we are and the theories of what it is.

Yes the subject has scientific theories..
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
I believe I just saw a squirrel, but I am not quite sure, might have been the virgin Mary...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
Meanwhile...Rome burns...!
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
I wish someone would take a razor to this thread...
Jawon

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:24am PT
So I'm getting crickets to my follow up question. I guess being buried as post #399 of this thread doesn't get me much airtime. If you haven't read my post, please do in the prior page I think. It's a sincere question... Why does everyone hate Jesus so much?

squishy:

Like I said before, it exites me to be apart of the dissussion because of people just like you. That was a brilliant post and I can't disagree with one word of it. Your characterization of Jesus is spot on (IMO), it's plain to see you've done the homework. I hope you stick around, I am curious about the details of your belief.


Thank you. Yes, it is invigorating when informed debates can happen.

High Fructose Corn Spirit:

All those words yet not one mention of the fundamental that set it all off: is it FOR YOU Jesus (the God) follower? or Jesus (the man-philosopher) follower?

Sorry for that oversight. The answer is Yes to all of it. I am a follower of Jesus the God/man/philosopher. All of it. Which btw is one of the characteristics that makes him unique.

Dave Kos:

Many Christians believe the earth is 6,000 years old. They have no reasoned explanation for neanderthal fossils.

I wouldn't say "many" Christians believe in the "young earth" theory, I sure don't. And I DO have a reasoned explanation for neanderthal fossils. Let's not over generalize. I won't get into details, but what I've learned is that science and the bible do NOT conflict on this matter nor many others.

In fact, since the God I believe in both inspired the bible AND created this world, my logical conclusion is that science and the bible SHOULD agree. And if you dig beneath the surface, they do. And it will probably surprise you. And it opens up a whole new appreciation for both sides. How cool would that be to eventually get to a point where the words of God and the findings of science shore each other up. That's the kind of richness I long for and I think we are further along than most people think.

Norton:

wanna know what really pisses me off about Klimmer and all the other fundamentalist Christians?
among many other things..
it is that they are obsessed with BODY PARTS
know WHY they oppose same sex marriage?

That pisses me off too. Now I'm going to get flamed by both sides of the aisle here. There are plenty of us Christians who do NOT oppose same sex marriage. I'll leave it at that.

My point in all this is that there is such variety in what Christians believe and don't believe. To turn away from a religion because of a few outspoken people is like avoiding that 4 star classic because a few climbers poo-pooed it after an epic fail. The scary thing for you is that I am probably more like you than you'd wish!

I see posts getting pretty brutal here and I've already broken my rule of talking religion with people I don't have a personal relationship with, so I'm going to stop adding to the chatter. But if you happen to have a sincere comment or question you want me to respond to AND are willing to hear something that may not fit inside your box, I'm certainly willing to share what I've learned.

And back to my first post in this thread, these topics are all distractions anyway to the crux of the matter. Now, why won't anyone answer my question, why do so many people hate Jesus so much? :)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:53am PT
What's to like?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:56am PT
Believe what you need to but when you dismiss the beliefs of others and insist that your's are the real thing, you have crossed a line of decency. Many versions of Christianity proselytize thus rejecting another's beliefs; this is wrong.
John M

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:00am PT
Believe what you need to but when you dismiss the beliefs of others and insist that your's are the real thing, you have crossed a line of decency. Many versions of Christianity proselytize thus rejecting another's beliefs; this is wrong.

You mean like when anyone on this forum says they believe in God, a whole raft of people show up to deride their beliefs?
WBraun

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:12am PT
You mean like when anyone on this forum says they believe in God, a whole raft of people show up to deride their beliefs?


LOL hahaha

All these stupid hypocrites in this thread just got pawned ........
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:32am PT
The OT, the Torah, the Tenakh is the foundation. The NT is Commentary on the OT. They go hand in hand. If you don’t understand this vital truth then your theology is really massively wrong. You’re only using half of G-d’s word. Yeshua didn't come to start a new religion. It’s Judaism with Messiah. The Jews were waiting for the Messiah. And he’s the Mashiach, the Messiah.

The Messianic Hebrews, the Messianic Jews were Torah observant. They were zealous for the law. The difference is that there was no more curse under the law, no more capital punishment, no more physical death for breaking Torah, but love and forgiveness, in Messianic Judaism. Yeshua paid the price. He is the all-time and once and forever Lamb of G-d for all our sins and our redemption.

No more need to sacrifice animals for the atonement of sin. It's been paid. Paid in full. (However, there will be sacrifices of love, offerings, and devotion for and to G-d in the 3rd and 4th Temple to come. But not for the atonement for sin. Yeshua paid it. He is the final sacrifice for sin for all time.)

You must be born again, and once your sins are forgiven, you are expected to go and sin no more. You will fall. We are human. Ask forgiveness, get up, shake off the dust and continue on. It’s a life process. It took 40 years for G-d to set the nation of Israel straight and rid them of their sinful ways, including homosexuality and worse.



The Bible throughout the OT and NT is very clear on the subject of homosexuality.

Q: What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?
A: A lot. Yes, it’s a sin, so therefore don’t do it.
http://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-Bible.html

Q: What does the Bible say about gay marriage / same sex marriage?
A: Don’t do it. Don’t do it. It’s a sin.
http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html

Q: Can a person be born gay?
A: No. Not really.
http://www.gotquestions.org/born-gay.html

Q: Why are Christians homophobic?
A: True Christians aren’t.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-homophobic.html
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:44am PT
Is it fetish pleasure to destroy somebody's faith, handing them a bag of sh#t with some formulas on the outside and maybe some xanax too.

As far as the science and post-religious side of it goes, I suppose you have to be something of a cultural evolution junkie, a civilization junkie, a science, engineering and technology junkie, maybe even a Star Trek junkie to understand.

At bottom, if you have to ask, you probably won't get it.

Regarding the xanax side of it... pretty scary. I've thought about it many years now, I don't know how H. sapiens is going to get around this one. As technology, it seems set like a pandora's box ready to explode.

It's certainly a false equivalency, I think, to compare the quality of belief - or the reasonableness of belief - between religious education and science education. Which, if we're going to be totally honest, you've always done around here. Give me a airplane, a jetliner, to a chariot of fire to ascend the clouds anyday. :)

.....

fancy word smyths that artfully tap dance around answering any question directly

Really I think this only describes one or two around here, and from the religious-spiritual side of it.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:47am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:53am PT
Studly,

Thanks. Hadn't heard Amy sing that before. Baruch HaShem.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:06am PT
No, I hope not. Really I think you've asked great questions. Really I wanted to respond to your last one a few days back (since it's so relevant) but I was busy out the door. (Still waiting on Nutjob perhaps, ha.) And tonight, just tired, a long day, but I think the answer is pretty clear on re-read. It strikes me as more or less the same response if someone asked why climbers do it - when to plenty an observer it clearly seems crazy stupid - esp when the climbers keep coming back to do it again and again.

I confess: I'm a science, history and cultural evolution junkie along with all the others. I want to see civilization continue to bloom, to flourish. At the same time, I recognize that there are numerous wars of ideas taking place in our time. In these I'd rather participate than spectate, engage rather than withdraw.

Here, proof of civilization on the move, upward bound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y_9hwW1eV0

An audio and visual delight. Watch in HD. Cowboys, vassels and lords, pharoahs, neanderthals... wish you could all be here to experience it. :)
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:10am PT
You mean like when anyone on this forum says they believe in God, a whole raft of people show up to deride their beliefs?

If the discussion is up and going as it is here, it is the free-for-all as it should be, but when approached by strangers or friends with proselytizing my feeling is that those folks have decided that another's private world is deficient and needs improving; this is screwed up.

I enjoy hearing about others' ways of managing life but this pagan will not be converted and has no need to be saved.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:25am PT
Q: Can a person be born gay?
A: No. Not really.
http://www.gotquestions.org/born-gay.html

Actually, there is a lot of science that shows otherwise.

You know, SCIENCE--that stuff you're supposed to be teaching kids.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 11:31am PT
On a scale of 1 to 10. 1 being the believers in a 6,000 year old planet and 10 being me, a complete atheist and skeptic of everything. Christians would fall into the 9 slot. They believe in one god, they reject all the others, and that list of things they do not believe is huge. Just think of all the gods they don't believe in for one moment, they are in fact atheistic or moving in that direction. Dawkins claims to also be a 9 but for a different reason, I think I lean toward 10 because I don't leave much room for alien intervention or intelligent design. Christians are actually our brothers next to the fundies or people like klimmer who are on the bottom end of the spectrum...

And Largo, you haven't answered any of my questions. Maybe you think you have with your poetic prose, but if your point is not communicated to it's audience I feel it's ineffective, care to try to explain it in layman's terms? Pretend you are speaking to a third grader..
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 11:38am PT
The Bible throughout the OT and NT is very clear on the subject of homosexuality.

Snow White and Sleeping Beauty are very clear on the subject of witches. So what?

If the discussion is up and going as it is here, it is the free-for-all as it should be, but when approached by strangers or friends with proselytizing my feeling is that those folks have decided that another's private world is deficient and needs improving; this is screwed up.

Screwed up for sure. I've terminated some friendships because of their proselytizing. It is a shame we couldn't just keep hanging without them feeling the need to tell me how believing in their fairy tales could improve my life.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 14, 2013 - 11:44am PT
There are 2.18 billion Christians around the world, up from about 600 million in 1910, according to a 2011 study by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life. But the world’s overall population also has risen rapidly, from an estimated 1.8 billion in 1910 to 6.9 billion in 2010. As a result, Christians make up about the same portion of the world’s population today (32%) as they did a century ago (35%).
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 11:50am PT
So you don't like blow jobs huh?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
"fancy word smyths that artfully tap dance around answering any question directly"

"Directly" here almost certainly means, "with quantifiable or testible information." In other words, facts or figures or real, physical data.

Who amongst us suggest that all things important to us humans can be reduced to info containing only the above?

If there are realities facing us humans, per our actual existence, which cannot be dumbed down to, or answered by, a numerical data stream, then it follows that every challenge we humans face cannot be posited in a neat question, nor yet answered directly with said data.

That means those demanding that we do so are in fact "tap dancing" over the gray areas in our lives, wanting simple, "direct" and largely worthless answers to human concerns that cannot be addressed with "solutions" drawn merely from engineering, AI data banks, QM, geololgy, evolution, and so forth. As they say, applying engineering to existential concerns is like "singing for architecture." Wrong response. Wrong place.

This is also expecting technology - one of our great endowments - to be the end-all, rather than a tool.

All approaches have limitations. To believe otherwise is to think in black and white terms, insisting the vast gray areas to be one or the other.

But they ain't.

JL

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
===
The Bible throughout the OT and NT is very clear on the subject of homosexuality.

Q: What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?
A: A lot. Yes, it’s a sin, so therefore don’t do it.
http://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-Bible.html

Q: What does the Bible say about gay marriage / same sex marriage?
A: Don’t do it. Don’t do it. It’s a sin.
http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html

Q: Can a person be born gay?
A: No. Not really.
http://www.gotquestions.org/born-gay.html

Q: Why are Christians homophobic?
A: True Christians aren’t.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-homophobic.html

=

#1 and #2 are pretty clear in the Old Testament.
I'll have to take your word for it about the New Testament, I could care less about what it says. All I care about is what living people say and do.

But let's look at the logic.
Assuming #1 and #2 are true, then "True Christians" must, by any reasonable definition, believe homosexuals are sinners.

As for the ridiculous claim #3, we now have strong scientific proof that people's sexual orientation of all flavors is NOT an "acquired taste"

And #4
"True Christians aren't" (homophobic)
If you want to include not homophobic as a condition for being a True Christian, good for you. You'll find a large number, possibly a majority, of self described "True Christians" who are homophobic. Most of those aren't likely to come out and say it.
However, that's one tide that is turning, fortunately and surprisingly, very quickly.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
largo

I don't think you are understanding, we are asking for clear communication, not a clear answer to "the question".

If I were to re-write the above post in a clear manner I would simply say.

"We cannot answer all questions using the scientific method"

A statement I completely disagree with. Just because we cannot answer the question right now using the scientific method does not mean that it cannot be answered with the scientific method.

There are scientific fields of study, such as the study of consciences, that do not even propose to answer the questions because they know this already. They understand they are looking at the problem from within a conscience mind (or not) and they are not objective enough to apply the scientific method to the findings. It is a subjective subjective. BUT!! There are many theories, very sound and logical theories which make a lot of sense, some are in direct opposition to each other, others compliment each other. They are all continuing and preparing for a time when the scientific method and experimentation can be applied to find out which is true or if any of them are.

To state that the scientific method is unable to answer, deal with or handle a question shows a complete lack of the actual process. If you are unable to apply the method to a question then you still lack a means of experiment or a method to gather the data you need. Science is built up, it climbs upon itself, those who came before provide the tools and foundation for future findings that would have been impossible without the previous work. It is not built on assumptions, testimony, feelings or wild guesses, only solid reproducible data. That is the nature of the scientific method and therefor no one can say, %100, that a question is out of reach...

Largo, give me an example of one question you feel will never be answered by science and cannot be answered by science..
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
T*R LIVES ON!

t*r

Trad climber
Galilee

Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 13, 2009 - 03:57pm PT



christmas - jesus is born, we get presents

easter - jesus dies, we get candy

what's the problem?
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
One, I'd like to thank Largo for his intelligent posts. It is easy to sling insults, but hard to put one's self out there and share your beliefs knowing that, particularly in this forum, they'll likely be received with jibes and slander.

Two, regarding squishy's comment:
"We cannot answer all questions using the scientific method"

A statement I completely disagree with. Just because we cannot answer the question right now using the scientific method does not mean that it cannot be answered with the scientific method.
Religion is a matter of faith, not reason. Not all things are quantifiable, measurable, empirical. How do you prove love or envy or arrogance, or measure it, or test it? Does that mean it does not exist? You can try to force those things out through a personality test, but that is a reductionist view of human experience. Your insistence on such an approach, and others failure to respond in that manner, does not make you right. That is just the paradigm through which you've chosen to view that issue. Unless you accept the fundamental truth that religion is not science, and therefore religion cannot be proven or disproven through scientific means.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
On a scale of 1 to 10. 1 being the believers in a 6,000 year old planet and 10 being me, a complete atheist and skeptic of everything.[sic]

Squishy, I think a skeptic of everything would be an agnostic, not an atheist.

John
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
I still can clearly remember even back then studying the "Scientific Method" of testing, quantifying, and then peer reviewing critically all of the emotions of love, envy, and arrogance among many others.
Norton, you believe there is a method of objectively quantifying love? I understand you can provide a test that the test giver believes will obtain some data on a person's emotions, but do you believe those tests are a genuine measurement of such a powerful emotion? Can they measure and explain the pain over the loss of a child, what you would sacrifice for a spouse, parent, sibling, child? It's my belief that soft sciences purport to do more than they can actually accomplish.

Ultimately, when looking at testing like this, I am reminded of Oscar Wilde's comment about cynics: they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
a skeptic of everything would be an agnostic, not an atheist.
Ironically, it takes a "leap of faith" to go from agnostic to atheist. When skepticism turns to certainty.
At least in my case. I finally had to say to myself "Why are you afraid to totally let go of the God thing? To let go of the skepticism that you can trust rational thought and experience?" and I had no rational answer. I suspect this is in the line of Einstein's evolution from Theist to deist to atheist.
One has to finally have "faith" that reason, ethics and science are sufficient to explain the universe we inhabit. To accept and embrace that however long man exists, science and reason will ALWAYS lead to more questions. That we can never be all knowing (Godlike).
It takes a "leap of faith" to acknowledge that just because reason and science can't explain everything (ever) there's absolutely no rational need for any kind of supreme being(s).
Even a structure of ethics can be worked out rationally with some help from fundamental human emotions.
You just have to be brave, let go of skepticism and finally understand there is no god.
Ironic indeed.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23672150
We are now close to understanding near death "mystical" experiences from a neurological framework.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
For me, as an agnostic with a personal ontological view closer to zen buddhism than anything else, it's very simple:

I don't know, and you don't either, but we're all going to find out.

Why hate it? The arrogance of pretending they DO know, and attempting to dictate how I live my life based upon that conceit.

Aside from that, it's fairly well established that intelligence is directly correlated with tendency toward religiosity, with the smart folks being atheists and agnostics, and the dipshits being fundies of one stripe or another.
Jawon

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Can we move away from the notion that Christians don't like/understand/appreciate science? Not true. Sure some do, but lets not over generalize.

As a Christian, I believe in God's creation story. And because he is the creator, he also created science. It should all jive and I believe it does. Sometimes we give science too much credit (because we can kinda understand it), sometimes we don't give the bible enough (because the stories seem like fables). And we end up with this gap in between and think we have to choose one side or the other.

I think science and the bible go beautifully hand in hand together. They do NOT conflict. I cannot account for every single topic, but I do have some information on some common questions. Like the age of the earth, origin of man. I won't go into details, but if you're curious I think the information is a click or bookstore away.

I'm a statistical analyst. I deal with "scientific methods". And you know what, I can make the numbers say whatever I want. Really. I'm not saying science is all a lie, just that we've gotten comfortable ignoring the "margin of error" that exists with EVERY scientific test and discovery.

Again, I'm not poo-pooing science. I'm pro-science, but I'm pro-bible too. It's not an oxymoron and there are more of us out there, so please don't assume Christians are giving up their intellect. In fact, it takes incredible intelligence and openness to look for where science and the bible complement each other. Try it. It may just rock your world.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
You people are hung up on the material aspect of the Law..
But the bible is a spiritual manual and if not read with spiritual eyes one cannot gain understanding. Take for example, "thou shalt not steal". Everyone can say its not good to take something that belongs to someone else. Materialisticly it sucks because now the victim must replace what was taken. But what happens spiritually. The victim gets pissed becomes untrusting, and revengeful. This is the real crime. As for the thief, he is portraying decietfulness, greed, arrogance. ALL negatives in the spiritual world! Do you think God cares about some dumb "thing" that was stolen? No. He cares about the seperatedness the victim and thief now posses. And how hard it will be to reconcile this difference.

Here's the tough ones; jesus taught, If i look upon a woman with lustful eyes, i have committed
adultery in my heart. Which is sin upon my soul. And how about; if I curse my brother with profane language, I commit murder in my heart. For you materialist you will never comprehend these lessons of the spirit. For the spiritual seekers who meditate on these spiritual lessons conclude that these are in fact positively good for the soul and the community.
Lots of times it's easiest to reach spiritual enlightenment by just saying NO to some physical actions!

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
one more post and I'm gonna make like a tree and leave.

Two days ago I wrote some pretty severe criticisms of the Mormon religion. I'm sure at least one reader was offended. Jennie, I offer my apologies. While I criticize various religions, I try to be rational and historically accurate as well as skeptical.
Because the Mormon faith arose in modern times, there is a fairly complete historical record and the salient facts are known. Interpreting the facts can legitimately lead to differing opinions, especially of someone else's beliefs and motives.
I still firmly believe what I said in my first post to this thread. Everyone has a right to their own faith. I respect that and try to judge no one except by their behavior, including speech and writings.

So an anecdote.
My wife and I (at the same event where we ran into my polygamist high school cohort and 4 of his 6 wives, including the 15 year old with a year old baby) were walking around Salt Lake City in the Saturday evening and heard great gospel music coming from the Salt Palace. We dropped in on the last of a gospel convention and learned that this choir would be singing at the Tabernacle the next morning.
So we got up early, put on our best clothes and walked the 3 blocks to the Tabernacle. The gospel singers happened to be all black women and were GREAT. For a couple of songs some Tabernacle Choir women (all white) joined in. They had that old place ROCKING! And they were having FUN, which of course is what gospel music is all about.
Unfortunately, a lot of the "tourists" in attendance were clearly puzzled and some left shortly after arriving. We stayed for the whole concert, one of the highlights of our trip.

PS: all of XX's wives wore name tags of "Mrs XX #1", "Mrs XX #4" etc. XX was totally out about the arrangement.

PPS: my particular interest in the Mormon faith comes from growing up non-Mormon and going to university in Salt Lake. At that time the Mormon faith had much more influence over the local culture, mores and social relationships than it does now.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
Aside from that, it's fairly well established that intelligence is directly correlated with tendency toward religiosity, with the smart folks being atheists and agnostics, and the dipshits being fundies of one stripe or another.

No need for specifics here. Generalities are so much more fun!

John
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
"A purely rational and true atheist would lie, steal, and kill more often than the rest of society... For the individual in a godless world, cheating on the social contract often returns more benefit than cost...
I think that most who proclaim to be atheists still secretly believe in karma driven by supernatural forces."

Nonsense. (1) Cooperation and honesty, in addition to competitivity, are selected for by evolution and natural selection. (2) If there's any "karma" at work, then (a) it's of a purely natural sort, (b) and it would be along the lines of tit for tat according to game theory in evolutionary terms.

Then again perhaps you speak for yourself? Or those whom you know? Maybe better watch out, perhaps a "tit" or "tat" is coming.

Can't believe the ignorance around here. I should take HT's advice and make like a tree.

.....

Can we move away from the notion that Christians don't like/understand/appreciate science?

No. Only ignorance provides the refuge you seek. As there simply is no room for "God" Jesus in the physics, chemistry, biology and history, esp evolutionary history, of life. Time to update your beliefs? Maybe?

Only you know how much coursework you've had in the aforementioned subjects. But that's where the modern worldview starts, at least in terms of facts.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
…..secretly believe in karma driven by supernatural forces
absolutely not. (I was going to be vulgar but thought better of it).

One could argue that Karma represents the reflected affects of your social interactions. Behave in a positive and friendly way, help others, etc, and people will in turn treat you better.
D'oh!
In other words "Do unto others….." has a rational, not supernatural basis.

As does "Covent not they neighbor's wife" because the social results are likely negative for all parties.

etc.

Dyam, I said I wasn't going to post anymore.
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
So the scientist wanted to predict the flight of a baseball hit in a baseball game. As soon as the ball was hit, he ran out on to the field with his thermometer to measure the flight, but he was unsuccessful. Largo and friends were enjoying the day with beers, popcorn and some fun discursive banter. "Ha!" They cried, "It is impossible to measure the flight of a baseball! Science can't do it. Only the mind of an outfielder can do it after years of hard introspective work."

The scientist, fool that he was, kept at it for awhile, but eventually he gave up on the thermometer, since it did not seem to be helping and he had no dogma or faith that required him to continue using the thermometer. He tried some other instruments and they didn't work either, so he gave up on those. Eventually he just started watching the outfielders eyes and body positions as they ran to catch the ball.

Surprisingly, outfielders are very consistent in catching balls over and over. The scientist thought to himself, if they can catch the ball over and over, then perhaps there is some pattern they recognize or principle that they can follow to accurately intercept the ball each time. What is it that they are seeing or following? He started asking the outfielder questions, "Were they doing calculations as they ran? Were they talking a lot to themselves? Were their minds sort of silent as they ran? Did they know exactly where the ball was going to land when they started running to catch it? Did they try to keep the ball fixed in the same area of their vision as they ran?

At that point he did not have any definite answers but he thought he was making progress. Plus, he was getting a lot of good exercise running around with the outfielders. Maybe he will figure out how to predict the flight of a baseball, maybe not, but he keeps asking questions and giving up on stuff that does not help, so I think he might figure it out eventually.
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Jawon wrote,
I'm not saying science is all a lie, just that we've gotten comfortable ignoring the "margin of error" that exists with EVERY scientific test and discovery.

I think this is a very good point that should be made more explicit if we really want to understand the world around us. In a physics class I took a few years ago, I was surprised at how the margin of error was glossed over. That is not something inherent in physics, but it is an easy error to make when teaching physics. The margin of error should always be acknowledged as best we can. The gray areas as Largo says.

But if you say that a gray area or margin of error is explained by a religious or mystical means without admitting the gray areas of those explanations, then you compound the problem.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:18pm PT

Over the centuries, Christianity has accomplished much which is deserving of praise. Its institutions have fed the hungry, sheltered the homeless, and advocated for the poor. Christian faith has sustained people through crisis and inspired many to work for social justice.

Yet although the word "Christian" connotes the epitome of goodness, the actual story is much more complex. Over the last two millennia, ruling elites have used Christian institutions and values to control those less privileged throughout the world. The doctrine of Christianity has been interpreted to justify the killing of millions, and its leaders have used their faith to sanction participation in colonialism, slavery, and genocide. In the Western world, Christian influence has inspired legislators to continue to limit women's reproductive rights and has kept lesbians and gays on the margins of society. [*note: just a few]

As our triple crises of war, financial meltdown, and environmental destruction intensify, it is imperative that we dig beneath the surface of Christianity's benign reputation to examine its contribution to our social problems. Living in the Shadow of the Cross reveals the ongoing, everyday impact of Christian power and privilege on our beliefs, behaviors, and public policy, and emphasizes the potential for people to come together to resist domination and build and sustain communities of justice and peace.

*Paul Kivel is the award-winning author of Uprooting Racism and the director of the Christian Hegemony Project. He is a social justice activist and educator who has focused on the issues of violence prevention, oppression, and social justice for over forty-five years.
…………………………………………………………

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before. Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe; forward into battle see his banners go! Hell's foundations quiver at the shout of praise; brothers, lift your voices, loud your anthems raise. As our mighty army moves the church of God; brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod. We are not divided, all one body we, one in hope and doctrine.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:19pm PT

One could argue that Karma represents the reflected affects of your social interactions. Behave in a positive and friendly way, help others, etc, and people will in turn treat you better.

This usually works when it's socially accepted. But you still could get mauled by a tiger.

A tit for a tat only works in the material world! Like ying and yang. But has nothing to do with spirituality. You guys are looking with ur eyes not with your heart.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Please explain how stupidity is a result of evolution and natural selection. I doubted you could provide an answer.

And your point? Are you arguing that humanity is evolving toward being more stupid? I rather doubt that any competent examination of humanity would support that conclusion. Well, I could offer the California Legislature as evidence of collective stupidity, but that's merely anecdotal.

Natural selection predicts that organisms with traits helpful to survival will do better than organisms without those traits. Neither evolution nor natural selection alone explain or predict how less desirable traits come about, or why organisms exhibit their variations.

I think Dave Kos makes a good point about using game theory, natural selection and evolution as a basis for analyzing human behavior in a group of atheists.

Of course, none of this is germane to the original topic, but this is, after all, SuperTopo.

John
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:55pm PT

In the Western world, Christian influence has inspired legislators to continue to limit women's reproductive rights and has kept lesbians and gays on the margins of society.

Here again we aren't seeing eye to eye. Going to the polls to vote, and into the streets with signs and voiced opinions is everyone's right! And what ur not understanding is we're not voting to restrain anyone's rights!! Contrary, we are voting for the right of those 660,000 fetuses that were killed last year to have the opportunity to continue THEIR life.

And to vote for the sanctimony of "marriage" meaning the joining of two to become as one to procreate thus continuing the evolution of mankind.

Without a doubt Christians have more concern and compassion towards all mankind and the evolution of nature than the atheist can comprehend. Without the understanding of a plan, the atheist has no past to draw from and no future to aspire to. Other than his own self image.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
A purely rational and true atheist would lie, steal, and kill more often than the rest of society.

What a load of whore's sh#t.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Dingus Milktoast


Aug 13, 2013 - 06:44am PT
What human need does religion satisfy?

What human need does faith satisfy?

DMT

Fear of the unknown and hope for a better life.

Hope, fear, and money makes the world go around.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
According to goatboy's movie clip (love it when people use fantasy/fiction to support religious views), hope needs to be contained. How is hope for eternal peace in heaven "contained" in any imaginable way?
mdavid

Big Wall climber
High Springs, FL
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
An agnostic or atheist who doesn't cheat, steal, murder, rape or commit crimes has arrived at that position due to having ethics and morals, not due to concern about an omniscient being punishing them...you can decide which is better.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
How is hope for eternal peace in heaven "contained" in any imaginable way?

With Hope glasses.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
An agnostic or atheist who doesn't cheat, steal, murder, rape or commit crimes has arrived at that position due to having ethics and morals, not due to concern about an omniscient being punishing them...you can decide which is better.

I think you're assuming the existence of those ethics and morals in atheists and agnostics. Dave is trying to determine how they would exist, if one believes in atheism. I think too many of you are taking personally his analysis, without offering a rational alternative explanation.

If there is no supernatural anything or anyone, why would anyone act in any way other than his or her perceived self-interest? If that is true, why would one not "cheat" unless one were concerned about getting caught?

I think from a societal point of view, I can easily see how natural selection of a society would favor one where its members play by the rules, and that those rules would favor honesty over dishonesty. Dave's question is what would prevent people from cheating other than a fear of getting caught?

Again, he's not saying that all atheists are cheaters. I understand his posts to ask what mechanism produces behavior consistent with the good of a group, rather than that of an individual, in the absence of a belief in some sort of supernatural enforcement of justice.

John
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
Bump for a divided, boring supertopo.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
An agnostic or atheist who doesn't cheat, steal, murder, rape or commit crimes has arrived at that position due to having ethics and morals, not due to concern about an omniscient being punishing them...you can decide which is better.
This is a poor assumption. Your premise seems to confirm a personal belief that atheists do not perform bad acts because of morals, whereas as people who believe in religion do so solely out of fear of some godly or supernatural retribution. Are you contending that atheists are simply better people?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Yes. We are better people.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Dave is trying to determine how they would exist, if one believes in atheism.

Nobody "believes" in atheism. Atheists don't believe in not believing in a deity... that is just silly.

Dave's question is what would prevent people from cheating other than a fear of getting caught?

That is because his is the only motive religious people can comprehend... an all knowing god punishing them for their misdeeds. I don't believe in god one single bit, and I would not cheat, steal, or murder even if I was 100% sure I could get away with it.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
And to vote for the sanctimony of "marriage" meaning the joining of two to become as one to procreate thus continuing the evolution of mankind.

Without a doubt Christians have more concern and compassion towards all mankind and the evolution of nature than the atheist can comprehend. Without the understanding of a plan, the atheist has no past to draw from and no future to aspire to. Other than his own self image.

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth...
dirtbag

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
My favorite movies have always been the ones where the Romans feed the Christians to the lions.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Largo, give me an example of one question you feel will never be answered by science and cannot be answered by science..


I have family here and a girl visiting later and I got up at 6 to go to the sangha this morning and I'm kinder bushed so I can't do this question justice just now. So just a quick pass . . .

Regular answers are worthless here for various reasons. What I can do is walk you through a step by step process where you can answer the question for yourself. If I just jotted out what I was talking about without you seeing for yourself what I meant (and I'm talking about looking at perception at a basic level, NOT wrangling "God" or spirits), you would never understand it. Nobody can, becausde it's experiential, not conceptual.

Basically, when you say "science," what you mean is the systematic application of discursive reasoning to some person, place or thing in our experience. To do so you must first isolate out what it is you are talking about, which requires your/our perception to do certain things in certain ways. Specifically, what it is we want to address with our "science" must become the "figure" or the thing we are concentrating on, while all else fades into "ground." Imagine a photo where the figue is in perfect focus and everything else is blurred. Remember we can only pay close attention to ONE thng at a time: the figure.

Understanding the mechanics of how this happens, perceptually, is the first baby step in experiencing what it is that lies beyond figure/ground. But lest you get a grip of how the discursive works, you cannot possibly understand or even fathom where it runs out of utility, so to speak. That is, were discursive methods are no longer useful.

There is to my knowledge no other way to truly answer what you just asked but through emperical testing of perception itself. It is not a simple question, by a long shot. But we can all come to know the terrain, a process that is pretty straightforward and takes little time.

JL
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
The history of understanding an ethical/moral framework without need for a religious basis goes back to Darwin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_ethics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism

Philosophers, psychologists, scientists and even economists have been studying the question for years and there are a lot of good theories explaining how it can work.

A little thought brings you to the chicken and egg problem posed by ethics derived from religion.
Which came first? Have humans evolved the way we have BECAUSE ethical behavior has evolutionary benefits? And then religious stories were created to reflect or enforce these ethics?

or did a supreme being reveal his/her/its ethics to prophets and they've managed to coax most of us into line?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
My favorite movies have always been the ones where the Romans feed the Christians to the lions.
Not the movies where the christian Germans feed the Jews to the ovens?
or the Roman Catholic Inquisitors put heretics on the rack and tore them to pieces?
or the Roman Catholic conquistadors gave the American natives the choice to convert or be slaughtered, man, woman and child?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Sorry, but to be an Atheist requires belief, requires faith. You believe in an idea, a world view, that clearly states there is no G-d, yet you can't prove that statement of faith.

You are scientifically unable to prove that there is no G-d. Can't be done if you know the scientific method. Remember in science, the scientific method is used to invalidate hypotheses. It is a tool. It's a powerful tool. But it can't answer all questions. You can't prove a negative. You can't prove evidence of absence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence


However, I can prove that the Bible, (what we believe to be the word of G-d) is very historically accurate through many means of physical evidence, archaeology, Biblical archaeology, prophecy (the ability to predict the future accurately and precisely) and that the Bible states many scientific concepts and ideas 1000s of years prior to modern science discovery these same concepts, these same scientific truths, that were first mentioned in the Bible. As time goes on the evidence just keeps building that G-d's word is true. There are no falsifying invalid statements within it.

Gee, they recently found Sodom and Gomorrah and the evidence is overwhelming that its destruction came from above! Meteoritic. Just like the Good Book says it happened. I can go on and on ...

HaShem is way, way ahead of mankind. C-mon he's G-d. He's El Shaddai. He's HaShem Adonai Elohim, the creator of the Universe, all things, and time.

As G-d says to Job, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth? Tell me if you have understanding?" (paraphrasing)

C'mon, you're gonna argue with G-d, the G-d he who made you? Get real.

Believers must have faith, but that faith is based on personal experience, testimony of reliable witnesses, and mountains of verifying physical evidence that keeps stacking up. G-d does not expect us to throw our brains away to believe in him. He gives us ample evidence that we sometimes have to struggle to find, and understand and we do. And he likes that we do. Now we have faith built on evidence. Now that's very, very powerful. Life changing in fact.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Sorry, but to be an Atheist requires belief, requires faith. You believe in an idea, a world view, that clearly states there is no G-d, yet you can't prove that statement of faith.

Rubbish. You assume it requires faith because your entire world view requires faith... you can't comprehend a world without faith. Atheism is the absence of belief in deities... it has nothing to do with faith in anything.

Back to the original question... stupid sh#t like that written by klimmer is why I hate christians.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Rubbish. You assume it requires faith because your entire world view requires faith... you can't comprehend a world without faith.


Dude, you use faith all the time. Every time you tie in and hope your friend is going to belay you properly and give proper attention, you are exercising faith.


To believe there is no G-d without any way of proving it, is the definition of faith. Atheism is a faith based religion of "No G-d."



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Faith:

b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
Stop twisting others into your belief-based world view. Atheism is the absence of belief in deities, NOT the belief there is not god. Two entirely different things. I know you won't understand, you are incapable of understanding anything beyond your narrow world view.

Again, this is why I hate christians.

P.S. I don't "completely trust" anyone or anything, therefore I do not use faith... ever. I use trust based on experience and likelihood... it is NEVER complete.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Atheism is the absence of belief in deities, NOT the belief there is not god.


Dr. Christ,

That is 100% Bovine Dung.

You just lost all your brothers from "The First Church of Atheism." They have now excommunicated you. Lol.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
You are an idiot.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Back to the original question... stupid sh#t like that written by klimmer is why I hate christians.
Classy. Solid point.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Dr. Christ and other atheists,

You better bone up on your faith ...



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

athe·ism noun \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\

Definition of ATHEISM

1
archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity



Which obviously can't be proved. So if it can't be proved, then to believe it you are exercising faith.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
From the Wiki page for Atheism:

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist

Pretty much what Dr. Christ posted.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
[2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.


Mono,

Seems you're embarrassed by your faith and trying to somehow worm out of it?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
god I hate idiotic christians like klimmer... always defining and interpreting things in the narrowest way possible to suit their desires... with their self-righteous heads so far up their asses they convince themselves they get to redefine how others see the world.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Seems like Klimmer has logic issues, which leads to beliefs like arks on the moon, and evil angels f*#king human women.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Lol. You guys are proving my own points. Too funny.



Edit:


Prove your faith to me. Prove G-d doesn't exist. Prove your case.

I can give you ample evidence that the Bible is historically accurate. Therefore, my faith is built on a means of evidence. What's yours built on?


A: Nothing.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
your point clearly being that you are an idiot
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
Narrower, is not inclusive, Klimmer, but you will have issues understanding that.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
I think it could be informative - to say the least - to watch a conversation ensue between Klimmer, Micronut and Cragman. For two or three pages while the rest of us sit back and take it in. Seriously. I think.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
We already had an exchange between Cragman and Klimmer about who was holiest.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
Prove your faith to me. Prove G-d doesn't exist. Prove your case.

I can give you ample evidence that the Bible is historically accurate. Therefore, my faith is built on a means of evidence. What's yours built on?


A: Nothing.





ttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

athe·ism noun \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\

Definition of ATHEISM

1
archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity



Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Oh yeah? How'd I miss that one? Must've been on the ark thread or the like. Who won?

I'm inclined to say Cragman but then again Klimmer never quits.

Link after link after link... bs after bs after bs... Here it is four years later and he's still going off on how Newton (17th c) and Einstein were religious, lol!
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Which obviously can't be proved. So if it can't be proved, then to believe it you are exercising faith.

Sorry, that is a bullshit argument and has been discussed in many books. Check out "The God Delusion" if you really want to know what Atheists think of god concepts. Arguments against atheism and their counter arguments are addressed very well in the book.

Everyone takes stuff on faith. It doesn't mean that there is a god.

Dave

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
No winners,HFCS, they just fade away. It was great entertainment.

Just like when Tony Bird and Klimmer had at it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
Sorry, but to be an Atheist requires belief, requires faith.
You've got it all backwards. To be a christian requires belief and faith, without substantive rational foundation.
To be an atheist is to not accept unsubstantiated religious claims (faith). And to move on.
I said earlier that in a sense it takes a leap of faith to abandon theism/deism/christianity/voodoo/agnosticism and accept that the rational, scientific explanations of existence, incomplete as they are and to have no need for magical beings and ethics derived from them.
It's not a "faith" in rationality, it is understanding that there is a concrete universe with concrete explanations of how it works. There are rational bases for ethics that transcend ancient myths.

Have YOU ever believed the Greek mythology? Good stories, some of them reasonable ethical examples, fascinating exposes of human behavior then and now. The Greeks built beautiful temples and statues to honor their gods.
So where are Zeus and Athena? Pan, Nyads, Dryads, Nymphs, Satyrs, Apollo?
Is Sysiphus still pushing the rock uphill? Are Hades and Cerberus still guarding the gates of Hell?

or have you finally decided that is all nonsense, without physical reality and no longer necessary for our moral and ethical systems? And that it never really existed.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
If you have a belief that is based on evidence, then that requires no faith.


Wrong. We can prove the Bible is reliable and accurate, that it can be trusted. Can we prove all of it? No.

It requires some exercise in faith. In fact, without faith we can not please G-d.



Hebrews 11:6
New International Version (NIV)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.



But he does give us evidence to rely on that can and does bolster our faith. He doesn't require from us blind faith, but faith built on trust.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Klimmer keeps chasing his tail.

Just because you have evidence about some things you believe (like historical evidence of Jesus) does not meant you have evidence for everything you believe (like is part of a deity).
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
So how many members do you guys have in The First Church of Atheism? What do you have to believe to become a member?


Lol.



Oh yea, we already answered that question, you have to believe that there is no G-d.

Well, at least it is faith based, because you can't prove it. Lol.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Just because you have evidence about some things you believe (like historical evidence of Jesus) does not meant you have evidence for everything you believe (like is part of a deity).


Mono,


You are right mostly. I believe because much of it is verifiable with physical historical evidence and much more. Can I prove all that I believe? No.

So I trust G-d and believe in him because what he says is true. 100%. He hasn't let me down. Too many personal experiences and circumstances verify he is here and everywhere in a very personal way. I've witnessed it in my own life and in other people's lives. It changes you for the better, and for ever.



I agree with Einstein ...


“Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”


― Albert Einstein, The World as I See It


And he does so, so that we have to exercise faith and trust in him. Without which we can't please him.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
christian [sic] Germans feed the Jews to the ovens?
I'm glad you didn't capitalize the "c" in Christian, because in no way were the Nazis acting as Christians. I'm sure there were plenty of individual believing, practicing Christians who went along, either out of fear or out of evil. After all, Christian doctrine says we continue to sin in this world (See, e.g., 1 John 1:8). Tarring all Christians with that sin makes as much sense as tarring all Muslims with 9/11, or all Jews with the bombing of the King David Hotel, or all atheists with the mass murders committed under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

Wes, only agnosticism reflects a lack of faith, because an agnostic, by definition, admits he or she doesn't know. An atheist claims there is no god. How does one know this? How does one prove this, scientifically or otherwise?

Perhaps it comes down to an issue of epistemology or statistical inference. Atheism is merely a null hypothesis (to a classical statistician) or a prior distribution (to a Bayesian). Proving non-existence of God requires much more than any contributor to this thread or, to my knowledge, any other human, has been able to provide.

John
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
The World As I See It
Composed of assorted articles, addresses, letters, interviews and pronouncements published before 1935
Clearly by 1954 his beliefs are different than you claim. After living through the holocaust and WWII and having derived some of the fundamental physics for the Atomic bomb. Having a decade of reflection on the consequences of history and his part in it.
Or do you believe that scientists' thoughts and beliefs are immutable throughout their lifetimes?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
"god" would have to show up right now and do some incredible "miracles" that are so unbelievable such as draining the world's oceans in two seconds, stuff like that

THEN that would be very strong evidence that this god exists and should be believed as a god

anything short of that is,,,,,,,,faith,,,,,just like children have faith Santa will come in December



Norton,

G-d won't do that yet. At some point in time he does, near the end of this dispensation of time, but only after everyone has had the chance, the time to come to faith and believe in him. Everyone is given a chance in some way in their lives, and he doesn't use the same criteria for everyone. G-d is fair and just. An aboriginal in the deep dark rain-forest is not held to the same account as I am, someone who has had access to the word of G-d my entire life.

He doesn't want anyone to perish. If he came back right now many would be lost who don't believe.

He's going to give signs of his return as he said he would. We are getting there. As I said before, many Atheists will come to know G-d at the end. G-d is very forgiving. They will believe because of all the terrible things that are happening around them, that they heard would happen. Nothing like the evidence of prophecy coming true right before your very eyes to make you believe and turn to G-d, even at the very last moments. Many will turn to G-d at the end. And then many won't.

When he does come in great glory for all the world to see, he comes in judgement. Game over. No more time to pick sides, and if you picked the side that opposes him, if you picked poorly, well its not gonna be good.

At this time right now, He's not going to come down and say here I am for all the world to see, forcing himself on us. He doesn't act that way. That would be forcing you to believe against your will.

Prophecy has to be fulfilled. The word of G-d has to be fulfilled. He is true to his word.

He wants you to come to him out of love, and needing him, and trust, not fear. Although a little fear is a good thing. Makes us straighten up and behave as we should.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
When he does come in great glory for all the world to see, he comes in judgement. Game over. No more time to pick sides, and if you picked the side that opposes him, if you picked poorly, well its not gonna be good.




Not to sound too light about all this ...

But I mean it in light fun ...


"He chose poorly"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DGFuHC75aY


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
Because they don't use reason.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
John
I'm sure there were plenty of individual believing, practicing Christians who went along, either out of fear or out of evil
Indeed, I was not tarring all christians in Germany as there is little concrete evidence.

Here's some of what the Holocaust Museum has to say:
The population of Germany in 1933 was around 60 million. Almost all Germans were Christian, belonging either to the Roman Catholic (ca. 20 million members) or the Protestant (ca. 40 million members) churches. The Jewish community in Germany in 1933 was less than 1% of the total population of the country.
So if nearly all Germans were Christians, why were they largely silent about the holocaust Which They Knew Was Happening (this is well documented).
The racialized anti-Jewish Nazi ideology converged with antisemitism that was historically widespread throughout Europe at the time and had deep roots in Christian history. For all too many Christians, traditional interpretations of religious scriptures seemed to support these prejudices.
most Christians in Germany welcomed the rise of Nazism in 1933. They were also persuaded by the statement on “positive Christianity” in Article 24 of the 1920 Nazi Party Platform, which read:
"We demand the freedom of all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not jeopardize the state's existence or conflict with the manners and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The Party as such upholds the point of view of a positive Christianity without tying itself confessionally to any one confession. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit at home and abroad and is convinced that a permanent recovery of our people can only be achieved from within on the basis of the common good before individual good."
The Nazi propaganda machine was very very clever about delivering the message in a way that would let Christians off the hook.
throughout this period there was virtually no public opposition to antisemitism or any readiness by church leaders to publicly oppose the regime on the issues of antisemitism and state-sanctioned violence against the Jews. There were individual Catholics and Protestants who spoke out on behalf of Jews, and small groups within both churches that became involved in rescue and resistance activities (for example, the White Rose and Herman Maas).

There were of course many Germans who aided the Jews to hide or escape. And lets not forget the homosexuals, Communists, Muslims and Romas (gypsies) who vanished. Round up the usual suspects.

Pope Pius XII was ambivalent at best.
For example
In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing.(5)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

There is plenty of blood on Pius XII's hands.
The Church of course sees it differently:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/controversies/pope-pius-xii-and-the-holocaust/ No author attributed.
I'll take the Holocaust Museum's version of history. They have little or nothing to gain from it either way.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 14, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Do you assert that there is no god or supernatural influences of any sort?

Too vague. Let's get down to brass tacks. As an atheist, I don't pray to, worship, or "testify to" the actual existence of a fictional character called "God," who was dreamed up by a deeply troubled, probably schizophrenic dude named Abraham. I view this God character as a mythological, purely imaginary being, cobbled together and distilled from previous purely imaginary beings generically known as "Sky Gods" who were the go-to explanation for all the shite people had no rational understanding of way back when. This God character was perpetuated by the many social and political uses to which He could be put during the past five thousand years, give or take. His "existence" is no different from that of Batman or Holden Caulfield. Like them, he's got his own subculture of devoted followers out there. They act a little crazy sometimes, and should no longer be allowed to write laws for other people based on their fanboy crush. Other than that, whatever gets them through the night.
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
Hey guys,

Just thought I'd check in after being away for a couple days. Not much new here other than a bunch of slander and yall talking in circles. This would be a way cooler discussion in person. I'm out for now, but if anybody ever has any sincere questions about Christianity and wants some straight answers from a guy who's life has been changed by Christ and tries humbly to serve Him in all he does, feel free to email me or stop me in Tuolumne this weekend or some of the upcoming weekends.

I always like talking about faith and religion and atheism and worldview, but its more enjoyable when people listen to eachother. I'll leave with this. People hating Christians goes back to the beginning of the faith. Its nothing new.

To answer the OP. "WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE CHRISTIANITY SO MUCH?"

It's been asked a couple thousand years ago and answered succinctly by The Man himself.

"If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first."
-John 15:18

Adios,
Climb Hard and Climb Often. Check your knots and enjoy the summit.

Scott
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Vague question. "supernatural influences of any sort"... what? The talk here is mostly about the Christian God, so that's what I answered about. But if you want to expand it to the whole wide realm of Imaginationland, I guess the answer would still be the same. No fairies at the bottom of the garden. Just wishful thinking. Sure would be nice, though. I can certainly see the attraction.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
What happened to the Germans who were not silent?
Some of them, including Einstein (1933), moved out of Germany well before 1939.
The Nazi views on Jews was expressed as early as 1920.

In the face of atrocity, doesn't Christian doctrine generally expect you to speak up?
Or is it silent on the topic?

The Germans had plenty of warning. Hitler wrote the National Socialist Manifesto in early 1920. Point 4:
Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
At this time the Nazi party (called DAP) was tiny. By the end of 1920 they had 3000 members.

only 8 years after Mein Kampf the Nazi party became the largest party in the Reichstag.
On 20 July 1932, the Prussian government was ousted by a coup—the Preussenschlag, and a few days later at the July 1932 Reichstag election the Nazis made another leap forward, polling 37.4% and becoming the largest party in the Reichstag by a wide margin.
12million voters, most of them Christians voted for the openly anti-semitic Nazi party.
Did any Christian church leaders speak up?
Hitler was appointed Chancellor in January 1933. THEN he had the power of the government.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
Show me a real, non-imaginary god, and I'll believe in it.
---


If you met same you wouldn't have to "believe," any more than you'd have to believe in an astroid if it hit you in the head.

But I'm curious about two things:

A: By "non-imaginary" do you mean physical? Something you can get hold of with your sense organs?

B: In the absence of physical proof, of the kind of Gradpappy God who gets straw-dogged here to no end, do you believe that the only option left is some thing conjured by your imagination? Some "fairy at the bottom of the garden," whatever that is.

To a physicalist, real and material are interchangable. And from a discursive standpoint, that makes perfect sense. I'm reminded of an argument I read recently on Naked Science Forum.

"It would appear that, in fact, no one knows 'how' gravity works. As Phracticality says, we use the term 'field,' which is nothing but a mathematical description, and yet evan_au (phyics prof MIT) talks about fields 'vibrating' which seems to imply a real "thing."

It can be argued that 'gravity' and 'field' and 'graviton' etc are terms like 'dark energy' - place holder words at best - which don't have any 'real' meaning at all.

Per the above, 'real' is of course, physical.

JL
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
HT,

You are right about Christendom, especially the Catholic Church bearing a heavy burden of guilt for not standing up to save "The Jews," "G-d's Chosen People," "The Apple of His Eye," or anyone put to death in those camps no matter who they were, during the Holocaust.

I completely concur with the Holocaust Museum narrative of the history. It's the truth.

Not to say there weren't individual heroes who risked their lives to save Jews and others. There were those also. But much fewer than the populace that was complicit.


There is a movement right now in Christendom in Germany and in Poland, and even here in the USA, to beg forgiveness for what was done, and for letting it happen, and not standing up to stop it.


Breaking the Veil of Silence Paperback
by Jobst Bittner (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Veil-Silence-Jobst-Bittner/dp/3981244184/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1375447779&sr=8-1




http://tedpearce.com/

AN IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTION TO THE PROCESS OF GERMAN-POLISH RECONCILIATION.

These were the words of Wlodzimiersz Karpinski, state secretary in the Polish Ministry of Administration talking about the March of Life in Poland.

With the reconciliation march from August 19 to 24, descendants of German Wehrmacht soldiers and members of the police force and SS set a mark against anti-Semitism and for Israel together with Polish descendants of the victims of the German war of annihilation. 270 guests from Germany, the United States and Israel walked the distance of 1400 miles through Poland together with numerous Polish participants. In Auschwitz, Kielce, Treblinka and many other places memorial events took place with a total of over 800 participants, among them the Knesset Deputy Speaker Lia Shemtov, the Israeli ambassador in Poland Zvi Rav-Ner, as well as many other representatives of the political sphere and public life in Poland. The March of Life met with great interest in the international media.


March of Remembrance 2012 - Yaphank, NY
from ted pearce 7 months ago NOT YET RATED

In Yaphank, New York there was a Nazi youth camp during the 1930s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund
The March of Remembrance is a reminder of what happens when good men remain silent in the face of evil, and a prayer movement to seek His help in breaking the silence of indifference.
This is one of approximately 60 cities in America where christians held (and hold annual) public prayer events Yom HaShoah (Day of Holocaust Remembrance).
Next March of Remembrance is April 27, 2014 Get involved!


March of Remembrance:
http://www.marchofremembrance.org/


Whatch the news reel:
http://vimeo.com/56721178#at=0
marchofremembrance.org



From Messianic Gentile believer Ted Pearce ... try to watch without crying. Very hard to do.

The Forgotten People - Ted Pearce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWtDGoV6UgM

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Ted Pearce - Zealous Over Zion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpBd3cQvrg

[Click to View YouTube Video]


05-25-2013: Ted Pearce Full Concert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ7N9gHNemc

[Click to View YouTube Video]


I love this album. I spin it often ...

For Zion's Sake, I Will Not Be Silent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGMgfmYRlr0

[Click to View YouTube Video]
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
Dave,
you're twisting my words (if not someone else's)
See Klimmer's excellent post below mine.

PS: What would you have done if you were an unemployed factory worker in Germany, in 1938, with a wife and children but without the means to leave the country.
'38 was demonstrably too late as I pointed out.
I wouldn't have voted NDAP in 1932, that's for sure.
Can't be sure what I'd have done between '33 and '38.
But of course I'm a godless atheist with no moral imperatives in my life. So I would not have had a moral obligation to oppose when the Nazis started systematically excluding the Jews from normal human rights in 1933. Unlike the Pope.
The holocaust was not a precipitous event on a particular date. It was a slow, deliberate destruction of the Jewish people.
Throughout the 1930s, the legal, economic, and social rights of Jews were steadily restricted. ….
On 1 April 1933, there occurred a boycott of Jewish businesses, which was the first national antisemitic campaign, initially planned for a week, but called off after one day owing to lack of popular support. In 1933, a series of laws were passed which contained Aryan paragraphs to exclude Jews from key areas: the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service, the first antisemitic law passed in the Third Reich; the Physicians' Law; and the Farm Law, forbidding Jews from owning farms or taking part in agriculture.
Jewish lawyers were disbarred, and in Dresden, Jewish lawyers and judges were dragged out of their offices and courtrooms and beaten.
Jews were sent to concentration camps starting in Nov 1938.
The Nazis were happy enough to deport Jews to Palestine. About 60,000 between 1933 and 1939.
After all they still had 5 million more they could slaughter.

Of course the "christian" countries of England, the US and many others only made a token effort to accept Jewish refugees.
Approximately 40,000 Jews from Austria and Germany were eventually allowed to settle in Britain before the War, in addition to 50,000 Jews from Italy, Poland, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe
plus about 10,000 more children on the eve of WWII.
About 100,000 came to America before WWII (including Einstein)
Also including my first girlfriend's father, from Austria through Switzerland just before Aunschloss. I'm sure it helped that he was from a wealthy Austrian industrialist's family although he came here with very little money. All he could carry on his person I suppose. Or all the Swiss would let him bring into their country.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
bit tounge-in-cheek anyway.
fair enough ;-)
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Jesus lived, no question. He was an Essene.
http://www.centuryone.org/essene.html
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:02am PT
For you intellectual elites, here's your man... Steven Pinker on The Colbert Report...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mcZOvNGddc

.....

Cintune, way to keep the charge!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:11am PT
and for dessert...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://youtu.be/yRxr9jxF6mg?t=3m3s
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 15, 2013 - 04:33am PT
I'm sure at least one reader was offended. Jennie, I offer my apologies.



Earnest apologies for the condescension and irritation in my language, High Traverse. Any resentment taken was not personal...

Having read many of your posts in recent years, I have to regard you as a sincere and well intentioned individual.

I have difficulty sustaining equitable language in discussions thick with insult and contention. Appreciating your courteous discourse, I need to work on mine...but I certainly want our disagreement to stand without any personal animosity...

Thanks, High Traverse
WBraun

climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 11:50am PT
We have absolutely zero proof that God exists.

No, .... that's only YOU and a bunch of other fools .......

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
^^^^^ well said Jennie

^^^^^ aww c'mon Werner. you can do better than that.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Show me a real, non-imaginary god, and I'll believe in it.

EDIT: this is my answer, what's your problem?
-----


I'm not trying to change your perspective, a worthless task indeed, rather to understand it. So tossing out some unqualified quip and backing it up with "that's my answer" won't do. It tells us nothing about your thinking or reasoning because we have no idea what you mean by "real" and "non-imaginary." And that is not a difficult question.

My sense of it is that for you and all physicalists, "real" and "physical" are the same things. Meaning you want "God" to show up at dinner with a suit and tie and then, once we tape "him," shake his hand and break bread, then you will "believe."

Is that correct?

JL
jstan

climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
This whole exchange is so muddled.


Seems there is some nuance, and that even many who call themselves atheists don't agree on the definition of the word.

Words and the meaning given them is very context dependent and is even fluid. Saying people don't agree on a meaning is almost a tautology.

So how about a straight answer from members of the atheist camp: Do you assert that there is no god or supernatural influences of any sort?

This is a very old gambit. The burden of proof as regards existence of a god rests with those who assert there is a god. There is no evidence to support this claim. Anyone who falls for this and accepts the task of proving a negative, needs to think more deeply. And realize they are doing no one any good by falling for this.

Anyone advancing this gambit is just looking for a pointless victory. The move has no integrity.

Here is a straight answer: Atheists are 100% united in our beliefs, and only one religious belief system can say that, Atheism.

Words words words. At least in the present discussion what is meant by belief?

One believes if they accept something as being true based on bad or no data.
Everyone claiming to be an atheist I have heard say their main point is

they have no beliefs

That being the case atheism is not a religious belief system. I might add anyone claiming any group of people is in 100.00000000...% agreement indicates they fail to understand the human condition.

1) We believe that there is (are) No God(s), spirits, or any supernatural influences that were caused by God(s) or spirits
.

Give me your data showing no god exists. If you cannot do this your statement is a "belief". You take as being true something for which you have no good data. Your beliefs are no different from what is in the bible.

We have had this discussion before. Craig you need to sit down and think hard. I remember you once describing your experience as a youngster. People were twisting your mind for their own selfish purposes at a time when your brain was developing millions of new connections each day. That damage persists unto this very day and it is subliminal. You don't even sense it. Your presentation could be as easily used to advance the idea of a talking snake. Your fascination with certainty and the absolutes you advance keep popping up. Think about this. Please.

2) There is no higher intelligence (than humans) of any sort (not including the possibility of aliens), nor universal spiritual connection.

What can I say. More "beliefs". When I had a wall of my house opened up a garter snake kept trying to gain access. At first I was gentle with it and it seemed to find me unthreatening. But when I got tougher it clearly decided I was to be avoided. A garter snake has the ability to look at data and make decisions.

We humans might learn from this. This revolutionary concept appeared in 400BC or earlier and was later very importantly advocated by Galileo.

This bloody thread is setting us back a good 2500 years.

Some may bicker on the details of my second sentence.

Your use of the word "bicker" is judgmental. It is a word used to marginalize.

Edit:
overzealousness on the subject matter?

This coming from Dr. F.

You could have responded to Dave very effectively simply by saying you were unwilling to have him push the burden of proof onto you. Since he is not stupid that means he is surrendering his integrity when he advances the gambit.

But for some reason you are unwilling to directly challenge an interlocutor. Think about it. Has this always been true?

Oh. Marginalizing others is not a direct challenge.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
The Miracle Whip proof! I like it.

How to prove the non-existence of an imaginary being?
Now that's a conundrum.
Please prove to me there is no Tooth Fairy. Yes, I found a buck under my pillow every time I lost a tooth. Even when I couldn't find it to put under my pillow. You can't ask my Mom or Dad. They're both gone (to wherever). Never had a Bro or Sis. My Mom was equivocal when I asked her. My Dad wasn't home for that conversation. So I'm gonna believe in the Tooth Fairy until you can prove absolutely she doesn't exist.

I was SO relieved when I finally figured out there was no Santa Claus. No, I didn't get up at 2 AM and peek, or have to ask my Mom or Dad to confirm my marvelous discovery. Real world events around Christmas time finally made sense.
I still believe in the Tooth Fairy. And it's a He.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
^^^^^oh Fred, you're just being a Word Twister....shame on you....
😉😉😉😉😉😉😉

;)

Susan
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
yes, a god would have to show and prove themselves as being...godlike..like whip up some extraordinary miracles, drain the oceans in one second, stuff like that ect

this god would have to prove itself beyond question, and also be nothing but pure "good",
and be able to stand up to intense questioning like why it chose to allow massive misery, etc

extraordinary claims (about god) damn straight yes require extraordinary proofs
-


This is pay dirt here because it makes perfectly clear what many if not all physicalists believe is the crux of the matter:

"God" needs to take the form of the old Christian, omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful Dude, but also be incarnate, a kind of Oz that can zap planets and flatten mountains with his breath.

What this shows is that the physicalist camp is operating solely from the discursive, or evelauting part of the brain, since physicality and brute power (draining oceans et al) are tangible things we can graple with our sense organs.

What I have learned from this and other threads is how mistaken I was in believing that science types would be the first to look into how the discursive actually works, by way of empirical exploration of perception itself. In fact they only want to continue to operate out of the same mode. The idea that there are other modes gets no traction here. We are, in fact, one-trick ponies on this count.

JL
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
Jesus lived, no question. He was an Essene.
http://www.centuryone.org/essene.html


Studly,

Very interesting article thanks for posting that. That's a keeper.

I agree that there was indeed a very close relationship between The Essenes and The Nazarenes. And the evidence all points to the Essenes as the keeper and the ones who hid the Dead Sea Scrolls. By the way, The Essenes also accepted The Book of Enoch as divinely inspired scripture. The Book of Enoch to no surprise was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Why did the Jewish Canon reject The Book of Enoch? Sounded too Messianic Judaic, too Christian, since it claims G-d has a Son. Can't have that now can we?

Why did the Christian Canon reject The Book of Enoch? Can't have believers knowing that Fallen Angels had sex with beautiful Earthly women and then had wicked off-spring called Nephilim, now can we? Too much inside info on the enemy Lucifer and his minions. Can't have that.

Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.


Two very important books to read that cover this very well and prove that indeed Yeshua HaMashiac, The Son of The Living G-d and G-d himself (yes the Triune nature of G-d is a deep mystery but real) is very real, his Messianic Judaic community of believers were and still are very real, and they changed and continue to change the World. The Messianic Millennium is coming!:


The Messianic Seal of the Jerusalem Church Paperback – July 1, 1999
by Raymond Robert Fischer (Author) , Reuven Efraim Schmalz (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Messianic-Seal-Jerusalem-Church/dp/9652229628/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376583613&sr=8-1&keywords=the+messianic+seal+of+the+jerusalem+church


* Incredibly interesting story regarding the re-discovery of The Messianic Seal of the Messianic Judaic movement, from the first Messianic Judaic Synagogue in Jerusalem. This symbol goes straight back to "James the Just" the brother of Yeshua. Archaeology proves the Bible to be true, over and over, and over again.

The Antiquities Department of Israel has confiscated much of these historical artifacts and discoveries and has gated a large mitzvah grotto where a large seal was carved into the grotto wall near "the Upper Room" in Jerusalem. By the way, the Antiquities Department has admitted that the Seal has been found elsewhere in Israel. But they won't do a showing of these artifacts. Does suppression happen? Yes it does sadly. This book thoroughly reveals the whole story. Great read.

What does it mean? The menorah means Judaism, Torah, the Tenakh, the OT. The fish, Icthus, means the Messiah, Yeshua, and all his teachings on Torah, the Tenakh, his oral commentaries, that were eventually written down giving us the NT. He is the word of G-d, he should know what it all means, OT and his NT teachings. Bring the two symbols together and they form the Star of David. The Jew, (and the Gentile) is now complete. Voila! Simply beautiful. WOW. Very deep stuff :-))
















The Ways Of The Way: Restoring the Jewish Roots of the Modern Church Hardcover
by Raymond Robert Fischer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Ways-Of-Way-Restoring/dp/1599797631/ref=pd_sim_b_1


*Great read. Goes into detail on the Messianic Judaic Synagogue of Jerusalem, the first Church, and their ways. Goes into detail on the close relationship between the Nazarenes and the Essenes. Also talks about the importance of the Dead Sea Scrolls and how the movement also took the Book of Enoch as inspired scripture along with the Torah, and the Tenakh. Yeshua didn't come to start a new religion, he came to bring the Messiah to Judaism, the Jews, Israel, and then to the rest of the World, and he did!







Edit:


Not "Fairy Tales" but real life physical evidence. Yeshua HaMashiach is real. Many historical proofs exist to prove he was indeed here, and did what he did, and said what he said, and eye-witnesses wrote his testimony down. His community of Messianic Judaic believers were and still are very real and World-wide.

What do Atheists have? Nothing. No evidence.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
Between Largo and Klimmer we have here a perpetual motion machine.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Dave
My definition of atheism is quite simple, if hard for many to accept.
I know there ain't no supernatural beings, either god or god-like. Never were.
I deny the belief. I dis-believe.

You (collectively) don't have to like my conclusion.
Give me some solid scientific (factual and rational) evidence, I'll look at it and adjust my knowledge to fit.

Otherwise we're just quibbling.

Agnosticism is different, it is questioning the existence of god without being certain. So it's neither belief nor denial of belief. A common half way house on the journey to rationalism.

Awww Susan, you're so sweet! What's a nice girl like you doing in a 2 bit gin-joint like this?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
I know there ain't no supernatural beings, either god or god-like. Never were.

I'll go one step further...
I believe there ain't no supernatural beings, either god or god-like. Never were.


Just because some (like jstan) accept a queer definition of "belief" or "believe" doesn't mean I have to. In my world, one can have baseless beliefs and evidence-based beliefs and everything in between.

I refuse to surrender this word (along with "faith") to religions. Granted, the religions have made a mess of them. But when you understand the underlying principles you can see through it.

Atheists who refuse to use the words "belief" and "faith" look "anal", "one-dimensional" to say the least to the rest of the world. Also, atheists who refer to themselves as "nonbelievers" or "nones" are seeing themselves through the religious lens or religious framework - the very thing they (supposedly) don't believe in. It's a losing strategy. Like Sam Harris says, they should think about changing the conversation. "Flip the script." But alas, too many atheists, even agnostics and humanitarians, it seems, are too mono-dimensional to get it.

I've got many scientific beliefs. Founded on evidence. Founded on schooling. I believe in science. I'm a believer. I believe in science. I believe in the revelations of physics and chemistry. I believe in biology. I believe the role of mitochondria is to create ATP. I believe the role of the heart is to circulate blood through the body. Eat your heart out, jstan.
WBraun

climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
I know there ain't no supernatural beings, either god or god-like. Never were.

Nope, you don't know sh!t and is easily revealed as such.

You're just guessing based on the limited knowledge you have.

Then you apply mental speculation and mental gymnastics to it to convince yourself that you know.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
One believes if they accept something as being true based on bad or no data.
Everyone claiming to be an atheist I have heard say their main point is

they have no beliefs

That being the case atheism is not a religious belief system.

werd
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
What's more, I believe wbraun is a dipstik when it comes to the intersection where science, religion and belief intersect. (Not when it comes to computers and rescue though.)
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
One thing I know is that people who say what other people think don't know squat.
TwistedCrank

climber
Bungwater Hollow, Ida-ho
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
People don't hate Christianity. They hate Christians.

Just like they hate Commies.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
If I continue "down the road to rationalism," and conclude that there is no God, no supernatural influences, no higher law, then what do I use for my basis for ethical behavior?

Your humanity.

Your human sense. Your human sensibilities. That evolution instilled in you.

And then hope it prevails. Your good humanity, that is. You hope it guides you on paths more of heroes than villains.

Your acculturation. Over 20-plus years.

Follow your heart. It's all really anyone can do. Knowing along the way that the villain's path, esp in this day and age, is an unkind one.

Try to show the world - and yourself - assuming this is what you value - you're more a loveable mountain gorilla type than a snake or rat. :)

All we can do is what we can do - till our destiny is revealed to us.

.....

the behavior of lions -- killing cubs for the purpose of maximizing resources. It is very rational behavior

I'd say it was evolutionary, genetically-induced behavior. Understandable in evolutionary terms, in game theory terms, ala genes and genomes.

.....

my brain is wired for logic.

Only insofar as it's useful to survival and the bearing of offspring.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Aug 15, 2013 - 10:31am PT
One believes if they accept something as being true based on bad or no data.
Everyone claiming to be an atheist I have heard say their main point is

they have no beliefs

That being the case atheism is not a religious belief system.

werd


Dr. Christ,

Then you would be an agnostic, if you don't have any beliefs, you don’t really know one way or the other. That is agnosticism, not Atheism.

Atheism states there is No G-d. That is a belief sytem, based on no evidence to verify that belief. It can’t be proved that there is No G-d. You can’t prove a negative. Therefore, the belief of Atheism, there is No G-d, based on no evidence, takes faith to accept. So you are exercising a belief system based on no evidence, and utilizing faith to do so.

Welcome to the First Church of Atheism.



Your articles of faith are:


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

athe•ism noun \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\

Definition of ATHEISM

1
archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist



"[5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist." That's like someone saying I don't think therefore I'm not. That's laughable.

Just admit that you believe there is No G-d. Heck, even Fructose can admit that.

Once again, welcome to "The First Church of Atheism." A belief system, a world view, a paradigm, based on no verifiable evidence that utilizes faith to believe it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
If God is not like the Christian Concept of God, then Every Christian is Wrong, right?


This assumes that all Christian's have the same concept of "God," and that you know exactly what that is. In fact you are judging what you believe God is or is not based on old metaphors and myths speaking about the effects, real or imagined, that God has on mankind. But God as a noun has always been held to be ungraspable, "wholly other," and you'll turn to stone or ash or coton candy if you ever see "his" face.

This all sounds like blarny to me when approached on the purely discursive level, but attempts to change the conversation to the hyper-rational go nowhere so we just keep circling, "like two bald men arguing over a comb."

If you want to investigate extrodinary thinigs, you must adopt extrornidary means. You all want to get hold of the extrordinary by way of the same means (discursive rasoning), and what has it wrought so far in terms of duckets? Nothing. What you don't get is that this is no fault of the extrordinary. Atoms are extrordinary. No body complained that making an atom smasher was going to far. But in this case, moving past the discursive apparently is. Go figure for a bunch of adventurers . . .

JL

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
the alternative is overwhelmingly depressing

It's true: there is a briar's patch to work through and growing pains along the way... esp insofar as you're coming off a any serious Abrahamic acculturation, otherwise addiction, in any of its forms. But the rest of the truth: On the other side you'll find, once there, empowerment through understanding, joy, a lot more maturity, exhilaration, release, freedom, maybe above all appreciation for the preciousness and finiteness of our own existence...

In the words of Steven Pinker...
"Yes, mortality sucks, but given that it exists, I'd rather know that than be kept in a childlike state of delusion."

And in regards to our "flying solo" - your take on it is really up to you. So what's it going to be? Is it going to be "Oh no, we're flying solo, we're going to crash!" or "Yeah, baby, we're flying solo, right on, give me the stick!" Attitude is everything.

Being rational is useful. But of course there is a great deal more to life, the good life, than just rationalism.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:22pm PT

This is a very old gambit. The burden of proof as regards existence of a god rests with those who assert there is a god. There is no evidence to support this claim.

DENIALIST! You all !

Your gonna stand there looking around the world and all the life in it. And all the universe.

And ur gonna say there was no help. No idea. No thought on it becoming. It all just appeared

What I know of the universe and the world nothing appears out of thin air. Anything we've created takes a lot of thought and hard work.

Ur gonna stand there pointing at the Sun and push the burden onto me to prove that it was intelligently plotted?? LOL! This is the biggest joke of all time.

We have a whole universe of material evidence pointing at a structured plan. And all that the scientist can say is it was all an act of random happenstance. The universe occurred out of thin air. No idea. No plan. No direction.

HYPOCRITES!!

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
Then you would be an agnostic, if you don't have any beliefs, you don’t really know one way or the other. That is agnosticism, not Atheism.

Climber, you are wrong... and an idiot to boot.

Agnosticism is the view that certain things are unknown and/or unknowable. One can be agnostic and still have BELIEF in something for one reason or another (agnostic theist) or be agnostic and not have BELIEF in something (agnostic atheist).

Atheism is the ABSENCE of BELIEF, no matter how many times you people try to twist it to fit into your belief-dependent world view.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
What's perfectly clear (has been for a long time now) is that blu is the poster child for the fella of supertopo, of the world, who has no interest, zero interest, in taking on the "briar patch" as an adventure of growth, or as a gateway to growth.

To each their own. Eh?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Not fairy tales, not Santa Clause, not the Easter Bunny, but real physical evidence that G-d's word is true and verifiable (once again!). Here is great evidence going back to The Book of Genesis that G-d's word is true ...



Sodom and Gomorrah did indeed happen as the Good Book says it happened. This book is an incredible read. "The cities of the plain" were destroyed from heat and forces that only a asteroid ----> meteoroid ----> meteorite rain of debri from space could accomplish.

Ceramics, pottery of the city have a glaz of "Trinitite" like destruction on one side that can only happen due to extreme impact shock metamorphism pressures and heat from a massive, very quick, sudden rain of space material from above. This can't be faked or replicated unless you drop a nuclear bomb there, and then no remains would occur more than likely if that were the case. And no Israel or Jordan haven't tested nuclear bombs near the Dead Sea. So that didn't happen. There are remains. Lots. It was destruction from above just as the Good Book says it happened.


HaShem is true to his word.


http://pages.simonandschuster.com/discovering-the-city-of-sodom

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Here's another good reason why everyone hate christianity so much...

[Click to View YouTube Video]


New buss word... Hypochristian
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Atheism is the ABSENCE of BELIEF, no matter how many times you people try to twist it to fit into your belief-dependent world view.


Dr. Christ,


Man that is laughable. You don't even understand your own faith.


Is it possible to not think, and therefore you are not? Can you not ever believe in something and not exercise belief, faith, and trust? No you can't. So that can't be the definition of Atheism.


Atheism is the ABSENCE of BELIEF

You believe many things you don't have a clue about or have no physical evidence to prove otherwise. We all believe everyday of our lives in something.

You exercise belief, faith, trust when you climb with your partner, or perhaps when you step out the door of a perfectly good airplane and you weren't the one to pack your chute. Man, that's belief, faith, and trust on a very real personal level.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
There was a program on the History channel, a few years ago, about the archeological sites some claim are those nasty cities, Klimmer.


Do you happen to know if any lovable mountain gorillas arrived in that Ark on the Moon? They would surely seem preferable to those other apes with the swagger and braggadocio?

:-)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
I realize arguing over definitions on ST is Sysyphisian, at best, but Webster's New World Dictionary of American English contains the following definitions [Emphasis is added]:

atheism 1. The belief that there is no God, or denial that God or gods exist 2. Godlessness.

atheist a person who believes there is no God

syn: . . . an agnostic questions the existence of God, heaven, etc., in the absence of material proof and in unwillingness to accept supernatural revelation. . .

Of course, how could one argue with Wikipedia?

John
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 15, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Atheism is the ABSENCE of BELIEF


Update: Atheism is the ABSENCE of BELIEF... in a god.

End of discussion fruitcake


Bwahahahaha
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Jennie,


As far as I know those other sites on History Channel are not this site from the above stated book. This discovery is to the NE region of the Dead Sea, and he goes into great detail why this region was the region of "the Cites of the Plain" from the historical record as well as archaeological record.

Many have been looking on the South end of the Dead Sea. That isn't where they made this discovery. This book came out in April 2013, but they have been at it for over 10 years in the archaeological study.


Don't make me post NASA images of the Mothership on the Moon. I will if I must!!!! Lol.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 15, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
Thanks, Klimmer.

You're right, we don't want more mothership cussing!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 15, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Whatever humans believe or don't believe about God has no bearing on whether such a being exists or not, anymore than human ignorance or partial awareness of Dark Energy and Matter depends on what humans have known or not known about it, just like 3 year old kids know nothing about adult sexuality.

Christians often rub people the wrong way by making them feel judged. That's mostly it. I feel if Christians followed Christ's teachings of non-judgment and unconditional love, they'd probably be valued, even by folks who didn't share their beliefs.

Of course, we tend to cling to our own belief systems which are insecure enough that different belief systems make us uncomfortable. It's hardly different that the conflicts climbers have about style and ethics

peace

Karl
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Aware of events underway in Egypt right now, it occurs to me once again how fortunate we are that we get to "contend" (mostly re new vs old ideologies, modern vs traditional, not unlike Egypt) across the safe expanse of the internet and not out on the streets. It's a glimpse of the future, I think, of what's to come. The internet is going to have deep and lasting impacts, it's going to make a difference, really how could it not, on how future generations contest (ideas, ideologies, etc.), fight. It's too bad Egypt didn't have a bit more time.

.....

Whatever humans believe or don't believe about God has no bearing on whether such a being exists or not

Well, this in itself was never an issue.

But what humans (eg militant Muslims) think and feel about "God" (god concepts) has bearings on the states of humanity and world cultures and their performance. That is the NUMBER ONE issue for those interested in progress and problem solving in the 21st century.

Christians often rub people the wrong way by making them feel judged. That's mostly it.

You mean apart from (a) their superstitions (which they advance as truth-claims) and (b) their interference with science. To science junkies, and science education junkies, nothing's more annoying.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 15, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
then what do I use for my basis for ethical behavior?
I've got no problem with you shopping around. As I said, Judeo-Christian (and Islamic - taken from Judeo-Christian ethics, but that hornet's nest belongs in a different thread) (see HFC above) ethics offer an excellent, time-tested framework. They work for me at least to the best of my fallible ability.
Simply put they have arisen out of biological evolution. Those who violated them in the ancient world were cast out or killed and produced fewer offspring.

For a similar perspective about universal ethics or Natural Law, you can refer to the Christian philosopher and novelist C.S. Lewis. In Mere Christianity he wrote:
Lewis discusses the idea that people have a standard of behaviour to which they expect people to adhere. This standard has been called Universal Morality or Natural Law. Lewis claims that people all over the earth know what this law is and when they break it. He goes on to claim that there must be someone or something behind such a universal set of principles.[70]
These then are the two points that I wanted to make. First, that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it. These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in.[71]
Lewis also portrays Universal Morality in his works of fiction. In The Chronicles of Narnia he describes Universal Morality as the "deep magic" which everyone knew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis

whole lot of quibbling around here about "faith" vs "reason", or in this context "disbelief". The difference is plain to me.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Aug 15, 2013 - 10:25am PT
"I know there ain't no supernatural beings, either god or god-like. Never were."

I'll go one step further...
I believe there ain't no supernatural beings, either god or god-like. Never were.


Just because some (like jstan) accept a queer definition of "belief" or "believe" doesn't mean I have to. In my world, one can have baseless beliefs and evidence-based beliefs and everything in between.

I refuse to surrender this word (along with "faith") to religions. Granted, the religions have made a mess of them. But when you understand the underlying principles you can see through it.

Atheists who refuse to use the words "belief" and "faith" look "anal", "one-dimensional" to say the least to the rest of the world. Also, atheists who refer to themselves as "nonbelievers" or "nones" are seeing themselves through the religious lens or religious framework - the very thing they (supposedly) don't believe in. It's a losing strategy. Like Sam Harris says, they should think about changing the conversation. "Flip the script." But alas, too many atheists, even agnostics and humanitarians, it seems, are too mono-dimensional to get it.

I've got many scientific beliefs. Founded on evidence. Founded on schooling. I believe in science. I'm a believer. I believe in science. I believe in the revelations of physics and chemistry. I believe in biology. I believe the role of mitochondria is to create ATP. I believe the role of the heart is to circulate blood through the body. Eat your heart out, jstan.



I think Fructose is the only one here being intellectually honest regarding the Faith of Atheism.

I think he should be the PR guy for The First Church of Atheism.

You know when Atheists can't even agree on what they believe, then you know that division is right around the corner. Uh oh, that might start another denomination, such as The Second Church of Atheism. Lol.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
See here, Klimmer trying to draw me in to the crazy stupid Klimmer Universe, ain't going to work. ;)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 15, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Music for the First Church of Atheism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFWA1A9XFi8

John
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
See here, Klimmer trying to draw me in to the crazy stupid Klimmer Universe, ain't going to work. ;)


Dude,


It just worked. ;-)


Lol.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 15, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
You know when Atheists can't even agree on what they believe, then you know that division is right around the corner.
Now there's the history of Christianity, Judaism and Islam in a nutshell.
And you have every right to whatever definition of atheism you like.

Here it is from Oxford English Dictionary, the acknowledged keeper of the history of the English language. 1971 Edition
atheism…
"Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of God."

Greek atheos," atheal: without God, denying God."

So what is it to disbelieve?
"not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to: a) a statement or alleged fact; to reject the truth or reality of,"
Pretty straightforward.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 15, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
I'm just wondering why, in a world without a higher law, there would be a reason to follow any rulebook?
Dave, I don't know how to explain it any better than I have.

Dr F's comment might be helpful
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
We want to be Good Humans, just like ants want to be good ants and work for the colony... It's innate in all of us.

Well, unless you're a sociopath. ;)

There but for the grace of Fate go I.

.....

If you're soul searching in this modern age, perhaps disillusioned with the traditional forms of belief, and you don't know who he is, you might check out Sam Harris.

Youtube:

Sam Harris - free will
Sam Harris - Death and the Present Moment

....

If a human is just a bag of chemicals...

That's right, I am a bag of chemicals. But not "just" a bag of chemicals.

The use of "just" betrays an underlying attitude. One that's pretty common. One that one would expect, tho, moving beyond supernaturalism and into a post-religious era. My bag of chemicals is pretty impressive - it can do amazing things. :)
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 15, 2013 - 05:11pm PT

The Spirit of the High Fruit is posting aboveboard substance today rather than playing commentator = keeping track of "batting averages"...alternately cheerleading amigos and backbiting and carping at unfriendlies.

The No Interference With Science Muse must have stricken the gentleman in his sleep.

:-)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
Jennie, love you!
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Aug 15, 2013 - 06:39pm PT

It is what it is. Wow, profound. I love life and will one day die. The rest is conjecture.




This.


Why does everyone need to be categorized?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 15, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
I'm just wondering why, in a world without a higher law, there would be a reason to follow any rulebook?... why would we have an obligation to treat a human differently than any other animal, or even an inanimate physical object?

There are many reasons to live via certain "rules" that may or may not apply to different people:

Most people have an inherent knowledge of right and wrong and a desire to be good.

Humans evolved with cooperation being advantageous to survival. By working together and sharing our resources we often do better than just competing.

We have learned the golden rule.

We can think what the world would be like if everyone only acted in their own self interest and do our part to make the world a good place.

Many people want to protect and maintain their honor.

Guilt.

I put humans far above any other animal because they are far more advanced in terms of thought, relationships, capabilities, etc. however I still believe in treating animals ethically (e.g. humane slaughtering methods) because to me being "good" also applies to how you treat other animals that can also feel and think (just not anywhere near the level humans can). I also think about how I treat inanimate objects or plants mostly in regards to how it effects humans and animals (e.g. placing a bolt on a climb).
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 15, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
They hate Christians.
Not so much.
The only ones I even severely dislike are the loonies who disrupt Veteran's memorial services, call homosexuals perverts, agents of Satan and such.
When they go out of their way to condemn and harass others on the basis of their beliefs and natures.

I try to judge people based on how their behavior affects others.
Those who abuse or enslave women because "god gave them the call" (many polygamists among others).
Burn wooden crosses (not so many these days) and do much worse.
Fortunately for all of us, there aren't many of them around.

Those who would deny women reproductive choice, have organized to insert creationism in our public schools or use "religion" to deny global warming…..I consider a Public Nuisance but hey, they have the same right to Free Speech as I do. I do my best to find them grostequely entertaining.

I sure don't hate anyone on this thread. I certainly am not trying to "convert" any Christians to my way of thinking (as if).
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
Breaking tweet, by Lawrence Krauss...
"Is it reasonable to believe there is a God?" Short answer: no."
(We should probably assume here he's referencing God Jehovah of the Jews, Christians and Muslims and not God Zeus or God Amon-Re or God Quetzalcoatl.)

Compare...
Is it reasonable to place bolts next to a crack? Short answer: no.


Haven't you noticed: When it's not about facts, then it's often about reasonableness. Or else... attitude or style.

The Abrahamic "style" - in this day and age most strongly evinced by Christianity and Islam - leaves much to be desired. Imo.

For starters, it's too stiff. ;)

.....

I live in a liberal arts wasteland where unfortunately my three strikes for dating (the math guy, the science guy, and the paunch guy) are all too numerous.

Bummer.




What's your sign?
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 15, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
Ya know, Jesus was supposed to return at the millenium. Perhaps he did.

Or maybe earlier.




Maybe, it was Werner?




It's probably been said here before, if he did come back he'd be branded a socialist and you see a river of negative PR trying to shut him down. Crucified in the media.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 15, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Those doubting the validity of the question Dave Kos raises need look no farther than the thread on the NPS permanent anchor policy, which produced the following exchange about the relevance of any such rules:



Eddie Joe: If the Feds don't know what you're doing out in the wilderness; who is harmed? No spray...

ec


Guyman:

EC +1111


"If that is failing to impress you, well, it says something about you"

[Quoting a previous post about relevance of wilderness rules)

Not so fast dude.... I am not impressed.

You ever brake [sic] any laws? Go 80mph, make noise after 10pm????? Smoke something????

Lots of Idiot laws getting made these days, by Idiots in government.

If you walk lock step with these fellows, well it shows a ton about YOU.

Sheep follow.

Men lead.


Why isn't the default position of humanity that everyone does what is right in their own eyes? [aside: I'm, sure it's a mere coincidence that the radio is playing the Animals' "It's My Life And I'll Do What I Want" as I write this.

John
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 15, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
WOW!!

Karl Baba…

Long time no hear…

Refreshing

Cheers
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
why does everyone hate christianity so much?


John.15:1-27 (KJV)
[1] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
[14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
[15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
[16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
[17] These things I command you, that ye love one another.
[18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
[19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
[20] Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
[21] But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
[22] If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
[23] He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
[24] If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
[25] But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
[26] But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
[27] And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.





Let's be honest and stop hemming around the burning bush ...


People who hate true Christianity, also hate Yeshua HaMashiach, and also hate G-d. Yeshua says it plainly above. Because the truth is not in them.

You hate true Christians (or Messianic Judaic believers -- Jew or Gentile), so therefore you hate Yeshua HaMashiach the one who sent them, so therefore you hate G-d because he sent Yeshua to Earth to bear witness to the truth.

You hate G-d because you can't stand the thought that you will one day be held accountable to him for your sin. The wages of sin is death, physical and spiritual death, which is eternal separation from G-d and his love. You would rather ignore him and pretend he isn't there, then to face this accountability. And you hate being reminded of this, time and time again.

He made you, gave you life, gave you a soul, and he provides for you everyday. Yet you hate him and spit in his face. Not good. But he is ever forgiving and merciful all the way to the bitter end.

But the Good News is G-d provided a way out of this judgement and he provided for you the gift of forgiveness and eternal life. Take it while you still can ... We are not promised tomorrow.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 15, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
A physicist would assert that physical phenomena have physical causes ONLY

Largo and others have raised the possibility that phenomenon like consciousness are not physical. There is no empirical result that supports that assertion (though rudimentary experience points to a physical origin)

Though I am often confused by Largo's assertions on this topic, he may also assert that "conciousness" is an intrinsic property of the "universe" and that the "universe" is beyond description.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 15, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
Heard this the other night… Gave it some thought and found it to make perfect sense to me.



On the actions you claim to be so moral…

Are they moral just because the gods say so?
Or are they inherently moral and the gods are just instructing you that they are moral?

If it is that your morals are just made up pronouncements then that's not really morality. Just because a big powerful guy says so doesn't make it right.
If it is that your morals are inherently moral, and the god is merely instructing us, then morality is something that is outside the gods and dethrones them entirely. Humans already know what this thing that they have made up and labeled morality.
Jeff Dee
The Atheist Experience
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 15, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
Ed's ^^^ I guess that's why when I talk there's actually some "thing" strumming ur inner ear canal?

Explaining why you don't hear me when I type.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 15, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
^^^ thanks for the edit…
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 15, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Language is not physical?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 15, 2013 - 10:44pm PT

Are they moral just because the gods say so?

When God first directed man with morals, He started out with 10. The 10 commandments.
Jus like He inscribed them on a rock. He also told us that He inscribed them into EVERY mans heart. Today, every single one of the 7 billion on this planet rocks back and forth over these same 10 morals. Or otherwise known as "The Law". From The Old Testament.

Besides, what is a moral but a law!

Later, He narrowed it down to ONE moral." Love thy Brother as thy self". From The New Testament. Known as "Grace". Where Grace trumps The Law! Praise Jesus!!

INCREDIABLE!! The creator of El Capitan and the rest of this Bitch'in planet. And the device
of our solar system within the entire universe. Has told us that Love and Compassion is what it takes to guarantee an everlasting life. Seems logical that hate would lead to death.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
Sully,

what's your sign?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 15, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Malemute, I think you've become a little more "hardball" in your posting over the last couple years, you've adapted, evolved.

Welcome to the Hardball Club! ;)

.....

That's friggin scary!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 15, 2013 - 11:33pm PT

Look at what the Natural forces of nature and evolution have produced!, it's amazing and beautiful!

We all directly see the beauty of this, but where do you think these "natural forces" arise from?
And for them "to work" they must come into direct contact with matter. At the direct same time!
The "forces" are what create form in matter. And neither works without the other. I figure the
Creator put both dice in His hand then threw them against the wall and yelled "7"!!!

Science and evolution havnt answered all my questions.
So maybe I'm just Ask'in more questions than you????
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 15, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Wow..what a surprise..not really.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/14/religious-people-less-intelligent-atheists_n_3750096.html
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 15, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
...but where do you think these "natural forces" arise from?

is this a trick question? the answer: nature.



simon and garfunkled again!

what the mama saw
it was against the law
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 15, 2013 - 11:49pm PT

Why is God needed for creation, beauty or morals?

I don't know? Look around! What can you see that's different between man and ALLL other things in creation? Maybe Love? Compassion? orthe ability of Forgivness?? Or the complete opposites of these?(God forbid. Lol).
Jus witnessing the preciseness, and discipline, and The LOVE it takes to nurture nature. And the Love and Hate I'm able to create within my Brothers. This mountain summoned my approach. And it's felt like a first accent, but the more I read the bible, the more I know this is a trade route. And there's an excellent topo!!
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:07am PT
Plenty of love, sadness, compassion in the animal world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_in_animals
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:07am PT
is this a trick question? the answer: nature.

Noth'in up my sleeve!! Question!, does the motion of the planets "cause" gravity, and the push-pull? Or does the push-pull gravity cause the PLANETS, period.

So the long of it, does conscioucness create matter. Or does matter create conscioucness?

Alright, I had to make it trick!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:09am PT
don't need cause here...

the motion of two bodies each with a mass is described by a second order differential equation....

no cause required.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:13am PT
Without those two bodies there's no equation though; correct?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:17am PT
the two bodies do their thing without the equation... which describes, quantitatively, what that thing is...

you're point is?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:36am PT

you're point is?

I quess what my point is, could there even be two bodies. What would make(cause) the seperation? A force, of some sort? And what would (cause them) put them in motion?
Looking back to "the big bang" , isn't it a convergence of forces and matter, at the exact precise time that formed forms?

Am I totally off with my scientific lingo?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:50am PT
seeking "a cause" is rather anthropomorphic...
but perhaps you believe the universe emulates what you perceive to be human behavior?

the planets spun in their orbits before there were people around to measure and then describe that motion...

...what equation does the planet Mercury use?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:57am PT

...what equation does the planet Mercury use?

Well, smaller planet, faster spin, longer orbit = shorter lifespan?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:02am PT

but perhaps you believe the universe emulates what you perceive to be human behavior?

Doesn't everybody? Reminds me of that part in Animal House. Where " there could be an entire universe in the tip of my fingernail". Sure seems oblivious to me...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:02am PT
no, but Newton couldn't account for features of the motion...

see perihelion of Mercury which precesses
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:07am PT

RyanD

climber
Squamish
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:26am PT
Malemute, those photos are awesome.

Ed is the man.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:30am PT
^^^^Good one!
I assume He. Helium, is a physical being?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:34am PT
that was provided by an anonymous donor

physical? yes
being? no
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:44am PT
^^^^^ ur language is so good!
I'll refine mine..

Hope U had a good time at climbing!!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:54am PT

no, but Newton couldn't account for features of the motion...

So does this mean he couldnt declare if motion of the planets came from an internal force, or an external one? Or if the mass of the planets provided the force of motion?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:01am PT
"...hypothesis non fingo..."



Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation fails to account for the observed precession of the perihelion of Mercury.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:18am PT
By any scientific standard, the world is not as you see it. You only perceive the limited spectrum of visible Light while a world of other frequencies pass right though you. Your body molecules co-exist in the same space as countless cell-phone conversations, radio and data transmissions. It’s plain that our senses can’t be expected to perceive some divine frequency.

It’s plain that our senses can’t be trusted to give us a clear picture of anything. The information from the retina of our eyes comes to use upside down and backwards after being inverted by the lens of our eye. It is our brain that magically flips our whole visual experience of the world right-side up! There are also sounds we can’t hear, and smells we can’t experience, even if our dog can!

The more science discovers about the world, the more dreamlike it looks. All the mass of this whole planet could be squeezed to the size of a baseball by the intense gravity of a black hole.

I appreciate the scientific method but try to wrap your mind around this indisputable truth. We don’t really have any reliable proof the world exists as a physical reality at all! To be honest about our experience, at the personal level, all we have ever experienced is in consciousness. All proof of the world, all our pains and loves, it has all come through our consciousness alone. The only thing in life that is truly proved is consciousness!

There is no way to even prove that you’re not dreaming your whole existence from a higher level of yourself.

Which is exactly the same reason you can never prove God.

Because God is manifest as the totality itself and not as an object within it. If God appears in creation, it is by extension. We keep trying to prove God is a unit within the universe when God encompasses All!

Even if a divine powerful being were to appear before us all, it would only prove that angelic powerful beings existed.

The Nature of God is another matter.

We wonder why science hasn’t yet discovered proof a supreme being. It’s like asking people in a dream to prove who is dreaming. It’s impossible because a dream-being’s entire world is comprised of the consciousness of the dreamer.

How can you prove “Something” that is “EveryThing?”
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:31am PT
^^^^ Que Largo

That was really quool Karl!!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:50am PT
I live in a liberal arts wasteland where unfortunately my three strikes for dating (the math guy, the science guy, and the paunch guy) are all too numerous. High art is Star Trek and Dune. Another case for pulling up stakes.


Thanks for the kind words, Sullly.

Are you considering leaving the Bay Area? I'd kinda believed San francisco and L.A. were headquarters for "culture"in the western U.S.

Our little towns up here sure aren't...the rural life has its own merits though
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:04am PT
Karl wrote: We wonder why science hasn’t yet discovered proof a supreme being. It’s like asking people in a dream to prove who is dreaming. It’s impossible because a dream-being’s entire world is comprised of the consciousness of the dreamer.


Did you think because there isn't one?

I don't think the burden of proof is on the shoulders of science...It not the one claiming there is a god.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:08am PT
It’s plain that our senses can’t be expected to perceive some divine frequency.

"Divine frequency"? Would that be like "dark matter" or "dark energy"? If it's a hypothesis you should say so. Emanating from what or where? the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Why choose to complicate a model or picture that's clearly already confusing enough?

Much of what you described could be called the science model.

We don’t really have any reliable proof the world exists as a physical reality at all!

Pretty woo-woo. Can't you appreciate otherwise marvel at the science of nature you described above without getting all woo-woo. Not reliable? My goodness, what more do you need? Didn't you almost die on El Cap not long ago from a loose rock of physical reality? You were injured, right? If we're going to get all theoretical, then it's true, you or I may "just" be a brain (if that) in a vat (according to this popular neuro-cognitive science model), a generation of perceptions or consciousness, but even if this were the case you should admit that what's perceived is a pretty damn good representation of a "physical reality."

The only thing in life that is truly proved is consciousness!
Pretty amazing, huh. But I would add the physical reality around us is pretty amazing, too. For starters for its causality (in an engineering sense), for the regularity or consistency in seeming to obey rules (natural laws), for its intelligibility. We can use our consciousness (our sensing thinking part) to figure out how it works. Outstanding!

There is no way to even prove that you’re not dreaming your whole existence from a higher level of yourself... Which is exactly the same reason you can never prove God.


I thought we settled this whole thing - that you like to dangle "God" a few years back - leaving the audience confused. Again, if we're going to be intellectually honest, you should ack your "God" or "Highest Power" is far far afield of the biblical tyrant of the Abrahamic religion. I doubt many atheists or scientists would have a problem with your impersonal god concept at all - vague as She is. The idea of "intellectual honesty" comes up here because you know American culture, far and away, has in mind the personal God of Moses and Abraham when they reference "God" so it seems rather disingenuous to take refuge in the shadows (of language, etc) and not point this out in the interest of clarity.

The Nature of God is another matter.
"God"? Would that be The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Mother Nature herself. Quetzalcoatl? You're not a Christian or Muslim so what exactly is YOUR "god concept"? Conversation gets no where till folks have the balls to define it clearly. And if it's "just" some vague indefinite "Highest Power" or "First Cause" that led to the Big Bang, say, then why not state this, again for clarity sake.

We wonder why science hasn’t yet discovered proof a supreme being.
Red herring, here. I don't think we need science to prove that Zeus didn't actually throw lightning bolts or that Athena (or was it Aphrodite, lol) didn't actually emerge (as history claims) from sea foam off an Aegean island. Instead we only need to look at the human factor - its role - in all of this.

But it looks like you have a fan in Blu. :)

.....

Causality rules.
It's Ovah for Jehovah.
Knowing better is doing better.
Be the change you seek in the world.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:30am PT
How can you prove “Something” that is “EveryThing?”
O my, God Jesus!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:37am PT
Blind faith, no matter how passionately expressed, will not suffice. Science for its part will test relentlessly every assumption about the human condition.
E. O. Wilson
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:58am PT
To Karl:

The human mind evolved to believe in the gods. It did not evolve to believe in biology.

E. O. Wilson
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:07am PT
The human mind evolved to believe in the gods, then it evolved to understand biology.

There, fixed it for ya...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:09am PT
Thanks for the reminder.

E.O Wilson, more fully...
"if history and science have taught us anything, it is that passion and desire are not the same as truth. The human mind evolved to believe in the gods. It did not evolve to believe in biology. Acceptance of the supernatural conveyed a great advantage throughout prehistory, when the brain was evolving. Thus it is in sharp contrast to biology, which was developed as a product of the modern age and is not underwritten by genetic algorithms. The uncomfortable truth is that the two beliefs are not factually compatible."

That's a favorite!

Those propositions in bold are what we could be (should be) discussing. They are packed with ideas and implications. But, alas, the public's just not there.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Karl brings up some very large topics, and I can't comment on the "search for god" or other "dimensions" other than to say that so far the existence is not required to explain the workings of the universe so far as we "know" it...

science has progressed by observation and measurement, an empirical process, since the time of Galileo, having abandoned the what we physicists call, derisively, "Greek Physics," which is the philosophizing absent experience.

What "makes sense" to us, through our thinking isn't what we observe... it makes sense that "gravity" and "levity" are two attributes that are required to obtain a static state, Newton eventually resolves the issue with his 3rd law of motion and dispenses with the need to have some complicated interaction... and later proposes a law for gravity...

So while it might "make sense" that our conscious state is exceptional, our experience of it, our empirical knowledge of it, has it firmly routed in the physical. And not only that, as we study that phenomenon, we get closer and closer to a physical explanation, by empirical methods.

No one can say how this empirical investigation will end up, as we don't know the answer to the question, a priori, "how does consciousness arise from physical processes?" But we cannot rule out the possibility that there is an empirically determinable explanation.

With apologies to sullly from an unrepentant scientist, who believes science expands the wonder.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Note that the faith of Hartouni in science IS justified.

Because it is an evidence-based faith. Not a blind faith.

.....

"Today the greatest divide within humanity is not between races, or religions, or even, as is widely believed, between the literate and illiterate. It is the chasm that separates scientific from prescientific cultures." -Wilson.

re: physical reality and the woo-woo

"Prescientific people... could never guess the nature of physical reality beyond the tiny sphere attainable by unaided common sense. Nothing else ever worked, no exercise from myth, revelation, art, trance, or any other conceivable means; and notwithstanding the emotional satisfaction it gives, mysticism, the strongest prescientific probe in the unknown, has yielded zero." -Wilson

I forgot what a breath of fresh air E.O. Wilson is.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
I haven't thrown this out there much because it would never find traction here but going on what Ed said, consciousness or perception is NOT the end of exploring "mind."

Beginning stages of inquiry are always a matter of trying to disidentify from or get some detachmnt from qualia (or content), involving thoughts, felings, memories, senstations, etc. Eventually, far down the road, consciousness itself is encountered as just another cloud passing through "mind."

Of course this makes no sense to our discursive mind, which evolved to work with discrete bits or pieces of the whole; likeswise it makes no sense even when you encounter this strange process: what happens when I move toward detaching from even being conscious, or being identified with being conscious. This is the heart of what the old Zen folks called no-mind. They speak of it as such:

After reaching the first jhana the ardent meditator can go on to reach the higher jhanas, which is done by eliminating the coarser factors in each jhana. Beyond the four jhanas lies another fourfold set of higher meditative states which deepen still further the element of serenity. These attainments (aruppa), are the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.



Trying to stay with "neither perceiving nor not perceiving" is perhaps the most counterintuitive aspect of the whole game, IME. I should say in my very recent experience - like this last month.

For years I thought that the "work" involved boiling down consciousness to its bare and empty (megamundane) aspects. The notion that mind - in some ineffable way - can go beyond perception/consciousness was something totally lost on me and admitedly, it sounds like jibberish to even write it out.

One of the interesting things about spiritual work is however strange stuff sounds, there is always something like the above passage on the Jhanas that mirrors what one encounters, seeming that people have been working on this stuf for 2,500 years. At this level you are no longer looking at content, or any thing being true or false, but are grappling with the cognitive aperatus prior to things that are true or false, and not at the level of thought, so to speak, but rather the unborn, borderless "field" in which all things arise like skittering clouds, including perception itself.

Mind boggling stuff to encounter, and to see, through readings, that others encountered the self same hurtles along the path. This is where the discursive is especially helpful - in trying to frame what the hell is happening when you venture beyond where evolution has mechanically led us.

JL
shit tooth

Trad climber
Oklahoma City, OK
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
evidence and faith? pick one. You can't have both
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
shittooth you got post 666 in the hate christianity thread.
rad.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
Let's revisit this one...

"Today the greatest divide within humanity is not between races, or religions, or even, as is widely believed, between the literate and illiterate. It is the chasm that separates scientific from prescientific cultures." -Wilson.

Insofar as this is true, then no wonder so many are stressed if not depressed and looking for xanax - we're living outside the environment in which we evolved, in which we were fitted!

I'll tell you what's "mind-boggling" - that 9/10ths or more of our makeup evolved in pre-scientific cultures much of these red in tooth and claw - and now our generations are left to make the best of it.

Epic. Heroic.

.....

Challenge yourself, shitty, don't fall for the religious rhetoric or religious framing, distinguish between the different forms of faith aka trust. You have faith in your climbing gear don't you? and I'd bet nickels to navy beans it is no baseless "blind" faith.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
I thought we settled this whole thing - that you like to dangle "God" a few years back - leaving the audience confused. Again, if we're going to be intellectually honest, you should ack your "God" or "Highest Power" is far far afield of the biblical tyrant of the Abrahamic religion. I doubt many atheists or scientists would have a problem with your impersonal god concept at all - vague as She is. The idea of "intellectual honesty" comes up here because you know American culture, far and away, has in mind the personal God of Moses and Abraham when they reference "God" so it seems rather disingenuous to take refuge in the shadows (of language, etc) and not point this out in the interest of clarity.



Fructose,

It's constantly obvious that you hate the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You hate the G-d who walked in the Garden, who came down and warned Abraham that Sodom and Gomorrah were to be destroyed and that Lot and his family would be saved. The G-d, the Angel who could forgive sins, who led the Children of Israel for 40 years through the wilderness after freeing them from slavery in Egypt. The G-d who came down as a man and humbled himself and became a man, a Rabbi, who taught us the ways of G-d, taught us to be Torah observant and what it really meant and showed us how to live by example. Then he took on the sins of the World and died for you and me, giving himself as the final ultimate sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, as The Lamb of G-d.

He was and is Yeshua HaMashiach, the Son of The Living G-d. That was Yeshua who walked in the Garden. That was Yeshua who came and ate with Abraham and warned him of the destruction of "the Cities of the Plains." That was Yeshua who could forgive sins and led the Children of Israel for 40 years through the wilderness. That was Yeshua who taught as a Rabbi who then gave himself as a ransom for sin for all mankind.

We know where the Garden more likely was located, we have found the missing rivers using remote sensing and the region is now underwater in the Persian Gulf near Kuwait.

We have found Sodom just where the Good Book said the Cities of The Plain would be, and sure enough the evidence verifies sudden hot astronomical destruction from above.

We know the people of Israel, the Jews, were in bondage for hundreds of years in Egypt. Lots of collaborating Archaeological evidence. We know they left. We know the most likely site for Mt. Sinai and where the children of Israel were encamped near the bottom of the mountain; this place and mountain is heavily guarded now by Saudi Arabia and we aren't getting in, but some have, and the evidence is convincing.

We know that Rabbi Yeshua lived snd died on a Roman cross, and his Disciples continued establishing "The Way," Messianic Judaism and began the spread of the Good News around the World that Messiah has come, and he came to forgive sin, and by accepting this gift of G-d you can be born again anew in spirit and gain everlasting life.

We have Jewish Talmud record of Yeshua and others of his disciples and verification of many of the NT stories as a result. We have Josephus's record and verification. We have a great deal of physical archaeological record of the Messianic Seal and Messianic Judaic synagogues.

We have the Dead Sea Scrolls and the evidence of the Essenes who were in very close association with the Nazarenes.

Now I know you don't want to believe it, but don't say there isn't verifiable physical evidence for all of this. There are boat loads and they keep finding more and more evidence as time goes on.

There is no other faith or religion that has so much overwhelming physical evidence as there is for the Judeo-Christian faith, aka Messianic Judaism. None other.

It is a faith built on evidence in the physical as well as the spiritual, it works. HaShem is faithful to his word. Adonai expects from us faith, but not blind faith.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Wilson,
"The human mind evolved to believe in the gods. It did not evolve to believe in biology. Acceptance of the supernatural conveyed a great advantage throughout prehistory, when the brain was evolving."

Now for the crux of the buscuit...

Insofar as this IS true, perhaps we shouldn't have a war on religion (and its fantasy myths or stories), afterall, any more than we should have a war on drugs. -Which is what many (including our smartest-brightest) are now coming around to regarding the latter. Instead, as an alternative, we should do what we can through a variety of strategies to deal with it, manage it.

"Just say no." :)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
It is not that Christianity has failed, it is that Christianity has not been tried.

And that is what boils down to the answer to the question in the OP. It is not Christianity that is the problem, it is the Christians, and what they choose to do in Christ's name.

I think the message of Christ is inspirational and compelling. Where does he spend his time? With the poor. How do you see so many Christians spending their time: trashing the poor.

Did you see Christ spending his time with the poor, primarily attempting to convert them? No, you saw him primarily healing and feeding them.

So what do I see when I go into the skid row area of my city? A remarkable lack of Christians, instead spending their time in the Ritz-Carlton, or in mega churches that used the money that should have been spent on the poor to raise an edifice to glory.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

— Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV)

And yet, in virtually every Christian church, is an idol of a crucified Jesus. So idolatry is alive and well.

Who may ascend the hill of the LORD? Who may stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear by what is false. He will receive blessing from the LORD and vindication from God his Savior.

— Psalm 24:3-5 (NIV)
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
E.O. Wilson...The most dangerous of devotions, in my opinion, is the one endemic to Christianity: I was not born to be of this world. With a second life waiting, suffering can be endured- especially in other people. The natural environment can be used up. Enemies of the faith can be savaged and suicidal martyrdom praised.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
It is not that Christianity has failed, it is that Christianity has not been tried.

But this is so akin, Ken, to...
It is not that Communism has failed, it is that Communism has not been tried.

Ken, really, it's God-Jesus for you? Somehow I was led in the past to believe you were not religious-theistic. Oh, well.

But then, medicine, as they say, is a conservative bunch. Not unlike the Grand Old Party in some respects, eh?

.....

If you want the real Christianity, see the last quote (by Bob D'A) of E.O. Wilson. Expresses my sentiments exactly. There's your counterpoint, Ken.

You've disillusioned me. :(

.....

With the meltdown in Egypt currently underway, this one seems particularly apropos...
"Every major religion today is a winner in the Darwinian struggle waged among cultures, and none ever flourished by tolerating its rivals."
Wilson
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
"...the crux of the buscuit..."
what's that?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
"...the crux of the buscuit..."

That, dear friend, is a figure of speech - like "good grief" or "speak from your heart" - meaning challenge or predicament, usually an enormous one. You do know it's originator?

In the aforementioned context, I use it to refer to the challenge (if not predicament) that perhaps the pursuit of truth shouldn't be the end all be all. Particularly as a basis for a code or program for living.

I mean, if our nervous system structures are such (by evo and natural selection) that they are susceptible to high times (either from theistic elements or drug elements) then maybe we should go with the flow and play along?

I think one could make that argument, he could.

-Which is a bonafide crux - the "crux of the biscuit" - for those who are "pursuit of truth" junkies.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
But Kos, you have crosses no doubt.

idolatry: attachment or worship of a physical object as if it were a god.

And once again klimmer, I have NO faith in ANYTHING. Zero, zip, zilch. Faith is NOT a part of my life in any way shape or form.

faith: belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Crux of the biscuit is from Zappa's Apostrophe album I think.

IME, the human brain did not evolve to believe in Gods and ghosts but to work discursively, to divide and contrast bits of the physical world so we could survive and manage our evironment. Fruity believes that the way forward is to amass enough of the right information. That is, if we just route out bad thinking, and get our data stream dialed, Valhalla will be ours.

This is an attempt to reduce humanity to the "correct" cognitive factors, which will never work - we can easily see why. But try and convince ye olde Fruitecake otherwise.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Frity believes that the way forward it to amass enough of the right information

No, you keep saying this. Over and over. In caricature.

The way to better living parallels the way to better climbing. Why can't you submit on this? Why can't you let go here? Accede to this point. Then we can make headway.

Knowing better is doing better. Through better topos. Acquiring skills or skill-sets. Through practice and training. That's it in a nutshell. In climbing. Right? In life, too. Right?

Stop the caricature and as a team we could make progress.

.....

to work discursively, to divide and contrast bits of the physical world so we could survive and manage our evironment.

I think one could make the argument that the brain evolved for all these reasons, not just this one or that one.

.....

So you didn't source the term? Damn. :)
shit tooth

Trad climber
Oklahoma City, OK
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
woohoo norwegian!

I don't like christianity because its fake. /thread
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
This is an attempt to reduce humanity to the "correct" cognitive factors,

Are climbing books an attempt to reduce climbing or climbers to anything (e.g., correct cognitive factors)?

Again, were you to stop with the caricature, wheedling and dodging and diverting, rhetoric and hyperbole, we could get some headway on this buscuit.

.....

Wes, it pains me to see that you're so insistent on using religious thinking's definition of "faith". In my view, it just plays right into the hands of these ol time Abrahamic religious supernaturalists and their belief system - not unlike their use of "God" in lieu of Jehovah aka Yahweh. But then we've already been over this.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
I haven't thrown this out there much because it would never find traction here but going on what Ed said, consciousness or perception is NOT the end of exploring "mind."

the course of science is not ever coming to "an end" but, having described something as well as it has been measured, to push those measurements even "farther" and then explain what is uncovered...

Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation does great in explaining celestial mechanics, but very precise and accurate measurements of the orbit of Mercury disagreed with the predictions. When Einstein proposed General Relativity in his 1916 paper in Annalen der Physik he saved that calculation for last:
Die Rechnung ergibt für den Planeten Merkur eine Drehung der Bahn um 43" pro Jahrhundert, genau entsprechend der Konstatierung der Astronomen (Leverrier); diese fanden nämlich einen durch Störungen der übrigen Planeten nicht erklärbaren Rest der Perihelbewegung dieses Planeten von der angegebenen Gröβe.


[The calculation results for the rotation of the planet Mercury orbit around 43 "per century, exactly in accordance with the observations of astronomers (Leverrier), which found that is not explainable by a perturbation of the other planets.]


We use Newton's law of Universal Gravity where it is applicable, and Einstein's General Relativity where it is necessary... we know that gravity will be explained in yet another way to allow us to discuss the nature of the universe at times when the gravity was strong enough to compete with the other forces... which requires a quantum theory not yet formulated.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
I love how climbers who hate Christianity, Christians and/or Christ still use the term "crux." In any case, much of this thread reminds me of an old, anonymous saying, "The atheist does not find God for the same reason the thief does not find the police."

The whole attempt to set up a dichotomy between Christianity and science is really an excuse not to look for God. I'm unaware of anything in the Bible that says that it is a textbook on cosmology, physics, biology or the scientific method. Neither am I aware of any Biblical basis for concluding that anyone discovered God by applying the scientific method.

Indeed, the Gospel of John describes Jesus's revelation that He is God precisely by miraculous signs defying the laws of physics. After all, if His actions could be duplicated, they would not be miraculous. Ultimately, the "proof," if you will, of Christianity comes from those who claim to have witnessed those signs, particularly the resurrected Christ.

When Saul of Tarsus changed because he allegedly saw the resurrected Christ, people then reacted just as they do now. Governor Festus concluded Paul was crazy. The other Apostles concluded Paul told the truth.

I still think the most logical explanation for the violent hatred of Jesus by the religious leaders of His day is precisely because He claimed deity and exclusivity. That still remains the biggest divider today. That's why the opponents of orthodox Christianity look to discredit the Bible and those who believe it. If the Biblical revelation is true, all other religion, or lack thereof, falls.

John
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
what's a "buscuit"

... "a-tisket, a-tasket
a green and yellow buscuit"..
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:19am PT
E.O. Wilson...The most dangerous of devotions, in my opinion, is the one endemic to Christianity: I was not born to be of this world. With a second life waiting, suffering can be endured- especially in other people. The natural environment can be used up. Enemies of the faith can be savaged and suicidal martyrdom praised.


Those are completely false arguments and lies. That is like saying Hitler, Nazi Germany, the SS, were all good G-d fearing and loving Christians. You can't say that. Even if they did claim to be Christians, they weren't. They lie just as their father lies. The evidence is that the leaders of the Nazi Party and the SS were into the occult. For starters, see the book ...


The Nazis and the Occult: The Dark Forces Unleashed by the Third Reich
By Paul Roland



That is a classic bait and switch. Call yourself a Christian but live like Lucifer and do all kinds of inhuman crimes and atrocities in the name of Christ.

Don't you get that there are dark powers and principalities that want nothing more than to bring down the Good name of Yeshua HaMashiach? To bring down the Good name of G-d? We don't fight against flesh and blood ...


Ephesians 6:11,12 (KJV)
[11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Yeshua said it himself, "If you love me, keep my commandments." And, "You will know them by their fruits."


I was not born to be of this world.

Context and meaning. Yeshua and his followers are in this physical world Earth, it is our home for now. We are to be in the world but not of the world. We are to be here in the physical World, but not to partake in and to be separate from the sin of the world. The physical Earth will go on for a good time longer. We are not to act and do as the World does.


With a second life waiting, suffering can be endured- especially in other people.

A second life awaits for all of us. This physical existence on Earth is not all there is. 70+ years compared to eternity is nothing. But where you will spend eternity I would think greatly matters to all of us.

Temporal suffering can be endured that we can't control when we have Yeshua in our heart, the peace, the Shalom of G-d. Are we to endure the sufferings of others? G-d forbid. Look at Yeshua's life example. He helped all people no matter their state of being. He came for the sick, the poor, the homeless, the father and motherless, the widow, those who suffered persecution. He cared, took care of them, and healed them. We are to do also. He set the example.


The natural environment can be used up.


Wrong. Adam and Eve were given the command to be good stewards of the Earth and to care for the Garden. Look at the original Hebrew. Also in the Book of Revelation, Yeshua brings judgement to those who have mistreated the Earth. "I will destroy those who destroy the Earth."

The Millennial Messianic age to come on Earth, the World is at peace, Yeshua rules the nations, and the Earth is healed like no one else can do so. He cares for the Earth and we are too also.


Enemies of the faith can be savaged and suicidal martyrdom praised.


Hello? That would be Islam not Messianic Judaism, or Christianity. Have crimes against humanity been done in Jesus Christ's name? Yes. But he had nothing to do with it. Just because you call yourself a Christian doesn't mean you are. There must be fruit for all to see to bear witness that you are indeed a believer. Yes, at times we are to be fruit inspectors. "You will know them by their fruit," ie what they do, and who they are, how they treat others.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
JohnE wrote: Ultimately, the "proof," if you will, of Christianity comes from those who claim to have witnessed those signs, particularly the resurrected Christ.



I rest my case. Claim is the key word here. :-)
WBraun

climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
And yet, in virtually every Christian church, is an idol of a crucified Jesus. So idolatry is alive and well.

Stupid gross materialist have no clue.

The body of Christ is transcendental to all materialism since God is everything to begin with.

Christ's so called material form seen by the stupid materialists is never material.

The stupid gross materialists have no clue nor any understanding of the transcendental forms of the Satyavesa avatars.

Thus they continually spout and run their mouths where they do not belong and mislead not only themselves
along with everyone else due to their puffed foolish egotistical "so called knowledge".

The gross materialists are the stupid preachers of the incomplete and cloak themselves as full of knowledge of who/what Christ is or isn't.

Stupid gross materialists .....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Klimmer wrote: Wrong. Adam and Eve were given the command to be good stewards of the Earth and to care for the Garden.


Yes and Noah's Ark saved every species on earth...yeah right.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
But it is true that Christians do a poor job in general of following their own rules, especially regarding idols.

Sad to say, you're right, Dave. Of course, I'm not sure what constitutes our "rules," given that we live under grace and not the Law, but I know both the rest of my church and I have trouble avoiding idol worship.

Unlike Old Testament days, however, our idols aren't so much dead statutes. Instead, we worship power, prestige, accomplishment, education, wealth, human praise and, really, our own puny righteousness. Humanity's oldest and most dangerous idol remains ourselves.

I also know that if there's any consistent political message in the Bible, it's concern for the weak and powerless. This permeates both the Old and New Testaments. One of my biggest criticisms of the contemporary Evangelical church is that we cede concern for the less fortunate to the government, and sit back and criticize when the government does a poor job. What are we doing ourselves? I always found it significant that when Jesus miraculously fed the 5,000, he told His disciples "You give them something to eat." [Emphasis added] Too often, we treat that instruction as "You tell somebody else to give them something to eat."

John
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
John, that's so weird!
...because yours must be a variation. The original, also anonymous, goes like this...
"The Christian, like the Muslim, does not find Science for the same reason the thief does not find the police."

Clearly, I'm sure you would agree, the original makes more sense. ;)

.....

For Wes,
religious faith: belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

There, corrected it for you.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
"The atheist does not find God for the same reason the thief does not find the police."

interesting saying, turning it around, if you go about your life without violating the law, the police may never find you...

if everyone does that, there is no need for the police.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Clearly, I'm sure you would agree, the original makes more sense. ;)

Good one, HFCS! Sorry, but I don't buy that.

I'm something of the black sheep of my mother's family, because I'm the only male without a Ph.D. in the physical sciences. I have three male first cousins on that side of the family. Each is a very active Evangelical Christian. Two have their doctorates in Physics. One recently went Emeritus at the University of Lyon. One taught at the French University of Beirut before coming to the United States, where he is now in semi-retirement. My other cousin has his doctorate in molecular biology and is a director of research for a major pharmaceutical company in Montreal.

Accordingly, if I use the scientific method, I would reject a model that says that Christians don't find science. While I don't have any Muslims in my family, I know many, and I'm sure that there are millions of counterexamples there, too.

Now as for the atheists . . .

John
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Klimmer wrote: Wrong. Adam and Eve were given the command to be good stewards of the Earth and to care for the Garden.


Yes and Noah's Ark saved every species on earth...yeah right.




Bob,


The Bible never claims that the Ark saved all creatures, it couldn't. Some didn't have to get on the Ark. The aquatic life, the plant life, perhaps species that had become wickedly corrupted ...


You might want to read the Book of Enoch to know how bad mankind and all of creation on Earth had become. G-d had to destroy it and hit the reset button. You'll never know how bad it was unless you read the book.


Who are you to tell G-d what to do?


Noah took aver a 100 years to build the Ark, all the while telling the world around him that judgement cometh. They had an opportunity to change or even get on the Ark. No one but Noah's family did so. They mocked him.


Kinda like what is happening today. Yeshua said, "the last days will be as the days of Noah." Same thing happening here today. But G-d promised not to destroy the Earth again with a flood. The sign would be the physical rainbow the visible spectrum of light.

Makes me wonder why the Gay community chose a rainbow flag as their symbol. Part of me thinks its the gay community holding up a truce flag to G-d trying to remind G-d, "Hey you promised you wouldn't destroy us with a flood. You promised!!!!" And he won't. He's long suffering. But he won't wait forever for people to come to repentance. There is a deadline.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
HFCS, it didn't need correcting... that is the definition of faith.

faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
Good point, Ed. Of course, Christianity has a core belief that no one but Jesus Christ lived without violating the law. That, too, may explain its unpopularity with those who consider themselves righteous.

Yes, I know. "Those who consider themselves righteous" describes far too many "Christians," too.

John
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Klimmer wrote: Noah took aver a 100 years to build the Ark.


Wow..and he lived maybe 4 or 5 longer more than the average lifespan for that time and also built a boat of such magnitude well into maybe the age of 125.


Mysticism at it's finest.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
The Bible has its own definition of faith that preceded Webster's, and Webster's can be thought of as commentary on the Bible definition, which is still valid, its still useful ...



Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."



Like I said HaShem does not expect us to exercise blind faith, but faith that has some substance, some evidence for being true and trustworthy. Do we have all the evidence for everything? No. So we have to exercise faith. Without faith it is impossible to please G-d.


Imagine if your children didn't exercise faith in you as their parent ...

How grievous would that be? Proving everything you say and do to gain their trust every day, no matter what, would be unbelievably impossible to do. You'd want to give your child away at some point, you couldn't take it.

Imagine if you had a climbing partner who was like that. You wouldn't get anything done. Why bother climbing with them?

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Part of me thinks its the gay community holding up a truce flag to G-d trying to remind G-d, "Hey you promised you wouldn't destroy us with a flood. You promised!!!!" And he won't. He's long suffering. But he won't wait forever for people to come to repentance. There is a deadline.

THAT is why people hate christianity so much. A bunch of self-absorbed as#@&%es who insist their silly fairy tale world applies to everyone else.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:37am PT
Klimmer wrote: Noah took aver a 100 years to build the Ark.


Wow..and he lived maybe 4 or 5 longer more than the average lifespan for that time and also built a boat of such magnitude well into maybe the age of 125.


Mysticism at it's finest.

No many lived long lives then that we know the genealogy for.

In the Millennial Messianic Age to come a child who is a hundred years old will be considered young! Read you Bible.

Yea, there are physical benefits to living the way G-d wants us to. It also changes the physical Earth for the better to allow for longer life. After the flood, G-d said he would reduce our time on Earth to about 120 years, and sure enough no one really lives longer than that now.

But coming to a planet near you, Earth, age will increase again during the Kingdom of Yeshua. Pretty darn cool. Just think of all the climbing projects you can accomplish in that amount of time. ;-))
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 16, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
"...the crux of the buscuit..."
what's that?

It's the apostrophe! Surprising lack of Zappa fans here.

The poodle bites, the poodle chews it...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
Klimmer wrote: No many lived long lives then that we know the genealogy for.



Could you actually proof that with some scientific evidence.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
With today's events in Cairo, this seems apropos...
"When the martyr's righteous forebrain is exploded by the executioner's bullet and his mind disintegrates, what then? Can we safely assume that all those millions of neural circuits will be reconstituted in an immaterial state, so the conscious mind carries on?"
Wilson
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
Malemute,


Read The Book of Enoch. Then you will understand why G-d did what he did.

G-d did give those around a chance. Maybe there were others who didn't have their DNA corrupted either, but then they didn't take Noah's advice. They mocked him.

All mankind had become corrupted. The DNA, the genetics, with Fallen Angels, and their offspring the Nephilim. More than likely the Nephilim intermarried with man and all of man's genetic DNA was corrupted, not to mention the wickedness that all mankind was doing everyday before G-d. Their thoughts were continually wicked.

It was bad. You had Fallen Angels mating with Earthly beautiful women. Their offspring called the Nephilim were half fallen angels and half fallen man. They were big, strong, and devilishly smart and corrupt. No doubt they interbred with man. They also began to eat man, canabolism. It's where we get our Greek myths and heroes. They were Nephilim and acted like gods, little g.

The only man to find grace in G-d's eyes was Noah and his family. Somehow they were not corrupted and he was a man of G-d. He listened to G-d.



In science we know that the entire planet Earth has been flooded several times. Watch "The History of Earth," the History Channel, a great Earth Science DVD. Since the evidence shows that the Earth has been flooded completely several times, then why not when G-d did it to destroy what wickedness all of his creation had become?



Edit:

Hey!!! Ding. Ding. Post 700. A very good number.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
A couple posters on this thread certainly exemplify this one...
"Old beliefs die hard even when demonstrably false."
Wilson
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Klimmer wrote: No many lived long lives then that we know the genealogy for.



Could you actually proof that with some scientific evidence.


Only the genealogy of the Good Book. Accept it or reject it. I accept it since so much in the Bible keeps getting verified over and over again.


I think G-d likes skeptics, because as time goes on G-d keeps allowing us to discover proofs that help our unbelief. He said, "knock and the door shall be opened unto you. Seek and you will find." That is a promise. And when we do, Voila! we find what we are looking for. Pretty cool if you ask me.

G-d is brilliant. :-))


Funny how we now call the oldest living tree, "Methuselah," a Bristle Cone Pine above Bishop in The White Mountains, with a name taken straight from The Good Book in Genesis. Yes Methuselah lived a long time ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah
Extra-biblical tradition maintains that he died on the 11th of Cheshvan of the year 1656 (Anno Mundi, after Creation), at the age of 969, seven days before the beginning of the Great Flood.[3] Methuselah was the son of Enoch and the grandfather of Noah.
The name Methuselah, or the phrase "old as Methuselah", is commonly used to refer to any living thing reaching great age.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 16, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
I haven't thrown this out there much because it would never find traction here but going on what Ed said, consciousness or perception is NOT the end of exploring "mind."

the course of science is not ever coming to "an end" but, having described something as well as it has been measured, to push those measurements even "farther" and then explain what is uncovered...


What I meant is that per the science or exploration of "mind," whatever that means to you, cognition itself is not the last and final item to explore, not that we should quite exploring by whatever means you see fit and which fit your temperament. Everyone doesn't have a feel for the non-discursive, just as everyone can't manage high level physics. But everyone in their own way can keep pusing into the mystery. The fact that the mystery of mind might consider realms beyond or before consciousness and perception is a new one for me.

And Fruity, you keep complaining that I am ridiculing you as simple minded or shallow/narrow but I'm curious abouit this. It always seemed to me that you operated on the idea that the only truths we needed to move forward were scientific - meaing facts and figures per the physical realm,. And from there we would judiciously apply this "corect" information to the Science of Living. If you are drawing your truths from deeper wells, and if you are drawing more than information and data, what "well" are your talking about, and what is the payload other than cognitive data?

JL
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
A Final Word On Biblical Nonsense
The Hebrew god is a loathsome, despiteful, and abominable deity.
The Bible fails a plethora of independent and unbiased scientific tests.
The Bible demonstrates overwhelming evidence of authorship by fallible, divinely uninspired humans.
There are fundamental flaws with the existence of God as described in the Bible.
The life account of Jesus Christ is highly questionable.
Christians believe strange things for strange reasons.
Counterarguments used by Christian apologists are often dishonest or irrelevant.

more at http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/outro.html



That is a complete whitewash and 100% Bovine Dung.


Give specific examples and lets hear each. You better know Hebrew for the OT and Greek for the NT, and quote in context and not out of context. You also better know Judaism.

So let's hear it. One at a time.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
They do seem to gloss over the part where every child on earth dies by drowning.


You're not being honest. All mankind had become corrupted, through DNA and complete wickedness. Only Noah and his family found favor in G-d's sight by that time.


Who are you to tell G-d what to do? He told you what happened. He told you what he would do. He told you why he was doing it. And then he did it.

So, somehow you can counsel G-d?

Boy, you'd better read the Book of Job.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Due to the overwhelming amount of scientific errors the book possesses, you should have great comfort in deciding that there was no divine inspiration or intervention involved during its creation.
--

This is all-or-nothing reasoning, known in psychology as thought distortion, a cognitive error on par with believing that Jonah actually spent time traiping around Moby Dick's tripe.

JL
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
Since the evidence shows that the Earth has been flooded completely several times,

I would love to read your scientific sources that state the above. I can believe that for discreet sections at a time, but completely all at once? Really- just one credible peer reviewed scientific source with evidence.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
This is getting really funny.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Since the evidence shows that the Earth has been flooded completely several times,

I would love to read your scientific sources that state the above. I can believe that for discreet sections at a time, but completely all at once? Really- just one credible peer reviewed scientific source with evidence.


For layman and scientists needing a quick overview or review I recommend on all the latest theories we have evidence for ...

How the Earth Was Made
History Channel
http://www.history.com/shows/how-the-earth-was-made/videos

They go through it all very specifically and in correct geological time sequence, and yes the Earth was flooded several times, and they also go through "snow ball Earth" etc. A very good DVD.


http://shop.history.com/?v=history_show_how-the-earth-was-made&ecid=PRF-2101086&pa=PRF-2101086

Did you know our planet is 4.5 billion years old or that the oceans were formed by rainfall that lasted literally millions of years or that 700 million years ago, earth was completely covered by ice that was a mile thick with surface temperatures reaching minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit? Go on and geek out with the full collection of History Channel’s How the Earth Was Made DVDs. With spectacular onsite location shooting and new discoveries from scientists, these episodes will have you on the edge of your seat and eating up geological knowledge about our planet’s formation.


Yes, the Earth was covered with water several times, several different events. Watch the film. It includes the latest theories we have evidence for. One of the best films on the subject I've seen.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Yes a television show is exactly the peer reviewed scientific source I was hoping you'd respond with. NOT.

Ya know, I used to watch a show about a kid and a donkey that could melt into any book for a rollicking adventure. Pretty sure that was real too.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Since the evidence shows that the Earth has been flooded completely several times,

The volume of water required to flood Mt Everest is more than 3 TIMES the amount of water presently on Earth.
http://www.epicidiot.com/evo_cre/noahs_flood.htm#how_much_water


The Earth was flooded from the beginning as the film shows. Prior to the engine that began plate tectonics occurred, prior to India slamming into Eurasia and forming the Himalaya mountains.

I just stated that there is scientific evidence that the Earth, the entire Earth has been flooded several times, not when.

Do I accept that G-d flooded the Earth to create Noah's flood? Yes I do. Can I prove it and show exactly how it happened? No I can't. But I can show the evidence that Earth has been flooded several time in Earth's history. Hey, this is pretty recent scientific evidence and admittance for the scientific community to say , yes the world has been flooded before in Earth's history. That was a big step to make. They probably didn't want to make that step, because they knew what it meant ...

Even the Good Book talks about this event:

Gen.1:1,2 (KJV)
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


At the beginning the Earth was flooded. The Bible said so even before man figured it out scientifically.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
Yes a television show is exactly the peer reviewed scientific source I was hoping you'd respond with. NOT.

Ya know, I used to watch a show about a kid and a donkey that could melt into any book for a rollicking adventure. Pretty sure that was real too.


Skeptic,


Are you for real? This DVD is sold across public education science catalogs, and it is all based on scientific peer reviewed studies. It brings it all together. My Earth science students see this film. Goes through the Earth's evolution over the last 4.56B years in detail and proper sequence.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Yes, I am "for real." You cite a television show that purportedly brings together scientists who have studied this phenomenom, but you don't actually provide one peer-reviewed citation. If you've got the DVD, why not whip out a credible cite?

The closest I could come after searching google scholar was a 2008 paper in a planetary science journal stating that while the flooding was extensive, there still was 2-3% of land uncovered. I just want one that shows one flood. I would be amazed to find more than one instance of even this extensive coverage as you seem to claim.

Problem for you is that such science is far from conclusive and you want to believe sooo much that there was a Noah's Ark that you put your blinders on. So if Noah existed some billions of years ago, I think we'd have to account for a lot more human anthropological history than the current state of evidence allows.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
http://shop.history.com/?v=history_show_how-the-earth-was-made&ecid=PRF-2101086&pa=PRF-2101086

Did you know our planet is 4.5 billion years old or that the oceans were formed by rainfall that lasted literally millions of years or that 700 million years ago, earth was completely covered by ice that was a mile thick with surface temperatures reaching minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit?


Google their claim in the scientific film ...


the oceans were formed by rainfall that lasted literally millions of years


They didn't pull this out of thin air or a magic hat.




http://www.amazon.com/How-Earth-Made-History-Channel/dp/B00126808K

Read the reviews at amazon, several by university geologists. We all rave about it.


I'm sure the studies exist and a number of them.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:53pm PT

http://shop.history.com/?v=history_show_how-the-earth-was-made&ecid=PRF-2101086&pa=PRF-2101086

Did you know our planet is 4.5 billion years old or that the oceans were formed by rainfall that lasted literally millions of years or that 700 million years ago, earth was completely covered by ice that was a mile thick with surface temperatures reaching minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit?


Nothing about a global flood there Klimmer, unless you think that ice and water are the same thing.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
I'd like to climb it someday.

Prolly will need a rope gun.

Dave,

If you find a suitable rope gun, can I tag along? I figure that you and the rope gun together can pull me over anything I can't get up on my own.

;>)

John
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
Again- a film documentary is NOT a scientific peer-reviewed study. This view is very controversial and by no means universally accepted. I know I cannot change your view and desperate need to cling to any shred of hope that your view of GOD is valid. I frankly hold no such view and don't need to have my existence validated by a television show. Carry on.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 01:53pm PT

http://shop.history.com/?v=history_show_how-the-earth-was-made&ecid=PRF-2101086&pa=PRF-2101086

Did you know our planet is 4.5 billion years old or that the oceans were formed by rainfall that lasted literally millions of years or that 700 million years ago, earth was completely covered by ice that was a mile thick with surface temperatures reaching minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit?


Nothing about a global flood there Klimmer, unless you think that ice and water are the same thing.

"the oceans were formed by rainfall that lasted literally millions of years"


Just watch the film. They CGI everything in the DVD really well. Great production. 1st planetary accretion, bombardment, hot, molten etc. Then eventually cooled and then Earth was completely flooded covering all, raining for millions of years (ok the film says covering more than 90%), then comet bombardment brought water too, and since tectonics and granitic continental crust development hadn't happened yet everything was underwater. Then tectonics and the continental crust begins to form. Atmosphere of O2 enrichment develops. Then eventually snowball Earth occurs, then it melts, and the Earth is flooded again. Yada, yada, yada. It goes into specific detail on what, when, and how ...



Aug 16, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
Again- a film documentary is NOT a scientific peer-reviewed study. This view is very controversial and by no means universally accepted. I know I cannot change your view and desperate need to cling to any shred of hope that your view of GOD is valid. I frankly hold no such view and don't need to have my existence validated by a television show. Carry on.


What a bunch of bovine dung. It's based on the latest theories in the proper sequence. The full story is being worked out very well from multiple evidences.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erdős

He had his own idiosyncratic vocabulary: Although an atheist,[37][38] he spoke of "The Book", an imaginary book in which God had written down the best and most elegant proofs for mathematical theorems.[39] Lecturing in 1985 he said, "You don't have to believe in God, but you should believe in The Book." He himself doubted the existence of God, whom he called the "Supreme Fascist" (SF).[40][41] He accused the SF of hiding his socks and Hungarian passports, and of keeping the most elegant mathematical proofs to himself. When he saw a particularly beautiful mathematical proof he would exclaim, "This one's from The Book!". This later inspired a book entitled Proofs from THE BOOK.


"The SF created us to enjoy our suffering," Erdős said. "The sooner we die, the sooner we defy His plans."


in the documentary N Is a Number: A Portrait of Paul Erdős he describes "the game"

"Now the game with the SF is defined as follows: If you do something bad, the SF gets at least two points. If you don't do something good which you could have done, the SF gets at least one point. And if you are okay, nobody gets any points. And the aim is to keep the SF score low."

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
How the Earth was Made
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLMeA3M_PaU

[Click to View YouTube Video]



There. I found it. You get to watch it for free.


Can I hear a thank you?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Yes, Klimmer, thank you for debunking yourself.

Your vid never said the supercontinent Rodinia was flooded 700ma, Klimmer. It existed before the snowball period, was covered in ice, then was uncovered. No global flood.

Go to 38 minutes.

PS: The water world at about 4000ma covered 90% of earth, not the entire earth.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Your vid never said the supercontinent Rodinia was flooded 700ma, Klimmer. It existed before the snowball period, was covered in ice, then was uncovered. No global flood.

Go to 38 minutes. Thanks for debunking yourself.

PS: The water world at 4000ma years covered 90% of earth, not the entire earth.


Yes, you are right I was speaking from memory. I watched it again now though.

But you're quibbling. Would you say if your home was flooded covering more than 90% of it, would you say your home was flooded? Yes you would.

You guys didn't even want to accept that modern science also accepts the Earth was flooded from near the beginning, 4.0B years ago. Accretion, bombardment, and entire magma oceans occurred first of course, before the dynamics of the rain and formations of the oceans covering over 90% on the surface of Earth. Then after snow-ball Earth its flooded again.

You didn't want to accept that, and one was calling that very controversial. Perhaps, but that is what the evidence suggests.



And whether someone thinks Genesis 1:2 refers to the near the very beginning of Earth or after "the gap theory" after the fall of Angels it seems to be talking about the same period of time 4.0B years ago when Earth was more than 90% covered with water prior to the continents ...


Gen.1:1,2 (KJV)
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Not if I was on the 10%.

All this is well before even plant life existed, let alone mammals. To use these events to give credence to Noah's flood is hysterical.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
They CGI everything in the DVD

Precisely.

And thank you for finally admitting that there is no proof of the Earth being "completely covered" in an ocean. Semantics are important when you are trying to validate a scientifically based argument.

what the evidence suggests.

Again- precisely.

Man, I weep for the poor little minds that get placed in your classroom.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Not if I was on the 10%.

All this is well before even plant life existed, let alone mammals. To use these events to give credence to Noah's flood is hysterical.


I'm not using this as evidence for Noah's flood. I never said that.

I said that even in the scientific community we now know the Earth was flooded and several times. So for someone to say there is no evidence that the Earth has been flooded would be wrong. Could the Earth have flooded at another time? Sure. I think so. I'm not saying we know the whole story precisely and perfectly. It is all theoretical, but theories are based on at least some evidence.

I'm pretty sure your insurance company would say if your home was 90% underwater that your home was flooded. Lol.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
Nope. We just went thru all that. The earth was not flooded several times.

There was one 90% event 4000ma, long before even Rodinia was formed.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
Ed, good one.

I've been working in "evil theory" lately esp in the context of game theory in evolutionary ecological terms. So that was interesting.

Also, I like the idea of an "idiosyncratic vocabulary" either employed by an individual or group. Hard to express further right now but something along the lines of an "idiosyncratic vocabulary," I think, will actually be the stepping stone out of the languaging morass our generation finds itself in (trying to express these new but difficult subjects before a religious peanut gallery) in the aftermath of English and Christianity growing up together.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Nope. We just went thru all that. The earth was not flooded several times.

There was one 90% event 4000ma.


Mono,


You're not being honest. You can say 90% flooded, and after the breakup of snow-ball Earth, and the breakup of Rodinia, flooded to a less percent, I don't know 75%?

Q: Is the Earth surface covered, or "flooded" today?

A: Yes, more than 70%.



http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/oceanwater.html

The ocean covers more than 70 percent of the surface of our planet.

You just don't want to use the term "flooded." A term too close to a Biblical story for your taste I suppose.

Its Semantics as has been suggested.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
You've got a pretty sloppy mind, Klimmer, so it's easy to see how you can imagine an ark on the moon and a missile fired over LA.

You did make good progress today by learning that your claim that the earth was completely flooded several times was wrong.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
I might have a normal forgetful mind just like anyone, and forget the specific details of a film, I'm human, my apologies for being forgetful and human.

However, I'm not with purposeful intent trying to worm away from the use of a very common word that I used properly, such as flood to describe the Earth being flooded with water, ie being covered with water. Floods don't have to be complete. (However, in terms of Noah's flood it does, since it describes specifically how much the mountains were under water.) But we aren't talking about that specific event but the flood of water covering more than 90% of the Earth 4.0B years ago, and perhaps the flood after snow-ball Earth melted, which was less perhaps 75% ...

You guys didn't want to admit at first that the Earth was inundated, flooded, with water in Earth's geologic past and is an accepted theory in the Earth Science community based on all the oldest Zircon crystals we can find the world over that verify they formed underwater.

My original argument is that the Earth has been flooded before in geologic history. Ok, according to the theory it wasn't complete 90% and then 75% and now more than 70%. I didn't remember the specifics correctly from memory.

Again you don't seem to want to use the term flood, but its very correct to do so.



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flood

Definition of FLOOD

1
a : a rising and overflowing of a body of water especially onto normally dry land; also : a condition of overflowing <rivers in flood>
b capitalized : a flood described in the Bible as covering the earth in the time of Noah
2
: the flowing in of the tide
3
: an overwhelming quantity or volume; also : a state of abundant flow or volume —often used in the phrase in full flood <a debate in full flood>
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
I like how you shift from completely flooded to varying degrees of water coverage changing. You could have been a good lawyer or politician.

I don't mind the word flood. In and of itself it does not mean much. The earth completely flooded is something else.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
You've got a pretty sloppy mind, Klimmer, so it's easy to see how you can imagine an ark on the moon and a missile fired over LA.


Mono,

When are you gonna let it go?

I never really meant "Ark" on the Moon. You know this. I said that in fun to get a rise from everyone. It worked. Lol. Is there a massive "Mothership" there, I think so. We have lots of original Apollo NASA images from Apollo 15 and Apollo 17. Moonwalker Edgar Mitchell in one of his interviews admits there are spacecraft on the backside of the Moon.

I never said there was a missile fired over L.A. It was fired away from LA out in the Pacific Ocean going West high into the atmosphere.

You just can't help being wrong. It sits sore with you I can tell. Too funny.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
You are right about the missile direction claim, I should have said the plane over LA that you claimed was a missile.

You never understood that it was a plane flying west despite the pics from all angles. Even tried to get a TV station to give you high def footage so you could prove it was a missile.

They get kooks contacting them all the time, so they know how to deal.
WBraun

climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
Mono you stupid jackass it was a Chinese missile launched from a sub.

It was all over the news.

You American morons only see your stupid censored news.

Americans are morons .....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
The actual videographer who took the video did contact me. I explained the technique for 3D, he understands no doubt, he knows what he saw.

He never changed his story. He also knows someone doesn't want it to be known. TPTB don't want people to know the truth. I don't think he was going to be allowed to give out the high def imagery no matter what.

Perhaps it really was North Koreans, or Chinese, pulling a bold move, and that would be an unbelievable embarrassment to our government now wouldn't it? Can't have gramps thinking we got commies off our coast shooting missiles now can we? Lol.




Uh oh, now you did it ... lol.






Stereo pair panoramas:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630



The Massive "Ark" (joke people) or Mothership on the backside of the Moon is still there!
Many more official NASA images from AS15. So how many stereo-pairs can I make from all of these images? Lol.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1036.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1037.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1038.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1039.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1040.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1041.jpg

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1332.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1333.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1334.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1335.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1336.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1337.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1338.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1339.jpg



Someone put some effort into this. Many more matches are possible ...


dirtbag

climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Nice going mono... ;-)
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
Sorry about that.

Enough said. Carry on.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 16, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
Klimmer,

Say everything you were purporting was true. How much more would you uunderstand about your own life (NOT others, including "God") as you live it, minute to minute? And to those doubting Arks were actually built and no body walked on no water - how are you wiser for the nobel effort of debunking the historical verity of alegories and metaphors?

Most of these comments are merely rants and people seeking alies in the "aren't we the sharp ones" club.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Say everything you were purporting was true. How much more would you uunderstand about your own life (NOT others, including "God") as you live it, minute to minute? And to those doubting Arks were actually built and no body walked on no water - how are you wiser for the nobel effort of debunking the historical verity of alegories and metaphors?

Most of these comments are merely rants and people seeking alies in the "aren't we the sharp ones" club.

Rather ironic if you ask those same questions of yourself. Aren't we the enlightened one, eh?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
Living is easy with eyes closed. ;)

.....

Congratulations, you've all upset Klimmer.

Many here on this thread are relative newbies, they weren't here a few years back. They have no idea what it means to get sucked into the crazy stupid Klimmer Universe.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
Klimmer:

Ok! As for those grid lines or latitudes/longitudes for that rocket in Los Angeles guess you never looked or took the time: faith is all you needed plus evidence.

Hang on at the end it will say the direction this is going. Faith, belief, evidence or …………………..


Mystery Rocket Launched Off Californian Coast

People said it a missile from an Israel submarine, North Korean sub, There was some conjecture that this launch may have been a show of U.S. military might during President Obama’s visit to Asia 2010]; no secret in that the U.S. and China have been developing surface-to-orbit missiles over recent years; perhaps this is another step in the development of these technologies. In this case — especially if the missile is unproven — the military would want to keep the launch secret to avoid any embarrassing mishaps like the recent [2010] Russian ballistic missile failure.

Wait here is an expert and his opinion:

“Despite the overwhelming similarities between the mystery “missile” and the contrail of a rocket launch, there may be a very simple explanation: It could be an optical illusion.

As detailed by New Scientist, Jonathan McDowell, an astronomer from the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics who tracks space launches, says it was probably an aircraft passing overhead, rather than a vertical rocket launch.

“If it’s coming over the horizon, straight at you, then it rises quickly above the horizon,” said McDowell. “You can’t tell because it’s so far away that it’s getting closer to you – you’d think it was just going vertically up.”

Then all the military What? Where? When? Who? BS crap

“However, no one is claiming responsibility. The U.S. military seems baffled, U.S. airspace was not notified of any commercial satellite launches, no regional Air Force bases had any launches planned and all we’re left with are scores of theories as to what it might be.”
Then even went to say:

NORAD and USNORTHCOM are aware of the unexplained contrail reported off the coast of Southern California yesterday evening. At this time, we are unable to provide specific details, but we are working to determine the exact nature of this event. We can confirm that there is no threat to our nation, and from all indications this was not a launch by a foreign military. We will provide more information as it becomes available.
Is this some covert military operation? Was the U.S. even responsible?
Disinformation? Cover ups, secrets: Seems you get a lot of that. You are not alone:

It is an island, what island: This Island:



Here are the roads and where could launch areas be? Google Earth it, might see a launch pad or concrete bunker or two.


What goes on this island? Could it be is used as a weapons testing. Yes

Strange things go on all the time down there: There are private contractors that test their systems to sell to Uncle Sam and that was exactly what it was; no need to tell anyone none of their business. If you are in that area or even close with a boat there are warning buoys; small aircraft areas are closed off so many meters mostly the area facing west.

So what in the F8ch does this have to do with the bible and god. Same thing disinformation, confusion, incorrect information, words mixed up, stories a little over blown or made up. It is called Human Nature for personal/political/religious gain and to scare or confuse/mislead for personal/political/religious gain.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Klimmer,

Say everything you were purporting was true. How much more would you uunderstand about your own life (NOT others, including "God") as you live it, minute to minute? And to those doubting Arks were actually built and no body walked on no water - how are you wiser for the nobel effort of debunking the historical verity of alegories and metaphors?

Most of these comments are merely rants and people seeking alies in the "aren't we the sharp ones" club.

JL


Most of these comments are merely rants and people seeking alies in the "aren't we the sharp ones" club.

Easiest question to answer ... I know this is true. ST for everyone can be a huge time sink for everyone including the sharp ones, but it is fun to debate no doubt. I do learn, believe it or not. It does make me think in other directions. It does make me think, well why do I believe this? What are the evidences? Apologetics for sure.


Say everything you were purporting was true. How much more would you uunderstand about your own life



Hey, I will be the first to admit I don't know everything. Attending a Messianic Synagogue having grown up in Christendom, has been humbling. I'm learning leaps and bounds more than at any other time in my walk with G-d before. I'm beginning to learn Hebrew now. Alef-bet-vet ... Want to know G-d better? Want to know the Judeo-Christian G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Then talk to Messianic Jews, Rabbis, who come from Judaism. The Jews have been wrestling with G-d and the word of G-d for over 3000 years! Think they know a tonne? You bet they do. It has been an amazing experience and I have met many who think just like me. We can talk about everything and in depth. (Even Motherships on the Moon, and what does that really mean, Lol.) Really great people of G-d.

I know that the Book of Nature, agrees with the Book of G-d. I have no doubt about that. I enjoy studying both. And that is where Science and G-d and apologetics comes in. Similar to Newton, but at a far lesser intellectual level. He was way into natural philosophy, the study of science and the study of G-d. They really go hand in hand if you want to know the full truth and not just half of it.

More importantly its about love. I'm a better person to my kids, to my family, to my friends, and the people around me, for knowing what I know. It changes you. The born-again experience is real and supernatural. I have a great deal of hope for the future. I don't fear like I used to for our future. I know what's coming. I can share it to, and I'm asked to share it with others.

I hope no one thinks that the way people act on ST is the way they really are in real life. Sure on ST I like to push buttons just like everyone, but I try not to offend or call people names. There is a fair and just way to debate.

Also knowing what I know can cause lose. There is a cost. There are many reasons why my wife went out the door, many not my doing, but one of them is we don't see eye to eye on theology. She is a new babe in the Lord, and I've been around the block longer. She never wants to talk about these things. Never. Knowing the truth can lead to losing someone. Yeshua said it would happen. There is a cost to following HaShem. Not everyone is going to like us. He said that would happen in our lives. Like Rabbi Shaul, the Apostle Paul, I lost my wife when I came back to G-d. I care for her and I pray for her. I'm a better person for going through this. I have a lot more compassion to for people going through divorce. I never thought it would happen to me, now I know what it feels like. I'm there.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
I lost my wife when I came back to G-d.

G-d
A way of avoiding writing a name of G-d, to avoid the risk of the sin of erasing or defacing the Name.

See:
The Name of G-d
The Nature of G-d
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
HFCS writes:

Ken, really, it's God-Jesus for you? Somehow I was led in the past to believe you were not religious-theistic. Oh, well.

But then, medicine, as they say, is a conservative bunch. Not unlike the Grand Old Party in some respects, eh?

.....

If you want the real Christianity, see the last quote (by Bob D'A) of E.O. Wilson. Expresses my sentiments exactly. There's your counterpoint, Ken.

I think you misunderstand what I wrote. I am not pushing the Jesus agenda, I am trying to answer the OP question.

My answer is that they don't hate Christianity, but rather those who do things in it's name. If the followers of Christianity actually followed the example of Jesus, no one would hate any of it.

As for E.O Wilson, I agree with him. It is not that what he says is what is the doctrine of the faith, it is the doctrine of those who follow the faith in their demented way.

It is the unmindful and uncritical lack of understanding of Jesus' message that causes Christians to be unlike Jesus, and to do such horrible things down the ages.

Those who practice medicine defy a simple categorization. I've seen some of the worst robber-barons, and some of the most giving, humble people. Would I say that the average doctor is conservative? Possibly. I think it varies tremendously by region.

But one has to be careful about averages.
Is the average 80 year old person conservative? Perhaps. But remember that the average 80 year-old person is dead.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Fetch Norton. Don't you know that G-d's name is fricken sacred? Common ashholes can't be fricken tossing it around like it ain't no thang.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Hello? That would be Islam not Messianic Judaism, or Christianity. Have crimes against humanity been done in Jesus Christ's name? Yes. But he had nothing to do with it. Just because you call yourself a Christian doesn't mean you are.

EXACTLY my point.

Of course, EVERY Christian (by their definition) thinks they are the exception, they are the TRUE believer, THEIR interpretation is right.

Therein lies the problem
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 16, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Rather ironic if you ask those same questions of yourself. Aren't we the enlightened one, eh?


You might consider changing medications there Cintune, because the one you're talking is only making you old and bitter and rude.

As I recall, you were one who lacked the requisite sack and honesty to ever posit a true question to anyone. That's the picture of someone glutted on pride. At least Klimmer has the capacity to answer from a real place when pushed to it. But verily, you Cintune, just keep hucking sloppy Joe back on the other guy.

Me thinks we need to get Fruity to spank you properly then you can join Marlow in the corner till you sack it up and learn to say what you mean and mean what you say - not about THE OTHER GUY, rather about your our self. It might not be much, but we all know Cintune is all you ever think about.

JL

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Lost,

Not to high-jack this thread. I'll say it with evidence then let it go ...


All I can say is that it was a missile. I don't know who fired it. There are deep suspicions no doubt. Does Uncle Sam know? Of course he does. But he doesn't want to panic the public. We can't have gramps having a heart attack over what really happened. So lie. And then here we are.


Are all of these image precise with correct azimuths and distances? No. They were done quick. But they are accurate enough to know it wasn't a plane or jet coming out of the ocean.















monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
^^ debunked many times ^^

http://contrailscience.com/los-angeles-missile-contrail-explained-in-pictures/

From Long Beach:



From LAX (north of Long Beach):


Simple trigonometry shows the 'missile' (a jet, UPS902) was going east over LA.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
You're not being honest. All mankind had become corrupted, through DNA and complete wickedness. Only Noah and his family found favor in G-d's sight by that time.


Who are you to tell G-d what to do? He told you what happened. He told you what he would do. He told you why he was doing it. And then he did it.

So, somehow you can counsel G-d?

Boy, you'd better read the Book of Job.

Really? After reading Job, I find no mention of DNA.

So you are saying that every 1-day old baby was corrupted, instead of innocent, as defined by almost everybody?

Why would that not have been a totally reasonable and logical and faithful reason to allow abortion at that time, in that population?

And how, based upon your biblical works, is that not true right now, today.
Why would that not be a logical and reasonable reason to allow abortion TODAY?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
You might consider changing medications there Cintune, because the one you're talking is only making you old and bitter and rude.

:(
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
Due to the overwhelming amount of scientific errors the book possesses, you should have great comfort in deciding that there was no divine inspiration or intervention involved during its creation.
--

This is all-or-nothing reasoning, known in psychology as thought distortion, a cognitive error on par with believing that Jonah actually spent time traiping around Moby Dick's tripe.

JL

What you've said here, John, is why I find the Catholic approach much more attractive:

Pope Pius XII, a deeply conservative man, directly addressed the issue of evolution in a 1950 encyclical, Humani Generis. The document makes plain the pope’s fervent hope that evolution will prove to be a passing scientific fad, and it attacks those persons who “imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution …explains the origin of all things.” Nonetheless, Pius XII states that nothing in Catholic doctrine is contradicted by a theory that suggests one specie might evolve into another—even if that specie is man. The Pope declared:

The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experiences in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.

In other words, the Pope could live with evolution, so long as the process of “ensouling” humans was left to God. (He also insisted on a role for Adam, whom he believed committed a sin— mysteriously passed along through the “doctrine of original sin”—that has affected all subsequent generations.) Pius XII cautioned, however, that he considered the jury still out on the question of evolution’s validity. It should not be accepted, without more evidence, “as though it were a certain proven doctrine.” (ROA, 81)

Pope John Paul II revisited the question of evolution in a 1996 a message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. Unlike Pius XII, John Paul is broadly read, and embraces science and reason. He won the respect of many scientists in 1993, when in April 1993 he formally acquitted Galileo, 360 years after his indictment, of heretical support for Copernicus’s heliocentrism. The pontiff began his statement with the hope that “we will all be able to profit from the fruitfulness of a trustful dialogue between the Church and science.” Evolution, he said, is “an essential subject which deeply interests the Church.” He recognized that science and Scripture sometimes have “apparent contradictions,” but said that when this is the case, a “solution” must be found because “truth cannot contradict truth.” The Pope pointed to the Church’s coming to terms with Galileo’s discoveries concerning the nature of the solar system as an example of how science might inspire the Church to seek a new and “correct interpretation of the inspired word.”

When the pope came to the subject of the scientific merits of evolution, it soon became clear how much things had changed in the nearly since the Vatican last addressed the issue. John Paul said:

Today, almost half a century after publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.

Evolution, a doctrine that Pius XII only acknowledged as an unfortunate possibility, John Paul accepts forty-six years later “as an effectively proven fact.” (ROA, 82)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
Again- a film documentary is NOT a scientific peer-reviewed study. This view is very controversial and by no means universally accepted.

Skeptimistic, please provide peer-reviewed journal articles that support this assertion.

I'm not interested in "very controversial" among janitors, or sunday school teachers, but among scientists in the field.

Inasmuch as that is the standard of proof that you are requiring of others, please trot out yours.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
And thank you for finally admitting that there is no proof of the Earth being "completely covered" in an ocean. Semantics are important when you are trying to validate a scientifically based argument.

so, are you saying that the scientific evidence is that "the great flood" of Noah did not cover the earth?

Are you saying that just because it was described as a great flood, it doesn't mean that it covered 100% of the earth?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
John Long said:

As I recall, you were one who lacked the requisite sack and honesty to ever posit a true question to anyone. That's the picture of someone glutted on prid

well John, how about you having the sac to answer direct questions?

and forgive me if I have missed your answer, even after reading every one of our posts on the god and science thread, ok?

I have asked you on at least two occasions to state clearly your own theistic "beliefs"

I have asked you if you put yourself with those that believe in the God that most Christians do.

you have never answered me, although I remember one time you said something to the effect of
norton, it does not matter what I believe, etc

how about it John, will you come forth now and lay it out clearly where YOU stand?

I have, Klimmer has, everyone here has to my memory

and again John, forgive my lack of memory if I missed it, but just to humor me?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
"You're not being honest. All mankind had become corrupted, through DNA and complete wickedness. Only Noah and his family found favor in G-d's sight by that time.


Who are you to tell G-d what to do? He told you what happened. He told you what he would do. He told you why he was doing it. And then he did it.

So, somehow you can counsel G-d?

Boy, you'd better read the Book of Job."



Then you said ...

Really? After reading Job, I find no mention of DNA.

So you are saying that every 1-day old baby was corrupted, instead of innocent, as defined by almost everybody?

Why would that not have been a totally reasonable and logical and faithful reason to allow abortion at that time, in that population?

And how, based upon your biblical works, is that not true right now, today.
Why would that not be a logical and reasonable reason to allow abortion TODAY?


So, somehow you can counsel G-d?

Boy, you'd better read the Book of Job.


Trying to counsel G-d was in reference to the Book of Job. Job tried to councel G-d, it didn't work. G-d called Job out on that. That is what I was refering to.


Really? After reading Job, I find no mention of DNA.

So you are saying that every 1-day old baby was corrupted, instead of innocent, as defined by almost everybody?

Why would that not have been a totally reasonable and logical and faithful reason to allow abortion at that time, in that population?

And how, based upon your biblical works, is that not true right now, today.
Why would that not be a logical and reasonable reason to allow abortion TODAY?


And you won't in Job. That wasn't what I was referring to. The mention of DNA, mankind getting corrupted at a genetic level is in reference to Genesis and The Book of Enoch.

Mankind's DNA had become corrupted through the Fallen Angels having sex with Earthly beautiful women and having ungodly, never meant to be offspring called Nephilim. It was an abomination before G-d. Then Nephilim no doubt corrupted the DNA of man by mating with pure humans. At some point, all of mankind is corrupted with a few exceptions, Noah and his family. There could have been more like Methusaluh, but he died prior to the flood. Enoch was taken directly off the Earth by G-d, since he had such a close relationship with G-d, and that's how we get the Book of Enoch from his written experiences.

Today, mankind's DNA isn't corrupted as it had become in Noah's day. G-d wanted to eradicate all genetic and moral corruption from the Earth. He didn't want to kill 100% human beings who had morals and abide by natural morals that we are all born with.

Abortion today isn't about eradicating the DNA of Nephilim from mankind. Today abortion is about killing human life, life that has a soul, that can feel pain, that has a right to live. Babies today aren't hybrids, part Nephilim and part human that need to be exterminated. They're human beings.

Killing off the Nephilim is also why G-d brought the nation of Israel, the Army of G-d, into the promised land to whip out all remaining Nephilim who occupied the land. Recall David and Goliath? Goliath was Nephilim.

By the way, when Nephilim die they become demons. They are evil through and through.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
sullly points out that the liberal arts are a declining "market share" but I wonder how that looks in total numbers... this is because the change of interest of the students, who see college, more and more, as a financial investment from which they desire a "return on investment" so they pick what they think are marketable skills...

I don't think this is so much an issue with the academe, or with scientists, but with perspective employers...
...a long time ago, Debbie applied for a job as a contracts administrator at an import firm in NY. The owners and president of the firm interviewed her and she got the job. He was impressed that she majored in classical history at UCB and could read homeric greek, and latin... he figured she had what it would take to learn the job of a contracts admin. based on her abilities.

She succeeded outstandingly.

If employers were more interested an employee over the long run, then the ability to think critically would be a more sought after attribute demonstrated by many different majors, not necessarily those in the technical areas.

Unfortunately, the employers are looking for employees who can "hit the ground running" and may not last more than a few years before being laid off or moving on to another job...



cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Chill out Largo. Say something real about my own self, huh? Okay: I'm not impressed by the cliche insult about "taking meds." Jeez, that's all you got? And I'm really not that old, and I don't feel the slightest bitterness about any of this as charged. Actually I'm quite puzzled and somewhat amused that you would resort to such a low-level barrage of puny insults just because I held up a mirror to your behavior here. But I suppose "we can easily see" why you might.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
klimmer

you know (or should) that a 3D reconstruction from 2D data does not have a unique solution, and that, while your 3D reconstruction might suggest a missile launch (and even that is doubtful) that is far from conclusive evidence... and especially where there is no other corroborating evidence, none.

The explanation that is just another aircraft, and the actual existence of such an aircraft, would suggest a much more banal explanation then the breathless explanation of a missile launch.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:55pm PT

Mankind's DNA had become corrupted through the Fallen Angels having sex with Earthly beautiful women and having ungodly, never meant to be offspring called Nephilim. It was an abomination before G-d.


so the angels had sex with a human female....

over and over, I see clearly why your wife had a bellyful of you and wanted to end your marriage

was it worth it Klimmer, losing your wife and family cohesiveness, all to prove your "piety"?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
a propos the OP title (which was a troll if you actually take time to read the OP),

there is the mystery of why bad things happen to good people... it is hard to understand how a religion which claims that their God loves us all allows the sorts of horrible things to happen to innocents.

This is a mystery most often explained by the claim that we cannot understand that God's plan, and we should not presume to even try to question it.

This is not a new question, and there are many responses, however it remains a profound issue regarding faith.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
please provide peer-reviewed journal articles that support this assertion.

Here's a popular website to start with: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Global_flood
Now I admit it's not a "peer reviewed journal article" so I'll keep digging.

Here's another Wiki article which has numerous cited rebuttals examining the possibility of a global (100% land covering) flood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology

and here's an actual report from The National Center for Science Education: http://reports.ncse.com/index.php/rncse/article/view/44/36

Here's the 2008 article from The New Scientist: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126882.600-ancient-earth-was-a-barren-waterworld.html

so, are you saying that the scientific evidence is that "the great flood" of Noah did not cover the earth?

I'm pretty sure that there is no evidence of "the great flood of Noah", mainly because the only "scientists" that believe in the story of Noah are creationists...

Are you saying that just because it was described as a great flood, it doesn't mean that it covered 100% of the earth?


Yes. I never asserted that a "great flood" had to cover 100% of the Earth. Klimmer asserted that at the outset of today's shooting match. I asserted that there was no universally accepted scientific proof that the earth was 100% covered in water at any point since it's accretion.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
And thank you for finally admitting that there is no proof of the Earth being "completely covered" in an ocean. Semantics are important when you are trying to validate a scientifically based argument.

so, are you saying that the scientific evidence is that "the great flood" of Noah did not cover the earth?

Are you saying that just because it was described as a great flood, it doesn't mean that it covered 100% of the earth?


And thank you for finally admitting that there is no proof of the Earth being "completely covered" in an ocean. Semantics are important when you are trying to validate a scientifically based argument.

The evidence from the oldest Zircon crystals indicate that they formed in water. Could the science community be wrong about the 90% being covered. Could it have been more at 100%? We don't know. We don't have that evidence. Could have been but there is no evidence for that. They haven't found it.


In evolution we haven't found all missing links either. Doesn't stop the scientific community from assuming that it still happened that way. One specie evolved into another even though we haven't found all specie forms in the fossil record as they changed and adapted from one to the next.


Are you saying that just because it was described as a great flood, it doesn't mean that it covered 100% of the earth?

No the Bible is very clear, even giving a depth over the highest mountains.

The flood of Noah was a very quick and sudden event as geological events go as it is described in the Bible. The waters rose quickly and they fell quickly. How was this done? I don't know, but I believe the record of the Bible. We can't prove everything but there is a lot in the Bible that we do have evidence for..

Can areas on Earth today be flooded so quickly, yet there is no evidence overtime that they ever were, and the superficial evidence over time due weathering erases such evidence. It does happen.

Look how hard it is to determine that areas and regions on Mars were once covered with water, were flooded. Some sites have been easy to determine, and some sites have been hard to determine. It takes time and on-site analysis, sometimes at a microscopic geochemistry level to determine.
jstan

climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
Take the jump. Say something real about your own self.
Credit Largo

OK
I really really like to finish things.
John never seems to finish anything.

So....
I auto scroll.

Generally I would never say such a thing.

But you asked.............

Now on a more positive note

some thoughts from someone who has rubber on the road


Words of Wisdom From Warren Buffett

Says Warren Buffett: "You should invest in businesses so good that even a fool can run them, because someday a fool will." — Michael Prince/Forbes Collection/Corbis Outline

If you'd invested $1,000 in Berkshire Hathaway when Warren Buffett assumed control of the company in 1965, you would be a multimillionaire today, and you could be reading this in an oceanfront penthouse.

Buffett, 82, is the billionaire investor from Nebraska whose stock-picking savvy and Wall Street wisdom have earned him a reputation as the "Oracle of Omaha."

At charity auctions, people have paid more than $3 million just to have lunch with this former newspaper delivery boy, who boasts a net worth of about $55 billion and is now ranked as either the third or fourth wealthiest person in the world.

But you can get Buffett's best advice for free, right here.

On Success and Happiness

They say success is getting what you want, and happiness is wanting what you get. I always worry about people who say, "I'm going to do this for 10 years; I really don't like it very well. And then I'll do this ..." That's a little like saving up sex for your old age. Not a very good idea.

On How Much to Leave to the Kids

The perfect amount is enough money so they would feel they could do anything, but not so much that they could do nothing. Dynastic fortune turns me off. The idea that you hand over huge positions in society simply because someone came from the right womb, I just think it's almost un-American.

On How Much to Give to Charity

Ninety-nine percent of what I have will go back to society through philanthropy, because I've been treated extraordinarily well by society. I've worked in an economy that rewards someone who saves lives on a battlefield with a medal, rewards a great teacher with thank-you notes, but rewards those who can make money in securities with sums reaching into the billions. I agree with Andrew Carnegie: Huge fortunes that flow in large part from society should in large part be returned to society.

On Thinking Independently

You're neither right nor wrong because people agree with you. You're right because your facts and your reasoning are right.

On Investing

The first rule of investing is not to lose money. The second rule is not to forget the first rule.

On Picking Stocks for the Long Term

You should invest in businesses so good that even a fool can run them, because someday a fool will.

On Bonds

Bonds should come with a warning label. Most currency-based investments, such as money market funds and mortgages, are among the most dangerous of assets. Their beta [price volatility] may be zero, but their risk is huge. The dollar has fallen 86 percent in value since 1965, when I took over Berkshire Hathaway. It takes $7 today to buy what $1 did at that time. For taxpaying investors like you and me, over the past 47 years, the continuous rolling [over] of U.S. Treasury bills has produced … no real income after taxes and inflation.

On Investing in Gold

Gold is a huge favorite of investors who fear almost all other assets, especially paper money. But what motivates most gold purchasers is their belief that the ranks of the fearful will grow.

The world's gold stock is 170,000 metric tons. If all of the gold were melded together, it would form a 68-foot cube — and fit in a baseball infield. At $1,750 per ounce — gold's price as I write this [in 2012] — its value would be $9.6 trillion. Call this cube pile A. Now create pile B. For $9.6 trillion, we could buy all U.S. cropland (400 million acres producing $200 billion annually), plus 16 ExxonMobils (the world's most profitable company, earning more than $40 billion annually). And we'd still have $1 trillion left over. Can you imagine an investor selecting pile A over pile B? [Gold has since plunged more than 20 percent.]

On Investing in America

Investors need to avoid the negatives of buying fads, crummy companies and timing the market. ... [For most investors] buying an index fund over a long period of time makes the most sense. Just make sure you own a piece of American business.

Whether the currency a century from now is based on gold, shark teeth or a piece of paper, our country's businesses will continue to deliver goods and services. These commercial "cows" will live for centuries, and proceeds from the sale of their "milk" will compound for the cows' owners — just as they did during the 20th century when the Dow increased from 66 to 11,497 (and paid loads of dividends as well).

On Retiring

I will keep working until about five years after I die. I've given my board of directors a Ouija board so they can keep in touch. I also have a letter that will go out and tell what the plans of the company are. It starts out, "Yesterday I died." I just hope the stock doesn't go up too much that day.

Adapted from Tap Dancing to Work: Warren Buffett on Practically Everything, 1966-2012: A FORTUNE Magazine Book, edited by Carol J. Loomis


Another story I have heard. Buffett went to City College and there he was very impressed with what he learned from one of the professors. She did not care for many of the things that impress other people. Till the day she died she lived in a cold water walk up. When her will was read she left an estate worth $200,000,000.

Warren had been her advisor.

I suspect one of the things Warren learned from her is, that money is not important. What you do with it is the only thing that matters. So we understand why he is investing heavily in railroads. A bet that will pay off only after he is long dead.

Our country is going to need railroads.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
well John, how about you having the sac to answer direct questions?


The main problem here has to do with the annoying fact that our lives unfold, concurrently, on two tracks, or put differently, we have only one reality, like a coin, but it has two sides. The material and the experiential; the objective and the subjective; the discursive and the hypermundane; the temporal and the unborn or boundless. Not surprisingly, the discursive tries to collapse these sides into one thing, but heads will never be tails, nor are heads the "basis" or faoundation for tails, as the argument goes. But from the discursive, this maks perfect sense.

Most everyone asking questions here is doing so from the discursive mind. That is, the rational or evaluating mind. From the perspctive of the discursive, all of reality will look like material that the sense organs can evaluate, contrast and so forth. Anything else or anything other will quite naturally seem imagined or unreal from the discursive POV because it only deals with discret bits of material. There are other realms that have nothing at all to do with beliefs, imaginings, faith, fuzzy felings, mojo/juju/Nehru and so forth, but they are lost on the discursive, which has no language to frame these realms. Trying to probe such realms discursively is like trying to bail a rowboat with a butterfly net.

You have to go through a series of steps and training to vault past the discursive to where you encounter the other stuff directly. What people on this list want and demand is to have the hypermundane broken down in discursive language/terms. It can be done in approximate terms but for someone who knows nothing but discursive methods, it will sound like jibberish.

So you see, what I think you mean by "answering direct questions" it to comment on transcendent realms using mundane or discursive language and means, and this is the very realm that you must get past to ever see more than material, qualities, facts and figures. I'm not intentionally trying to be illusive or difficult or lack the sack to answer you, it's just that the experiential requires some work on your part to understand the concepts, just as science does, but every offer I made to go even one inch into this terrain never found traction, so I let it go.

The discursive has a kind of black hole hold on our awaraeness, and if it was easy to detach from the gravity of such a powerful brain function, we'd all know what was going on at depth. But just look at how difficult it is for you to sit quietly for as little as twenty minutes and intake the world without generating any meaning or attaching any words to the experience, just being present and drawing no immediate conclusions about what is going on moment to moment. You are likely to get nowhere with this, or else you'll start diving into a kind of vegitable brain numbing trance - which is the opposite of no-mind, which is clear as a dimond and sharp as a lance.

This is poorly explained as is, but I'm starting to understand how to approach the subject that might make a few things clear, though never to those insisting that "God" needs to show his face and sit down for an interview with CNN and explain what the hell is going on - lest he is simply imgained. You can't "think" otherwise. It is humanly impossible.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
Consider the following four things...
Which one does NOT belong?

.....

jstan, sage counsel from W Buffet.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
not that interested in silicon rockets...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:16pm PT

Worked with this girl on a project called One Night Stand. Silicone free.

Hows that for a straighforward answer . . .

JL
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 06:55pm PT

Mankind's DNA had become corrupted through the Fallen Angels having sex with Earthly beautiful women and having ungodly, never meant to be offspring called Nephilim. It was an abomination before G-d.


so the angels had sex with a human female....

over and over, I see clearly why your wife had a bellyful of you and wanted to end your marriage

was it worth it Klimmer, losing your wife and family cohesiveness, all to prove your "piety"?


Norton,


Yes, to understand these things requires that you believe the Bible and believe the Book of Enoch. Some people do and some people don't.

It's not about piety. I am what I am. I believe the word of G-d is true, and she doesn't believe that or understand that completely. She does believe some of it. It wasn't the only thing to bring 20 years of marriage to an end. She has her own issues.


Yeshua said the truth would divide people. We see it here on ST.


Matt. 10:20-40 (KJV)
[20] For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
[21] And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
[23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
[24] The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
[25] It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
[26] Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
[27] What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
[29] Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
[30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
[31] Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
[32] Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
[33] But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
[34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
[35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
[36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
[37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
[39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
[40] He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.



There is a cost for following Yeshua. People can leave you and you can lose family, friends, and loved ones. They just don't want to be with you anymore. They don't like feeling G-d's presence because they feel convicted. Truth is a hard road to follow. It's straight and its narrow ...



Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
That image posted by Largo above:

Lol. And now you know what made the Angels fall and want to have sex with beautiful Earthly women.

The thing that usually brings men of G-d down is SEX. But what a way to fall ...

SEX is a great thing in a committed marriage. Have lots and have plenty :-))


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Once again, John Long, you avoided answered my direct question

As you always do, you instead went on and on and on about the "discursive" versus.....

are you afraid of how your answer will be accepted here?

afraid that might be "attacked" if you come out and say yes, I am a Christian?

or not

but somehow, you will not answer such a simple question, yet you accuse another of not having
"sac"

fine, I think you are a coward for not stating clearly and simply where you stand on "god"

prove me wrong, I would like it if you would, but so far, yes, you are a coward
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Consider the following four things...

Which one does NOT belong?

Um, i counted 8 ... (things). and they all would "belong" just fine, imho! ;)

edit: but i must admit, Largo makes a pretty strong argument in favor of/regards to natural vs artificial, um, holds. lol
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 16, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
fine, I think you are a coward for not stating clearly and simply where you stand on "god"

prove me wrong, I would like it if you would, but so far, yes, you are a coward


Geeez, Norton, it's only like 7:45 and you'r already drunk.

If you were familiar with my running on and on about all of this for years, you'd know that I have said 1,000 times that concepts like "God" refer to things that are entirely ungraspable by our rational minds. That's where I stand on that. Nobody can frame God in any way that you are going to be able to say, "Oh. Now I get it." Whatever notion you have about God is, IMO, not the real McCoy.

You can rant up and down nd throw sh#t but it will bring you no closer to knowing anything about it.

And the fact is, you are not asking honest questions, which is a direct entreaty about information that you do not know and to which you have NO "corect" answer in your head. The answer you have in that sour mashed bean of yours is that I'm a close Christian but lack the sack to admit it. You're as easy to read as a soiled diaper.

What makes you small and mean is all of your rants here are excuses to rag on people begging them to "prove" things nobody can, so you can call them ignorant and pitiful. That, Norton, is not cowardly. That's a chickenshit by any definition.

JL
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
Largo has been exploring the deep subjective realm, what the experience of being is completely within the "1st person"

A much larger number of us have been exploring the deep objective realm...

In a reductio of some sort, these two realms exclude each other, while each remain "true"

Largo would have us all make the journey to that deep realm and "see" for ourselves... it is not something that can be described.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Ed wrote: Largo would have us all make the journey to that deep realm and "see" for ourselves... it is not something that can be described.

Talking about doesn't mean you been there. Going there does.

We all have our own predilection, don't we?

Talking/bullshitting seems to favor some over others.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
Largo^^^^^^^^^^^HEAR HEAR!! I DOUBLE THAT NOTION!!

Wish I could've said what I wanted, but god made my battery go dead.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
But just look at how difficult it is for you to sit quietly for as little as twenty minutes and intake the world without generating any meaning or attaching any words to the experience, just being present and drawing no immediate conclusions about what is going on moment to moment. You are likely to get nowhere with this, or else you'll start diving into a kind of vegitable brain numbing trance - which is the opposite of no-mind, which is clear as a dimond and sharp as a lance.

This is something I can understand clearly.

I've always had a hard time trying to get a feel let alone a clear understanding of what you are trying to say on this subject.

The big question i have is this.. what is this absolute fact.. the only one I'm sure of.. one descates identified in his way centuries ago.

I am. This "am"ing thing is remarkable it's the real core. What is it. HOW IS IT.

Dunno if that is what you are refering to Largo.. but it seems like it to me. If not well in anycase it's still my big question, the biggest mystery i can think of.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
And you won't in Job. That wasn't what I was referring to. The mention of DNA, mankind getting corrupted at a genetic level is in reference to Genesis and The Book of Enoch.

Mankind's DNA had become corrupted through the Fallen Angels having sex with Earthly beautiful women and having ungodly, never meant to be offspring called Nephilim. It was an abomination before G-d. Then Nephilim no doubt corrupted the DNA of man by mating with pure humans. At some point, all of mankind is corrupted with a few exceptions, Noah and his family. There could have been more like Methusaluh, but he died prior to the flood. Enoch was taken directly off the Earth by G-d, since he had such a close relationship with G-d, and that's how we get the Book of Enoch from his written experiences.

Today, mankind's DNA isn't corrupted as it had become in Noah's day. G-d wanted to eradicate all genetic and moral corruption from the Earth. He didn't want to kill 100% human beings who had morals and abide by natural morals that we are all born with.

Abortion today isn't about eradicating the DNA of Nephilim from mankind. Today abortion is about killing human life, life that has a soul, that can feel pain, that has a right to live. Babies today aren't hybrids, part Nephilim and part human that need to be exterminated. They're human beings.

Killing off the Nephilim is also why G-d brought the nation of Israel, the Army of G-d, into the promised land to whip out all remaining Nephilim who occupied the land. Recall David and Goliath? Goliath was Nephilim.

By the way, when Nephilim die they become demons. They are evil through and through.


Nice INTERPRETATION. However, Enoch does not say what you say it does, which is why you don't actually quote it, nor give citations to it. It does not contain the term DNA, or anything that might be reasonably interpreted as that.

By the way, Enoch is regarded as canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church, but no other Christian group. You can look that up.

so are you holding yourself out as a part of this Ethiopian sect, or do you disassociate yourself with all western and eastern Christian faiths on this issue? That would make you a part of a very very VERY small minority.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:32pm PT

there is the mystery of why bad things happen to good people... it is hard to understand how a religion which claims that their God loves us all allows the sorts of horrible things to happen to innocents.

This is isn't a mystery to believers. The key word you used there is "allows". Do you have understanding why Lucifer was banished from heaven? And why we as Gods children
are walking around on this planet coping with all this hate?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
That never seemed like a mystery to me.

The core of that question is why does god allow misery?

That seems a fair one.

The only christian answer I could ever come up with that made sense goes like this.

We are immortal. What happens here in life may seem like everything without that perspective.

But if you truly believe in some sort of heaven and that you are going there forever. You ought to at least intellectually be ok with anything bad that comes your way.

and for sure.. why the heck would an immortal god who KNOWS you forever worry to much about your short period of discomfort?

Just a seemingly proper "christian" perspective.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Ok, try this on for size ...

Do you want to know if there are Angels and demons for real? Need some validation? Need some physical proof? Jonas's visit to Italy and working with the team he worked with there remotely sensing his experience is very interesting. The images captured are what he saw mostly, one and the same. One image is pretty scary. I won't give it away.



I watched this documentary for the first time on Netflix the other night in the newly received category. So you can watch it if you have NetFlix.


Wake Up (2010): There's More to Life than Meets the Eye
Jonas Elrod (Actor), JZ Knight (Actor), Jonas Elrod (Director), Chloe Crespi (Director)

http://www.amazon.com/Wake-Up-Jonas-Elrod/dp/B003ZUTTDG/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G&coliid=I383HS2SEYHKXX



* I thought overall it was good. Gritty. Real. Slow at times, but its a tough subject to portrait what he is going through, and those around him. He has the gift to see Angels and demons, and the spiritual world. It happened all of a sudden after he lost his good friend due to a motorcycle accident. He is searching throughout the story that takes place over several years to try and figure out why him? What does it mean? And what is he supposed to do with it?

I do have to say I'm concerned for Jonas. He is a believer in Jesus? but it seems he is drifting away from G-d and being drawn to a New Age movement bent and understanding of G-d that all paths lead to G-d. That just isn't so. He needs to read this book ...


Demonology: Possession, Exorcism and the Kingdom of Darkness [Kindle Edition]
Dr. Carson Michael (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Demonology-Possession-Exorcism-Darkness-ebook/dp/B008A5ZTM6/ref=sr_1_2?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1376710292&sr=1-2&keywords=demonology


Dr. Michael is a PhD psychologist and expert in demonology. He is a longtime strong believer in Yeshua and the experiences in his long term practice that he has experienced will wig you out and wake you up. One of the best books I've ever read about all of this.

He explains it really well and gives you a complete background on the world of Satan and what he does and why, all from a G-dly Christian perspective and years of experience.

He talks about people with the gift to see the spirit world. Jonas needs to pay attention and redirect his gift for G-d and doing G-d's will. There is a purpose for why G-d gives the gift of seeing the spirit world to some people, and they need to use it to G-d's glory and purpose.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2013 - 11:59pm PT

It does not contain the term DNA, or anything that might be reasonably interpreted as that.

God does tell us about our "iniquities" , and that they will be passed down 3and4 generations
As like being an alcoholic, and the sin thereof will be passed down. Isn't that why today we've coined that alcoholism isn't an addiction, it's a disease. And we do know if you drink long enough it changes ur DNA. SCientific fact. But God told us this thousands of yrs ago.
Iniquities are sins that we are inherently born with from our parents and grandparents.
Today we know if the parents are acolholics, the children will most likely grow upto be alcoholics to. Scientificlly.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Nice INTERPRETATION. However, Enoch does not say what you say it does, which is why you don't actually quote it, nor give citations to it. It does not contain the term DNA, or anything that might be reasonably interpreted as that.

By the way, Enoch is regarded as canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church, but no other Christian group. You can look that up.

so are you holding yourself out as a part of this Ethiopian sect, or do you disassociate yourself with all western and eastern Christian faiths on this issue? That would make you a part of a very very VERY small minority.


Ken,


The Jewish Greek Septuagint Bible includes the Book of Enoch. Can't get more real than that. Also the Judaic Essenes sect read and studied and believed the Book of Enoch was G-d's word. The Book of Enoch was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The brother of Yeshua quotes directly from the Book of Enoch in the NT letter of Jude. Yes, Christians are slowly coming around to realize "Uh oh the Book of Enoch that we said wasn't canon, er ah probably is. Mybad?" ;-0

You want to get deep into this then I suggest you follow the Hebrew and Bible scholar by the name of PhD Michael Heiser. Deep, deep stuff. He also has many lectures available on YouTube.

Frontise piece from his book "The Facade," good read by the way:


http://www.michaelsheiser.com/

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:09am PT
You are GOOD Klimmer!!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:10am PT
No, "none is good but the father." --Yeshua


;-)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:12am PT
why does your God allow this Lucifer to exist?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:18am PT
Largo has been exploring the deep subjective realm, what the experience of being is completely within the "1st person"

A much larger number of us have been exploring the deep objective realm...

In a reductio of some sort, these two realms exclude each other, while each remain "true"

Largo would have us all make the journey to that deep realm and "see" for ourselves... it is not something that can be described.


This is pretty good, Ed. But I too have been plumbing the objective as well. Try writing those anchor books. And there are mountains of stuff (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html); that discursively delve into the 1st person but only after the exploration is underway, NOT during. Otherwise, you can't actually penetrate the unborn because discursive processing involves narrow focusing on some thing at the exclusion of the rest, and the whole damn thing is what you need to sink into, and that is where the discursive leaves off. In other words, to pass GO you must rack the focus to infinity and take it all in neat, with no attempts to frame any one thing. All quantifying involves isolating out and focusing on a thing, or at least wraingling a property or something with a boundary or numeric symbol that attgempts to objectify or parcil the person, place or thing into catagory. Once you lose the boundary and move past all catagories, discursive/quantifying is needless because it's not the point. You can't be open focused on infinity and something close at the same time. It's the old one and/or all, the many of the one.

Ultimately things and no-thing are exactly the same in the most fundamental way, meaning there is only one coin or one reality. It's just that you can't go everywhere with the same language, not in the present tense.

The hard thing to realize about this is that quantifying, the so-called material world, and even perception itself are sort of Hilbert Space metaphors, or provisional symbolic symbols or logical structures that allow us to work with whatever it is out there; but none of these tools are reporting a perfect reflection of a fixed reality "out there" because we are co-creating all that arises. That, for me, is not lucidly describable at this point in my process, and I've floundered every time I have tried. Only recently did I realize in meditation that perception was itself another Hilbert Space cloud rushing through "mind." But I can't yet put words to that one. It's too new, and is listed in the literature as the fourth immaterial Jhana, neither-perceiving-nor-not-perceiving. That's a brain f*#ker for sure.

So far as bullshitting about any of this, I'm not sure how to respond to that. I'm attampting to put words to my actual experience, and since I have never claimed to have experienced miracles or any such thing I'm not sure what I would be bullshitting about, per se. What's more, I certainly don't claim to have any exclusive on any of this. It's open to anyone who wants to start the work, and it's remarkable that once you go into it, the progression you take is reflected in texts that are sometimes 2,000 years old.

JL
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:20am PT
Talking about doesn't mean you been there. Going there does.
We all have our own predilection, don't we?
Talking/bullshitting seems to favor some over others.


perhaps, but then again, speaking for myself, I haven't had the "predilection" to practice what Largo has preached... so I cannot say whether or not he's bullshitting... my rather peripheral experiences with what he is talking about lead me to believe he's not. Based on those same experiences, I'd conjecture that I'd still not agree that there was a "there there," but I can't rightly say that without having done it. In this particular instance, it's all about the subjective.



Largo, I was referring to your long series of posts here an on various other threads, not about your objective work... which is excellent.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:24am PT
In my stupid brain I look for an easy scientific model.
God has allowed lucifer to exist because without an action there is no reaction.
The model of the universe. So whilest we are in these decaying bodies, how are we to understand Love without knowing hate. But when this is all over he will be put into the lake
of fire. Forever.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:29am PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
why does your God allow this Lucifer to exist?


That is a deep question. Why not just get rid of him after Lucifer fell?

I say read the Book of Job and you get a great insight into why G-d keeps Lucifer around. I think Lucifer is used by G-d now after the fall to test the children of G-d. All believers are tested. Just as Gold is worked to form a beautiful shape, we are tested through trials and tribulations to grow and mature and become more Christ like. We have to go through the furnace spiritually speaking or we will not mature and grow and become who G-d wants us to become.

Even Yeshua was tried by Lucifer his whole life long and not just for 40 days in the wilderness.

I also think G-d keeps Lucifer around to show all mankind how bad it can get and how bad it will get without G-d. He allows us to suffer in our own feces so to speak to teach us a hard lesson. Nothing like convincing us of what not to do and how bad it an get when we rebel and turn away from G-d.

He wants us to learn what rebellion can do and what it ultimately does to all creation. So the bottom line lesson is don't do it. Sin leads to separation from G-d, and without G-d, that is misery.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:29am PT
how are we to understand Love without knowing hate

it seems odd that the God you assert created us has done so by requiring that we suffer hate in order to know love... when that God could have, presumably, created us knowing love....

what kind of God is that?

Erdős got it right then "The SF created us to enjoy our suffering. The sooner we die, the sooner we defy His plans."




What kind of love is it that has no trust and no faith and has to be tested by the horrors visited on innocents?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:29am PT
Lucifer is concocted by the marketing department...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:38am PT
Aug 16, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
how are we to understand Love without knowing hate

it seems odd that the God you assert created us has done so by requiring that we suffer hate in order to know love... when that God could have, presumably, created us knowing love....

what kind of God is that?


Ed,


You can chose. You can have a perfect female robot who does everything you want, you designed her that way and you made her that way. Or you can have your real wife. Who would you chose?

(Careful how you answer. Significant others are known to peruse ST.)

;-)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:43am PT
is your God omniscient?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:44am PT
You know the answer already.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:56am PT
so your God gave us "free will" to choose and knows how we will choose, and then judges us for that choice...

...why put us through that?

"The SF created us to enjoy our suffering. The sooner we die, the sooner we defy His plans."
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:57am PT

what kind of God is that?

He's a Just God!

To live in a material world sometimes you gotta get punched in the face to understand comfort. Jus look at norton. Jus kiddin. Seriously, this life is a wake up call for gods children to find their way back home. To the family of love. If God gave us positive proof of His existance
there wouldn't be any room for free will. Jus meditate on how precious your gift of faith is.
Faith is like diamonds in ur pocket, you only hand it out when it is overly deserved. God knows this, and wants it from each one of us. It is a commodity that can't be bought or sold. Only freely given.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 01:06am PT
Only freely given.

but your God knows who will and who will not give that faith...
there may be free will, but the outcome is known.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 17, 2013 - 01:07am PT

...why put us through that?

Because He is Just. Because He is more Just than all the courts in the land.

A guy could steal a car, but if he gets caught he knows he's going to jail.
Or within his knowing he could jus walk.

Jus because God can see the future doesnt mean He uses His power to predict it.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 01:12am PT
how is that just?
to create beings with "free will" but knowing how they will choose and then holding them accountable for doing what you created them to do. rewarding the "righteous" with eternal peace, and the "fallen" with eternal damnation.

and knowing all the time just how it is going to play out...

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 17, 2013 - 01:32am PT

Only freely given.

After the sixth day of creation when God put everything into motion. He stepped back and put His hands behind His back. Pledging not to do anymore work until it was finished. And He sat down. This, I would imagine was the hardest thing He ever had to do? Maybe like when I put my 6 yro daughter on the school bus for the first time? I cried, and she came back wideyeed!
God made an agreement not to use His physical powers any longer through this time. And neither could lucifer. It was a "Just" agreement. That is why we have this spiritual warfare going on in the world today! We are either Gods hands working for Him. Or we are lucifers hands working against God.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 01:38am PT
your God knows how it all comes out in the end...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 17, 2013 - 01:38am PT
I think Christians might do more better defending their faith if they stuck to describing their personl experiences with the Holy Ghost, surly the most mysterious corner of the Trinity. Trying to logically defend illogical claims as historical fact is downright painful to watch and seems to cut relgion off at the knees by concentrating on (IME) the wrong issue. But I'm not too religious so I'm only guessing.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 17, 2013 - 01:51am PT
^^^^ Sure!
I'm deffinetly not here to speak for God. But I have been inquisitive of the same questions.
And I can only hope and pray that the Holy Spirit directs me. And educates me in my searching. For certain I don't want to get anything wrong..
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 02:15am PT
What about Anselm's Ontological Argument?

we've been over it previously...
you need to pick up a libretto...

A troll, but no wasp...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2013 - 04:42am PT
"After the sixth day of creation when God put everything into motion. He stepped back and put His hands behind His back. Pledging not to do anymore work until it was finished. And He sat down. This, I would imagine was the hardest thing He ever had to do? Maybe like when I put my 6 yro daughter on the school bus for the first time? I cried, and she came back wideyeed!"

I wonder what these creation days mean. I think it's silly to anthropomorphize God and make assumptions about his emotions, him sitting down (when the universe is billions of light years across)

After all, God didn't create the Sun (in Genesis) until the fourth day and the sun is what creates our 24 hour days, so the periods of creation are logically not days as we think of them. Why take something beyond the reach of people 3000 years ago and try to keep it so simplistic in today's terms? Wasnt it Galileo that got busted for thinking the Earth revolved around the Sun?

Truth doesn't depend on literal reading of word intended for prescientific people

Peace

Karl
Degaine

climber
Aug 17, 2013 - 04:49am PT
blueblocr wrote:
I'm deffinetly not here to speak for God.

And yet you consistently make statements of certitude as if you know exactly what she intended, and why those of us who don't believe exactly what you do are wrong (in your eyes).

Your constant arrogance is in total contradiction with the humility that Christian texts teach and preach.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Aug 17, 2013 - 05:00am PT
Blu Blocker why asign a sex to the deity?

is it to garner the support of those who have always disagreed with it being a male deity?

I agree with those who think that we have evovled. It is too much a burden to put on those with at the beginning to understand what they are seeing and relate it to us 2000 years later...

it is up to us to sift through the archeoligical facts and determine the most likely outcome...then test it and think about it more...until we come to some clear consensus...then test the consensus and reason it more...until our children's children's children help us to understand what we have hypothesized...and they will still be confused!!!

that is the way of life!!!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2013 - 05:08am PT
Arguing about the existence of God is one thing, and it has very little to do with arguing about the literal, or even figurative ideas presented in writings thousands of years old.

Even if those books (or one holy book) were divinely inspired (and from intense study I can tell you the Bible has changed over time, has contradictions, and was finally compiled by political and sectarian actors hundreds of years after Jesus) that wouldn't mean it contains accurate literal truth anymore than a book you wrote to read to your 3 year old would contain scientific fact they could bank on when they turned 21. What can you really explain to a 3 year old or a desert dwelling illiterate prescientific person of 2000 years ago?

The God of Moses who demanded the killing of every man, woman and child when the Israelites were conquering Palestine or fighting foes there doesn't seem to square with the God of Jesus asking us to Love our enemies, turn the other cheek and render unto Caesar. There is ample evidence that the Jewish God began as one of many gods and eventually just became the only one worshipped by the Jews, and later, the only god. The God of scripture doesn't necessarily have to align with any true reality in order for a God beyond our comprehension to exist.

For all we know, the friggen Earth is a zoo, seeded by aliens (angels?) as part of an experiment by non-gods of great technology. I wonder if the animals in our zoo had half human mental capabilities if they could figure out what aspects of their world humans created and what came from God/Nature?

We think details about creation are so important but I suspect our hearts are the real critical area of spiritual importance.

Peace

karl
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Aug 17, 2013 - 05:11am PT
Consensus, lol.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 17, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Ed wrote: perhaps, but then again, speaking for myself, I haven't had the "predilection" to practice what Largo has preached... so I cannot say whether or not he's bullshitting...


Ed..I'm not calling John a bullshitter...just that talking about something does not equate to knowing it.

Funny that so many religious types think they "know" God.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
Iniquities are sins that we are inherently born with from our parents and grandparents.

I see your dogma.

There is no such thing as an innocent child.

All men are sinners, so all children are sinners.

The logical basis for killing the children, even newborns, of any opponent.

I've often wondered how Christians justified that.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
The Jewish Greek Septuagint Bible includes the Book of Enoch. Can't get more real than that. Also the Judaic Essenes sect read and studied and believed the Book of Enoch was G-d's word. The Book of Enoch was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The brother of Yeshua quotes directly from the Book of Enoch in the NT letter of Jude. Yes, Christians are slowly coming around to realize "Uh oh the Book of Enoch that we said wasn't canon, er ah probably is. Mybad?" ;-0

You want to get deep into this then I suggest you follow the Hebrew and Bible scholar by the name of PhD Michael Heiser. Deep, deep stuff. He also has many lectures available on YouTube.


Sorry, Klimmer, but unless you have the title Archbishop in front of your name, you are in no position to say what is canonical and real to a particular sect of Judaism than is the average athiest.

As I said, you are a member of a vanishingly small radical faction that has no formal recognition. Those are the religious that form cults, kill people in the name of their god, drink Kool-Aide.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
What kind of love is it that has no trust and no faith and has to be tested by the horrors visited on innocents?

It is the perversion of the life and lessons of Jesus, by fanatics that will do, and allow, anything. Because they can do it in his name, and claim holiness as they cut the throat of the infant.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 17, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
A fun exercise here would be to assign (with a gun to their heads) all the basheres here to sit down with a heavyweight (non-historical) chapter of the Bible and write about the truth of it int terms of their own experience, per human nature and so forth. Like Ecclesiastes 1.18: For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

And we can't except glib dismissils like, "Well, sure, there is some nice poety in there, but . . . " No you have to dig into the material for real - not some cursory pass on it with your mind - extrude it through your gut, and say what comes to heart in as truthful and direct manner that you can.

I guarantee people would have other things to say, but that would cut the rants off and that's mainly what these threads serve. Our right and impulse to call the other guy daft and to be logical and "right," never learning sh#t. I'm as guilty as the next guy cause it's sorter fun. But I miss the meat and potatoes of the issue.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 17, 2013 - 02:59pm PT

Your constant arrogance is in total contradiction with the humility that Christian texts teach and preach.

By this do you mean because I point to the truths of the bible that contradict the lies of haters?
I'm work'in for Jesus. Who do you work for?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 17, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
A fun exercise here would be to assign (with a gun to their heads) all the basheres here to sit down with a heavyweight (non-historical) chapter of the Bible and write about the truth of it int terms of their own experience, per human nature and so forth. Like Ecclesiastes 1.18: For in much wisdom is much grief....

... say what comes to heart in as truthful and direct manner that you can.

Yeah, okay, just put the gun down, slowly.

In my very own experience, I see and have seen all kinds of bad in all kinds of people, and yes, it's a bummer. And I haven't always behaved as well as I should have either. So sad, so true. Regrettable. But conversely, in my experience, the whole point of "wisdom" has been the effort to exercise experience, knowledge, and good judgment. More wisdom should produce less grief, not more, and in my experience, this is exactly what it does. So it's not clear to me what this heavyweight is saying yet.

and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Hmmmmmmm. Sorry, but no, not for me, because me increasing my knowledge has never increased my sorrow. Quite the opposite.

So, for me, Mr. 1st-person talking about himself in 3rd person, this whole wisdom/grief/knowledge/sorrow thing smacks of a practical disinformation campaign. Keep your mind uneducated, just enjoy a simple life and obey the law, you say? Because everything is meaningless, you say? Uh, sorry, too late for that.

Now all has been heard; there is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.
For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

Uh-huh. Just so. Good effort, thanks anyway.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Aug 17, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
BES , man, the dood just can't come up with an avatar that he can hide behind. usually it is immediately apparent in the ef'n avatar name. or soon becomes obvious just who it is, lol! i mean, since i first started posting (probably before that) sum 6-7 years ago, he was posting as one of his various (at least 4-5 over the years) avatars. i might have responded a couple times, but usually he was either way over my head, or simply drifting off into deep territory (or i suspected he would soon get there).

props, bro. i can't say that you exactly 'keep it real' a majority of the time, but none the less, often your timing is perfect doing things to/tweakin' some peeps in a way (i suspect) that could only make their life (and often mine) a little more interesting (in the least).

EDIT: ^ never mind. i thought ya were talking about Besi'1 / specialtyclimber (or whatever he calls himself). either way, no harm meant. <(:-)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 17, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
Hmmmmmmm. Sorry, but no, not for me, because me increasing my knowledge has never increased my sorrow. Quite the opposite.


Don't give up on yourself, nor expect to immediately understand this fragment of wisdom. Stay with it and it will be clear in time.

The notion here, the theme, if you will, is not the obvious, surface fact that knowledge is power, and that technology and info can help limit problems, and sufering, in our lives. That bible quote is working a far deeper layer, at the layer of objective truth beyhond our propensity to agree or dissagree. It is basically addresinig, in the barest terms, what is.

What is, is that all things are impermanant. they rise, endure for a time and are gone. All forms, ideas, feelings, loves, are fleeting. There is no escape from this impermanance, that we humans all are one and done. This is the insight that the Buddha had resulting in the motto: All life ultimately entails suffering. We cannot escape this fate via knowledge or information or facts and figures, which merely qualify and cannot eliminate our impermanance. At depth, in the bottom of your being, often below awareness, rests a deep sorrow over the prolific losses in our lives.

This of course goes directly against the kind of Pollyanna skimboard voyage through life that you are guessing I am proposing. Rather than guess and be so wildly incorrect, simply ask a question and I'll try and give you a straighforward answer. As is you've bungled the bible quote, then doubled down with this bit about me suggesting you float through life in an unexamined way. Many science types have no idea what examining means beyond discursively attacking something.

JL
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Jesus said, "Love your enemies" so it's an attractive deal for the hater, to get love back.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 17, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
At depth, in the bottom of your being, often below awareness, rests a deep sorrow over the prolific losses in our lives.

Only insofar as we're older, and either (a) we've accumulated bad memories; or (b) our "motive generators" - now there's an entry in someone's "idiosyncratic vocabulary" ed, lol - have grown weary.

Would that be you? Few over 50 escape it. So don't beat yourself up over it. Don't fight it, either, it's ju8st not worth it, just go with the flow. Remember it's only natural to feel - to experience - the reduced output of the "motive generator" with age. It's Nature's way.

Obviously natural selection, as part of her balancing act across the ages, hasn't seen fit to keep our nervous system's "motive generator" red-lining across the age groups, only the first couple, maybe three till we're 30's somethings. Damn Her! But it is what it is. What is. ;)

.....

It's terrific how we can all come to truths regarding how the world works or how life works by different paths!

What is, is that all things are impermanant. they rise, endure for a time and are gone. All forms, ideas, feelings, loves, are fleeting. There is no escape from this impermanance, that we humans all are one and done. This is the insight...
...from the sciences.
...from personal life experience.
...from nature investigation.

.....

Don't give up on yourself, Largo. Stay the course. Keep searching. Spirit-building, like muscle-building, pays. Eventually. Stay with it and its benefits will be clear in time.

Remember Frank Zane. Remember Arnold. Remember Sergio. "Attitude is everything." You have it. Go for it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 17, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
Fruity, we've come to accept that you are wired differently than a normal human being, that likely you are mildly retarded per the qualities and passions we normally ascirbe to being human. Who else could maintain such a boorish and fundamentally ignortant belief that wisdom and data/information are selfsame. We no longer hold it against you, nor yet your conviction that an engineering model is the ritious path for mankind, and that once we have rid the planet of Abrahamic religious beliefs, enlightenment is ours.

You would not, I'm sorry to say, be a candidate for the exercise of looking for wisdom in the Bible or in any holy text. You are wired, we must finally admit, to understand no more than symboloically literal relationships, between, say, a diagram and an erector set. Invitations to access the Sermon on the Mount, for instance, would render a verdict proclaiming some barefooted rambler talking about birds and sh#t. Meaning, values, wisdom, insight, truth and vision would, perforce, be entirely lost on you. Trying to shine some little light into that brainpan of yours is akin to trying to teach a pig to speak "the English." Us in the know only get frustrated while the the porker gets restive and sassy - just as we've se over the years.

But stay the course. There is always the need for your ilk - to fix our toasters and such. Just don't go trying to graduate your own self to the higher issues of consciousness and social justice. You'll simply embarass yourself while thinking you are the shizzle. As they say, even a monkey thinks its handsome.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 17, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
yeah, yeah, everything i posted just when in one eye and down the drain. huh?

i bet you don't even know who Sergio is, :(

.....

Every age group in a tribe or community has its role to play. Every age group's "motive generator" is different. It's why we have a lot of 50 and 60 year olds around here philosophizing about the point and purpose of life instead of playing with Hot Wheels under the dining room table.
WBraun

climber
Aug 17, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
We don't need no stupid motive generator.

We've already built Frankenstein many times over and he's a total failure.

We're now living "life" not matter.

But we still need guys like you to keep fixing that fuked up Frankenstein.

That's your job corn syrup, oops I meant corn spirit.

Corn spirit is alcohol.

Are you drunk .......

?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 17, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Sez Sully: The unspoken rule is not to cross you two.

--

Surly you jest. Or you gots hookwinked by that nun, maybe. They go hard on those Sully Boyz playing pocket pool in class. Shame on you.

Anyhow, folks have been ripping on me here for ages. I'd have it no other way. Maybe you peer deeply ito lit ("for a living"), but not into this site, apparently.

JL
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 17, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
It seems BB needs to read more thoroughly… or at least attempt to comprehend without the need for a spook father figure in the sky, right? So I repost this one just for BB

Heard this the other night… Gave it some thought and found it to make perfect sense to me.



On the actions you claim to be so moral…

Are they moral just because the gods say so?
Or are they inherently moral and the gods are just instructing you that they are moral?

If it is that your morals are just made up pronouncements then that's not really morality. Just because a big powerful guy says so doesn't make it right.
If it is that your morals are inherently moral, and the god is merely instructing us, then morality is something that is outside the gods and dethrones them entirely. Humans already know what this thing that they have made up and labeled morality.
Jeff Dee
The Atheist Experience
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
hey sullly
love to be baited as one of the "beaker boys"
keep it up and don't pull your posts!
WBraun

climber
Aug 17, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
Mortal man is just plain stupid period.

The mortal atheist serves himself and thus remains stupid.

Theist serves the supreme intelligence (God) and thus rises out of his stupidity into intelligence.

This understanding has been peer reviewed by all the great ones and accepted all over the entire cosmic creation.

Only on stupid topo full of blind rubber stamped fools posing as knowledgeable it is not.

Just see ......

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 17, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
This understanding has been peer reviewed...
:)

.....

Hey Sullly, what's your sign?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 17, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
Thanks Drf I liked that one to!! ^^^

This was the question;
why does your God allow this Lucifer to exist?

How about enlightening me with ur scientific answer?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 17, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
A typical example of the speculation that goes on in the Christian Religion, don't know the answer to some absurd question:, just make something up that sounds good.


Craig, do you have any respect for anyone who doesn't have a slid rule and fifty pens in their pocket? Is the whole world ignorant and misinformed but you're little camp of "atheists." From one perspective, your brand of atheism could be defind as dismissing what you cannot or will not understand - i.e., that spiritual realities are not going to materialize for you to grasp and say, "OK, now I get it." It could be argued that your approach poses as true, while proscribing ye olde dancefloor to the very turf you already "know."

I think an adventurer like you can do better. The real question is willingness.

JL

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 17, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
This of course goes directly against the kind of Pollyanna skimboard voyage through life that you are guessing I am proposing.

No, not you, the author(s) of Ecclesiastes. I kinda found the whole book was basically proposing that everyone should, in fact, embrace the Pollyanna skimboard course and not make waves for their clinically depressed ruler(s).

Turns out that is one of the more common interpretations anyway, and one with which I instinctively tend to agree. "Life pretty much sucks because everything is impermanent and repetitive, so enjoy the good times as best you can and don't try to figure out anything for yourself, just stop being bad because God's payback is a bitch." An early attempt at social conditioning, presumably aimed at the buckwild populace of Jerusalem at some point way back when.

Again, not an original take on it by any means, but still the one I arrived at independently based on critical reading and my own predilections, which are clearly not the same as yours or the author(s).

But please, if you insist that there really is more to it than that, I'd like to hear about it.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Aug 17, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
nor evil spirit

Next he says there's evil.

Stupid scientist thinks evil is just electrical.

These morons should be thrown in jail for being this stupid.

These stupid morons poison the whole planet with their stupid junk science.

You jackasses made GMO's you stupid scientists and you're preaching this garbage too.

"In the spirit of adventure."

The next line these dumb ass moron scientists will say is there's no spirit.

JUST LIKE YOU SAID "THERE"S NO EVIL SPIRIT"

You should be given a lobotomy for this garbage.

Oh wait you are a natural born lobotomy .....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 17, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
Amazing that we (except for a few) are all too stupid to understand what is really stupid.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 18, 2013 - 12:13am PT
But please, if you insist that there really is more to it than that, I'd like to hear about it.


Actually, Cintune, you're a perfect candidate for spiritual practice because what you just wrote down is from a normal poit of view exactly what the Buddha saw - that all livfe is impermanent and sufferning at some level and so forth.

The next question is: What the hell do we do about it? That's where the practice comes in.

Craig also realizes the enormous down side of life but his only reference point is a Christian creator God, which in his mind is either all true or all bullsh#t. But when it comes time to do something about it, to go in some different direction, to do something different, he "could care less."

This is simply crying Uncle, a nihilistic quiting on yourself in the name of mistaken truth.

If your usual avenue of insight is firing blanks, look for some other point of view. It's that easy. But you have to have some litle faith that what you are imagining and what you have always thought is not the bottom line. But it's there for anyone to have at. Just sit down and dive. One breath at a time till the sh#t sloughs off you like landslides.

JL
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 18, 2013 - 01:02am PT
Egypt: Islamists hit Christian churches
HAMZA HENDAWI 3 hours ago
SocietyMohamed MorsiMuslim BrotherhoodEgyptHosni Mubarak
http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-islamists-hit-christian-churches-235144103.html





You know, sometimes it feels like the Muslim Brotherhood is right here on ST in this very thread ...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 18, 2013 - 01:16am PT
Also, no believer, Christian, Messianic Jew or Gentile here on ST is speaking for G-d. We are reading G-d's word and sharing it. Much of what I've said isn't my own, but others far smarter than me, who are Bible scholars and know Judaism and Hebrew intimately.

G-d has already spoken and had the great sense to have man write it down and put it in a book. We are very forgetful and at anytime we can pick it up and read what G-d says. And it doesn't even need batteries! And you can usually get a free copy from the motel or hotel room, thank you Gideons! It is the instruction manual for life here on Earth, yet its truth is eternal.

The OT, The Torah, the Tenakh, and the NT, the B'rit Hadasha, is one very complete Book available in nearly all languages the World over and in black and white. If you think you didn't get it the first time, then you can read it again and again.

Make sure you know the historical context, Judaism, and know Hebrew and Greek or have the ability to look up these original words for the truest meaning.

Or better yet, why not learn from a Messianic Rabbi, who comes from a long tradition (over 3000 years) of reading, studying, interpreting, and giving midrashes on G-d's word and what it all means, and how to put it into practice.

You don't have to re-invent the wheel.


Edit:


Love the King Crimson music post. Thanks. Yea Bill Bruford!
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Aug 18, 2013 - 03:23am PT
because organized religeon is FAKE!!!!


not because we don't believe in a higher power but because we DONT believe



ANY of the religeous texts....


and because the people who do are idiots...if you don't think so let them BELAY you!!!



BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2013 - 03:47am PT
^^^^^Did you jus wake up from a bad dream?

ANY of the religeous texts....

Do you not believe anything in the bible?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 18, 2013 - 03:50am PT
The existence of Lucifer is probably due to Christian misunderstanding of their own book, as the very limited writings in the Bible rarely mention it and using different words and concepts. There is little to suggest there is a singular evil force consciously leading us astray.

But make no mistake, if God created everything, God is responsible for all evil and suffering. How could it be otherwise? If God creates a idiots and gives them free will to do smart things, what will inevitably happen?

On the other hand, we misinterpret the purpose of this world, which is the evolution of our consciousness/soul, not our fun and enjoyment. We learn through the way our experience reflects life back at us. Even us climbers flourish in the lessons of suffering and adventure, like life magnified. We blame God because things are super intense, but that's the game on this planet, other places are probably more chill

Peace

Karl
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2013 - 04:15am PT

The existence of Lucifer is probably due to Christian misunderstanding of their own book, as the very limited writings in the Bible rarely mention it and using different words and concepts. There is little to suggest there is a singular evil force consciously leading us astray.

OH BROTHER misunderstandings? The whole bible is about the spiritual warfare going on between good and evil. It speaks off the evil addvisary using many names; Lucifer, Satan,
the Devil, prince of darkness.. Trolls
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 18, 2013 - 11:47am PT
"We blame God because things are super intense, but that's the game on this planet, other places are probably more chill"

I love this quote from Karl Baba... eternal optimist, he's my all around bonhomie
WBraun

climber
Aug 18, 2013 - 11:54am PT
How can an atheist blame God?

He denies the existence of God and then blames God.

You guys are totally whacked out .....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 18, 2013 - 11:56am PT
...you're totally quacked out, Werner!

speculation, yes... but probably not a stretch.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 18, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
speaking for G-d. We are reading G-d's word

Now I assume the reason you don't complete the word is out of fear of offending GOD. But is there any actual difference in spelling it than in thinking it? You must have the whole word in your mind's eye for you to selectively choose to delete a portion of it. Therefore, you have broken the very rule you are trying to preserve. Been hit by lightening lately?

And of course, you read the word GOD above (and just now) which allowed it to pass through your consciousness. Did that offend GOD? Is GOD such a vain and petty entity that one letter is all that separates its wrath from its praise?

That's what bugs me about Xtians- their blind acceptance and propagation of arbitrary rules dreamed up by some crazy power hungry people who said that GOD has spoken to them and through them.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 18, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
August must be a key migratory phase in which the Nehrus and the LabCoats go in search of new territories.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 18, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
"OH BROTHER misunderstandings? The whole bible is about the spiritual warfare going on between good and evil. It speaks off the evil addvisary using many names; Lucifer, Satan,
the Devil, prince of darkness.. "

Actually, that's not a true as you might like to believe. We make a lot of assumptions and lump things together where it's not justified

http://www.howardism.org/Philosophy/Religion/History_of_the_Devil.html

http://rpodle6.wordpress.com/2012/10/15/how-has-our-understanding-of-satan-evolved/

"...Today, much of what we believe about Satan does not come directly from clear explanations of the origin of Satan found in the Bible. Instead, it comes from tradition, both Christian and Jewish, inferences from a smattering of passages, and from a strange exegesis of some passages in the Hebrew Bible, namely: Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:12-19. The exegesis of these passages is strange because neither is referring to Satan, the Devil, or even anything supernatural. Both are specifically referring to human beings. Isaiah is addressing the king of Babylon and Ezekiel the king of Tyre...."

Peace

Karl
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 18, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
omg,

where are the contributions from the 20-somethings? around here?

Oh that's right, their interests (output of their "motive generators") are elsewhere...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwT6DZCQi9k
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Aug 18, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
"Why does everyone hate Christianity so much"?

Well, they don't. Rather, it is a vocal minority that seeks to do what they accuse Christians of doing-imposing their values on an unwilling population at large.

Certainly I can't claim to be a Christian since I haven't set foot in a church of any type in many decades, but I defend their right to live their lives by the code of Christian doctrine. The institution may well be guilty of atrocities in the past but not on the scale of 20th century atheist statists such as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc., who combined were responsible for extermination of well over a 100 million of their countrymen

Is it better to be a soulless automaton bereft of any compassion for the individual, hellbent on elimination of thought non conforming to "the collective good", or is it better to be accepting, respectful, and non judgmental of others who have contrary beliefs?

Through the years I have had many Christians in my employ and found them for the most part to be reliable, conscientious, and hard working. I can count on half the fingers of one hand those that have tried to impose upon me their beliefs.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 18, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Southern man better keep your head
Don't forget what your good book said
Southern change gonna come at last
Now your crosses are burning fast
Southern man

I saw cotton and I saw black
Tall white mansions and little shacks
Southern man when will you pay them back?
I heard screaming' and bullwhips cracking
How long? How long?

Lily Belle, your hair is golden brown
I've seen your black man coming' round
Swear by God I'm gonna cut him down!
I heard screaming' and bullwhips cracking
How long? How long?


Religion in public schools

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Maybe it makes zen-sense, but it's stoopeed... brainwashing...

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 18, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
interesting take of yours Rick

I mean attempting to equate Atheism with large scale mass murder, the only conclusion of course
would be because Atheists lack the "morality" of "believers"

as in Atheists don't have a Moral Compass, and are therefore more likely to kill

Too bad those pesky "facts' don't bear out your contention,

Take THE most famous murderer in history, Adolf Hitler, who was decidedly NOT an Atheist

In fact, Hitler was very much a man who's "moral" compass was framed by his belief in God


Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country.


As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922
And then of course there is George Bush, who stated that God told him to invade Iraq,
which resulted in the gruesome deaths of hundreds of thousands.

In short, there is NO "link" between belief or non belief in god and being a murderer.

nice try Rick but no banana
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Aug 18, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Their are no innocent's Norton. However, look at the sorecard-100 million compared to what? And this was their own countrymen, the very people they were entrusted to protect. So, no cigar right back at you dear sir.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
I'm work'in for Jesus.

Except that Jesus didn't appoint you as his spokesman. You don't speak with his voice.

Jim Jones said the same thing. Just saying so doesn't make it so.

And this is exactly why people hate christianity....not because of the philosophy, but because of the self-appointed followers, doing whatever then want in it's name.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 18, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Take THE most famous murderer in history, Adolf Hitler, who was decidedly NOT an Atheist

This is not true. I've gone over this argument many times on this site and elsewhere.

Adolf Hitler was raised by a sceptic father and a devout Catholic mother; he ceased to participate in the sacraments after childhood.[1] Contradictory accounts exist about Adolf Hitler's religious views, including his ties to Christianity and the Catholic church. According to Hitler's chief architect, Albert Speer, Hitler made harsh pronouncements against the church to his political associates, but remained a formal member of the Catholic church until his death, and even ordered his chief associates to remain members; while having "no real attachment to it."[2] Biographer John Toland, while noting that Hitler believed Pope Pius XII was "no friend", wrote also that he was still "a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite his detestation of its hierarchy" and drew links between Hitler's Catholic background and his antisemitism.[3] Conversely, historian Robert Soucy states Hitler believed Christian and Nazi beliefs were incompatible and intended to replace Christianity with a "racist form of warrior paganism".[4] Steigmann-Gall on the other hand, considered that Hitler had rejected the foundation of a new religion, calling it a "Chimera".[5] Additionally, biographer Alan Bullock wrote that, though raised Catholic, Hitler was a rationalist and materialist, who saw Christianity as a religion "fit for slaves", and against the natural law of selection and survival of the fittest.[6] Though Hitler had respect for the 'great position' of the Catholic church, Bullock wrote he became hostile to its teachings.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Furthermore:

Hitler's public and private statements on religion were often in conflict. The biographer Kershaw wrote that few people could really claim to "know" Hitler - "he was by temperament a very private, even secretive individual", unwilling to confide in others.[24] In private Hitler scorned Christianity to his friends, but when out campaigning for power in Germany, he publicly made statements in favour of the religion.[25] "The most persuasive explanation of these statements", wrote Laurence Rees, "is that Hitler, as a politician, simply recognised the practical reality of the world he inhabited... Had Hitler distanced himself or his movement too much from Christianity it is all but impossible to see how he could ever have been successful in a free election. Thus his relationship in public to Christianity - indeed his relationship to religion in general - was opportunistic. There is no evidence that Hitler himself, in his personal life, ever expressed any individual belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church".[26]
Many private statements attributed to him remain disputed.[27] In public, as in private, he was unequivocal in his disdain for Judaism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

The pro-religious, Christian sentiments expressed by Hitler in the above cited speeches cearly fit into the category:

Thus his relationship in public to Christianity - indeed his relationship to religion in general - was opportunistic.

Seriously, to think that Hitler's political machinations as regards religion, especially during his rise to power in the 1930s, was anything other than the sly scheming of a master politician, is a desperate and ill- informed attempt to link religious views to his monumental crimes.
Moreover, you have to ask yourself this question:
" would Hitler regard himself as a genuine follower of a Jewish Messiah-- come to save his soul?"
Yeah, I could just see Hitler as an adult acolyte,doe-eyed over the fresh prospect of gaining a 'moral compass' , getting on his knees before beddy-bye and praying to a Jewish Rabbi whose been dead 2000 years.

On the other hand, we do know unequivocally that the avowedly atheistic regimes of the great Socialist Totalitarian states ,like Stalinist Russia and Maoist China ,were tried and true believers in atheism. Whether or not those atheistic beliefs can be directly linked to their massive crimes is another matter.
Solzhenitsyn, who was a victim of that repression ,certainly thought so. Then again he was a devout Christian.

BTW the great Christian theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was jailed and then mudered on Hitler's personal orders ,for his heroic and brave anti-Nazi activities , had nothing but unrivaled scorn for the contention that Hitler believed in a God.


jstan

climber
Aug 18, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
Followers of a cult having a long dark history of murder and torture plus attempts today to return to old practices of limiting the rights of non-believers are coming to us saying "because I am so much holier than thou you must "believe" the same nonsense I believe. Or you will perish in fire ever after, inflicted by my loving god."

The only thing a rational person can conclude is that here we have need of a canvas T shirt with long sleeves and leather straps. Really. It is that bad.


JStan:
Fine and dandy . Just make sure your sentiments don't eventually take the form of the outlawing of religion, and the forced internment of millions of Christians ,and Jews, in the Gulag Archepelago , and the murder of countless others, in the grand liberating pursuit of statist materialism.

Ward,actually I had begun to think in terms of pouring molten lead down throats. Or even doing a little burning at the stake.

I would like, just once, to hear from a holy advocate the admission that neither their history nor their present behavior is holy. That admission might then make possible a discussion of how everyone needs to improve. It has been 2000 years....Waiting,,,,,Waiting....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 18, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
JStan:
Fine and dandy . Just make sure your sentiments don't eventually take the form of the outlawing of religion, and the forced internment of millions of Christians ,and Jews, in the Gulag Archepelago , and the murder of countless others, in the grand liberating pursuit of statist materialism.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Aug 18, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
J-stan's statement could well be applied to cults on either side of present divides. His "perish by fire" attribution though seems most applicable to a prominent, popular, current specific faction.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 18, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
Hey Marlow-San, what, exactly, is "Zen -Sense," and what experiences have you had or articles read that led you to belive there was such a thing? Not sayng there's not, but associating it to that wonky video leaves you with some extrapolatin' to do lest we might surmise you neither mean what you say or know what you mean.

JL

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 18, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
Largo

I could love the jazzen-sense above.

It's the following ambiguous zen-sense I thought of as stoopeed on a christianity thread:

"Theist serves the supreme intelligence (God) and thus rises out of his stupidity into intelligence.
This understanding has been peer reviewed by all the great ones and accepted all over the entire cosmic creation.
Only on stupid topo full of blind rubber stamped fools posing as knowledgeable it is not."

America is full of god-speakers who want intelligent design into science classes. That would be stoopeed brainwashing...

Yes, it's a WBraun quote. And yes, I could have asked WBraun which god, which server, but I was too lazy... As WBraun was to lazy to establish a difference between his god and the god of the stoopeed brainwashers... if there is a difference...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2013 - 05:35pm PT

"because I am so much holier than thou you must "believe" the same nonsense I believe.

I think this sentiment goes a long ways in most "clicks". Where the language is the barrier used to seperate the members from the non-. Take climbing for instance, if you don't know what belay-on means, how far can you go? For a Christian to share the bible it surely isn't to exclude, but to include. Maybe sometimes the messenger is speaking Greek and ur a Roman
and the message seems misconstrued. Jesus did teach that when you go into Rome speak Roman, and when you go to Greece speak Greek. We are supposed to adjust to the audience
Maybe that's why sometimes here on the Taco I'm speaking hamburger?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 18, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
Zen can not be explained...it is a personal journey, different to each person who takes it.


am·big·u·ous

Adjective

(of language) Open to more than one interpretation; having a double meaning.
Unclear or inexact because a choice between alternatives has not been made.

Synonyms
equivocal - vague - uncertain - doubtful - obscure


Also...I think it is somewhat strange that someone is trying to tell some else what a zen experience/journey is...it comes from your mind and is your experience and really has nothing to do with anyone. Deeply personal and most of all somewhat unexplainable.

Like Christians telling me who and what my god should be.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 18, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
[Largo]...what you just wrote down is from a normal point of view exactly what the Buddha saw - that all life is impermanent and suffering at some level and so forth.
The next question is: What the hell do we do about it?

How about just accept it, and do whatever one can to ameliorate it in one's immediate surroundings? Without recourse to supernatural agencies, mystic transport, or invented mythos of sin, guilt, grace, and redemption? Mike L's last posts on the abandoned GP&RvsS thread had me thinking that one EMT is worth more than all the diaphanous bodhisattvas that ever weren't.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 18, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
all the diaphanous bodhisattvas that ever weren't.
----


Geeeez, Cintune, I'd swear you were on a bender unless I knew better.
FYI, most so-called spiritual practices begin at a threshold called acceptance of what is, exactly as it is, right now. Then you go from there. As the old Gestalt folks used to say, A thing must be accepted just as it is before it can ever change.

Again, your idea (id I'm reading you correcly) that esoteric practices are methods of escape or wholesale denial per the hard truths of life runs totally counter to my experience. I grew up in the Rinzai tradition and the old Japanese master literally stuck my face in the worst of it. But that path is not for everyone, that's for sure.

And what the hell is "mystic transport?" Where do you come up with this stuff? Sounds sort of fun - but I have no idea what it is? Have you experienced mystic transport? And where did you go? And how?

JL
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Aug 18, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
Whyd oes everyone hate t*r* so much?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 19, 2013 - 02:34pm PT


Again, your idea (id I'm reading you correcly) that esoteric practices are methods of escape or wholesale denial per the hard truths of life runs totally counter to my experience.

I guess that's partly the problem with trying to pile them all onto the same plate. The authors of Ecclesiastes weren't Rinzai masters, Saint Augustine wasn't a Siberian shaman, etc... So if we want to sample the all-you-can-eat esoteric practices buffet, it's probably a good idea to keep a packet of spiritual Rolaids handy.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 19, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
But what about Mystic Transport? Comeon, dude, that's sounds like a riot. Like flying carpets and sh#t. I wanna play. Instead I have to get up at 6:50 every morning and get my ass over to the sanghai and sit.

I wants me some mystical transportation!

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 19, 2013 - 03:09pm PT

...perception was itself another Hilbert Space cloud rushing through "mind."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 19, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
So, Cintune, if you meet the Buddha on the road do you kill him or offer him a Rolaids?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 19, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
I would like, just once, to hear from a holy advocate the admission that neither their history nor their present behavior is holy. That admission might then make possible a discussion of how everyone needs to improve. It has been 2000 years....Waiting,,,,,Waiting....

I'm not sure who qualifies as a "holy advocate." I'm not even sure what you mean by "holy," jstan. The dictionary definition, viz. that set apart for religious use or dedicated to God, and/or perfect, sinless, differs slightly from the traditional Christian definition. The latter would only include that set apart for God.

In any case, would the Apostles John and Paul qualify? Both said that all have sinned except Jesus Himself. If sin satisfies your definition of unholy, it would appear that Christ's ambassadors in the First Century acknowledged that they, and all others, sin and fall short of God's glory. Perhaps your long wait comes about because of an incomplete search.

As for why people hate Christians, that's easier. We act corruptly, but pretend that we don't. We judge, when we were commanded not to judge. We act as if the church is for the righteous, when in fact, Jesus came exclusively for sinners. We belittle others in an effort to aggrandize ourselves. In short, we sin.

In addition, though, we promote Christ's claim to divinity and exclusivity. The world has been hostile to those claims for as long as He made them. Surely those who make those claims on His behalf now shouldn't expect to be well-received, when He who made those claims Himself was despised, rejected, tortured, and killed in the most ignominious way the ancients knew.

Members of the Christian church universal have been striving to improve, and discussing what needs to change, at least since the Reformation, but really all throughout church history. Listening to a pastor such as Alistair Begg, who is available online at www.truthforlife.org , would be an eye- and mind-opener not only for a lot of church critics, but for a lot of Christians, too.

If you want to discuss the imperfections of the Christian church and its members, I'm all ears (well, and mind and fingers for typing). Lets give it a go.

John
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 19, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
I wants me some mystical transportation!

Largo, did you ever get anywhere with the Kundalini?

Beware of coiled snakes. Uncoiling seems to take the bite out. ;^)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 19, 2013 - 03:29pm PT


I had the most vivid dream last night. I was at Largo's house. He wasn't there, but there were a bunch of climbers hanging out, who said he'd be home soon. Everywhere the walls were covered with fine art, and shelves loaded with books, maps, LPs and manuscripts. And in between, climbing holds. But they were all spinners. So, while waiting, I tried a few problems and invariably fell off, but no one seemed to mind. "It's more fun this way," they all said. And it was.

Carl Jung would have had a field day with that one, I'm sure.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Aug 19, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
bruddah's & sistah's...sow love, reap love.

"Let us not grow weary in doing good, for in good season we shall reap if we do not lose heart."

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
Ward,actually I had begun to think in terms of pouring molten lead down throats. Or even doing a little burning at the stake.

I would like, just once, to hear from a holy advocate the admission that neither their history nor their present behavior is holy. That admission might then make possible a discussion of how everyone needs to improve. It has been 2000 years....Waiting,,,,,Waiting....

Leaving aside, for the moment, the question whether a non-believer , outside of popular secular humanist perceptions , has the required experience to define and validate what is "holy" or not -- we are left with several implications in the above that begs some clarifying distinctions.

That there were vast swaths of western history dominated by the Church of Rome ,and later Protestants, and that these churches , led by autocratic Popes and Ministers, for the most part, committed hideous act of terror and retribution, is undisputed.
At this stage of historical recognition there is only one question that awaits anyone confronted with these facts: were these heinous acts a direct outgrowth of Christian religious beliefs or were they motivated by the same worldly aims as non-clerical personages who raped and pillaged concurrently?

Was it the real intent of Pope Innocent III to eliminate the apostasy of Catharism when he launched the Albigensian Crusades ,resulting in the Nazi-like extermination of men,women, and children? Or was he simply carrying out the machinations of the power estates and their moving of pawns on the chessboard of the European Middle Ages.? With the eventual intent of filling his , and the Churches, treasure chests?

Was it gospel--driven devotion on his and his henchmen's part, or was it just good ol' fashioned power hungry wicked venality that set the torch to his victims? The same sort that drove Stalin or Hitler to round up the faceless innocents of their own time?

I would be more than a little interested in reviewing any historical research you might have over this issue , explaining in detail the demonstrable link between genuine religious devotion and mass murder of the sort we've been discussing.
I might like to see someone draw a theological straight line connecting Mother Teresa and Pope Innocent III. Or for that matter, the Sufi mystic,Rumi, and the Ayatollah.

BTW I am not an apologist for the Christian faith, or any faith, being a devout agnostic.
My interests are purely objective truth-seeking.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 19, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
Regarding the significant numbers of young people who are turning away from Christianity:

“Not all the millenials who are leaving church are necessarily flocking to atheism. But if you ask young people, if you ask millenials what comes to mind when they think of Christianity, when they think of the church, they will tell you it’s anti-gay, anti-doubt, anti-woman, anti-science, anti-sex education,” Mehta said. “We all know what the church is against, and we really don’t care what the church is for when you have that much baggage.”
Hemant Mehta
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
they will tell you it’s anti-gay, anti-doubt, anti-woman, anti-science, anti-sex education,”

In other words ,the Millennials, doe-eyed with the deep wisdom of living, are merely regurgitating what the pop media and educational institutions have been telling them-- in that low ,sweet, caring,soft voice.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 19, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
Norton, good one.

Speaking truth to bullsh!t tradition, I like.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 19, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
Hey, that gigantic chart of hooey interventions listed one thing - Neurolinguistic Programming - which is a largely discredited psychological modality based ("modeled") on the work of Virginia Satir, Milton Erickson and Fritz Perls, all of who were MDs, I believe, who later went into psychology (modern psychitry is entirely a pharmocological/drug/narcotics practice)

Interestingly enough, the reason why most NLP didn't work is that people lacking the personal skill of Satir, Erickson and Perls coulnd't pull off the techniques, which obviously involve a huge, subjective component difficult if not impossible to codify into a series of protocols.

There is actually some pretty solid stuff behind NLP but I've never seen it work as advertised, or even close.

And Cintgune, don't worry about those spinners. It's all choss all the way but the company is divine.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 19, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
Here, a sampling of "facts and figures" and useful insights and prescriptions... based on expertise / experience... for... the better life...

(1) Life's Operating Manual, by Tom Shadyac
http://www.amazon.com/Lifes-Operating-Manual-Truth-Dialogues/dp/1401943098/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376948936&sr=8-1&keywords=life+operating+manual

(2) Life: A Complete Operating Manual, by Lauren Tratar

(3) The Baby Owner's Manual, Louis Borgenicht

Last but not least...

(4) Life Code, by Dr. Phil McGraw
http://www.amazon.com/Life-Code-Rules-Winning-World/dp/0985462736/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376949757&sr=8-1&keywords=life+code

All these point the way to umpteen millions of people thinking anew, moving and believing anew, beyond traditional forms regarding life guidance, life strategies, community support, "ultimate concerns", etc..


Compare to: How to Rock Climb. The parallelism is straight-forward.

The Baby Owner's Manual shows how the fullness of the problem can be broken down into "age group" categories. A common problem solving strategy, btw, to break a big problem down into manageable pieces. Eg: baby, teen, end-of-life, etc.

Life Code, by Phil McGraw, something of a hit. His "facts and figures," experience as a life strategist (cf rock climbing strategist), prescriptions for better living, for repairing a life, must be resonating, working, with more than a few out there. Almost 5 stars across thousand plus people.

Largo would do himself well to know when he's out of his purview, to humble himself before the data (the "facts and figures") and the expertise (e.g., Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, in the area of biology), to pick up a few such books, to find some quiet time to study them. But we know his wildly discursive mind won't yield here on this one. Don't we?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvQ2oKSLIGQ
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 19, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
I wondered where What is Mind had migrated to . . .


;>)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
In other words ,the Millennials, doe-eyed with the deep wisdom of living, are merely regurgitating what the pop media and educational institutions have been telling them-- in that low ,sweet, caring,soft voice.

Actually, that sounds like YOU are regurgitating. People see what they see, and they see who stands for what.

They also see lies and hypocrisy.....like you implicitly implying that those positions:

anti-gay, anti-doubt, anti-woman, anti-science, anti-sex education, anti-sex education


Are not the positions of Christianity. They are, and that is apparent to anyone who looks, not even at mainstream media, but the media produced by the christian hierarchy.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 19, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Silly Fruity doesn't think I'm up on his material. I live with my nose in a book you buffffoon.

Life's Operating Manual, by Tom Shadyac, liberally uses the word "God" to refer to Tom's understanding of life force, Life, The Creator, the Big Electron, and so forth.

Fruity, this material is, by Jove, a little racey for you me thinks.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
They also see lies and hypocrisy

No . That was my point , which you have clumsily stumbled over.

I was emphasizing that brainwashing is brainwashing and doesn't become something miraculously different and exalted merely because it conforms to your own opinions, however transient , tortured, and faddish.

If Millennials were primarily reacting to "lies and hypocrisy" they wouldn't have time to do much of anything else --now would they, like maybe pitching in to at least help pay their parents utility bills from time to time LOL ; or perhaps address their own slowly marinating hypocrisies- -the seeds of which have been placed there by the notorious professional brainwashers and political pimps who control most of the mainstream media and pop culture.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
So "millenials" are free to hate as long as they're objective about it, Ward ?

Who said anything about " hating"
Btw its Millennials with 2 N s

Millennials , being humans,are a-gonna hate whether or not they are objective or subjective.
It might help that in the early stages of the frothing at the mouth at perceived enemies that they might be a little "objective"
At least that way maybe they'll have a clearer sense of the universality of manipulation and propaganda.
Up till now they have been led along to think of the bad guys versus the good guys.
One day they will grow out of that , if they are lucky, and learn to embrace the world for the much more complicated place that it truly is.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
Facts are uncomfortable when they collide with a narrative. Like when an old narrative called the Bible declares it's a fact that homosexuals are going to Hell, if you just believe, you can live in a whale, furnace, Valley of death, etc.

That a very parochial view of the totality of Christianity. Almost charming if it were not becoming so commonplace and hackneyed .It is of course a convenient reductionism that has been conditioned by your own political and cultural leanings.
It suits people with a bug up their arse about religion that Christians ,broadly speaking, could be scandalized by demonization and mischaracterization of the theatrical sort that has become popular: the scheming evangelical bible banger type , and so forth. Or the hand-wringing old drone on the local rural school board who is intent on destroying modern western civilization by being opposed to the high fructose dude and Darwin's latest best seller .

I wonder if there are very devout religious types who do the same thing with connecting the dots, in their own minds, between secular humanists in general, and the social decay that they perceive in urban society for instance. In much the same way as Christians get tarred and feathered by association with evangelical types ,maybe hip ,metrosexual secular folks should start getting worried about being associated with high crime ,amoral social norms, and creeping totalitarianism. LOL

In the end it all boils down to whose "facts" and whose "narrative" and whose ox is being gored. Doesn't it?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 19, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
Regarding the significant numbers of young people who are turning away from Christianity:

^^^^This sounds made-up. For the Harvest Churches and Calvery Chapels have been celebrating the huge influx of teens and twenty something's over the past 6-7 yrs. Its very exciting! Kids are getting smarter with each generation. Large numbers of teens are taking oathes of abstinence from sex, drugs, drinking, smoking. They are starting to realize the
precedent their setting for the rest of the nation. When we teach our kids how important they are and how important everything is that they do. They become wise to the attributes of saving sex for the one you marry. And walking thru life with a clear mind and clean lungs inorder to hold up respect and integrity towards the body.

Quite opposite of what the world preaches.
jstan

climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 12:13am PT
Because it tried to keep us ignorant. Luckily they dared do no worse than subject Galileo to a house arrest. A deprivation of freedom that still continues 400 years later. At an earlier time they did much much worse to people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw7v6EzJDNM


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 20, 2013 - 02:42am PT
They also see lies and hypocrisy

No . That was my point , which you have clumsily stumbled over.

I was emphasizing that brainwashing is brainwashing and doesn't become something miraculously different and exalted merely because it conforms to your own opinions, however transient , tortured, and faddish.

If Millennials were primarily reacting to "lies and hypocrisy" they wouldn't have time to do much of anything else --now would they, like maybe pitching in to at least help pay their parents utility bills from time to time LOL ; or perhaps address their own slowly marinating hypocrisies- -the seeds of which have been placed there by the notorious professional brainwashers and political pimps who control most of the mainstream media and pop culture.

You must think that people are not paying attention. You have been called out at least three times on the anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-science, anti-education, etc agenda.......with you saying that anyone who believes it is brainwashed......

BUT YOU DONT REFUTE IT. That is quite noticeable.

So what you call propaganda, which is noted by very independent-minded observers as being fact, you don't refute.

Which means that those youngsters are a lot smarter than you.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 20, 2013 - 02:46am PT
I LOVE the Harvest Church!

Our ultimate purpose is to glorify God and to expand His kingdom throughout the earth.

Translation: a propaganda mill.

I don't see anything about serving the poor.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 03:17am PT
Which means that those youngsters are a lot smarter than you.

You mean the youngsters you and your ilk are trying to politically pimp?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 20, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
I live with my nose in a book

Good. Speaking of which, I just finished this one:

Evil,
by Roy Baumeister

In this day and age, it's fun to read/study someone and then research him on the internet. So I found this:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYZM9N1Za_k

What a breath of fresh air it is nowadays to have an opportunity to consider such "timeless" subjects as evil, aggression, violence, gender differences, cultural differences, meaning and purpose, human needs and wants, cooperation, competitivity, grouping, etc. from an evolutionary ecological historic or evolutionary psychological historic perspective.

"So if we were made out of only females, we wouldn't have culture?"

"Yes, probably, or not nearly as much." (Baumeister)

Big changes underway. So unpredictable. At once adventurous and fearful. I wish I could wake up tomorrow a teenager again - my chances of reaching the 22nd century (to see its cultural evolutionary developments) would be much improved.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Do you want a better life?

Do you want to be a better person to all people around you?

Do you want things to go well in your life?

There is a cost but its worth it ...


G-d promises blessings for those who keep his commandments and curses to those who don't keep his commandments:
http://www.seekgod.org/bible/obedienceblessings.html


(Deuteronomy 11:26-28 NIV)
"See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse-- {27} the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; {28} the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known."

(Deuteronomy 12:28 NIV)
"Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the LORD your God."


In words of Yeshua HaMashiach, Emmanuel, G-d with us ...
(John 15:7-14 NIV)
"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. {8} This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. {9} "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. {10} If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. {11} I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. {12} My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. {13} Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. {14} You are my friends if you do what I command."



Doesn't matter who you are or what you believe, the above is certain and true.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 20, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
No, it isn't.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Just as there are natural laws that govern all creation that HaShem put into motion, there are spiritual laws also. The consequences of which you can't get away from.




Yeshua while he was on Earth said ...

Matthew 24:35
King James Version (KJV)
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 20, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
Yes, it will.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Cintune,


Are you directly testing G-d? Are you directly challenging HaShem?

I wouldn't do that if I were you.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 20, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
Klimmer, in positing "God" as a thing, as an entity, and ascribing to Him Thor-like wrath and power, you have served up not a deity or a divine personage, but IMO, a cartoon on par with Bluto, enforcing a series of rules and regulations, very much a dynamic based on an aggro Father - Prodigal Son kind of fandango. I contend that if all of that was true, and none of that was true, that you would experience yourself and the world is exactly the same way, that these beliefs have NO effect on your spiritual wherewithall whatsoever. I think what you're grappling with are in fact psychological issues having nothing to do with spirituality. At all.

And of course I could be totally wrong as well. I don't "know" anything about any of this - not for sure.

JL
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 20, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
What I do know is that Christianity wants something from you...your soul, your life, the way you live, who you can and can't marry.

To them and Klimmer god, I give my middle finger with great pleasure.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 20, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
not for sure

Such a cop out.

There's a world of difference between (a) reasonably certain and (b) absolutely certain.

Areas of application: (1) Aphrodite emerging from sea foam off an island in the Mediterranean Sea; (2) God Jesus being born of a human virgin girl, shagged by God Jehovah (aka Yahweh); (3) global warming by human causes; (4) extinction of the dinosaurs by a killer asteroid.

These matters - they are intellectual matters - are as much about attitude and courage as facts.

Sac up.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 20, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
I don't "know" anything about any of this

On the other hand, maybe you don't.

Only you know how much physics, chem and biology you've had over the years. Only you know how much time you've taken away from the rocks and away from "meditation" and Zen and "theology" to invest in history (world history, the history of cultures), animal ecologies, even engineering and problem solving related fields.

Only you know how deeply you internalized these many and various subjects that all, each in their own way, point to a modern worldview distinctly different from the bible one.

The modern worldview variously described as "The Scientific Story" or "The Evolutionary Epic" or "The Universe Story" needs to be expressed. It needs a hearing. In the 21st century. Notwithstanding the naysayers, deniers, idiots, illiterates. To see in what ways it can contribute, it can make a difference, a positive one, to the human condition. That is what I know. That is my interest.

Keep the charge, damn the torpedoes and cochblockers.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 20, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
Fruity, there is, as Ed pointed out some time back, only one reality (one coin) with two sides (heads and tails) - two distince realms, a dichotomy seen throughout nature (day and night, light and darkiness, male and female, positive and negative, etc.) and represented by many timeless symbols like the yin - yang, the scales of justice, and so forth.

We also see the same dynamic played out in the objective and subjective, the experiential and the material, the physical and the spiritual.

While we unqustionably live our lives in our own subjective bubble, emersed in the experience with a direct visceral feedback loop within our own skin boundary, there is the so-called objective world "out there" beyond our skin which bequeths us the perspective of me and you, or us and them, or the one and the many. Ultimately, this is an ilusion, but for getting alolng in the world it us essential. Your stuff is not mine, and so forth.

When we try and colapse the two realms into one, insisting, for instance, that the subjective is in fact the objective, we end up with all kinds of wonky stuff like trying to "prove" subjectivity, while proofs and "knowing" lie soley with the material/physical realm. What's more, just because we "know" (quantified knowing, that is) things in the physical does not mean we can simply apply them to the experiential.

My sense of you, Fruity, is that you draw mostly from the physical, and armed with what you "know," seek to the transform the subject/experiential/cultural realm we actually live in as somewhat conscious human beings.
The fact that you need to draw equally from the subjective/experiential realm to have a balanced plan of attack is a fact that seems entirely lost on you, Fruitcake, believeing as you do that the only experiential realm that exists is either Abrahamic Bibilcal POVs or some version of same, freighted with the same superstitions and beliefs and so forth. This, I trust, is where your wires are truly crossed, and where you believe they are in fact delivering you a clear signal. But on the experiential side of the coin, I can assure you Fruity that your info stream is full of white noise every bit as beholden to old school spooks and blaney as a fundmentalist.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 20, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
Well, you know you'd get more cred around here for your dualism - and perhaps more serious replies, too - were you to admit (confess) the Abrahamic narrative, in all its supernatural theistic elements, is myth. You have just such an opportunity with every go-b or Klimmer post. But strangely you won't do that. Which of course leads many at this crag to wonder if you're in fact not a closet fundamentalist Christian yourself. And the rest all distraction or interference, more or less, to that end.

.....

believeing as you do that the only experiential realm that exists is either Abrahamic Bibilcal POVs

Eyes but he doesn't see. Brain but doesn't think.

Am I the one bringing up the Abrahamic narrative time and again? Yet this is what you charge, repetitively. So vain, vacuuous. And apart from the subjective being entirely lost on me, really is there nothing else. Boring.

Really, whose wires are crossed here. ;)
WBraun

climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Fruitcake says to largo -- "Well, you know you'd get more cred around here .."

Fruitcake demands people to submit to his goofball ideas to get cred.

All while fruitcake is coward and hides behind anonymous avatar throwing so called credible stuff at people.

Nope in order to be credible you have to stand behind your sh!t dude.

You hide and are coward , so your credibility is zero.

You have no credibility at all.

ZERO and Hypocrite .......
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 20, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Pagans have more fun...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Aug 20, 2013 - 11:31am PT
Klimmer, in positing "God" as a thing, as an entity, and ascribing to Him Thor-like wrath and power, you have served up not a deity or a divine personage, but IMO, a cartoon on par with Bluto, enforcing a series of rules and regulations, very much a dynamic based on an aggro Father - Prodigal Son kind of fandango. I contend that if all of that was true, and none of that was true, that you would experience yourself and the world is exactly the same way, that these beliefs have NO effect on your spiritual wherewithall whatsoever. I think what you're grappling with are in fact psychological issues having nothing to do with spirituality. At all.

And of course I could be totally wrong as well. I don't "know" anything about any of this - not for sure.

JL


JL,

That is an honest answer. I appreciate that.

(And its a heck of a lot better than getting the digital finger. Lol)




I know many here at ST are at odds to all of this, and lack a great deal faith in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, HaShem Adonai Elohim. I know that many want “prove it to me, and I’ll believe” just as Doubting Thomas wanted from Yeshua HaMashiach and then felt the scars in his hands. Yeshua was happy to give him that physical proof and then blessed those who don’t have access to the evidence but still believe. But good news, HaShem, Yeshua does offer up validation to what he says is true, time and time again, and that the signs of the times are nye upon us …


Things are happening spiritually on a large global level. G-d is moving in a very big way:

1) The Nation of Israel was re-established on this side of Diaspora in May, 1948. Yeshua said “When you see the Fig-Tree blossom, know that the end is near.” (Matt.24:32-34) The Fig-tree blossoming is the re-establishment and re-birth of the Nation of Israel on this side of Diaspora. He also said this generation would not pass away until all these things be fulfilled. G-d set a length of time for a man’s life to be no longer than 120 years. So let’s say a child born in 1948 lives to be 120 years, then on the outset, the farthest year out, that would be about 2068 AD or CE. Wow, Newton’s prediction of 2060 AD is pretty darn close! Now I’m not date-setting. It could be sooner, it could be later. Yeshua said no man knows the day or hour, but he didn't say we couldn't know the season. In fact he told us to watch and look for it!

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pages/the_fig_tree_prophecy.htm

Jewish Believers in Yeshua in Israel:
http://player.vimeo.com/video/32364601


Joel Rosenberg On The End Times - Pt. 1 from Now The End Begins on Vimeo.
NTEB: Glenn Beck, Joel Rosenberg & the End Times. Pt 1.
http://player.vimeo.com/video/32364807?byline=0&badge=0






2) Muslims are having visions of Yeshua HaMashiach and coming to know the True G-d of their great, great, … etc. Grandfather Abraham, who is HaShem Adonai Elohim, and this is happening the World over:

Thursday, July 05, 2012
Yeshua Reaches Out to Muslims Through Dreams & Visions
http://brostef.typepad.com/blog/2012/07/yeshua-reaches-out-to-muslims-through-dreams.html


Acts 2:17
“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.”

The Messianic Jews here in the NT are quoting scripture from the OT!



3) Christendom is re-awakening and coming back to their Jewish Roots of the faith as it was when Yeshua established Messianic Judaism in Jerusalem. It’s not a new faith. It’s Judaism with the Messiah. I think Judaism as a whole is beginning to wake-up. Christendom took a bad major detour for a few thousands years. They know Messiah, but there is so much more to our faith that only the Jews and Judaism can only teach us.The Gentiles, are the wild branch that has been grafted into the same promises. It’s for everyone. Christians need the roots of the Judaic faith, and the Jews need Messiah. I think HaShem is really beginning to take the spiritual veil off the Nation of Israel, and many Jews are beginning to see that Yeshua is HaMashiach. The prophecy of “The first shall be last, and the last shall be first,” is becoming very real and true in our day. The word of G-d prophecied this would happen and that his spirit would be poured out onto the Earth and nations near the end of this dispensation of time. It’s happening.


The Jewish community world-wide is noticing:

June 12, 2012
Messianic Jewish groups claim rapid growth
Groups professing to be Jewish believers in Jesus increasingly accepted in Israel
http://www.jewishjournal.com/religion/article/messianic_jewish_groups_claim_rapid_growth_20120612



Matt. 20:16 (KJV)
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.


THE GATHERING OF NATIONAL ISRAEL
http://www.bible-prophecy.net/prophecybook2/b2w18.html

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel): For this is my covenant to them (Israel), when I shall take away their sins" (Rom.11:26-27 KJV). See also Isa.30:15.

Micah 4:2 (KJV)
And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


Zechariah 8:23 (KJV)
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew , saying , We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.



4) There will be signs in the sky …

The Jewish year of 5774CE (as measured from the creation of Adam, not the physical Earth which is billions of years old) on the Jewish calendar (2014-2015 on the Gregorian calendar) will be a very interesting year. I think HaShem is telling us to wake-up from our spiritual slumber and pay attention. Get right with G-d. The time is now. It isn't the end, but the time is getting short:


May 28, 2012: Pastor Mark Biltz: Signs in the Heavens
(Pastor Mark Blitz isn’t Jewish, but he is a man of G-d who has a true heart for the Jews and the Nation of Israel. In other words, he’s a believer with a Jewish heart. Baruch HaShem.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71CGGfBj5I0

[Click to View YouTube Video]

jstan

climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQw9sNmNEeA

In the above Hitchens makes a well considered argument comparing Socrates and Jesus. As to whether either or both ever actually existed in the flesh. To begin with he thinks the question of whether Socrates lived is unimportant. If Socrates had not advanced his use of data or the procedures we now attribute to him - someone else would have.

He is persuaded some itinerant preacher we now call Jesus actually did exist. Simply because the story is so clearly fraudulent. If one is generating something from whole cloth there is no need for a Roman census (that never took place) in order to cause a Nazarene to make a trek to Bethlehem so as to be associated with the House of David. There had to have been a Nazarene with a history at the time that somehow had to be grafted onto the House of David - for someone to get the story they needed.

If some later political situation made this itinerant preacher's history of use to someone, is it unexpected someone might brush over the bad bits so as to get something they wanted?

This interpretation resonates with a character in a great old movie, "Cold Comfort Farm." I get the erie feeling the script writer had also reached Hitchen's conclusion. In any event it's a very positive movie.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 20, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
Do you want a better life?

Do you want to be a better person to all people around you?

Do you want things to go well in your life?

There is a cost but its worth it ...

Yes sir, step right up and get yer Uncle Percy's Tonic, cures baldness, gout, ingrown toenails and syphillis. Snake is snake oil.

Does it bother anyone else that clinically insane nutters like Klimmer are allowed to teach children?

And Largo...maybe stick that nose in some Hemmingway for a while and drop all the cutesy and useless flourishes. It's a conversation, not a tall-tale spinning contest.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Jstan,

That's laughable.

There is so much physical evidence that Yeshua existed.

Even the Jews, The Nation of Israel, know that he did. They can't denie that Yeshua was a Son of Israel and suffered a brutal, cruel Roman death of Crucifixion. He is talked about quit a bit in the Jewish Talmud, as well as his followers. Also the historian Josephus talks about him, and John the Baptist etc. etc.

Look upstream at the physical evidence of the Messianic Seal found in many historical archaeological ruins throughout Israel.









cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 20, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
KLimmer:
Cintune,
Are you directly testing G-d? Are you directly challenging HaShem?
I wouldn't do that if I were you.

Yeah, I'm shakin' and tremblin'.

Hey, ever listen to Porcupine Tree? Pretty solid heirs to the prog genre, imo.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Aug 20, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
whats up with all the hate peeps...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
attack at end cuts song short (cool sax, btw)...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
..."Get a little God in your heart, and let a little love come out of your soul." Lester Chambers (Chambers Brothers)

Dudes a living legend and a gentle soul folks, how about a lil' respect...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Byran

climber
Yosemite
Aug 20, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
Fruity, there is, as Ed pointed out some time back, only one reality (one coin) with two sides (heads and tails) - two distince realms, a dichotomy seen throughout nature (day and night, light and darkiness, male and female, positive and negative, etc.) and represented by many timeless symbols like the yin - yang, the scales of justice, and so forth.

Ehh... many of those dichotomies are shaky at best.

Day/night is a human invention, a coincidence of our existence on this spinning globe. Organisms living on heat vents at the bottom of the ocean don't care about day and night. Nor would you if you were on a space shuttle sent out of the solar system, occasionally drifting through the shadows cast by large objects.

Light (electromagnetic radiation) is just one type of particle, with many other particles in existence. "Darkness" could either be described as an absence of light with a certain wavelength perceivable to the human eye, or it could be interpreted as the absence of all light. One is another human construct, and the other is as far as we know an impossibility since our entire universe is bathed in the background radiation of the big bang. Either way it doesn't make for a good dichotomy.

Male/female of course excludes the vast majority of biological organisms which self-replicate through cellular division. And positive/negative ignores "neutral" (whether it be an electrical charge, pH balance, or movie review)

But yes, humans have an innate desire to categorize things into dichotomies: good/evil, heaven/hell, black/white, republican/democrat, norcal/socal, sport/trad. Some of them hold up to the reality of our natural universe, but most of them don't.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Aug 20, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
KLimmer:

Cintune,

Are you directly testing G-d? Are you directly challenging HaShem?
I wouldn't do that if I were you.

Cintune:
Yeah, I'm shakin' and tremblin'.

Hey, ever listen to Porcupine Tree? Pretty solid heirs to the prog genre, imo.



"Even G-d couldn't sink the Titanic"


Famous last words ...



And what does Porcupine Tree have to do with this? (Yes, I like some of their songs a lot, great prog.)
Byran

climber
Yosemite
Aug 20, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
"Even G-d couldn't sink the Titanic"


Famous last words ...

Are you suggesting God sent 1500 of his beloved children to a watery grave, just because one dumbass boasted about the awesome ship he engineered?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 20, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Fruity, you need to read more carefully. Dualism as you and other physicalists describe it, is really lop sided reductionism believing mind can be reduced to matter. This is a kind of physical fundamentalism that conveniently forgets that all so-caloled matter, for example, features a wave-particle duality, and that no credible scientist would call a particle a wave or vica versa, nor yet say that matter "creates" waves.

But more importantly, the reason I only poke fun at your hard-on for Abrahamic religion is that the bone head level at which you are arguing is not worth my while. People believing seas were actually parted and 1,000 loaves were literally pulled from one basket are stuck in a perspective and you're not going to convince them otherwise because the issue is not informational, but emotional.

All of these kinds of subeleties are glossed over in your usual slipshoid presentation, whcih facors all or nothing thinking and black and white dichotomies, hardly the stuff of a forward thinker. What's more, many if not the majority of these views are staunchly republican, issuing from aging, conservative, white, straight, protestant, well-monied, well sanctioned, old school, peckerwood stock. The fact that the parade has marched past this old gurad is lost only on them.

Ande Bryan: He seez: Light (electromagnetic radiation) is just one type of particle, with many other particles in existence. "Darkness" could either be described as an absence of light with a certain wavelength perceivable to the human eye, or it could be interpreted as the absence of all light. One is another human construct, and the other is as far as we know an impossibility since our entire universe is bathed in the background radiation of the big bang. Either way it doesn't make for a good dichotomy.

You've talked your own self into a corner. Again, something that is common to certain types, you think in absolute, black and white terms rather than aappreciating the subtleties. As mentioned, there is only one reality. Dichotiomies occuring on this one reality would perforce represent a spectrum, ranging from light to darkness, for instance. You could argue that all physical reality is a human invention of mind, bur for the purposes of our conversation, wer are simply looking at opposite ends of the spectrum to get a feel for the hole, and the fact one point on the scale is not the same at another point. When interpretated as a kind of block headed absolute, you attempt to recuce all into one, and that, my friends, is a totally human contrivance. For the rest of us, we can easily see and recognize that the experience of seeing a rainbow is a qualitatively different noun than the so-called objective temperature of Mars. We can, indeed, call these the same things, but that is perhaps less usful than trying to posit "good" dichotomies as absolutes. Positve and negative both pertain to electrcity, and male and female are both human, bu calling them the same things, or insisting they are because they are not absolute opposites is more of a word game than an appreciatioln for reality.

JL
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 20, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
There is no empirical evidence supporting the existence free will.


Tell that to the judge. You are stuck in your mind. The world often acts according to how things actually work, not according to what we think. Everyone intuitively knows they have a choice whether to obey the urge to eat that cake or not to, to steal that car or not to. Arguing to the judge that you don't have souch a choice will get you a dime in Sing Sing - and no more.

You only have to look at mind carefully to see what aspects of cognition we have some control over. And mostly, it's just our ability to place our awareness on this or that. We have little to no control over what pops up in mind. Thaty fact that what comes up has a chemical component has nothign to do with free choice,l unless you think the chemicals decide for us. And you can tell that to the judge.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 20, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
And what does Porcupine Tree have to do with this? (Yes, I like some of their songs a lot, great prog.)

Nothing, really, just a little slip of common ground.
Byran

climber
Yosemite
Aug 20, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
Dichotiomies occuring on this one reality would perforce represent a spectrum, ranging from light to darkness, for instance.

Dichotomy: division into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups

Spectrum: a broad range of varied but related ideas or objects, the individual features of which tend to overlap so as to form a continuous series or sequence

These are the definitions I'm working with here, so I don't really understand how a "dichotomy would represent a spectrum". The terms themselves are perhaps even diametrically opposed.

But if you're saying that most things in the universe cannot be separated into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups, then yes I agree and that was my point.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 20, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
Who's worse than klimmer, I'd say this guy...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIytNFzJoPk

Kirk Cameron and Liberty University...

Just aired last night on a cable network, you can probably guess which one.

Shameful. Proactively trying to install Christian judges, Christian lawyers, Christian policy makers throughout American institutions from sea to sea.

But Largo sees no problem here.

Keep on keepin on, fellow secular progressives, fight the good fight.

.....

Largo's basic problem is what it's always been. He's completely shut himself off to the idea that consciousness arises from the brain's doings, that thoughts and feelings, including ideas, have a material basis, a physical basis. All his tripe concerning mind, spirit, consciousness, subjectivity, etc. stems from this closemindedness.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 20, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
Bryan,

It's nice to read the post of someone who pays attention to the English language. You're getting way too close to my own pet peeve -- the use of "alternatives" when the proper word is "options." If there exist two mutually exclusive choices, those choices constitute alternatives. If there exist more than two choices, those choices constitute options.

Now as to this topic, reading the posts keeps reminding me of a rather old joke. "How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb?" Answer: Only one, but the light bulb must want to change.

How many posts does it take to get someone with a different view to understand a poster's position on this thread? I think the answer is only one, but the reader needs to have the desire to understand what the poster is trying to say.

John
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 20, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Fructose, Jstan, Cintune, Dave, Brian, et all, for you

all others disregard, and please stay immersed in......whatever..dream state amuses you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY7cvp6tWkQ
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 20, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
Let these poor people believe their fairy-tales.
Yeah, as if these beliefs in fairy-tales (ala the Kirk Camerons and Liberty U graduates) don't have real-world consequences in our democracies, courtrooms and legislatures. Really, how can people be so dumb, the dots to connect are not that far apart.

I don't know where you're from, but here in Europe nobody cares about religion anymore anyway. It is not taken seriously, seen just as a comical tradition.

Norton, this is what we want. ;)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 20, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
Bryan said: But if you're saying that most things in the universe cannot be separated into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups, then yes I agree and that was my point.


You need to go easy on the staunch literalist interpretation here, or at any rate, look at ALL the definitions per dichotomy, including: "something with seemingly contradictory qualities."

No one is suggesting this is absolutely cut and dry, much as we would like it to be so as we could properly use worlds like "cannot" as Bryan used above. But reality reality squares perfectly with the dictionary terms, and of course, it is reality, and not a mere term, that is important. When we expect a mentally created term to frame reality, perfectly, we will be disappointed most every time. But if we are literal thinkers, we will fight for the term with tooth and nail. That's simply how some people's minds work.

The important point here is that there is a balancing of seemingly opposite forces at play in our lives and in the world around us. It is true on one hand, Bryan might struggle to appreciate this fact and insist that life and death, aggressive and passive, sad and happy, light and dark are not opposing forces, and that in fact a few photos left over from the big bang have slipped into the broom closet and it's not actually dark in there at the sub-atomic level. But of course the rest of us understand the dynamic sure as we know the difference between a block of ice and a blow torch.

If we go with Bryan's all-or-nothing point that reality, in an ultimate sense, "cannot be separated into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups" of qualities, then that leaves us one basic reality. And since every schoolboy knows the difference between a block or ice and a blow torch, between the waves on Pipeline and the sand in Death Valley, and that these are not selfsame, we must therefor place these things on a continuum, ero, light and dark, wet and dry, hot and cold, while perhaps not mutually exclusive or contradictory, nevertheless represent a spectrum.

JL
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 20, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
You mean the youngsters you and your ilk are trying to politically pimp?

No, that is your technique, and it scares Jesus out of you that anyone could be exposed to anything other than your propaganda, that's why you are trying to exclude anything else from America.

Because when people are allowed to make up their minds......not be threatened with burning at the stake....they often don't see things your way.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 20, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
G-d set a length of time for a man’s life to be no longer than 120 years.

WAIT! 120 years has ALREADY BEEN EXCEEDED!

Does that mean God was wrong?

By the way, G-d is the common abbreviation for Goddamn. I wish you would cut back on your profanity, particularly using God's name.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Because when people are allowed to make up their minds......not be threatened with burning at the stake....they often don't see things your way.

Hey , Largo-Meister , hear that!,
Hahahaha

This guy has been workin' too hard

"Ken" M:
When is the last time you've had a proper 'bleeding'
Hahaha.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 20, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
Fruity, you bumbling montebank, you said: Largo's basic problem is what it's always been. He's completely shut himself off to the idea that consciousness arises from the brain's doings, that thoughts and feelings, including ideas, have a material basis, a physical basis. All his tripe concerning mind, spirit, consciousness, subjectivity, etc. stems from this closemindedness.
---


You want to reduce ideas to simple black and white terms, but does reality ever conform to this.

I have always said that objective functioning is almost certainly and entirely brain-based. But that does not remotely exhaust "mind," nor yet it does not address awareness et al. Trying to say mind and the brain are selfsame is just another attempt to simplify everything to a numeric formula. But that perforce leaves you with a mechanistic belief per human behavior that runs counter to how we live. Nobody in their ‘right mind’ lives as though they have no mind. In fact they’d be psychopaths. And the courts won't accept a mechanistic explanation for criminal acts. You do the time for your crime. Period.

Also, when you stick with a strictly mechanistic view that the brain "creates" consciousness, you are basically saying that chemical and electrical goings on are experiential in terms of the brain, but when they occur in every other place in the universe, they are not. That is, if I say consciousness is merely the electrical impulses between neurons, why don't similar electrical impulses in my TV or cell phone produce consciousness?

I think the bottom line here is that everyone wants to understand. Some believe they can understand everything on the basis of the idea that at some level of biological complexity, mind jumps out of the brain like a rabbit out of a hat, but in fact nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. Those believing that neuroscience can explain mind in strictly in terms of objective functioning have spawned what experts refer to as "pop neuroscience."

Like the article said:

Aristotle thought that the function of the brain was to cool the blood. That seems ludicrous now; through neuroscience, we know more about the brain and how it works than ever before. But, over the past several years, enthusiasm has often outstripped the limits of what current science can really tell us, and the field has given rise to pop neuroscience, which attempts to explain practically everything about human behavior and culture through the brain and its functions.

A backlash against pop neuroscience is now in full swing. The latest, and most cutting, critique yet is “Brainwashed: The Seductive Appeal of Mindless Neuroscience,” by Sally Satel and Scott Lilienfeld. The book, which slams dozens of inconclusive studies that have been spun into overblown and downright dubious fields, like neurolaw and neuromarketing, is a resounding call for skepticism of the most grandiose claims being made in the name of neuroscience. The authors describe it as “an exposé of mindless neuroscience: the oversimplification, interpretive license, and premature application of brain science in the legal, commercial, clinical, and philosophical domains." The book does a terrific job of explaining where and how savvy readers should be skeptical.

Subjective and objective are in my mind intimately connected, but are not at all the same things and demand different approaches to explore, just as you use caving techinques in a cave and climbing techniques on a wall.

One size does not fit all - though we would like it to be so.


JL
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 20, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
Tell that to the judge. You are stuck in your mind. The world often acts according to how things actually work, not according to what we think. Everyone intuitively knows they have a choice whether to obey the urge to eat that cake or not to, to steal that car or not to. Arguing to the judge that you don't have souch a choice will get you a dime in Sing Sing - and no more.

I have to comment on this one. It's a very interesting subject to me.

An urge is not the same as a lack of free will. For instance, if I have no free will and get an urge to eat cake and then resist the urge, all that says is that my programming determined that NOT eating cake was the thing to do. It does not mean that my programming was making me eat cake and some other thing somehow made me contradict my programming. The urge that we speak of here is just one factor in how we decide to eat the cake.

JL, you are a smart guy. Give it some though and you will see that a lack of free will does not mean that a person cannot overcome a conscious urge. It means that they have an internal decision making process that produces a specific result for a specific set of inputs. This may not be related to the outward emotional urge that we feel in our conscious mind.

You are way oversimplifying things to support your point of view. There are just too many things that we use for our decision making process to be able to see how our minds are picking actions in a predictable fashion.

Dave






Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 20, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Record Squid.

You're not looking at the question of free will in the sense that I am, and have for forty years. If you study the process of mind, very closely, from the inside, you will see that your programming does not entirely determine where and how we focus our attention, and on what we place or pay attention. We do have some modicum of free will separate from the content of our brains. But this will take some explaing, and right now I gotta to to the sangha to be there for 6 oclock meditation.

JL

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 20, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
Intermission.

Hilarious, check it out...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qRhe2WojCg

A parody of "Blurred Lines"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwT6DZCQi9k
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
Aug 20, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
G-d set a length of time for a man’s life to be no longer than 120 years.

WAIT! 120 years has ALREADY BEEN EXCEEDED!

Does that mean God was wrong?


Seems only one person has exceeded 120 on this side of the age allowance. A French woman at the age of 122. Perhaps she found favor in HaShem's eyes?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people




Genesis 6:3 KJV
[3] And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Seems to me it's not an absolute set value. Not everyone lives to be 120 years. It can be less. It can be more. Perhaps it's a high average. Would be interesting to know more about that French woman. What was her lifestyle? Mediterranean diet no doubt. A little vino here and there perhaps and olive oil.


Edit:


Interesting woman ...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment

Calment smoked from the age of 21 (1896) to 117 (1992),[2][16] though according to an unspecified source, she smoked no more than two cigarettes per day.[17] After her operation, Calment needed to use a wheelchair. She weighed 45 kilograms (99 lb) in 1994.

Calment ascribed her longevity and relatively youthful appearance for her age to olive oil, which she said she poured on all her food[4] and rubbed onto her skin, as well as a diet of port wine, and ate nearly one kilogram (2.2 lb) of chocolate every week.[12]
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 20, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
well Klimmer

once again, you are wrong

just this week it was reported that a man In Bolivia is 123 years old and STILL ALIVE

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-bolivia-oldest-person-123-20130815,0,4445976.story

that makes TWO people that we KNOW of, at LEAST that have lived longer than the
120 year MAXIMUM that your silly fairy tale Guy in Sky commanded

and the beat goes on, Imaginary Friends, Young Earth Creationism,

murder, torture, rape and slavery, ALL in the Bible, AS god "commanded"

what a complete ass of a god you "worship", go ahead....pick another one
dirtbag

climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Remember: God kills people.

Not AIDS, not guns, not black mambas: God.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Aug 20, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
And people actually take this seriously?

And there I was thinking it was just a Muslim, Hindi or Buddist thing to hate the Infidels. At least they are still the world wide majority.

By 56% if you can believe that stuff? Not sure were the Jews fit into all of this. I imagine they are pissed as well for not getting counted properly. I would be if I cared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 20, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Norton,

May be the oldest. Not verified.

Why do you hate G-d so much?

Who are you to counsel G-d?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 20, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
Why do you hate G-d so much?

I don't......you can't "hate" a made up story, you can only scoff at it


Who are you to counsel G-d?

silly question, grow up
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 20, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Genesis 6:3 KJV
[3] And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Seems to me it's not an absolute set value. Not everyone lives to be 120 years. It can be less. It can be more. Perhaps it's a high average.

This is the kind of hypocrisy of which I speak.

An absolute statement. Like: Thou shall not kill.

But when contradicted by actuality, THEN it becomes flexible.

"The Lord said".....but maybe he didn't mean what he said. Maybe he didn't know that he could be misinterpreted. Maybe circumstances he'd not foreseen changed his mind.

And, interesting, were these two Christians?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Aug 20, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
We don't, Jesus is my beautiful Lord and Savior!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 20, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
Want another good reason to "hate" Christians, and NOT Christianity?

you know, Christians like Klimmer and his "ilk"?

because they absolutely would say NO to letting these two old women get married:

Actress Lily Tomlin confided to E! Online writer Marc Malkin that she and her partner of 42 years are contemplating getting married. The “9 to 5″ star said that she and Jane Wagner, who met in 1971, never thought that they would see legal same sex marriages in the U.S. in their lifetime.

“Jane and I have been together for 42 years,” Tomlin said Monday at The Academy of Television Arts & Sciences Pre-Emmy Performers Peer Group reception. “You didn’t think that would happen. It’s pretty remarkable.”

Tomlin, who turns 74 on September 1, said that she and Wagner, 78, began to contemplate tying the knot after seeing how happy getting married made several of their friends.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/20/lily-tomlin-contemplating-marriage-with-partner-after-42-years-together/



Most opposition to same-sex civil marriage is rooted in religious conviction. A recent Pew poll found that 73 percent of those who believe that gay sex is sinful oppose it

Leviticus 20:13 says, "If a man has sexual relations with a man ... both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death."


PUT TO FUKING DEATH, god says to MURDER BOTH OF THEM
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 21, 2013 - 12:36am PT
Wasn't Norton on Everest in 1924?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:10am PT
Also, when you stick with a strictly mechanistic view that the brain "creates" consciousness . . .

These ideas crop up in thread after thread - like an old vinyl record stuck in a groove. Must be trying to make a point . . .?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:24am PT
Also, when you stick with a strictly mechanistic view that the brain "creates" consciousness . . .

These ideas crop up in thread after thread - like an old vinyl record stuck in a groove. Must be trying to make a point . . .?
---


That's because the above is the gospel of what is now called "pop neuroscience," that "mind is what the brain does," jumping off our gray matter like a rabbit jumps out of a hat. It's a belief that won't go away because they keep preaching it - exactly like you describe, stuck in a groove. It's what underscores many people's belief about consciousness, mostly drawn from the common sense fact that if you drug a man or shot him dead, consciousness stops. So it must be a product of the body, right?

Certainly makes sense on the face of it.

JL
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:55am PT
Leviticus 20:13 says, "If a man has sexual relations with a man ... both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death."

And not one word in scripture about two women.

And yet.....plenty of license to hate.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:35am PT
The word of G-d is very clear on what is sin and what isn't. Homosexuality is sinful. Is it the worst sin? No. But its sin. Sin leads to spiritual death and separation from G-d.


Question: "What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-Bible.html



To say the Bible doesn't talk about Lesbianism would be absolutely wrong. It's very clear that its sin as is all of Homosexuality.



Question: "What does the Bible say about being a lesbian? Does the Bible mention lesbianism?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-lesbian.html


Romans 1:26-27
“Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”


G-d wiped out "the Cities of the Plain" as a testimony for all time against the sin of Homosexuality. Nothing is new under the Sun.






Today, however, we live in the time of grace. There is forgiveness when you confess your sins and come to Yeshua. We don't live now under the curse of the Torah, which is immediate physical death when G-d's Laws are broken. But in this New Covenant dispensation of time, when you come to G-d and receive his forgiveness, through the Lamb of G-d -- Yeshua HaMashiach, he expects you to live by and gives you the power to change through his spirit, the Ruach HaKodesh, The Holy Spirit. This is the "Born Again" experience. You will change and for the better.

Yes, we are still to be Torah observant however. The Jews are to uphold the Law of Moses and the 613 commandments, they have a greater responsibility with being "The Chosen," (a little hard to do at this time however without the Temple), and having brought the Word of G-d and Salvation through Yeshua to the World. The Gentile Nations are to uphold the 10 commandments and the Noahic Laws. Recall, The Torah, is a School Master to teach us in no uncertain terms what sin is, and that the consequences of sin is death and separation from G-d.



No one is supposed to hate or cause harm to another human being. Hate the sin but love the sinner, just as Yeshua did.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 21, 2013 - 03:34am PT
Some actually intelligent people have been banned here and you survive ?

Most banned members were excluded for insolence...not one of Klimmer's failings, Jim.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 21, 2013 - 04:21am PT
This should be said twice so the other ear can hear it too!


Aug 20, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Fruity, you bumbling montebank, you said: Largo's basic problem is what it's always been. He's completely shut himself off to the idea that consciousness arises from the brain's doings, that thoughts and feelings, including ideas, have a material basis, a physical basis. All his tripe concerning mind, spirit, consciousness, subjectivity, etc. stems from this closemindedness.


You want to reduce ideas to simple black and white terms, but does reality ever conform to this.

I have always said that objective functioning is almost certainly and entirely brain-based. But that does not remotely exhaust "mind," nor yet it does not address awareness et al. Trying to say mind and the brain are selfsame is just another attempt to simplify everything to a numeric formula. But that perforce leaves you with a mechanistic belief per human behavior that runs counter to how we live. Nobody in their ‘right mind’ lives as though they have no mind. In fact they’d be psychopaths. And the courts won't accept a mechanistic explanation for criminal acts. You do the time for your crime. Period.

Also, when you stick with a strictly mechanistic view that the brain "creates" consciousness, you are basically saying that chemical and electrical goings on are experiential in terms of the brain, but when they occur in every other place in the universe, they are not. That is, if I say consciousness is merely the electrical impulses between neurons, why don't similar electrical impulses in my TV or cell phone produce consciousness?

I think the bottom line here is that everyone wants to understand. Some believe they can understand everything on the basis of the idea that at some level of biological complexity, mind jumps out of the brain like a rabbit out of a hat, but in fact nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. Those believing that neuroscience can explain mind in strictly in terms of objective functioning have spawned what experts refer to as "pop neuroscience."

Like the article said:

Aristotle thought that the function of the brain was to cool the blood. That seems ludicrous now; through neuroscience, we know more about the brain and how it works than ever before. But, over the past several years, enthusiasm has often outstripped the limits of what current science can really tell us, and the field has given rise to pop neuroscience, which attempts to explain practically everything about human behavior and culture through the brain and its functions.

A backlash against pop neuroscience is now in full swing. The latest, and most cutting, critique yet is “Brainwashed: The Seductive Appeal of Mindless Neuroscience,” by Sally Satel and Scott Lilienfeld. The book, which slams dozens of inconclusive studies that have been spun into overblown and downright dubious fields, like neurolaw and neuromarketing, is a resounding call for skepticism of the most grandiose claims being made in the name of neuroscience. The authors describe it as “an exposé of mindless neuroscience: the oversimplification, interpretive license, and premature application of brain science in the legal, commercial, clinical, and philosophical domains." The book does a terrific job of explaining where and how savvy readers should be skeptical.

Subjective and objective are in my mind intimately connected, but are not at all the same things and demand different approaches to explore, just as you use caving techinques in a cave and climbing techniques on a wall.

One size does not fit all - though we would like it to be so.


JL

GRANDIOUS!!
MH2

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
That is, if I say consciousness is merely the electrical impulses between neurons, why don't similar electrical impulses in my TV or cell phone produce consciousness?


From the man who often has told us that, "Your Uncle is not your Aunt?" How much similarity do you see in TV, cell phone, and brain?



Thanks to this thread for giving JL a place for his compulsion. Apparently a kind of venting needs to take place regularly. Consciousness geysers up out of the unborn no-thing. There are poor deluded souls with the nutty notion that "geysering is what the earth does," steam jumping off hot rocks like a rabbit jumps out of a hat. But first-person subjective geysering is unfathomable and ungraspable and cannot be spread on toast and taken with tea for elevenses.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
Aug 21, 2013 - 12:03am PT
Klimmer,

You should just sing: Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy until you're dead because you have divorced yourself from reality both physical and spiritual.

The Torah is the First Testament and regardless of evangelical editing, you know this is true.

Your post previous has shown you to be an anti Semite and a baffled moron clinging to conviction.

Some actually intelligent people have been banned here and you survive ?


The Torah is the First Testament and regardless of evangelical editing, you know this is true.

Jim,

What are you trying to say? Huh?


Your post previous has shown you to be an anti Semite and a baffled moron clinging to conviction.


How am I anti-semitic? I'm part Jewish and I have many Jewish friends, I support Israel, and I attend a Messianic Judaic Synagogue. Please explain.


Some actually intelligent people have been banned here and you survive ?


I climb, BC ski, paraglide, and I like getting into heavy topics of discussion here on ST. I never try to attack anyone personally. Yet I am called all kinds of names under the Sun, and ST posters want me to lose my job and also be banned from ST. Yet I try to have civil conversations and back-up what I say from the sources I deem worthy. What gives? How come?

Why are you so angry Jim?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
... first-person subjective geysering is unfathomable and ungraspable and cannot be spread on toast and taken with tea for elevenses.

For me, that settles it.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
Can we build a robot that has consciousness?

As usual, Dave, you raise an interesting point.

For that matter, how do we determine what does and does not have consciousness? If I were to assemble a robot with sufficient sensors and artificial intelligence to show all the reactions of, say, a mouse to any known stimuli, how can I determine if it does or does not possess consciousness?

I've often wondered how one defines "life" at all. We have a basic assumption that conforms to the chemistry of carbon, but what if there were an organization of matter and energy that exhibited the characteristics of a living being, but on a very much grander scale (for example, an organization of stars and planets (or planetoids)? Could we even detect such a macro-organized system?

John
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Hate of anything is just that...hate. Hate is wrong and we should try not to hate.

That being said, I kinda hated the idiot in front of me on the highway earlier today that was making her cell phone her priority while driving 80.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
We have known for sometime now that our brains are where we think.

Qs: Can our hearts think? Can our heart communicate with our brain? Can thought and emotions go heart to brain?



I'm asking these questions because this morning I had a really interesting deep conversation with a friend who is in the mental health field and he told me about this. He said yes, the research is showing and indicating that the heart can think and it effects our thoughts, our emotions, and obviously our health. He said they are using this to calm and sooth patients now. They find if you can calm the actual heart itself, a heart that is beating very non-rhythmically, then the desired outcome of calming the behavior and thought processes can be achieved.

He's also a believer in Yeshua. And he says the Bible has a great deal to say regarding the heart of man. That in many ways who we really are stems from our actual physical heart.

I always thought it was the brain. The heart is just a pump. Perhaps it isn't just a pump, but there is a far greater connection between the heart and the mind and the soul?



http://www.heartmath.org/research/science-of-the-heart/introduction.html

Introduction
For centuries, the heart has been considered the source of emotion, courage and wisdom. At the Institute of HeartMath (IHM) Research Center, we are exploring the physiological mechanisms by which the heart communicates with the brain, thereby influencing information processing, perceptions, emotions and health. We are asking questions such as: Why do people experience the feeling or sensation of love and other positive emotional states in the area of the heart and what are the physiological ramifications of these emotions? How do stress and different emotional states affect the autonomic nervous system, the hormonal and immune systems, the heart and brain? Over the years we have experimented with different psychological and physiological measures, but it was consistently heart rate variability, or heart rhythms, that stood out as the most dynamic and reflective of inner emotional states and stress. It became clear that negative emotions lead to increased disorder in the heart’s rhythms and in the autonomic nervous system, thereby adversely affecting the rest of the body. In contrast, positive emotions create increased harmony and coherence in heart rhythms and improve balance in the nervous system. The health implications are easy to understand: Disharmony in the nervous system leads to inefficiency and increased stress on the heart and other organs while harmonious rhythms are more efficient and less stressful to the body’s systems.

More intriguing are the dramatic positive changes that occur when techniques are applied that increase coherence in rhythmic patterns of heart rate variability. These include shifts in perception and the ability to reduce stress and deal more effectively with difficult situations. We observed that the heart was acting as though it had a mind of its own and was profoundly influencing the way we perceive and respond to the world. In essence, it appeared that the heart was affecting intelligence and awareness.

The answers to many of our original questions now provide a scientific basis to explain how and why the heart affects mental clarity, creativity, emotional balance and personal effectiveness. Our research and that of others indicate that the heart is far more than a simple pump. The heart is, in fact, a highly complex, self-organized information processing center with its own functional "brain" that communicates with and influences the cranial brain via the nervous system, hormonal system and other pathways. These influences profoundly affect brain function and most of the body’s major organs, and ultimately determine the quality of life.


......


The Intelligent Heart
Some of the first modern psychophysiological researchers to examine the conversations between the heart and brain were John and Beatrice Lacey. During 20 years of research throughout the 1960s and ’70s, they observed that the heart communicates with the brain in ways that significantly affect how we perceive and react to the world.

A generation before the Laceys began their research, Walter Cannon had shown that changes in emotions are accompanied by predictable changes in heart rate, blood pressure, respiration and digestion. In Cannon’s view, when we are "aroused," the mobilizing part of the nervous system (sympathetic) energizes us for fight or flight, and in more quiescent moments, the calming part of the nervous system (parasympathetic) cools us down. In this view, it was assumed that the autonomic nervous system and all of the physiological responses moved in concert with the brain’s response to a given stimulus. Presumably, our inner systems tooled up together when we were aroused and simmered down together when we were at rest, and the brain was in control of the entire process.

The Laceys noticed that this simple model only partially matched actual physiological behavior. As their research evolved, they found that the heart seemed to have its own peculiar logic that frequently diverged from the direction of the autonomic nervous system. The heart appeared to be sending meaningful messages to the brain that it not only understood, but obeyed. Even more intriguing was that it looked as though these messages could affect a person’s behavior. Shortly after this, neurophysiologists discovered a neural pathway and mechanism whereby input from the heart to the brain could "inhibit" or "facilitate" the brain’s electrical activity. Then in 1974, the French researchers Gahery and Vigier, working with cats, stimulated the vagus nerve (which carries many of the signals from the heart to the brain) and found that the brain’s electrical response was reduced to about half its normal rate. In summary, evidence suggested that the heart and nervous system were not simply following the brain’s directions, as Cannon had thought.


Neurocardiology: The Brain in the Heart

While the Laceys were doing their research in psychophysiology, a small group of cardiovascular researchers joined with a similar group of neurophysiologists to explore areas of mutual interest. This represented the beginning of the new discipline of neurocardiology, which has since provided critically important insights into the nervous system within the heart and how the brain and heart communicate with each other via the nervous system.

After extensive research, one of the early pioneers in neurocardiology, Dr. J. Andrew Armour, introduced the concept of a functional "heart brain" in 1991. His work revealed that the heart has a complex intrinsic nervous system that is sufficiently sophisticated to qualify as a "little brain" in its own right. The heart’s brain is an intricate network of several types of neurons, neurotransmitters, proteins and support cells like those found in the brain proper. Its elaborate circuitry enables it to act independently of the cranial brain – to learn, remember, and even feel and sense. The recent book Neurocardiology, edited by Dr. Armour and Dr. Jeffrey Ardell, provides a comprehensive overview of the function of the heart’s intrinsic nervous system and the role of central and peripheral autonomic neurons in the regulation of cardiac function.




The Bible has a great deal to say about the heart of man, and I think that it means it literally, not just figuratively, or that the heart is a another way of saying brain. I think it really actually means the literal physical heart. Is the Bible once again way ahead of science, and is science now just catching up to this profound truth?


200 Bible Verses about
The Heart
http://www.openbible.info/topics/heart
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
MH2, go back to schlepping bed pans. Insisting that a mechanistic view of life can also be viewed as a compulsion, but you don't label it as such no matter how much folks trot it out? Why. Because you believe it. Everyone else is on a tagent, by your way of thinking. Grab that pan and beat it . .

Per free will, what makes this difficult to get hold of is it implies a break in the causal connection to ones internal and external environment. A truly free decision, unfettered by ones own conditioning and programming, would be something that came from nothing, and our brains cannot grasp anything that is unborn, that is not created by antecedent causes or is not part of a mechanical sequence.

So free will makes no logical sense at many levels.

JL
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Dave, I thought AI was relatively new when I was studying math at Berkeley (slightly more than 40(!) years ago), and I avoided courses on automata theory because I was afraid they would force me to spend the wee morning hours in the computer center. Ironically, my first job out of college was in econometric analysis, and I needed to do my own programming to use certain iterative estimation techniques when normal least-squares regressions wouldn't work.

I've seen material on the issue of consciousness of machines, but very little on the possibility of consciousness on the ultra-large scale -- other than the ending scene of one of the "Men in Black" movies (I can't remember which one).

John
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
If heart, mind, and soul are true, for all organic living humans, then how will AI create a heart that communicates to the brain (as ours does, see above), and how will man give the soul to a AI Robot?

I think that is only G-d's domain.

An AI Robot will only be just that. It truly will never be alive and have the complete essence that only G-d can give to life.



The Greatest Commandment ...

Matthew 22:37 (KJV)
Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."


AI will never be able to do this.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
We find ourselves alive in this strange existence confronted with love and hate, beauty and horror, sorrow and happiness, and always near to us the anxiety of anticipation and the dread of our own inevitable annihilation.

As well, we find ourselves compelled by curiosity as to what we are, how we got here and what our lives mean, if anything.

We are overwhelmed by the sublime nature of the “mysterium tremendum et fascinans” and so demand, through a host of anthropomorphic deities, a reconciliation to our existential dilemma.

The very structure of our minds both forms and reflects our understanding and curiosity with regard to the natural world.

Reason is a product of the construction of our minds; our minds like our senses are the products of natural forces and an evolution that favors us as the survivors of a long struggle for viability. How is it that evolution would favor sensory perception that deceives us? Survival itself dictates the accuracy of our senses! Can’t we say the same for reason?

Reason, not unlike our sensory perception, is a natural mechanism that favors our success as inhabitants of this world. Why would we abandon it except as a path to reconcile ourselves to what we think we simply cannot abide?

And more to the point, why would a god give us a “reason” that so favors our success and yet so often stands vehemently against the faith many say he demands?

Nobody can, and nobody wants to, argue against a god that can be anything; certainly all possibilities are possible. What god might be or when and how god might function beyond being is a fascinating question but perhaps that fascination may elicit too easily the abandonment of reason for the pleasure, fascination and reconciliation allowed by faith.

Unfortunately the sleep of reason too often produces monsters.

The mystery of consciousness is just that, a mystery. That humanity can create a machine that experiences a profound self awareness seems doubtful given the complexity of the problem and the brevity of our lives.
Anyone that claims they’ve solved the mystery of our consciousness or even the mystery of being itself seems to be selling the problem short for the benefit of their own peace of mind. For what is religion if not a self-assuring metaphor that resolves the grave and constant in our lives. And perhaps science in its infinite self-righteousness and reductive processes promises a similar reconciliation.

There’s just seems to be more to it than that.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
I've seen the term "hate" used a lot on this thread, but the usage makes me think there's a very elastic definition of the word. "Hate" and "disagree" differ greatly in meaning, but reading this thread would make me think otherwise. I could say the same thing about the use of "anti-."

Since the likelihood of free world intervention remains nil, though, I'll say no more.

John
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Consciousness comes from the soul.

Stupidity comes from the mind not following the soul .......
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
There is no such thing as a soul, but there's such thing as a brain and science has explained why it thinks it has a soul. But you go on with your bad self believing in fairies and magical sky wizards instead of educating yourself about it...
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
squishy -- There is no such thing as a soul

Thus you are stupid.

It has been scientifically proven to exist .......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
pause for the cause, eh dipstik?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2013/02/27/the-scientific-proof-of-the-existence-of-the-soul/

... yet even this irrefutable proof is viewed with conjecture by modern neuroscientists.

Except one, Dr. Eben Alexander, a Harvard educated neurosurgeon, who after his own near death experience now supports that the soul is separate from the human body and is a true entity, as outlined in his book Proof Of Heaven. His organization Eternea is the frontier science that will identify that we exist after physical death eternally. The Soul is our essence, and, as Edgar Cayce says, we are spiritual beings having a human experience not human beings having a spiritual experience. The soul’s evolution is always towards God and away from material gains. The Soul has sensations and thoughts, desires and beliefs, and performs intentional actions.


Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife Paperback
by Eben Alexander (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1451695195/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1451695195&linkCode=as2&tag=wakitime09-20


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/03/proof-of-heaven-eben-alexander-afterlife_n_2218586.html


http://eternea.org/
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 21, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
hat's your take on evolution in context to what you just posted Largo ? I am curious.

-

Not sure. Good question. I haven't looked closely at evolution since I was reading de Chardin and other "process" folk in grad school. Evolution as a simple fact is incontrovertible. Otherwise, what do we do with the fossils? Arguing against it is something done only by folks trying to preserve the literal hegemony of scripture - a fool's pursuit by any reckoning.

That much said, evolution, as it is commonly understood, is another one of those things/processes that hinges on an unbroken chain of causal events. Random factors may have/probably contributed but these too, once known, can be linked into a mechanical sequence. The few gaps that seem to be there in evolution are pretty obvious and won't go way with people insisting it can all be explained in terms of complexity, or that it took a very long time.

How did DNA self organize? How did the inorganic become organic. There are missing steps there but since we cannot get our heads around something just spontaneously arising, from nowhere, from no immediate and prior cause, science holds out the promise that it can all be explained causally (mechanical link or chain), saying we just don't know exactly what the causes are - yet. But all indications are. Don't be swayed by people insisting that the process is totally known. There is a million dollar prize out there for anyone who can explained these things in a peer review journal and it hasn't happened yet.

I don't know what the answer is to this question and it's so far out of my wheelhouse anything I said would be little more than a wild guess. But my sense is that evolution made some remarkable if not miraculous transitions in the path from star dust and sea gunk to human beings, and that a strictly mechanical explanation - or reverting to "God" - are by no means the only two explanations.

As in most every other field, someone soon will come along who will think about all of this totally outside of the box and the paradigm will shift once more. That's my guess. My guess is that pursuing a purely mechnical explanation will always feature gaps that cannot be fully explained via normal casuality.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 03:03pm PT

Aug 21, 2013 - 11:34am PT
I've seen the term "hate" used a lot on this thread, but the usage makes me think there's a very elastic definition of the word. "Hate" and "disagree" differ greatly in meaning, but reading this thread would make me think otherwise. I could say the same thing about the use of "anti-."

Since the likelihood of free world intervention remains nil, though, I'll say no more.

John

This is because you are a rationalist and pragmatist. You view the state of things as a problem and a predicament to be solved with a reasoned and measured and defined approach .
I think where you err is in preferring this largely temperamentally conditioned approach to polemics as an unwavering default .
It a tough job. Especially in an age of tumultuous change when most people are drawn to the warrior , the advocate and the ideologue-- not the diplomat.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 21, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
I don't know what the answer is to this question and it's so far out of my wheelhouse anything I said would be little more than a wild guess.

This is correct. And to the point that it's a healthy openmindedness, it's only because you don't have all the life experience in causal physics and engineering, in chemistry, in biology to... constrain yourself... most notably to constrain your thinking, words and posts on this matter.

We know your life experience buiding climbing anchors, we don't know your life experience mixing acids and bases, synthesizing amino acids from scratch or exciting nerves or neurons with electrodes in a lab setting.

Personally I don't think it's much. Now if this is true, it should be humbling. And yet, somehow it isn't.

Really, this IS obvious to anyone who does have the experience in these areas. You get away with it here - the rants and responses - only via (a) argument from incredulity, (b) argument from inexperience; (c) argument from authority (from the climbing world).
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 21, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
Whereas you, Fruitcake, argue about spirituality, psychology, and all the rest from such a blockheaded "pop" perspective you get no credence no how.
You need to at least get to a 5.1 level at this material before you sound off. Otherwise it's ludicrous to even listen.

My climbing BG has nothing to do with my words here. Insight comes from adventures in the subjective world, and the objective world. When only the objective is given play, we end up with your POV, which by any cogent view is wildly distorted, pop science babble.

Also, I notice you conveniently side-stepped the actual issues of free will and mechanical causation. Have a crack at those, rather than standing in the shallow end of the pool citing pop authors like Dennett.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 21, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
I notice you conveniently side-stepped the actual issues of free will and mechanical causation.

No. These have already been discussed at this crag, and others, ad nauseum. To the point of neurosis, I'd say.

Remember which one of these two camps has the science on its side.

.....

re: pop science

By the way, I'd be the first to say there's a lot of "pop neuroscience" out there now; just as for many years if not decades there's been a lot of pop science out there. All the more reason for one to gain some education and insight in these areas to be able to distinguish the good from the bad, the real pop from the bogus pop.

But to trot out "pop neuroscience" here in this place in your posts to either club neuroscience at large or club its claim that mentality (mind) is what brain does (heck even your ref quote above accepts this) is absurd and feckless.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
I agree with Werner on this - the deep end of the pool is a lot deeper than you think it is.
Did I get that right? ;-)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 21, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
Fact is, Fruity, you have never actually taken up the issue of free will in a comprehensive way, including the ongoing things going on in various fields other than electronics. Nor have you really looked into causation, or mechanical-reductive thinking, and what is actually involved - though yhou insit that you have, incorrectly, of course. The whole idea that just because "science" is involved is a specious argument here, which is scientism all over again, a position sagely abandoned by porogresive, empirical thinkers.

The crux of free will is the idea that a decision can be made that is NOT causally connected (determined by) our programming OR the environment. Ed tried to fox trot around this by saying that if we encounter something that our hard wiring is not programmed to handle, any decision will be "free," though we almost certainly are influenced if not ruled by the contrasts that our brain provides per the immediate surroundings, whereby we make a logical choice based on the past and our genetics.

Another angle is the idea that random or chaotic factors play in which introduce a choice or decision not beholden to predictable antecedent causes. The falacy here is that just because one cannot a priori (before the fact) know or predict an outcome, owing to random, chotic or complexity factors, the outcome is not mechaincal. In fact, once the random or chaotic factors are known, they too can be fitted into a mechanical sequence of causation.

Free choice as I am describing it is more akin to a creative decision that is not beholden to chaotic or random factors, is not the blowback of complex systems, is not related to the past, or to our porograming, and likewise not from our immediate environment. In other words, a spontaneous act of creativity that is not created or produced by any other thing, that is "free" from all attending factors or influences. Something entirely "new."

Such an idea presents the idea of something that is not created or produceced by anthing, something that did not evolve or issue from any thing or cause.

Logically, this kind of "free will" is impossible. If not, explain it's origins. Or else discuss that which has no origin, ergo it was not created, but simply and spontaneously appeared, apparently from no thing.

For the record, I AM a proponet of the reality of the later, the creative arising of the brand new, which ironically, is the unborn.

For students of this stuff, the key terms to investigate are compatibilists, incompatibilists, metaphysical libertarianism, hard determinism, and hard incompatibilism.

Said issues are also related to various schools studying "emergence," which have implications for free will.

"The school of strong emergence takes the view that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and suggest a downward causation is possible, that is, phenomena at a larger-scale level of organization can exert causal influence on a smaller-scale level. From this stance, the mind is an emergent property of the brain that can control the brain itself, and free will is one such phenomenon. Opposite views are nominal emergence and weak emergence. Both deny the possibility of downward causation and see emergence as an expression of events that fundamentally are microscopically generated."

JL


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 21, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
The Bible has a great deal to say about the heart of man, and I think that it means it literally, not just figuratively,

Don't leave out the gonads, thyroid, adrenals, even the waste products of muscular action.

While the electrical activity of the brain gets all the attention, it lives in a chemical stew.

(and the heart is the most minor of those influences, what you ate for breakfast, the emotions engendered by the hymn you sang, the memories evoked by a smell, or the hot chick you saw, more important)
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Aug 21, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
Man, did u guys ever get trolled.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 21, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
WAAAY Trolled out. T*R must be giggling every day to see how this thread got up and took off.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 21, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
jstan

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
One can imagine what it was like during the dark ages. There were people back then, too, who knew what to do with the space between their ears. The threat of burning at the stake plus all the social coercion from birth onward, had twisted and distorted the minds of many far beyond any chance of understanding, repair or normal function. But somehow, somehow, you had to live.

Back then, above all else, religion sought secular power. Nothing has changed. With religion, nothing ever changes. So we know what it is with which we must deal. Religionists make threats as to what god will do to us. History tells us who it is we really need to defeat.

Mayhap a return to polytheism is an answer. It seems to have been far the less satanic.

If you love monotheism. take a look at the middle east. There it is normal to break into your neighbor's apartment, and kill them as they sleep. I wonder. Do the devout behave the same way in heaven as they do here?

Why would they not?

Maybe, just maybe, heaven is the WORST of what we have here on earth.

Classic, bait and switch.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 21, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
http://kottke.org/13/08/on-the-prescient-nature-of-on-the-nature-of-things
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 21, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
A measure of "social coercion" isn't a bad thing.

Without it you breed juvenile monsters that shoot people in the back,

"because they were bored"



Without monotheism, and the western civilization that followed, it's likely you would have never had the vocation you did.

The University was primarily a creation of religion, and didn't even begin to become secular (with rare exceptions) until the late 1800's.

limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
These arguments are entertaining.

Anyone who thinks either side is obviously correct obviously doesn't understand either side.

Sorry, please continue
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 21, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
What a goofball declaration...
Anyone who thinks either side is obviously correct obviously doesn't understand either side.

Anti-science, are we?

I bet this guy's your hero...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIytNFzJoPk

.....

Nice post, jstan.

Long live in our memories Lucretius, Epictetus, Erotosthenes, Aristarchus, Demosthenes, Hypatia. ;)

.....

Without monotheism, and the western civilization that followed, it's likely you would have never had the vocation you did.

Yeah, well, things sort out funny sometimes.

On the other hand, WHAT IF the ancient Aegean Ionian Science never died out and the Dark Ages never ensued, then perhaps our sciences today would be 1,000 years more advanced than they are. How do like them apples? ;)
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Anti-science, are we?

I love science! That's why I got my masters in ecology & evolution. I've just noticed that the people who think one side of any argument is "obviously" the right choice haven't done their research. I used to be like that too.

There are almost always pieces that we don't have figured out, even though you ripped John apart for saying that.

Science should have an open mind, that's all.



High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 21, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
So you look at the world through the evolutionary ecological lens but still it's God Jesus for you, help me understand that.

Or are you one of these new-age, rebooted or reformatted "Christians" who doesn't by into the supernatural theism of (God) Jesus but rather the sage philosophy of (hippy man) Jesus. Nowadays, it's so hard to tell. But it is a categorical difference than many in Christendom, social media and politics like to gloss over as though "it really don't matter."
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 21, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
I've diverted this thread from the good fun people are having bitch slapping fundamentalists, to esoteric subjects that only I enjoy. My bad.

Carry on.

JL

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 21, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
I'll talk to you about "free will" if you're willing to ground it on something substantive such as the Sam Harris lecture on free will...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

... and control your lap dogs from both the climbing world and the right... such that we might actually have a decent conversation.

.....

who think one side of any argument

Really, how many times do we anthropes have to go over this? Apparently very many.

In practical living, conclusions otherwise decisions sooner or later have to be drawn in any of a variety of areas in order to proceed. Now it may seem sometimes that doing so (i.e., drawing a conclusion) means to "think one side of an argument" but it only seems that way. Many an atheist, for instance, knows full well the arguments, stories and pov's of the Abrahamic theist; he's considered them and rejected them as part of his judgment process. Similarly, same with such subjects as consciousness, so-called causal closure of physics, "free will" etc... So really it is either ignorance or disingenuity or partisanship or all the above to keep trotting out the closemindedness or onesidedness canard.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
Largninski:

I'll see you and raise you one beautiful lady surfer.
Hang ten!!! LOL


limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
So you look at the world through the evolutionary ecological lens but still it's God Jesus for you, help me understand that.

Well I never said anything about Jesus and such, just that we (science geeks) should be careful before we claim to be sure about something. People who say, "you're an idiot for not agreeing with me about something nobody knows for sure" are silly. I mean, nobody even understands genetics, how can we be so positive about the unseen past?

Someone needs to prove it already, then we can all be friends and talk about climbing!

Edit:
Really, how many times do we anthropes have to go over this? Apparently very many. In practical living, conclusions otherwise decisions sooner or later have to be drawn in any of a variety of areas in order to proceed.

By all means, proceed away, but let other people proceed their way. The other road may end up finding the answer before you. It's happened before.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
WHAT IF the ancient Aegean Ionian Science never died out and the Dark Ages never ensued

That science only died out in western Europe after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Byzantine Empire never lost it, despite the very prominent presence of the Christian church there. Arabic science and mathematics thrived during the middle ages. If I were to apply the scientific method to the models being proposed, I'd conclude it's not "Christianity," "Islam," or "organized religion" that causes people to suppress the quest for truth, scientific or otherwise.

If anything, the modern western university culture has become more hostile to an unfettered quest for truth now than it was 50 years ago. If that's a consequence of religion, it's not a religion that believes an a superhuman god.

John
jstan

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
that only I enjoy

Possibly, only possibly mind you, we are making progress.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
If anything, the modern western university culture has become more hostile to an unfettered quest for truth now than it was 50 years ago.

With all due respect, that comment is just insane. I hope you're just trying to troll and that's not your real opinion. Holy smoly!

.....

By all means, proceed away...

Hey, thanks for the encouragement.

but let other people proceed their way

Seriously, isn't this another red herring or what have you? The secular science side isn't waylaying or hog tying up anybody. Right? So no reason really to hang THAT out there.

The other road may end up finding the answer before you. It's happened before.

Yeah yeah, but remember, in large part we're talking science here. Much of it already established. Right? So in a great many areas our options, thinking, speculating, hypothesizing and such are constrained already by what s known already. In other words, it's unlikely we're going to wake up tomorrow to learn that we've discovered a fifth nucleotide of DNA, another inner planet in our solar system, or that ordinary table salt has had a third hidden element in its molecular structure all along.

As I know you know, there is gratitude and beauty concerning the fact that scientific knowledge (or science education) can serve usefully to constrain or restrict our thinking, speculating, hypothesizing in a positive way and in so doing point the way forward on a great many things like problem solving.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
naive, and full of false equivalences
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Arabic science and mathematics thrived during the middle ages

And they sheltered and protected scholars who were of different faiths, including Jewish, while the Dark Ages ravaged on.
MisterE

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
JStan,

Polytheism is what I have found to be a more accommodating place for a lost Taoist.

I can't suffer like a Buddhist.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
A couple of points:

(1) Above I spoke of Ionian science, which proceeded the Byzantine by 1000 plus years. Are you familiar with the Ionian science movement?

(2) Regarding Byzantine science, notable progress in that place and age presently alludes me. Any examples of scientific achievement you can think of that points to impressive scientific progress during this time I would appreciate hearing about. Thanks.
jstan

climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 12:09am PT
If someone breaks out laughing when told they are a god, you know that person has something on the ball. Worth considering.

You would consider deep sixing a thread that has put the republican thread on the third page?
Whoa there!
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 22, 2013 - 12:18am PT
Islamic science
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 22, 2013 - 01:11am PT
http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2011/11/sam-harris-is-wrong-about-science-and-morality/

Just to get another view for balance . . .

JL

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:06am PT
From Largos link^^^

Harris: Well, I actually think that the frontier between science and philosophy actually doesn’t exist… Philosophy is the womb of the sciences. The moment something becomes experimentally tractable, then the sciences bud off from philosophy. And every science has philosophy built into it. So there is no partition in my mind.

So by “science” Harris evidently means, “philosophy” … or at least something that’s not different from philosophy in a principled way. Let me check my brochure for a second and confirm what the title of his talk was — the radical-sounding title that sold so many tickets — yes, here it is, it’s, “Who says science has nothing to say about morality?” If we do a quick update based on Harris’ personal definition of science, we get … “Who says philosophy has nothing to say about morality?”

The answer is: no one ever said that. Moral philosophy plus facts is not “science” telling us objective moral truths.


Start'in to sound like he got religion!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2013 - 03:48am PT
JEleazarian said;

I've seen the term "hate" used a lot on this thread, but the usage makes me think there's a very elastic definition of the word. "Hate" and "disagree" differ greatly in meaning, but reading this thread would make me think otherwise. I could say the same thing about the use of "anti-."

I think this was a point not very well recieved?

We all have points made in our faces everyday! And it is ours to agree or disagree.

But what turns it into love or hate?

Over and over we hear kids say, " I love hotdogs" or "I hate broccoli"

I think as adults we need to master our language.

If I voted repulsedagain dosnt mean I hate democrats!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 22, 2013 - 04:54am PT
"We know your life experience buiding climbing anchors, we don't know your life experience mixing acids and bases, synthesizing amino acids from scratch or exciting nerves or neurons with electrodes in a lab setting."

I can tell you have have over 50 years of highly advanced biochemistry where from basic vegetable material I extract the amino acids, glucose and such and build new cells and detoxify unneeded byproducts, no lab needed!

"Yeah yeah, but remember, in large part we're talking science here. Much of it already established. Right? So in a great many areas our options, thinking, speculating, hypothesizing and such are constrained already by what s known already. In other words, it's unlikely we're going to wake up tomorrow to learn that we've discovered a fifth nucleotide of DNA, another inner planet in our solar system, or that ordinary table salt has had a third hidden element in its molecular structure all along."

Beg to differ. Fact is that Science is now telling us they suspect the vast majority of the universe is made up of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, of which they know precious little. 30 years ago they had little clue that stuff existed. So, we know practically Jack squat about what science says are the main constituents of the universe and smarty pant scientists of 50 years ago were clueless about it's existence. I imagine if we don't kill ourselves, in 10,000 more years of evolution and science, that we'll look back at ourselves with the same awareness that we currently look back at pre-newtonian science today. Heck, serious physicist are speculating about parallel universes and unseen dimensions that bugger comprehension

Science knows a lot but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the whole picture. Religion knows far less about God but God is a tougher and bigger subject (ultimately the same subject as science) and religions limited ideas about God say no more about GOd than the limited ideas science had about nature 3000 years ago say about nature.

Peace

Karl
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:51am PT
JL,

I appreciate the surfing images. Pretty incredible and peaceful, not to mention the ladies in the images are indeed very attractive. A very nice soothing distraction considering the topic at hand.

However, looking at the shot ^above^ I can't help but hearing the soundtrack to JAWS even-though the scene is incredibly beautiful through the sunbeams in the water.

Just another reason to SUP.

Lol.



Edit:


All I'm saying is if you're gonna hang around waiting for a wave, might as well have your feet out of the water ...



Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:58am PT





I'm tired of this argument. How CLUE-LESS. Even though the ^above^ African American woman is incredibly well-spoken, and attractive (cough-cough-excuse me) her logic and reasoning are just absolutely atrocious.


You have to read The Holy Bible, wholly, and in historic context, and then you better have a really good understanding of Judaism. Even Christendom gets it wrong many times and we are suffering as a result, and having to go back and fix theological misconceptions (that have lasted about the last 1800 years), all the time and re-educate and ask HaShem's forgiveness. That's happening now. Christendom is waking up and saying, "You know, we don't really get this. What does this really mean here in the scripture? Maybe we should go ask a Messianic Judaic Rabbi? And what did the Talmud have to say about this? The Jews wrestled with this for the last 3000 years. Maybe they know something?" You think? Of course they do.

The Holy Bible both OT and NT in context describes a time in man's history that is absolutely brutal and cruel and bloody, no matter if you are a pagan or the people of HaShem Adonai Elohim.

Our soft lard butts that sit behind a computer keyboard arguing all day couldn't handle all they had to go through. It was life and death everyday. Life was real. They didn't have grocery stores. It was a very violent period of time in man's history.

The children of Israel, the Jews, were slaves to the Egyptians after experiencing the wonderful time of blessing under the leadership of their own Joseph while in Egypt. After a few hundred years the Egyptians forgot what G-d had done for them through Joseph and now the Children of Israel were slaves and building the Pharaoh's dreams. It was a brutal time. The children of Israel fell away from HaShem into all kinds of sin and idol worship just as the Egyptians around them.

G-d had to bring them out of Egypt by way of Moses. You know the story. While G-d led them through the wilderness for 40 years, he had to change them, and clean them up physically, morally, and spiritually. The trip to Canaan "The Promised Land" was only a few days away from Egypt, but it took 40 years of working with the rebellious Children of Israel through the wilderness before they were ready to take The Promised Land as HaShem promised them!

They had a lot of serious baggage to deal with. They were idol worshippers. Many were homosexuals. Many were into bestiality. Many into incest. Murder. Rape. etc. etc. etc. You get the picture. They weren't any different than the Pagan nations around them. They weren't any different than you and me. Do you understand the spiritual foreshadow of this? Our spiritual lives are like this too. G-d has to clean us up when we come back to him.

Also they were soft, having lived in Egypt under slavery for centuries. They were a beaten down people. They weren't ready for war. HaShem had to put them through "bootcamp" and get them ready to fight. They had many wars ahead of them. HaShem was going to use them as his Army to rid the world of the rest of the Nephilim, the giants, that were in the land that they were promised and that they were going to possess. These were an abomination to G-d. Beings that were half fallen Angel and half fallen Man. They were wicked beyond belief. There must had been another Angelic mutiny on this side of the great flood. Read the Book of Enoch. They had to be wiped out utterly and completely, and even their animals.

When you understand the historical context, and what the times were really truly like, then you will start to understand.


Hey, look at what we did to possess North and South America. Were we any different? We didn't even have HaShem's blessing to do so. He never told us go and take the land. Go and take North and South America and wipe-out all the Native indigenous people. We never got a command from G-d to do so. He never told us "Manifest Destiny." We just did it, which was absolute genocide. And you and I are here as a result. Look at all that the Native North and South Americans have had to endure. Massive continental genocide and broken treaty after broken treaty after broken treaty. We lie with forked tongue.


So if you're gonna point fingers, may I suggest you look in the mirror.

Stop blaming G-d for what he had to do to fix things and get the world back to some reasonableness. And guess what? He isn't finished yet. More to come. Read your Bible.


If you want to know more about this period of time in man's history may I suggest Brian Godawa's great, exciting historical fiction series ...






cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 22, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Heh, cool stories, brah.

But shouldn't that be Brian G*dawa?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 22, 2013 - 12:53pm PT

(HFCS:)
A couple of points:

(1) Above I spoke of Ionian science, which proceeded the Byzantine by 1000 plus years. Are you familiar with the Ionian science movement?

(2) Regarding Byzantine science, notable progress in that place and age presently alludes me. Any examples of scientific achievement you can think of that points to impressive scientific progress during this time I would appreciate hearing about. Thanks.

This was a bigger topic 50-60 years ago. A 1961 symposium at Dumbarton Oaks produced some papers on the issue. A summary is available online:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1291170?uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21102576275167

That repository of all knowledge, and manifestation of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Wikipedia, has a pretty good summary, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_science

The Wikipedia article follows the Dumbarton Oaks summary rather closely. The main Byzantine advances were in medicine and mathematics. The Byzantine and Islamic scientists corresponded during the middle ages, and Constantinople was responsible for translating much of classical scientific texts into Arabic.

IMHO, most western education shortchanges the importance of the Byzantine Empire. About all I learned through high school (in an otherwise superb curriculum) was that the fall of Constantinople to Mehmet the Conqueror was probably the greatest single factor bringing about the Renaissance in western Europe, because the Byzantine scholars brought with them the classical learning the west forgot and lost. The Empire always fascinated me (perhaps because it had so many [often perfidious] Armenian emperors).

John
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Aug 22, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Only 5 seconds and all your questions will be answered-
[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 22, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
The main Byzantine advances were in medicine and mathematics.

So a few example achievements, in your mind, from these fields are? I mean, something's got to be HUGE here somewhere since you brought it up as a relatively significant factor essential to the thinking. Right?

Another perspective is this: by and large the Byzantine E was utmost a keeper and/or messenger of the great Classical learning.

But as far as I'm concerned all this is an aside red herring or deflection, another specialty of supertopo theists. (and lawyers, Christian ones, esp).

.....

heyzeus, good one. :)

.....

Beg to differ. Fact is that Science is now telling us they suspect the vast majority of the universe is made up of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, of which they know precious little. 30 years ago they had little clue that stuff existed.


Oh I see, since the developments of "dark matter" and "dark energy" and multiple universes everything's in revolution and turmoil, "even scientists don't know" - it's all up in the air - so this means really there's no sense "closing in" and drawing conclusions or judgements and proceeding on even basic things like: number of nucleotides (four or five) or chemical structures (e.g.,NaCl), or "brain is the basis of memory" (e.g., my memories of climbing), radiation from nuclear power plants invites disaster - way better to remain open-minded about all these things in this crazy time, better to lay back with a fatty in hand and feet in a cool stream and simply take life a day at a time - Was that the point? "Beg to differ" - lol!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 22, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
The main advances of which I am aware were in urology and in the organization of their hospitals, staffed with both doctors and professional nurses, and organized into sections for treatment of specific diseases. That said, I agree with your overall assessment that the main intellectual contribution of the Byzantine Empire was to compile and preserve classical knowledge, but it went farther than that. Again, to quote Wikipedia:

"Arguably, the first Byzantine physician was the author of the Vienna Dioscurides manuscript, created circa 515 AD for the daughter of Emperor Olybrius. Like most Byzantine physicians, this author drew his material from ancient authorities like Galen and Hippocrates, though Byzantine doctors actively expanded upon the knowledge preserved from Greek and Roman sources. Oribasius, arguably the most prolific Byzantine compiler of medical knowledge, frequently made note of standing medical assumptions that were proved incorrect. Several of his works, along with those of other Byzantine physicians, were translated into Latin, and eventually, during the Enlightenment and Age of Reason, into English and French."

"Another Byzantine treatise, that of the thirteenth century doctor Nicholas Myrepsos, remained the principal pharmaceutical code of the Parisian medical faculty until 1651, while the Byzantine tract of Demetrios Pepagomenos (thirteenth century) on gout was translated and published in Latin by the great post-Byzantine humanist, Marcus Musurus, in Venice in 1517. Therefore it could be argued that previous misrepresentations about Byzantium being simply a 'carrier' of Ancient Medical knowledge to the Renaissance are wrong. It is already known, for example, that a late twelfth century Italian physician at Salerno (Roger of Salerno), was influenced by the treatises of the Byzantine doctors Aetius and Alexander of Tralles as well as Paul of Aegina." [Emphasis added]

"The last great Byzantine physician was John Actuarius, who lived in the early 14th Century in Constantinople. His works on urine laid much of the foundation for later study in urology. However, from the latter 12th Century to the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, there was very little further dissemination of medical knowledge, largely due to the turmoil the Empire was facing on both fronts, following its resurrection after the Latin Empire and the dwindling population of Constantinople due to plague and war. Nevertheless, Byzantine medicine is extremely important both in terms of new discoveries made in that period (at a time when Western Europe was in turmoil), the careful protecting of ancient Greek and Roman knowledge through compendia as well as the revision of that knowledge and finally, its dissemination to both Renaissance Italy and the Islamic world."

I disagree, however, that this is a diversion. It is, in fact, a counterexample to the contention that religion is "anti-science." That model needs refinement.

John
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
A few more quotes for those intrested in the "Science for Living" debate.

The is–ought problem in meta-ethics, as articulated by Scottish philosopher and historian David Hume (1711–76), is that many writers make false claims about what ought to be on the basis of scientific evaluations about what is. Hume discovered and articulated the significant difference between descriptive statements/evanluations/formulas/measurements (about what is) and prescriptive or normative statements (about what ought to be), and how it is anything but obvious, nor yet a logical given, that one can legitimately transition from making descriptive statements and scientific evaluations to prescriptive. The is–ought problem is also known as Hume's law and Hume's Guillotine.

A similar though distinct view is defended by G. E. Moore's open-question argument, intended to refute any identification of moral properties with natural properties or scientific evaluations – aka, this “naturalistic fallacy.”

In other words, there is no way to reason from facts and measurements about the way the world is, to statements about the way the world should be. Basically (Naturalistic Fallacy), you can’t derive values from data.
At all. Ever.

Example. It’s a fact that rape occurs in nature — among chimpanzees, for instance; and there are some evolutionary arguments to explain its existence in humans and non-humans alike. But this fact tells us exactly nothing about whether it’s OK to rape people. This is because “natural” doesn’t entail “right” (just as “unnatural” doesn’t necessarily mean wrong). Indeed, the correct answer is that it’s not OK, and this is a judgement we make at the crossroads of moral philosophy, common sense and social order: it’s not an output of science.

The domain of science is to describe nature, and then to explain its descriptions in terms of deeper patterns or laws. Science cannot tell us how to live. It cannot tell us right and wrong. If a system of thought claims to be doing those things, it cannot be science.

If a scientist tells you she has some statements about how you ought to behave, they cannot be scientific statements, and the lab-coat is no longer speaking as a scientist. Questions about “How should we live?” — for better or worse — fall outside the purview of “objective” measuring. We have to sort them out, messily, by drawing from another well.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
"Example. It’s a fact that rape occurs in nature — among chimpanzees, for instance; and there are some evolutionary arguments to explain its existence in humans and non-humans alike. But this fact tells us exactly nothing about whether it’s OK to rape people. This is because “natural” doesn’t entail “right” (just as “unnatural” doesn’t necessarily mean wrong). Indeed, the correct answer is that it’s not OK, and this is a judgement we make at the crossroads of moral philosophy, common sense and social order: it’s not an output of science."

We agree. How about that! :)

.....

Note: Don't forget you can reduce text and pictures by simply using your Zoom command.

.....

"The domain of science is to describe nature, and then to explain its descriptions in terms of deeper patterns or laws. Science cannot tell us how to live. It cannot tell us right and wrong. If a system of thought claims to be doing those things, it cannot be science."

Here's where it gets tricky, perhaps because of language as much as anything. "Science" can also mean "applied science" which can be normative, ideological, prescriptive. (Good so far?) Best examples are medicine (the goal is usu health, wellbeing) and engineering (the goal is usu performance).

Note that science can inform (a) rockclimbing; (b) games and sports in general. (Good so far?) By reasonable extrapolation it can also inform areas of life and living (re: performance) and, by further extension, life and living at large (again re: performance).

That's always been my basic interest. In basic principles, quite simple really. Unfortunately religions (as practiced traditionally, esp) and their adherents are often impediments to this - esp as one considers things beyond mere self to societies, to cultural evolution over history, and to the world at large.

Just as one can compile (1) a science-informed "How to Rock Climb" manual, (2) a science-informed (aka "scientific") "Raising Baby" manual, so too one person, or a group of persons, can compile (3) a science-informed "Notes to (Younger) Self" manual, for eg. (Popular in the media right now.) (Even collect a bunch of these in a collection and call it an anthology or bible.) All perfectly reasonable. Though of course there will be differing views, opinions, on how useful these are to the "practice" of living. (Just as it should be.) Time of course would (will) tell the tale.

.....

A bit more:

(1a) "If a scientist tells you she has some statements about how you ought to behave, they cannot be scientific statements..."

(1b) If a physician (applied scientist) tells you she has some statements about how you ought to behave (in other words, prescribes, provides you with a prescription), they cannot be scientific statements. (Not so true.)

Yeah, it's tricky, even a mess, where "is" and "ought" intersect with science, but even so, insofar as you're clear on the basic concepts and language, too, you can see through it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
I agree with this Op-ed. Science does utilize faith.


OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
Taking Science on Faith
By PAUL DAVIES
Published: November 24, 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/24/opinion/24davies.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0



"It seems to me there is no hope of ever explaining why the physical universe is as it is so long as we are fixated on immutable laws or meta-laws that exist reasonlessly or are imposed by divine providence. The alternative is to regard the laws of physics and the universe they govern as part and parcel of a unitary system, and to be incorporated together within a common explanatory scheme.

In other words, the laws should have an explanation from within the universe and not involve appealing to an external agency. The specifics of that explanation are a matter for future research. But until science comes up with a testable theory of the laws of the universe, its claim to be free of faith is manifestly bogus."


Paul Davies is the director of Beyond, a research center at Arizona State University, and the author of “Cosmic Jackpot: Why Our Universe Is Just Right for Life.”


Looks like an interesting read ...

Cosmic Jackpot: Why Our Universe Is Just Right for Life [Hardcover]
Paul Davies (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Cosmic-Jackpot-Universe-Just-Right/dp/0618592261/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377198970&sr=8-1&keywords=Cosmic+Jackpot%3A+Why+Our+Universe+Is+Just+Right+for+Life


Science to some degree is faith based. The community of science does indeed think, and rationalizes, and accepts scientific theories that we don't yet have a lot of evidence for or a complete picture. It happens. An honest scientist would admit this. I admit this.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 22, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
If you want to know more about this period of time in man's history may I suggest Brian Godawa's great, exciting historical fiction series ...




fiction.


fiction.

what was that word?

...fiction
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Wade,

Historical fiction.

His series are based on the Bible, The Book of Enoch, biblical archaeology, and a great deal of research by others such as PhD Michael Heiser.

Yes, he takes that foundational framework and goes with it, adding his story telling abilities and his fictional zest.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 22, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
so... historical fiction, based on historical fiction...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_fiction


There is an incredible amount of evidence that the Bible tells the truth about history.

You either accept that evidence that is verifiable and empirical, or you don't. I do. Its verifiable in many, many different ways. (To reject the physical empirical evidence is a form of dishonesty, just as it would be in science.)

Is all of it verifiable? No. Yet, I believe it. I accept it. I have faith that G-d tells the truth.

I also have personal experience that HaShem tells the truth and he abides by his word. But that's for me at this time. I'm not ready to share all that. Maybe one day in a book as a personal testimony. Too many things in my life have happened verifying for me HaShem is real. G-d does do that for us. He will do things to increase our faith. But that experience is different for everyone. Its personal.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 22, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
Crow

"One rain-wet crow on a rail fence
is better than ten angels in the Kingdom of Heaven."

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
Squishy and others,


You have to realize that not all believers think as the ^above^ fundamentalists believers do in the video. Do you agree or disagree?

Just like the Catholic Church (as did the rest of the World) taught and accepted the Geocentric model of the Universe as written by Aristotle, and many believing men of faith and forefathers of science had to prove this to be utterly untrue with the Heliocentric model: Copernicus, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton etc. etc., the same has to happen with this 6000 year belief for all creation of the Universe.

The Bible doesn't say that everything in the Universe was made in literal 6 days. You have to know Hebrew. We've already gone over that in this thread. The entire Universe is Billions of years old. The days in Genesis refer to periods of time. Read PhD Gerald Schroeder's book "The Science of G-d."

Also the Bible goes into great detail regarding the period of time before modern man, Homo sapien, Adam was here. There was a time of the Angels and all the really bad stuff that went down during that time, Lucifer's Fall. The fundamentalists don't like talking about that either.

The Book of Job refers to things that G-d is bringing to Job's attention that existed way before man ever even showed up on the scene! "Where were you Job when ...?"

We've gone over this yet you keep bringing it up. Yes, there are believers who have it wrong on these points of time and actual Biblical history.

However, if they were to lose their lives today they would have salvation. They have the promise of eternal life with HaShem. G-d honors their faith and has forgiven their sins. He won't line them up and say "Ok, everyone who believed in a literal 6 day creation, and that the last 6000 years is all there ever was from the beginning of the Universe, line-up over here next to the door that is really hot. But you Atheists, because you got the time-line right and know in your heart of hearts that the Universe is actually 14.8 Billion years old, well done then, line up over here next to the nice pearly white looking gate."

It's not going to work like that. Not good news for those who reject G-d's plan of salvation.

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Hey Klimmer, can you agree that it's child abuse, what is being done in that video? If not then you are on the opposite side of the argument than I...you are in effect still defending child abuse and if I were more emotional right now I would blast you with unproductive name calling. Get your head out of your ass and educate yourself, for gods sake...PLEASE...can you talk about anything other than the Bible? You are imprisoned by it and you too blind to even notice..

So Saith Shaitan, the wicked!!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Sometimes reading this thread feels like watching Eraserhead, David Lynch's five year vanity freak show, now a cult classic nobody can quite define.

JL

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
Squishy, it really is a window into how our ancient forebears imagined life and the world, eh?

.....

But times are changing.

Richard Dawkins gets a break at last...

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9000431/forget-about-richard-dawkins-fight-the-real-fanatics/

My own version... to the end of this piece would be...
One day there will be a reckoning. One day, thousands who have suffered genital mutilation, religious threats and forced marriages will turn to the intellectual and political establishments of our day and ask why they did not protect them. The pathetic and discreditable reply can only be:

We were raised to respect each others beliefs, to not get involved in what others believe, their religions, to live and let live.

.....

You know, one can imagine if these fundamentalist Christian groups WERE to get a serious foothold in the West, measured in the 100s of millions, how someday there would be a religious World War III between Christians and Muslims. Thank goodness for the secular progression.

.....

This sobering one, "Welcome to the Age of Denial" reminded me of John E and Karl, I wonder why...

Today, however, it is politically effective, and socially acceptable, to deny scientific fact.

My students cannot afford that luxury. Instead they must become fierce champions of science in the marketplace of ideas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/opinion/welcome-to-the-age-of-denial.html?ref=opinion&_r=1&
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
Interesting article, thanks..

You know, one can imagine if these fundamentalist Christian groups WERE to get a serious foothold in the West, measured in the 100s of millions, how someday there would be a religious World War III between Christians and Muslims. Thank goodness for the secular progression.

That is still coming, and it's already happened a few times, it will happen a few more times I am afraid. All we can hope for is they kill each other off and leave enough room for the smart one to get out of the way. Unfortunately it will be disguised as a patriotic war..
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
What if these Christian Fundamentalists were to change their minds and learn of their errors?

What if they came to realize that the Bible really does indicate a very old creation 14.8B years ago, and that our Sun is about 5.0B years old, and Earth really is about 4.56B years old etc.? And there was a long period of time prior to man ever showing up on the scene, the time of Angels? What then? Can they change their minds? Is that allowable?


Heck, even science is allowed an the opportunity to change its mind when confronted with more evidence or evidence that invalidates their hypotheses or theories.

Stranger things have happened. There used to be people all over Earth not so long ago that believed in a Geocentric model of our Universe, now everyone knows the truth that our Solar system is Heliocentric.

Hey, I'm already doing it with some believers I know, and taking them through the Bible and showing them. Some are very resistant to change, some have been easier and see it and have changed their minds and now know they were in error. It is happening. Slowly but its happening.

I have an easier time convincing these fundamentalists of their errors than convincing you that G-d is real and his salvation plan is through Yeshua HaMashiach.

With you we are talking about a major world view, a belief system that absolutely abhors the idea that G-d really exists, and if he does then we are all accountable, and will be held to account.

So who is more entrenched in their beliefs?




And yes, we have to talk about the Bible since it is the Book of the Faith that you are attempting to ridicule and drag through the mud.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 22, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
http://www.aeonmagazine.com/being-human/how-consciousness-works/

Many of our superstitions — our beliefs in souls and spirits and mental magic — might emerge naturally from the simplifications and shortcuts the brain takes when representing itself and its world. This is not to say that humans are necessarily trapped in a set of false beliefs. We are not forced by the built-in wiring of the brain to be superstitious, because there remains a distinction between intuition and intellectual belief. In the case of ventriloquism, you might have an unavoidable gut feeling that consciousness is emanating from the puppet’s head, but you can still understand that the puppet is in fact inanimate. We have the ability to rise above our immediate intuitions and predispositions.

Well, some of us do, anyway.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
Aug 22, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
klimmer do you test your faith the way a scientist tests hers?

DMT



Dingus,

I've already answered that question. YES. There are a plethora of physical empirical evidences that the Bible does indeed describe history correctly and accurately. Are all things verifiable? No. Plenty are though and we keep finding more evidences and verification.

Our faith is not a mind-less, brainless faith. G-d doesn't expect us to throw our brains out the door.

I believe in the Biblical testimony. In fact that belief has changed my life for the better. In fact, I've taken what the word of G-d says and have applied it, and Voila! it works! I've already stated there are other personal evidences that I don't care to share, but for me they are absolute validation that G-d is real and he is true to his word.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Aug 22, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
Klimmer, you do realize you are utterly insane, right?

This thread is golden - the give and take between high fructose and largo is for the ages!! Lol
This is how gentleman battle!!
Never losing the cool
Lol


I suppose you think all of our fathers of modern science are also insane?

Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and the list goes on ...

All Men of G-d and Men of Science. It's what natural philosophy was all about.

From my point of view you are only using half your brain and none of your heart.

So who's insane?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
Yep, centuries ago science was dominated by the religious. If you were not of the right religious beliefs, you couldn't get into some of the groups.

Today, not so much:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
You can't think with a heart (it's job is to pump blood), science already knows that and it's not disputed at all. Why do you think the things your imagination can ponder are real? In light of everything "we" (I am not including you) know? Are you not taken back by the overwhelming reaction to your position? Do you wonder if these people actually know more about the subject than you? That they have done their homework while you had your head in the bible? Are you fearful at all of being wrong? You should BE all those things if you were not insane in the membrane, foo...

If you are wrong, you have wasted your whole life (all you have), if we are wrong, we burn in hell...we can live with the result, can you? That should tell you something dude. If anything, you need to view this from a new perspective, because yours sucks.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
I suppose you think all of our fathers of modern science are also insane?

Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and the list goes on ...

All Men of G-d and Men of Science. It's what natural philosophy was all about.

From my point of view you are only using half your brain and none of your heart.

So who's insane?

I'm not going to counter this claim again, I believe I fairly debunked this assertion on like page 4, tow a new line, quit repeating what you heard on the pulpit and think for yourself damn it, are you not better than this?
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Yep, centuries ago science was dominated by the religious.

Closet atheists or code talkers like Einstein...you have to be a student of history to even fathom the world they lived in, to presume to is just naive from either side of this argument.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
Hey Squished,

can you agree that it's child abuse, what is being done in that video?

I'll agree with you that I don't see any need to teach grade school children about creationism.
But at the same time I see no need to teach them about evolution! Since Neither one is a topic that is forensicly prove able in court. People at this age should only be concentrating on
Math, Eng., Art and PE. But that's my opinion. I don't think Christians should be pushing their beliefs into public schools and neither should atheist. As much as you don't believe in God, I don't believe that man evolved from a plant. It very much affends me that my public school wants to teach my 2nd grader on evolution. I've already talked with the Teacher and my daughter will be staying home on that day. I've joined the PTA and I will be causing a stink over this! I am appalled at how and why subjects get dictated into the curriculum. If ur rants here are more of concern, than just arguing. Then you should get involved! Do you have kids?
I recomend joining the PTA.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
It's a century , not centuries for the US.

Universities did not begin to separate from religious sects until the 1870's and those that did, did not make a complete break until the early 20th century.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:38pm PT

Aug 22, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
klimmer do you test your faith the way a scientist tests hers?

DMT

Dingus, I have. Over and Over and Over again! There's more to proofs than the measuring of materials!

Have you ever been persuaded to NOT do something for conscious sake?
And witnessed by ur non-action that the world was a better place? Or visa-versa?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
Yep, I should have said, centuries ago, scientists had to play the religious game to be a part of the system.

We've had this conversation with Klimmer before.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
Klimmer I think ur doing a WONDERFUL job!!
Keep up the GOOD work!

I agree with everything uve said, except the ark thing? I don't really understand how this could help with my spirituallity? My hope is that we never "see" any material thing that proves God.
But it's not really on my care list!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
That's cool Jim! I think I know what ur saying. I only wish I could describe for you the workings
of the Holy Spirit in our lives with numbers..

Did you catch this above?

Harris: Well, I actually think that the frontier between science and philosophy actually doesn’t exist… Philosophy is the womb of the sciences. The moment something becomes experimentally tractable, then the sciences bud off from philosophy. And every science has philosophy built into it. So there is no partition in my mind.

I think people like Harris and Einstein amongst others teeter tooter on the edge of spirituality,
but are unable to bridle their ego. Therefore they get lost. Just because they come up with some cool formulas doesn't mean their anymore of a man than you or I.
WBraun

climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
Einstein is/was basically stupid.

He only knew what God put in his brain.

Without God you're just a stupid lump of flesh .......
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
I asked God to bless my carne-asada tacos tonight!
That cow gave up his life so's you can live on.
That's simple science. HeHe MooMoo
WBraun

climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
One who protects cow and bull will become intelligent American ......

One who does not protect cow and bull will remain stupid .....
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
wow, you guys are wrong about so many things..

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110621163423/bacon/images/1/1e/Cooked_Bacon.jpg/img]
WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 12:02am PT
It's not about wrong or right.

It's about intelligence.

Do not remain stupid ......
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 12:08am PT
The burden of proof lies with you werner, show me...I am open, show me...
WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 12:10am PT
squishy

Jim Brennan has good brain.

You ..... not so good.

Drink more milk, it will help .......
MH2

climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 12:59am PT
Hey, equal or greater time for a sausage scientist, butterfly specialist:


The storm passed quickly. The rain, which had been a mass of violently descending water wherein the trees writhed and rolled, was reduced all at once to oblique lines of silent gold breaking into short and long dashes against a background of of subsiding vegetable agitation.


A moment later my first poem began. What touched it off? I think I know. Without any wind blowing, the sheer weight of a raindrop, shining in parasitic luxury on a cordate leaf caused its tip to dip, and what looked like a globule of quicksilver performed a sudden glissando down the center vein, and then, having shed its bright load, the relieved leaf unbent. Tip, leaf, dip, relief - the instant it all took to happen seemed to me not so much a fraction of time as a fissure in it, a missed heartbeat, which was refunded at once by a patter of rhymes: I say "patter" intentionally, for when a gust of wind did come, the trees would briskly start to drip all together in as crude an imitation of the recent downpour as the stanza I was already muttering resembled the shock of wonder I had experienced when for a moment heart and leaf had been one.


...But I did discover, at least, that a person hoping to become a poet must have the capacity of thinking of several things at a time. In the course of the languid rambles that accompanied the making of my first poem, I ran into the village schoolmaster, an ardent Socialist, a good man, intensely devoted to my father (I welcome this image again), always with a tight posy of wild flowers, always smiling, always perspiring. While politely discussing with him my father's sudden journey to town, I registered simultaneously and with equal clarity not only his wilting flowers, his flowing tie and the blackheads on the fleshy volutes of his nostrils, but also the dull little voice of a cuckoo coming from afar, and the flash of a Queen of Spain settling on the road, and the remembered impression of the pictures (enlarged agricultural pests and bearded Russian writers) in the well-aerated classrooms of the village school which I had once or twice visited; and - to continue a tabulation that hardly does justice to the ethereal simplicity of the whole process - the throb of some utterly irrelevant recollection (a pedometer I had lost) was released from a neighboring brain cell, and the savor of the grass stalk I was chewing mingled with the cuckoo's noise and the fritillary's takeoff, and all the while I was richly, serenely aware of my manifold awareness.



Vladimir Nabokov
Speak Memory, chapter 11 parts 1 and 2
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 01:10am PT
lol...that's funny, I actually had two glasses of milk with dinner it was yummy..
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 23, 2013 - 01:35am PT
Yeah, Andy, that was cool. I still like Lolita better.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 23, 2013 - 07:36am PT
Universities did not begin to separate from religious sects until the 1870's and those that did, did not make a complete break until the early 20th century



...interesting that of the eight so-called Ivy-League colleges, celebrated for connotations of academic excellence, only Cornell was not founded with a religious affiliation.

...of the fifteen "Little-Ivies", only Vassar was established without religious affiliation.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 10:55am PT
Aug 22, 2013 - 06:49pm PT

Klimmer:
"I suppose you think all of our fathers of modern science are also insane?

Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and the list goes on ...

All Men of G-d and Men of Science. It's what natural philosophy was all about.

From my point of view you are only using half your brain and none of your heart.

So who's insane?"

Squishy:
I'm not going to counter this claim again, I believe I fairly debunked this assertion on like page 4, tow a new line, quit repeating what you heard on the pulpit and think for yourself damn it, are you not better than this?


Squishy,

Because you can't counter it. It's true. Men of science and men of faith, all of them. And it wasn't just, "that is what everyone else does/thinks/believes so we will do that too. Or I better believe and tow the line or I'm going to be persecuted." No, they are men with personal convictions and personal belief in HaShem.


The greatest number of writings of Newton's were on his religious convictions, his faith, his theology, trying to figure out the mysteries of G-d. These writings far surpass his science research and discoveries in shear volume. Even coming up with his own best estimate as to the time of Yeshua's HaMashiach, Jesus Christ's return = 2060AD.




Watch it online for free ...
Newton's Dark Secrets
Centuries-old manuscripts reveal the hidden pursuits of a scientific genius Aired November 15, 2005 on PBS
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/newton-dark-secrets.html



Read and learn a little:

Great read ...
Men of Science Men of God Paperback
by Henry M. Morris (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Men-Science-God-Henry-Morris/dp/0890510806/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1377269113&sr=8-2&keywords=men+of+science+men+of+faith


Scientists of Faith: 48 Biographies of Historic Scientists and Their Christian Faith Paperback
by Dan Graves (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Scientists-Faith-Biographies-Historic-Christian/dp/082542724X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y


Scientists Who Believe: 21 Tell Their Own Stories Paperback
by Eric C. Barrett (Editor) , David Fisher (Editor) , Warren W. Wiersbe (Foreword)
http://www.amazon.com/Scientists-Who-Believe-Their-Stories/dp/0802476341/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_z
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 23, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Drf ur turn'in into norton
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 11:22am PT
The bible says 6 days, literally.
And every good christian says it was 6 days, meaning 24 hour days,
they also believe that Evolution is lie promulated by Satan, and the earth is 6000 years old.

so in reality, you are just a Christian heretic blathering away with total crazytalk according to 99.99999% of the Christians.

If you want to believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and evolution is true, go ahead, but to say the bible agrees is total BS



Read PhD Gerald Schroeder's book, he's a very well respected Jewish MIT scientist and scholar: The Science of G-d.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=36


The OT is Jewish. The NT is Jewish. The prophets were Jewish. Yeshua HaMashiach is Jewish. The disciples were Jewish. Judaism is Jewish. The first Church in Jerusalem, when tens of thousands came to accept Yeshua as HaMashiachm after the resurrection, were all Messianic Jews, Hebrews. It was all Messianic Judaism. There were many Messianic Judaic Synagogues. The Jews have been wrestling with this stuff for over 3000 years!

Christendom is waking up to this fact. They are now realizing they didn't get it all right. They need the Jews. They are starting to understand the significance. Replacement theology was a big lie. Christians are standing up for Israel. They need the Rabbis/Messianic Rabbis as teachers. Messianic Judaism is growing. Christians are returning to the Root of their faith. That is the purpose of the Jews and Israel, to bring the Bible, Yeshua, the Gospel to the World. They are G-d's chosen for a purpose!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism
http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/replacement-theology-israel-and-her-enemies/



You have to know Hebrew and you have to know the Word of G-d. And you have to be led by the Holy Spirit.

And there are multiple levels of understanding ...

Jewish Exegesis: PaRDeS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis);

Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or - simpler - interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:
Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning.[1]
Remez (רֶמֶז) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 11:40am PT
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 11:44am PT
The greatest number of writings of Newton's were on his religious convictions, his faith, his theology, trying to figure out the mysteries of G-d. These writings far surpass his science research and discoveries in shear volume.

Yeah, cus we all know about Newton's major discoveries in theology, faith and god...NOT...we only mention or know his name to this day because of his scientific discoveries, I wonder why? Could the rest be bullsh#t?

Did you know Darwin was religious? He even trained to be clergymen...So what's your damn point? All you are doing is displaying your ability to see thing in very limited black and white and highlighting your ignorance of history...

Need I go on?
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 11:53am PT



























Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 23, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
Squishy quoted Michio Kaku as saying:

It must be a strange world not being a scientist, going through life not knowing - or maybe not caring - about where the air came from, and where the stars at night came from, or how far they are from us. I want to know.
--

Ironically, most of us involved in the subjective adventures feel the same way about that realm, amazed that people are not interested in the inside take on how their minds work, what triggers their identity and how we move thorhg life, and feel and wonder. And what lies in the silences between the avalanche on sensory data. We want to know.

There are things not available to this perspective, just as there are things not available to those looking at life from outside the subjective bubble. When one mode of inquiry seeks to make sweeping statements about the other realm, wild inaccuracies follow every time - we can easily see why.

JL

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 23, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
http://www.bibviz.com/

Regarding the alleged infallibility of the Bible.

Of course, a similar chart could be made encompassing the history of science, but science moves on and discards what has been disproven. Theology, conversely,
behaves like a hoarder; it just can't let go of anything, and so the result is a mass of contradiction that requires true believers to develop a complex of denial and
blind faith to stem the perceived tide of existential dread.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Aug 23, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
t*r ~ easter - jesus dies, we get candy
wrong.

easter - jesus is resurrected from the dead, we get eternal life.

in the mean time, suma' ya'll can go suck on some chocolate easter bunny eggs.

;)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Squishy,

Are you having a graphic tantrum and mental break-down?



Here listen to Porcupine Tree: Dark Matter and relax ...

(great song)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMc-75oLgU8

[Click to View YouTube Video]





"Dark Matter"

[Written by Steven Wilson]

Inside the vehicle the cold is extreme
Smoke in my throat kicks me out of my dream
I try to relax but its warmer outside
I fail to connect, it's a tragic divide

This has become a full time career
To die young would take only 21 years
Gun down a school or blow up a car
The media circus will make you a star

Dark matter flowing out on to a tape
Is only as loud as the silence it breaks
Most things decay in a matter of days
The product is sold the memory fades

Crushed like a rose
In the river flow
I am I know


(Wait for it ...)

You've just had a heavy session of electro-shock therapy, and you're more relaxed than you have been in weeks. All those tragic childhood memories have been magically wiped away, along with most of your personality.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
Of course, a similar chart could be made encompassing the history of science, but science moves on and discards what has been disproven. Theology, conversely,
behaves like a hoarder; it just can't let go of anything, and so the result is a mass of contradiction that requires true believers to develop a complex of denial and
blind faith to stem the perceived tide of existential dread.

If you do not think that advancing your scientific knowledge raises your consciousness WTF does? It has been stated my many great men that Darwin's revelation was the most conscience raising thing to happen to humankind. What alternative to science do you propose? You are sounding like a whack job character from the Celestine Prophecy. Do you take pictures of auras and sh#t too? The entire road you are heading down only opens your perspective to falsehoods produced by the creative mind. Physical chemicals that dup people into "seeing the light" or "feeling" god. They are works of fiction, even your own testimonies. While I agree you are a wonderful wordsmith and intelligent man, I am a little taken back by your foggy messages, confusing prose and lack of coherent argument. You are in effect, saying nothing. Oh and it's disproved, not disproven, at least in it's majority form (but we know you are far from the majority, lol)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 23, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
Uh, yeah, I think I'm being misunderstood here. My bad.

If you look at the link http://www.bibviz.com/ it's a nice graphical cross referencing of all the contradictions in the Bible. It says one thing here, then the opposite thing a few chapters later, over and over again. My comment was an attempt to ward off the expected riposte that "scientists have contradicted themselves too," that yesterday's scientific facts are today considered hogwash. The difference being that the scientific method has a built-in updating mechanism, like when plate tectonics came along the old "shrinking earth" theory was tossed out. So the "hoarder" comment applied to Christianity's bad habit of not updating its dogma and just leaving every old statement of inarguable divine revelation in there, whether it was consistent or not.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
Am I the only one who dislikes Porcupine Tree? It's so boring...

You can find better tunes in the subway..
[Click to View YouTube Video]

My daughter goes ape sh#t for Moon Hooch, bounces all over the place..
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Anyone thinking modern theology pertains to squabbling over the historical verity of bibilcal metaphors and parables has not looked into the subject at all. This is a jughead level of inquiry and blasting modern theology on the basis of fundamentalists believing Jesus walked on water, say, is engaging the materail at the level of a first grader. And hammering on folks who believe as much is arguing with someone lodged in a perspective, and you cannot change their minds because the issue is not about quantifiable truth. At all. You might as well be be arguing with White Supremists and Neo Nazis and so forth. Yo want to change these people, model something else, adn if they like what you have they'll come over. Otherwise, name one person who's mind yo have ever changed about gay mariage, religion fundamentalism, politics, and so forth. These are all emotionally charged issues hinging little on facts and figures.

Searchign for the underlying reasons WHY people believe as they do reveals interesting fruit which varies widely group to group. Some people believe reality can be fully "known" by way of objecive functioning. Some believe Jesus is coming. Others still believe in their dreams.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Sparrow

"One rain-wet sparrow on a rail fence
is better than ten angels in the Kingdom of Heaven."

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
Engaging the material on "a first-grade level" only begins when that material is advocated on that level to begin with, most egregiously as a matter of public policy. So, one can sit in enlightened judgement of the whole thing only if they think there's nothing to lose by just letting it slide.

Note column one, item one, and column two, item two:
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Not eating animals is a pathway to demonic possesion? Can you confirm Klimmer?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Engaging the material on "a first-grade level" only begins when that material is advocated on that level to begin with, most egregiously as a matter of public policy. So, one can sit in enlightened judgement of the whole thing only if they think there's nothing to lose by just letting it slide.


This is problematic for several reasons. One, it positions you in the position of a "myth buster," which is the position where we all just project our own sh#t out onto the world while accusing the other side or ignorance. This makes for an insufferable presentation. Look how much people dis and loath that dipshit squirt Sam Harris, a likely fate for all know-it-alls, because they simply don't.

Second, myth busting doesn't work very well as a educational tool. You don't change public policy or public thinking by attacking knucklehead advocates. Most things change through a policy of attraction, rather than promotion or through naked defamation and ridicule. People simply don't change their mind when you beat on them. They tend to hunker down. Change occurs when they are shown a better model that answers their underlying questions honestly and directly.

So I'm not sitting in enlightened judgement, rather looking at the scene in strictly practical and empirical terms. Shame, as a tactic for change, is not an especially strong path. We can all get caught up in blasting the moron for his fool ass beliefs, but people stuck in a perspective never change - till they do on their own - and in the meantime we writhe around in unconsciousness righteousness, stinking to high heaven.

So the question is - what would you have us do?

JL
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Science is about Cosmic Order. A very powerful tool to help understand how? and what? questions. But it is only half the picture. Only one side of the coin.

Religion/Faith is about Cosmic Purpose. A very powerful tool and personal experience to help understand Who? and why? questions. The other half of the coin.


If you only practition one and not the other then your view and understanding is incomplete. They are complimentary of one another. Both Science and Religion/Faith are very important compatible human endevours, and make us who we are: the body, mind, and spirit (soul).


Together you have Natural Philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_philosophy



John Muir, one of our heroes in the climbing world, first ascentionist, founder of the Sierra Club etc. can be best described as a Natural Philosopher. A modern Biblical scholar and science naturalist who woke us up to the truth of Conservation and doing right by people and the natural Earth that HaShem provided for us. Being the good stewards of Earth that G-d wants us to be.

Again, not only did John Muir wear many hats and his interests were far-ranging in the natural sciences and environmental conservation, mountaineering etc., but let's not forget perhaps one of the most important aspects of his life and the foundation of his World view . . . He was also a devout man of faith. He believed in GOD, The Trinity. This comes out crystal clear throughout his many writings. He also owned a plethora of copies of The Good Book, The Holy Bible. They know because they have his personal library.

He believed in HaShem and he did great science.




His run in with CA State Survey Geologist Josiah Whitney ...



"Geological studies and theories

Pursuit of his love of science, especially geology, often occupied his free time. Muir soon became convinced that glaciers had sculpted many of the features of the valley and surrounding area. This notion was in stark contradiction to the accepted contemporary theory, promulgated by Josiah Whitney (head of the California Geological Survey), which attributed the formation of the valley to a catastrophic earthquake. As Muir's ideas spread, Whitney would try to discredit Muir by branding him as an amateur. But Louis Agassiz, the premier geologist of the day, saw merit in Muir's ideas, and lauded him as "the first man I have ever found who has any adequate conception of glacial action."[23]

In 1871, Muir discovered an active alpine glacier below Merced Peak, which helped his theories gain acceptance. He was a highly productive writer and had many of his accounts and papers published as far away as New York. Muir's former professor at the University of Wisconsin, Ezra Carr, and his wife Jeanne, encouraged Muir to put his ideas into print. They also introduced Muir to notables such as Emerson, as well as leading scientists such as Louis Agassiz, John Tyndall, John Torrey, Clinton Hart Merriam, and Joseph LeConte.[citation needed]

A large earthquake centered near Lone Pine, California in Owens Valley (see 1872 Lone Pine earthquake) strongly shook occupants of Yosemite Valley in March 1872. The quake woke Muir in the early morning and he ran out of his cabin "both glad and frightened," exclaiming, "A noble earthquake!" Other valley settlers, who believed Whitney's ideas, feared that the quake was a prelude to a cataclysmic deepening of the valley. Muir had no such fear and promptly made a moonlit survey of new talus piles created by earthquake-triggered rock-slides. This event led more people to believe in Muir's ideas about the formation of the valley."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir








John Muir is sitting down at the summit of Mt. Rainier after guiding the group up the mountain ...



John Muir contemplating bold bouldering moves on Mt. Rubidoux before the "StoneMasters" ever were a twinkle in their parents eyes ...





Muir getting into it with Henry Thoreau I believe ...




We can do the same argument if not more with Sir Isaac Newton.



Why do atheists argue for only using half their brain? Half their being? There is so much more that you are missing.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 23, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Taking what Jesus said about how to be in the world and how to treat people is pretty cool. I'll take that stuff and it works pretty well as a philosophy. When people go all religion about it weird things happen.

Read the whole Bible through a few times as a teen and Jesus' calls to action seemed to be the most useful of the whole thing.

Like love and respect...
“These things I command you, that you love one another.” John 15:17

Being non-judgemental...
“Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” Luke 6:37-38

Honoring those around you regardless of their circumstances...
“Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.” Matthew 25:40

Being of service...
“If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.” John 13:13-14

Finding happiness through devotion to the sacredness of our common humanity...
“... she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.” Luke 7:37-38

“Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much.” Luke 7:47

And, being clear that talk is cheap and it doesn't really matter until the rubber meets the road and what I do ends up mattering to someone besides myself...
"Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:16

I wrote a paper about this a while back that gets into the neurology of these practices with references to the science. Interesting stuff.
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-mind/the_science_of_compassion.pdf

Oh, and there was this other guy, Albert Einstein, that said some cool stuff about the interface between science and mysticism.

"The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God."

"The religious geniuses of all times have been distinguished by this cosmic religious sense, which recognizes neither dogmas nor God made in man's image. Consequently there cannot be a church whose chief doctrines are based on the cosmic religious experience. It comes about, therefore, that we find precisely among the heretics of all ages men who were inspired by this highest religious experience; often they appeared to their contemporaries as atheists, but sometimes also as saints. Viewed from this angle, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are near to one another."


"You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own. But it is different from the religion of the naive man. For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears; a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for its father, a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation, however deeply it may be tinged with awe. But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Mark,

I agree. :-))

Good paper! TFPU.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 23, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
Klimmer, Love your stuff on Muir, the scientist mystic! I see Muir as someone experiencing the "cosmic religious sense" that Einstein mentions rather than a religious man in the typical definition. I get what you're saying, I think, in that believing in science and what sits (at least apparently) slightly outside of science is not mutually exclusive. There are mechanistic and vitalistic theories about what underlies life. Both may be present simultaneously.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
What's nice about science is that it's true whether not you believe in it..
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
So have all these people in this thread read Richard Dawkins and the Bible?

Who here has actually read Dawkins?

Cus I have read the Bible many times, as well as the Quaran and a few Taoist books. I am wondering if these people are even willing to read the other viewpoints. It seems to me based on the simple language and basic misunderstandings being applied to science could be easily fixed if you had read even one book on the subject..

And on the subject of changing people's mind, YES, yes I have changed someones mind before. In fact I changed my father's mind about ghey marriage. And I must hold myself up as a changed man as well. I was once a confirmed roman catholic who spent several days a week at the church and volunteered for anything I could. Devout as they come. Look at me now. Someone changed my mind so I know it's possible. Education and wisdom are a bitch when they blow up your world view, too bad people are not willing to educate themselves. There's something to be said about the indoctrination of children though, it took me years of sitting on the fence to finally break free of those chains of uncertainty. I would drift back to the church out of fear of being wrong or pray secretly just in case, but one day I finally committed and told my extremely religious family. "I am an atheist" and hearing it aloud really helped me come to grips with it. My mother cried as I held her. I am now in protective mode, trying to keep my daughter in sight at all times so they don't steal her off for a secret baptism...HAIL SATAN!! oh oh, I mean science, sorry...
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Well you got me Norton, I have only read the illusion, I need to buy the other ones eh?
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
Oh I have watched so many...there's still so many more..I love the debates...
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
I guess I should have said "read and understood Richard's arguments"

I will admit I can't remember every point from his most recent book, but I did understand it and agree with everything while reading it. My soul just can't remember that much at one time.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 23, 2013 - 05:22pm PT

I was once a confirmed roman catholic who spent several days a week at the church and volunteered for anything I could. Devout as they come. Look at me now. Someone changed my mind so I know it's possible.

Oh Jeez! another fallen catholic was devot as they come till someone whispered the truth in his ear. Now hes out to tell all the spiritual people they're stupid and wrong. Well join the ranks
I think most of the haters here are ex-catholic. You already know norton, right? He's an ex-pope, He knows it all. You should get along just fine.

I'd like to here from a catholic who thinks that they are a Christian ?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
Is the Great Falling Away Already Underway?
11:02AM EST 12/27/2012 JENNIFER LECLAIRE
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/16365-is-the-great-falling-away-already-underway

http://www3.telus.net/thegoodnews/fallingaway.htm

To those that formally believed and have now fallen away rejecting G-d altogether, and have fallen into apostasy ... Don't do it. Turn back to HaShem.


2Thes.2 (KJV)
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 23, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
KLimmer, that "falling away" stuff has everything to do with the historical development of the early Christian church in Thessalonica in ~50 AD. It has nothing to do with the widespread decline of the endlessly bifurcated church's influence in the 21st century. It doesn't scare anyone anymore.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 23, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
Saw a bumper sticker once, it said:

"Radical agnostic - I don't know and you don't either."

Just remember to keep in mind that we're all just making this sh#t up, regardless of how passionate we are about it.
WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
Yep, .... you only believe your own sh!t.

A dog will eat his own sh!t .....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
Aug 23, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
KLimmer, that "falling away" stuff has everything to do with the historical development of the early Christian church in Thessalonica in ~50 AD. It has nothing to do with the widespread decline of the endlessly bifurcated church's influence in the 21st century. It doesn't scare anyone anymore.


Cintune,


Wrong. Note that the scripture quoted talks about the wicked one being revealed. That is the Anti-Christ. That hasn't happened yet. That happens in the last days of this dispensation. The message has several deep meanings, PaRDeS. But specifically to the last days just prior to Yeshua returning.



2Thes.2 (KJV)
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 23, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
Right, they were waiting for those last days in 50 AD.

That was the whole premise. It was right around the corner.

And they've been waiting for them ever since....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
Yes, some where. That's why he said don't let any man deceive you. That's why he told them its not going to happen until you see the Anti-Christ revealed. They were jumping the gun so to speak.

We know exactly what he will do. Lots of prophecy concerning all the wicked he does and very specifically. The 3rd Temple has to be built first too ...


The Temple Institute is getting ready to do so:

http://www.templeinstitute.org/
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 23, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
He also specifically said it would be within their lifetimes. It was all about that time and place. It didn't pan out, but the story was just so compelling that it kept going; the Energizer Bunny of Eschatology.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 23, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
A dog will eat his own sh!t .....

Good one, Werner! I owe you a (pick one - good beer, nice wine, fine cigar).
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Cintune I'm sorry but it appears to be over your head. You aren't even trying.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 23, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Matthew 23:36

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Matthew 24:34

Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Mark 13:30

And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:62

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Luke 21:32

But the end of all things is at hand. 1 Peter 4:7

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18

The Lord is at hand. Philippians 4:5

For the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. James 5:8

For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Hebrews 10:37

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Revelation 1:1

The time is at hand. Revelation 1:3


Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 23, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
The prophets were Jewish

Hi Klimmer...I hope you don't mind me overunning your context a bit...not all Old Testament prophets were Jews or "Jewish."

Moses and Ezekiel were Levites, Joshua was of the tribe of Ephriam, Elisha, the tribe of Issachar...

Biblical writings are indecisive about the heritage of Elijah, Jeremiah and some of the minor prophets...although the Midrash, rabbinical literature does comment on their tribal legacy.

...perhaps a moot point in this thread, but the Old Testament is quite discerning in delineating the tribe of Judah (Jews or Yehudim) from the other tribes of Israel. Christian and secular historians have muddied the distinction, using Jew, Hebrew and Israelite interchangeably.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 23, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
Cintune,

He also specifically said it would be within their lifetimes. It was all about that time and place. It didn't pan out,

Good pursuit! This helps us all.

I don't think ur keeping all your quotes in the proper text.. My understanding of "this generation" is the generation we're in when the signs (example: the falling away) happen.
So when we see a great falling away in the church, it will be in that generation that we see
"The Coming". We havent seen a great falling away yet. But I can sure see how there could be one. When we have SOO many different churches building up people's faith on false doctrine. That's why we need people like you to help dissect the Word. I love it! Keep it com'in
But remember it is a spiritual manual. And some things aren't seen with scales over ur eyes.
Everytime you read the bible, ask God for understanding. It will make a difference!!
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Aug 23, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
Why are self proclaimed atheists so universally hateful?

O.K. Norton, then i assume ignorance is all they ever see?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 23, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Why are self proclaimed atheists so universally hateful?

ignorance tends to piss them off pretty good
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 23, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
Why do so many of us have the tendency to be hateful?

Insisting on reason during discourse is not hateful and using hateful speech during discourse is not helpful. It alludes to the weakness of the argument by the the individual using hateful speech along with their lack of civility.

Atheism is another religion for which people use irrational arguments to justify their belief that there is no god. Because there is no objective proof for the existence of god does not translate to that there is proof for the absence of god. The only rational position for this conundrum is agnosticism because, though one may still have a personal faith that there is or is not a god, there is no proof pro or con. Faith is not proof!

But, then, I'm just makin' this sh#t up!
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:13am PT
The answer will have to come from Werner. He is the high master.

Hate is not necessary to protect others from harm. Hate promotes further harm, impairs our judgement, and impedes our focus on solving the problem. It also fails to include that people do evil out of their ignorance and suffering. Think of the "life giving sword" of bushido where a samurai may injure or kill for the purpose of preventing greater harm.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:17am PT
Don't sweat the atheists, they are non-believers, it is us pagans ya got to worry about; we enjoy our false gods!!!

You thumpers are freakin nutz...
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:37am PT
Ullllllrrrrrr!!!!

This heat and fair weather is intolerable, praise the spirits of the cold, dark and ski-able!

Get yerself all mended up for some deeply un-philosophical worshiping!

Powder Pagans, Klister Kommunicants, and Skating Sacramentarians unite!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:42am PT
^^^^ lots of really good posts!

But isn't hate an uprising emotion from some sortof input?

Thus isn't it "freewill" to speak it?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:46am PT
I'll believe in a supernatural being who gives a dåmn about people when it does something useful.

Here's a starter list:
-feed the hungry
-cure disease
-create/harness a benign energy source
-stop global warming
-remove ocean pollution
-cull greed, stupidity, & hatred
-transmute radioactive waste
-create an asteroid deflector

Fortunately, we have scientists working on a lot of these.



The way it should be, actually...

God doesn't do for humankind, that which they can do for themselves.

Why bring about a race of intelligent, free-will simians if a supreme being elects to spend eternity pampering, catering to every whim, cleaning up their messes and writing their poetry.

My dad used to yell "I'll be glad when you start taking hold!!"

God is saying that in a kinder, gentler way... :-)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:51am PT

Powder Pagans, Klister Kommunicants, and Skating Sacramentarians unite!

ICK!!!!!

All I got to say is, Tele-wankers are neither!

And that's not hate. That's love of the heat. Bring on climate change!
MisterE

climber
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:51am PT
I hate this mobius strip of posting that is religion/politics/race/sexism, but THIS post is simply not true:

Why are self proclaimed atheists so universally hateful?

My wife, Skip, Justthemaid to many of you, is one of the kindest, most thoughtful, honest and considerate people I have ever met, and she is an Atheist.

She is wholly a "self-proclaimed Atheist".

Just another reason not to judge people at all, and especially "across the board".

You should know better, Rick Sumner.

Husband, Erik Wolfe
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:53am PT
^^^ That was Beutiful Jennie!!




I agrEE, Mr.EE
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:01am PT
My experience, personally and observing others, has been that morals and ethics, particularly the traits of kindness and compassion, come more commonly and more powerfully from ones' philosophy rather than ones' religion.

Gotta make a plug for Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. A most compelling musing on philosophy as a moral compass.

Erik, your stand for your wife is beautiful!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:17am PT


My experience in life has been that morals and ethics, particularly the traits of kindness and compassion, come more commonly and more powerfully from ones' philosophy rather than ones' religion.

Well if ur categorizing morals and ethics a part of religion, and kindness and compassion as philosophy. Then ur right! Is that what you meant to write?

If you want to be right, keep stopping to write.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:20am PT
Aug 23, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Matthew 23:36

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Matthew 24:34

Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Mark 13:30

And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:62

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Luke 21:32

But the end of all things is at hand. 1 Peter 4:7

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18

The Lord is at hand. Philippians 4:5

For the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. James 5:8

For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Hebrews 10:37

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Revelation 1:1

The time is at hand. Revelation 1:3


Yes, anyone can quote scripture out of context. The Kingdom or the Lord is at hand means now for you. G-d's Kingdom is within you if you invite Yeshua into your life. Our bodies are the Temple of G-d. Let him in and clean house and get it back in order. He can do that now if you let him.

Recall, what Yeshua said concerning the blooming of the figtree. That is the re-birth of Israel. From there take the age of man, the high average age that G-d set as a limit, of 120 years: 1948 + 120 = 2068AD. He said all these things would come to pass for this last generation. He was speaking about the future prophetically, after Israel is re-established. That has now happened. As far as prophecy goes we are in the last generation. Pat yourself on the back. We're in it. We've already gone over this. I'm not date setting just showing it can be from now until possibly 2068AD. Like I said, Newton calculated 2060AD, not bad.

The 3rd Temple has to be built. Perhaps you want to contribute money$$$ to the cause? Actually don't. It's a Temple that will be built, but not by HaShem's command. Man does it. And then Lucifer through the Anti-Christ desecrates it.

The 4th Temple, Yeshua will build for the 1000 year Messianic millennium.
http://www.templeinstitute.org/
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:23am PT
That was very smooth Jim!
I wipe, without pointing the finger
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:24am PT
Yo Klimmer, what do you have to say about the last uphill on the tracks at Hollyburn?

Now that skied well is well in the realms of the gods...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:35am PT
Todd,


Probably. But then I haven't skied it. I hate to admit that I haven't skied in BC yet or the Canadian Rockies.

(I have paraglided up there in the summer though. Watched a couple of bears making love in the LZ at Whistler. Had to wait to land.)

Some day I want to experience that bottomless dry powder with mask and snorkel. It will be heavenly ;-)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:39am PT

Religion should be a choice, and the more we segregate religious institutions from any real power, the better.

Didn't Lucifer say this at one time?

What is the power of religion. But to come together from one voice to become a multitude
of Love. Of one mind. And one voice. And to prove their point by a vote.

So what are you fore or against?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:43am PT
The divine or heavenly is what you create and experience...

... if you need props for that, that's cool but don't expect others to grok it. I worship the pagan within you all.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:55am PT
The divine or heavenly is what you create and experience...

Or, what you experience from The Creator IS Heavenly and Divine!

... if you need props for that, that's cool but don't expect others to grok it. I worship the Holyness within you all.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 24, 2013 - 08:00am PT
The Kingdom or the Lord is at hand means now for you.

When the villagers saw no wolf they sternly said, "Save your frightened song for when there is really something wrong! Don't cry 'wolf' when there is no wolf!" -Aesop

Epidemic terror of the end of the world has several times spread over the nations. The most remarkable was that which seized Christendom about the middle of the tenth century. Numbers of fanatics appeared in France, Germany, and Italy at that time, preaching that the thousand years prophesied in the Apocalypse as the term of the world's duration, were about to expire, and that the Son of Man would appear in the clouds to judge the godly and the ungodly. The delusion appears to have been discouraged by the church, but it nevertheless spread rapidly among the people.
The scene of the last judgment was expected to be at Jerusalem. In the year 999, the number of pilgrims proceeding eastward, to await the coming of the Lord in that city, was so great that they were compared to a desolating army. Most of them sold their goods and possessions before they quitted Europe, and lived upon the proceeds in the Holy Land. Buildings of every sort were suffered to fall into ruins. It was thought useless to repair them, when the end of the world was so near. Many noble edifices were deliberately pulled down. Even churches, usually so well maintained, shared the general neglect. Knights, citizens, and serfs, traveled eastwards in company, taking with them their wives and children, singing psalms as they went, and looking with fearful eyes upon the sky, which they expected each minute to open, to let the Son of God descend in his glory.
During the thousandth year the number of pilgrims increased. Most of them were smitten with terror as with a plague. Every phenomenon of nature filled them with alarm. A thunder-storm sent them all upon their knees in mid-march. It was the opinion that thunder was the voice of God, announcing the day of judgment. Numbers expected the earth to open, and give up its dead at the sound. Every meteor in the sky seen at Jerusalem brought the whole Christian population into the streets to weep and pray. Fanatic preachers kept up the flame of terror. Every shooting star furnished occasion for a sermon, in which the sublimity of the approaching judgment was the principal topic. - Charles Mackay "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds"(1841)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 24, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
For those of us addicted on calling out ignorance as we see it, why not take a run at Colorado state Sen. Vicki Marble (R-Fort Collins), who "Links Poverty To Fried Chicken, BBQ."

Oh yeah.

And Todd said: "The divine or heavenly is what you create and experience."

Kindly explain what you mean by "divine," above and beyond a biblical description of a grandfather God etc., and also include what experinces you have had to arrive at that opinion. Curious . . .

JL
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 24, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
JL, the "divine or heavenly" is what floats your boat, or perhaps your essence. You'll know when you get it, purely personal, though we all make efforts to describe it...

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 24, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
JL, the "divine or heavenly" is what floats your boat, or perhaps your essence. You'll know when you get it, purely personal, though we all make efforts to describe it...
-
I'd be especially curious how you arrived at this belief, and how you feel you "created it."

In my experience there are both personal and impersonal elements involved - i.e., heart and mind. Describing it is a task, as you say.

JL
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Aug 24, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
While the question is qualified by the OP as being facetious, it has been posed, is loaded and dependent on stated and implied assumptions and interpretations.
Does everyone really hate Christianity?
Is there even an agreed definition of the term Christianity?

For example; one could ascribe to the message of the beatitudes, hold to the values of tolerance and charity espoused by the human know as Jesus of Nazareth but balk at the concepts of an immaculate conception, virgin birth, resurrection and eternal life.

Would this person be a Christian or a non believer doomed to eternal hellfire?

Personally, I think too many Christians give Christianity a bad name.

PB (Apostate and devout agnostic)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 24, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
For example; one could ascribe to the message of the beatitudes, hold to the values of tolerance and charity espoused by the human know as Jesus of Nazareth but balk at the concept of an immaculate conception, resurrection and eternal life.


For starters, I'd wager that few on this list know what the hell "The Beatitudes" are without Googling the word. But what you just said is IMO the fairly standard position of enlightened Christians, who never confused "miracles" with the heart of the message, nor needed the former vouchsafed to "prove" the merits of their path.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 24, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Certainly the Dunning Kruger effect is alive and well on this thread as much if not more than on the climate change thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

But beware internet forum rule #666:

After a third referencing of the Dunning-Kruger effect on any given thread, it then becomes a sign of the Dunning-Kruger effect. ;)

.....

I'd waager that few on this...

...thread have built more than 20 categorically different kinds of electronic circuits... from filters to integrators to resonators to memories to amplifiers and differencers... as this experience is important for its service in brain science as a valuable stepping stone (a) to modeling actual theories that mentality in all its dimensions is what brain does; and (b) to intuitively comprehending same in this still largely superstitious day and age when direct evidence, esp re sentience, is little to nonexistent.

.....

what you just said is IMO the fairly standard position of enlightened Christians, who never confused "miracles" with the heart of the message

Again, such a copout. :(

Hey, perhaps there wouldn't be all these religious, religiogenic problems were more (a great deal more) of these so-called "enlightened Christians" to require of themselves to come forth to explain to their fundamentalist brothren that the supernatural elements of their Testaments were myth or metaphor (at best). Starting with the mythical birth of baby God Jesus, the myth of the Fall (as explanation of evil and tragedy and death), the myth of resurrection for individual members of the species.


But where are they?

Christendom isn't nearly as reformed or enlightened as some would have us believe.

.....

re: "enlightened Christians"

Where's the "enlightened Christian" effort... or "enlightened Christian" expression... in today's American culture to come to terms with human mortality, with the natural fact that there is no "special dispensation" for Man vis a vis the animals? with the natural fact that bad things happen in our world not because of some mythical Original Sin or Fall but because of the conditions of the environment (the playing field) and the nature of the living things (the competing organisms) and their combined interaction? with the evidence and reasonable conclusion that our species is on its own on this pale blue dot in space, that it's flying solo, that safeguarding the planet is up to us, making wise judgments is up to us, that there is no absolute moral authority overseeing us in a for-real, literal sense? Last but not least, where is the effort or expression of these "enlightened Christians" to adapt to science, to science education (which is different), and to The Scientific Story (as a modern worldview, which is different still)? Where is it? the effort? the expression? In American culture? In American government? In this thread? We all know the answer, I think, don't we? More of a rhetorical question, probably.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 24, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Fruitcake, back at it once more: . . . To modeling actual theories that mentality in all its dimensions is what brain does.


That's an "actual" theory as opposed to a "imagined" or "cyber" throry, maybe, LOL.

As Jan said on the other thread, we have to have some powerful direct experiences to ever see past our own mentlal constructs, and Frity's is the old "broadcast" electronic machine model, which accounts for processing, but overeaches it's limits in claiming sentience is what the brains does. As one neuroscientist mentioned, that's like saying gravity is what an avalanche "does." That will fly in the scientific community. Maybe not . . .

Fruity, has it ever occured to you that consciousness is neither a function nor output in the normal sense of the word?

I'm reminded of something my dad (an MD) once told me - that no matter what a patient will present, a specialist will see the problem in light of their own learning. Meaning the asmatic seeking council from the protologist will be diagnosed with an ailing ass. Ergo Fruity sees "mind" as a kind of grand erector set, with special properties.

Try talking him past it . . .

And Fruity, you might try eating somethng beyond groudn glass. It's making you cantankerous. A Christian honoring the values of tolerance and charity espoused by the human know as Jesus of Nazareth would not try and school fundamantalists, rather they'd model another kind of being and if the fundy wanted it, they can have it. That's the tollerance part. We try and tollerate you in this same vein.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 08:55pm PT

Starting with the mythical birth of baby God Jesus, the myth of the Fall (as explanation of evil and tragedy and death), the myth of resurrection for individual members of the species.

Myth? Sure it's easy not to listen or believe someone's firsthand account of a story. Like when Michael Reardon climbed 100 rtes in a day at Josh. Do you believe it? I can understand
how you might not believe all the firsthand eyewitness testimonies of the miracles pertaining to the life of Jesus. But for you to say what Jesus did is a lie. Is your attempt to bring Him down to ur level, a mortal man. This is what the Muslims did. And take a look at the fruits of their labor's. And it still isn't for the Jews of isreal to believe in the Risen Christ. And the look at the persecution they've lived under over the last 2k yrs. Without the shedding of Jesus' blood
as a man, and returning in a immortal body. There is no Christiandom, as you say. From ALL the eyewitness accounts written in the bible, and the proclamation by Jesus to be the one and only God of the universe. How could anybody not sincerely ask Jesus if He is True? All's He asks for is some communication between you and Him. Ask, and He shall answer! Knock, and He will open up! This is where myth turns to pavement.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 24, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
Myth?

Touché.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 24, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
And it still isn't for the Jews of isreal to believe in the Risen Christ. And the look at the persecution they've lived under over the last 2k yrs.


Blue,

That isn't exactly correct. The first believers were Jews-Hebrews. There were tens of thousands of believers, Jews-Hebrews, even from the High Priests, after the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem when HaShem's Holy Spirit moved on the early Messianic Judaic community and many came to know Yeshua HaMashiach. Throughout time since then, over the last 2000 years, there have been Jews-Hebrews that have come to know Yeshua HaMashiach. But often they have had to hide their faith because of persecution, from their own, or even Christendom.

There is a veil over the spiritual eyes of Israel as HaShem said there would be, however, it is a partial veil not a complete veil. There are Jewish-Hebrew believers. There always has been.

But true, the Gentiles predominate. But there is coming a time when the fullness of the time of the Gentiles will be complete, and HaShem will pour his spirit onto the nation of Israel, and the nation will be saved. It's coming. Lots of prophecy concerning this.

"The first will be last, and the last will be first."

Baruch HaShem.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
^^^Amen.
You are right in the above mentioned.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 24, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
Really, this says a great deal of it right here:
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
Doesn't say sh!t!

You don't have any clue to freedom and bondage.

You know why?

Because you are so deeply in bondage you think you're free ......
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 25, 2013 - 12:13am PT

Literally

Literally, Yes! There were many scribes and writers following Jesus around writing down every word. It's called the bible. Have you read it?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 25, 2013 - 12:23am PT
^^^ so No, u've never read it?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Aug 25, 2013 - 12:33am PT
Why does everyone hate Christianity so much?
Because Tebow sucks!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 25, 2013 - 12:46am PT
^^^^ thanks for ur openness!

That's a problem with having so many religions, each one only points toward a certain part. When we really must look at the whole picture before we form an opinion.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 25, 2013 - 01:48am PT
Wow^^ thanks, but I have to say urs sounds like a really sad story to me. I just don't see what any of that has to do with Jesus. I admit I only went to a mass once, and I didn't feel the spirit of love there.
But I have been to numerous Protestant, Pentecostal, Babtist, Non, type church services, meetings, get togethers, BBQs, weddings. And in all this I have met many who are excited about getting together and sharing and praising how the Lord is working thru their lives. When people gather and are uninhibited to discuss a recent sermon, and how it reflects their own lives. The Spirit Truely intercedes.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 25, 2013 - 02:44am PT
All of you are wrong.

You know little of the true nature of reality.

Neither do I.

Welcome to the machine.

We are accidental god machines.

Buuurrrp.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 25, 2013 - 02:55am PT
while we are living in this life, why the speculation on the next one?

it will either be there, or it won't,



MH2

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:08am PT
while we are living in this life, why the speculation on the next one?

it will either be there, or it won't,



I hope it's like that 10 billion plus years I already spent not alive. An All Inclusive deal.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 26, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
Bush was part of the religious hysteria..Maybe Romney too...? I know too many Christians who were brain washed into thinking Clinton was the next Satan...All the conservatives need to do is mention Satan in the same sentence with any Democrat and the Christians come running to the polls like scared sheep...
WBraun

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
“When you determine where you stand, the colour will return to your world.”.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 26, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Few here in America will push anything, from religion to juju, unless money and power are involved. The aging, white, straight, anglo folk are making a lot of racket these days, and what is mostly grievous to that demo is the fact that a big white dude is no longer the archetype authority figure. You think the radical Muslims would be pushing for a religious state if they couldn't take power as well? Or the old Mullahs in Iran?

Certain people want to be boss. Religion is oftentimes just a pretext. The Crusades hinged entirely on power and aggression.

People can get crazy over this stuff and it's understandable others provide some blowback. As radical as the right-white-knights get with their sham spirituality, atheists must counter for balance. It works with Newtonial precision. And if it doesn't, war breaks out.

That's some ugly sh#t when you can see it plainly.

JL
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 27, 2013 - 12:47am PT
Apes throw their sh#t. They can throw a lot of it and they can throw it a long ways.

We've evolved to the point we can invent our own sh#t, a lot of it and in great variety. We become convinced that our sh#t is better than everybody else's sh#t and that they're stupid or evil if they don't believe our shift is the best sh#t.

We are so creative that we deceive ourselves into believing that we didn't just make this sh#t up and it is actually reality.

There's a guy who once said that by their fruits we shall know them. We could make up less sh#t and just make a point of showing up and being useful.

PS I just made this sh#t up.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 12:59am PT
We could make up less sh#t and just make a point of showing up and being useful.

Great post Mark! How about making up nothing at all. And just listen to the music and be useful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O40c5vcUKpw&list=PLF_eEPSffs3Fk07Zm7nlfMksBPHm23wpd
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:01am PT
Largo, Now that's an inspiring and joyous philosophy!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:11am PT
A more unerring thread title might be...

Why Does Everyone Project Their Own Foibles and Frailties Onto Everyone Else...so much?

Some of us imagine all sorts of spooks in an empty house...others conceive goblins in the well-lit manor.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 10:51am PT

I just wander around, Le Grande Tourist :-D


Ha-ha-ha!

....and me? ... I'm the little piglet splashing...splattering mud on everyone when it rains! :-)
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:10am PT
I don't hate christianity, nor any other religion. I do hate when people try to force their religious dogma onto others.
As a non-christian I'm no more willing to live under christian law than a christian is willing to live under islamic law.


I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. That is the only way to guarantee freedom for all beliefs. Which leads me to.....

Praise be to his noodly appendages-http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/26/pastafarian-student-allowed-to-wear-pasta-strainer-on-head-for-drivers-license-photo/
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:23am PT
From Twitter.


I'm a Agnostic atheist. I try not to hate anyone.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:40am PT
It is also of interest to note that Jesus never wrote a single word - most people of the day (aside from the learned scholars) were, in fact, illiterate - they could neither read nor write. He very likely was illiterate himself - not withstanding the whole elders of the temple story.



Forgive me, J Moritz...the fact that nothing Jesus wrote has come down to us doesn't denote he never wrote anything. Of all writing carried out by ancients, how much is extant today?

Do we really know the extent of literacy in Judea and Galilee in Jesus' time?

Jesus writing in the dirt in the Elders of the Temple story is not the only manifestation of his literacy.

Luke 4:16 says, "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read." There are over a dozen instances in the gospels where Jesus says..."Have you not read...? That is strong connotation he did ...and is confirmed by his reading from Isaiah.

Of course, if one puts no value in writings of biblical canon...Jesus can be modeled to suit one's wishes. To those who put a large measure of credibility in the gospels, I believe there is strong implication he could read and write.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:47am PT
I'm a Agnostic atheist. I try not to hate anyone.

No such thing, try again...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:50am PT
Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact.

I'm open to the idea of a higher power (it would be nice), but I have seen no evidence of it. And when people do claim to have evidence or at least a path to belief for me it always breaks down into fallacy. It's surprising to me how many atheists are dyed in the wool. You would think a world view based on reason would lead more people to admit you don't know what you don't know.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:52am PT
Norton, Is the last step in your opinion to be only an atheist or only an agnostic. To be an agnostic is to accept that you don't know. IMHO, atheism is just another religious postion that has no convincing scientific evidence/proof.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
I will post this here as not to get screamed at in another thread. You all constantly get on me here anyway so what'll be the difference?

Someone went missing on the last evening of the 9th of Av (July 16th, 2013), on the Jewish calendar. In Judaism many, many bad wicked things happen on this day in history over and over again. It is a very sad, sad and somber day in Judaism. The Temple was destroyed 2X. Murder of innocent people. Holocausts etc. It seems that a certain being doesn't like this day, and all kinds of really bad things happen including taking the lives of innocent people, through the act of murder.

I wonder if this kind strong man was Jewish? He doesn't have to be. Bad stuff can happen to anyone at anytime, but it does indeed often happen, throughout history, on this day over and over again. He has a common last name that is often taken by Jewish families. I wonder if he has Jewish ancestry? I wonder?


In Judaism, Tisha B'Av is like Friday the 13th.


Tisha B'Av (9th of Av), July 15 - July 16, 2013:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisha_B'Av

*Tisha B'Av (help·info) (lit. "the ninth of Av") (Hebrew: תשעה באב‎ or ט׳ באב), is an annual fast day in Judaism which commemorates the destruction of the First and Second Temples in Jerusalem.

*And the subsequent exile of the Jews from the Land of Israel.

*The day also commemorates other tragedies which occurred on the same day, including the Roman massacre of over 100,000 Jews at Betar in 132 CE.

*Instituted by the rabbis of 2nd-century Palestine, Tisha B'Av is regarded as the saddest day in the Jewish calendar and a day which is destined for tragedy.[1][2]


It is a day of rememberance and mourning.

I feel very sorry for his family, his friends, and all his loved ones. I feel sorry for the ST community because we miss him too. We've all been pulled into his story. A fellow teacher, climber, a brother of the rope has gone missing.



What happened on the Ninth of Av?
A Historical Overview
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/946703/jewish/What-happened-on-the-Ninth-of-Av.htm



G-d doesn't do this. An imposter who wants to be G-d, thinks of himself as G-d does this evil, and he works his evil through mankind.







Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
Norton, I am not an on the fence agnostic. I am very certain of my position (remember, though, my position hat everyone just makes sh#t up, including me). I am a lover of science. Reductionism and mechanism are very useful and even beautiful ways of looking at and understanding the world.

There is a lot about the sciences that is pretty dialed in. Those arguing against the validiity of geology, basic evolutionary theory, and other basic sciences sound silly. But, if you follow the sciences and have a science/observational/neutral position out will be aware of the "fuzzy" edges of science, especially in the realms of small particle physics and cosmology. We haven't even worked out the details concerning the presence of life, where what we know about mechanism doesn't account for all that we observe.

So, my position is that there is enough unknown that the only scientific position is to be agnostic (and, I'm not including in the consideration an anthropomorphic personal god).

But, because I know that everybody just makes sh#t up, I don't expect anybody to believe what I believe. I just care about how people show up.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
So, my position is that there is enough unknown that the only scientific position is to be agnostic (and, I'm not including in the consideration an anthropomorphic personal god).

well isn't that a bit disingenuous on a public forum in America where Christians dominate and 90% of them and their conversations... focus on an anthropomorphic personal god.

If you're atheistic - an atheist - concerning an anthropomorphic personal God, you should sac up and say so.

To be an agnostic is to accept that you don't know.

Really, you're telling us you're agnostic regarding the claim that Apollo is the Son of Zeus, that Zeus and Apollo threw lightning bolts to teach anthropes a lesson? you're agnostic concerning the origin of Aphrodite from sea foam?

Really, you're "agnostic" concerning the claim that Elijah departed Earth in a chariot of fire on a whirlwind?

Maybe branch out, read more world theologies??
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
It always kind of bothered me when people respond to agnostics with claims that they live an examined existence, or aren't courageous enough to make a decision. I've thought about it plenty and I think it takes courage to accept uncertainty.

I just recently came across the term Agnostic atheist and it helps clarify what I believe (mostly because I have to explain it) better than agnostic which denotes being right on the middle of the fence to some people, or atheist which denotes a certainty without proof.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
United States...
25th in math
17th in science

.....

I've thought about it plenty and I think it takes courage to accept uncertainty.

Really, the right path - as in wise path - is to accept uncertainty concerning the ancient claim that Jesus of Nazereth met a madman (named Legion), commanded demons to leave his body, upon which they did, only to enter pigs nearby which promptly ran into a nearby lake to drown.

It's courageous for me to remain agnostic about that? Really?
Mad69Dog

Mountain climber
Superior, CO
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
"But, because I know that everybody just makes sh#t up, I don't expect anybody to believe what I believe. I just care about how people show up."

Be sure to include scientists in the group that 'just makes sh#t up'.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:34pm PT

Raven

"One rain-wet raven on a rail fence
is better than ten angels in the Kingdom of Heaven."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
and what, exactly, do Atheists "make up"?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Incidentally,

there is no "scientific position" on whether Jesus rose from the dead on the third day for the same reason there is none on...

whether Athena was the first to give Athens an olive tree.

Just how many world theologies or theisms have you studied side by side to give yourself a broad and deep perspective? On "god" concepts?

.....

Of course what vies right up top with America's scientific illiteracy is its theological illiteracy. And Abrahamic religious leadership - Christian flavor - loves it.. as it thrives on it.

.....

re: "certainty without proof"

Once again, how convenient for religions, to have all this pop phraseology, laid down over centuries, to work with.

You can't distinguish between reasonable certainty and absolute certainty? You can't do that with religion though no doubt you do with all other areas of your life? You can't challenge yourself a bit harder?

Well, those people who aren't reasonably certain...

that Athena really didn't turn a girl into a spider in the actual history of the world are not people this citizen would want to see run for political office or teach high school science. But that's just me.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:40am PT
It is also of interest to note that Jesus never wrote a single word - most people of the day (aside from the learned scholars) were, in fact, illiterate - they could neither read nor write. He very likely was illiterate himself - not withstanding the whole elders of the temple story.



Forgive me, J Moritz...the fact that nothing Jesus wrote has come down to us doesn't denote he never wrote anything. Of all writing carried out by ancients, how much is extant today?

Do we really know the extent of literacy in Judea and Galilee in Jesus' time?

Jesus writing in the dirt in the Elders of the Temple story is not the only manifestation of his literacy.

Luke 4:16 says, "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read." There are over a dozen instances in the gospels where Jesus says..."Have you not read...? That is strong connotation he did ...and is confirmed by his reading from Isaiah.

Of course, if one puts no value in writings of biblical canon...Jesus can be modeled to suit one's wishes. To those who put a large measure of credibility in the gospels, I believe there is strong implication he could read and write.

Jenni,

Ding. Ding. Ding! Right on!

The Jews were very well read and learned to write even if they made furniture or worked the fields. Judaism has thousands of years of high value on education.

Yeshua would be fluent in Aramic, Hebrew, and perhaps knew Greek also. He was very well read. He could quote scripture at the drop of the hat and put the high priests and scribes in their place.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 27, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Really, the right path is to accept uncertainty concerning the ancient claim that Jesus of Nazereth met a madman (named Legion), commanded demons to leave his body, upon which they did, only to enter pigs nearby which promptly ran into a nearby lake to drown.

It's courageous for me to remain agnostic about that? Really?

I'm agnostic atheistic about the possibility of there being some form of higher power. Details of one religion or another just influence how I think about to what degree of truth that religion may hold. Is that story supposed to be literal or just an analogy?

But when a religious belief influences someone to override what IMO should be more universal truths of right and wrong I have a problem with it (at least when it effects other people).
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Norton, looks like were not on the right path, according to the majority opinion around here. Looks like they want us "agnostic" on such issues as exorcism, purgatory and libido... oops, I mean limbo. We better get with the program or we might get booted.

.....

Is that story supposed to be literal or just an analogy?

I'm sure you pay some attn to American politics. Despite what Dingo says, good majorities from many demos believe it all hook line and sinker. Of course they do, they're all over YT, even all over this site. Why isn't that clear enough?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 27, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
fet,

in no way was I criticizing your definition of agnosticism or your personal stance, I get it

I was, wrongly, under the impression that you are an atheist, sorry for the misunderstanding
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 27, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
Frutose....

I think the Agnosticism they are subscribing to is simply recognizing the remote possibility that maybe maybe there might be a creator of some sort

nuttin wrong with that, I just can't go there myself
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
nuttin wrong with that

Well sure if you don't mind "failure to communicate." And the tragedies it often leads to.

We're back to dangling deities (cf: dangling participles) again. What's wrong with being clear about what god concept you're atheistic or agnostic about. Is it really THAT much harder to be a bit more clear?

It's bs. In large part probably arising from en mass scientific and theological illiteracies, but nonetheless.

By and large, when conservatives of this country speak of "God" they mean Jehovah, the God of Moses - taken literally as an anthropomorphic personal God (with consciousness, thoughts and feelings etc, for those who don't know what that means) as conceived traditionally. It IS weak in this modern day and age not to distinguish the many and various god concepts in the hope of doing better, improving communications for starters.

Sure I too am "agnostic" concerning the First Cause or Higher Power behind the big bang, or behind the mystery of why there is something instead of nothing... but as I know you know, this is far far far far afield of the god concept that my mom and grandma, along with the bulk of others, were raised to believe in out out of their bibles.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Separation of church and state is good thing. But make no mistake it leaves in its wake a nasty side effect. That being theological illiteracy.

Because of separation of church and state policy, kids in the past grew up to graduate knowing next to nothing about world theologies, how many there are, their narratives, claims to truth, crazy iron age superstitions, etc. Most became adults with zero life experience in belief systems re "ultimate concerns" apart from their own parochial version.

Today not just here in America but the whole world is paying a price for it. For en mass theological illiteracy. Put differently, for superstitious supernatural theological nonsense. For the divisiveness it engenders.

What makes it all the harder: how many serious even devout Christians in America even know what "theology" is?! That the case, how can one even have a discussion above 8th grade level on basic concepts? Next to impossible. This is just what we see around here, and moreover, just the way the conservative religious leadership in America likes it, how convenient.

There is hope though. Now because of the internet and the info age, kids are self-starters in educating themselves more than ever. And in my estimate, not all of course but a huge slice of them are going to apply this, as never before, in the areas where philosophy and science and religion intersect and they are going to figure things out, see through the nonsense, and help take the country and the whole world to a better place.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 27, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
Because of separation of church and state policy, kids in the past grew up to graduate knowing next to nothing about world theologies, how many there are, their narratives, claims to truth, crazy iron age superstitions, etc. Most became adults with zero life experience in belief systems re "ultimate concerns" apart from their own parochial version.

I'm curious how long ago that was, HFCS. My public K-12 education (from 1956-1969) included education in virtually all of the main religions in the world's geographical areas, both as history and geography. Of course, there were neither value judgments nor opinions about any religion's (including but not limited to atheism's) truth or falsity. The education simply reflected the truth that religion explains some elements of human behavior.

John
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 27, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
There is hope though

indeed there is hope!

just read today that broadband internet access is up to around 70% coverage in the US

ironic that the poorest Americans, without internet, are also those the least educated and also the most Theistic

separation? hardly.....the IRS will not go after the churches' tax exempt status, in spite of them openly taking political positions from the pulpit

billions of dollars in badly needed Treasury revenue escaping...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
An intresting inquiry is to querry what the atheist "knows" to disbelieve. Usually it's the grandfather God of bible school, all the way up to a consciousness - impersonal or otherwise - some suggest is part of the fabric of reality. Most "know" this is bunkum for the lack of physical proof, or measurable or even tellable effects on the physical world. And when your belief is that realiy, in it's entirely, is physical, then "God" in any shape or non-shape is a non-starter. He's either gonna show his face in person or in the data, and since he ain't so far - end of story.

People in the contemplative arts like meditation sometimes come to encounter ungraspable "things" but these are not knowable in the normal sense of the term because what is encountered is boundless and borderless - for lack of better words. Knowing is in my experinence a matter of being able to evaluate and quantify discrete bit of reality, whereas language and even physics seems to break down as we approach the infinite/unborn/borderless.

Because trying to label such phenomenon or non-things is not the point, and is impossible anyhow, in my tradtion (Zen) nobody bothers. And so you hear things like: If you meet God in meditation, kill him because He's standing in the way of you going further. This does not mean you're setting out to kill God, but rather, whatever you're mind had formulated as "God," is not, since you can only formulate or narrow focus on a discrete "thing." So let go of your formulation - and carry on.

But you can perhaps appreciate that we might wink at someone claiming to "know" there are no "Gods" out there, since God is by nature ungraspable.

Of course this is a shoddy explanation, but that's no fault of the unborn and the ungraaspable, rather mine.

JL
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
U.S. adults are second in the world, behind Sweden, in science literacy.

Not cause to boast, however, only 28% of U.S. adults are considered "science literate". The rest of the world lags farther behind.

Among 15 year olds, the U.S. rates 14th in science literacy. Disadvantaged students, especially those in inner city high schools, bring down the average considerably. Learning scientific concepts is more difficult in environments rife with tension and anxiety.

Averaging white 15 year olds only, the U.S. would rate 5th in science literacy...

The nations who exceed the U.S. in science education have less anger and apprehension in their schools. And their administrators do a better job of sequencing material to ensure students are familiar with prime fundamentals before they are exposed to more technical concepts.

The U.S. uses the largest textbooks with the most topics. Other nations use smaller books, concentrating on primary ideas...so when they get to high school they can understand the forces driving "plate tectonics" while kids without a sound grounding scientific fundementals are lost and try to "get by" with memorization.

I would bet Klimmer agrees his earth science kids would cruise through the material if they came to the class with a firm understanding of very basic fundamentals.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 27, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Among 15 year olds, the U.S. rates 14th in science literacy. Disadvantaged students, especially those in inner city high schools, bring down the average considerably.

Undoubtedly true. But also true in other countries.

There are problems everywhere, and to say that the US would have scored higher if only 15-yr-olds in the bottom quintile were removed is to beg the question of how any other country's score would change if a similar removal of lowest scorers were done.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Heaven: A fool's paradise

Why do the majority of Britons still believe in life after death? Heaven isn't a wonderful place filled with light – it is a pernicious construct with a short and bloody history, writes Johann Hari.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/heaven-a-fools-paradise-1949399.html

But of course "your" "atoms" "will" "be" "recirculated"...
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
pity, as she was such a good conversationalist .........


I agree with Norton...Lois is a great conversationalist and its a pity a few insist on barring her from participation.

Most of the members deactivated in the "Great Purge" of spring 2012 have returned in either palpable or cloaked identities. Why bar the individual who added most to serious discussion and fashioned the least vitriol?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 27, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Jennie,

My own experience tracks yours quite well. I sometimes feel that modern K-12 education simply produces dilettantes, rather than possessors of a foundation of knowledge on which to build. The sequencing of math and science classes often mystifies me.

Fortunately, a local science professor felt the same way and started a charter school here around 2000. That school did several things differently from the normal public schools:

1. It required that each student participate in at least one musical group (orchestra, chorus, etc.) and take music theory as part of the curriculum;

2. It taught biology to seniors only, after they'd had chemistry and physics;

3. It required two years of Latin, and then two years of another foreign language, in addition to four years of English;

4. It re-sequenced math so that each class formed a foundation for succeeding classes. (This contrasts with the Algebra I - geometry - Algebra II sequence, where geometry has little relation to what comes before or since. In the charter's case, geometry included transcendental functions, for example, rather than waiting an extra year to deal with them in trigonometry);

5. Grades reflected mastery of material only. It didn't matter how hard you worked. This took a lot of conditioning for students (and their parents) who thought that if you worked hard enough, you should get an "A" in any class.

There were, of course, many other differences. My daughter was in the second graduating class. Despite their "terrible" GPA's, they had no trouble getting into excellent colleges and universities, and are already doing amazing things.

Sad to say, now that their achievement is well-documented, a different type of student enrolls there. This changes the character of the school. The early pupils didn't conform to any particular stereotype, but also didn't particularly engage in typical obsessive-compulsive behavior. It was a school for free thinkers. Now, it's becoming full of followers pushed by their parents. Too bad, but probably inevitable.

John
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 27, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
No offense taken at all Norton. In fact your statement "reading the above definition, ok I can now somewhat accept Agnosticism" inspires me because I respect people who are willing to learn and evolve.




The more ridiculous that I see certain religious beliefs the less likely I believe there is any truth to them. But I can't prove it one way on the other so I would be dishonest with myself to claim I know for certain something is not true without proof, even if I think it's extremely, extremely unlikely. This whole planet or maybe even our whole reality could be an experiment by aliens or god(s). Do I think it's likely? Hell no. But I can't prove it's not.

I'm sorry if anyone takes offense at this, but honestly I think a big factor in what allows people to believe in what a religion espouses is fear of death. They don't want to accept death is the end and want to go to Heaven and live forever in paradise. Or at least be reincarnated and get to come back to Earth, of which many parts seem pretty heavenly to me. I think religions have exploited this to indoctrinate people. The ultimate carrot is Heaven and the ultimate stick is Hell. If you believe in Heaven and Hell of course you are going to start believing most of what they tell you. When I have gone to religious services way too much focus has been on convincing the people present to believe using this (it seems like once people believe you could spend most time talking about other positive aspects of religion like helping other people, acceptance, loving thy neighbor, etc.), or other fallacious reasoning supposedly supporting their beliefs.

I'd love it if there was more than this life for us, but really this life is a wonderful miracle in itself and if that's all there is I'm ok with it.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Why do the majority of Britons still believe in life after death? Heaven isn't a wonderful place filled with light – it is a pernicious construct with a short and bloody history, writes Johann Hari.

Which begs the question: From where did Hari acquire that "knowledge?"

John
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
JEleazarian - just a few examples:

"Look at Margaret Toscano, a sixth-generation Mormon who was a fanatical follower of Joseph Smith in her youth. Then she studied feminism at university. She came back to her community and argued that women ought to be allowed to become priests. The Mormon authorities – the people who denied black people had souls until 1976 – ordered her to recant, and said if she didn't, she wouldn't go to heaven with the rest of her family. She refused. Now her devastated sisters believe they won't see her in the afterlife.

Worse still, the promise of heaven is used as an incentive for people to commit atrocities. I have seen this in practice: I've interviewed wannabe suicide bombers from London to Gaza to Syria, and they all launched into reveries about the orgy they will embark on in the clouds. Similarly, I was once sent – as my own personal purgatory – undercover on the Christian Coalition Solidarity tour of Israel. As we stood at Megido, the site described in the Book of Revelation as the launchpad for the apocalypse, they bragged that hundreds of thousands of Arabs would soon be slaughtered there while George Bush and his friends are raptured to heaven as a reward for leading the Arabs to their deaths. Heaven can be an inducement to horror."

Since you ask - and if you are really interested - read the linked article... and beyond...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Grades reflected mastery of material only. It didn't matter how hard you worked. This took a lot of conditioning for students (and their parents) who thought that if you worked hard enough, you should get an "A" in any class.


It's amazing school would ever use another yardstick than how well you can wrangle the material. I remember taking creative writing classes with engineering and science types and how they often dropped the class rather than get a C or B, believing that a solid effort and flawless grammar meant an automatic A, whereas the teacher judged things entirely on the quality of the work.

Like bouldering, a good effort is commendable but what you do is what you get.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
Squirrel

"One rain-wet squirrel on a rail fence
is better than ten angels in the Kingdom of Heaven."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
I would bet Klimmer agrees his earth science kids would cruise through the material if they came to the class with a firm understanding of very basic fundamentals.

From pre-school ...

Math

Physics

Chemistry

Math

Physics

Chemistry

Math

Physics

Chemistry

... all the sciences comeback to this foundation.


Teach them till it hurts. Lol.


Now they're ready.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
Science is religion on this thread

Nonsense. Apart from religion itself, it would seem anti-science is religion on this thread - coincidence not likely.

JE, well, you must have went through a schooling system far far removed from the typical public schooling systems in America then. Good for you.

U.S. adults are second in the world, behind Sweden, in science literacy.

Citation, please. For mine, PISA and TIMSS.

Boy, you sure seem to have your foot on the brake to just about any effort or movement around here, mostly secular progressive, to continue the escape from our barbarisms of the past.

.....

I swear, somebody named Sullly posted something on this page, now it's gone.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
I wouldn't term myself an atheist because I just don't care enough either way.

I get this.

Then again, you might feel differently if when you were a kid you were as passionate about nature (including nature investigation and science) as I know you are about climbing but fundamentalist bs was always, one way or another, somehow in the way. With family, cultural values, ideology. Or with friends, etc..

In some sense, I am envious of this indifference of yours. Truth is, I wish I could live again, an alternate path, of course with the same passions for nature, etc., but next time around entirely under progressive secular humanist values. No fundamentalism around. Maybe in today's Europe or China, eh? lol! It might then be such that I too couldn't care less about religious supernaturalisms and supernaturalists, the culture wars, the religious wars, in America and beyond. Perhaps then I could just grow up in this imaginary world to be a financial engineer raking in the dough or a veterinarian looking after our furry friends. Boy wouldn't that be a different path.

Then again, remember all the stories about those who find cures for diseases, and how often a cure is developed by someone particularly motivated for some reason or another, if not directly by the science itself then maybe because a family member died of the disease and the protagonist wishes to make a difference, a positive one; and the opposite, how seldom the cure is found by anyone with no interest at all, by someone indifferent more or less. Sometimes interest is everything. Food for thought.

Some cannot fathom interest in climbing on rocks at all.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Since you ask - and if you are really interested - read the linked article... and beyond.

Marlow, my obvious point remains that what, if anything, heaven really constitutes remains unknown to anyone who has not experienced it. Therefore any conclusion concerning its existence (or nonexistence) or its nature remains mere speculation.

The link, and your arguments, both deal with "heaven" as a construct of humanity. I have no problem with the deduction that people make up ideas about heaven. If, however, you conclude that heaven does not exist as understood by, say Christians (being eternal life with God), you create an axiom, not a proven fact.

John
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
I sometimes feel that modern K-12 education simply produces dilettantes, rather than possessors of a foundation of knowledge on which to build. The sequencing of math and science classes often mystifies me


Good post, John.

Nations with higher child science literacy sequence basic physics, structure of the atom, etc. early and it seems to pay off later when students encounter earth science, biology later...


Dingus, bona fide scientists tend not to be haters. I worked among a goodly number at the Idaho Engineering Laboratory...mostly affable, clear headed individuals.

Techies often bear a hostile malice...but beyond their immediate discipline...I doubt most could pass a sound science literacy test. (opinion)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
I obviously agree, Largo, but one must determine what constitutes "mastery" of the material in high school, as opposed, say, to graduate school. My daughter's school had higher expectations of what students should know.

When the students got large numbers of B's and C's and "horrendous" grades like that, they complained that they were working on school all the time and still couldn't get an "A." This argument had, at its root, an expectation that an "A" should reflect what a good student learns in a reasonable period of time. I suspect most schools' grades reflect that expectation.

When I was at Berkeley, grades in the sciences (in contrast to those in psychology and sociology) reflected what the best students learned, irrespective of the time it took, because the best students didn't take as long to learn it. My daughter's school used this standard.

John
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
Sullly,

Teaching at a small college in Oregon with hills to run in sounds idyllic. Best wishes for getting the position.

I was in the Bay Area earlier in the summer...barely had time to attend a military ceremony of my Grandfathers unit and see my brother's new baby girl. The only "high culture" I took in was visiting Alcatraz :-).
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 06:30pm PT

Citation, please. For mine, PISA and TIMSS.


The study delineating adult science literacy was administered by Michigan State University. I couldn't find a graph on any of the sites I accessed...but Science News has an overview here:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/56517/description/Science_literacy_US_college_courses_really_count

how about Asians or Hispanics?

did their literacy testing effect the test scores enough to be noted?

or was it just those smart white children?


I saw no mention of Asian-American scores, Norton. I suspect they might be higher than white kids (opinion)

A graph of overall science literacy for 15 year olds by nation is here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_sci_lit-education-scientific-literacy


Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Ha-ha-ha! You couldn't have been there Dingus...the cells were empty :-)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 27, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
If, however, you conclude that heaven does not exist as understood by, say Christians (being eternal life with God), you create an axiom, not a proven fact.

And the axiom is: 'What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.'
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 27, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Marlow
Those sound like some really cool experiences you've had. I'm envious!
But for those examples you provided, they are nothing but ideas from men.
And their made up religions. Not of the bible. Need I say more?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
But for those examples you provided, they are nothing but ideas from men.
And their made up religions. Not of the bible. Need I say more?

Yep, you do.

A lot more.

How do you know the Bible isn't just another idea from men, made up?

Really.

How. Do. You. Know?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Corn Syrup explained:

Sure I too am "agnostic" concerning the First Cause or Higher Power behind the big bang, or behind the mystery of why there is something instead of nothing... but as I know you know, this is far far far far afield of the god concept that my mom and grandma, along with the bulk of others, were raised to believe in out out of their bibles.

This is a revelation! So are you do'in someth'in to figure out why there is Something
instead of Nothing?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:07pm PT

How. Do. You. Know?

How do we know if any history book is true or not? How do we know the Civil War really occurred? Because of all the grave sights? Yea. But mostly because people wrote about it.
The bible had many authors. And none of the different eyewitness accounts contradict one another. The bible has been the most dissected book ever written. By believers and nonbelievers alike. It's the most precise historical book of mans ancient history on the planet.
You can't get around that. Why would you want to dissacociate yourself with the history of the people's of the past? Expand your consciousness to all of mankind, yesterdays and today's.
After all we are ALL brothers and sisters that have a story to tell.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
But for those examples you provided, they are nothing but ideas from men.
And their made up religions. Not of the bible. Need I say more?

Blueblocr, Everybody around here is makin' sh#t up to some degree or another, but, wow, that was a big load! Hate to rain on your parade, but people wrote the bible and it's no more or less divinely inspired than all the rest of them. As a history book, it's actually pretty crappy and as a science book it's even worse, however insightful it might be. Just people tryin' to figure things out and talking or writing about it. Also, consider that the bible is like a game of telephone. If you've ever played that game you find out the original message can get really messed up pretty quick.

An interesting study is to read a lot of the books - bible, koran, vedas, upanishads, sufi poetry, egyptian myths, zoroastorism, buddhism, and tao te ching. If you want to read some deeper thinking about Jesus and his teaching, read St. Thomas Aquinas, Meister Eckhart, and Tomas Merton. After you read all that stuff, you begin to realize that they all end up in basically the same place concerning the ethics and morals and everybody ends up fighting over the semantics. We are living on the Tower of Babel. The Jesus ascension story was around a long time before Jesus among the Egyptians (egyptian mythology) and Persians (zoroastorism).

It's interesting to read only the "red print" in the bible. Read (what are supposedly) Jesus' words and digest them as if he were a mystic communicating his experience and consciousness. He outlined a way of acting and being in the world. If we just focused on that it would be hard to go wrong. Many Christians get too focused on other things and ignore or betray these things.

The Dalai Lama boiled Jesus' teachings down really well. "If you want to make others happy, practice compassion; if you want to make yourself happy, practice compassion."

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
And the axiom is: 'What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.'
-

In my experience, what many people would tell you from the spiritual camp - that being those who practice a mental discipline over a period of years - is that you are exactly right. You need empirical evidence, i.e., direct experience, and nothing less. An idea, belief, axiom, and so forth is of little value becase theses have limited power to change your mode of perceiving/being.

Next, perhaps, would be to understand that because the info stream is internal, while it may well be objective or largely objective, it will not be quantifiable in the usual sense of the term. But you can still know, as an absolute fact, what is what, relative to your own person.

For intance, most people wouldn't need numerical "proof" to back up the direct experience of hating the taste of a rotten apple or curdled milk, and knowing as much per that experience/feeling/sensation. Meeting unborn phenomenon is a different order experience thatg meeting bad grub, but the knowing, while unquantifiable and ungraspable, is nevertheless the same, known principally by it's effects - sort of like gravity. It might be hard to say exactly what gravity is, as a thing, above and beyond a "force" (which is hardly a person, place or thing), but when you hit the ground you know Old Man Gravity is real.

Lastly, to ever gather this evidence you must effort along certain lines, probably for some years. And there's no guarantee in this regards that you will encounter anythng beyond serenity and your own unconsciouss, which is a significant experience in itself.

So you can see that people are going to have problem with spiritual evidence because, one, they cannot wrangle it at the "intake" with their evaluating minds, and two, the evidence itself is part of the experiential/internal, rather then external realm, and people are mostly not given to trowling around in there because it makes "little sense" at the outset.

Expecting to be able to merely noodle the slippery experiential material is like expecting to discover self-consciousness by way of investigating objective functioning. There is never any evidence of consciousness in the brain because all we see are remarkably complex electrochemical processes that are congruent with other electrochemical proceses in Nature, more complex, but not of a different order or type, and in all the other instances of electrochemical functioning, concsiousness is not forthcoming. A machine, even a machine of genius times a trillion level smarts could never detect experience in a brain because experience is knowable only to those who have it. You can't bottle it and pass it over to the next guy to try on for size. And yu can't lob it to a machine, even the smartest machine in creation, and expect that bucket of bolts to know or fathom what experience is. "Knowing" is strictly a human deal.

Much of the info gathering per spiritual thngs is a self-fullfillng process. If we are expecting material proof of experiential truths, from hating the taste of road apples, to encounterinig the unborn, we will be entirely "right" when such external proof is not forthcoming. But we will be entirely incorrect if we belive that internal knowing is itself a fuzzy feeling, a belief, a concept, a axiom, a matter of faith.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:41pm PT

Among 15 year olds, the U.S. rates 14th in science literacy. Disadvantaged students, especially those in inner city high schools, bring down the average considerably. Learning scientific concepts is more difficult in environments rife with tension and anxiety.

Maybe it's not cuz of tension or anxiety at all. Perhaps when we are living within big city full of people. There is always something to do, and someone to do it with. There aren't many social scenes where people hang out and talk about why a duck is a duck. Or why a tomato turns red. Besides 15 yo's would rather hang out listening to music and being creative. Or play sports and make goo-goo eyes at each other. They're playing, enjoying life! What's so enjoyable about knowing what makes the earth move? Sounds boring. Seems like its the more segregated and secluded kids that spend more time on the Internet.

Look at us here. No one ever wants to talk about why the brain floats in a bag of water.
And how the synapses act in this gravity-less bag of water.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
The bible had many authors. And none of the different eyewitness accounts contradict one another.

Are you completely mad? They do so contradict one another. The whole Bible disagrees with itself on particulars all the time. You just don't want to admit it.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
There aren't many social scenes where people hang out and talk about why a duck is a duck.

Makes me long for the early days of the Beats and Flower Children...

Twerking just isn't the same.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
Language is a big factor in school testing, Blue

Idaho students tend to do much better on achievement tests than California students...but since 29% of California students are English Language learners to only 6% in Idaho, it's not a fair comparison.

Before drawing conclusions about relative test scores we should look carefully at social and demographic realities...
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
maybe this is why....

[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
Norton,

Blu=BES=specialistclimberXX.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
Hello, Sullly. ;)

.....

re: John Hagee

And don't just listen to John Hagee, but look to see those umpteen million followers of his altogether living in their bronze age bubble.

And to think not a few uncaring or clueless outliers call us alarmists.

Secular progressives are really the main bulwark against these umpteen million bronze age supernaturalists taking over. It's like the whole Syria thing right now in some respects. If not the progressive seculars, then who? Not the indifferent moderates.

re: Liberty University

...and may the Fates somehow find a way to open up a very big sink hole... under this absolutely religulous mockery of an institution of higher learning... that has committed itself to putting bronze-age thinkers in American courtrooms and legislatures.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 27, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
So Norton, a student can only learn critical thinking in a science classroom? WTF?

why would you think that is true?

I certainly did not say that.

What I did say is that science does teach critical thinking skills, no one could dispute that.
MH2

climber
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
"Knowing" is strictly a human deal.


Said the human.

You are showing progress, JL. It is good to see you qualify the, "Cell phones have electricity and they aren't conscious" argument. That was absurd.

There is a lot that we don't know. It is better to try to do and to learn rather than to proclaim what is impossible.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:25am PT
You are showing progress, JL. It is good to see you qualify the, "Cell phones have electricity and they aren't conscious" argument. That was absurd.

There is a lot that we don't know. It is better to try to do and to learn rather than to proclaim what is impossible.
--


Cell phones have electricity etc. is a strong indication that you didn't grasp the argument. I must have short-handed my explanation. The argument belongs to Prof. Colin McGinn, formally of University of Miami, a leader of the New Mysterium school of whatever.

All he was saying is that the existence of electrochemical activity in the brain, no matter how you shake or formulate it (synapses, etc.), can never suggest consciousness because such functions are found all throughout Nature but cnsciousness is never a bi-product. Ever. This is another way of saying that objective functioning cannot account for consciousness, but it certainly can acount for memory, etc (functions).

You said that it is not "better" to proclaim what is impossible, in reference to me stating that the discursive mind cannot wrangle borderless, unborn, infinite qualities. This would imply that there are limits to discursive reasoning, which is not accpetable to someone believing in scientism.

But it's pretty easy to reason through. Discursive processing requires the objectification of a thing. That is, the mind must be able to wrangle a person, place or thing from some remove, narrow focusing on said thing lest the brain cannot quantify. Put differently, awareness must throw a rope around a whatever it wants to quantify. This rope cannot harness infinity, which includes the mind that is attempting to quantify. The moment you rope it off, not only have you precluded everyting outside of said rope, but the mind that is in remove. So in a sense, discursively intaking infinity is mechanically impossible because discursive reasoning can only function when parcing this or that.

This can be experientially confirmed via subjective disciplines, which is really the only way to see it clearly. Otherwise the discursive mind will keep trying to figure out how this is wrong, basically trying to "kiss it's own lips," as the saying goes.

These are all age-old challenges that meditation etc. deals with directly and which take over where the discursive mind leaves off. But without the experiencs themselves, I wouldn't expect to get too far because it's not a discursive exercise at the intake phase, and discursive is all most people know. Discursive is, after all, what gave us technology, so don't for a minute think I'm knocking the discursive.

And per your comment, "Said the human," who else but a human, or something programmed by a human, can you imagine has the wherewithal to "say" anything? Hal, LOL?

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:53am PT
David Silverman, President of the American Atheists
My vanity "ATHEIST" license plate was just refused by the state. Reason: It's offensive.

In New Jersey, apparently.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:08am PT
Malemute thanks for the rebuttal, you guys are giving me good reason to read more of the bible. The discerning thing is that you guys are reading these cut and pastes, and want them to be true or right ecause of ur prejudice. But if your really seeking for truth, shouldn't one ought to weigh BOTH sides?

1. According to your Bible I am to believe that human kind is sinful for Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge. Why are we being punished for the original sin? After all, they ate the forbidden fruit, we didn’t. Reason would lead one to say it’s their problem, not ours. Even the bible contradicts itself by claiming in Deuteronomy 24:16, “children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.”

To understand Deut. 24:16 one has to back up to 24:14. Here Moses speaking to his people explains; "You shall not oppress a hired servant...." and he goes on explaining do's an dont's.
24:16 says "fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin." Here Mosses is telling the slave owners, if one of your slaves breaks a law which is punishable by death. That lawbreaker cannot use another person to accept said punishment.
So this scripture was taken WAY out of context. It has absolutely nothing to do with Adam or Eve!

To often people want to grab a sentence from here and there and put'em together to make their own bible. It's a shame really!
I read the rest. But I'm not going to go on here. If there is a certain one that bugs ya, I'll try.
But they're all misconstrued.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:37am PT
^^^ that's the approach!
But I hope you find out. If you Glorify God, He will Glorify You!!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:49am PT
So as not to get yelled at on another very important thread here at ST ...


Genesis 4:9-10
"…9Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground."

Proverbs 3:5-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
"5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a] your paths."

Question: "Christian dream interpretation? Are our dreams from God?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-dream-interpretation.html


Yes, HaShem talks to us in our sleep in our dreams. Many have thought of Matt and have had the same dreams. HaShem has told us so much already. PAY ATTENTION. The answer is closer than you think.



Edit:

I searched for: "Do murderers want to get caught?"


http://crime.about.com/od/serial/a/serial_myths.htm

Myth: Serial Killers Want to Get Caught

The law enforcement, academic and mental health experts who developed the FBI serial killer report said that as serial killers gain experience with killing, they gain confidence with each offense. They develop a feeling that they will never be identified and never be caught.
But killing someone and disposing of their body is not an easy task. As they gain confidence in the process, they can begin to take shortcuts or make mistakes. These mistakes can lead to them being identified by law enforcement.
It's not that they want to get caught, the study said, it's that they feel that they cannot get caught.


I believe the answer is closer than we all think.
MH2

climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:05am PT
Your thinking is confused, JL, and looks to me like it has grown more so over the course of the various threads in which you talk about consciousness. That does not mean that your ability to experience is compromised. It may be enhanced. However, it appears that your ability to know and describe what it is that you experience is compromised, or unimportant to you.

How is it that you do not understand that attempts to understand brain function are only that? Curiosity and systematic study are not equivalent to a view that all will be explained. You sound paranoid.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:39am PT
When I read ur post all I see is childhood
Name calling is so kindergarten
As my 2nd grader would say
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:59am PT
Do you people wake up everyday Hate'in
You can make a change today
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
No use arguing with aufeasants (aka incorritants). Experience-wise, regarding science, they are in a different place. Remember, it's easy to lapse and forget the Curse of Knowledge principle, but it applies here.

(No use looking them up. Idiosyncratic vocabulary.)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Free at last, Free at last Thank God Almighty Free at last

Thank You Dr. King for dreaming of Love and not that of hate.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
However, it appears that your ability to know and describe what it is that you experience is compromised, or unimportant to you.
-

What I am saying, in the simplest terms, is that explanations of the normal, discursive kind are not possilbe with concsiousness. We can say a lot, but only about functions, not about the phenomenon itself. I believe you are thinking that the lack of discursive explanations per subjectivity is proof that my faculities are compromised (always possible LOL) but what I'm saying is that yo uor anyone else will face the same basic truth if and when you tried to frame subjectivity.

If you think otherwise, let it fly and we'll judge the state of your faculties. The thing is such questions are largely innappropriae here because people are only interested in discursive objectifying, wheather or not Jesus actually walked on water.

JL
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
"The bible had many authors. And none of the different eyewitness accounts contradict one another."

Are you completely mad? They do so contradict one another. The whole Bible disagrees with itself on particulars all the time. You just don't want to admit it.

Is not!

Is so!

The existence of the alleged contradictions of the Bible, or the alleged lack thereof, depend on how one reads it. Legal canons of statutory and contractual construction dictate that if we can read a statute or document in ways that produce self-contradiction and in ways that don't, we select the way that does not produce self-contradiction.

Those searching for Biblical contradictions choose the opposite approach: read selected passages in a way that produces disharmony. Those supporting Biblical authority choose the traditional legal canonical approach. That's why Christians often say that you interpret Scripture with Scripture.

I would also note that the doctrines of Biblical Authority and Biblical Inerrancy do not mean Biblical literalism. Many passages of the Bible, particularly in Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelation, explicitly state that they are not a literal description of events. Nothing in the Bible demands that its language contain no idioms, much less sarcasm or other figures of speech.

Finally, systematic theology (the study of what the Bible says about a particular subject) treats the Bible as God's revelation about Himself. {Aside: the Hebrew pronoun for God is neither masculine nor feminine. Since English and Greek have no such pronoun, I am using the traditional masculine reference) The Bible is not a textbook on economics, science, comparative literature, or any other discipline.

Ultimately, no one has produced an argument that the Bible contradicts itself that survives standard systematic theological examination. I have no time today to refute each argument individually, and no inclination, because i think the givers of those arguments have no interest in learning of their refutation. Those who care can find the refutation themselves. They certainly don't need me to tell them how to acquire knowledge!

Similarly, though, neither has anyone produced an argument that logically establishes that the Bible does not contradict itself. Any attempt to convince one of Biblical truth solely by logic fails, because the Bible does not build on human intelligence or wisdom. Orthodox Christian Biblical doctrine is clear on this point. Acceptance of Biblical truth depends on yielding to the Holy Spirit's call. As I argued earlier, that call is always more attractive to society's losers than it is to its winners.

So why does "everybody" hate Christianity (as opposed to Christians) so much? Because it contradicts what society says is important, and because it says we are inherently corrupt and helpless on our own. It says that everything we do on our own is filth. Its lack of appeal to the self-important needs no further explanation. Similarly, its attraction to the meek shows clearly.

John
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
What I am saying, in the simplest terms, is that explanations of the normal, discursive kind are not possilbe with concsiousness. . . . . because people are only interested in discursive objectifying

It all makes sense now! Why didn't I see this before?

Thank you, Reverend Largo, for keeping the pressure on until this humble agnostic glimpses the glories of No-Thingness, the marvelous ecstacies of Emptyness, the wonders of shutting down all those areas of the brain and dwelling in Near Brain Death for a brief moment.

Keep up the religious proselytizing JL . . . the Church of Emptyness will eventually fill!


;>)
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
The Bible says exactly what the Council of Nicea thought it should say; so that their own personal world view would be perpetuated.

edit: and of course they were hand-picked and enlightened by god
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
when new born babies are born WITH sin and only through Baptism can they have a shot at heaven

Not entirely sound doctrine, Norton. Your doctrinal statement about original sin is correct. Your statement on baptism and who gets to heaven is not.

In orthodox doctrine, salvation guarantees eternal life in heaven. The thief calling on Jesus on the cross certainly was not baptized, but was promised that he would be in Paradise with Jesus that day, so being baptized is not a necessary condition for salvation. Neither is it a sufficient condition, since salvation involves acceptance of Christ as savior.

Moreover, humans don't get to judge who gets saved. The Biblical injunction against judgment -- which many Christians blithely ignore -- reserves that for God, not humanity. Further, there is no Biblical doctrine about the eternal destination of infants, for example.

Carry on. I need to get to some work that pays temporal rewards.

;-)

John
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
Largo, do you think some other higher animals (e.g. gorillas) have consciousness?

Just because we don't currently understand how the brain can produce consciousness doesn't mean it isn't happening independently there. The pop neuroscience you have posted about here doesn't seem to be saying "the brain produces consciousness", I believe 'pop neuroscience' says "we can at this time discover how the brain produces consciousness through simple brain mapping". And of course that would be bunk.

The human brain has approx 100 billion neurons. Those neurons make new connections all the time to multiple other neurons, as opposed to a computer where it all breaks down to simple on-off statements. It's structure evolved over billions of years. Unlike any simple computer structure we don't even know how the whole brain works together, there are primitive parts (the so called reptilian brain) the mammalian brain, and the corpus callosum (what's that all about? the yin and yang of the brain, it's like we have two brains working together and maybe that's some of the 'magic' of how the brain works). Sure there's parts of the brain devoted to sight or hearing or touch, but I imagine those are processing centers and many other parts of the brain are needed to make sense of anything. We are just tapping into how the brain works. It's incredibly complex, interconnected, and mysterious.

It seems to me if there is a universal component to consciousness it would more likely be that consciousness is a inherent property/possibility of the universe, rather than consciousness is dependent on an external source. i.e. a person's consciousness is a model of some grand consciousness not the grand consciousness is residing in our minds.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
Thank You John,

As I argued earlier, that call is always more attractive to society's losers than it is to its winners.

HIP HIP HORAY FOR THE LOSERS!!!!!

"I have a dream, I have a dream"
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
The Fet said:

It seems to me if there is a universal component to consciousness it would more likely be that consciousness is a inherent property/possibility of the universe, rather than consciousness is dependent on an external source.


I've never said consciousness is "dependent on some external source." Nothing is dependent on an external source. That's Bible talk.

I've tried to keep this talk grounded in basic concepts of perception, while challenging the idea that discursive reasoning is only one road to knowing aything, and is limited in knowing subjectivity, "God," and so forth. I also have said a person had to do some little work on their own to know what this stuff really means. That it wasn't easy material immediately availaibe to reason.

In the process I have been called a minister of no-thing, a reverend, and so forth, which is flattering but untrue. But there is no sense in hammering this any further, on this or other threads, because seeing into any of this at depth requires a willinginness to go past the discursive, and that willingness is simply not here, where scientism has most folks in a Full Nelson, with virtue placed on the chock hold.

Perpahs someone will have been made curious enough to see for themselves, which was the exercise all along. But that's it for this minister.

Now get back to arguing over how many loaves were drawn from the basket.

JL

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:51pm PT

Zen Meditation is associated with the Zen branch of Buddhism, which emphasises meditation as its core technique for uniting the body and the mind. The goal of all meditation is to focus and calm the mind, thereby increasing the awareness of the individual.

Meditation is typically practised by concentrating on a single activity to the exclusion of all else. Various techniques are employed to reach this state, and can promote general wellbeing and health, as well as helping to boost the immune system. Zen meditation concentrates on clearing the mind of all thoughts by focusing on posture and breathing techniques. This is designed to alleviate the individual of the psychological burden of everyday worries and help to attain a higher state of consciousness.


Essentials of Zen meditation
Meditation is closely associated with Zen Buddhism, and has developed a number of positions to achieve the necessary state. This includes the classic Lotus Position, which involves a cross-legged position with the feet on opposite thighs. This is a particularly difficult position for beginners, but easier variations do exist, including the half lotus, Burmese and seiza, which involves using a pillow or low bench to support the thighs.
The benefits of meditation

Meditation has been recognised for centuries by many cultures and religions as a discipline that has a range of mental and physical benefits for an individual, including:

reducing stress and anxiety
increasing concentration
improving posture
coping with depression.
http://www.naturaltherapypages.co.uk/article/zen_meditation
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
JL wrote: In the process I have been called a minister of no-thing, a reverend, and so forth, which is flattering but untrue. But there is no sense in hammering this any further, on this or other threads, because seeing into any of this at depth requires a willinginness to go past the discursive, and that willingness is simply not here, where scientism has most folks in a Full Nelson, with virtue placed on the chock hold.

Perpahs someone will have been made curious enough to see for themselves, which was the exercise all along. But that's it for this minister.


What makes you think they haven't and you are the only one on this thread that has?

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
What makes you think they haven't and you are the only one on this thread that has?
--

Nothing whatsoever, Bob. My comments were obviously directed at those who had not heeded the invitation, which is entirely their choice.

If you want to, you can take it up where I left off. Good luck with that.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
OH, Come on Man!
I don't want them just hating me
Their jus scared
That's why all the denialism
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
The name of this thread "why does everyone hate christianity so much?" is all wrong. The name is just stupid attention-seeking (and it has succeeded). I don't know anybody who hate christianity. But I have known a few persons who inbetween loved to see themselves as hated...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
JL wrote: If you want to, you can take it up where I left off. Good luck with that.

JL


Thanks for the reply...I really have no need too. :-)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 28, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Ultimately, no one has produced an argument that the Bible contradicts itself that survives standard systematic theological examination.

Well, how about that. Shocker.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 28, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
I've tried to keep this talk grounded in basic concepts of perception, while challenging the idea that discursive reasoning is only one road to knowing aything, and is limited in knowing subjectivity, "God," and so forth. I also have said a person had to do some little work on their own to know what this stuff really means. That it wasn't easy material immediately availaibe to reason.

Ahh. Simple statements like that can help clear things up for a layman like myself. In terms of where you are coming from and what you are trying to say.

As I mentioned before I have caught little glimpses of new awareness during meditation, but I'm really a punter in that arena, and I do naturally put a lot more weight into knowledge deducted through reason.

I think you have helped (me at least) and could continue to help people explore other possibilities of attaining knowledge because you are an excellent writer. Maybe your writing is like a climbing topo. It is just a rough approximation of the path you could follow, but it is a hell of a lot better than just pointing at El Cap and saying it's on the middle of that face.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
I spent to much time flaming on this and other threads and pushed away people who might otherwise be interested in other frames of reference. While I was having fun as a diversion to work, and razing the beaker boys and their 21century God: symbolic (usually numeric) constructs, I just dashed stuff off and botched the description. This stuff is almost impossible to make people appreciate when explained deftly, and impossible when short-handed. So this stuff never found traction here, but that's no fault of the material itself.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
...while challenging the idea that discursive reasoning is only one road to knowing anything....

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 28, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
Our gender differences shaped by natural selection...


Here's a thought-provoking read:
Is There Anything Good About Men: How Cultures Flourish by Exploiting Men
Roy Baumeister

"Wherever you go, you will find females less likely than males to see what is so fascinating about ohms, carburetors or quarks."
Patricia Hausman
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Well John Long,

seriously, I think that you would entice more people reading your postings to try the Zen Meditation you personally practice simply by listing, speaking of, what benefits, they may realize.

Maybe try going into some good detail as to what positive changes they could expect.

Thus far, I doubt that anyone is interested enough to take the time to really check it out.

How about it, John?

WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
I learned a lot from Largo's No-thing-Om.

I learned who's really stupid and who's really intelligent here.

The words out.

The data is not looking good for the intelligent side .......
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
Interesting that meditation has come up. As a physician, I have an interest in selfcare based tools for patients to measurably improve their health parameters. Mediation has come from the realm of the esoteric to the physiologically measurable. The real time heart rate variability instrumentation I use in practice allows me to measure the effects of meditation and other biofeedback type approaches on patients so that the approach they use can be customized to their systems.

I have observed that religious practice can produce improved heart rate variability and mediative states. One devout Catholic patient who goes into perfect autonomic balance when meditating on the sacred heart of Christ. Another does the same when doing alternate nostril breathing, a yoga technique, while listening to Elvis sing Gospel, but not when doing either alone. The mind is an interesting and inspiring instrument!

For an interesting read about neuroplasticity and meditation along with other mind disciplines, read "Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain" by Sharon Begley. There is a wide open fireld for investigating the physiological effects of various religious practices.

Lazar, S.W., Kerr, C.E., Wasserman, R.H., Gray, J.R., Greve, D.N., Treadway, M.T., McGarvey, M., Quinn, B.T., Dusek, J.A., Benson, H., Rauch, S.L., Moore, C.I. & Fischl, B., 2005, Meditation experience is associated with increased cortical thickness, Neuroreport, 16(17), pp. 1893-7.

Mediate and end up with a thicker frontal cortex! This has some exciting implications for improved mental functions and improved aging.

Tei, S., Faber, P.L., Lehmann, D., Tsujiuchi, T., Kumano, H., Pascual-Marqui, R.D., Gianotti, L.R. & Kochi, K., 2009, Meditators and non-meditators: EEG source imaging during resting, Brain topography, 22(3), pp. 158-65.

The outcome of this study suggests that neuroplastic changes from long-term meditation practice result in increased awareness during non-meditating states.

Oman, D., Shapiro, S.L., Thoresen, C.E., Plante, T.G. & Flinders, T., 2008, Meditation lowers stress and supports forgiveness among college students: a randomized controlled trial, Journal of American college health : J of ACH, 56(5), pp. 569-78.

Meditation-based stress-management practices were found to reduce stress and enhance forgiveness among college undergraduates.

PS I didn't make this sh#t up!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
Mark Force wrote,
As a physician, I have an interest in selfcare based tools...

Cool! What kind of physician are you?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
Chiropractic. Here is an informal CV - http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/dr-and-staff/dr-force.html
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
Right on.

Wow, three daughters, too. You look that young. Must be the kinesiology, eh? :)

What's your view of Vit T therapy as a man ages? Didn't Jack L take Vit T in his later years?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:12am PT
There are some concerns "taking vitamin T." I am an advocate of optimizing production through nutrient dense diet that is high in natural fats and low in carbs (grains), intermittent fasting, short and intense compound movement weight training (Olympic lifting and/or kettlebell training), adequate sleep, interval exercise for conditioning, stress management (yoga, tai chi/chi gong, mediation), some clinical nutrition for allowing the optimal conversion of cholesterol to testosterone, and the avoidance of xenobiotics (plastics and pesticides that are estrogen mimics).

The ratio between testosterone to estrogen is key and is often more important than the absolute testosterone value. The ratio is ideally 8/1 or a little more. A lot of guys come in feeling pretty crappy with a ratio of 2/1. We men are being poisoned by all the sources of estrogen in our environment!

I don't know if Jack LaLanne took T when he was older. His regimen, overall, was basically the same as listed above. His teacher was a guy named Paul Bragg who advocated regular fasting. There's some amazing research on fasting! I wrote a pretty extensively referenced paper on it a while back that you might find interesting concerning your question.

http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-supplements-and/intermittent_fasting.pdf

Often, there is too much emphasis on T and not enough on growth hormone and other factors (the most anabolic hormone in your body is insulin! So insulin resistance is one of your greatest threats to muscle mass, bone density, etc.). Fasting and intense and heavy exercise are probably the most powerful stimulants of growth hormone production and insulin sensitivity.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:20am PT
I've been interested in not only the ratio you mentioned but also T values of men as a function of having family and also females in their everyday lives. You're a family man and you have three daughters. Wondering if you've had yours checked?

Interesting about the fasting component. I know that minimal diet is conducive to longevity and that's always been a problem for me. I'll check out your fasting article.

I got the heavy lifting thing covered. I'm a believer. I basically grew up in a lifting gym.



I should say, Wondering if you had your T checked when your daughters were preteen and teens (not so much now, obviously) when you were a full-on family man. How old were you if you have?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:26am PT
I've been interested in not only the ratio you mentioned but also T values of men as a function of having family and also females in their everyday lives. You're a family man and you have three daughters. Wondering if you've had yours checked?

Good one! There actually is some research that indicates men in long-term committed relationships with children have lower T than same age single controls! There is no certainty as to why. It may play a role in protecting the family unit by decreasing aggresion.

That's where knowledge and discipline are useful. I'm good; thanks for asking.

It's worth noting on the lifting thing that machine weight training and isolation weight training (biceps curls, for instance) from the bodybuilding and gym crowd do not produce the same increases in testosterone and growth hormone that quick lifting whole body movements (Olympic lifting and kettlebell lifting) do.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:30am PT
My T to E ratio was quite high, higher than the numbers you mentioned, if memory serves, so all good on that count. Although also nowadays as I'm sure you know there are different labs running different standards and numbers. So that might explain the ratio discrepancy I remember. With the estradiols.

.....

So Mark, are we mechanistic through and through like the biology textbooks imply... or is there a ghost in the machine... that interfaces to the neurons? Here's a goofball giving his view on "free will" - watch it sometime assuming you haven't already...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

and share a few thoughts. I'd like to hear.

Welcome to the internet lecture age, eh?

.....

re: quick lifting whole body movements

Personal prescription for self: two sessions of squats (185 x 20 for a half a dozen sets, free bar) twice a week. To keep the skeletal system in shape, on guard. (I like to believe it gives those bone cells signalling and feedback they otherwise wouldn't get.;) How's that? To complement the running, lest my legs in later years get too skinny.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:58am PT
Science will figure it out..it is just a matter of time. The mind is the "last frontier" in human development. Science will continue to probe, seek and find.

People like Werner just don't get it. All the crap he spews out comes from the mind...not some divine being.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 01:09am PT
Your so called science doesn't deal in absolutes.

You just made an absolute.

You're a hypocrite and unscientific .....
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 29, 2013 - 01:10am PT
I love science, mechanistic thinking is useful, and there is a ghost in the machine (whatever you want to call that) as far as I can tell. A lot of scientists, academics, and clinicians will tell you the same thing in my experience. That's where the agnosticism comes in. It's important I think to remain humble when being involved with the scientific method and always keep in mind that our instruments for observing and measuring have certain limitations and our models and theories are not the reality itself (as Abraham Maslow said, "The map is not the terrain.).

Free will has been challenged by some scientists and there are some interesting experiments that have been done that could seem to support the challenge...or not. The jury is still out on that one. My experience has been that those who exercise their will to act over time in ways that culminate in them having lives that are congruent to their values and vison are the happiest and most fulfilled and those who don't aren't. This takes a conscious and ongoing act of will to achieve. Seems like free will to me (is that the neurological reality? I still think there is a lot of fudge in the research yet).

Your weight lifting routine mimics the "milk and squat" routine of the old school strongmen. It is legit and the benefits to muscle mass and bone density are real. Bone density increases as a result of physical strain to the bone. This type of training can make a lot of people too big (depends on your genetics) for optimal climbing strength to weight ratio. High weight and low rep (1-5 per lift) seem to be the best for optimal strength to weight ratio. My experience has been that the bone density of long-term heavy lifters is typically very high (though their joints aren't always in the best of shape!).

And, your right, Werner, science is not about absolutes; leave that to religion! Always beware those who claim to know the Truth with a capital T!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 29, 2013 - 01:17am PT
Yeah, I've purposely increased my rep count per set these last years.

.....

I don't know, looks like at least a hungry homunculus if not a ghost in there...
Nice chatting.


.....

Bob, I think so, too. Science ain't done yet.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 29, 2013 - 01:19am PT
Science is not about being done yet; it's about not being done yet.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 01:22am PT
Just see this man Force is more intelligent.

The other two guys ....

Oh .... never mind

LOL
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Don't be hate'n, if you don't know the real God of the bible you don't know God at all...

Oy.

“The Tao that can be understood cannot be the primal, or cosmic, Tao, just as an idea that can be expressed in words cannot be the infinite idea.

And yet this ineffable Tao was the source of all spirit and matter, and being expressed was the mother of all created things.

Therefore not to desire the things of sense is to know the freedom of spirituality; and to desire is to learn the limitation of matter. These two things spirit and matter, so different in nature, have the same origin. This unity of origin is the mystery of mysteries, but it is the gateway to spirituality.”

~ Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

Just a counterpoint for you. Other people think about this stuff and have their ideas and feelings about it. When you claim that there is only one truth and one way and everyone else who thinks differently about their personal beliefs is wrong, you disrespect them, you affront them. This is not the spiritual path. This is not practicing the compasionate and non-judgemental path that Jesus calls you to walk. In buddhist philosophy, this path is called ahimsa (non-harmfulness). My experience has been that those who seriously practice their religion to the fruit of spirituality will display compassion, non-judgement, and non-harmfulness and do not need external confirmation for the rightness of their path for them. Those who have not matured in their religious/spiritual path need others to validate them and they need everyone else to believe what they believe.

Who would you be if you allowed the consciousness of Christ to live in your being and to motivate all your speech and your actions? It would probably would not look evangeical, but more like the quiet and loving service of Mother Theresa. Something to think about.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits."
~Matthew 7:16

“Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.”
~Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
Dingus, Well put! I was overstating the issue a bit. Look forward to buying you and a bunch of other folks here a beer sometime and having some lively conversation.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
Dingus wrote: But don't fault em for their beliefs. Fault em for their sales skills. Can you see Werner selling white goods down at Lowes?


And that is what it really is...a sales pitch. The carrot dangling just in front of you, to get it they want your soul.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
Then I'll sell Pinter and Beckett:

Harold Pinter summed up the strange power and ugly beauty of Beckett's work when he wrote:

"He's not f*#king us about, he's not leading us up any garden path, he's not slipping us a wink, he's not flogging us a remedy or a path or a revelation or a basinful of breadcrumbs, he's not selling us anything we don't want to buy — he doesn't give a bollock whether I buy or not — he hasn't got his hand over his heart. Well, I'll buy his goods, hook, line and sinker, because he leaves no stone unturned and no maggot lonely."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
I was overstating... Look forward to buying you and a bunch of other folks here a beer sometime...

Mark, please, this ain't your office, lol.

This is where grapplers come let their hair down, roll up their sleeves... and get busy, lol... either singly or in small groups... slicing, dicing and chopping their way through their opponents' ridiculously crazy ideas, ideologies, philosophies, religions, lol... in order to become top alpha of course - so when the ladies are introduced (tis Coming soon, as promised)... lol... he or they will have the coveted top spot, glory and full-on access... to heaven on earth. :)


Read the forum playbook, regarding "debate threads" - it's posted on the site somewhere. LOL. :)

.....

Here's a riddle for you:
What percentage of our ancestors were male?

Hint: It's not a trick question and the answer ain't 50%.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 29, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Mark, I was joking, teasing, all in fun, lol. I don't have the wording skills of jlo or locker so it's not always clear. Mea culpa. But I went back and edited, so maybe its clearer now??? :)

Regarding the riddle, it was just to point to a interesting topic of evolutionary theory - that in ancient or primordial times alpha males did most of the reproducing at the expense of the "also-rans".

So if you do the math (at this choss pile sometimes referred to as "the facts and figures") as experts have done, it turns out that there is a 2:1 female to male ancestral difference; and in percentage terms, humanity's ancestors were about 67% female, 33% male.

Have a good one! :)
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 29, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Okay, enough already.

Here's the final word. Pope Francis I has laid it down: "The one true path to heaven." Check it out at http://www.theonion.com/articles/heres-the-one-true-way-to-heaven,33668/
MH2

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
But how do I get to Eden?
MH2

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
JL is a great guy, smart and funny. We wouldn't necessarily learn that from threads like this, but that isn't what threads like this are about. Like Werner says, we learn about other people. I picture it like the game of Battleship where the objective(haha) is to learn your opponent's position. Largo has one boat in his navy, the SUB(jective) sitting in the single square on his board, 1A. Not his fault that other posters can land repeated hits on it.

Whether we resolve issues or convince others or even make clear arguments are not the measure of what is going on, here. Even if we are just making sh*t up and/or trying to sell sh*t:

If we want to transcend our intrinsic triviality we need to diversify, and be more inclusive. We should welcome the whole gamut of sh*t. In addition to fully rigorous sh*t, we also need semi-rigorous sh*t, ε-rigorous sh*t, non-rigorous sh*t, very plausible sh*t, plausible sh*t, all the way to wild guesses sh*t. Of course, for interesting statements it would be nice to upgrade their level of sh*t, but we should not spend too much time on these upgrades, since there is so much exciting new sh*t to discover.

(paraphrased from a source kept anonymous for protection)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
"The evidence seems to be building that we are actually all Martians; that life started on Mars and came to Earth on a rock...."

Woooooooo. My discursive mind thinks this is so cool.

Unproven, but cool.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24120-primordial-broth-of-life-was-a-dry-martian-cupasoup.html

And then there's this:

Warning – if you have any ability to think critically, or any intellectual self-respect, the video may induce a feeling of extreme disgust, and in some cases heavy vomiting.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/logic-vs-ray-comfort/
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
It's ironic that from Christianity's perspective, atheism can seem like a death cult.

"And I am not frightened of dying. Any time will do, I don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There's no reason for it – you've got to go sometime."

Check it out: This "Hippie Chick" is quite the video to music album artist. She's making quite a record for herself, Moody Blues to Pink Floyd...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI-F7vUrfQw

Great Gig in the Sky, 14:38, featuring Clare Torry, in 2005 won a co-authorship rights in lawsuit, for her haunting vocals.

The Moody Blues - Days of Future Passed - is a must watch & listen, imo.

.....

MH2, I like the Battleship metaphor.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Rocky Raccoon checked in his room only to find his Dr F's & HFCS's atheist bible ......

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
Cintune, interesting piece. Led me here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ

So I bookmarked it. I've never heard of this guy, guess I've been out of the loop here.

EDIT: Oh I remember him now...


Appeared on TV with Kirk C a couple years back, I remember now.

Imagine the added turmoil around here were Ray “The Bananaman” Comfort a climber and supertopo poster, my lord!

What Comfort is doing is an extreme example of asking “gotcha” questions. This is a common strategy, as the idea is very appealing – asking someone with whom you disagree that killer question that exposes their position as untenable and collapses their argument in one fell swoop.

Yeah, seems familiar, lol!

Comfort does serve one purpose, however, as an intellectual buffoon. His work is a great way to study logical fallacies and for the novice critical thinker to sharpen their skills.

One of the very reasons a few might come here.

.....

She was brilliant and beautiful, and the next night she introduced me to a part of heaven I never even knew existed.

Ghost, nice find! :)
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 30, 2013 - 12:16am PT
If we want to transcend our intrinsic triviality we need to diversify, and be more inclusive. We should welcome the whole gamut of sh*t. In addition to fully rigorous sh*t, we also need semi-rigorous sh*t, ε-rigorous sh*t, non-rigorous sh*t, very plausible sh*t, plausible sh*t, all the way to wild guesses sh*t. Of course, for interesting statements it would be nice to upgrade their level of sh*t, but we should not spend too much time on these upgrades, since there is so much exciting new sh*t to discover.

Wow! What an exciting and cool expansion of the We All Make This Sh#t Up Hypothesis! Thanks, MH2!

HF Corn Spirit, thanks for keeping me on task. ;-)

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 30, 2013 - 12:29am PT
but more like the quiet and loving service of Mother Theresa. Something to think about.

Everybody thinks so highly of mother Teresa's life for what she did. But good works doesn't necessarily raise ur Holyness. Actually it's what you go against the grain, and not do! Signs are not holy. The only thing you can look at is the Heart!

“Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.”

This one should go to the last page of FRUITLESSISM!!!!!!!!!

Actually I mean the entire history of FRUITLESSNESS on the Taco


Gett'in down with my bad self!
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Aug 30, 2013 - 01:11am PT
Ghost's link so funny.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 30, 2013 - 11:26am PT
For you, Sully, Sweet Lorraine...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJzzNMv9Oo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDi4hBWsvkY
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
Why does everyone hate Christianity so much?

Easy. Not enough people do.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 30, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
"For Heaney, the poet can only be true to exhilarating moments by respecting their strangeness. That is why the word "epiphany," which Joyce famously used, does not quite fit Heaney's conception. The word comes from the Greek for appearance or shining-forth; in the Christian calendar, the Feast of the Epiphany celebrates the appearance of Christ's divinity to the Magi. But for Heaney, a post-Catholic poet, it is by no means clear that it is God who is shining through the earth, filling it with His glory. All he can honestly say is that the earth itself appears to shine; recording that radiance is the farthest he can go in the direction of prayer. That is why the language of Heaney's epiphanies is consistently negative, a matter of warding off conclusions and explanations. His sacred moments are those when "Nothing prevailed, whatever was in store/Witnessed itself already taking place/In a time marked by assent and by hiatus."

"Nothing prevailed" might be the Heideggerian poet's description of paradise: an instant of perfect restraint, where every being is allowed to be simply and wholly itself."
deschamps

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Aug 30, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Are you surprised that people don't like a religion that states that anyone that is not part of the religion is going to hell?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
Testimony to the Deity of Christ, Part 3 John 5:41-­47
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/43-31/testimony-to-the-deity-of-christ-part-3
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 30, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
Heck, I guess Sully didn't like my Sweet Lorraine, I thought it was pretty romantic, sweet, and the story amazing. Oh, well.

.....

Part of Christianity's problem is that it always seems to have its foot on the brake regarding just about anything concerning progress in 21st century civilization.

.....

Here's a great debate, a blast from the past...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtH3Q54T-M8

The is versus ought issue, among others, is covered. I thought Pat Churchland was right on to point out the problems with the popular phrase "you can't derive an ought from an is." When people evoke this phrase, just what do they mean? Hmm...

Sam Harris scores another A+ of course.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 30, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
Sam Harris scores an A+??? What lecture were you looking at, Fruity? As the notes on this indicate, "Simon Blackburn was great and he simply owned Sam Harris completely."

I trust Harris has some good ideas but he's a bit like Sara Palin, dismissing moral philosophy without having read it. And trying to reduce values to facts. The root of the deception is through not accepting the limits of quantification, so quite naturally he believes "values" can be derived from empirical, material and evolutionary sources, and spelled out in clear protocols.

Except they are not derived as such - something Blackburn understands well enough to "own" your boy Harris, a gentile, hair-gelled, blow-dried posterboy for pop neuroscience. Again with some solid ideas when he doesn't try and overreach his own insight.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 30, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Hey, it's the six o'clock hour, why aren't you at sangha? ;)

.....

Curious, are you accessing through American internet or North Korean internet? because the link notes over here read, in part...

"If human morality is an evolutionary adaptation and if neuroscientists can identify specific brain circuitry governing moral judgment, can scientists determine what is, in fact, right and wrong?"

.....

By the way, in this "great debate" there is some allusion to the great Hume you might find interesting, perhaps you shouldn't DISS it so soon, really.
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
Rocky Raccoon stepped in his room only to find people who came from pond scum ......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 30, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
If human morality is an evolutionary adaptation and if neuroscientists can identify specific brain circuitry governing moral judgment, can scientists determine what is, in fact, right and wrong?


That's assuming that there is a specific, across-the-board right and wrong. Look at the gassing deal in Syria and what the US gov. is considering and tell me what your brain circuitry says about what to do, specifically.

If everything was so easy. I'd hate to have to make those decisions on what or what not to do in that case. Maybe Harris has some good ideas. He's certainly a bright enough guy.

JL
WBraun

climber
Aug 31, 2013 - 12:26am PT
Jones agreed and pointedly rejected intelligent design as a legitimate scientific theory

Of course ....

What kind of intelligence does one expect from someone who thinks they came from pond scum by chance ......
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 31, 2013 - 09:44am PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 31, 2013 - 10:07am PT
Let's go kill some.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 31, 2013 - 10:14am PT
"Hate" seems to be the prominent, operable noun/verb in all religions.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 31, 2013 - 10:32am PT
why does everyone hate christianity so much?



Well, the original OP isn't quite correct. Not everyone hates Christianity, but there is a hatred toward it in the world no doubt.

The reason is the truth is not in them. They hate the truth. Lucifer and his minions hate G-d and will do anything to work against G-d.

It is a cosmic war, and people, mankind gets caught in the middle. People are influenced by G-d or Lucifer. You can't serve two masters, as Yeshua said.

This is just one example ...

The 9th of AV – An excerpt from The Cosmic Chess Match!
Posted by lamarzulli on April 25, 2012
http://lamarzulli.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-9th-of-av-an-excerpt-from-the-cosmic-chess-match/


There has always been a cosmic hatred toward G-d's people. Lucifer hates the Jews, hates Yeshua, hates Israel, hates Christians, hates the Holy Bible. He has even used one against the other to bring them down. If you find that you have these feelings too, then ask yourself why? Who is giving you this cosmic hatred?

There's your answer. Time to switch camps. Lucifer and all his minions and those who follow them lose in the end. G-d wipes them out. Locks Lucifer away for 1000 years. Then shortly thereafter to eternal punishment. You might want to change sides and fight for truth while you still can.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 31, 2013 - 11:00am PT
zzzzz....


I don't hate Christianity, but incessant bible babble is a huge bore and an intellectual cop out.
WBraun

climber
Aug 31, 2013 - 11:51am PT
Why are you trying to convince yourself?

Mental speculators convincing themselves guessing what Go-B is thinking.

How utterly stupid .....
WBraun

climber
Aug 31, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
You're already convinced you are stupid?

:-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 09:43am PT
Astrologically and considering the Jewish Feasts on the Jewish calendar, 2014/2015 is going to be a very interesting Jewish year.

Is HaShem telling the world to wake-up!??? I think so. It's not the end of this dispensation, it isn't the second coming of Yeshua yet, however he is sending a clear sign that things are going to happen soon. Be ready. Stand watch. Get right with G-d. G-d is gracious. He wants the World to know he's coming back soon. The day of Salvation is at hand.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."



Genesis 1:14 (KJV)
"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: ..."


Yeshua warned us, ...

Luke 21:25-28 (NIV)
"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The End of the Age
http://www.acts17-11.com/end.html






Great article!

Pray 4 Zion: The Coming Blood Moons
http://www.pray4zion.org/TheComingBloodMoons.html




High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 1, 2013 - 11:58am PT

Religion... Together we can find a cure.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/07/21/this-atheist-t-shirt-is-perfect/

This is too important to sit on the sidelines.

Participate. Get involved.

"Be the change you seek in the world."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 1, 2013 - 12:06pm PT

Christian

"One rain-wet Christian on a rail fence
is better than ten angels in the Kingdom of Heaven."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 1, 2013 - 12:08pm PT

Slave

"One rain-wet Slave on a rail fence
is better than ten angels in the Kingdom of Heaven."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Are we not all slaves to our Masters?

Are we not all paid workers to our bosses?

But if your boss tells you to deny Yeshua, deny your faith, renounce your faith, are you supposed to do as he/she requests? No.

Again, there is much more to it than just one simple verse pulled out of context.

If you really don't know the context, don't understand the historical Judaism, don't know Hebrew and Greek, then yes you can come away with some very outlandish interpretations. Also times were very different than they are today. We are pansies compared to what they had to put up with and do, day to day.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 1, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
Sullly said:

"Science does not know its debt to imagination.
Emerson"... and deleted...

Marlow said:

"... and imagination does not know its debt to techne...
Marlow"
WBraun

climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Version 2.0 written by the mental gymnastic speculators.

There is no God as we originated by chance in a pond scum.

Retarded idiots posing as intelligent making the world as stupid as they are.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 1, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
.. and imagination does not know its debt to techne...

What came first, imagination or technique?? Interesting question, not to say that first or "efficient" causes tell us much. Causes themselves might be overstated as real things.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
What came first, imagination or technique??

Depends on what's the consensus behind those terms.

Provisionally I'll offer this crude flow chart:

Pond sc#m-----> imagination----->technique
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 1, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
JLo, this might be right in your wheelhouse.

Please change Sam Harris's mind and take his money!

So I would like to issue a public challenge. Anyone who believes that my case for a scientific understanding of morality is mistaken is invited to prove it in 1,000 words or less.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-moral-landscape-challenge1

In the meantime, here's a link to a real fine, laid-back lecture at Oxford by Sam Harris in the accompaniment of Richard Dawkins...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm2Jrr0tRXk

Somehow I had missed it!
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
This dude Sam Harris has hit on a sure fire way to boost sales of his most recent book, and interest, in general ,in himself and his intellect.
I don't mean to suggest herein lies his only motivation.

In sampling his core argument included in the above linked blog, in the FAQ, I found it highly inadequate and poorly worded . I was looking for a clear , unambiguous , and succinctly stated assertion--- which ,conspicuously ,was missing.
This may be baldly intended so as to lead the interested individual on to his book about Morality, wherein presumably the real skinny on his ideas would be forthcoming .
In fact any potential contender's--especially for the $20,ooo-- first order of business would be to get inside this dudes head by reading all his books and articles.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
Harris is simply repackaging what philosophers have held for years. Take a few flippin' philosophy classes you lab coat beakers. Stdy the humanities for Christ sake

The game here is not to enlighten oneself by attending a few night school courses, but rather to get thine penurious mitts on this dude's twenty thou.

BTW probably being in the scientific camp will be of no avail here, since the Harris argument is originating from that side. Unless one took a thoroughly devil's advocate ,mercenary approach ; which would be more interesting, if it could be made to work, but also much more difficult.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
The mystery of the triune nature of HaShem Adonai Elohim (i.e. G-d)...


John.14 (KJV)
[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
[4] And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
[5] Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
[13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
[22] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
[24] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
[25] These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[27] Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
[28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
[29] And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
[30] Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
[31] But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.



They who hate Yeshua HaMashiach hate the truth because the truth is not in them.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 1, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
Causes themselves might be overstated as real things

Good try, JL, but diverting this thread into something more philosophical than religious/antireligious rants may be a lost cause. The Duck is correct: we are all stooped.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 1, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Ward,
Harris is simply repackaging what philosophers have held for years...
You're stooping to quote YT commenters now, or what?

Did you even watch the piece or read the book? It's anything but repackaging. "Lab coat beakers?" lol
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 1, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
So I would like to issue a public challenge. Anyone who believes that my case for a scientific understanding of morality is mistaken is invited to prove it in 1,000 words or less.
-


Why not broaden the question/challenge and ask: Anyone who believes that my case for a scientific understanding of(fill in the blank) is mistaken is invited to prove it in 1,000 words or less.

This is Harris' real belief, that scientific investigation has no limits per the objective and subjective, material and experiential worlds. What Harris is basically saying is that "I believe in scientism. Prove me wrong." But you must use science itself to prove me wrong. That is, by way of the following true methods, prove to me these very methods are false.

Wank on, Harris . . .

JL

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Did you even watch the piece or read the book? It's anything but repackaging. "Lab coat beakers?" lol

I was quoting a poster who subsequently deleted their post. If you had carefully read my post you might have surmised that, but I doubt it.

Sin in haste , repent in leisure.

And no I have not read the book, as you haven't either. It may not be worth it , unless I were to take the challenge.

Words out that jgill has challenged Harris to a bouldering comp, however.
Bonus points on style.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 1, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
as you haven't either

This is incorrect.

Sam's on a roll. All he needs now is a name for his "science of well-being." In this fast paced, brave new world, one should be along sooner than later.
WBraun

climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
Sam Harris = fool.

He shoots himself in the foot were meaning is derived from measurement.

Lab coats telling the living entity whether or not it is happy.

Stupid lab coats think they can measure everything and quantify it.

What do you expect from them since they grew from pond scum by pure chance.

Stupid .....

(The duck can fly more efficient and intelligent than any lab coat)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 1, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
"Morality is a subject where one can never have an end to the discussion, nor should one, because man, and society, are moving targets. Science can climb on board but the illusion of having it one day find some finality is what is dangerous - and delusional."

A mechanistic belief in reality would insit that there must be a universal, one-size-fits-all moral code, since we are machines after all, and said code can be like that handbook you have in your glove box per the make and model of your ride.

This is the desire to standardize a moral approach based on us humans being a variable lot within limits not so broad that a fixed morality will not apply.

By demand, such a code would be generic, to make room for mechanical variations, and the smart money says such a code would be eerily close to the Nobel Eight Fold Path, or most any other code stressing the virtues of honesty, truth, compassion, etc.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 1, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
A mechanistic belief in reality would insit that there must be a universal, one-size-fits-all moral code,

This is just plum crazy, proof in the pudding that Jlo's off in the deep end. Lost.

This is the desire to standardize a moral approach

There is no such desire. Caricature per usual tripe.

Harris seeks a study of morality for its bearing on wellbeing, indeed, the art and science of wellbeing. Simple and straight-forward as this. He'd be the first to tell any one there is no cure for entropic life whose existence is founded and shaped by natural selection.

Life is not cured, it is managed. So, too, wellbeing, as well. To this end, science can inform our moral judgments. That's the point which is clear enough to those who can see through the mess, and oh yes, the crazy caricature, naysaying and denial of the anti-progressive, anti-science rabble.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 2, 2013 - 12:06am PT
I know better than to try and pry you out of your perspective, Fruity - that a true moral code can be arrrived at through a scientific investigation redolent of facts and figures and empirical data. The end game being a moral algorithm used for calculating the liklihood of fostering well-being through so and so behaviors, attitudes, and so forth.

None of this is overstatement or charicature, it is simply what Harris is saying or insinuating.

The problem is that well being is not a high enough goal for human beings because it settles for a mechanistic end zone. That's setting the bar way too low for everyone but a staunch physicalist. What makes a life worthwhile is self-mastery, consciousness, transcendence, and compassion/connection. These are rarely if ever arrived at without many dark nights of the soul, so to speak, and many failures. Every one dies; every heart is broken. Trying to avoid these dips in the road is spiritually and psychologically counter-productive. Growing pains and all that.

What's more, contentment and well being are not the same things.

For some, wall climbing is the closest they will ever get to a transcendent experience. Little of the time on a wall can be equated with well-being, or ease of being. And the exhileration on the summit is oftentimes just the knowing that the fear and suffering and toil are over. But the experience can be enormously rewarding and even life changing in some cases because it can foster self mastery, increased consciousness, transcendence (those long nights), and compassion for yourself and your partners. It can humanize you.

All told, the human journey is too complex to ever arrive at a clear one-way avenue toward living. Trying to objctify our subjective lives is a fine goal if medical health is the aim, but medical health does not at all vouchsafe a life worth living.

Like I said, Harris might be able to draw some general parameters for "managing" our lives but the idea that they will be some radical reformation of existing life strategies is not something anyone believes in the human development movement, broad as that is.

We can appreciate Harris' desire to have some objective criteria for a meaningful life but this is probably going to be something like the "Ten inviolate rules for writing," which might be out there, but nobody knows what they are. Harris insists that science can supply radically intelligent and scientific new ones to supplant the old ones, drawn from demonic Abrahamic religions sources and other shakey stuff.

My simple question is: Like what? What is one of Harris' scientifically derived prescriptions for living? Not some philosophy on how to derive said prescriptions, but the prescriptions themselves, the brand now ones, the pure and true and genuine stuff. The very gold he keeps promising. Kindly produce one ingot if you please.

JL

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 2, 2013 - 12:36am PT


The Christian fear of the pagan outlook has damaged the whole consciousness of man.

D. H. Lawrence
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 2, 2013 - 12:38am PT


Christianity has made of death a terror which was unknown to the gay calmness of the Pagan.

Ouida
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2013 - 12:50am PT
I think Harris was pretty critical of the ancient society's. maybe even hateful.
Jus because they didn't have electricity or cars or TVs doesn't give you insight to their intelligence. They were jus motivated in a different direction. For Pete's sakes the writings in the bible are far more intelligent than anything Harris said. But primarily look how tightly knit those people together ran their villages and cities. EVERYONE worked to help each other out. And everyone knew each others buisness through talking. Without a cell phone. And they did it mostly without government. I live in a small town that is so segregated by biases it makes me want to puke. Most people don't even know their neighbors. No I think intelligence has to do with being coherent with ur environment. It's not about how many numbers you can hold in ur head. Harris brought up "common sense" a few times. To help his audience get past a few of his unprovable arguments. I wonder where he thinks common sense stems from? And if it only comes from intelligence? I think scientific endeavors are exciting and fun an all. But I'd gladly trade them all to go back to a tightly knit village sittin around a camp fire shootin the sh#t. That's intelligence
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2013 - 01:31am PT
Wow Locker
What's with the list of top 100 truths of the universe?
Are they speakin to ya tonight? Anyone of those can get you face to face with God.
Jus Ask.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 2, 2013 - 09:55am PT
^^^^^zzzzz....^^^^^
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 2, 2013 - 10:41am PT
Blu wrote: But I'd gladly trade them all to go back to a tightly knit village sittin around a camp fire shootin the sh#t. That's intelligence


The good old days when the world was flat and Noah was floating around in his ark. Yeah screw science.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 2, 2013 - 10:58am PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 2, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
What makes a life worthwhile is self-mastery, consciousness, transcendence, and compassion/connection.

Of course. And a scientific understanding, by and large, enhances this.

In climbing. In games and sports in general. In human interests in general. In safety and security matters. In lifestyles. In life in general.

This has been the message, at bottom, all along.

contentment and well being are not the same things

They can be. Depending on one's point of view, context and definition. It's a shame when souls fail to meet over a thing like basic languaging.

For some, wall climbing is the closest they will ever get to a transcendent experience. Little of the time on a wall can be equated with well-being, or ease of being. And the exhileration on the summit is oftentimes just the knowing that the fear and suffering and toil are over. But the experience can be enormously rewarding and even life changing in some cases because it can foster self mastery, increased consciousness, transcendence (those long nights), and compassion for yourself and your partners.

I don't disagree with what you say here. Because I see the context in which you're saying it, I put myself in that point of view, and because I don't nit pick, I choose not to nit pick, because I purposely give to the words you choose to use some flexibility. One can do this not just with climbing subjects but also science subjects.

All told, the human journey is too complex to ever arrive at a clear one-way avenue toward living.

No disagreement here. We have consensus. :)

.....

Like I said, Harris might be able to draw some general parameters for "managing" our lives but the idea that they will be some radical reformation of existing life strategies is not something anyone believes in the human development movement, broad as that is.

1) That's what he and others are in fact describing - general parameters (or models) for managing human lives.

2) Many who (even long ago) pushed past the antiquated theologies of their parents' religions - in part because of their embrace of The Scientific Story - would consider this movement a "radical reformation" even in terms of life strategies.

Like many others, I live my life in terms of life strategies. Apart from religions and theologies, just doing this (free of supernatural beliefs) could be considered "radical reformation." Best of all, nor does any of this modern change or movement preclude self-actualization, higher consciousness, or the other sought-after experiences you earlier cited.

.....

Like what? ... The very gold he keeps promising. Kindly produce one ingot if you please.

Apart from this caricature and apart from Harris, there have been countless prescriptions, including scientific ones, advanced in the interest of the "human development movement."

Too many to count.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2013 - 02:44pm PT

What makes a life worthwhile is self-mastery, consciousness, transcendence, and compassion/connection.

Of course. And a scientific understanding, by and large, enhances this.

Cool, then you should be able to prove it then?

Note: I bet you can't without watchin TV and posting a utube link, or a cartoon. Oh, maybe that's what you mean by "scientific enhancement"!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Sep 2, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Really easy to bash all religions and dwell in you nihilism. Tough guys to make such a bold stance!

I'd like to see you people confront Muslims in the same manner. Buddhists are too easy. Tell a Muzzie to take Allah and go f*ck himself.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 2, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Boo hoo hoo
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 2, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
In my world religions are supernaturalisms.

Supernaturalisms are criticized because they don't accurately reflect reality. They're only "bashed" - and rightly so - insofar as their outdated beliefs lead to needless divisiveness and bloodshed.

Divisiveness and bloodshed. Of the very sort we behold in history, including recent history, and in which we see in our news headlines every day including this one.

Better it is to live in that special combination of ignorance / illusion than nihilism, is that your point?

Or... is your point...

Christians are pussies and they should be more militant like Muslims, stand up for their beliefs, defend their God Jehovah and smite the infidel because that's what God wants because the Bible says so.

So give it a go, Most Courageous One, set an example and then we'll all see how it works for you. ;)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 2, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
I'd rather see a Muslim go a few rounds with Klimmer, GoB and Blu. That could be mildly entertaining.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Sep 2, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
Supernaturalisms are criticized because they don't accurately reflect reality. They're only "bashed" - and rightly so! - insofar as their outdated beliefs lead to needless divisiveness and bloodshed.

Wow, you are so smart! You know best, right?

And we should coddle militant Muzzies because they are brutal and militant? Nice standard for how to judge society!

You're a f*#king idiot and are part of the problem.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 2, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
What makes a life worthwhile is self-mastery, consciousness, transcendence, and compassion/connection.

And then,




















































You're dead!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 2, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
The great forests

"Man gets lost inside himself,
a child scared of the dark
in the black forest at night.
And be sure:
the great forests shall endure
for always,
while your thought's frail markings of yourself -
the human image -
shall crumble away and perish,
become one with earth and darkness again
like the skeleton of a bird in the bog."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 2, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
Not sure how I missed The West Wing (1998-2006) bitd, maybe I watched Star Trek instead?

But to the OP question, here's President Bartlet giving his answer in season 2...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD52OlkKfNs

Touche.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 2, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
God, politics: Fuc$k that Sh&t just pat me on the head and tell me I am a good boy/girl feed me and I will shoot at anything.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 2, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
Malemute,

stopped it 40 seconds in or so! we happen to be watching the series on netflix and I was afraid it was going to be a spoiler. Don't want that! Looked to be another poignant scene though, so now I'll look forward to it.

.....

Just how specialized is science nowadays? Here's a hint:

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/august/ear-bone-conduction-080513.html

In comparison, how specialized is Abrahamic religion?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 3, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
The earth will win. 4.54 billion years old and going thru a temporary hiccup of human degradation. A minor interruption that will not last nearly as long as the dominion of the dinosaurs.
The earth's healing powers are strong and in a twink of geologic time the forces of nature will have covered up most evidence of our destructive era.....thank God! Oops, that doesn't make any sense.
WBraun

climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
Science will win because it works.

Yes.

But modern material only science will lose because it's missing the root cause.

Thus modern material scientists will ultimately remain stupid to complete knowledge ......
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 3, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
LuckyNeck

Trad climber
the basement of Lou's Tavern
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:24am PT
Science will win because it works.

Yes.

But modern material only science will lose because it's missing the root cause.

Thus modern material scientists will ultimately remain stupid to complete knowledge ......

Werner is wise.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:45am PT
Thanks Cosmic!
That's a good one. I'm gonna show that one at the PTA meeting tomorrow.
Evolution is a faith based science. No facts or proofs. And should be illegal to be taught in elementary schools. Only "ADAPTATION" with its proofs should be taught to children.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:46am PT
Three in a row.

See here, American anti-science attitude.

Remember, where America drops out, China or India will drop in.

America will do what it can till its destiny is revealed to it.

.....

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/logic-vs-ray-comfort/
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:45am PT
Evolution is a faith based science.

Oy. Doesn't present a cogent argument; just makes you sound kind of silly.

Gravity is just a scentific theory, but I'm not going to seriously challenge its' validity on myself. The whole it's just a theory thing is based on most people not knowing the basic constructs or methods of science. A scientific theory doesn't mean somebody was staring at their navel one day and came up with a theory. Sad really and accounts for why we become ever less competitive in the world in terms of scientific research and invention (the other factor being the perversion of science by corporatocracy).

Also, my five year old grandson knows the distinction between literal and figurative, something many (most?) Christians and Muslims have a hard time figuring out.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:03am PT
Also, my five year old grandson knows the distinction between literal and figurative, something many (most?) Christians and Muslims have a hard time figuring out.

Oy. Well if your not able to teach on a figurative intelligent designer. When the evidence is all around us in nature and inside our bodies. Then you shouldn't be able to teach in a public school the figurative theory of Darwin's evolution that man came from pond scum.
Schools should have to stick with the literal!
Biased people usually have a hard time figuring that one out.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:32am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogta8alHiU

Better on this thread than another I suppose
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:57am PT
Schools should have to stick with the literal!

I'm down with that. Problem for you is the bible is largely allegory and science is based on observable and reproducible events (aka: literal).
dirtbag

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:32am PT
Oy. Well if your not able to teach on a figurative intelligent designer. When the evidence is all around us in nature and inside our bodies. Then you shouldn't be able to teach in a public school the figurative theory of Darwin's evolution that man came from pond scum.
Schools should have to stick with the literal!
Biased people usually have a hard time figuring that one out.

Stupid, ignorant sh#t like this is why people are sick and tired of Christianity.

Ever read the first amendment?

Doubtful.

Doubtful you have ever read much beyond your Bible study handouts.

Feel free to put your kids in all the bible babble classes you wish, but keep your indoctrination out of public schools.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 4, 2013 - 09:41am PT
Werner wrote: Thus modern material scientists will ultimately remain stupid to complete knowledge ......


And you will still be burdened by fact that you don't know what complete knowledge is. Religious types always thinking they know, when all they got is hot air.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 4, 2013 - 09:59am PT
"Faith based" simply means believing in something without any good reasons....no need for evidence, logic, proof etc.....faith is all you need bro.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:58am PT
You're a good egg, Malemute.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:16am PT
Well Good Morning spreaders of Hate!

I see ur already up watchin TV and reading your comics.

You'all should go outside today and see what Intelligent Design has done for ya.
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:17am PT
LOL ......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:22am PT
A scientific theory doesn't mean somebody was staring at their navel one day and came up with a theory.
--

I keep hearing this term, "Staring at your navel" and I wonder what people mean by it, what cognitive process people have in their minds about what they are saying here, exactly. Or if, as I suspect, folks are not speaking from any direct, personal experience, providing empirical evidence for whatever, and in fact they are just guessing just as creationists are guessing that evolution is "wrong" having never really looked at the data.

I say this not to be snarky, but because if people DID understand what "navel gazing" referred to, and had some experience along those lines, this thread would be a lot more interesting and ironically would involve far less speculation IMO.

JL
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:37am PT
So locker is a mistake.

Better take a vacation locker since everything you do is a mistake ....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:59am PT
A scientific prescription?

"Well-being is actually a skill"

You should try to acquire it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/03/mindfulness-meditation-burnout_n_3860963.html

.....

QT What does "scientific" mean?
ANS It depends on whom you ask.

a) Pro-Science group...

scientific: (a) designating or of science (b) science-based or science-informed

b) Anti-Science group...

scientific: designating or of science entirely
dirtbag

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Well Good Morning spreaders of Hate!

I see ur already up watchin TV and reading your comics.

Boo hoo hoo. You bible babblers are holding back this country.

Preach stupidity?

Try to make your stupid, retro dogma into public policy?

Then don't bitch when you get called on it.

squishy

Mountain climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Words have clear definitions, it is not subjective or "depends on who you ask". Language is an even playing field, words have meanings and it's not a dynamic environment as the republicans might have you believe (they try and redefine words all the time, the best example is the word "liberal"). Please use the correct definitions of words, it's just about the last thing some debates can find solid ground to debate on. People on the losing side of any debate are usually the 1st to muddle the definitions of words or try and redefine them.

sci·en·tif·ic
ˌsīənˈtifik/
adjective
adjective: scientific

1.
based on or characterized by the methods and principles of science.
"the scientific study of earthquakes"
synonyms: technological, technical; More
research-based, knowledge-based, empirical
"scientific research"
relating to or used in science.
"scientific instruments"
informal
systematic; methodical.
"how many people buy food in an organized, scientific way?"
synonyms: systematic, methodical, organized, well-organized, ordered, orderly, meticulous, rigorous; More
exact, precise, accurate, mathematical;
analytical, rational
"you need to approach it in a more scientific way"


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Words have clear definitions, it is not subjective or "depends on who you ask".

LOL!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:50pm PT

Because the Bible is full of some of the vilest, nastiest, most immoral acts and behavior you'll ever read, both on the part of the "heroes" and on the part of the so-called Good Lord.

That's cause it's a depiction of mans handy work!

But if you actually stand up and take a look around its way worse today!

Mostly because we neglect what we learn from the past. Instead we focus on the future and science to bring us more efficient ways to pleasure ourselves and to segregate classes of society. And faster more efficient ways to torture and kill people because that don't agree
with the power holders philosophy. And if that's not enough, now with the help of science
we have the power to rape and pillage the planet till death do us part.

If man is from nature, what have we done to show respect to that? Shouldn't we be trying to promote the everlasting life of earth? Instead of just take, and take, and take?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
You bible babblers are holding back this country.

No shi't. If only there were a New World to ship off to, I'd be the first to sign up. But alas one world's all we got now. :(

We're all just going to have to suck it up and learn (by way of modern life strategies) to weather gross ignorance like we do earthquakes, hurricanes and forest fires. At least till some (forced) solution comes about I guess.

How about the realization that there are probably a few per cent in the Middle East (modern secular camp) with whom I share more common ideology than I do with a few American climbers around here? Damn, what a mess.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:35pm PT

Words have clear definitions, it is not subjective or "depends on who you ask".

Try this one;
Evolution; from Latin, the act of unrolling, unfolding or opening.

Some would have you believe that evolution means algae created another plant, which created another plant, which created another plant, and so on, and on and on. Until a plant created an animal. Which created another animal, which created another animal which inturn
created man. And from that Miracle of algae all consciousness and emotions got created.

This isn't the definition of evolution.

It's the definition of magic.

Evolutionist aren't scientist. Their magicians!
Excuse me while I pull this DNA out of my hat. Presto!
If you don't fall for the trick you must be ignorant. LOL
Jus keep drawing cartoons that'll get the kids on ur side
dirtbag

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
Another completely ignorant post by Blue.

He really should be embarrassed by the stuff he posts.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:44pm PT

I wonder, Blu's favorite book?

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
This isn't the definition of evolution.

It's the definition of magic.

Have you read a book about evolution? Heard a lecture? Studied more than middle school biology?

It seems like magic just like an iPhone seems like magic - to a caveman!

What you describe could also be applied to the simple act of a person growing up from a child to an adult. Holy cow, that person ingested food, chemically reprocessed it, made it part of their own body, and then increased their size over time. It's Magic! YES, IT'S MAGIC!!!!!! Crap, and the sun is coming up. IT'S MAGIC.

The theory of evolution is based on a lot of observations and reproducible experiments. You can go, if you wanted to make an effort, and watch some evolution take place in a lab.

Dave
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
You'all should go outside today and see what Intelligent Design has done for ya

Just did. And this is what I saw:


Pretty intelligent design for the early 70s.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Excuse me while I pull this DNA out of my hat. Presto!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:11pm PT

yeah, even a subject as basic, as elementary, as simple biology, you could not even "get" it
I didn't get it then cause I didn't go. It happened to be my 8:00 am class and I'd rather be surfing. Member the swells of 79'? El Cap point hit 9 ft. Shaun Thomson was there for a week.
What would would you rather do, read about something you can't even see, or bust barrels with The Man!?

But now I sure have a grip on biology and evolution from watching ur vids and reading your comic books. And I tkink my description of evolution is exactly what you have in your head.
IF NOT, YOU tell me how you see it. In your own words!

Anyone?

Norton?

Norton?

Anyone?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
Anyone?

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Somewhere en Las Pampas...where life will make you a believer.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
...where life will make you a believer... Nice!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
It's good to hope in god?

Been a while since high school spanish class.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
Words have clear definitions, it is not subjective or "depends on who you ask".


Words are not like math or figures, amigo. Words refer to other things besides material stuff, for which a word might have a clear relationship to said thing. For instance, rock means a mineral. Chair means something we sit in. These are not moving targets, mutable things that change over time, or even moment to moment. Such associations to worlds presume a pretty much fixed material reality other there for which the worlds apply.

Move the words to the experiential realm, in which the humans involved are not fixed, but are fluid beings always in process, and words like sad, happy, joyous, free, pensive, and so forth are not only subjective, but their very meaning very much depends on who you ask. Subjectivity is a shared reality so there is a generic likeness to what "sad" means. But the definition is never totally clear because the experience the word describes is itself a moving target.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
...and have also known quite a few really NICE and COOL, "Idiots" (So to speak)...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Well Good Morning spreaders of Hate!

Hate is a strong word. I don't see any haters around here. Just because some postings here aren't soft and cuddly doesn't mean they're hateful.

I may think that many of the positions and arguments here are shallow, simple, irrational, deceitful, untenable, and even silly, but it hardly translates to hating the person presenting them. My philosophy is compassion and non-judgement; the core of what both Jesus and Buddha called us to be.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
Thanks Bruce
I've read all that before and now again. 98% of it is speculation. No proofs!
The only proof in there is when we try to cross mutate a one species to another.
Like between a horse and a ass. We get an unbreedable sterile mutant.

You gotta have alota faith to believe the other 98%






khanom
Blue, I'm seriously embarrassed for you.

Why? Cause I demand to proceed with an open mind?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Like between a horse and a ass. We get an unbreedable sterile mutant.

Unbreedable? I dunno about that. I've met quite a few horses asses that had horses asses for parents and more horses asses for children.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:47pm PT

My philosophy is compassion and non-judgement; the core of what both Jesus and Buddha called us to be.

Def: Compassion= sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

Going along and agreeing with everything someone says is not compassion. Compassion is shown through love and discipline.

I'm here to try and help our fellow brothers up out of the pond scum.

If you keep saying over and over that Oswald killed Kennedy. Pretty soon someone is going to believe you. When we all know who pulled the trigger.

I can't believe that someone could read Bruce's long post and confirm the idea of cross mutation. It's not scientific without any material proof!! It's ONLY Speculative Theory

Can we even agree on that?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
I didn't know until a few years ago that my ancestors hailed from Patagonia...
I guess I was destined to be a climber.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:53pm PT

"and Locker, that pisses me off, that he has played us like chumps for his amusement"...

Norton, you've NEVER brought a smile to my face.

Edit: Except maybe that time when you said that you never leave the house without ur gun and permit. That brang on a smirk¡
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
^^^ I think you know better than that!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 4, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
Ladybird

"One rain-wet Ladybird on a rail fence
is better than ten angels in the Kingdom of Heaven."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
re: culture wars

"One reason our human species has dominated the planet instead of the Neanderthals is that our culture was better than theirs. The Neanderthals actually had bigger brains and bigger bodies than we did, so in one to one combat they would likely have prevailed. But we were better at culture, and so when our ancestors moved into areas where Neanderthals lived, the Neanderthals lost out. We had a better system than they did for survival and reproduction. We took their lands and ate their lunch. Today they are extinct while we own the planet."

Roy Baumeister
Is There Anything Good About Men?


Be fruitful and multiply.
Take their lands and eat their lunch.

Beware.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 4, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
Well, maybe they deserved it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/evolution/8104939/Neanderthals-really-were-sex-obsessed-thugs.html

Everybody look at your hands.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
I realized that he had NO interest in our answers.



This is why I quite drilling people about spiritual stuff. Materialists are interested in material, stuff, facts and figures. No harm in that at all. We have technology to thank for their mindsets. On the other hand, trying to knead their brainpans into places they neither want to go or can go is a waste of time.

Real interest is measured in how far a person will go on their own to find out more, with an interest in become a participant in whatever it is. This is how you find out what's there, by bringing some enthusiasm to the adventure.

Imagine looking into rock climbing with the intention of trying to debunk it. Everything you found would be drawn through a negative sieve so to speak. If you have a real interest, you forego the bullshit (there's always bullshit if human's are involved) and go with the real stuff - if it's there. But the interest has to be there or it's a no-go.

Fundamentalists in either science (scientism) or religion are not interested in answers. Their interested in finding things to shore up their existing beliefs.

JL
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
OK,Blue. I was referring to compassion as a deeper and more mature practice than the dollar store definition.

How about loving-kindness?

"Loving-kindness is a specific kind of love conceptualized in various religious traditions, both among theologians and religious practitioners, as a form of love characterized by acts of kindness." ~per Wikipedia
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
Science is the search for answers...religion just think it knows all the answers.


JL...like Werner, your style of telling us what we don't know is weak, without fluidity and demeaning. Must be a "valley" thing. :-)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
You tap dance and then say something sage like 'try again' or you'd get all condescending and say 'you have to do the work.'


It amazes me that in an audience of mostly science types, which requires a massive amount of "work" in the form of study to achieve any modicum of mastery, that suggesting experiential adventures also require work is somehow a condescending statement.

Why I think some people here are touchy about such a statement is that it implies they don't "know" something, which they read as them being stupid, though when I read some bit of hard core science I don't understand, I don't feel myself stupid - though I often am - but rather I acknowledge that I likely never studied the subject at depth (like years of study) and anything less means I ain't gonna get it. This is perhaps something not realized by folks not jiggy with Mind studies, that they require actual work to ever find traction, as opposed to someone offering up "clear" (discursive) information you can noodle with your brain (no new work).

And of course the problem that the experiential can never be fitted into neat, quantitative bits of concrete information, anything less being bullshit or "tap dancing."

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 4, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
And of course the problem that the experiential can never be fitted into neat, quantitative bits of concrete information, anything less being bullshit or "tap dancing."


Hey, the world needs its dreamers. It only becomes a problem when the dreams turn ugly and perpetuate ignorance and misery.
Christianity's "my way or the highway to hell" falls into that category.
Screw your god, screw your devil, just grow the f*#k up already.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 4, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
Myths Over Miami: Captured on South Beach, Satan later escaped. His demons and the horrible Bloody Mary are now killing people. God has fled. Avenging angels hide out in the Everglades. And other tales from children in Dade's homeless shelters.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/1997-06-05/news/myths-over-miami/

The "secret stories" are carefully guarded knowledge, never shared with older siblings or parents for fear of being ridiculed -- or spanked for blasphemy. But their accounts of an exiled God who cannot or will not respond to human pleas as his angels wage war with Hell is, to shelter children, a plausible explanation for having no safe home, and one that engages them in an epic clash.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
It's a revealing looking into the invisible word of angels and demons and what the Bible reveals about their activities.

Yeah, it reveals a lot about the gullible dopes who believe this fairy tale nonsense.
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
We know dirtbag hides in the closet reading that book .....

:-)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
Pastor Greg Laurie reminds us that the devil is the master of enticement...

In particular I like...

how this vast medley of players - from go-B and Blu right here at this choss pile to al qaeda and Syria and Islamists on the international world stage - each in their own way by their zillion examples (e.g., mindless posts, smiting infidels, oppressing women, anti-science rants, etc.) are in effect supporting the cause, OUR cause - i.e., the modern scientific secular progressive movement!

When your opponent is self-imploding you get out of their way.


Like!

.....

Get a load of this girl, rock texture and sequences!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDx98Ax0kfo


O to be a skinny green-boned 20-something again!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
If history and science have taught us anything, it is that passion and desire are not the same as truth.
E. O. Wilson
dirtbag

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
We know dirtbag hides in the closet reading that book .....

:-)

Nah, just my stack of midget porn.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
Hey, the world needs its dreamers.


I have no idea what you are referencing here??

The subjective adventures I am suggesting go the exact opposite direction to "dreaming," right into the heart of what's real right now, right here. That's why they call it "Awakening."

The mistake commonly made is to believe this awakening involves the delusional belief or hallucinating of some alternative reality that contradicts science, or that meditation et al IS science, or is trying to do science but only bungles out imagined "no-things" full of fuzzy feelings and aliens. The plain fact that it is grounded in things far more tangible then numbers or symbols is in fact dreaming, big time.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
JL, can you admit that a scientific practice of living is not necessarily scientism, the belief that science is the answer to everything?

Simple answer, please.

.....

dmt, you're welcome!

If I had my youth, I'd hit it in a second!

To think of those 3-4 times I've been to Nice and traveled the coast (as a young man without any climbing consciousness) never knowing that climbing site was there, it hurts to imagine, so I'll stop.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
JL, can you admit that a scientific practice of living is not necessarily scientism, the belief that science is the answer to everything?
-


Totally, but by scientific I would mean that you have to wrestle directly with empirical data, including experience, and during the intake phase of collecting said experiential data you have to delay trying to objectify reality till the big picture hoves to, a picture NOT available when we are discursively objectifying things. Once you have spent your time with the whole, undivided, THEN we can start trying to objectify what it all comes down to.

What I object to is an approach that insists that though objectifying parts we can grasp what is real for the whole. The very task of objectifying blinds us to the whole, focused as we are on the part. And we can only pay attention to one thing at a time - the forest or the trees, figure or ground. Both modes of inquiry are limited and are meant to be complimentary.

For instance, you presented the idea that mindfulness (Vapassana) meditation is benificial for the brain, this arrived at through psysiological markers and subjective uptake scores. Vapassana itself is not a thinking practice but rather keeping your awareness on body sensations (NOT feelings) or breath till you experience how these processes drive your thoughts. But this latter truth does not come from trying to objectify the process at the start, but only after sometimes years of practice.

So objectifying in some cases must be postponed (like postponing gratification) till you have sufficient empirical data and know how perception and objectifying actually works, from the inside. Drawing a science of living regime from the outside is drawing from too shallow a well, IME. But it's all that our evaluating mind can handle. That's the rub with all of this stuff. I'm brayed at for "tap dancing" when what I'm really saying is that you have to spend time on the inside yourself, and all the answers you get from the outside are of little value because the experience has to be yours to make sense. THEN we can talk about it.

JL

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
The subjective adventures I am suggesting go the exact opposite direction to "dreaming," right into the heart of what's real right now, right here. That's why they call it "Awakening."

Dreams are "subjective adventures" and "here and now" experiences too. There's little or no inner dialogue or classification or judgement, none of those "discursive" bugaboos going on, we just take what comes, and in the moment, that content is what's subjectively real to us. Lots of studies have shown that sleep-deprived subjects begin to spontaneously hallucinate, implying that for some reason, we actually need to dream. It's been linked to the formation of memories for one thing, but it seems there's probably more to it than just that.

“Sleep is the best meditation.” ― Dalai Lama XIV
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
Dreams are subjective adventures, but they are still mental content, stuff coming and going and in the esoteric sense they are unreal = impermanent. "Awakening" in the sense I am using it is ultimately the direct realization that not only content, but perception itself is a kind of content that has to be given up and disidentified with.

It's easy to consider subjective adventures in the form of content, or things that pass through and groovy states that we enter in the process but neither are the point. That's still discursive, latching onto stuff, be it a dream or whatever. Hanging with the whole, wide open, with your awareness set on infinity like the lens of a camera - that's the hard core practice, and we have many millions of years of evolution directing us to do no such thing, which is why it is difficult. Our brains keep wanting to clamp down on some thing, some tree, so to speak, and the forest gets lost in the bargain.

JL
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Learn to be comfortable with not knowing everything, appreciate the knowledge you have, respect those that have contributed to that body of knowledge, and don't force your belief system on others...

... being human is cool since we seem to have have room in our minds to ponder the inputs from our senses before acting on those inputs.
MH2

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
Go easy on Largo. He lost a bet and he must do public service for his meditation community. I found this out inside my wide open experiential self so don't waste your discursive analytic time on parsing outside answers into discrete bits of concrete information.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
^^^^ have you been play'in with Pooh again?




TE,
and don't force your belief system on others...
It is our own choice to sit in front of these screens and flip the button on or off.
If ur a 5:12 climber and you read about a guy struggling and pissin and moanin about a 5:9
you may say its ok, jus do this or this. And every thing is smooth. But if a 5:13 climber comes on and disses the 5:12 you jus onsighted. Down rating it to 11d you might get ur feathers ruffled. Why? Reading info off a screen should be logical. If it evokes emotion, don't hit send until after you criticize yourself..
What kind of force can be can be transmitted thru a screen?
Only a spiritual one. Maybe the Holy Spirit is giving you an elbow to the abdomen?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 5, 2013 - 12:15am PT
Hey, Pooh is cool; I love Pooh! Are you a Pooh hater?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 5, 2013 - 12:35am PT
Get a load of this girl, rock texture and sequences!

Pretty darn good. But where would she be if God had not placed those bolts in the rock during creation?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 5, 2013 - 12:45am PT
Perhaps God is also evolving...
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:00am PT
Ullr returns every year...

... wax'em up!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:03am PT
Pooh will never die!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:05am PT
^^^^ have you been play'in with Pooh again?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:05am PT
Malmut, I think the XC skier is the one in the middle of all but one of the above pics...

... the ice climber is just to the left!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:19am PT
MH2. Put down that beer bong. Go to the corner. Sit yourself down. Keep your back straight. Soft focus, but eyes open, gaze downward at a 45 angle or whatever is comfortable. Watch your breath and ignore whatever comes up, moving neither to nor away from any thought, feeling (however fuzzy), insight, horror, or memory. Report back in five years, when you have something to say.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:21am PT
^^^ Yea Right! I don't think snow players are even in that pic!!
Besides knuckle dragg'in snowboarders are way above you'all
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:22am PT
And, MH2, remember that scientific observation shows long-term meditators have thicker frontal cortexes than non-meditators!!

Lazar, S.W., Kerr, C.E., Wasserman, R.H., Gray, J.R., Greve, D.N., Treadway, M.T., McGarvey, M., Quinn, B.T., Dusek, J.A., Benson, H., Rauch, S.L., Moore, C.I. & Fischl, B., 2005, Meditation experience is associated with increased cortical thickness, Neuroreport, 16(17), pp. 1893-7.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 03:04am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJYrbyYFuuU

From someone (a Cambridge biologist) who is WAY out there.

JL
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 5, 2013 - 05:47am PT
But if a 5:13 climber comes on and disses the 5:12 you jus onsighted.


I'm a 5:13 climber. As long as it's 5:13 PM not AM.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 5, 2013 - 11:21am PT
This conversation really needs to be elevated.



Here, I give you Jehova's witnesses signing why you shouldn't masturbate. Dubbed with 50 cent's "In The Club."

[Click to View YouTube Video]
squishy

Mountain climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 11:37am PT
That was funny gdavis, I needed that..
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
What about the old wive's tale warning about hair growing hair on your palms from wanking.

JL
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 5, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
The only valid reason for hating Christianity - or anyone else's religion for that matter - is bigotry. Plain and simple bigotry.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 5, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
No, Chaz, there's another reason - they can't figure out how to fly their own kite.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 5, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
If you can't go fly a kite, you can always take a hike. There's something here for everybody.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
What about the old wive's tale warning about hair growing hair on your palms from wanking.

Ifg tJhat were tr7ue ou4r haands wouyd be so covr3d in hayr it woild be difcult to type.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
The only valid reason for hating Christianity - or anyone else's religion for that matter - is bigotry. Plain and simple bigotry.

Actually, I'd call that an invalid reason.

So what you are saying is that the Jews had no valid reason to hate Christianity, the "official" religion of Nazi Germany, that was perverted into having as it's goal the eradication of all Jews, everywhere?

You are saying that it is not valid to hate a group that organizes for the purpose of attacking and persecuting you, because you don't belong to that group?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 5, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
but by scientific I would mean

(1) But you would acknowledge "scientific" as used by OTHERs might mean something different to them - that being science-based or science-informed?

you have to delay trying to objectify reality

(2) But you would acknowledge that OTHERS could find it useful to objectify, describe, or model pieces of the whole? - indeed just as science as a field has more or less done over the last couple centuries in particular.

Once you have spent your time with the whole, undivided, THEN we can start trying to objectify what it all comes down to.

(3) But you would acknowledge that there are other valid approaches to objectifying, modeling or describing how the world works? and that OTHERS might find piecemeal approaches useful or suitable to their purposes? - much as maps or topos can be drawn up in piecemeal local fashion and in this piecemeal form can be useful.

.....

What I object to is an approach that insists that though objectifying parts we can grasp what is real for the whole.

(4) But science and scientists (amateur or professional) don't "insist" on this. You disagree? As you know, what is real (let alone the fullness of it) is perceived through human perception. Thus at best it is a representation of the real, for better or worse though we hope for the better.

Objectifying parts and integrating them into wholes is a useful thing to do in a great many cases, so the fact remains, I'm still unclear as to the conflict, or conflicts, if any.


Boy the internet is a hopping hot mess today!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 5, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
What is the purpose of a "practice of living" anyhow?

a) a religious practice of living?
b) a scientific practice of living?
squishy

Mountain climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
2 KINGS 6:29 says: "So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son."

Yup, that's cannibalsim. Or, worse-than-cannibalism if you're considering the fact that he ate his own kid.

Leviticus 25:44 says: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

Yes, you read that right. It's A-OK to own slaves -- as long as they're foreigners. That may be the worst immigration policy we've ever heard.

In biblical times, your travel plans could involve mass murder. According to Deuteronomy 13:12-15, if you find that the people in the city you're visiting worship another god, you have to kill them all.

And by "all", the bible means everyone in the city. It seems a little severe but it'll certainly make your travel blog more interesting.

Ripped jeans have been in style for a while. Unfortunately for fashionistas, this particular trend comes with a first class ticket to hell. Leviticus 10:6 says: “Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people.” Question: is it the act of ripping your pants that sends you to hell? Because we bought these jeans pre-distressed. So we're good, right?

Leviticus 19:19 says: "You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle". You know all of that delicious crossbreeding that led to the Kobe steak we all love to eat? According to the Bible, it's a sin. If you're a bible purist, it's tough, stringy wild cattle or nothing at all.

Leviticus 21 has a lot to say about who is and who isn't allowed to be a priest. We all know that anyone who's had sex can't be a Catholic priest. But did you also know that the bible bans anyone with a deformity? You know who else is shut out? Anyone who has a flat nose.

Leviticus 20:10 says: "If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die."

So, just to be clear, if one spouse cheats, both spouses have to die. That's certainly adding insult to injury. We bet that people in biblical times were really great at hiding their extramarital affairs.

Leviticus 20:9 says: "Anyone who dishonors father or mother must be put to death. Such a person is guilty of a capital offense."

Talk about a zero-tolerance policy for bad behavior. On the bright side, your kids will be much better behaved. On the not-so-bright side, a grocery store temper tantrum could result in a death sentence.

Leviticus 24:16 says: "Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death."

We knew that saying the Lord's name in vain was a no-no. We didn't know that you're not supposed to say it at all.

Ezekiel 16:17 says: "You also took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them."

Don't bother reading it twice. It says exactly what you think it says. He gave her some jewelry and she made a golden...implement with it. And then she used it in her job as a prostitute. Gross.

Deuteronomy 28:53 says: "Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you."

When you're under seige, you can't exactly go out for pizza. So what do you do about food? According to the Bible, you eat your children. Why does the bible have so many stories that involve eating kids?!

Genesis 19:8: “Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”

The rules are pretty simple. If someone comes to your house and insists on assaulting someone, you should give him your virgin daughters. Because handing over your guests for sexual assault is just bad manners.

Leviticus 19:19 says: "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material." We'd like to give you a moment or two to check your labels.

90% cotton/10% rayon? Congratulations, you're a sinner. We knew that bad fashion was a crime -- just not against God.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 states: "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel, then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die."

If your husband isn't your first, you're in for trouble. Hard, stony trouble to be exact. That's a high price to pay for a little premarital fun.

Leviticus 10-11 states: "And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you."

What did shellfish ever do to anyone? It's innocent. And delicious -- especially when covered with butter...This is going to be a dealbreaker for a lot of people.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 states: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

If you're a woman and you find yourself in a church, it's time to be quiet. Have questions about the sermon? Too bad. But the Bible does say that you're allowed to ask your husband when you get home. That is, after you've made dinner and put the kids to bed.

Exodus 31:14-15 states: "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

That means no working on Sunday -- ever. Break this rule and you can be put to death. E-mail this to your boss the next time they try to lure you into weekend work. We think this applies to chores around the house too.

Mark 10:11-12 states: "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."

According to the Bible, there are no do-overs in marriage. If you get married again, you're committing adultery. That's certainly a broader definition than we're used to. We know a few celebrities who are in a lot of trouble...

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets/Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." -Deuteronomy 25:11-12.

Well that's...bizarre. According to this, wives aren't allowed to help their husbands in a fight by squeezing the other guys' "secrets". If she does, he's got to cut your hand off. That seems a little bit extreme. But squeezing a man's "secrets" is bad form so...

Leviticus 19:16 states: "Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the LORD."

This just put a lot of us -- and all of our favorite magazines -- on the Bible's "naughty" list. We're not sure what "standing against the blood of thy neighbor means". But we're pretty sure we're guilty of that too.

Leviticus 19:31 reads: "Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God."

Thinking about having your palm read? The Bible doesn't think that you should. Looks like wizards made the list too. That's a lot of Hogwarts acceptance letters that are going to have to go right back.

Deuteronomy 23:1 states: "No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose organ has been cut off may become a member of the Assembly of God."

That seems oddly specific. We had no idea that the Bible was quite so concerned about our junk. But this is pretty clear. If you've been the unfortunate victim of a groin accident, there's more bad news. You're not going to get into heaven. Talk about adding insult to injury.

Leviticus 19:27 states: "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

Who knew that the Bible was so into long hair and beards? Hippies, hipsters and beard enthusiasts are going to get a front row in heaven! That's not how we pictured it at all...

Leviticus 19:28 states: "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."

It says his name at the end, so you know he's serious. Do religious tattoos get a pass? Or are they extra blasphemous because the Bible already said not to do it?

Leviticus 11:7-8 reads: "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you."

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you."

If we're going strictly by the Bible, all of the internet is in serious trouble. But if you've gotta go anyway, getting smited while eating a pound of bacon isn't a bad way...

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 5, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
My summer reading this year has been Herodotus Historia, The first work of history by modern definition, but also the first travelogue.

Interestingly, for every tribe, ethnic group and nation he describes, he gets into the dietary habits. Pork is almost always mentioned.

It seems like in the 5th century about two thirds of groups he discuses had some restrictions around pork,and a third to half had a full on prohibition.

For example, Egyptians were forbidden to eat it except at one big barbecue (sacrifice) every year.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
(2) But you would acknowledge that OTHERS could find it useful to objectify, describe, or model pieces of the whole? - indeed just as science as a field has more or less done over the last couple centuries in particular.


It is not only useful but invaluable for working with material things. But this approach is totally bankrupt for deeper experiential realities. For instance, even the most astute examination of the brain, by the smartest machine imaginable, would never suspect sentience in said meat brain. And so it goes in the spiritual realm. Where people get bogged down is that they don't know the actual process of how perception works, and so they have no idea how discursive objectifying is limited. At the point to where the limitations are manifest is where the other modes of inquiry begin.

Another problem with studying parts and cobbling them into a provisionary whole is that you will invariably be left with a belief that the whole is no greater than the parts.

But fundamentally, we have no conflict, though for the lack of direct experience, I don't expect you to believe that experiential modes of inquiry can involve higher knowing that is totally impossible by way of quantifying. You simply can't imagine this till you see it actually played out in your life.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
even the most astute examination of the brain, by the smartest machine imaginable, would never suspect sentience in said meat brain.

True, if the machine were Uncle Fred's old beat up Cadillac.
If ,on the other hand , the machine was the IBM model that beat the two humans on Jeopardy then you are outta luck.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
True, if the machine were Uncle Fred's old beat up Cadillac.
If ,on the other hand , the machine was the IBM model that beat the two humans on Jeopardy then you are outta luck.


Think about what you're saying there, Ward old buddy.

A machine is by nature a mechanical thing. It has no reference or access to and therefore no capacity to "imagine" or postulate what subjective experience would be like and would entail. And there is nothing else inside or outside of it's mainframe that remotely resembles subjective experience. Even the smartest machine could only detect objective functioning. And unless you are what we call a "collapser," objective functioning is not sentience.

Think about how the IBM model would even begin to describe sensations or feelings or states and modes of being. It would never get past the micro level of chemical reactions.

One of the problems with a staunch materialism is that you invariable end up defining man as a machine qualitatively no different than Uncle Fred's old car. Just more better. But it's still a bucket of bolts. Not a sentient human being.

JL
squishy

Mountain climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
Jim Standridge is the very avatar of an unconscious man, so surfeited with his own imagined importance he's ready to explode. He is the old, straight, right wing peckerwood still believing someone cares, when in fact the parade has marched past and ain't bothered to look back at old Jimbo. He and his type are done. They had a decent run and here we are.

Imagine telling Jim he needs an attitude adjustment and that black woman over there is gonna give it to him, like it or not.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
re: parts and wholes
re: arithmetic sum versus synergistic sum (synergy)

We've been over this ground before but heck...

As soon as one assembles parts into a functional whole, he's created something greater than the arithmetic sum of its parts. We do it all the time. On purpose. Including the works on the 'Show Me What You're Building' thread.

Culture, another example. Culture, a subject I'm reading about now in evolutionary terms, is a system that's greater than the sum of its parts. Indeed, it exists - it's got so-called "existence power" - because it confers benefits on its parts (e.g., individuals, institutions, etc.) that ends up maintaining it.

We're no doubt confusing a wide range of subjects here. If we didn't confuse them, everything from mindfulness meditation to consciousness to physics to chemical WMD, then I'm sure we'd be in full agreement. :)

.....

Aside, an interesting - and timely - subject to ponder these days is how cultures (greater than the sum of their parts) compete across history in terms of evolution and strategies and winners and losers.

The big difference today is that we have the phenomenon of electronic social media recording it all - the good, bad and ugly - each and every day - and giving everyone the play by play action each and every day. Whew.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
You simply can't imagine this till you see it actually played out in your life.

You've actually been asked on many occasions to expand on just this, just as you've asked for the rest of us to open up about our own selves. There's nothing like a good ol' personal testimonial to sway the unbelievers. "I was lost but now I'm found." So, do tell?


The preacher man was pretty funny. Reminded me of this guy.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
Cintune, if you are honestly asking a question in which you have no idea per the "answer," and are 100% interested in the data that might come from an investigation, and can jump into it with no biases, Abrahamic or otherwise, I will go into it because you asked. But if you're just after another wank along, I'll respectfully pass.


And Fruity, is it possible for you to imagine a phenomenon that was not "created" by parts?

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
A machine is by nature a mechanical thing. It has no reference or access to and therefore no capacity to "imagine" or postulate what subjective experience would be like and would entail.

You did not specify, in the post to which I responded ,that the machine doing the examination of the human meat brain had to itself possess subjective human traits , like falling in love with Uncle Fred's girlfriend, or wrestling with an imagination.
The scenario you presented simply had the machine objectively examining the brain.
Now.

Any super computer worth his silicon grains would:
A) conclude it was a human brain
B) infers , since it is a human brain, as a matter of course, this brain inherently wrestles with so - called subjective states ---such as love and imagination.

Could our computer be correct about its conclusions drawn from its observations and backed-up by its programmin' ?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
But if you're just after another wank along, I'll respectfully pass.

Uh, no, dude, I'm asking about how these practices have changed your life, all respectful like. At one point you were a regular discursive guy like the rest of us, but then, over time, something happened and it changed everything, to the point that you want to share it. Now, it's safe to say your presentation skills have run up against some difficulties in that so far, but I do think a straightforward account of how these experiences have made a difference to you could only help shed some light.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
Any super computer worth his silicon grains would:
A) conclude it was a human brain
B) infers , since it is a human brain, as a matter of course, this brain inherently wrestles with so - called subjective states ---such as love and imagination.


And how would the super computer "know" or detect said "so-called" subjective states having never had contact with a sentient being? That would by definition have to be the criteria if you claim that sentience could be detected strictly by mechanical means. You would, perforce, have to eliminate a subjective entity cuing the dummy (machine) what to look for, lest the subjective entity would be doing the machines heavy lifting.
The machine has to detect and explain sentience all by itself, from the very workings of it's own bucket of bolts. And that, my friend, ain't happening no how because sentience can only be "know" by a subject, once sentient instant at a time.

He said: "John Searle and others have pointed out, the Turing Test does not measure awareness, it just measures information processing—particularly the ability to follow rules or at imitate a particular style of communication. In particular it measures the ability of a computer program to imitate human like dialogue, which is different than measuring awareness itself. Thus even if we succeed in creating good AI, we won’t necessarily succeed in creating AA(“Artificial Awareness”).

That much said, how would the computer understand love and imagination as anything other than chemical processes.

What's more, per your use of "so-called" subjective states. How would this differ from "so-called" objective states, and by what process would you gauge the verity of either? How do you define the difference between the subjective life you actually lead as a human being, and an objectified representation of same?

JL
WBraun

climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
The stupid dog says -- "unlike religion, which is merely a state of mind"

Then why are you stating your mind.

Instead of scientifically giving your mind.

Man, .... are you ever stupid ......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
At one point you were a regular discursive guy like the rest of us, but then, over time, something happened and it changed everything, to the point that you want to share it. Now, it's safe to say your presentation skills have run up against some difficulties in that so far, but I do think a straightforward account of how these experiences have made a difference to you could only help shed some light.


For starters, I never stopped being a "regular discursive guy" like the rest of us. How would that change since discursive is the way we operate in the world. My "presentation skills" are not the problem, or the challenge. The challenge is that the experiential and objective worlds, while constituting one reality - like one coin - nevertheless are like both sides of a coin, which are not the same sides. The difficulties are that you want to know all about "heads," so to speak, but you want me to stick to the language and construct of Tails, and when I say this is impossible, you fail to understand this is not fault specifically of mine, or even of language.

Nevertheless, asking for "a straightforward account of how these experiences have made a difference to you could only help shed some light," is a totally reasonable question. But maybe you could be a tad more specific and dial in your question a little more, keeping it close as possible to what you are most curious about, as opposed to what you think or imagine is most suspect.

But give me a bit. I'm just getting off work and have to go to the Sangha for a few hours.

JL
dirtbag

climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 08:07pm PT

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
And how would the super computer "know" or detect said "so-called" subjective states having never had contact with a sentient being? That would by definition have to be the criteria if you claim that sentience could be detected strictly by mechanical means. You would, perforce, have to eliminate a subjective entity cuing the dummy (machine) what to look for, lest the subjective entity would be doing the machines heavy lifting.
The machine has to detect and explain sentience all by itself, from the very workings of it's own bucket of bolts. And that, my friend, ain't happening no how because sentience can only be "know" by a subject, once sentient instant at a time.

Again, now you are expanding the scenario from your original post in which you merely had the machine objectively examining the brain.
Now apparently our machine has had no prior contact with a sentient being?? wTF?
Even Uncle Fred's Cadillac had her tuning tuned up by a sentient human.

There is nothing mysteriously unknowable about so-called human subjective states per se.
The Artificial Intelligence has no problem understanding that they exist, what and where they arise, what part of the brain they light up, and the effects of these states upon the external world.

Can the computer actually partake in these rarefied states?
No.
Because a computer is inorganic.

Subjective states do not have to be mandatorily experienced first hand to be known and recognized by an intelligent cutting edge machine, in a purely objective manner.
So -called subjective states are like a hand or an eyelid. They are organic constituents of human life. Nothing arcanely exalted going on there beyond the ordinary and yet miraculous thing we call Life.




cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 5, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
But maybe you could be a tad more specific and dial in your question a little more, keeping it close as possible to what you are most curious about, as opposed to what you think or imagine is most suspect.

I wouldn't want to limit it to what I'm curious about, don't want to make it about me. So, just anything and everything that has noticeably changed in consequence of working to develop this attentiveness, perspective, broader range of experience, the "other side of the coin." Things that language should be able to convey, since it's clearly not the appropriate medium for exploring the Real Deal. For example (but not limited to) interpersonal relationships, day-to-day ups and downs, climbing at high levels, whatever might offer an insight into the worldly outcomes of time spent at sangha versus not.
Byran

climber
Yosemite
Sep 5, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
Can the computer actually partake in these rarefied states?
No.
Because a computer is inorganic.

Why do you assume that when a carbon/nitrogen/oxygen based brain sends electrical signals across itself that it creates "consciousness", but when a silicon/copper/silver based computer chip does more or less the same thing, it doesn't result in consciousness?

"Life" in the biological sense, is only necessary for consciousness insofar as the neurons in our brains have to be alive to work properly. A computer doesn't require cellular metabolism to function, so the fact that it's inorganic shouldn't exempt it from experiencing consciousness.

Carl Sagan wrote a lot about looking for alien life in the universe and how we go about it in a very anthropocentric way - always looking for "earthlike" planets which would support carbon life similar to our own, when in fact alien intelligence could very well be silicon based or something even stranger.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 5, 2013 - 10:11pm PT

"Life" in the biological sense,

I like Ed's definition from way back; to be alive it needs to reproduce.

As far as my computer, until it humps my iPhone and gives me a watch. It ain't alive!

As far as consciousness, what happens to it when you turn the on switch off?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
Why do you assume that when a carbon/nitrogen/oxygen based brain sends electrical signals across itself that it creates "consciousness", but when a silicon/copper/silver based computer chip does more or less the same thing, it doesn't result in consciousness?

I didn't say that. I said , and implied , that a computer cannot experience those particular subjective states in question, like love, for instance , because such states are organically based.
A computer has no need to experience "lust " for instance, unless you've discovered a recent Apple product or app that I am not aware of.

Could humping computers be the next thing on youporn?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
The problem, Ward, is that you confuse subjective and objective, and when I said the objective cannot detect the subjective, you have simply gone into the standard default mode of saying detection of physical markers of consciousness is the same thing as subjective experience itself. My sense of it is you are such a staunch physicalist that you would go so far as to consider the subjective life you actually live and experience to be less of a real phenomenon that the material you believe "creates" you, and all you will be know. But let's look at what you have said.

-

Again, now you are expanding the scenario from your original post in which you merely had the machine objectively examining the brain.
-

The intention of the original post was to show the simple fact that a machine, in and of itself, cannot detect subjective experience, having no capacity and no reference to know or recognize what human experience actually is. The best a machine can hope to ever recognize is objective functioning.


Now apparently our machine has had no prior contact with a sentient being?? wTF?



If a machine can detect subjectivity mechanically, why would it need input from a sentient being to do it's mechanical work?


Even Uncle Fred's Cadillac had her tuning tuned up by a sentient human.



Sentience is handy like that.

There is nothing mysteriously unknowable about so-called human subjective states per se.


What I believe you mean by this statement is that you believe subjectivity is entirely mechanistic and brain based, and every facet of conscious is quantifiable. If so, quantify raw awareness. What is it? And by means of what experience and what empirical data have you arrieved at your beliefs?


The Artificial Intelligence has no problem understanding that they exist, what and where they arise, what part of the brain they light up, and the effects of these states upon the external world.


Explain to the world how a machine would, in and of itself, "understand" how subjective sentient experience would exist. Note I am not asking for the machine to point out objective functioning. This false argument, assuming the two are selfsame, has been decided decades ago. And where does consciousness arise? And how?


Can the computer actually partake in these rarefied states?
No. Because a computer is inorganic.

---

Subjective states do not have to be mandatorily experienced first hand to be known and recognized by an intelligent cutting edge machine, in a purely objective manner.
-


This statement is a contradiction and a total confusion of terms. First, we need to acknowledge a coin has two sides and they are not selfsame. Anyone can see this as a simple fact. Likewise, we humans, while living in a subjective space from birth to death, we also have a physical body, but few of us confuse objective stuff with our person experience. You keep insisting that a machine can "know and recognize" subjectivty, but these are human attributes specific to sentience. A machine can only detect and resigster/record so-called objective functions it has been programmed to detect, which are associated with subjectivity. No machine can detect sentience itself. Only objective functioning. Only by conflating the objective and subjective can we say "heads are also tails," but every schoolboy knows better.


So -called subjective states are like a hand or an eyelid. They are organic constituents of human life. Nothing arcanely exalted going on there beyond the ordinary and yet miraculous thing we call Life.
MisterE

climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
The stupid dog says -- "unlike religion, which is merely a state of mind"

Then why are you stating your mind.

Instead of scientifically giving your mind.

Man, .... are you ever stupid ......

States of being are much more expressive in this regard.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
Largoid :
Right now I'm headed to my local sang-gaga ( Starbucks) to sit in the downtown environment , check out the passing babe-a-thon, and talk to my old Spanish friend (if he shows up) whose family knew and worked for Salvador Dali.

Dali at work in his office:


Okay. Lets hear it for 5.4 climbs


Mannnnnnnn--tel . Lol

Just look at the " exposure"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 5, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
squish
Are your posts, your posts? Or jus cut and pastes? Do you have legit questions?
Either way you certainly don't have any understanding of the bible.
I would be just as naive as you if I posted Hitlers recipes on how to BBQ Jews.
What point are you trying to produce?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 5, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
Largo the vid you linked is one of the best I've watched from this forum.

A machine can only detect and resigster/record so-called objective functions it has been programmed to detect, which are associated with subjectivity. No machine can detect sentience itself.

Resoundingly it was the 16th century when man proposed nature is no more than a machine.
How any climber could agree with this I can not fathom. But it does bring me awareness to why people here can't connect with their souls..
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 5, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
I like Ed's definition from way back; to be alive it needs to reproduce.

Then explain the difference between a virus and a computer (or any other common item really). A virus lacks a formal reproductive system; if you have it in a test tube all by itself it will just sit there. Add a host (factory) and you will soon end up with millions of copies.

Similarly, computers don't (yet) reproduce on their own, but given a factory with sufficient resources and capabilities it will be reproduced and eventually evolve into a more efficient form
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 5, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Hey, it's not that I can't see Ward's point. But in all of these arguments you will find that physicalists fall back to insisting that your uncle is your aunt and "so-called" subjectivity IS in fact, objectivity. If you believe that anything is no greater than the parts imagined to create it, you believe this with all your heart.

But as with all things like this, we can ask, if the machine can detect subjectivity, can look into our brains and say I detect a person sensing a stunning girl with fine form, what the machine will perforce point to is not the experience itself of said feline, rather a bunch of neural activity. And if you can't tell the difference between this and experience, no one is going to talk you out of it.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 5, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
You know who...
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.

Why won't the God of Abraham heal amputees?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 5, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
Bluey, what is gained from connection with soul?

A personal connection with such stuff does not need to be dragged around in some sort of pious display.

The auto response by many in the Christian community to label "un-saved" and then condescend and/or attempt to save through conversion is vile...

... believe what you need and and respect others inner realms as private unless they wish to discuss those realms.
MH2

climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
MH2. Put down that beer bong. Go to the corner. Sit yourself down. Keep your back straight. Soft focus, but eyes open, gaze downward at a 45 angle or whatever is comfortable. Watch your breath and ignore whatever comes up, moving neither to nor away from any thought, feeling (however fuzzy), insight, horror, or memory. Report back in five years, when you have something to say.



I'm calling you out on this. People thrown that argument out there all the time and it is not supported by any empirical evidence save that if you screw with the meat brain - shoot it, pour whiskey on it, drug it, introduce pathologies - that our perception is directly effected.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2013 - 01:03am PT

Bluey, what is gained from connection with soul?

I'm understanding my problem is, I give people way to much credit for having any understanding of the bible. I wish people could get past all the negativism and read for themselves what the only book that proclaims to be authored by the creator of the universe and the creator of you. To seek out what His wishes are for you, and understand His plan for salvation. Sure anybody can have a certain connection with their own spirit/soul and go along seemingly happy and content though the years. But when you can afford to drop the ego and ask God for advice toward the experience of spirit. ( His intercession will only be met with a wholeheartedly approach) and with that meeting the soul and heart become so full and apparent, it's hard to imagine life without God.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2013 - 01:10am PT

Add a host (factory) and you will soon end up with millions of copies.

Didn't you answer your own question there?

And as far as computers. An automotive assembly line isn't what's referred to as "reproductive"
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 6, 2013 - 01:11am PT
Bluey, my contract is written differently...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 6, 2013 - 01:15am PT
Bluebloc...when are you going to drop the ego...you are smack in the middle of a pissing match and you won't stop...pure ego.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2013 - 01:31am PT
^^^ I haven't said anything to be self promoting.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 6, 2013 - 09:13am PT
And as far as computers. An automotive assembly line isn't what's referred to as "reproductive"

It's ok blooey. I didn't expect you to grasp the more philosophical aspects of the argument. Let's step it down a level and give us the definition of "reproductive" if you're game.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 6, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
I'm calling you out on this. People thrown that argument out there all the time and it is not supported by any empirical evidence save that if you screw with the meat brain - shoot it, pour whiskey on it, drug it, introduce pathologies - that our perception is directly effected.


Why do you think you have been assigned that seat in the corner, dude? To gather the empirical evidence your own self, rather than to take some one's word for it, or read a print out of it off a machine.

I trust you are used to taking people's temp's and quantifying body functions so it makes sense to consider perception as a strictly physical phenomenon. But all of this thinking takes place in your experiential, subjective bubble. No one else experiences your ideas that your perception is solely the result of meat brain output, and that the meat brain "creates" perception nuts to bolts. That's how a physicalist/mechanical model sees the world. But as we've seen, a machine and consciousness are not the same.

But lest yo go into the corner, you will never realize as much just as a machine can never detect sentience. Sentience can encompass both material and experience. A machine can only handle material.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 6, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Mission Congo: how Pat Robertson raised millions on the back of a non-existent aid Project - http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/sep/05/mission-congo-pat-robertson-aid-rwanda

A Heart of Darkness!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 6, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
just as a machine can never detect sentience. Sentience can encompass both material and experience. A machine can only handle material.

You state this as matter of factly as Haggee states the existence of Satan.

This is what your 10k hours and pages boil down to.

For the record, I think you're dead wrong.



To be precise (as aforementioned quote is a bit loose), the opposing claim: Sentience is a function of brain circuitry.




But at least we know what it boils down to and where the two sides stand.

Yep.


.....

re: Source of mind (including ideation, sentience, intention, etc.)

The issue is so deep (in relation to current knowledge, science) and the implications so severe, beliefs will turn on it one way or the other for a long time to come.

HFCS-Wozniak-Hawkins Law - The greater Circuitry Analysis and Design experience and the greater Systems Control Engineering experience in conjunction with General Biology and Neuro Biology experience, the more compelling the mind-brain model of consciousness (incl first person subjective sentience) becomes.

Now how much CAD and SCE experience does the general public have under its belt? I think this question is relevant and I think the answer to it explains why there is so much "intellectual" conflict... Over consciousness (the source of it) and on up, to beliefs in general regarding "ultimate concerns."

And, in particular, for here:

How much CAD and SCE experience does JL have under his belt?

Any more than go-B or Blu? Any more than Klimmer? Any more than the Bananaman (Ray Comfort)?

So I don't ask Why but Why not: Why would JL, like so many others, not find the claim that 'Thoughts and feelings are what brain does' incredible? -When even electrical engineers (with hundreds of hours of circuitry analysis and design under their belt) turned neuroscientists still find this "brain magic" incredible.

Alright, I'm done. ;)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 6, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Why would JL, like so many others, not find the claim that Thoughts and feelings are what brain does' incredible?

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 6, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Fruity, now you are in my wheelhouse.

First, kindly list any machine that was not man-made, and that was not conceived by a sentient being - namely a human.

It follows incontrovertibly that no machine can be understood sans the sentience that conceived it. In other words, there are no such things as machines that came into existence separate from sentience.

A sentient being operating a machine or reading the output of a machine can interpret the data and surmise that this and that physical marker is connected to sentience in some way, big or small, but the machine itself cannot mechanically surmise that there is present in the evaluated thing a phenomenon such as human experience because a machine can only evaluate, correlate, and produce data streams. And data streams, while being part of our cognitive world, they are not sentience that observes them nor yet the flow of subjective experience in which the data arises. The argument against this is that we don't need to reify what Ward refers to as "so-called subjective" existence since we can just use a mechanical model to show how content arises, at least theoretically. This is the common mistake of confusing sentience with content or info processing.

What you and others in the AI camp are trying to do is to reduce sentience to a kind data processing that can be replicated mechanically, when that is merely content, not self awareness. The wonky default renders such howlers as, "self awareness is what the mechanical brain does." As mentioned, this is as daft and unacceptable as saying a landslide is what gravity does, then saying we don't need to reify gravity as a real thing since we can get all we need from the tumbling rocks.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 6, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
any machine

The Kreb Cycle.

Photsynthesis.

Glycolysis.

Electron Chain Transport.

Replication.

Transcription.

Translation.

Stop thinking in terms of worm gears and pulleys that you can see with the naked eye, for starters.

Also, start thinking in terms of so-called signal transduction (between cells and tissues) and their supporting micro-machinery of life.




I'm late for my workout.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 6, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
The Kreb Cycle.

Photsynthesis.

Glycolysis.

Electron Chain Transport.

Replication.

Transcription.

Translation.

Stop thinking in terms of worm gears and pulleys that you can see with the naked eye, for starters.
-

These are bio functions that we can observe as having certain mechanical processes. A machine, as every schoolboy knows, is something else. What's more, none of those processes you mentioned have the capacity to detect and explain sentience, which is what the discussion is about.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Sep 6, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
I can't believe that a troll thread from 4 years ago has garnered over 1200 posts in the past month. Most of which have nothing to do with why does everyone hate Christianity so much?


it seems to be more of a belief contest at this point, if there even is a point.


Trolled, in every sense of the term you all have been, chasing your tails in circles & wasting thousands of words upon an audience of deaf ears. Trolled by each other, Christian Jesus, science, & new age thinking. Hilarious.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 6, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Largo wrote,
A machine, as every schoolboy knows, is something else.

No, no, no.

Each of these processes have their supporting micro "machinery" of life.

A bacterium should be easily conceived as a micro-machine. In part and in whole. Can you do that?

If you were a King, I'd say to you... There is no royal road, your Majesty, to consciousness and sentience. There is a process. You have to take it in baby steps.

Signal transduction throughout the cell and the living body is a control system process. The only way it works is by way of its underlying micro machinery.

Get out your microscope and books and go sit for awhile in that corner you're always talking about. Wiki, btw, doesn't cut it. ;)


.....

chasing your tails in circles & wasting thousands of words upon an audience of deaf ears

O Wise One,

you know everyone's goals here? perhaps they are not yours, lol!
WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
Oh go away ya losers and pussies...

You've been trolled, pawned and owned yourself by posting to this stupid thread.

The whole forum is full of stupid threads and trolls.

It's all entertainment ......
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 6, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
You've been trolled, pawned and owned yourself by posting to this stupid thread.

And yet here you are...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 6, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
Skeptimistic

Hehe... yes that's the nature of WBraun... stupid to the bone...

Myself, I will not write anything more ... on this thread, today ...

I'm not stupid...

Lol...
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 6, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
Largo- Have you read "The Selfish Gene?" Perhaps the "machinery" is really what is driving reproduction and evolution, not the functional organism that transports it..
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 6, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
I have no idea where yhou wandered off to in your thinking, Frunty. My point was that mechanical investigations beget mechanical processes, not sentience. You mentioned a royal road to sentience, the belief being it is simple mechanical output of the meat brain.

Kindly tell us at what point in the "process" or along the royal road is sentience sucddenly "created" by the mechanical processes you reference?

Also, Bryan raisd some interesting points:

"Why do you assume that when a carbon/nitrogen/oxygen based brain sends electrical signals across itself that it creates "consciousness," but when a silicon/copper/silver based computer chip does more or less the same thing, it doesn't result in consciousness?"

I, personally, don't assume that anythig n"creates" consciousness.

More Bryan:

'"Life" in the biological sense, is only necessary for consciousness insofar as the neurons in our brains have to be alive to work properly. A computer doesn't require cellular metabolism to function, so the fact that it's inorganic shouldn't exempt it from experiencing consciousness."'

If, in fact, consciousness can be explained and replicated entirely as a mechanical process. Then we'll have computers in love, as that one whacko snake oil salesman promised "by 2020."

JL


JL
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 6, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
^^^perfect!^^
dirtbag

climber
Sep 6, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Werner nails it. Damnit.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 6, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Largo wrote,
If, in fact, consciousness can be explained and replicated entirely as a mechanical process. Then we'll have computers in love

See, this is the caricature.

Not one researcher (neuroscientist, analytical bioengineer, e.g., or cognitive scientist) in a thousand is cocky enough to say this. But this IS the caricature, and today once again it is yours.

Every serious researcher or scientist (amateur or pro) in the field realizes design by evolution (over millions of generations) is altogether different than design by human engineering. In that difference is where the Grand Mystery lies.

I only wish you could... stretch enough or whatever... to appreciate these points.

The Grand Mystery which you caricature... otherwise the Brain Magic which you disparage... is an extraordinary thing that's drawn, and continues to draw, thousands of bright serious students to study it. Maybe someday "consciousness" as a set of brain circuit functions will be figured out. Then again maybe in its fullness it won't. But an important understanding for now, here at the start of the 21st century, and one that I am satisfied with, is that lines and lines of evidence across many and various sciences all in a convergent pattern point to "mental life" as brain function.

Imo, you grossly underestimate the power of circuitry and signal transduction in a system designed not by human engineering but by evolution and natural selection over millions of years and generations.

If you haven't read Selfish Gene, I think it would be worth your while. On one hand, you show a passion; yet on the other hand, somehow you don't. It's weird.

Or it's entertainment. ;)
WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
Maybe someday "consciousness" as a set of brain circuit functions will be figured out.

Where have you been.

Sleeping of course for the last trillion years.

Since day one consciousness has been understood and revealed.

Only now in the stupid century of knuckle headed lab coats who forgot how to use their brains do they make ridiculous stupid statements like yours.

Your dumb machines will never figure out intelligence.

Life comes from life and intelligence comes from intelligence.

Modern lab coats come from pond scum with no intelligence ......
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 6, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
You've been trolled, pawned and owned yourself by posting to this stupid thread.

Excuse the biblical reference, but OH GOD!, this is so f-ing ironic.

It's like one lobster saying to the others, "You are all idiots for ending up in this pot of boiling water."

Dave
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 6, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
But what if its a rheostat?

But what if it's not linear at all?


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 6, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
You mentioned a royal road to sentience

Again, sometimes you have to read a post more carefully. This allusion was to your education process in life sciences. That's what the famous "royal road" references here. In one post you jump from talking about "machinery" and its definition (about which you're confused, about which you have an old 19th century definition if not understanding) to consciousness. No wonder there is so much mis-communication about.

An example "machinery of life" is photosynthesis apparatus. This was identified. There are thousands of such examples in cellular biology and beyond across the life sciences. It takes effort to learn about them obviously.

The point was the more learning in these areas concerning the machinery of life is stacked up, the more it positions one (in this case, you) to appreciate the claim that mental life aka consciousness is what brain does.

Later...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 6, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
But what if it's not linear at all?

In large part, it's not linear. The bulk of it is probably non-linear and at many levels chaotic.

But perhaps your post was for entertainment? only you know whether or not you got dmt's point.

I figure you did. As that's a pretty cool gif there.
Completely mechanistic (deterministic), btw.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 6, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
Jim,

you should bring that back, go ahead call me biased but that was awesome!

Bring it back, it'll be first up on the page! :)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 6, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
One answer to the OP question:

Because its views concerning sex, women and cleanliness are more than a wee bit out-dated.

.....

Jim,

No good reason philosophizing about science shouldn't be entertaining as well. ;)
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 6, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
If you don't believe and IF there is no God at all, you got nothing to worry about!
What me worry...
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 6, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
If you do believe and you finally find out there is no God at all,...

you're in for some big disappointment. And all that time you spent memorizing and posting bible verses could've been spent actually doing something constructive for mankind.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 6, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
you're in for some big disappointment

Skepti,
you do see the irony in your post to go-B?

.....

If you don't believe and IF there is no God at all, you got nothing to worry about!

You mean other than religious militant fundamentalist zealots getting their hands on nuclear material in the name of God Jehovah in this world, right?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
These are bio functions that we can observe as having certain mechanical processes. A machine, as every schoolboy knows, is something else. What's more, none of those processes you mentioned have the capacity to detect and explain sentience, which is what the discussion is about.

that's an interesting statement...

if you presume that evolution is responsible for those machines, and that evolution is responsible for us, then those "processes," all related, have the capacity to detect and explain sentience...

it is certainly consistent with the theory of how it all came to be, that is, the theory of evolution.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 6, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Right Malemute....that's why I don't hate christianity but, right wing christians, well they certainly do provide good reason for my definition of hate.
MisterE

climber
Sep 6, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and given that our living spirits possess a certain energy - Heaven must be bursting at the seams with potential energy.

Just a thought.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Funniest sh#t of the day!

I think fruity and mutemale should get a room. Imagine the pillow talk. Star Trek quotes and equations. I'm wet just thinking about it.
Come'on now ur gonna make Skepti jealous !!!

BWWAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAA!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 6, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
"I am satisfied with, is that lines and lines of evidence across many and various sciences all in a convergent pattern point to "mental life" as brain function."

My only contention with this that consciousness is "created" by the brain (a little like an avalanche "creates" gravity), that any other notion is creationism or God talk or boogy man shite, and that while we can look at the brain as a mega great data processor, no neuroscientist alive has made one step toward showing how the brain "creates" subjective experience. Ed chimed in and suggested that bio machines can not only detect but explain sentience, so have at it. You will invariably be left with either saying this is a trick question and we're just not there yet per our neuroscience, or you'll collapse objective functioning into sentience, or bark out that daft dirge that "consciousness is what the brain does," as though that explains anything to anyone's satisfaction. That's just a sill piece of ad copy.

But I'm sick of this circular argument. I'm convinced that to understand what is at play here you have to first understand the discursive reasoning that insists consciousness IS mechanical. Once you see how that works, and more importantly, how it does NOT work, namely what limits discursive thinking has, then the rest unfolds pretty quickly. But again, looking inside is not allowed to people on this list, apparently. Granted, it's not for everyone.


And the so-called charicature of machines learning to love was actually a quote from some swindler who had jobbed a huge amount of money from many sources to study consciousness and so forth. Can't remember his name.

But the interesting fact remains that if we can explain consciounsness totally in mechanical terms, then a conscious, non-organic machine is at least a possibility.

People interested in this might find this article interesting:

https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/will-machines-ever-become-human
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 6, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
(a little like an avalanche "creates" gravity)

the crux of the biscuit
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2013 - 11:24pm PT


Sep 6, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
Funniest sh#t of the day!

I think fruity and mutemale should get a room. Imagine the pillow talk. Star Trek quotes and equations. I'm wet just thinking about it.
Come'on now ur gonna make Skepti jealous !!!

BWWAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAA!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
^^^^ that's Precious!
Wonder where you fit in
WBraun

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 12:25am PT
"A true scientist will find/see God."

"A true intellectually honest person will come into contact with God."

 the duck ......
WBraun

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 12:30am PT
That consciousness thing is a tough one...


No it isn't.

It's very simple to understand.

We're just plain stupid .....
Decko

Trad climber
Colorado
Sep 7, 2013 - 12:31am PT
Yawn........

When your dead your dead......

No book full of stories can make me believe there is anything else after that.



















Personally I think religions and the belief of an after life cause your a believer is the biggest load of horse sh#t out there





We are all carbon based life forms that have evolved its proof.......




Show me proof all the earth holds and is was created in 7 days and well that's a great tale to hear.........








Ur gonna die



That and taxes are for certain.......

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 7, 2013 - 12:38am PT
Can't see it having it's own thread, but climbing and religion related;

Once home to Stylites, the Katskhi Pillar had remained derelict for centuries, and it was only in 1944 that a team of climbers scaled the tower, finding at the top the skeleton of its last occupant. Mr Qavtaradze moved in 1993 after taking his monastic vows, and found it moved him closer to God and help banish a troubled past.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/10291740/The-monk-who-lives-up-a-rock-to-get-closer-to-God.html
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2013 - 01:16am PT
I hope before I die I can gain the intelligence you'all posses so as to understand that all life came to be by chance. The sheer luck in the roll of the dice. That all this energy is for not. Just an exasperation. And nothing is reaped from all that was sown. That all emotional investment was wasted breath. And the pure accumulation of information is the crown achievement.
When my eyes close for the last time, I'll.......




Forget?





WBraun

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 11:07am PT
The stupid atheistic dog Malemute is quoting Socrates who was one of the most advanced intelligent God conscious people around.

This shows and proves he doesn't even understand his own arguments nor the people he is using.

This to be expected from a stupid dog ......
MH2

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
I though Howard the Duck was a film about a guy who could clear a traffic jam by eyeball blasting the cars in front.
MH2

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Now I get it.
MH2

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
Why do you think you have been assigned that seat in the corner, dude? To gather the empirical evidence your own self, rather than to take some one's word for it, or read a print out of it off a machine.

Not even close. Yo didn't read what I said - that awareness is not contingent on "content," or the mind's interaction with people, places or things, nor yet with thoughts. Ergo, matter does in fact NOT require an interaction to be "aware,' since it IS aware to begin with.
WBraun

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
So your parked car is aware and needs no interaction with people to operate since it is pure matter.

Matter just spontaneously operates from nothing.

Holy cow ..... my car just drove away all by itself ......
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 7, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Your car drove away by itself and Cosmic will probably get a few more tickets ...a perfect example of Karma at work...RJ
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
MikeL
Hey if you are out there check in and let us know how you're doing?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 7, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
We are convinced that no alternatives that you have proposed exist.


Of course you are, because you have had no direct experinces with anything else to convince you otherwise. What makes me certain about this is that the only alternative you posit is "God" or some supernatural thing and in fact what I talking about can be studied and experienced as a simple, mechanical phenomenon no more difficult to understand then the iris on a camera, which can focus on one thing at the exclusion (blurred) of all else, as well as the idea that with sufficient light, a lens can be set on infinity with an infinite depth of field.

What's more, I offered to pay for you to go study for two days with someone in Idyllwild who is English fluent and who could make some of this clear to you, and you refused. Fair enough, but you can't out of the other side of your mouth insist that you are "convinced," having never taken even the required steps. We reap we you sew. That's no fault of the material nor of you, who keep ranting about being accused of "doing it wrong," but in fact you probably did it right, just not long enough or you tried to run it solo, which is like studying anything by yourself. Possible, but good teachers are a Godsend. And radically steepen your learning curve.

If you have no interest (judged by your effort, what you do, not by what you say) in that direction, fine. But leave off with your talk about being "convinced," while refusing to go where you might learn otherwise. That's called a "forked tongue" in any language.

JL
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 7, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
I think fruity and mutemale should get a room. Imagine the pillow talk. Star Trek quotes and equations. I'm wet just thinking about it.

Come'on now ur gonna make Skepti jealous !!!

Ooo, you got me there! Actually I'm honored that you think I'm intelligent enough to be grouped in with them. And yes you've broken the code: all us educated science-types are closet Trekkies that love gay sex. And a chance for a gay menage a trois? Count me in!!

I hope before I die I can gain the intelligence you'all posses so as to understand that all life came to be by chance

So do we... So do we... You might start by finishing those remedial science classes you skipped to go fully Spiccoli. (Dooood!! That's my skull!!) Then add in comparative anatomy, biochem, embryology, microbiology, cellular & molecular bio, physiology, ecology and physics. Follow that with a reading of The Origin of Species (Betcha can't get past the first chapter) and finish up with reading the Miller-Urey experiment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment

In retrospect, you might want to add in an English class so you can have a good understanding of the language and spelling. You'all doesn't need an apostrophe and I'm pretty sure you aren't referring to a bunch of deputized cowboys or inner city rap groupies...

Tra-la-la!
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
A fairly and mildly amusing post, but with a highly dissonant minor second interval :

Actually I'm honored that you think I'm intelligent enough to be grouped in with them.

Distressing.

BTW what does the Miller-Urey experiment have to do with anything?

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 7, 2013 - 06:52pm PT

...even the prodigal son used good sense returning home to his (waiting loving) father!

Luke 15:7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 7, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Yo didn't read what I said - that awareness is not contingent on "content," or the mind's interaction with people, places or things, nor yet with thoughts. Ergo, matter does in fact NOT require an interaction to be "aware,' since it IS aware to begin with.


First, what makes you think so? I'm not doubting that you believe this, I'm just curious how you came to it. This sounds a little like, "Awareness is what the meant brain does," a non-answer that would never fly if applied to anything. Purple Haze is what a guitar does, and all that. This is, of course, folly - we can easily see why.

But I'd be interested in hearing more about the pure awareness you must have experienced to actually know that content was not needed. Again. people speculate wildly on this thread so if you have actual experiences in this regards, I'm interested in hearing all about them.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Good luck finding an atheist willing to strap a bomb to his or her back, or fly a plane into a building...."


Perhaps, but if you look not too far back into history and you will find a few atheists willing to establish freedom-destroying totalitarian states based upon mass imprisonment and murder.

...noted beer expert

Maybe too much of a beer expert, "noted" or otherwise.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2013 - 08:41pm PT

If you have no interest (judged by your effort, what you do, not by what you say) in that direction, fine. But leave off with your talk about being "convinced," while refusing to go where you might learn otherwise. That's called a "forked tongue" in any language.

This really reminds me of most all of the smarty pants around here. Always talk'in smack about followers of Christ without ever experiencing His promises. I've read the origins of species, a couple of times. What experience does it have to offer? Besides the opportunity to side in opinion. If I want to see the same species of bird with a different beak. I don't need to go to the Gallopio's. I can see that right here in the desert with the Hummingbirds. Big deal?
So what good does it do to read a bunch of theoretical books if there's no experience to be had? On the other hand, the bible is all about experience. The first half is all about examples of mans experience ranging from slave to King. And it provides equations to the outcomes
from mans desires. And the second half invites the reader to actively participate in a intimate
relationship with the Creator of the universe. The One that loves and knows you better than your own parents. The One that can hear ur thoughts and can answer your prayers by directing your path of experience. When simply trusting and obeying The Lord Jesus, He will
direct your path of experience. Changing a wrong mind to right, and a black heart to white.
It's ALL about experience that's builds faith.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2013 - 09:15pm PT

Like any politician. Promises promises. No delivery.

I can empathize with ur view of men in power. But in no ways is the Creator of the universe bending in His word! It is by His word that this planet is perfect for the human being to inhabit.
And all of His promises provided in the bible are ours to petition. I have personally experienced and witnessed many times over. Thus my faith is Great! And I am definitely NOT one to move on hearsay!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 7, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
"Why assume that when a carbon/nitrogen/oxygen based brain sends electrical signals across itself that it creates "consciousness," but when a silicon/copper/silver based computer chip does virtually the same thing, it doesn't result in consciousness?"

This was an interesting observation we all, myself included, have do-se-doed around handsomely. This is an especially curious question if we are cribbing a model from electronics and/or engineering. The real rub might be in believing that consciousness works like everything else in the galaxy: physical processes yield physical results. Except consciousness itself is not physical in any standard way. What's physical is the electro-chem processes, and calling them consciousness itself is just so much tap dancing if we're honest about it.

These are interesting questions rarely confronted at the level of the question, but often and eagerly dragged into the arena of other non or partial answers. Even the "complexity argument" cowers before this one. Imagine the complexity of electro-chemical processes coming down on Venus or Mercury yet we don't suspect they are conscious. AI has already claimed we need not have a "living" or bio unit to "create" consciousness so that argument is out - if we believe the AI folk.

Something to ponder.

JL

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
malemute
Do you even have any understanding in ur cut n pastes?
Besides all the misconstrued, taken out of text rants. You should have some knowledge of the whole bible in order to critique a certain passage. Some people quote" the root of all evil is money". But that's far from the root. The root is lust. All of the Ten Commandments have to do with controlling mans lust. It's mans self seeking lust for personal pleasure is what's an abomination to the family and God! And sexual lust by the unwed has always been the number one reason for weakness and for falling from Holyness. Take a look around today,
most of the problems and evils all carry roots in sexual lust. In every town. Every city. Every nation. Bar none! And this is what Gen. 6 is concerning. God set in motion a plan and man rebelled. How would you like it if your child went so far against what you taught? What would you do?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
Enjoy!

Rob Skiba puts it all together in a way that is very easy to understand and draws from many great resources. He says what I've been saying only better ...


Mt. Hermon (הר חרמון): Winter Skiing on Mt. Hermon, Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp6A7n1KZAg

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Mythology and the Coming Great Deception (Rob Skiba) Full Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsdgRxvB_jE

[Click to View YouTube Video]





The Mount Hermon Roswell Connection (Rob Skiba) Full Movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOECn1ZAWu0&list=TL5b6gEFaeog4


[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
^^^^ This stupid dog Malemute has rabies now ^^^^^

He's foaming at the keyboard.

Insane ......
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
my one and only post to this thread:

what a stupid, uninteresting, shitty thread that inexplicably surfaces to the top of a climbing forum

like a dog turd in a Canoga Park swimming pool.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
I'm not insisting anything, I'm just saying that you cannot rule out an empirical explanation of consciousness, that's all... and even when we obtain it, you won't be impressed, and it won't answer the questions you have...

it's not circular, it's just a way of looking at things. You look at things quite differently, sullly looks at things even more differently... so what?

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
BTW what does the Miller-Urey experiment have to do with anything?
+
I hope before I die I can gain the intelligence you'all posses so as to understand that all life came to be by chance
= answer. Got it now?


I've read the origins of species, a couple of times.
Uh, sure....
If I want to see the same species of bird with a different beak. I don't need to go to the Gallopio's.

What experience does it have to offer?

The ability to understand and be amazed at the adaptability and tenaciousness of life. To more fully understand the interdependent processes of the animate and inanimate. To realize that we are just a fleck of dust in this unimaginably immense universe. To be freed from the chains of superstition and ignorance that man has shackled himself with in the form of religious dictums.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 7, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
To be freed from the chains of superstition and ignorance that man has shackled himself with in the form of religious dictums.

Stockholm Syndrome.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
it's not circular, it's just a way of looking at things. You look at things quite differently, sullly looks at things even more differently... so what?

Well, two bucks plus two bucks does equal four bucks.
But two ducks plus two ducks can equal eight ducks.

It's awe inspiring to connect with another believer and discover how The Almighty has touched us so perfectly in our individuality.

And don't you believe all energies to be circular?

Edit: obliviously all matter is circular right.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 7, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
obliviously all matter is circular right

^^^^^http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oblivious^^^^
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 12:10am PT
= answer. Got it now?

No,I don't

What does:

I hope before I die I can gain the intelligence you'all posses so as to understand that all life came to be by chance

have to do with the Miller-Urey experiments.?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 8, 2013 - 12:13am PT
I'm not insisting anything, I'm just saying that you cannot rule out an empirical explanation of consciousness, that's all... and even when we obtain it, you won't be impressed, and it won't answer the questions you have...

it's not circular, it's just a way of looking at things. You look at things quite differently, sullly looks at things even more differently... so what?

-

Hi Ed,

Of course I can look at things in strictly materialist terms, but all I see is material. An honest question: What manner of empirical explanation can start to explain how self-awareeness is "created" by the brain? Can you imagine an explanation that avoids the swindle perspective of one thing being another, that this (self awareness) is what that (material) does? Or that these "mirror" cells "do" consciousness.

The real challenge is that human experience is unlike any other known "thing" on the universe.

I can't answer why this is so or what is involved, any more that I can answer why electricity accomplishes this in that system, and consciousness in the meat brain - or so the belief goes.

I was asked this the other day and I don't have the science to anwswer:

Do falling rocks "explain" gravity? Is gravity the result of the material stirrings associated with it, or "producing" it. When we are measuring gravity, and we measuring the force itself, or the material stirred about by virtue of gravity? Of course, I couldn't start to answer any of these, and I wasn't such a snake to claim they were invalid or false questions.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 12:21am PT
Good Skepti
My hope is that we would all learn something today.
For as long as man could think, have we not understood that all material is recycle able? Or circular? Today we know that star dust is most prevalent in the sands of the Sahara. And even in our bodies. Even sun light recycles itself, forever?
Funny how scientist try to predict the age of the universe by equating lights speed and distance travelled. = 15 billion yrs. but what if it had already been shinning for a trillion yrs?
Then their stupid. Scientist can't comprehend God and eternals so they put Him in a box. Stupid
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:01am PT
God, or gods, or whatever you need to label it, if you need to label it, exists whenever you wonder... or ponder ... or consider ... or maybe even dream.

You create it, and are perhaps it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:02am PT
Ignored, Forgotten, Dead

^^^ that's a fact jack!
Because you can't have material spiritualism.
That's why wen the Catholics and mormans and Muslims run out of money, they'all will be forgotten too.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:05am PT
TE
Everything is labeled precisely in the bible

It's up to you to read it or not
WBraun

climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:35am PT
Just see intelligent person shows up ^^^^

After that stupid rabid dog stopped barking at the white space in his twisted head.

Somebody must of threw a rock at the dog over the fence ....
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:54am PT
Blue, the flaw in the Bible may be in its alleged precision that you allude to. A topo can also contain such flaws...

... "oh my God, this rating is so Old Testament, and the pins are rusting!!!"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:56am PT

Ignored, Forgotten, Dead

^^^ that's a fact jack!
Because you can't have material spiritualism.
That's why wen the Catholicism and Mormonism and Muslimism run out of money, they'all will be forgotten too.

Edit: I had to fix this. I did not realize intelligent people were watching.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:59am PT

... "oh my God, this rating is so Old Testament, and the pins are rusting!!!"

That's why it's ALL A3+
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:25am PT
Had to stay up late to catch my Cinnamon Dream,

Esperanza Spalding.

I call out all you mechanicalist to go sit in the corner with earbuds positioned, cranked to 10.
And listen to Esperanza Spalding with the score card in hand and determine what the outcome will be. How could anyone besides maybe hitler could say humans are mechcanicalistic? After listening to that music, that voice, and Ingard Thomas' trumpet.
That's sentience BABY!! Bending the Body, and Bending the Notes!


Edit: BTW, you can catch a live version on PBS/SoCal. And BTW is the only tv worth watching. Have you seen their programs on the brain, or the one on climate change?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:58am PT
The real challenge is that human experience is unlike any other known "thing" on the universe.

Is it?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 8, 2013 - 08:05am PT
BTW what does the Miller-Urey experiment have to do with anything?

Did you click the link to the wiki page I provided? If you didn't understand the material presented, then you would benefit from taking an organic chemistry class.

If you're just having problems following the logic of: basic ingredients + energy -(millions of years)-> amino acids/nucleotides -(millions of years)-> RNA/DNA -(millions of years)-> early life form -(millions of years of natural selection)-> more complex life forms -(millions of years of natural selection)-> basic neural control system -(millions of years)-> reptilian brain -(millions of years)-> increasing complexity of the brain/control system -(millions of years)-> intelligence -(thousands of years)-> extinction by overpopulation/industrialization because we learned to control our environment but not our waste (oops, thread drift!), then I can't help you.

Tra-la-la!
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 8, 2013 - 08:08am PT
That's why wen the Catholicism and Mormonism and Muslimism run out of money, they'all will be forgotten too.

Edit: I had to fix this. I did not realize intelligent people were watching.

Probably should've had one of them help you...
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
basic ingredients + energy> amino acids

Is the the only experimental product of the Miller-Urey experiment you listed.

It does not prove that life arose by chance , or independent of chance, or by design.
It merely concludes that if you simulate what was "thought " to be the primordial conditions on Earth roughly 3 billion years ago you get organic constituents from inorganic precursors.

Actually you don't even need the precise conditions Miller-Urey simulated since amino acids have also been discovered within meteorites.

As regards the Miller-Urey experiment your flow chart was largely a waste of time, except as a hypothesis and a leap of faith.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
It does not prove that life arose by chance , or independent of chance, or by design... waste of time, except as a hypothesis...

Please, stop. You're an embarrassment.

If you're interested in these subjects, take the courses.

.....

P.S.

You, too, go-b. Prove to the world you're not as bronze-age minded as a billion-plus fundamentalist Muslims.

I mean, seriously, how can you be proud of the fact that your thinking in religion or theology is no more advanced than that of these billion-plus fundamentalist Muslims? or their ancient ME ancestors?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
If you're interested in these subjects, take the courses.

Make your argument to refute anything I have asserted about the Miller-Urey experiment .

Put it in your own words---for a change.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
I wouldn't argue with you any more than go-b or blu - you're a waste of time.

.....

For the more discriminating, who follow the frequent dust-ups between science and the humanities, you might enjoy...

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114548/leon-wieseltier-responds-steven-pinkers-scientism

Note that this piece might have some talking points for Largo, Sullly.

It follows a great article Steven Pinker wrote same magazine a few weeks earlier...

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities


It's all, shall we say, graduate level, more or less. ;)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
^^^^^
Please, stop. You're an embarrassment.

If you're interested in these subjects, go to church.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
I wouldn't argue with you any more than gob or blu - you're a waste of time.

You can't argue with me because in this case you have no argument .

It's not the guys you're playing with , you just don't have the ante for this pot, or the guts and skill to run a bluff.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Where'd the amino acids come from?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Miller's experiment was therefore a remarkable success at synthesizing complex organic molecules from simpler chemicals,

Yes it was for its time, quite a sensation in 1953. Remember, a few decades later amino acids were discovered in meteorites.
Had they made the meteorite discovery before Miller-Urey that experiment probably would have only been notable for its hypothetical simulation of early conditions on Earth., if they had decided to conduct it at all.

Where'd the amino acids come from?

In the M-U experiment they came from water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
The real challenge is that human experience is unlike any other known "thing" on the universe.

Is it?
-

Expand human experience to self-conscious ( a spectrum) experience by any creature. Then tell us how said experience is like something else non-experiential, in any way shape or form.

JL
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Interesting shite follows. Seems scientists - bio-chemists in this instance - are anything but in accord per the dream of "biogenesis."

"Miller Urey, while appearing to support spontaneous biogenesis, in actuality indicates the reverse. The model of the atmosphere was incorrect, the Oceanic "primordial soup" has never been shown to exist, the experiment itself was rigged for the production of organic molecules, and the published results were skewed by omitting some of the results.

"The atmosphere of ancient Earth, according to Miller-Urey, was composed of Methane, Ammonia, and Water (with traces of Hydrogen.) This atmosphere is by no means the actual ancient Earth atmosphere: there are at least two other atmospheres that are considered, but are often discluded because of much lower yield of organic molecules. The atmosphere is also thought to have been Carbon Dioxide and Water, or Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen, both of which are far less reductive, hence were not put to the Miller-Urey experiment.

R.C. Dowen has said:

"Now, for the first time in 30 years, the widely accepted recipe for the primordial soup is changing from one rich in hydrogen- composed primarily of methane and ammonia- to a Hydrogen-poor atmosphere similar to today's sans (minus) the Oxygen.

"No geological or geochemical evidence collected in the last 30 years favors a strongly reducing atmosphere....Only the success of the laboratory experiments recommends it.

"Scientists are having to rethink some of their assumptions. Chemists liked the old reducing atmosphere, for it was conductive to evolutionary experiments.

Another flaw in the atmosphere is that all exclude oxygen gas. Often Oxygen production is only produced by photosynthesis, but this is really an oversimplification. Oxygen has been known since the 60's to be produced at high altitudes with the effect of ultraviolet light on water in a process known as photolysis. R.T. Brinkman has calculated the bare minimum amount of free oxygen in the atmosphere and has concluded that Earth has always had at least a 5% Oxygen gas atmosphere. Other scientists, who are willing to let uniformitarianism fall by the wayside, compute levels ranging anywhere from 10 to the -1 to 10 to the -15, more or less evenly distributed throughout.

Now what does a disagreement of 14 powers of ten suggest? It suggests that these folks haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

All this does not consider the various "organic" chemicals that were produced by Miller-Urey that impede life. Among the most prevalent of precursor molecules of monomer synthesis is HCN. While HCN is often attributed with much chemical synthesis, such as the amine of amino acids, its mere presence would be fatal to any precursor metabolisms because of cyanide's overkill reductive powers. In short, the monomers would have to form, then all of the HCN decompose to an extremely low level (parts per trillion at least) while still retaining all of the monomers, then and only then could a primitive life form develop.

"If there ever was a primitive soup, then we would expect to find at least somewhere on this planet either massive sediments containing enormous amounts of the various nitrogenous organic compounds, amino acids, purines, pyrimidines, and the like, or alternatively in much-metamorphosed sediments we should find vast amounts of nitrogenous cokes. In fact no such materials have been found anywhere on earth.

"In the end, while experiments like Miller-Urey may have interesting results, they prove nothing if not linked to physical evidence from atmospheric studies or geochemistry. Primordial soup producing life is a myth that makes the Biblical Flood look docile and credible in comparison.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
The above arguments and criticisms have swirled around the MU experiment since 1953. That is precisely why I referred to the MU simulation of primordial earth as " hypothetical" in my earlier post.

These criticisms have led many to offer the alternative theory that amino acids were delivered to Earth by meteorites and thus may have originated life.
In any case, the M- U experiment still stands as a rough approximation of conditions on Earth 3-4 billion years ago and that such approximate conditions can produce organic constituents from elemental precursors.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
Where'd the water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen come from?

I'm curious how science explains something borne from nothing.
dougs510

Social climber
down south
Sep 8, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi

That being said, I am a true believer, I would love to share my personal experiences with anyone. It's too much to cover here, and I'm no bible thumper, but, for me, the Truth is clear. I have friends who are great people and are not Christians, and I know Christians who aren't that good, but that goes for any institution in existence. It is simply the way humans behave.

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Sep 8, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
Where'd the water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen come from?


volcanoes!!!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Dougs510
^^^ Right On Brother!
Thank You for sharing

God Is Good! AllTheTime!




Edit: post number one777. That's gotta mean someth'in ?
Scientificlly at least ¡
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
They wouldn't recognize these authors or the value of a humanities education if it bit them in the ass.

perhaps it is a wasp that does sting...
why do you have to make the distinction, many scientists see the value in a humanities education, even though they pursued another course... it is not so hard a stretch.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Largo always is asking how we can recreate what we perceive to be "sentience" mechanically... of course it begs the question what is "sentience?" which is easier to answer, perhaps, than the question what is "consciousness?"... to which no one has answered...

yet I would say we do not have either alone... but I've been saying that a lot....

the we have this "Turing test" like demonstration from the "entertainment" industry (aka gambling)


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/magazine/poker-computer.html

They will be placed alongside the pure numbers-crunchers, indifferent to the gambler. But poker is a game of skill and intuition, of bluffs and traps. The familiar adage is that in poker, you play the player, not the cards. This machine does that, responding to opponents’ moves and pursuing optimal strategies. But to compete at the highest levels and beat the best human players, the approach must be impeccable. Gregg Giuffria, whose company, G2 Game Design, developed Texas Hold ‘Em Heads Up Poker, was testing a prototype of the program in his Las Vegas office when he thought he detected a flaw. When he played passively until a hand’s very last card was dealt and then suddenly made a bet, the program folded rather than match his bet and risk losing more money. “I called in all my employees and told them that there’s a problem,” he says. The software seemed to play in an easily exploitable pattern. “Then I played 200 more hands, and he never did anything like that again. That was the point when we nicknamed him Little Bastard.”

what do you want to bet that people will loose a whole lot of money thinking they have "a system" to beat this piece of work...

does it "know" what it's doing?

what is the shark thinking just before it takes a big bite out of that tasty looking shadow on the surface?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
origins of life?
abiotic precursors?

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/30/1303904110.full.pdf

http://phys.org/news/2013-06-life-earth-shockingly-world.html

Chaz... one one word: nucleosynthesis...
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
why do you have to make the distinction, many scientists see the value in a humanities education, even though they pursued another course... it is not so hard a stretch.

I think that sting was directed at:

...certain sausages here..

"here" being this thread.
And not scientist in general.
I could be wrong.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
last time I looked I had a "sausage"
and I'm a scientists too...
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:14pm PT


Where'd the water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen come from?

I'm curious how science explains something borne from nothing.

I think what Chaz is getting at here is the origins of the universe.
Maybe you can give him an answer Ed.
Don't forget to include the "nothing" in his question.
LOL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
the dialog in the play is a lot better than the movie...

certainly sullly is better read than I, absolutely, I would not think otherwise...

but we all make choices, and hopefully we can all sit around the campfire and talk to each other, about our experiences and how they all enhance our life, brief as it is...

I wouldn't exclude many from that campfire...

...and I think I've told you in person that I value your contributions to this virtual campfire.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
I've been appreciating Richard Burton of late . That generation of British Shakespearian stage actors like Gielgud, Olivier, O'toole, and others...wow


[Click to View YouTube Video]

Shakespeare has in essence been collaborating with great actors across several centuries.
thebravecowboy

Social climber
Colorado Plateau
Sep 8, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
"The act of bell ringing is symbolic of all proselytizing religions. It implies the pointless interference with the quiet of other people." -Ezra Pound
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
If you're interested in these subjects, take the courses.


I've been saying this all along per the subjective adventures, but on this list, people apparently expect something for nothing, or lack the interest to do much more than just noodle things from their desks. Of course if this worked in this arena, who in their right minds would bother with all those silent retreats and getting up super early and interrupting things to get quite and do nothing? Nobody, that's who. Much of the experiential adventures are so far removed from fun it's hard to remember why you're pushing on sometimes when you could be bouldering or reading or taking out the trash. But when the lights flickers through the cracks, you know otherwise.

Ed's challenge to try and define sentience is tempting to try right now but I'm tired. But I'll leave you with this.

The standard definition for Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity.

Wiki says: “In the philosophy of consciousness, sentience can refer to the ability of any entity to have subjective perceptual experiences, or as some philosophers refer to them, "qualia." This is distinct from other aspects of the mind and consciousness, such as creativity, intelligence, sapience, self-awareness, and intentionality (the ability to have thoughts that mean something or are "about" something). Sentience is a minimalistic way of defining consciousness, which is otherwise commonly used to collectively describe sentience plus other characteristics of the mind.

Some philosophers, notably Colin McGinn, believe that sentience will never be understood, a position known as "new mysterianism." They do not deny that most other aspects of consciousness are subject to scientific investigation but they argue that subjective experiences will never be explained; i.e., sentience is the only aspect of consciousness that can't be explained. Other philosophers (such as Daniel Dennett) disagree, arguing that all aspects of consciousness will eventually yield to scientific investigation.”

Note that the definition of sentience refers to a capacity or ability that is not specifically designated as the result of any physical activity. The problem here is that this is unlike how "things" work in our mundane world.
a cloud rains; the sun boils and flares; a guitar gently weeps. But with all of these cases, rain, sun flares and musical sounds are physical things we can get hold of and measure.

Sentience, the ABILITY and experience of experiencing itself, is not of the same nature of rain, sun flares and music, which are things thta other things do. Even if we go to so-called inherent properties we are still talking properties themselves that have their own physical qualities. A carnation IS red. We might say that red is what a carnation does. But when we say that sentience is what the brain does, we don't have red to grab hold of. This is a subtle one that many never grasp.

Even saying "X is what Y does" is an admission that what the brain is (Y, meat) and what it is purported to do (X, BE conscious) are not selfsame, but unlike the clouds and the rain, the sun and those flares, the guitar and the music, and the carnation and the red, sentience itself provides no physical "thing" to grab and announce - THIS is what the meat brain is doing. Instead we can only point at the meat brain itself and declare, "That IS sentience."

Again, there is no physical sign of "sentience" as the thing the meat brain does, there's just the meat brain. This slippery thing called sentience, purportedly what the meat brain does, is simply not there in the sense that clouds have rain, the sun has the flares, the guitar has it's weeping, and so forth, each of these attributes being not only physical, but clearly distinguishable from the host (cloud, sun, guitar, flower) itself.

Imagine looking at the cloud when it's NOT raining and saying, "That's rain right there. That cloud IS rain."

Had we never seen rain before, we'd all gaze at the cloud and scratch our heads and say, "What the hell are you talking about? What rain? And what is rain, exactly? You're saying the cloud does something beyodn what I am seeing right now, but show me that something."

The reason we can look at the meat brain and say, that IS consciousness is because we have, so to speak, seen it before. We all live in it all the day, from birth to death. But trying to define it as you might frame rain and music and blue remains slippery for the reasons just stated - plus others.

JL
MH2

climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
"The act of bell ringing is symbolic of all proselytizing religions. It implies the pointless interference with the quiet of other people." -Ezra Pound

I remember fondly my days of proselytizing high in the tower at University of Chicago.

[Click to View YouTube Video]


The bells are set on wheels so that they ring when the mouth of the bell points upwards, the better for God to hear them.
MH2

climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
Largo said:

First, what makes you think so? I'm not doubting that you believe this, I'm just curious how you came to it. This sounds a little like, "Awareness is what the meant brain does," a non-answer that would never fly if applied to anything. Purple Haze is what a guitar does, and all that. This is, of course, folly - we can easily see why.

But I'd be interested in hearing more about the pure awareness you must have experienced to actually know that content was not needed. Again. people speculate wildly on this thread so if you have actual experiences in this regards, I'm interested in hearing all about them.



What makes me think so? In these posts the quotes are yours and the replies are yours:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=834799&msg=2219545#msg2219545

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=834799&msg=2220573#msg2220573


I was only introducing you to yourself since you seemed to share the same interests. I hope you are able to resolve your differences.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
what does the shark think...?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 8, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
...so if you have actual experiences in this regards, I'm interested in hearing all about them.

So, you're all about asking everyone else about their "experiences" but "respectfully declining" to really share any your own, hey? Pretty shabby heirophantery, if you ask me. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, right?

And yeah, clouds are rain. Deal with it.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
sullly, the Bard seemed to think a woman the proper subject for taming... in spite of his other skills...


in 1918 Emmy Noether went to the University of Göttingen to work with David Hilbert, perhaps the foremost mathematician of the 20th century. Here appointment to the faculty was blocked by the objections of the humanities faculty who felt women should not be granted the privileges to teach.

from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmy_Noether

One faculty member protested: "What will our soldiers think when they return to the university and find that they are required to learn at the feet of a woman?"[26][27][28][29] Hilbert responded with indignation, stating, "I do not see that the sex of the candidate is an argument against her admission as privatdozent. After all, we are a university, not a bath house."


She was the first woman mathematician to give a plenary address at the International Congress of Mathematicians in 1932 (the next woman mathematician to do that was Karen Uhlenbeck in 1984).

Somehow, the humanities took a bit longer to recognize that women could achieve what man had... though it seemed the talents of a mathematician may be recognized their sex not withstanding...
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:24am PT
Inner Peace: This is so true

If you can start the day without caffeine,

If you can always be cheerful, ignoring aches and pains,

If you can resist complaining and boring people with your troubles,

If you can eat the same food every day and be grateful for it,

If you can understand when your loved ones are too busy to give you any time,

If you can take criticism and blame without resentment ,

If you can conquer tension without medical help,

If you can relax without alcohol,

If you can sleep without the aid of drugs,



...Then You Are Probably .........


































































The Family Dog!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:49am PT
^^^ Thats a good one go-B

Domenico Scandella was crucified for his beliefs in God. Doesn't that make him a Christian?

Menocchio said: "I have said that, in my opinion, all was chaos, that is, earth, air, water, and fire were mixed together; and out of that bulk a mass formed – just as cheese is made out of milk – and worms appeared in it, and these were the angels. The most holy majesty decreed that these should be God and the angels, and among that number of angels there was also God, he too having been created out of that mass at the same time, and he was named lord with four captains, Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. That Lucifer sought to make himself lord equal to the king, who was the majesty of God, and for this arrogance God ordered him driven out of heaven with all his host and his company; and this God later created Adam and Eve and people in great number to take the places of the angels who had been expelled. And as this multitude did not follow God's commandments, he sent his Son, whom the Jews seized, and he was crucified."
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:54am PT
The religious people have an answer for that. I'm not sure if I buy it or not, but they at least came up with something.

I'm wondering how science explains it.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:54am PT
Menocchio said:

...he was eventually burned at the stake in 1599, at the age of 67, on orders of Pope Clement VIII.

Uh-huh. Murder the unbelievers to shut them up. That's hateful by today's standards, and it's been proven not to work very well. So it's hard to see what your point is.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 9, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
If time keeps ticking into the future, it is logical it goes the same way in the past!
God says He is eternal so easy to understand in theory but being finite we may never know how He does it this side of heaven!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 9, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Dr F,

Science has yet to come up with what even they claim is a definitive answer.

The best science can provide is a competing faith. Something you gotta believe without proof.

Ask a preacher at the church how something came from nothing, and he'll have an answer. One thing he sure as hell will not say is "No one is going to tell you how it works on a thread like this, if you want to know, look it up."
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 9, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2013 - 12:55pm PT

Did he create it out of nothing?

Nothing?.... Nothing must be an awful tiny place. For there to be nothing it seems like there would be absolutely no room for ANYTHING else to exist enabling "nothing" to be distinctively differentiated from something else. An infinitesimal diminished dot of NOTHING!
Wow! That's SMALL!!

Isn't it funny how the men of faith believe the universe to be of Intelligent Design.
And the Intelligent People believe it to be from chance.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 9, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
I was only introducing you to yourself since you seemed to share the same interests. I hope you are able to resolve your differences.


I wasn't asking you about my experience, but rather your own. Per "resolving my differences," you're just being caddy there, and you know it - our you should. So speak up. Don't be passive. No one will bite you. By what avenue did you arrive at your beliefs? I am curious.

And Cintuine, quit eating that broken glass. It's making you thorny.

And I don't respectfully decline to discuss my experience. I have repeatedly invited people, you specifically, to take a few baby steps into the heart of that experience but you and others have declined. That's fine. You're not interested in that kind of investigation. But it's curious to show no interest on the one hand, and on the other hand to accuse me of not serving up said experience on a tray so you can have at it. So I'll try it once more:

What, specifically, would you like me to address? Or put differently, what specific interests do you have per subjective explorations? Maybe I have experiences that will shed some light on your questions. Maybe not. But I'll gladly try and respond if you have an honest question.

What's more, if the cloud IS rain, as you so glibly have announced, then why do we have separate names for each phenomenon? Can we look at a raindrop separate from a cloud? Of course we can. Who amongst us will behold the raindrop and declare that the raindrop itself is a cloud? Only the person addled on the Olde English 800.

Pushing this non-answer to my other examples, you are insisting that a guitar IS music, and a baby IS crying. But is this true?

Clearly, rain, music and crying are things different than or at any rate greater than the thing we normally believe which "sourced," gave rise to, sired, or created said thing. And in each case, that extra something is a thing we can wrangle with our sense organs.

You can argue all you want that music IS a guitar but we all know perfectly well we can discuss music as a real and known thing with no reference to a Stratocaster. And said music is a physical thing we can get hold up with our sense organs.

But this model is not the same when used to discuss sentience. We all know that the brain and self awareness are discrete facets of reality. Whether we believe that the meat brain sired self awareness or not, in whole or part, is not the point here. The point is that, so far as our discursive minds are concerned, self awareness is to the brain what music is to the guitar. The guitar created music, in a sense, and the brain creates sentience, the thinking goes.

But unlike music, which has sound waves and other physical markers IN AND OF ITSELF, just as a raindrop has a shape and an isness separate and beyond the cloud, sentience has no such physical marker. We can only know sentience ourselves, though sentience itself. We all have software in us to detect the signs of sentience in others, and those lacking that software are considered autistic. But experience can be know only to itself.

JL
squishy

Mountain climber
Sep 9, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Isn't it funny how the men of faith believe the universe to be of Intelligent Design.
And the Intelligent People believe it to be from chance.

Belivers less intelligent? No...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 9, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
If not by design, was it "chance" or an "accident", or was it inevitability? What can be done, will be done. With billions and billions of planets and billions and billions of years someone is going to win that lottery. Might as well be us.



Expand human experience to self-conscious ( a spectrum) experience by any creature. Then tell us how said experience is like something else non-experiential, in any way shape or form.

The desire for survival.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 9, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
As regards the Miller-Urey experiment your flow chart was largely a waste of time, except as a hypothesis and a leap of faith.

True, the progression of events is hypothetical, but it is supported by strong evidence in the fossil record as well as by chemical research. You are living proof of the current state of the process. Even if you discount the Primordial Soup experiments as being biased, the possibility of amino acids arriving on earth via a meteorite is enough of a start to set things in motion.

Most views of god on the other hand, have no compelling evidence to support the claims that it exists (Blind faith and stories are not evidence). Funny that xtians want us to believe that their "savior" died, was buried and rose to rule in a magical kingdom in the sky, but they can provide no physical evidence of a body or one shred of verifiable evidence of its direct intervention in any events, earthly or cosmic, only hearsay from people who didn't like the current regime and had a strong motive to make up such a story, largely adapted from other myths handed down from other cultures over eons.

Ample evidence is available to support the evolution of life from basic ingredients. It easily follows that consciousness and eventually self-awareness/intelligence is a process of natural selection not requiring some mythical being to create it. The people who wrote the stories that comprise the bible and other religions had no idea of the fossil record or molecular genetics and had to fabricate explanations of how it all came to be.

That's not to say that there is no value in the parables in the various religious doctrines. It's just when people blindly adhere to the dictums without understanding the history and motivations of the writers, accepting it as "the word of god!" that we get into trouble. Too often the stories are used to denigrate, repress and ostracize people so that the "true believers" can feel superior, which is usually in direct opposition to the peace and acceptance the spiritual hero of the stories is supposed to be touting.

As far as where it all comes from, of course that is something we will likely never know. Physics has multiple explanations as to how energy condenses to form matter, creating gravity and accretion of particles which then can become dense enough to create pressure in its core resulting in intense heat. Sometimes these accretions can become so dense as to warp space & time and create black holes. Sometimes they don't quite make it to the black hole stage and explode, spewing particles and elements throughout the region. These basic elements may end up together in a collection resembling the early earth. Through a process requiring billions of years, these elements can join randomly together and form amino acids, and the rest has already been posted here.

But where did the original energy come from? Figure that one out and you can be guaranteed a Nobel Prize, just for starters. So if it came from god, where did god come from? "Time eternal" is not a sufficient answer to explain it for anyone curious enough to want to know beyond blind faith. Bottom line is that we're all just subatomic particles on a piece of dust in a desert that stretches as far as the eye can see, and so on. How you live your daily life and treat each other is really the only thing that matters.

Me, I'm all for letting people do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't impinge upon anyone else's right to pursue happiness and is fully consented to by each party involved.

Tra-la-la!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 9, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
did he just wiggle his nose or was there some matter to work with?

I must admit the thought of God as Elizabeth Montgomery seems much more appealing that an old bearded white guy.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 9, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
And Cintuine, quit eating that broken glass. It's making you thorny.

And I don't respectfully decline to discuss my experience. I have repeatedly invited people, you specifically, to take a few baby steps into the heart of that experience but you and others have declined. That's fine. You're not interested in that kind of investigation. But it's curious to show no interest on the one hand, and on the other hand to accuse me of not serving up said experience on a tray so you can have at it.

Not the experience, because you obviously can't do that. The results is what I asked about. Your results, in those areas of life that you care most about. Bragging rights on supertopo can't be all you get out of it, so?


What, specifically, would you like me to address? Or put differently, what specific interests do you have per subjective explorations? Maybe I have experiences that will shed some light on your questions. Maybe not. But I'll gladly try and respond if you have an honest question.

Don't know how much more specific I can be. "My name is Largo. I go on subjective explorations, and because of them I...."

What's more, if the cloud IS rain, as you so glibly have announced, then why do we have separate names for each phenomenon? Can we look at a raindrop separate from a cloud? Of course we can. Who amongst us will behold the raindrop and declare that the raindrop itself is a cloud? Only the person addled on the Olde English 800.
Pushing this non-answer to my other examples, you are insisting that a guitar IS music, and a baby IS crying. But is this true?
Clearly, rain, music and crying are things different than or at any rate greater than the thing we normally believe which "sourced," gave rise to, sired, or created said thing. And in each case, that extra something is a thing we can wrangle with our sense organs.
You can argue all you want that music IS a guitar but we all know perfectly well we can discuss music as a real and known thing with no reference to a Stratocaster. And said music is a physical thing we can get hold up with our sense organs.

Words. Do you speak them?


But this model is not the same when used to discuss sentience. We all know that the brain and self awareness are discrete facets of reality. Whether we believe that the meat brain sired self awareness or not, in whole or part, is not the point here. The point is that, so far as our discursive minds are concerned, self awareness is to the brain what music is to the guitar. The guitar created music, in a sense, and the brain creates sentience, the thinking goes.

Minds create music, instruments are tools.

But unlike music, which has sound waves and other physical markers IN AND OF ITSELF, just as a raindrop has a shape and an isness separate and beyond the cloud, sentience has no such physical marker. We can only know sentience ourselves, though sentience itself. We all have software in us to detect the signs of sentience in others, and those lacking that software are considered autistic. But experience can be know only to itself.

Brain waves are physical markers of sentience. And they're just as impermanent as the others.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 9, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Dr F writes:

"Here is the scientific answer:..."




I thought you said "No one is going to tell you how it works on a thread like this..."

You've contradicted yourself on two consecutive posts.

I'm guessing science wants us to believe these stars and molecules you speak of were always here - which, without proof, sounds like a leap of faith to me.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 9, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Cintuine I'm not sure you understand a thing that was just said about sentience being an ungraspable quality. I can't make it much clearer. Sentience is not something we can wrangle with our sense organs. We can wrangle the meant brain, and if you want to call sentience the meat brain, have at it. But know if you called music a guitar, people might look at you a little screwy, no matter how you explained it away.

I think this is where you are losing the thread:

I said: But unlike music, which has sound waves and other physical markers IN AND OF ITSELF, just as a raindrop has a shape and an isness separate and beyond the cloud, sentience has no such physical marker. We can only know sentience ourselves, though sentience itself. We all have software in us to detect the signs of sentience in others, and those lacking that software are considered autistic. But experience can be know only to itself.

The thing pointed out there is that with music and clouds, we have two discrete, self contained, stand alone physical things that we can get our sense organs around: music, and raindrops. We would never say that the cloud is the physical marker of a raindrop, or that a guitar is the physical marker of music, because rain and music have their own physical markers. A raindrop and sound waves are detectable via our sense organs separate from clouds and guitars. Sentience is NOT detectable with our sense organs SEPARATE from the meant brain.

And per your request about my experience, what you claim to be asking and what you are really asking are two different things. You claim to be asking about my experience, but what you are actually asking is for the discursive output of my experience, the payload, the stuff, the magic dust. You want the music from my guitar and you want me to sing it to you, and if I don't, I'm tap dancing, right?

But for several reasons, answering in this way won't increase anyone's understanding. Per "why" anyone would do all the internal work is a good question, and boils down to filling in the blind spots of our discursive minds. But if I were to try and tell you about internal explorations, it's very helpful to be as pointed as possible. So again, is there anything specifically about that terrain that you are interested in above and beyond why a person should bother and what they get out of it. The "what" is best understood thorough a specific discussion about something in particular, anything that interests you. Otherwise the discussion is too nebulous, even though the questions seems simple and honest enough. But this terrain is slippery, so IME it's best to keep things grounded in specific things.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 9, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Cintuine I'm not sure you understand a thing that was just said about sentience being an ungraspable quality. I can't make it much clearer.
It's not a difficult concept, it's paradox 101 and you don't need to "explain" it. But you can't just hide behind it either. Unless you want to be that kid who thinks no one can see him hiding there.

A raindrop and sound waves are detectable via our sense organs separate from clouds and guitars. Sentience is NOT detectable with our sense organs SEPARATE from the meant brain.

Yes, yes, and we can't touch our elbows or taste our tongues. I don't see how that automatically means that there are ghosts in those machines either. There are parameters, and they just are.

And per your request about my experience, what you claim to be asking and what you are really asking are two different things. You claim to be asking about my experience, but what you are actually asking is for the discursive output of my experience, the payload, the stuff, the magic dust. You want the music from my guitar and you want me to sing it to you, and if I don't, I'm tap dancing, right?

You're really overthinking this one. I'm asking a very straightforward question. There are not two different things going on here until you start splitting them. I just want to know what you think these practices have done to change the quality of your life. It's a very simple question.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 9, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Michelle Bachmann is all the proof i need against intelligent design.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 9, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
The only real antidote to supernatural theism, the lifeblood of Abrahamic religion, is science.

Yep.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 9, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Yes, yes, and we can't touch our elbows or taste our tongues. I don't see how that automatically means that there are ghosts in those machines either. There are parameters, and they just are.


Who said there are ghosts in the machine? And it's you who is insisting we are machines, not me. What I think you are rally fighting against is the idea that there are ghosts in the machine, but what do you mean by ghosts? I'd wager that you'd mean there was a non-physical dimension, such as sentience, and to try and avoid this simple fact, you keep pointing at the meant brain, as if when asked about rain, you keep pointing at the cloud. Which you can do, but the raindrop is still there as a physical thing. Sentience never is. It's not a paradox. It's just not physical in the normal way our discursive minds are accustomed to. That's all that's being said here. There's no mention of Gods or ghosts or any such thing. Again, I'd like to heard your definition of "ghost in the machine?" Again, my sense is that the very idea of an non-physical dimension is a non-starter, because that's how the discursive mind thinks, having nothing to do with what is actually real.

So far as what the experiential adventures return on the dollar, so to speak, it's the same as with all explorations: we learn something new and totally amazing and unimaginable before the ship launched. For instance, there was no way I would ever have believed that the rational mind was just a tool with built in limitations, or that the blind spots in our perception start to fill in when you get quiet, or that one's true nature, beyond and before any facts or figures or definitions, will slowly take shape once you shut up. These all have added a remarkable richness to life and a much broader understanding of the reasons people are the way they are, including myself.

Now if you had any specific area of interest in that regards, speak up and I'll try and address it however I can. I make no claims to being an expert about anything.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 9, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Beth & Joe - Strange Fruit
[Click to View YouTube Video]
For Largo only...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2013 - 04:59pm PT

But this model is not the same when used to discuss sentience. We all know that the brain and self awareness are discrete facets of reality. Whether we believe that the meat brain sired self awareness or not, in whole or part, is not the point here. The point is that, so far as our discursive minds are concerned, self awareness is to the brain what music is to the guitar. The guitar created music, in a sense, and the brain creates sentience, the thinking goes.

I pictured Sentience as being the awareness to the fact that our machine based logical mind is not always in control of our objective reality. That our feelings and emotions have direct access to overriding the linear logic of the meat.. Sentience would be the brain's understanding that the body is an emotional being. NOT a machine. A plant can't have Sentience. Animals do.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 9, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Who said there are ghosts in the machine?

Uhhhhh... maybe the Largo who writes every other sentence in your posts.

It's just not physical in the normal way our discursive minds are accustomed to.

Maybe you just need an editor.

There's no mention of Gods or ghosts or any such thing.

Okay, if you say so.

So far as what the experiential adventures return on the dollar, so to speak, it's the same as with all explorations: we learn something new and totally amazing and unimaginable before the ship launched. For instance, there was no way I would ever have believed that the rational mind was just a tool with built in limitations, or that the blind spots in our perception start to fill in when you get quiet, or that one's true nature, beyond and before any facts or figures or definitions, will slowly take shape once you shut up. These all have added a remarkable richness to life and a much broader understanding of the reasons people are the way they are, including myself.

Yes. That's what I was wondering. It's good to understand that, a much more approachable way to get at what you're saying.

Now if you had any specific area of interest in that regards, speak up and I'll try and address it however I can. I make no claims to being an expert about anything.

There is one thing. A lot of the cajoling you do here refers to "having the sac" to "do the work" and implies that there is some unpleasantness involved in breaking the dominance of "discursive" habits of mind. Is this correct? If so, why? If, metaphorically, it's part of an awakening, then why do we struggle to remain asleep?
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
The stupid dog malnutt says -- "they do not want intelligent design taught."


Stupid unintelligent people want to remain stupid like the stupid unintelligent Malmutt.

Stupid Malemute keep posting your quotes that you can't even understand.

We need thousands of them, ... keep em coming ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 9, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
Except for Dipstick here,

humans are machines that turn energy into ideas.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
^^^^

Humans are ideas that turn energy into machines.

Fixed it for ya
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 9, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 9, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
The anti-science rabble, still shuckin' and jivin'...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuckin%27_and_jivin%27

Shuckin' and jivin' usually involves clever lies and impromptu storytelling, used to one-up an opponent.

In the modern age, expect shuckin and jivin' that is, protective and evasive behavior, lots of it, by Abrahamic supernaturalists, when confronted by science and/or evidence and/or reason.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 9, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
"The more I read and the more I listen, the more apparent it is that our society suffers from an alarming degree of public ignorance."

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor
Last Thursday in Idaho
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 9, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
There is one thing. A lot of the cajoling you do here refers to "having the sac" to "do the work" and implies that there is some unpleasantness involved in breaking the dominance of "discursive" habits of mind. Is this correct? If so, why? If, metaphorically, it's part of an awakening, then why do we struggle to remain asleep?


In a word, when you get quiet and the white noise settles a bit (our monkey mind), our natural ego defenses calve away and the old cave man fears spring up. The Suffis and various 4th Way paths sometimes call this, "The Beast." It's really just the repository of all of our unconscious terror and wounds and when it starts bubbling up it can be intense.

And everyone has it. That's why it's good to have a group and a teacher who's rattled through it all. I don't know anyone who has meditated for a number of decades who has not had a number of so-called spiritual and psychological "crises." After enough of these you stop worrying and just keep forging on.

But yes, there are a lot of inner prohibitions to jumping out past the discursive mind. I think it is an evolutionary step, but it is not mechanically induced, but must be consciously fostered, though most people have at sometime in their lifetimes a few "boundary experiences" where they get a glimpse at something beyond the pale.

But again, the work is counterintuitive and at times scary and grim. But also fantastically calm and vast in turn. Like the biggest wall you'll never summit. The main thing is to start climbing. Once you do, God, Devils, heaven, and all that jazz are just so many ways of labeling the one big experiential wave that has no name in any language.

JL
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 9, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
because all facts show that we evolved from apes

You're a bit off here. That is what the anti-evolution crowd gnashes their teeth over. More accurately, man evolved along with other hominids from a common ancestor. Apes didn't exist as we know them then.

Unless you have some research that says otherwise..
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Dr Failed -- "...but religious folks just shove him into the argument just because that is their belief.

They cannot believe that God is not a part of reality"

There's no "belief"

It's a bonafide scientific fact that God exists.

Modern scientists are just plain stupid to the science of God consciousness.

Even simple consciousness, modern material scientists fall completely apart and lose their minds .......
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 9, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
It's a bonafide scientific fact that God exists

There's a one million dollar prize to the first person who can offer just one indisputable supernatural event. I assume that proof of god's hand in anything would qualify. You might want to bring that evidence to them so you can claim the prize: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

Oh, my bad: the prize is now 1.4 million with accrued interest...

Edit: I'm sure you chose "bona fide" because the definition has the word "faith" in it... http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/bona+fide (and it indicates innocence or lack of knowledge of any fact that would cast doubt on the right to hold title.)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 9, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
" . . . to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy."

Fact is, the earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to massive speculation. What, exactly, went bang.

What's more, some small way into the "expansion," a phase transition is believer to have caused a cosmic inflation, and that before that lies a big "unknown."

So in fact we are explaining the "beginning" of the universe by way of a theory whose very beginnings, by all current definitions, are themselves unknown.

Is this "scientific lunacy?" Really?

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 9, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Once you do, God, Devils, heaven, and all that jazz are just so many ways of labeling the one big experiential wave that has no name in any language.

That's entirely understandable and really clears up some of the puzzling parts, though I may be still a little leery on how it proceeds to certain conclusions about reality and such.

Thanks for the reply.

Meanwhile, World keep on turnin', Quantifiers, keep on quantifyin'...

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/06/219246974/scientists-put-a-sixth-sense-for-numbers-on-brain-map

WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
There's a one million dollar prize to the first person who can offer just one indisputable supernatural event.

Stupid prize.

Idiots think money prize is going to bring out the truth.

Stupid scientists are even stupider then ever.

No one can be that that stupid.

But it's true .... they are ......
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 9, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
But Ducky, we only need one event. If god is so pervasive in its works, that should be a simple matter to resolve...
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
You don't need one event while "THE EVENT" is happening right before you unrestricted incessantly.

You're just plain blind ......
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 9, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
You don't need one event while "THE EVENT" is happening right before you unrestricted incessantly.

You're just plain blind ..

Prove it.

I'll wait....
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
Yes you will wait ...

Forever ..... because you're just plain stupid.

Exactly what Largo has been saying.

No work no gain.

Stupid people just plain wait .......
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 9, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
Ducky- Thanks for providing these humorous interludes to my ST experience!

I look forward to more of your obdurate comments that fly in the face of logic and debate protocol. (Here's the definition link so you don't have to spend too much mental energy thinking about it: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obdurate )
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
You are welcome skeptic man.

It's perfectly OK to be skeptical by the way ......

:-)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 9, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
It's crucially important to have a degree of skepticism.
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
where science provides the final word

LOL absolutes again.

Then again it's alright to remain atheist.

It worst to be theist and not know what the real truth is and mislead.

Now after this intermission we can all go back and thrash each other again to kingdom come ......

:-)
MH2

climber
Sep 9, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
I wasn't asking you about my experience, but rather your own.


You may have thought so, but it wasn't my words you were responding to. They were your own. You need to do more work on your self before curiosity about others has a place to inhabit.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 9, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
I think most people have had boundary experiences where the normal limits or perceiving are transcended. Of course these moments fade when we try and figure things out, but it's only human to do so. But rather appeal to our imaginations to fathom the beyond, whatever that might be, perhaps recall r any illuminated moments in your life, and keep "God" and discursive ideas out of the memory. Maybe you will sense something greater than your own mind.

Maybe not. But nobody can prove it for you.

MH3 says: " I wasn't asking you about my experience, but rather your own.

You may have thought so, but it wasn't my words you were responding to. They were your own. You need to do more work on your self before curiosity about others has a place to inhabit.

Jeeze, how'd I never make my way in the world without you LOL.

Nice try, but you whiffed again with another bumbling attempt at "tefloning" away from accounting for our own self in any substantive and honest way (known in psychology as "deflection"). But it's not too late to acquit yourself by leaving off with the forked-tongue reversals, take your own self seriously for a moment (it won't kill you), and say something, anything about your life, your ideas, your experience, your beliefs, lest we might think you are sans self, while mistaking yourself for a mirror.

Or else I'm afraid you've have to return to that corner and put on the pointy hat for equivocating and impudence.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 10, 2013 - 12:09am PT
You need to do more work on your self before curiosity about others has a place to inhabit.

But by the end of the week, you gotta sip some spirits around the fire and bump fists to know
where you are..

Jus look at drf, he's gotta rebel of others to know who he is. That's why I figure he's so mad.
Confident people don't usually get flustered from others opinion


Edit: either that or he's drunk
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 10, 2013 - 10:39am PT
Nice posts Malemute. The puzzling, and troubling, thing is that you have to post them at all.....medieval America lives on.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 10, 2013 - 10:49am PT
To believe in this book is to believe in a God that's mercurial, vengeful, narcissistic, and possibly insane.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:08am PT
So Sully,

Why is it that the Christian is so quick to condemn one who sports a Buddist slogan tattoo just above her butt crack when that persons race, religion, butt crack is none of their f*#king business? Christians judging others as hypocrites. The irony is palpable.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:23am PT
God is much more plausible and interesting to me as what is or what is behind everything: energy, matter, time, space, thought, emotion, etc. rather than some old male humanoid or other physical caricature of something that would likely be unlike anything we know.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:24am PT
if religion is merely an expression of human culture,
why wouldn't it be appreciated without needing to accept the underlying belief?

I can listen to a Bach Fugue and not have to believe in Bach's religion, I can read Newton without having to affect his rather peculiar (even for the time) religious beliefs...

The idea of universality which is expressed in Buddhism, or the complementarity expressed in Taoism, are just as likely to be a human construction as the big bang theory, evolution or any other scientific thought.

Atheist can appreciate the products of this culture, and can and do appropriate the symbols of those cultures in celebration of their connection with humanity.

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:27am PT
never said you were christian, atheist or tattooed, rhetorical question Sully. just like yours.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:42am PT
What, Sully's a Christian?

That explains it.

.....


Apparently, she's deleting her posts. Again? Still? What's up with that, anyhow.

Indecisiveness?

Shame?

.....

if religion is merely an expression of human culture,
why wouldn't it be appreciated without needing to accept the underlying belief?

I've long appreciated religion on many counts including its evolution and role in history without accepting its underlying truth-claims.

Unfortunately it's hard to appreciate this side of it - or to express this side of it - when you've had to "take sides" against religion (particularly Abrahamic religion, Christianity or Islam in particular), either (a) for its continuing promulgation of iron-age superstitions as truth; or (b) on behalf of science (advocating for science). It's a bummer, but in the future attitudes will be different, hopefully.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
re: fate
re: scientism

Note there's no useful noun-person corresponding to "fate." If you believe in fate (in the good sense), what noun-person do you identify with? "Fatalist"? No thanks.

Note there's no useful noun-person corresponding to "scientism". Say you advocate for scientism or believe in scientism, what do you call yourself? A "scientist" - lol. A "scientisticist"? A "scientistician"? Yeah, they're going to love those identifiers, lol.

Language has a role in all this. Of course it does. Causing trouble, etc.. Which of course works to the benefit of the status quo - including the Abrahamic supernaturalists and their institutions.

.....

Many consider natural Buddhism an education system and not a religion at all. If I didn't think this education system could be improved upon, I'd identify with Buddhism far far ahead of Abrahamic supernaturalism (religion).

God is much more plausible and interesting to me as what is or what is behind everything: energy, matter, time, space...

This is the way the "god concept" as a higher power is evolving. Were American culture to ever get around to giving this impersonal form of "higher power" a name (e.g., Diacrates or whatever) for simple personification sake and were it to grow in popularity, then note that Christians would be forced to refer to their God by His name for clarity sake at least in mixed company. ("Which 'God'?") Wouldn't that be the day! Would love to be around to see it. :)

In my own "idiosyncratic vocabulary" I have the term "Cosmic Governance" (for the First Cause or Higher Power behind the natural laws or the Grand Mystery) that I sometimes call "God". As a substitute. But I seldom use it in public because I know it could cause a lot of confusion / misunderstanding in this still highly superstitious culture even though it is far far afield from the personal God of Abraham (God Jehovah) of the J,C,I trilogy.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 10, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
I think with both serious science and serious experiential ventures the aim is to find out what is true, what our life is, where we came from, where we are going, and what life actually is. We need both objective and experiential takes on this because we not only have physical bodies but we live in a self-contained subjective bubble from which our lives unfolds. There's no escaping it - till we're toast.

If you look at science even as an amateur like me, you will be amazed by how many things per physical reality are counterintuitive, or run dead contrary to what our sense organs might tell us, and are far removed from "common sense." I have found this to also be the case in the internal adventures. In each area a structured, systematic approach infused by teachers and experts gratly steepens the leaarning curve. Neither should require any more than rudimentary beliefs (this is worthwhile, legitimate, etc.), and whenever someone says or acts as though they have an excluisive on the truth, run for the hills.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
That was an interesting piece in the NYT a few days back to which Ed linked re: neural net-driven poker playing machines. It's truly mind-blowing both the state of the art that we already have in AI and these enterprising humans who can think these up and then effect them. (Even with my background in EE and CS, I wouldn't know how to start nowadays, mind-blowing.) It occurs to me if we have this AI and learning and bluffing capability today we will almost certainly have machines tomorrow (capable of voice recognition, the works) as company or companions for the lonely, estranged, depressed, elderly. Wonder how effective they could be? both in lieu of pills, for eg, as a complement to a pet. Where there is innovation, there is hope.

.....

We need both objective and experiential takes on this because we not only have physical bodies but we live in a self-contained subjective bubble from which our lives unfolds.

Did you ever get around to reading that Leon Wiesaltier piece in The New Republic a few days back? It was a counterpoint to Steven Pinker's piece. If not, it might be worth your while.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114548/leon-wieseltier-responds-steven-pinkers-scientism

It certainly helps crystallize the battlefield.

Crimes Against Humanities
"Now science wants to invade the liberal arts, don't let it happen."
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 01:32pm PT


if religion is merely an expression of human culture,
why wouldn't it be appreciated without needing to accept the underlying belief?

I can listen to a Bach Fugue and not have to believe in Bach's religion, I can read Newton without having to affect his rather peculiar (even for the time) religious beliefs...

The idea of universality which is expressed in Buddhism, or the complementarity expressed in Taoism, are just as likely to be a human construction as the big bang theory, evolution or any other scientific thought.

Atheist can appreciate the products of this culture, and can and do appropriate the symbols of those cultures in celebration of their connection with humanity.


The atheists on this thread need to read this and take it to heart and get off this mean-spited and obsessive-compulsive jihad aimed at religion and religionists.
Not likely to happen because this haranguing is driven by psychological factors and not motivations based in reason or moral necessity, despite the phony bloviating and cause célèbre hand wringing.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 10, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
It occurs to me if we have this AI and learning and bluffing capability today we will almost certainly have machines tomorrow (capable of voice recognition, the works) as company or companions for the lonely, estranged, depressed, elderly.

There was an old episode of Twilight Zone featured that idea:

In 2046, an inmate named Corry is sentenced to solitary confinement on a distant asteroid for 50 years. In his fourth year of confinement, he is visited by a spacecraft that regularly brings him supplies and news from the Earth four times a year. The ship and crew can stay for only a few minutes each visit, as the asteroid's orbit and the ship's fuel consumption rate make longer visits impossible.

Captain Allenby has been trying to make Corry's stay humanely tolerable by bringing him things to take his mind off the loneliness. On this trip on the 15th day of the 6th month of the fourth year, however, Allenby tells Corry not to open a certain crate that has just been delivered until after the transport crew leaves. Upon opening the special container, Corry discovers that Allenby has left him with a feminine robot, named Alicia, to keep him company. At first, Corry detests it, rejecting Alicia as a mere machine; synthetic skin and wires inside. However, when Corry sees that Alicia is in fact capable of crying, he begins to fall in love with it.

When the ship returns, Captain Allenby brings news that Corry has been pardoned after a review of past murder cases, but they only have 20 minutes to leave. Corry, it seems, can return home to Earth immediately. Corry is delighted, until he learns that there is only room for 15 pounds of luggage, far too little for his robot companion, as there are seven other passengers on the ship from other asteroids. He frantically tries to find some way to take Alicia with him, arguing that it is not a robot, but a woman, and insisting that Allenby simply does not know it as he does. At that point, just as the rest of the transport crew is surprised at the sight of Alicia, Allenby suddenly draws his gun and shoots the robot in the face. The robot breaks down, malfunctioning, its face a mass of wire and broken circuitry which repeats the word "Corry". He then takes Corry back to the ship, assuring him he will only be leaving behind loneliness. "I must remember that", Corry says tonelessly. "I must remember to keep that in mind".
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Good one!

Alicia, meet Rayna...


Dr. McCoy: What else interests you besides gravity phenomena, Rayna?
Rayna: Everything. Less than that is betrayal of the intellect.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
If you look at science even as an amateur like me, you will be amazed by how many things per physical reality are counterintuitive, or run dead contrary to what our sense organs might tell us, and are far removed from "common sense."

This is central to the history of science in modern times. When science remained in a Newtonian era it was like the old jalopy that could be worked on by an ordinary fellar ;It was user-friendly for the ordinary educated person.
This situation changed : gradually beginning in the late 19th century ,and accelerating in the 20th.
Rather suddenly the discoveries of science were impenetrable by ordinary folks. Sound in the form of radio waves could be transported over great distances, time was relative , a tiny atom could be unlocked to release massive amounts of energy and destruction.

An alienation developed between ordinary people and the world of science ---as society struggled to cope with the impact of mysterious powerful things it did not understand.
This adaption and adjustment to the dictates of science and technology took form in the popular culture at large.
In the first half of the 20th century ,especially after the atom bomb of 1945 ,we started to see aliens, UFOs, robots, blobs released from laboratories by mad scientists. In Japan, where the bombs rendered their apocalypse, we began to see giant monsters, the size of mushroom clouds, released by inscrutable nature upon an innocent and powerless mankind.

This psychologically based adaption to science and technology is still going on ---in a thousand modified forms, to accommodate thousands of newer innovations and their impacts.
Unlike art or philosophy, the discoveries and developments of technology and science are inherently socially and psychologically transforming for human society at large .
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Consider Huxley's Brave New World (1931)

This was concomitant (despite being adapted from a much earlier novel) with the first of the Universal monster flicks, such as Frankenstein that featured a mad scientist technologically erasing the age old dividing line between life and death, and consequently inflicting his insane result in the form of a murderous stalking monster on the innocent local populace.

The Invisible Man in which an ambitious scientist renders himself invisible to ordinary senses , becomes megalomanically deranged, and proceeds to launch a homicidal sociopathic project ,with the end in mind of subjugating society to himself.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:13pm PT

Susan
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
The Ister
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Seems that all religions are metaphorical manifestations of human psychological need. The contemplation of our own annihilation or the annihilation of our loved ones is simply too much to imagine without some justifying or reconciling support.

It is the cleverness of the human imagination that fills the world with so many deities that are so locally different but at their base almost exactly the same.

Ultimately whether you favor science, religion or both you must come to terms with the idea that something comes from nothing and something (namely yourself) can become nothing... and that's not easy.

Religion seeks to reconcile you psychologically through metaphor, science claims to seek the possible discomfort of truth, but either way your annihilation is inevitable. In the meantime arguing about such matters is just another comfortable but brief distraction from the contemplation of that absolutely sure fate.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:27pm PT

Dr. Strangelove
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
No Paul, your post once again totally discounts the believer for whom it is much more than metaphorical.

Perhaps you like many others grew up without knowing any?

The go-b and blus and splitters, from just this site alone, are literalists. Please, face reality. Go spend time with them if you have to.

Don't you watch tv or the news out of the ME? The Arab and Persian world is chock-full of them. For them, their religious narratives are history, they are anything but metaphorical.

I went to school with a half dozen fundamentalist Iranians. You could be their friend and blaspheme and they will kill you at their chosen hour because they KNOW it would be what God wants.

American culture is theologically illiterate - it was so throughout the middle ages, the 19th and 20th centuries and this one so far, too. Theological illiteracy. And this notion that it is "merely" metaphorical is part of it.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
That's just it: people are dying and killing for metaphors all over the world.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
That's just it: people are dying and killing for metaphors all over the world.

Okay, perhaps there is some miscom here then.

Point blank: Do you agree that amongst many demographics around the country and world the stories are taken literally, to the letter, and not metaphorically (except for the obvious allegory and such)?

Yes? No? Simple answer, please.

.....

Of course what we can hope for - esp in those regions where they are killing each other over the iron-age stories they grew up with that they tell each other to give their lives meaning - is that the literal more and more gives way to the metaphorical (interpretation) as civilization advances.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Of course. That's the pathetic point.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
The failure of religion in a general sense is to misinterpret metaphor as history.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Yay. Consensus.

Yes, in this context: Utter tragedy.

.....

Paul,

This issue is a real one though. In this piece I just referenced by Leon Weisteltier, he himself is an example - perhaps from living too much in an ivory tower I don't know - who believes only a scant per cent (of backwater ignorant folk) take the bible stories literally.

Here it is, verbatim,
"Only a small minority of believers in any of the scriptural religions, for example, have ever taken scripture literally."

This is just dead wrong. This man's got to get out and experience the world. Or something.

Indeed, our own resident Jan has expressed same or similar on occasion.

Utter nonsense.

Of course it could also be strategy, some sort of shuck and jive strategy, played by some, to influence or persuade the remaining old-world literalist along a more compassionate and charitable path (hoping they might eventually "get it" on their own). Who knows, really. But as it stands, it's dead wrong on the face of it.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Ward, not Ralph Ellison's The Invisible Man where the protagonist is an invisible African American (post Harlem Renaissance), right?

Correct. Ellison's book was titled " Invisible Man" without "The"

Well's novella, from which the movie was adapted , was titled The Invisible Man

LOL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
http://www.thegoddamnapocalypse.com/

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
That's just it: people are dying and killing for metaphors all over the world.

Hear that, go-B? Blu? Splitter? Illusiondweller?

Hear that Muhammad, Said, Makmoud? Hamza? Abbas? Get on with your Reformation and Renaissance, your own 30-years war, whatever.

Upgrade!

Then maybe the whole world can then get on to the other problems of civilization it faces now, or is soon to face. Once and for all, it's time to get the God of Abraham out of the problem solving. Just a suggestion. ;)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
I replied to a thread at this sight that elicited crazy predictions.
It was actually concocted from a rough story idea .
There is room for a revival of the humanities , somewhere as part of the new nation founded in the wake of the resource wars of the 2030s.
This revival is spearheaded by a descendant of Sullly's :


Aug 3, 2013 - 10:22am PT
I predict that by the 2020s we will see the first supercomputers designing new generations of supercomputers, with material innovations now on the horizon. The first credible android/ cyborgs will start to emerge , designed and built by other computers.

In the 2030s regional resource wars will break out, culminating in some sort of hideous conflict by 2035 in which nuclear weapons will be used on a somewhat large scale, resulting in the subsequent death of millions of people , largely by radioactive contamination of the environment and food chain .

The 2040s will be a period of recovery from these hideous wars and environmental devastation.
A new nation will be founded attracting growing numbers of disaffected people who seek to escape what they consider the folly of a world based upon the runaway excesses of technology.d
The world essentially will be divided between these two camps-- the 'naturals ' who favor a restricted and highly controlled technological society and the 'techs ' who favor no restrictions on technological growth.

In the early 2050s supercomputers will become so advanced that they will start to exhibit strong independent and autonomous characteristics . These highly advanced "supers "collectively develop a meta-program so awesomely powerful that it links every computer on earth and begins to solve problems with absolutely astounding solutions, at ever- increasing incredible speed. The cures for almost all human disease, like cancer, are finally realized, as well as a reversal of the radioactive genetic damage from the wars of the 2030s..
These computers ,having been built and designed by other computers, will consist almost entirely of different materials and components from the puny ones we have today.

By the 2060s the meta-program , which is not located in any one specific locale, has grown so powerful and omnipresent that it has designed and controls every aspect of collective human life, from food production, resource extraction, manufacturing, and environmental regulation and management. Computers do everything.

By 2070 the meta-program has decided that humans , at a population of 14 billion, represent a continuing threat to the integrity of the planet and to an ever growing legion of Artificial Intelligences.
The meta-program therefore designs a highly specialized group of viruses that can kill a person within an hour and subsequently massively dehydrate the corpse in another hour. Humans go from apparent health to a pile of dust in 2 hours.

The meta-program decides to eliminate 98% of the human race...
The year: 2072.

(I could be off by a year or two on that.)


Edit

Now. Doesn't that sound more appealing than a future world of techno-cannibal social media ants with Miley Cyrus as the queen bee?
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
utilitarian hard-on
. = Science as God


Susan
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
whenever someone says or acts as though they have an excluisive on the truth, run for the hills.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 10, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
But the US currently has a utilitarian hard-on.

nothing current about it, sullly, as you know from your reading of Alexis de Tocqueville, in fact, that's the way the US has always rolled, until the situation in Europe in the 1930's caused a dispersal of the intellectual and artistic to the corners of the world, one of those corners being the US... which they enriched...

...but now we're back to the way things were before. Practical.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
This just in... the great Dan Dennett weighs in, lol... on the recent Pinker-Wieseltier (science vs humanities) dustup...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-dennett/post_5592_b_3901577.html

Yeah, I'm probably the only one following this but I post anyway as part of my own journey and journal of thought.

Also Jerry Coyne offered up his thoughts, as well...

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/leon-wieseltier-attacks-pinker-for-scientism/

Now we just need Neil deGrasse Tyson for the tri-fecta. ;)

Poor, poor Leon.

.....

OMG!!!!

And now Steven Pinker just tweeted...

My own reply to Leon Wieseltier should appear in The New Republic on-line shortly.

Talk about exciting! :)
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 10, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Yeah, I'm probably the only one following this but I post anyway as part of my own journey and journal of thought.

No HFC ... Since you posted it awhile back I've gotten caught up with the "he said, he said, he said". Always been a Pinker fan, so thanks for that link...didn't know about it!

Susan
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 10, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Susan,
Always been a Pinker fan...

Well, that's neat! :)

.....

"The third culture consists of those scientists and other thinkers in the empirical world who, through their work and expository writing, are taking the place of the traditional intellectual in rendering visible the deeper meanings of our lives, redefining who and what we are."

John Brockman
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 11, 2013 - 01:14am PT
Alright, I'll add a contribution to this quotesfest...
Postmodernism, the school of "thought" that proclaimed "There are no truths, only interpretations" has largely played itself out in absurdity, but it has left behind a generation of academics in the humanities disabled by their distrust of the very idea of truth and their disrespect for evidence, settling for "conversations" in which nobody is wrong and nothing can be confirmed, only asserted with whatever style you can muster.

Daniel Dennett

O this one's really good...
"Those [philosophers, pro or amateur] who want to be taken seriously when they launch inquiries about such central philosophical topics as morality, free will, consciousness, meaning, causality, time and space had better know quite a lot that we have learned in recent decades about these topics from a variety of sciences.

Unfortunately, many in the humanities [not to mention the climbing world, lol] think that they can continue to address these matters the old-fashioned way, as armchair theorists in complacent ignorance of new developments.

You can't defend the humanities by declaring it off limits to amateurs. The best way for the humanities to get back their mojo is to learn from the invaders and re-acquire the respect for truth that they used to share with the sciences.

Daniel Dennett
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:01am PT
Postmodernism, deconstruction, poststructuralism and late 20th c. French philosophy in general are nothing more than the logical conclusion of modernism in which it turns desperately on itself in order to demonstrate a continued "modernist" "progress."

Postmodernism is the celebration of an undermining critique predicated on the discovery of irony and hypocrisy in any hegemony and is used primarily as a device for political critique.

The problem is that political thought is ultimately meaningless in the face of what is grave and constant in human experience. And those grave and constant experiences require the reconciliation of religious, spiritual or aesthetic experience.

Political critique addresses only those elements of social concern and these are ephemeral, transitory and momentary: your politics will not prevent your eventual death. Post modernism does not address the terrible realities and mystery of our mortality and the infinite nature of our context.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out as the the baby boom generation realizes that political equality, peace and justice among men will not mediate our mortality.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:17am PT
Hey, just watched the Twilight Zone episode, "The Lonely," that Largo referenced a couple pages back. Not bad for 1959!

Here's Alicia...

I want one. :)
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:25am PT
Think I was ten when I saw that episode, the debut. I was traumatized so badly I couldn't sleep for ten years and eventually took up climbing.
MH2

climber
Sep 11, 2013 - 11:25am PT
But it's not too late to acquit yourself by leaving off with the forked-tongue reversals, take your own self seriously for a moment (it won't kill you), and say something, anything about your life, your ideas, your experience, your beliefs, lest we might think you are sans self, while mistaking yourself for a mirror.


I like oatmeal.


As for the rest of it, there are a few posts of mine on the site that might help you out, and if you were interested in that stuff you would not need to ask.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 11, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
Susan,
Always been a Pinker fan...

Well, that's neat! :)

Well HFC...went and read the Pinker/Weisepeltier point/counterpoint. Reminded me of why I'm glad I'm retired and away from academia. My brain just doesn't work that way anymore. I "got it" but it just didn't wow me like it would have in days past. Hardening of the dendrites, I suspect. So back to my regular scheduled lurking on this thread...it's like sitting in the Coliseum...love it! Yeah the Lions, Yeah the Christians, Yeah everybody else too!

Susan
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 11, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
Paul said: Postmodernism is the celebration of an undermining critique predicated on the discovery of irony and hypocrisy in any hegemony and is used primarily as a device for political critique.
-


Postmodernism was a political device for political thinkers. For writers, visual artists, musicians, and so forth, long bound by extant forms and formulas, postmodernism had less to do with criticizing what was and more to do with slipping the moorings of the old, whatever they were. In a sense, postmodernism was a declaration that a majority of so-called absolute forms were in fact so many "Hilbert spaces," provisional structures used to organize reality, rather than last words on reality itself. That freed up Miles Evans and Bill Evans to fashion Kind of Blue, and for Jackson Pollock to start slinging paint around. And maybe a few scientists to think, "Never mind that; what about this?"

Imagine a dog slithering from a creek and shaking itself off.

And Fruity, where'd you find that episode of Twilight Zone. Lonely is a total classic. Don't start thinking the dramatic arts didn't know their way around a stage in 1959.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 11, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
Largo, I happen to have a friend of a friend of a... who has the series and was thinking of the most expedient way to get this episode to you. As a borrow, of course. ;) But then in seconds I found this...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYbKjSCA-fs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCleX01rPqI



Is there such a thing as copyright anymore, lol!

Now of course if you have a YT download button - doesn't everybody these days? - voila, it's yours!

.....

Susan, I sympathize. I know exactly what you mean. :)

Btw, if you haven't already and if you have any interest left, Jerry Coyne an evolutionist who follows and blogs about these many "culture wars" gives a pretty clear and straightforward response to the rhetorical flourish if not bs of Leon Weitseltier that's pretty easy on the neurons...

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/leon-wieseltier-attacks-pinker-for-scientism/
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
The Twilight Zone episode " The Lonely" has always been one of my favorites.
The casting was excellent, Jack Warden being almost perfect in the lead role.
Death Valley does a masterful job playing the episode location.
John Dehner (Allenby) should be recognizable as one of the notable workhorse character actors in TV during the 50s and 60s. He epitomized a casting directors , producer, and directors ideal professional journeyman in the golden age of the TV character actor: dependable, punctual, a firm grasp of the script and his role, a fast learner, and very easy to work with.

This episode was the 7th episode of the first season ; the very next week an even greater TZ classic aired: Time Enough At Last with Burgess Meredith. Later that same season The Hitchhiker. When only these three are considered its easy to see why the series went on to become a hit and is still watched and talked about 50 yrs. later.

http://www.amazon.com/Twilight-Zone-Companion-Scott-Zicree/dp/1879505096

For myself the central meaning of The Lonely was the conversion of Warden's character.
His loneliness is the only dimension in his life. He is given a sort of palliative to that awesome loneliness in the form of the robot, which he initially rejects because it offends his sense of authenticity.
However , over time he is seduced by a heady combination of advanced technology and the continuing corrosive barren condition he is subject to. He is seduced by his own loneliness and the power this need for love and companionship has over him to transform an artificial simulated life into a real organic one.

For just a moment the dividing line between organic and inorganic is erased under the powerfully devastating crucible of this man's loneliness .

It takes one gun shot to arouse him from his nightmarish trance and restore the world to its realistic place in his psyche. It coincides with his loneliness having been officially paroled.
jstan

climber
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
I read most of the link immediately above but I have to go. This Weit.. guy is off the charts.

The common procedure seems to be that of stringing six words together that sound alright but then surrounding it with context that isn't alright. The idea being that readers stop thinking immediately as they have encountered a string of six words that seem believable. The assumption is that we are lazy.

Once more I will try and answer the question in this thread's title.

1. Because some people who proudly and loudly call themselves christian do some very unchristian and hateful things.
2. And Christians who aren't so narcissistic, don't object.

We went to the Anti-Vietnam protest in DC in 1970. Nearly a million of us stood there quietly in the most respectable clothes we had, but a disorderly group of screaming people waving flags ran up and down the street. Christianity may be having the same problem we had then. The TV cameras gravitate toward meaningless motion and miss the quietly determined response of millions.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Here's some apparent proof that no matter how many idiotic decisions you might make, Jeebus'll watch your back for you.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Of course, in fact, they're just lucky it didn't rain harder.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 11, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
...better than anything except being loved by God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 12, 2013 - 12:13am PT
Thanks, Fruity.

We so rarely get treated to drama that pared back, to a small ensemble cast in an intimate setting with limited scene breaks and shenanagans. Such a delicate art deftly played by wonderful, and as Ward pointed out, believable actors acting well within their limits. And dealing with the very kernal of existential aloneness. And the balm of compassion.

Such futuristic thinking to embody such great themes in a machine back in '59.

JL
squishy

Mountain climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 12, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
Christianity may be having the same problem we had then. The TV cameras gravitate toward meaningless motion and miss the quietly determined response of millions.

Excellent point, jstan. Also, as you pointed out, we tend to criticize others, but not try to fix our own, massive faults.

My own Christian faith still rests on a basic premise that Bible study and Christianity generally must result in a changed life of the believer. Otherwise, it's less useful than BS*, which can make plants grow better.

*Bullsh*t, not Bible study).

John
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 12, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Akin to them jamming AGW fear mongering Gore's book crap down the childrens throats

nice.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 12, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
If you know who David Laine Craig is, or his debate with Sam Harris a couple years ago, this is a must-see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZLbVzCHy7U

LOL!!

For background...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcO4TnrskE0
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 13, 2013 - 07:37pm PT

4) Is "consciousness" quantum?

5) Is"consciousness" supracausal?

6) Is "consciousness" supramaterial?
squishy

Mountain climber
Sep 13, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
Remember to clean the inside of your computer screen every 30 days or else your monitor will not last as long, see more info here: http://sboisse.free.fr/fun/ecran.swf
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 13, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
squishy, notwithstanding your whacky notion re a word and its meaning, you're a good man. :)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 15, 2013 - 11:30am PT
Why do people hate christianity?

I am reminded today of the 50 year anniversary of the Birmingham bombing of a church, killing three children, and carried out by the KKK, an American white supremacist CHRISTIAN organization.

Gosh, setting off IED's to kill innocent people. You wonder where radical Jihadists got the idea?

Only 50 years ago, and done on behalf of most of the posters on ST.

Why would anybody hate that?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 15, 2013 - 11:35am PT
What part of Christianity is advanced by bombing a church and killing kids? Those guys weren't working for Christ. Now, were they?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 15, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
Sep 13, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
TORAH – YHWH’S INSTRUCTIONS TO HIS PEOPLE

...
...
...

So, how do we get started?

Just as Peter set forth a simple minimum requirement for new gentile converts who had not yet been schooled in the Torah (Acts 15), I suggest the following as the first and immediate steps to be taken on a journey of personal restoration to Torah obedience.

1. Immediate cessation of the practice of celebrating the pagan holidays which we inherited from the Roman Catholic church (Christmas, Easter, New Years, Valentines Day, Halloween).

2. Honor and keep the Sabbath day, which is the seventh day of the week (Saturday). You will be blessed if you do. The Sabbath is the sign, the ONLY sign, that you are a child of YHWH.

3. Learn and keep the “Feasts of the Lord” as described in Leviticus 23. Learn to know the difference between what the Scriptures say about the holidays and what is practiced by Judaism. Do not fall in the trap of “over shooting the mark” and fall into another religious burden.

4. Learn the Master’s dietary rules as set forth in Leviticus 11. No more bacon, ham, clams, crab, lobster and the like. These are detestable to YHWH and should be to you also. It’s not that difficult to keep and you will be healthier for it, and blessed.

5. In the past 4 millenia, there is no record of anybody being born in Israel with the name of “Jesus.” It is not the Messiah’s name. His name is Yahushua (like Joshua). The Father’s name is Yahuwah. It’s not Adonai, LORD, or any of the other nicknames given him by religions. Learn to know Him by His proper name.

http://aletheia.consultronix.com/22.html

This one's for Klimmer!




Malemut,

I'll have to get back to you on this, but I'll say what I can now. Some good in the above, and lots of bad.

Remember, Rabbi Shaul (Apostle Paul) in many letters to the Messianic Judaic synagogues and "Christian" Churches in the NT dealt with this very topic.

The Jews are a covenant chosen people of G-d. Messianic Jews are the natural branch grafted into the Root of the Tree Yeshua, and Judaism. Gentiles are the wild branch grafted into the the Root of the Tree Yeshua, and Judaism.

The Jews are to remain Jews and to be Torah observant, all 613 commandments, but we know we'll never do it all and fall short. Yeshua picks up the slack. Keeping Shabbat, the Sabbath is a covenant sign between the Jews and HaShem. It is not required of Messianic Gentile believers.

Messianic Gentile believers are required to keep 9 of the 10 commandments, of the Noahic Law. They are not required to become Jews (they can't) or take on the 613 commandments. The only commandment that non Jews, Gentiles, don't have to keep is Shabbat, the Sabbath. They can worship on Sunday, or Sunday through Saturday. Any day of the week. Read the NT carefully and talk with Messianic Rabbis who have had to deal with this and know HaShem's word intimately. The Christendom world really messes up this understanding really bad.

Messianic Jews and Gentiles are brother and sisters in the Adonai, and can worship together and should. But Jews are to remain Jews. HaShem does not place the burden of the entire Torah on Gentiles, only the Jews.

Now if a Gentile wants to take on the Messianic Judaic customs and 613 commandments like his fellow brother and sisters who are Jews, then they can if they want to. But its not required.

I really miss King Crab and Lobster. Lol. But it's a small price to pay. So many more benefits beyond the missing these foods. Messianic Judaism is really deep. I'm learning a great deal beyond what I learned in Christendom.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 15, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
I believe these metaphors as historical truth. I believe these numbers as the truth. There is no middle ground here between these beliefs, because neither believe theirs are beliefs, but the solid stuff - basic truths.

JL
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 15, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
Why do you seek to separate individual man and consciousness and god and the universe and the entirety of existence?

Seems to me anyone who's had a serious, hard-core psychedlic, meditative, or otherwise "religious ecstasy/epiphany" type experience all come around to the same point...there is no "me" there is only the one, the all encompassing. I think of that as "god" but not in any kind of anthropomorphic sense, you could just as easily call it the universe, nature, whatever.

It's generally the sheeple follower types, who've never had this kind of mystical experience, who buy into these specific dogmas, "religions" etc. There is no difference in any of the cores of these religions, only the way a specific person of a specific time attempted to capture that experience and communicate it, before they got bastardized by power hungry men with dogma, ceremony, and dicates to control their fellow men.

Maslow captures this idea nicely in his "Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences".
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 16, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
"why does everyone hate christianity so much?"...

... because it's easier than discussing "the law of the 1st ascent"!!!
Anastasia

climber
Home
Sep 17, 2013 - 10:09am PT
I don't hate Christianity, or any of the traditional churches/religions. Though I have a rule, I don't consider any religion valid unless it's been around several hundred years. It's my way of avoiding cults and weird religions leaders that aren't good for you.

Overall religion is there to tell you that doing bad has consequences, that it's a very good idea to be nice. I get it and thus I don't bother with attending church often. I don't need the social aspect of having a group cheer you on for being nice. I'm not that socially dependent.

Plus, Lynne's best friend is Christ and I really like her even more for it.

Anastasia
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 17, 2013 - 10:52am PT
I don't consider any religion valid unless it's been around several hundred years. It's my way of avoiding cults and weird religions leaders that aren't good for you

So you're ok with a popular, long-lasting cult then.

All churches and all religions are a stand-between. Something trying to relate the original mystical experience of some dude...Jesus, Buddha, the Prophet, the schitzo guy on the city bus.

Why do you need a middle-man? Go directly to the source, experience it for yourself.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 17, 2013 - 11:02am PT
God is the great ubiquitous metaphor for daddy/the feary father (or mom). God is a metaphor for final authority, determining whether we eat, are healthy, successful, happy… in his approval, as in the approval of dad, we are taken care of, become ultimately happy. You might say the human race has daddy issues.

“As to the gods, we can never know if they exist or not, owing to the complexity of the problem and the brevity of our existence.” – some Greek.
WBraun

climber
Sep 17, 2013 - 11:03am PT
Small children always remain at the shallow end of the pool under supervision to splash ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 17, 2013 - 11:12am PT
- Is it possible to make a career out of the feeling of being hated by others?

 What advantages for the individual are "given/offered" by feeling, talking about and acting on the feeling of being hated by others?

 What advantages for the group are "given/offered" by feeling, talking about and acting on the feeling of being hated by others?

In what way can the feeling of being hated make you "big" in other peoples eyes in the social construction of reality?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 17, 2013 - 11:44am PT
As to the Greek...don't remember who, maybe Protagoras??
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 17, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
Better question:

Why does Christianity hate everyone so much?

Help me. I'm unfamiliar with that "Christianity."

John
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 17, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
Why does Christianity hate everyone so much?

Help me. I'm unfamiliar with that "Christianity."

Well, John, it's like this...

According to Christianity we have this innate smut, we're dirty (unclean), certainly undeserving of the Golden City of Immortality till it's remedied (thru divine forgiveness). Could this be the source of the "hate"? This innate "smut" btw, or inherited filth, derived from the Fall (otherwise Original Sin) is pure myth. As much myth as that other ancient "theory" regarding evil, disease and dying, bad happenings, in the world: Pandora's Box.

To outliers, your Original Sin is no more advanced than Pandora's Box. It's the 21st century, time to upgrade your beliefs (take some science courses if it helps) and time to start thinking more in terms of Christian mythology (or Abrahamic mythology) than Christian truth.

C'mon, do your part: Help the 21st century send. ;)


Till you're baptized, till you believe in God Jesus, till you're forgiven, you're "hated." There. That interpretation, I think, is as good, as valid, as any other coming out of the Halls of Abrahamic religion.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 17, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
HFCS,

If you correctly describe Christian theology, how do you explain, e.g., John 3:16?


John
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 17, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Sorry, John, I won't bite anymore, not today. :)

.....

For those interested, the very few if any, to see through the theistic mess described last page by the dialog between malemute and dmt re: "god" or "god concepts" see Daniel Dennett... jstan linked to it several days ago and I linked to it several years ago!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJZQwy9dvE

It's very good (he's very good) at highlighting the mess, the challenge of navigating it, and moreover the challenge of just dealing with it as part of an inter-generational, long-term process.

re: good reasons for belief in God (there aren't any) versus good reasons for professing belief in God (there are a few)

re: supers versus brights? bad idea
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 17, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
Good, HFCS, because I have work to do today that precludes taking many ST breaks.

Since we're pointing others to works to speak for us, though, I recommend The Reason For God by Tim Keller for a good counter-argument to some of the views expressed in this thread.

John
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 17, 2013 - 04:15pm PT

The West as a Muslim invention

"Islamic thought and learning transformed medieval Christendom beyond recognition, Lyons writes. A key import was natural philosophy, the precursor to modern science, and the idea that came with it: the notion of a university as an intellectual, cultural and social institution. Roger Bacon, the 13th-century English scientist and philosopher, travelled through Muslim Spain dressed as an Arab and was among the first to teach natural philosophy in Paris. Without these imports, Lyons says, the Renaissance would not have been possible and European “progress” as we know it would have been inconceivable. The Arabs gave Europeans their ideological and intellectual identity - indeed, Lyons suggests, “the West” itself is a Muslim invention.

But the West's gratitude to Islam was expressed in its wilful forgetting of the Arab legacy. This process began with the successors of Adelard and Scot and had four core themes: Islam distorts the word of God; it is spread solely by the sword; it perverts human sexuality; and its prophet, Muhammad, was a charlatan, an anti-Christ. It was thus necessary to write the Arab learning out of history and to claim direct descent from Greece. As Petrarch, one of the most prominent 14th-century anti-Arab intellectuals, declared: “I shall scarcely be persuaded that anything good can come from Arabia.” Scot's mastery of Arab learning led Dante to dump him in the lower depths of Hell, among the sorcerers."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 17, 2013 - 04:18pm PT

Secularism, religion and societal health

From Nebraska to Nepal, from Georgia to Guatemala, and from Utah to Uganda, humans all over the globe are vigorously praising various deities; regularly attending services at churches, temples, and mosques; persistently studying sacred texts; dutifully performing holy rites; energetically carrying out spiritual rituals; soberly defending the world from sin; piously fasting; and enthusiastically praying and then praying some more, singing, praising, and loving this or that savior, prophet, or God.

But that is not occurring everywhere. I am referring to two nations in particular, Denmark and Sweden, which are probably the least religious countries in the world, and possibly in the history of the world. Amidst all this vibrant global piety — atop the vast swelling sea of sacredness — Denmark and Sweden float along like small, content, durable dinghies of secular life, where most people are nonreligious and don't worship Jesus or Vishnu, don't revere sacred texts, don't pray, and don't give much credence to the essential dogmas of the world's great faiths.

In clean and green Scandinavia, few people speak of God, few people spend much time thinking about theological matters, and although their media in recent years has done an unusually large amount of reporting on religion, even that is offered as an attempt to grapple with and make sense of a strange foreign phenomenon out there in the wider world that refuses to disappear, a phenomenon that takes on such dire significance for everyone — except, well, for Danes and Swedes.

What are societies like when faith in God is minimal, church attendance is drastically low, and religion is a distinctly muted and marginal aspect of everyday life?

Many people assume that religion is what keeps people moral, that a society without God would be hell on earth: rampant with immorality, full of evil, and teeming with depravity. But that doesn't seem to be the case for Scandinavians in those two countries. Although they may have relatively high rates of petty crime and burglary, and although these crime rates have been on the rise in recent decades, their overall rates of violent crime — including murder, aggravated assault, and rape — are among the lowest on earth. Yet the majority of Danes and Swedes do not believe that God is "up there," keeping diligent tabs on their behavior, slating the good for heaven and the wicked for hell. Most Danes and Swedes don't believe that sin permeates the world, and that only Jesus, the Son of God, who died for their sins, can serve as a remedy. In fact, most Danes and Swedes don't even believe in the notion of "sin."

So the typical Dane or Swede doesn't believe all that much in God. And simultaneously, they don't commit much murder. But aren't they a dour, depressed lot, all the same? Not according to Ruut Veenhoven, professor emeritus of social conditions for human happiness at Erasmus University Rotterdam. Veenhoven is a leading authority on worldwide levels of happiness from country to country. He recently ranked 91 nations on an international happiness scale, basing his research on cumulative scores from numerous worldwide surveys. According to his calculations, the country that leads the globe — ranking No. 1 in terms of its residents' overall level of happiness — is little, peaceful, and relatively godless Denmark.

The connection between religion — or the lack thereof — and societal health is admittedly complex. It is difficult to definitively establish that secularism is always good for society and religion always bad. However, the often posited opposite claim is equally difficult to substantiate: that secularism is always bad for a society and religion always good. To be sure, in some instances, religion can be a strong and positive ingredient in establishing societal health, prosperity, and well-being. And when considering what factors contribute to the making of a good society, religion can be a positive force.

Here in the United States, for example, religious ideals often serve as a beneficial counterbalance against the cutthroat brand of individualism that can be so rampant and dominating. Religious congregations in America serve as community centers, counseling providers, and day-care sites. And a significant amount of research has shown that moderately religious Americans report greater subjective well-being and life satisfaction, greater marital satisfaction, better family cohesion, and fewer symptoms of depression than the nonreligious. Historically, a proliferation of religious devotion, faith in God, and reliance on the Bible has sometimes been a determining factor in establishing schools for children, creating universities, building hospitals for the sick and homes for the homeless, taking care of orphans and the elderly, resisting oppression, establishing law and order, and developing democracy.

In other instances, however, religion may not have such positive societal effects. It can often be one of the main sources of tension, violence, poverty, oppression, inequality, and disorder in a given society. A quick perusal of the state of the world will reveal that widespread faith in God or strong religious sentiment in a given country does not necessarily ensure societal health. After all, many of the most religious and faithful nations on earth are simultaneously among the most dangerous and destitute. Conversely, a widespread lack of faith in God or very low levels of religiosity in a given country does not necessarily spell societal ruin. The fact is, the majority of the most irreligious democracies are among the most prosperous and successful nations on earth.

Just to be perfectly clear here: I am not arguing that the admirably high level of societal health in Scandinavia is directly caused by the low levels of religiosity. Although one could certainly make such a case — arguing that a minimal focus on God and the afterlife, and a stronger focus on solving problems of daily life in a rational, secular manner have led to positive, successful societal outcomes in Scandinavia — that is not the argument I wish to develop here. Rather, I simply wish to soberly counter the widely touted assertion that without religion, society is doomed.

If you can smell my ax starting to grind here, your nostrils are in good working order. The claim that without religion, society is doomed deserves to be challenged because, aside from being poor social science, it is a highly political claim that is regularly promulgated.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 17, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
I've always wondered if the old testament god was pissed off and vengeful because he was single. Did he get divorced from Mother Nature?

If god did have a wife you know she'd be super hot and look like she's twenty, while god would still be an old man with a white beard, and he'd look at the camera and say "It's good to be God."

Only slightly less ridiculous is the image of Jesus as a dirty blond haired surfer dude with blue eyes. Did Jewish guys in the Biblical age really look like that?

Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Sep 17, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
I don't hate Christianity, I hate Christians.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 17, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
“the West” itself is a Muslim invention.


" yuuu...whoooooo.......Load of crap"
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 17, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
Ward

Your "yuuu...whoooooo" argument is not unexpected, but as usual a bit shallow. You can of course as usual insist on your argument's clearity or talk about something else...

To repeat Lyon's suggestion:

"Islamic thought and learning transformed medieval Christendom beyond recognition, Lyons writes. A key import was natural philosophy, the precursor to modern science, and the idea that came with it: the notion of a university as an intellectual, cultural and social institution. Roger Bacon, the 13th-century English scientist and philosopher, travelled through Muslim Spain dressed as an Arab and was among the first to teach natural philosophy in Paris. Without these imports, Lyons says, the Renaissance would not have been possible and European “progress” as we know it would have been inconceivable. The Arabs gave Europeans their ideological and intellectual identity - indeed, Lyons suggests, “the West” itself is a Muslim invention."

Can you do better?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 17, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
insist on your argument's clearity or talk about something else...

I thought I was pretty clear. Yuuu....hoooooo

At least my thoughts are my own , and not formulaic cut and paste propaganda.

Lyon is obviously a fool, a pseudo-intellectual who constructs and revises history to fit a rabidly endemic and hackneyed anti-western template.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 17, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
What's not to hate?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 17, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
I now think its time to momentarily stop this exhausting thread and enjoy a brief prayer

[Click to View YouTube Video]
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 17, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
Why do you guys cut and paste crap and make it look like you wrote it?

But that is not occurring everywhere. I am referring to two nations in particular, Denmark and Sweden,

My grandpa came from Sweden when he was 13. His whole family was Christian. I still have relatives there that are Christian. Some of my best friends in Solvang are Danish Christians. They go to Denmark a couple times a year to visit their Christian relatives. Therefor I think your propaganda is bunk.

You should've picked two nations like Russia and china. THEY are Christianless.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:40am PT
"Only 50 years ago, and done on behalf of most of the posters on ST....


That's an odd thing to write...

It's important to understand extremists. The extremists of whom I'm speaking killed children on behalf of the white race.

Just like the nazis killed all manner of people to maintain the purity of the master race (their version).

I'm not much in favor of ANYONE who believes in "master races" or religions, particularly when they kill to maintain purity.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:44am PT

Arabs, natural philosophy and the West

The theory of permanent Muslim-Christian enmity, though it flourishes in the caves of Tora Bora and parts of the American academy, was long ago exploded by the historians. In this clear and well-written book, Jonathan Lyons delves into all sorts of musty corners to show how Arabic science percolated into the Latin world in the middle ages and helped civilise a rude society.

He tells how Arab advances in astronomy, mathematics, engineering, navigation, geography, medicine, architecture, chemistry, gardening, finance and verse passed into Europe by way of the Crusader kingdoms, Sicily and Spain and prepared the ground for both the Renaissance and the scientific advances of the 16th and 17th centuries. This infiltration of ideas has left traces in our language, from alcohol, algebra and algorithm to the Arabic names of the bright stars Betelgeuse and Aldebaran.

With the fall of the Roman empire in the west, Europe lost touch with much of its classical inheritance and was isolated by the Arab invasions from the Byzantine empire where some ancient learning survived. Lyons recounts how early medieval Christendom was unable accurately to measure the time of day for monastic offices, or fix the date of Easter, while dogmatic schemes of scripture and hierarchy left little scope for natural science. Aristotle's influence was confined to the logic and rhetoric of the schools. Bishop Isidore of Seville promulgated the idea that the Earth was flat.

In contrast, when the Arabs conquered Iraq in the first half of the seventh century AD, they came upon living schools of Hellenistic learning in natural science and medicine, along with Indian mathematics and astronomy that had come by way of Iran. Systematic reasoning, driven out of Muslim jurisprudence in favour of precedents from the Prophet's life and conduct, found a new field of inquiry in ancient geography and cosmology. After the founding of Baghdad in AD762, the Abbasid caliphs established a library and a team of translators at the Beit al-Hikma, the "House of Wisdom" of Lyons's title.

A famous early catalogue of Arabic books known as the Fihrist lists as many as 80 Greek authors in Arabic translation, chief among them Aristotle, the mathematician Euclid and the medical philosophers Hippocrates and Galen. For this natural philosophy, the Arabs coined the word falsafa, and called its practitioners falasifa. The great Arabic philosophers such as Ibn Sina in Iran (known in Latin Europe as Avicenna, who died in 1037) and Ibn Rushd in Spain (Averroes, who died in 1198) found ways of inserting Aristotelian natural philosophy and Ptolemaic cosmology into a scriptural monotheism, which was precisely what the Latins needed. As Lyons writes, "Arabic replaced Greek as the universal language of scientific inquiry".

He begins with a vivid contrast. In 1109, 10 years after the Crusaders sacked Jerusalem and put Muslims, Jews and eastern Christians to the sword, Adelard of Bath, a well-born scholar, set off for Antioch not to kill Muslims but, as he put it, "to investigate the studies of the Arabs" (studia arabum). As so often in medieval biography, a few "facts" are made to work hard, and some scholars (though not Lyons) doubt Adelard ever mastered Arabic. Nonetheless, he is thought to have taken part in translations from Arabic of Euclid's geometric system, the elements, and the astronomical tables of al-Khwarizmi, and composed such original works as On the Use of the Astrolabe. For Lyons, Adelard is the "first man of science". Such was the prestige of Arabic learning in England, according to a startling passage here, that partisans of King Henry II, during the quarrel with Rome over Thomas Becket, threatened the king would convert to Islam.

The new learning spread. By the middle of the 12th century, Euclid and Pythagoras are arrayed with the Virgin on the west front of Chartres cathedral. Lyons summons up a world of itinerant scholars such as Michael Scot, who (in the words of one monk) "in Paris seek liberal arts, in Orléans classics, at Salerno medicine, at Toledo magic, but nowhere manners and morals". Scot found his way to the Arabising court of one of the "baptised Sultans", the Emperor Frederick II, where he translated Arabic commentaries on Aristotle and helped promote the great mathematician Leonardo of Pisa. Leonardo, generally known as Fibonacci, gave a systematic account of the Arab/Indian numerical system and "the sign 0, which the Arabs call zephyr", or rather sifr - and which we call the zero.

For the orthodox, these men reeked of brimstone, and Dante placed Michael with the wizards in the eighth circle of hell. St Thomas Aquinas brought a measure of peace to the church, but the systems of Aristotle and Ptolemy became rigid and brittle till they shattered in the Copernican revolution of the 16th century.

Why Muslim science and medicine remained in their medieval state in certain regions well into our lifetimes belongs to another book. For all Lyons's wonder and admiration, the falasifa were always out of the mainstream of Muslim thought; they are best understood as a sort of sect, like the Shia, and were just as vulnerable to charges of heresy. The only small blemish in this fine book is that Lyons has printed a beautiful page of al-Biruni's Arabic treatise on mathematics back to front, so the text can only be read in a mirror.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2009/feb/28/house-of-wisdom-review


Ward

You say: "I thought I was pretty clear. Yuuu....hoooooo. A least my thoughts are my own , and not formulaic cut and paste propaganda."

Answer: You're spinning now and projecting. You're the one using propaganda. What Jonathan Lyons writes can be challenged and should be challenged, but if you want to do more than emptying your shallow mind into the commons, you will have to take a closer look at the reasoning behind Lyons' conclusion. The facts and reasoning behind is not propaganda you know. It's knowledge and can be tested against sources - if you want to.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 18, 2013 - 02:11am PT



BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:36am PT
, we need scientifically literate voters and taxpayers for the future. We need people that can, we need engineers that can build stuff, solve problems

Man has lasted how many millions of years without science?

Lets see how long man lasts with it!

The only problems were dealing with are those of the ego,lust, and greed of science.

(M.J Sanderson describing Supertonian Scientism)
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:56am PT
Why does Christianity hate me so much?

This morning I was sitting in my front step & saw some of the lords people canvasing my street. There was 3 of them & they split formation upon reaching end of the culdesac and proceeded to knock on my neighbors doors. None were home so they moved on to the next houses. I thought about the possible conversation that would ensue & immediately thought about this thread, i put my head down & started working on my todo list again, anticipating the imminent footsteps that would soon approach. Then they walked right by my place & on to my other neighbors! I feel so shunned!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:56am PT
NO! It's through the actions from The WORD! - WORD?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 21, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 22, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
America was founded on Biblical principles and it's the primary reason our nation was blessed and has done so well through our short history and is a World power. Turn your back on G-d and see what happens ...


The Faith of our Fathers ...




Return to HaShem America.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 22, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Malemute,


Matthew 22:29 (KJV)
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."


Ye do err.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 22, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Malemute,

As I said ...


Matthew 22:29 (KJV)
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."


Ye do err.


You don't know Hebrew. A day can be a portion of a day, 12 hours, 24 hours, 100s of years, 1000 years, a million, billions of years, and even no more time, such as the 8th day of creation talked about in 2 Enoch, eternity, no more time. How can "a day" be equal to eternity, no more time? You need to know Hebrew.

Also you don't know "The Gap Theory." HaShem rebooted creation after a judgement against Lucifer, Satan, and the fall of 33% of the Angels.


why aren't you a Raelian?


Because it is an apostasy, a lie of Satan to pull people away from HaShem, the G-d of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac, who is the one true G-d, HaShem Adonai Elohim, and his triune nature.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 22, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
It's hard to hate what you never loved.....disrespect would be more accurate.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 22, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
Bruce,


How and why has Israel survived all odds surrounded by enemies on all sides (nearly) of her that want to wipe her off the face of the Earth? The miracle of 1948. The miracle of 1967. You're gonna see a lot more miracles with Israel.

Because Israel is "the Apple of HaShem's Eye." He loves her and protects her. He rebuked her, but he brought her back according to his prophecy. His word will be fulfilled. Every last Yod, the smallest letter of the Hebrew Alefbet.

HaShem has blessed this nation founded on Biblical principles, his Torah. Also he has blessed her as she protects and helps Israel. Turn your back on Israel and watch judgement come.

Did you know that Hebrew nearly became our nations official language when the Pilgrims landed and returned to and honored HaShem?


The biggest reason we are blessed (besides our foundation of faith and Biblical principles) ... The Abrahamic Covenant.

What is the Abrahamic Covenant?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Abrahamic-covenant.html




Every nation or Kingdom that has mistreated or persecuted The Jews, HaShem's Chosen people (to bring his Torah, The Bible, his word to the World, his plan of salvation, the birth of Yeshua HaMashiach to the World and more ...) has lost their power or lost their nation. Yet the Jews remain. Israel is reborn. Think about it: Egypt, The Greeks, Babylon, Persia, Rome, Germany, and the list goes on. They came against the Jews and persecuted them and they lost their power, every single one of them. The same will happen to the USA if we turn our backs on Israel, our Allie, and The Apple of HaShem's Eye. And why not? They have carried the water for G-d's plan for salvation to the World for 1000s of years. HaShem loves them greatly. And we should too. And HaShem blesses us for doing so. The Abrahamic Covenant.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 22, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
Bruce,

You probably don't have the time but if you are interested ...

6 or more DVDs on the modern miracle of Israel. History, footage, interviews and analysis of what has happened since 1948 until now. A Jewish friend of mine loaned this set to me and I watched all of them. Narrated and done by a well known Jewish Journalist. I was blown away. The eye-witness stories told and shared are incredible. HaShem has his hand on Israel no doubt.


Against All Odds: Israel Survives
http://www.amazon.com/Against-All-Odds-Israel-Survives/dp/B005L24HY2/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G&coliid=I7IEKQGWZM5HT


I can't say it any better ...
37 of 39 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Entertaining, Amazing Stories, and Enlightening June 27, 2009
By Kenneth J. Villwock
Format:DVD

God is not dead. Miracles are happening all around us. God does not do miracles without a purpose. This video shows miracles God used in the establishment and continuing existence of the nation of Israel.

It is a warning to those who fight against Israel or cease supporting Israel, that they are fighting God or turning their backs on God. That may not be too smart.

It is also an encouragement to those who study the Bible to see God using supernatural intervention to accomplish His prophecy for the future of Israel and the world.

I strongly encourage families, small groups, synagogues, churches, and even skeptics to watch this film.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 22, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
Bruce,


There are people in our government who know the Abrahamic Covenant, men and women of faith, and will not turn their back on Israel and we indeed send money to Israel as we should.

You don't understand the Supernatural blessings we receive from HaShem when we do so. Yes, HaShem works through people. It's his preferred method to do so.

Money is a tool. It can do many wonderful things for people when spent correctly for just causes.



The biggest reason we are blessed (besides our foundation of faith and Biblical principles) ... The Abrahamic Covenant.

What is the Abrahamic Covenant?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Abrahamic-covenant.html
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 22, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
^^^ doesn't seem like enough! Considering we have so much to waste.

But the question remains, how much money do Americans gamble (losses and wins combined)? Consider that the majority of money taken by casinos comes from slot machines. An average for payout on slots is 90 cents on every dollar (or 90 percent return).7 If casino revenues ($91 billion) are considered representative of the gambling trade’s gross revenue (about 10 percent of all money wagered), then we can estimate that Americans likely spent close to $910 billion total on all forms of gambling in 2006. Not all forms of gambling return 90 percent, but we can use this for a ballpark estimate. (Consider what Americans spent on some durable and consumable products by comparing the top five Fortune 500 Companies’ revenue for 2006:

That s only one years worth!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 23, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
Anyone that believes they can convince someone to change their set mind is really not much more than a fool...

This thread amazes me to no end how each "Side" tries to CONVINCE the other...

LOL!!!...

GOOD FUKING LUCK!!!..

Talk about a WASTE of time...

LOL !!!

Can I quote you on that?

Oh, I just did.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 23, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Anyone that believes they can convince someone to change their set mind is really not much more than a fool...

This thread amazes me to no end how each "Side" tries to CONVINCE the other...


Locker for the win.

trying to convince to change their mind?

maybe so, but isn't all conversation really mostly about just wanting to hear yourself talk,
to hear yourself use logic and reason?

after all, isn't life all about ME?

"Life is 90% preparing for.....what never happens anyway"
John
8;22;50
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
Sep 22, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
So klimmer can give me the grade 5 explanation that a day can be any unit of time but is silent why it took 3 units of time to create the earth, and only 1 unit of time to create 3000 billion galaxies?
Quelle Surprise!


Once again Malemut, you do err.

Each letter in Hebrew has many deep meanings. Also each word in Hebrew has many meanings. You have to understand context. Some details are glossed over, some details are drawn out. Again, the Hebrew word for day can represent many different periods of time, and even eternity, no more time.

You are getting all messed up.

Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 are separated by a Gap of time. A long gap of time. The period where the angels had free access to all creation, long before man ever showed up. The Gap Theory. HaShem created the Heavens and the Earth. The angels witnessed creation from the beginning. He spread the Heavens out like a tent, as the Good Book says. Note that throughout the Good Book, it always says Heaven first and then the Earth when it talks about creation. This was the first creation. Call it the Big Bang. The point of singularity. The Heavens are created, and then the Earth much later. Like we understand it in science today. The Bible knew this long before modern science. No problem with 14.8B years for the creation of the Universe from the point of singularity until now. No problem at all.

Then something happened. Lucifer fell and took 33% of the Angels with him. This had an effect on the Universe, at least on our corner of the Universe, our Solar System. HaShem reboots Earth after bringing a swift and sudden judgement and destruction. It wasn't a complete destruction. This occurred long before man was ever on the face of Earth. More than likely this happened in a period of time that science has discovered that we call The Late Bombardment period of time. All the planets were hit by asteroids again and again during this time period long after the accretion of the planets. How come?

If you don't know HaShem uses asteroids and comets for judgement then you don't know the Good Book very well. Many occurrences in the bible of HaShem using asteroids as judgement.

Again, the Good Book knew of and talks about Asteroids/Comets and impacts and their effects long before modern science ever figured out the science of impact cratering and meteoritics.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
The Gap Theory explained again ...


Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
Somehow I didn't hear about this until just yesterday. I was re-reading an article of David Flynn's on his website and then finally I ran into a memorial on-line for him. I can't believe it. He left Earth over a year ago to return to Yeshua and I didn't even know it. I'm just really sad. I will miss you David, my brother in Adonai. We never met but you taught me a great deal.

Sad :_(


Mark Flynn, David's twin brother talks about David Flynn and what he meant to him:
http://watchervault.com/david-flynn-bio/mark-flynn-on-david-flynn/

David Flynn's original website is still up:
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/

The David Flynn Collection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF9JTQTTzSw

[Click to View YouTube Video]



I have both of his books:

Cydonia: The Secret Chronicles of Mars
This original book is now out of print. I paid a good amount of $ for my used copy. When I received it, I found to my amazement it was signed by David Flynn to someone else. I feel very fortunate to have it.

This book woke me up to "The Watchers," the Fallen Angels, that descended onto Mt. Hermon in Israel, which then led me to reading the Book of Enoch. I now know Lucifer and his fallen angels (his minions) had access to "The Stones of Fire," the terrestrial planets before the fall. I'm sure in time there will be much physical evidence to this effect out there when we get there. I think we have found it already on the Moon if not on Mars already, but then that's "Forbidden Secret Knowledge" isn't it? Thank you David for helping me to understand this truth.


Temple at the Center of Time: Newton's Bible Code Deciphered and the year 2012

An amazing book. Yes its about the Temple of G-d that was destroyed in 70AD and is prophesied to be rebuilt soon. Check out The Temple Institute in Israel: http://www.templeinstitute.org/temple_mount.htm

... they're getting more and more ready every day. And yes, Sir Isaac Newton was into Bible Code. Very much so. Yet he didn't find what he was looking for. He also studied and searched the physical dimensions and form of the Temple of G-d believing it had a code too. Well, David Flynn has worked it out. Both codes have now been worked out. See Micheael Drosnin's books on Bible Code for the other.
http://www.thebiblecode.com/?p=1



The following is a very advanced Theological study. Many won't accept this truth. But here it is anyway ... and thank you David Flynn for showing it to me. And no I don't teach this "Forbidden Secret Knowledge" in public school. But I sure think about these things on my own time. I'm willing to look into these very hard topics. Are you?:


The Angels were created before the Heavens and the Earth. They witnessed Creation over 14.8 B years ago ...

Job.38:1-7 (KJV)
[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
[2] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
[3] Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
[4] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
[5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
http://www.billygraham.org/articlepage.asp?articleid=4091


Lucifer's fall and taking 33% of the Angels with him. These are now fallen angels ...

Revelation 12:4, 7-9 (KJV)
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



After Lucifer's fall, we learn a great deal from looking behind the curtain where G-d reveals much, when HaShem allowed Satan to test Job as a reproof to Satan. And no matter how hard Satan tried, he couldn't get Job to turn against Adonai ...

Job 1:6-12 (KJV)
[6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
[7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
[8] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[12] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.




Before Lucifer's fall from G-d. Note he had access to walk up and down in the midst, or among, the Stones of Fire, made of igneous rock; in other words, the terrestrial planetary bodies. After his fall he now only has access to planet Earth, (see above) and the ability to approach G-d in Heaven to accuse mankind and the Saints of G-d before HaShem.

Ezekial 28:13-16 (KJV)
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.


God brings destruction and judgement upon the escaping serpent Satan, and destroys, cuts to pieces, shatters, Rahab. Many suggest this was a 5th planet where Satan and many Angels often occupied. This now forms the Asteroid Belt. From this destruction we have the Late Bombardment period of time throughout our Solar System, bringing cosmic judgement onto the planets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Heavy_Bombardment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/earth/earth_timeline/late_heavy_bombardment
http://www.universetoday.com/92375/new-research-casts-doubt-on-the-late-heavy-bombardment/


Job 26:11-13 (NIV)
11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. 12 By his power he churned up the sea; by his wisdom he cut Rahab to pieces. 13 By his breath the skies became fair; his hand pierced the gliding serpent.

Psalm 89:8-11 (KJV)
[8] O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
[9] Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
[10] Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
[11] The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.


Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Christ, witnessed Lucifer fall from heaven to Earth ...

Luke 10:16-24 (KJV)
[16] He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
[19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[20] Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
[21] In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
[22] All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
[23] And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
[24] For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


There was an Angelic Age long before man was ever on Earth. They had cities. Then Lucifer's fall happened. Then severe and swift judgement from G-d. G-d wipes all life (again) and civilizations from Earth, cleaning the slate, without completely destroying Earth. G-d reboots life on Earth (again) bringing about modern man, Homo sapien, made in the image of HaShem, ...


Jeremiah 4:23-27 (KJV)
[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.


Note how Jeremiah 4:23-27 parallels Genesis 1:2, and fits between Genesis 1:1, and Genesis 1:2. This is the Gap Theory. There is a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Jeremiah 4:23-27, along with other scriptures noted, fills in the gap. This was the time of Angels among "The Stones of Fire," and Lucifer's fall from G-d, leading to swift and severe judgement from G-d, destroying much of the surface of the terrestrial planets and destroying Rahab.


Gen.1:1-2 (KJV)
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Then G-d rebooted life again bringing about modern man.



Then we have Fallen Angels coming to Earth, about 200 of them the first time, mating with beautiful Women of Earth and having offspring called Nephilim. The Nephilim were the worst of both. They were half Fallen Angel and half Fallen Man. To see how bad this combination was, it was an abomination to G-d, read The Book of Enoch (1 Enoch). This is were we get the Greek Myths. There is some truth to the Greek Myths. Many of the characters are Nephilim.


http://www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/genesis/6.html

Genesis 6:1-9 (The Complete Jewish Bible)
1 In time, when men began to multiply on earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 ADONAI said, "My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, for they too are flesh; therefore their life span is to be 120 years." 4 The N'filim were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the ancient heroes, men of renown. 5 ADONAI saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only. 6 ADONAI regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. 7 ADONAI said, "I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them." 8 But Noach found grace in the sight of ADONAI. 9 Here is the history of Noach.


Jude.1:1-25 (KJV)
[1] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
[2] Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
[3] Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
[4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
[5] I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
[6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
[7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
[8] Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
[9] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
[10] But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
[11] Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
[13] Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
[16] These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
[17] But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
[18] How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
[19] These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
[20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
[21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[22] And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
[24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
[25] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_Jude



Some good reads on this:

The Book of Enoch (1Enoch)

All of David Flynn's books and articles ...

This forum discussion ...
http://www.christianforums.net/archive/index.php/t-4754.html?s=ebddf0960cb9174527a11e901634a705

The Science of God, by PhD Gerald Schroeder:
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/About.aspx

Rightly-Dividing Geology and the Book of Genesis Beyond the "Gap Theory" of Creationism:
http://www.kjvbible.org/




The way I see it, The Book of Nature and The Book of G-d are in perfect agreement.




Anyway, I just want to remember a gentle, loving, intelligent, even genius of a man of HaShem. I'm eternally grateful for your insights David. I will always tip my hat to you. Thank you. You were way ahead of so many others and you weren't scared to step-out of the box.

Rest in HaShem Adonai Elohim's Shalom, my brother. I will one day see you on the other side with Yeshua HaMashaich, and the saints, the people of G-d, and the Heavenly Hosts of G-d.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

genesis: earth before stars


You do err. You have ignored the creation before the judgement. Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. The Heavens and the Earth. The Heavens first and then the Earth.

You're confusing the reboot of Earth, with the original creation. They are not the same. Creation of the Universe and then the Earth all happened first. Then the fall of Lucifer. Then swift judgement. Then the reboot of Earth. Then eventually at the end of that reboot the creation of modern man, Homo sapien in G-d's image.
Pepe Le Poseur

Social climber
Parts North
Sep 23, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
Klimmer - In my book, you have a compelling story if Hashem is not a distinct "conscious intelligence" but rather an incarnation of a "Grand Unified Theory"

Otherwise, you just have the story of a common ass-clown.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Klimmer,

Just come out of the closet and exclaim your self a Jew.

What are you afraid of, male pattern hair loss ?


Lol.

And I have a great head of hair thanks to my mom. No baldness. (Don't be a hater. Lol.)

I am of Jewish decent. I have admitted that. I have about 5% Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry, with more admixture Jewish ancestry. I had my DNA tested. I know my maternal haplotype and my paternal haplotype, which goes back 1000s of years.

I am 100% European: UK England, Irish, Netherlands, and Germany mostly.

I'm also 2.6% Neanderthal. (Everyone is 0 to 4%)

Everyone should have their DNA tested. Very cool, as long as its not misused.



Everyone should be grateful to the Jews. G-d chose them to bring his salvation plan to the World. They have been carrying the water for G-d for 1000s of years. We owe them a great deal of gratitude. They brought us G-d's word, his Torah, his way of worship, his guidance and instruction for life, our Messiah, and Salvation for all the World. It's not just for one people but for everyone, all Nations. And yet they have been the most persecuted people on the face of the Earth. Why? Lucifer hates the Jews, and Lucifer hates believers in Yeshua HaMashiach. He hates the truth. Yet they are still here even long after all Nations that have persecuted them have lost their power or have disappeared altogether. That is the Abrahamic covenant in action.



Yeshua said, "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first."

This is in reference to Israel. Very very deep.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
the heavens are not the stars

genesis:1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

genesis:1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

are you denying the first chapter of genesis?




Maalemut,


You do err and in a serious bad way.

I gave you my best explanation above when I talk about remembering the late David Flynn. It's there. It explains Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. There is a big Gap of time between both verses and what does that really mean.

You are confusing the original creation 14.8B years ago, with the scriptures that talk in detail about the rebooting of Earth.


Remember, HaShem has many names in the Good Book, including "The Ancient of Days."



Edit:

Yes, the Hebrew word for Heaven includes everything in it including stars. You have 3 Heavens discussed in the Good Book: the atmosphere above us, the Universe/space and everything in it, and the Heaven where G-d abodes. Context.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
Sep 23, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
It sure sounds like you are saying that genesis chapter 1 is wrong or incomplete.
You can tapdance all you want and come up with feeble explanations, but either genesis 1 is correct or it is not. It says the stars were made after the earth. It says that the stars were made in one "day". The account was written without benefit of any advanced scientific knowledge.


Malemut,

This argument with you is like a dog chasing its very small tail. You aren't gonna get it unless you really really want to, and I don't think you do.

Its not wrong and its not incomplete. You have to differentiate between the the original creation, the fall of Lucifer and 33% of the angels, and the reboot of Earth.

It was originally written in Hebrew. You have to understand it in Hebrew. Remember, that Hebrew words can have many meanings. Context. Also PaRDeS. Hebrew words sometimes translated into English lose the deeper meaning or context. That's why its important to go back to the original Hebrew and look it up.



The Science of God, by PhD Gerald Schroeder:
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/About.aspx

Rightly-Dividing Geology and the Book of Genesis Beyond the "Gap Theory" of Creationism:
http://www.kjvbible.org/

PaRDeS (Jewish exegesis)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_%28Jewish_exegesis%29



Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 23, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
It is comforting to know that one can simply reboot earth

Read The Silmarillion by Tolkien. It explains all of the various incarnations of Earth in great detail.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
Earth has been rebooted many times. Look at the geological history of planet Earth ...


History Channel: How the Earth was Made
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLMeA3M_PaU

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Jeremiah 4:23-27 (KJV)
[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

The cities were not of men but of angels.

Note how Jeremiah 4:23-27 parallels Genesis 1:2, and fits between Genesis 1:1, and Genesis 1:2. This is the Gap Theory. There is a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Jeremiah 4:23-27, along with other scriptures noted, fills in the gap. This was the time of Angels among "The Stones of Fire," and Lucifer's fall from G-d, leading to swift and severe judgement from G-d, destroying much of the surface of the terrestrial planets and destroying Rahab.


Gen.1:1-2 (KJV)
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Then G-d rebooted life again bringing about modern man.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 23, 2013 - 11:18pm PT




Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC

Sep 23, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
It is comforting to know that one can simply reboot earth

You try to be so smart with ur words, but where is your brain?
Every morning you wake up the earth is re-created. Can't you see that?
Every thing is decomposing every day!
Every day that handle on ur drawer is lower. Even if you don't see it.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 23, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
You know what they say, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink."




Klimmer

Mountain climber
Sep 23, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
Sep 23, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
And you take offense at being unable to force him to drink?



Do you really think the Horse to water saying means that? Really?

No one's forcing anyone. Just providing answers and they really aren't interested.

So be it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 23, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
^^^ I agree
Looking at climbers all aggressive in methods, and being in physical shape an all.
You'd think they'd have something together...
But when you hear what they've got to say...
Most climbers are a Façade!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 24, 2013 - 12:07am PT
Good one Bruce¡

Ur like a infomercial between Commercials

The utubes have so much more meaning than what you actually say.

But keep on pretending to understand America, "Ay".
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 24, 2013 - 12:07am PT
Well the stick figure cartoon sold me; where can I get a bible with such easy to understand lessons and illustrations?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 4, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
http://www.dhakatribune.com/south-asia/2013/oct/04/woman-stoned-death-pakistan-possessing-cell-phone

I find stoning a woman to death for owning a cell phone "offensive," who do I call?

Were it not for globalization and the internet, umpteen millions less would hear about let alone reflect on and take action against these maintained (and you know by what institution) traditional barbarisms.

.....

Imagine how many stonings there would be if Christians actually followed the bible.

.....

Clarence Darrow...
Crime: Its Cause and Treatment

A great read. The man was before his time.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 7, 2013 - 01:12am PT
HFCS - Imagine how many stonings there would be if Christians actually followed the bible.
What an ignorant statement. Christians follow Jesus Christ (duh). What did JC have to say about stoning? "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." He then bent down and started writing on the dirt. The crowd slowly dispersed until there was no one left but the woman accused of adultery. I believe that he was writing the 10 commandments and the crowd slowly dispersed as they were convicted of their sin[s]. It says the oldest left first. Obviously, since they had more time and had broken more of the commandments as they aged. JC, the Messiah spoken of in the OT, brought a new covenant for not only the Hebrews, but for all mankind. I would suggest that you read the OT from beginning to end, from Genesis to Zachariah, before you start making judgement on Gods dealing with the Israelite's. The whole point was/is, mankind is incapable of following the ten commandments, JC made that very clear. The Apostle Stephen, the first to be martyred (11 of the 12 were martyrs) was stoned to death. Paul was stoned and left for dead several times (was eventually decapitated for his faith). We (X'ians) are expected to do the same, if that is our case/choice (denial or death). I would be honored, should it come to that. So bring out the stones all you haters of Christ!

BTW, regarding some of the comments on this thread about JC and the four gospels (what He taught) and how we should stick with that. He spoke twice as much about hell as He did about heaven in those four gospels. ...just sayin.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 7, 2013 - 10:50am PT
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 7, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Norton - ..control their followers through FEAR
FEAR?

I have no fear! I certainly don't fear death, nor do I fear HELL. My destiny is sealed. "Fear not, for I am with you always." What is there, for me (or any Christian), to fear?

It is out of love that we warn you of hell. Let me put it this way; hypothetically speaking (just for your convenience) what IF it is true, and we (X'ians) new for certain, and we didn't warn you? Just shrugged it off for whatever reason. What would that say about us? And furthermore, on Judgement Day, if we had to look at your face, look into your eyes. What would you say to me? Not sure if that will happen, but I do know that I will be looking into my Lord & Saviors eyes. I know what He would say. And it certainly wouldn't be, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

We are called to share the gospel, whatever the cost...for some it's death. I have personally witnessed to thousands of people, mainly on the streets. Usually it was someone that needed some kind of help, food, support, or whatever. I never preached to them, didn't say a thing. It was probably obvious who I was because I always wore a hat that said, "Jesus Lives." I could easily write a whole book just about those five years I spent on the streets. If there was any conversation that came up about God, it was them who initiated it. If your called to reach out to the lost, if you spend hours on your knees praying and pleading for those you have met, along with those you have known for a while and have a great burden for, and for Him to lead you to more lost souls, believe me, He takes care of the rest.

There are those who approach you and have only hate (for Christ) in their heart. You wear a hat that says, 'Jesus Lives', and your gonna get plenty of static. I simply just moved on. There is plenty of static here. Some of us have just moved on. But there is also some kind of bond, something that ties us all together. I suppose we all feel it in some way or another. For us X'ians, it goes much deeper. That is the bottom line. It may not seem like it at times (i have said many stupid, etc, things) we are only human...we ef up like everyone else. But I know one thing, He loves you very much, no matter what you do or have done. So why shouldn't I/we? Sometimes its not so easy, but we have to keep our eyes on Him, not ourself.

Listen, all we have is our testimony, and the scriptures to share with you. I have known Christ since I was 8 years old. It is a personal relationship. It's simple. He is knocking on the door of your heart. All you have to say is, "Come in." I could write a book about all the things He personally did the first ten years of my life. And another 2-3 books for the next 45 years of my life. But so what. Find out for yourself if He is real or not. If you do, with a sincere heart, you will know for sure. You would be a fool not to. Just be honest with Him. He grieves for you like a mother grieves for her lost child, only much, much more. His love is intense for the lost, no matter who they are. What do you think John 3:16 (and other scriptures) is proclaiming. Sad to say, but ultimately, there are only two places to exist in eternity, its your choice.

I am sorry that you had some very bad experiences with the catholic church as a youth, Norton. I did likewise. I told the story on one of these threads about when I was 7 years old and my mother and aunt, etc, took my 1 1/2 year old brother and I to be baptized at the catholic church. The priest went on with the ceremony with glee in his eyes as he baptized my brother. When he finished, my aunt said, what about John (me). The priest looked at me with disgust and said, "No, its to late. He's to old." That was it. How do you think I felt? I had just listened to my aunt discuss with my mother and father (we were visiting them) how important it was for us to get baptized.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
blasphemy
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 7, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
splitter,
What an ignorant statement...

If you think you're in any position to post about ignorant statements, then we'll have to chalk it up once again to the o' so familiar Abrahamic arrogance in fundamentalist Christian form, I guess.

splitter, grow up for chrisakes. Our grandparents had an excuse: they were born in the 20th century, just a couple decades removed from the cowboy and indian age and Morse code. By and large, they also didn't have much access to science: Physics and chemistry? what's that? A spleen? DNA? what are those? But you... you're an embarrassment! In my book, you don't have any excuse. Don't you read? Don't you believe in adult learning? Crack some friggin books, enroll in a community college, take some science, whatever. We know you have access to a computer and the internet. Take advantage of it. Do what it takes. Upgrade your bronze-age beliefs. Like I said, you're an embarrassment.

Today's educated teens are laughing at you.

Splitter, your brethren by a different mother...

Syrian fighter is dying and they're asking him if he can see virgins! Seriously!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivD92uoBLik

This is the 21st century. All Abrahamic supernaturalists everywhere need to grow up. In the interest of future generations.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 7, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
"The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers."

Karl Marx

100+ million dead.

Hard record to beat.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 7, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
Splitter, Thank you so much for your deep insight into the soul.
I feel the same way about everything you said. And I thank our Heavenly Father Jesus Christ.
Honesty must be Jesus's middle name.

Norton, I hope ur listening. Catholicism is a tough way to get to know Jesus. Jus because you didn't find Him there doesn't mean He wasn't standing next to you the whole time. Maybe for you that's not the avenue to heaven.

Fruity? Ur to far gone..
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 7, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
HFCS - ...todays educated teens are laughing at you.
LOL.

I have well over 200 undergrad and postgrad units at the university level. I have a degree in Occupational Therapy which requires an MS degree. The vast majority of my studies were in science. Your simply blind, spiritually blind. Furthermore, your driven by a spirit of hate. If there are no X'ians to attack, you turn on your fellow compadres to demean, lambaste and ridicule. For the past 4-5 years you have posted on only the "religious" threads, spewing the same crap over and over. Your full of yourself. You have inflated self esteem, and I suspect you have delusions of rising to some authoritarian position. You have an obsession with dominance and control. You speak of my parents/grandparents, I have my suspicions of how your upbringing went. Your a scary person, a troubled man and you don't have a clue. If you treat your family, friends and associates like you treat everyone here, you are going to find yourself a very lonely man some day, I suspect. You do have attributes that are admirable, but your arrogance and pompous attitude etc, belies them.

My assessment of you, regarding your "ignorance" regarding Christians, is dead on. You know nothing of Christians, what they have done and are doing in the world, particularly the third world countries; digging wells, building homes, providing healthcare/medical services, education and hope with no strings attached. It's all about love. Your driven by hate.

this vid, when i first saw it months ago (sorry to say) reminded me of you. or how you could become if the climate and conditions were just right. and they are headed in that direction. your hate for Christians parallels, in many ways, the nazis hate for Jews, Gypsy's, gays, communist, disabled & Christians that wouldn't submit/hid Jews, etc...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
kind of harsh assessment, and i sincerely hope i'm wrong. but i do believe there is still hope for you. your gifted, but misdirected.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 7, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
Congrats Norton!
What if I told you I went to The Jimmie Swaggart University for 8yrs and passed with straight A's? Would that make me smarter then you about the bible? Besides being a lie. My point being, anyone can read the bible like a dictionary. And you may know an apple by its definition. But you'll never KNOW an apple until you taste it. I can tell you've NEVER tasted the blood of Jesus. Even though you may know of it... Sincerely, the ONLY thing I want to get across to you is that you missed the mark, and there's sOO much more then what you have expressed of ur experience. THROW AWAY YOUR RELIGION. AND SEEK GRACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 7, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
Wow. A number of the christians posting in this thread are showing their asses in a big way. Splitter and Blueblocker, your posts on the last few pages answer the question that is the subject of this thread.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 8, 2013 - 12:06am PT
Norton
How do those words taste comin out of your mouth?
How does if feel to keep on denying The Lord with all the information you hold about Him?
I'd jus like to know. How does this affect your ego?
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 8, 2013 - 12:08am PT
ncrockclimber - ...your posts on the last few pages answer the question that is the subject of this thread.
.

We simply say what JC said. Read the Gospels, I suspect you haven't. If you already had, you would know that.

As several on this thread have already shared:

"If the world hates you, know that it hated me first." John 15:18

THAT is the answer to the OP's title/question for this thread. Get a clue.

edit: btw, Christians on this site never start any of these threads. you probably wouldn't here a damn thing from us if it wasn't for the proliferation of hate threads that are continually popping up. sheesh
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 8, 2013 - 12:09am PT
Ncrock,
Thanks for ur opinion. Mind to elaborate?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 8, 2013 - 11:31am PT
Zeus's wife could have taken any other god's woman to the cleaners
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 8, 2013 - 12:11pm PT

The one true God

Well yea of course there is only ONE God!

His response to us has everything to do with what name we call Him.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 8, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
What would his response be if we called him Shirley?

I'm not sure. But there's this old guy in Rome who's taken to wearing a dress and calling himself Francis. He claims to know a fair bit about the whole God business, so you could ask him.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 8, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
blublock must be more annoited than other taco members!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 8, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
The Meaning Of Life
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Oct 9, 2013 - 12:06am PT
So about 5,000 years ago, RA, Baal, Yaweh, and a few other gods were getting together on Thursday nights for some poker. The stakes would get pretty high, those were some crazy times.

So during his day job, Yaweh was working on the genetic engineering project with some subjects down in the area around good old Babylon. He'd been working up this line of good obient workers who were strong and could go all day. But then he lost big to RA and RA took over the project. Sent the main group of test subjects down to Egypt and put them to work. After a few hunded years they bred up a nice work force.

Yaweh then had a turn of luck. RA had three of a kind and thought he had the high hand but Yaweh laid down a full house and took the pot and got his project back.

Baal was this super nice guy who was friendly to farmers so everyone kept going to him, including Yaweh's project subjects. That really pissed him off.

IF you ever run into Yaweh, tell him "Spider" is looking for him. I've got a few choice words. I think he took off chasing some skirt about 4000 years ago. Maybe retired to Arcturas or something.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 9, 2013 - 06:07am PT
IF there is god, it is so far removed from most human understanding that the human in its attempt to understand and make sense of it waters it down to a level it can understand-which is what we have now in so called religion.

Attempting to explain the unexplainable in human terms is only fantasy hence the bible stories, the Koran, the book of Mormon, etc...


I always liked the idea of "the great unknown".

Christians don't have the patent on silly notions, fantasy, nor on killing, torturing, or waging war.

To paraphrase one of our ST elders...
















































































Stupid humans:-)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 9, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
Francis urged the church to "strip" itself of its worldy attachment to wealth during his Oct. 4 trip to Assisi and focus instead on the basics of Christ's teachings. "You might say, 'Can't we have a more human Christianity, without the cross, without Jesus, without stripping ourselves?'" he asked rhetorically. "In this way we'd become pastry-shop Christians, like a pretty cake and nice sweet things. Pretty, but not true Christians."

This is one of the cruxes: it is the "pastry-shop Christians" that engender the reaction.

"The church isn't an NGO, it's a story of love," Francis told the bank's staff in the pews.

And this is part of the story, as well. When one sees pastry-shop Christians spewing hate for the unfortunate, and making the acquisition of money their primary concern, the hypocrisy is very distateful.
WBraun

climber
Oct 9, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
There is God and he's eternally there.

One can accept.

One can reject.

One can make 1 billion quotes he doesn't exist.

One can make 1 billion quotes he does exist.

None matter.

He'll never ever go away because it's impossible as we are none other than part parcel of him.

There's absolutely no escape ......

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 9, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
I kind of like the non-escapable atomic life force grand server nothing-God of WBraun...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 9, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
A distant relative,
getting himself ready...
[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSEk9QcvHxA

.....

Because it's becoming ever more an embarrassment?

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/michele-bachmann-the-end-times-are-a-comin-2/
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 9, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
This is one of the cruxes: it is the "pastry-shop Christians" that engender the reaction.

So true. I love how you worked the "crux" into your post as well.

John
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 9, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
HFCS

That's no distant relative, that's a close one...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 10, 2013 - 03:16am PT
Got to keep it on topic, John. :)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 10, 2013 - 10:54am PT
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2013 - 11:37am PT
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Only a stupid clueless fool can even "think" something so stupid.

Keep up the the stupid clueless quotes from clueless fools guys since you can't even think for yourselves ......

WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
The sucker bit the hook and got reeled in ..... ^^^^^
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 11, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Says Prabhupada's parrot....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 11, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
Theodosius Dobzhansky
!!!!!

My professor when I got my Master's in Genetics!

Good to see his name!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 11, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
It's pretty clear when it's all laid bare. Isn't it?

Abrahamic supernaturalism - whether Christianity or Islam - won't survive the info age.

Good riddance!

But if not religious supernaturalism, then what? And if not God Jehovah, aka the God of Moses and Abraham, then what? Hmm...
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 11, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
...then what?
the god of this world (aka, the Antichrist).

edit: anyway, if ya had apportioned part of yer, what i can imagine, life long search for understanding, knowledge and wisdom, towards searching the holy scriptures (to either prove or disprove them) you would have, eventually stumbled upon prophecy (from various old & new testament prophets to JC) regarding the Great Falling Away, aka The Apostasy. Which is fairly well underway at the moment. So, point is, yer wishes will come true...before to long. There will be some form of a spiritually dead church masquerading as the real thing, though. way to long of a story to get into here. btw, the very worst thing that could happen to the x'ian church would be for it to become a state church, ala the church in rome, bitd! no worries b'cuz it ain't ever gonna happen. and as far as politics goes, no worries either. they should have never mixed religion & politics to begin with. that was a very small segment of dominionist initially (70's) and they managed to fool and suck in the church at large by camouflaging their true colors, etc! ...carry on.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 11, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
re: good riddance

Don't get me wrong, it had its place in history (in the 11th century, e.g.,; in the lives of our grandmothers, etc.) But this is the 21st century, now.


.....


Splitter, require of yourself, man. Cast off your outdated beliefs. (Exorcise them, lol!) Challenge yourself. Upgrade!
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational treasures at Alexandria

True men of God never destroy treasures.

This shows how stupid and clueless you are.

Anyone doing such acts is none other than a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Keep biting the hook .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 11, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
What choice do we have?

It's a war of ideas and a war of cultures out there.

They used to say the same thing about "astrology." Depends on how one measures, I suppose. Is Latin dead?

Against the odds, against entropy (the Second Law), I nonetheless believe in civilization. ;)

part of me suspects the information age will not out-live

Maybe not. But it's worth a go.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 11, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Through it all, I try to remember that, at bottom, it's NOT people who have us in this life predicament, or these life predicaments, but nature and how it works.

There is some consolation in this.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 11, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
HFCS -Splitter, require of yourself, man .
I like that. It has a ring to it that resonates. And is something we should all do more of, in one way or another, eh? Therefore, good advice, thanks! I will make note of it. :)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 15, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
"If you don't want your tax dollars to help the poor, then stop saying you want a country based upon Christian Values....because you don't"
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 15, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
"If you don't want your tax dollars to help the poor, then stop saying you want a country based upon Christian Values....because you don't"

+1

John
shmikee

Trad climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
Oct 15, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
http://www.jw.org/en
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Oct 24, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
What choice do we have?

It's a war of ideas and a war of cultures out there.

That's because you know you could be wrong about it, OOP's!
WBraun

climber
Oct 24, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
The sun always rises in the east (certainty)

You will die (certainty)

You will be born (certainty)

And nutcase Malemute likes to shrink in fear of certainty ....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 25, 2013 - 09:07am PT
The writing's on the wall...


It's ovah for Jehovah.

The innovations, from a division of the company called Google Ideas, come at a time when the Internet, and social media in particular, is playing an increasing role in popular upheaval around the world, most notably in the Middle East.

“These are going to be useful additions to the activist toolkit,” said Philip Howard,

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/23/21080699-running-battle-how-google-hopes-to-beat-countries-cracking-down-on-internet-freedom?lite

Note "playing an increasing role in popular upheaval around the world."

Like.

The uProxy tool essentially provides a mask for dissidents. They can establish a secure connection with someone across the world, in a free-Internet country, whom they trust, and read and post online without surveillance or blocking.

Like.

.....

ekat,

it's all a part of the process. "Brick by brick." It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it. ;)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Oct 25, 2013 - 09:10am PT
ROTAS
OPERA
TENET
AREPO
SATOR
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 27, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
http://www.dw.de/syrias-christians-flee-rebel-crosshairs/a-17178299
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 30, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
re: "the religion of peace"

Stunning. Self-proclaimed 'moderate' Muslims at Islamic Peace Conference in Norway. Watch what happens...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ZAxkWzIpk&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU

.....

So contrast the aforementioned with the Ben Breedlove story (and video) linked above by Sketch and it's easy to see why the subject (including its superstitions) is so involved and hard if not impossible (for many) to overcome.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 31, 2013 - 08:58am PT
News alert:

Alex Honnold on Joe Rogan... a year or so ago.
Sam Harris on Joe Rogan... yesterday!

http://vimeo.com/78223316

"Civilization is a machine... to get us to peacefully collaborate with strangers."
Sam Harris

"The prefrontal cortex of every brain is a machine... that allows for that collaboration."
Sam Harris

The most sustained, dynamic, thought-provoking and spot-on exchange I've heard in a very long time.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 10, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
re: How religions and the US government let children die

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/10/30/how-religions-and-the-u-s-government-let-children-die/


Remember, though, it was a hundred times worse even one generation (25 years) ago. Times are changing. The world's much more aware today.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Nov 10, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
rSin, so glad I'm not a conservative christian. just a jesus follower here. :) lynne
WBraun

climber
Nov 10, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
In this thread lately you have the soapbox "Preachers" Malemute, Fruity and rSin preaching their religion ......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
was asking the inlaws onces about what jesus had thought important to talk about when he got his largest assemblies together and they all came up blank...

i said surely youve read the gospels; and you wouldnt belive the reply i got... and it was delivered with a snarl

" i dont have to read that book to know whats RIGHT!"


her hand was in her purse and im sure she was fondling her handgun at that point

it was like that old moving when boggie as the navy captain goes off the deep end

cept it wasnt just said
more it was truely frightening


anyone today who self identifies in public as being a christian is decidely NOT a follower of christs example

he or she is just a market driven consumer whos found a place which caters to the bigotries and hatred that SOOTHE their worest character traits


This charicterization, while true is some or even many cases, is sorter like saying all scientists are duffuses with fifty pens in their pockets, walk slightly pidgeon-toed, couldn't get laid with a gold brick in their hand, can't whistle or dance, and wouldn't know culture if it bit them in the wingtips. This applies to many science types, aftger a fashion, but it is no more "true" than your silly portrayal of Christians. You might be surprised by the acumen of some church goers. Theologians, at the top level, are very capible people and excellent schollars, no more succesible to believing foolishness than you or I.

But that muich said, any Christian who doesn't know the Beatitudes is in the dark. It's their loss IMO.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
Neil deGrasse Tyson...
[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBTd9--9VMI

I sure hope it has the substance of the last one, or it's going to disappoint many many.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 16, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
By Amanda Marcotte

The Gospel of Selfishness in American Christianity

How the philosophers of selfishness came to use Christianity as their cover story.




November 14, 2013 | Like this article?Join our email list:Stay up to date with the latest headlines via email.
Anyone who has worked in the restaurant business will be happy to tell you that waiters always fight each other to avoid working Sunday lunch shift. Not because they want to sleep in, but because it’s a widespread belief that the post-church crowd is loud, demanding and unwilling to tip appropriately. In the food service industry, “Christian” is synonymous with “selfish.”

Unfair stereotype? Probably. Big groups, regardless of affiliation, tend to tip poorly. More to the point, waiters probably remember the bad Christian tippers more because the hypocrisy is so stunning. The image of a man piously preening about what a good Christian he is in church only to turn around and refuse the basic act of decency that is paying someone what you owe them perfectly symbolizes a lurking suspicion in American culture that the harder someone thumps the Bible, the more selfish and downright sadistic a person he is. And that perception—that showy piety generally goes hand in hand with very un-Christ-like behavior—is not an urban myth at all. On the contrary, it’s the daily reality of American culture and politics.

Bill Maher recently had a rant on his show that went viral addressing this very issue, bad tippers who leave sermons or notes scolding waiters instead of paying them what they’re owed. His larger point is a much more important one: It’s absolutely disgusting how the politicians who make the biggest show of how much they love Jesus would be the first in line to bash him if he returned with a message of clothing the naked and feeding the poor. The Jesus of the Bible multiplied the loaves and fishes. His loudest followers these day gripe about feeding people, claiming it creates a “culture of dependency.” They may even comb through the Bible to take quotes out of context to justify their selfishness toward the poor, as Rep. Steven Fincher did when he claimed the Bible says, “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.” The fact that those jobs are unavailable didn’t give him a moment’s pause when suggesting this very un-Christ-like plan to his fellow Americans.

There are plenty of progressive Christians who genuinely try to live out Jesus’ command to love your neighbor as yourself, described in the Bible as the root of Jesus’ entire philosophy. That said, statistics bear out the sense that people who are more invested in being perceived as pious also embrace the most selfish policies. Self-identified conservatives and Republicans claim go to church regularly at twice the rate of self-identified liberals. People who go to church more than once a week are far more conservative than the rest of the population. Indeed, the research suggests how often you report being in the pews is the most reliable indicator of how you’re going to vote. (Though it may not be a reliable indicator of how often you actually go to church. In the grand tradition of showy piety, people who claim to be avid church- goers often lie about it to pollsters.)

The attempts to reconcile the correlation between displays of piety and support for selfish policies get complex on the right, with conservatives often arguing that hating your neighbor at the voting booth doesn’t count because church charities supposedly make up for it. ( They don’t.) In reality, the relationship between Christian piety and support for selfish policies is fairly straightforward. It’s not that being Christian makes you conservative. It’s that being conservative makes being a loud and pious Christian extremely attractive.

Without Christianity, the underlying mean-spiritedness of conservative policies is simply easier to spot. Without religion, you’re stuck making libertarian-style arguments that sound like things cackling movie villains would say, like Ayn Rand saying civilization should reject “the morality of altruism.” Since Christianity teaches altruism and generosity, it provides excellent cover for people who want to be selfish, a sheep’s clothing made of Jesus to cover up the child-starving wolf beneath. Since Christians are “supposed” to be good people, people who really aren’t good are lining up to borrow that reputation to advance their agenda.

The fact that conservatism causes obnoxious Christian piety in American culture is most obvious when looking at some of the theological developments that have accrued since the philosophers of selfishness decided to use Christianity as their cover story. The “prosperity gospel” that has developed in recent years is a classic example.

The prosperity gospel teaches, to be blunt, that you can tell how much God favors you by how rich you are. While some on the Christian right reject this idea as a tad crude, it’s still wildly popular and its adherents, like Oral Roberts, are some of the major architects and organizers for the Christian right. It’s a perfect example of how conservative ideology leads to pious Christianity. People want to believe that the rich are better than everyone else and the poor don’t deserve squat, so they find a way to blame God for it rather than own their own greed and selfishness.

Pope Francis may be entirely sincere when he says he wants Catholic clergy to deemphasize the right-wing political pandering in favor of highlighting values that are more in line with liberalism, such as compassion and generosity to the poor, but the odds are slim of this message making inroads with church leaders in the United States. The church needs conservatives who need to believe they’re good and holy people despite their selfish beliefs. Without them, who will show up and tithe? Liberals? Most of them are sleeping in on Sundays, secure that their commitment to social justice makes them good people regardless of how visibly pious they are.

The fact of the matter is that the purposes religion serves in America are shrinking in number. Our cultural identity is increasingly shaped by pop culture, not faith or ethnic identity. Our holidays are more about shopping and having a chance to catch up with far-flung family these days, not showing devotion to a deity. Spiritual needs are often addressed through modern means like psychotherapy and self-help. People build communities through hobbies and interests more than through faith communities bound by geography, ethnicity and family.

Increasingly, the only thing religion has left to justify itself is that it provides cover for people who want to have bigoted, selfish beliefs but want to believe they are good people anyway. As these social trends continue, we can expect the alignment between public piety and grotesquely selfish political beliefs to get worse, not better

edit:previously posted by rsin on one of them healthcare threads
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Nov 16, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
Wade, thank you.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 16, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
True,

"The fact of the matter is that the purposes religion serves in America are shrinking in number. Our cultural identity is increasingly shaped by pop culture, not faith or ethnic identity. Our holidays are more about shopping and having a chance to catch up with far-flung family these days, not showing devotion to a deity. Spiritual needs are often addressed through modern means like psychotherapy and self-help. People build communities through hobbies and interests more than through faith communities bound by geography, ethnicity and family"

In the world at large, too.

Such radical change underway... sooo unpredictable.

What can you do? Keep your fingers crossed. It's what I do.
Byran

climber
Yosemite
Nov 16, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
The latest cheeseball movie out of hollywood.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Apparently there's a debate over on IMDB about whether the genre should be listed as "fantasy" or "historical"
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 16, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
Well doggies!...Cats, Camels, & Cows etc.!!!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
more bullshit cornboy!

okay, I give!!!!11

I don't know you but your wise words have convinced me, I've seen the errors of my way and I stop going to church and stop being a believer...

immediately!!!!!1
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Turn to God, Jesus saves!!

Open your heart, he will forgive you!!

What's wrong with you?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Jeez they want you to go to church and believe some weird stuff they can't prove. Oh, and yeah, they say that people who don't believe the weird stuff they can't prove will spend eternity consumed in hell fire....whatever that is. Don't sound like nice people to me.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
Turn to God, Jesus saves!!

Now who you jivin' with that cosmic debris?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
No worries, just playing around.

I don't think this rSin guy knows me, kind of funny is all. ;)
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
I feel sad for you guys!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:09am PT
Sunday....whoopee! Where's the tape.....off to the church of the hand jam sepulchre.
WBraun

climber
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:21am PT
Now we have atheist preachers. ^^^

The world is full of fuking stupid people on all sides of the fence .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:44am PT
rSin,
why are you wringing your hands???

rSin, I'm wringing my hands because I fear the Lord. You should too, your time is near.

Oh, and no drinking till at least noon today, mkay?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:01am PT
Bears repeating,

adults should have to prove they graduated 8th grade and are English grammar proficient before being allowed to post on a public internet forum.

I just reviewed about half dozen posts of yours. What a waste of time and energy. You're setting a new low here at ST, loser.
WBraun

climber
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:04am PT
STFU Cornhole

You're an anal idiot.

leave him the fuk alone.

It's you that's the loser ....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:11am PT
Werner,
STFU Cornhole

You're an anal idiot.

leave him the fuk alone.

It's you that's the loser ....

Really? He's your buddy?

Alright, good to know. LOL!


.....

The new new-age problem as Riley pointed out months ago is every body has access to a computer and the internet now, even the poor sac in the corner of the bar mumbling to himself. A f*#king nightmare.
WBraun

climber
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:14am PT
You're anal nitpick stupid aszhole, cornhole.

It's got nothing to do with this guy rSin as I have no clue who he is nor do I care.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:17am PT
Werner,
You're anal nitpick stupid aszhole, cornhole.

Finished, dipsh#t?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:02am PT
christians suck:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/god-called-them-to-adopt-and-adopt-and-adopt.html?ref=todayspaper&pagewanted=all&_r=1&

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:12am PT
James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

...but doesn't include enslavement or taking advantage of them, which is EVIL!
jstan

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpmyTud0Soo

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Nov 20, 2013 - 11:04am PT
From my favorite spoken word artist, Joe Frank.
What is religious scripture but stories written by ancient nomadic sheep herding desert people? People who lived in tents, made war on each other with swords, shields, and clubs, who wrote their laws on stone tablets, and then smashed them. How can we possibly relate to them?

Not one of them ever placed a phone call, complained about a table, misplaced a remote, climbed a stairmaster, waited anxiously for the results of a CT scan. Not one of them was ever humiliated in a bar by a younger man, or ever had his date get out of a car at the end of the evening and say, "Well, that was strange." So how can any one of them understand our world?

Not to mention the childish stories that represent the foundation upon which our entire civilization rests. A burning bush. A virgin birth. A woman created from a rib. A talking serpent. A blind man pulling down the pillars of a great temple killing thousands. A man swallowed by a whale who escapes to tell the story. Another man who lives 900 years and still can't pay off his daughter's wedding. Is that credible?

For more fun on all kinds of subjects go to www.joefrank.com or like him on facebook.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 20, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
they didnt even have soap by the supposed age of christ!!!

Soap's been around at least since 2200 BC or so with the first written formula on a Babylonian clay tablet.
illusiondweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 20, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
why does everyone hate christianity so much?

Free Will

"Every human creation of God has a free will, but something has happened to shape the inclination of that will... both now and FOREVER. "My sheep hear My voice, and know them, and they follow Me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish" (John 10:27,28). As His sheep we are not deprived of free will, yet we are forever inclined to follow our Lord. There is a decisive time in the crossroads of our life when our inclination is established either for or against God. After that,there is no persuasion that can turn us from the path we have chosen. The chilling words of Revelation 22 reflect this principle,affirming "he that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" while yet "the Spirit and the bride say" to all who may yet be persuaded, "Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely" (Revelation 22:11-17). Satan,equipped with his free will,took a terribly wrong turn,as so many have who follow him,at the point when there was no turning back.

Yosemite was indeed amazing,yet was certainly dwarfed by the majesty of the One who formed its landscape. What a Savior! God bless you."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 6, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
thanks for bring up The Man from Earth, Malemute


Cintune mentioned it two days ago and I watched it, interesting premise and plot

Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 22, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
On the December 2004 Asian tsunami: "The Christian-style 'God of love' should be particularly vulnerable to post-tsunami doubts.... If He so loves us ... why couldn't he have held those tectonic plates in place at least until the kids were off the beach? . . . If we are responsible for our actions, as most religions insist, then God should be, too, and I would propose an immediate withdrawal of prayer and other forms of flattery ... at least until an apology is issued."

Praise God for ignorance:

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

"But the natural man (mankind) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

...and people were asking the same questions then:

Luke 23:39-47 KJV

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us (and the children in the tsunami - added). But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man."

Mimi

climber
Dec 22, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
"they didnt even have soap by the supposed age of christ!!!

you think that if the guy was good, he would have at least mentioned it to them..."


Hahahaha! Ricin, please continue.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Dec 22, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
Christians for Cross-Training. I got my mouth washed out with soap.....I switched to Gummy Bears.
Mimi

climber
Dec 22, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
Where is the outrage?
Mimi

climber
Dec 22, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
Wow, that's some advertising. Even for pomegranate.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2013 - 02:14am PT
especially since it is turning out that antioxidants are cancer PROMOTERS
jstan

climber
Dec 23, 2013 - 11:14am PT
One reference:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2492799

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
Locker, STRONG evidence, that seems to be building each day. Nothing that contradicts that is turning up.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Gandhi said it best " I like your Jesus Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ" This will be true till the time Christians stop their hateful ways and truly follow the teachings of Christ.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 23, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
"they didnt [sic] even have soap by the supposed age of christ[sic]!!!

So when Malachi, 400 years before Jesus Christ, wrote "For He is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap" he was prophesying about a future discovery.

And they don't believe in miracles!

John
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 23, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Gandhi said it best " I like your Jesus Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ" This will be true till the time Christians stop their hateful ways and truly follow the teachings of Christ.

Gandhi was lost as well I see...praise God. He wouldn't have liked Paul either who wrote inRomans 7:8, 15-25 KJV:

"But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."


You all seem to be seeking perfection...well, as the song says, "looking for love in all the wrong places" seems to have held some Truth. I'm human, flesh, carnal with an inherent sin nature. If you observe me just for a short time I'm POSITIVE you'll find some hypocrisy in me....and I'm 100% sure that when I die, I'm spending eternity with my Maker. How can that be, and isn't that arrogant of me? God forbid...I'm just convinced through evidence that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 27, 2013 - 12:21am PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 27, 2013 - 12:51am PT
^Philo posting that makes you look stupid. Are you stupid?
thebravecowboy

Social climber
Colorado Plateau
Dec 27, 2013 - 01:02am PT
december two five was cool, no, phil-o?

i ate not meats. i burnt some gas-a-hol to get to me bould'rn place.

you swung some ice tools, kno?
WBraun

climber
Dec 27, 2013 - 11:21am PT
^^^^ Even the greatest atheist that ever existed would call you "Just plain stupid" ...... ^^^^
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 27, 2013 - 11:32am PT
I don't hate christianity per se....it should be a quaint, little belief system. I do hate much of what christianity has come to to stand for....especially in Estados Unidos.
WBraun

climber
Dec 27, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Christian can't ever be corrupted ever.

The minute any dirt falls on Christian immediately becomes not Christian.

Christian is Christian.

Aszhole is never Christian.

Man are you ever stupid ......
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Dec 27, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Christian is Christian.

Aszhole is never Christian.

Best Sermon Ever.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 27, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Where did you get that, Philo? As someone born on June 16, I love it!

John
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Dec 27, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Sorry but Yeshua's birth was foretold and marked in the Heavens above by an incredible 9 month cycle of planetary and star conjunctions, and something very special in the heavens the very day he was born on September 11, 3B.C. ...



Cross-post from Christmas Day:

Merry belated Christmas. About 4 months late ...

Yeshua's birth-date in fulfillment of Prophecy:
September 11, 3 B.C. (The Jewish Rosh Hashanah -- The Jewish New Year). Isn't HaShem amazing? He knows what he's doing. :)


Rev.12 (KJV)
[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


http://www.askelm.com/star/

http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm

http://www.newmanlib.ibri.org/Papers/StarofBethlehem/75starbethlehem.htm







Well, we can still celebrate Yeshua HaMasahiach's (Jesus the Christ, the Messiah) birth, no matter what time of year. Perhaps the Jewish wise-men from Babylon from Daniel's school of thought (a region of exile and diaspora) in the East came to worship him around this time of year. He was a toddler when they came bearing gifts. They knew the prophecies and they were excellent observers of the night sky. They were astronomers.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Werner King of Weird, could you please translate this into English? This Earthling is having difficulty with your planet's dialect.

Hindu as far as I can tell.

But that was about as succinct a description of Christian ethics I've seen..


(surpassing the resident bible thumpers)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 4, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
“Anyone who thinks sitting in church can make you a Christian must also think that sitting in a garage can make you a car.”

  ― Garrison Keillor
bigbird

climber
WA
Feb 4, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
“Anyone who thinks sitting in church can make you a Christian must also think that sitting in a garage can make you a car.”

Thomas De Torquemada felt the same way.... He had thousands burned and many more tortured in an attempt to rid spain of "non-believers" during the early part of the Spanish inquisition...

On to other questions...


why does everyone hate christianity so much?

Historical injustices perpetrated by Christians in Europe tended to be rather brutal and violent. The memory of bloodshed will not die easily.... Its easy to single out Christendom for it part in perpetrating some of the worst acts of savagery in the last two millennia...
WBraun

climber
Feb 6, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
Atheist are the most unintelligent beings period.

They say there is no God yet utter and mention him all the time.

Are attracted naturally to him.

Hypocrites of the highest order.

It is only thru the inconceivable superior powers and all attractive qualities of God himself that atheists remain always mindful of his supreme self.

There is no escape ever for the atheists since God is the ultimate reality.

Atheists are therefore ultimately stupid ......
bigbird

climber
WA
Feb 6, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
WBraun


Its kind of hard to take you seriously when you make characterization of entire groups of people without proving some objective evidence to support your claim....

anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Feb 14, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Feb 14, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Feb 14, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Feb 17, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
sorry, which homophobic posts? you mean the as#@&%e jesus posts up thread?
I didn't think anyone would be offended, seeing as there's quite a bit of nastiness on SuperTopo.
I can delete the offending posts, if you'd like.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 17, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
we are a big rock being hurled through space and just so happens to be close enough to the sun to have water and life, nothing more nothing less.

nice one, Cozgrove
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 17, 2014 - 03:18pm PT

Too late.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 17, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
Werner is right and Anita is wrong. Who do you think is honest with the truth?

I do not need to question anything, I know the truth.

It's funny how atheists try to lure people away from religion. If they truley believed in nothing, can't they just leave us alone?

God is real, and so is evil. They are opposing forces. They fight.

What side are you on?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 17, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
I do not need to question anything, I know the truth.

Isn't that the very definition of a closed mind?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 17, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
If they truley believed in nothing, can't they just leave us alone?

Which Atheists are bothering you Blue? Are they knocking on your door uninvited?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 17, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
It's funny how atheists try to lure people away from religion. If they truley believed in nothing, can't they just leave us alone?


It's funny how born agains try to lure people away from reason. If they truly believed in Creationism can't they just leave us alone?

There fixed it fer ya Bluey.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 17, 2014 - 04:20pm PT
Me too.
I like those two's presence and voice on the Taco.
The QuackerJack Kid however emmmm not so much.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Feb 17, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
anita - I didn't think anyone would be offended...
well, i am certain there is at least one person who was offended about them...jesus! particularly you characterizing him as using slurs ("faggy"). as most X'ians know, that would be sinful (a sin). a particularly evil one (imo) because it harms another person who jesus loves just as much as any X'ian in this world. very sad. furthermore, he gave the man his artistic talents, why would he discourage him for using them to depict another human being that he also loves? there are so many misconceptions about him. hate us X'ians, i can understand that. but you have no clue how much j.c. loves you, no matter what you do, think, or say about him.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 17, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
I like those drawings Anita. I appreciate your voice on the Taco, much as I appreciate sully's voice.

the three L sullly!?!


bluey wrote
It's funny how atheists try to lure people away from religion. If they truley believed in nothing, can't they just leave us alone?

dude if you like going to church then have fun! I wouldn't want to bother you!!!

go-B

climber
John 6:44
Feb 23, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
Too late.

(It should read everyone should repent NOW!)

...not yet Jesus saves! :)
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 23, 2014 - 10:22pm PT
Werner from Feb 6th on previous page:
Atheist[s] are the most unintelligent beings period.

I agree with your post. It is very funny. Active Atheists depend on opposing God as a source of their attention and activity. Thus they are forever subordinated.

dirtbag

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 10:27pm PT
Weird
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
This is a fun thread to get drunk and read.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
People that are delusional are not intelligent.

Ah, Malemute, you're on the wrong track with that. There is no shortage of very intelligent people who are totally bugf*#k crazy.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
^^^What about Clinton or Gore or Bush&Bush
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Feb 26, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 26, 2014 - 07:34pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 27, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
Open Letter to a Fellow Atheist
—Ace

I published this (in rawer form) as a response to Seattle Slough, who is not really a troll, but does come here to disagree.

I don't mind that he disagrees. He does get a bit insulting, but it's the Internet-- what do you expect? I'm going to insult him (a bit) in this post.

Internet rules. What can you do.

But having written a response to him, and needing some content, I've decided to pop this out as a post.

We start with his quote, in my usual effed-up manner of quotation:

>>> Let me ask you:
Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old?
Do you believe in a world-wide flood?
Do you deny the theory of evolution?

If the answer to any of these is "yes" you are a fool. If the answer is "no" you deny the Bible as divine truth.

...

Seattle, being a non-believer myself, I agree with you that these things are not true.

Here is where I depart from you: Calling someone who does believe them a fool.

Was Blaise Pascal a fool? Before you answer, you should look him up on Wikipedia. He was quite brilliant. Incredibly brilliant, actually. Also, a religious Christian zealot (I think he'd agree with that characterization).

Was Isaac Newton a fool? I trust you know enough about him to know he was no fool.

Was William Wilberforce a fool? If you have to Wiki him, do so.

What you are doing is taking your lack of inquisitiveness (which I share) for some explanation as to What It All Means (I don't know that it means much of anything, and I suspect you feel similarly) as your demarcation between "fool" and, I guess, a wise man such as yourself.

There are a lot of brilliant men -- far more brilliant than you could dream -- in history, who not only believed in God (and Jesus), and not only were not "fools," but were in fact smarter than you (or, even myself, ego compels me to say, though it's a somewhat closer call) could ever hope to be.

You are guilty not of atheism (which is not a crime) but the great sin of our age, the great Vanity, that of Tribalism.

You believe that your membership in a tribe makes you superior to others; I think your devotion to a tribe makes you inferior.

You are desperately searching for affirmation of self in trivial proofs. I believe this, I don't believe that; ergo, I'm superior.

You might as well be basing your ego upon your favorite ice cream flavor.

Like you, I am an atheist (or, agnostic/Deist/atheist depending on the day). Like you, I do not believe anything in the Bible, except for some small things like I'm pretty sure a man named Jesus lived and caused a bit of ruckus.

But to me, this is about as much evidence of my superiority over my fellow man as my interest in True Detective.

You are establishing, in your mind, a hierarchy of persons, from wise to fool, based upon your own idiosyncratic What's Hot/What's Not list.

Here is an eye-opener for you: Some people wonder more about the First Mover than you or I do. Some people find scientific explanations implausible or unsatisfying.

This does not make them fools; it makes them of a different personality type than you or I.

Now, you will say they're wrong about what they believe; I'll say I agree with you.

But you are essentially doing the same thing a gay-hater does when he knocks him for being gay. The religious were born with a quixotic nature, a need to look beyond the tangible and mundane.

You and I weren't.

We should no more be "proud" of this than we're proud of our sexualities or our eye color.

The Vanity of our age is to find more and more trivial proofs that we matter. That we count. That we're better.

Politics, religion, racial or gender identity, sexual preference... all of it. We stupidly look at the world with eyes full of greed for proof that We Matter. We're Better. We're Special.

There is more to the world than that, if you look. Even if you don't believe in any god.

Some religious people find meaning, and personal validation, in Jesus. Some others seem to find a great deal too much meaning and personal validation in not believing in Jesus.

Let it go. Let vanity go.

I have a theory, which I frankly have not thought about very hard, but my theory is that Vanity is the handmaiden of all other sins.

For no other sin can be undertaken without causing a revulsion in the conscience except that Vanity -- or as a modernist would term it, ego, the Almighty I -- makes up a complicated and nonsense justification for that sin.

Let it go man. Let it go.

So I guess this makes me an agnostic Deist Buddhist or something.

Who knows. Who cares.

Go with God, or, if you like it better, go without him.

But get over your ego. You'll move faster and lighter without it.

http://ace.mu.nu/
go-B

climber
John 6:44
Mar 2, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

...more than a candle! :)
dirtbag

climber
Mar 2, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
Go-B,

I hope you realize the Bible has been extensively edited by mortals.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 10, 2014 - 12:51am PT
I had my coworker who is Indian, with no predisposition to Christianity, but also vegetarian - read John 6:53-58:

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

He almost puked..

'You are what you eat' is not so new of the idea apparently?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:16am PT
It brings into play the question of those who absolutely, positively believe that the bible is the actual true written word of God, and that everything in it must be taken as literal truth......any here?

So is Jesus advocating cannibalism? Is that the only way to Heaven?

Could any of the literalists explain that?
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:19am PT
"So is Jesus advocating cannibalism? Is that the only way to Heaven?"

Why ask stupid questions?

Scientist make experiment to see.

Start eating people and find out ......

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:26am PT
The bible says god created the 10 commandments on stone tablets.
Moses wasn't up there with a chisel & a hammer.

So why doesn't god create bibles?
Because god is an idea, and can't directly manipulate matter.

Believe what you will.

God, if you believe in all that stupid sh#t, watches you. Even if you fail to acknowledge this, you can feel it.

God and his minions, are here to help us. Some of you will spit on his friends, some will disregard Him, but Jesus lives.
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:29am PT
Matter is the inferior energy of God.

Even an "Idea" is non different from God.

The atheist class is very unintelligent ......
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:33am PT
Looks like Jseus believed in his words. Did it work out?

Christianity started as cannibalistic cult and was run that way for the first 300 years, Christ flash and blood passed down the line by consuming the bodies of sect members who had his flash and blood in them. But then they decided to soften up a bit. Cannibalism was not widely accepted in Roman society at that time to put it mildly, and to gain popularity Christians turned all that into allegory of sort. Religion is an instrument of power after all, and back then religion was The instrument of power. So they betrayed Christ and terminated that chain of passing his flash to new generations and making him live forever as he believed, all for the political gains.
What else is new.
jstan

climber
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:44am PT
We have direct quotations and writings from prophets and philosophers who antedated this Jesus by hundreds of years. Nothing from Jesus. Only from authors hundreds of years after.

Perhaps Jesus could not read or write? Buddha was educated and in Herod's day many Romans had the technology. Is there data on the level of education among the Jews and their writings? Would be surprising if there were not.

If Jesus could not read or write, God must have been rather a poor father. In that case we might expect a lot of murder, injustice, and unfinished tasks in our world.

Interesting.

Herod was what we would today call a climber. Anything, absolutely anything, would serve if he gained and held power. It was a truly vile time. I think a story of an uneducated disenfranchised Jew who tried to work against that day's villainous politics would make a great tale. It would be that except for all the politics and striving for control over people's lives that came after. Would you not agree?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:59am PT
John, you are reaching, baby!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Mar 10, 2014 - 02:03am PT
Interesting. Perhaps Jesus could not read or write? Buddha was educated and in Herod's day many Romans had the technology. Is there data on the level of education among the Jews and their writings? Would be surprising if there were not.

Educated though he may have been, there are no writings directly attributable to Buddha, either.

All we have is from his disciples. It's kind of the way it works.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 10, 2014 - 02:07am PT
Coz, i'll give a shout-out to jesus for ya. Be safe, and rock on !
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 10, 2014 - 03:01am PT

Interesting. Perhaps Jesus could not read or write? Buddha was educated and in Herod's day many Romans had the technology. Is there data on the level of education among the Jews and their writings? Would be surprising if there were not.

In Herod's Day, Jewish boys by age 8 regimentally read and wrote the Torah. Doesn't say specifically but it's assumed Jesus was raised in this manner. At the age of 12, Jesus was documented as quoting the Torah to the High Priests. At the age 30 Jesus opened the bible and read from Isaiah to the temple. Jesus could read and write.

The 12 apostles that walked with Jesus began giving their first-hand eyewitness accounts of what Jesus had said and done only days after Jesus rose to heaven. They first waited for the filling of the HolySpirit. Then they all went in different directions throughout the world preaching what Jesus had taught. The first four books are the authored testimony by four of the apostles.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 10, 2014 - 09:31am PT
Documented? My reading indicates there is scant to no historical evidence that Jesus existed at all. Where are these documents?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 10, 2014 - 11:25am PT
The earliest historical reference to the Gospels occurs occurred in 125CE. Their authorship remains unknown.

It seems that the Epistles of Paul, who never met Jesus, provide the historical foundations of what was to become Christianity. Paul doesn't mention the Gospels, however. Most of the tenets of Christianity - the resurrection, the divinity of Christ, etc - owe their origins to Paul's writings. Neither the writings of Jesus nor those of his fellows survive. From a historical standpoint, Paul, not Jesus, is the most influential person in history.

The church Paul created and organized was part religion, part business. Christianity provided a network of trading partners in disparate cities at a time when there were few to no other organizational frameworks available to support long distance commerce. That Christianity's teachings promoted toleration of foreigners jibed quite well with the trading aspect of the venture.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 10, 2014 - 11:52am PT
because it's based on an antiquated god concept whose interpretations lead to so much senseless violence and bloodshed.

a hundred years from now concepts, ideas or metaphors of god will have changed. In America they won't be so exclusively centered on, or monopolized by, Jehovah (aka Yahweh, aka the God of Moses aka the God of Abraham).

too bad that time isn't now.

.....

when there were few to no other organizational frameworks available

that's right.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 10, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
given that

a) America is a first world outlier in its religiosity,
b) particularly in the popularity of recently invented fundamentalist Christian sects, like the born again movement, which preach literal interpretation of the Bible, discrimination, rejection of basic science, and other teachings that go against modern scientific and social trends,
c) those very same sects have hemorrhaged over a quarter of their flock since the early 90s, and
d) other developed countries have become vastly more secular in recent years

God may well look very different than today in the American future, if He's still around at all. If Biblical Literalism survives - The Word 2.0 probably won't say much about discriminating against homosexuals or subjugating women, or a 6000 year old planet.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 12, 2014 - 10:23pm PT
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Mar 13, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
The real question is not "why does everyone hate Christianity so much?".

The question should be why does Christianity hate everybody else so much.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 29, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
Why do so many liberals, who (as a group) claim to embrace diversity, promote tolerance of divergent views and take offense at the merely hint of racism or LGBT derision

Because that is anti-Christian.
When coming from Christians, it is hypocrisy.

And it worries people. If a Christian ignores one major precept (love), why will they not ignore all of the Commandments, if convenient?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 29, 2014 - 06:39pm PT
Why do so many liberals, who (as a group) claim to embrace diversity, promote tolerance of divergent views and take offense at the merely hint of racism or LGBT derision

Why don't so many conservatives do the same?

who don't they believe the same as "liberals" on those issues?

isn't that what Christ preached?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
Why do so many liberals, who (as a group) claim to embrace diversity, promote tolerance of divergent views and take offense at the merely hint of racism or LGBT derision... why do so many of them think it's acceptable to completely abandon those principles and resort to hateful, offensive bigotry when it comes to Christians and Christianity?

Because they are hypocrites . As are all major political players. And the intolerance is not just confined to Christians but to any opposition that stands in their way.
They view Christians as representing a set of values which the western liberal establishment has targeted for demolition, much like the various factions of Marxism attempted to accomplish by outlawing religion (the opiate of the masses) as a matter of course in the old Soviet Union and Maoist China.

At the present time the representatives of this type of political thinking cannot outlaw Christianity ---so they're going to attempt to stomp it into oblivion. One cannot stomp something into oblivion and tolerate it at the same time. Hence, they've opened up a full court press on religious culture. Science is their big 7 ft. guy playing center for the team. The old Leninist/Stalinist Bolsheviks use to call him "scientific materialism"
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 29, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
Many christians are still latching onto the days when they were lion feed and love playing the victim..The truth is that some of the more vocal christians have control issues and pretend that the rest of society are their subjects..Same thinking as the Muslims that want to kill non-believers...Too bad mankind has to deal with both extremists..The barbeque would be more peaceful without these yellow jackets buzzing about...
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
Apr 6, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
"Because of the way Christians behave."

Gandhi was once asked by a Christian, "What religion has the best philosophy?"

"Christianity," he said.

The Christian then asked, "Why then aren't' you a Christian?"

"Because I've seen how Christians behave," Mahatma explained.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Apr 7, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
Great quote about an innocent man?

the bank's ex-chairman was declared innocent.

let he who is without sin cast the first stone

Malemute's link is irrelevant to actual religion and is about crooked bankers. Even other Chistians hate the Vatican.

You can find links like that for any organization.

Pick a religion. I'll find a link.

Here's a start.
http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/06/buddhist-monks-having-a-louis-vuitton-scandal.html


http://thebea.st/1cy7HFA

http://iwpr.net/report-news/kyrgyzstans-top-muslim-cleric-unseated-sex-scandal

I'll bet I can find one on the Amish...hell, there's a tv show on them.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Apr 7, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
“Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence what so ever.”
― Sam Harris

Religion belongs in the dark ages, the infancy of man.
TY
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Apr 7, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
Religion belongs in the dark ages, the infancy of man.

We are all grown up now? Really?
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Apr 7, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
We are all grown up now? Really?

Hardly. However, if we are to grow, to move forward, we need to discard those things that are divisive. The dogma and totalitarian nature of religion is an albatross around our necks.We have a choice. We have two options as human beings. We have a choice between conversation and war. That's it. Conversation and violence. And faith is a conversation stopper.
TY
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Apr 7, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
__
Apr 7, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
Even other Chistians hate the Vatican.

I see your problem, right there in that sentence.

And its true, there's the rub!!!!

;D

All too true.

DMT
__

Got it.

My problem is I spoke the truth.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 7, 2014 - 10:38pm PT

Hardly. However, if we are to grow, to move forward, we need to discard those things that are divisive. The dogma and totalitarian nature of religion is an albatross around our necks.We have a choice. We have two options as human beings. We have a choice between conversation and war. That's it. Conversation and violence. And faith is a conversation stopper.

Faith is ALL about conversation and an openmind! Seems as though you don't know ur history all that well? It is the belief in God that has propelled mankind forward since the advent of the printing press. It was a belief in God that enables you to live in the freedoms today you take for granted. It was a belief in God that abolished slavery In this country. It was a belief in God that started the first Universities for the progression of mans mind. I could go on and on. But you don't want to listen or talk. You want to war. You want to force your opinions with violence because you can't see what I have. I have a total grasp on life and humanity and I hold them in high esteem and I give thanks and praise to The Lord Jesus for bringing me out of the bondage of being an animal. Your blinded by hate for something you don't even understand.
Ur right, we all need to grow. But you can't know where ur going if you don't know where you been!
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Apr 7, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
Faith is ALL about conversation and an openmind!

History is littered with untold number of corpses that did not enjoy the benefit of your "open minded "faith. Crusades, Inquisition, the subjugation of women( half the human race) and on and on. Perhaps it is you who needs a history refresher. I have never heard of an atheist suicide bomber. Nor have we burned , drowned or murdered because of our lack of faith. Good men do good things and bad men do bad things. It takes religion to make good men do bad things.
TY
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 7, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
Can I find the answer to the original question without having to read the whole thread?

Also, if anyone has time. Since 'everyone' would include Christians, just the answer to why Christians hate Christianity so much would help.

-St. Augustine
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Apr 7, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
A bunch of finger wagging hypocrites.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Apr 7, 2014 - 11:34pm PT
Rankin nails it.
And by the way, morality, our concept of The Golden Rule or ethic of reciprocity, predates Christianity by at least 800 years depending on your source. The Golden Rule can be found in the early contributions of Confucianism (551–479BC), the Code of Hammurabi (1780 BC) ancient China, Egypt and Greece.
"There are sections of the Bible that I think are absolutely brilliant and poetically unrivaled, and there are sections of the Bible which are the sheerest barbarism, yet profess to prescribe a divinely mandated morality—where do I start? Books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Exodus and First and Second Kings and Second Samuel—half of the kings and prophets of Israel would be taken to The Hague and prosecuted for crimes against humanity if these events took place in our own time." Sam Harris
The Bible and the Koran are hardly a beacons of morality.
TY

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Apr 7, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
blu, yur a beacon, yur goin to heaven fer sur.

.....

TYeary, nice to see you're into Sam Harris! What he says about all that old-school bs mixed with not wanting to hurt people's feelings being a "conversation stopper" is spot on. Time for change.

Fight the good fight. In the interest of civilization, its continuity for starters.

Attacks on atheism are usually personal, moralistic, and atrociously argued (not surprisingly). Coyne on the latest...

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/the-worst-atheist-bashing-article-of-the-year/
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 7, 2014 - 11:54pm PT

Are you suggesting that a aspiration to a high moral standard is not possible without belief in a particular god, rather than another god or no god at all?

Not particularly. Any man can posses the same moral equivalency as his neighbor or village if he so partakes. But for the example of slavery. Lincoln was just the signer of the bill. It was a Scottish Protestant who hearing a sermon form the bible on how all men are created equal was he inspired to argue and fight for the rights of black people. Prolly the first white man to profess that the black man was created in the image of God. At the time This was a slap in the face to everyone. Atheist and religious alike. Slavery was socially accepted by all and commonplace. So even the religious had it wrong and by no means am I sticking up for all people who claim to be religious or Christians.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:20am PT

if these events took place in our own time." Sam Harris

That's just it, the whole bible HAS to be taken in context. The Old Testament was written for people from 0 AD - 10,000 BCE. The New Testament was written for now. That's not to say we're to disregard the OT. There are many lessons we can learn of Gods character and that of mans. Whenever you hear people down talking the bible because what is said in the OT they haven't a clue about Christianity.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:21am PT
You want to war. You want to force your opinions with violence because you can't see what I have. I have a total grasp on life and humanity...

This is the scary part.

Refers back to my post a couple weeks ago. I thank Fate, Reason and Science every day compassionate and peace-loving Christians and Muslims who take the bible's supernaturalisms literally don't have the numbers to create law if not fatwa in this democracy.

Don't let em fool you.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:35am PT
Can't read all of these last two pages tonight I don't have time. But Tony, I respect you mucho. So, please tell me exactly your definition of religion. I only ask this because my best friend, jesus, disclaimed the religion of his heritage and time.

If people read Matthew Chapters 5,6 and 7 and lived it our whole world would change for the better.

I rarely enter these threads of religion and politics but thought I'd drop by tonight. I don't think everyone hates the real jesus, just the false christianity. Jess sayin' I don't have a lasso around the truth. But then has the truth ever been lassoed? Aren't we all learning, I hope, loving and exploring life and all it holds for each of us?

Peace, Joy and Love on a beautiful Monday night. lynnie
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:42am PT

The Bible and the Koran are hardly a beacons of morality.

That's not the claim. The moral of the OT is the 10 commandments. The moral of the NT, and the lesson Jesus taught is to love ur brother as thyself. No one can live by the big 10. And no one can keep hold of any morals. That's what the whole bible and our own experiences teaches us. That's why God sent Jesus, to pick us up when we fall.


Oh and what about those Japanese Zeros. They where unreligous suiciders.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:25am PT
By any love and respect for human dignity measure of morality, certainly one that embraces confirmation by weight of evidence over ruling blind faith in unsubstantiated doctrine enforced by complete deference to untestable authority, queers are no more or no less a moral type of people than the rest of us.... kind of like the european Jews of 1930. We know that as fact not blind doctrinal faith, just as at one time we suddenly discovered that in fact the world was round not flat.

Careful. You are looking down it to the hole that is Godwin.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 02:04am PT
Bruce I respect ur arguments, but I'm still learning too.
One thing, morals only arise when there are two are more people. So firstly I only need to be right to what pertains to the immediate me. That means not going against my conscious. which is the summation of all my reasoning through what I've seen and experienced. What's ok for me might not be ok for you. And visa versa. So by whose mold should we form these morals?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 03:16am PT

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that was the intent, rather than as a club of dominance and submission.

You know ur not that far off.. I seeing now how materialist(compared to spiritualist) get blinded by the rules and laws and fear punishment. You really should read the NT. the whole reason for Jesus was to do away with the laws. Man cannot be perfect and is not good. Atleast in Gods eyes. And not that we shouldn't try to be the best we can be. The only law Jesus said you must follow is to love your brother as yourself! Think about that. Could you ever tell your brother to f*#k off for ever because you didn't agree on something? Or disown him for taking 50 bucks out of ur wallet. You might get pissed, but if rationalized with an apology would you forgive him. And if he loved you like a brother he prolly wouldn't do that in The first place. God will forgive us for anything and we should do the same to each other. What you do for the least, is the most you can do for God. Meaning, when help someone that isn't as fortunate as you, you are acting like God. That's not jus giving someone money, it's giving advice, knowledge, guidance, discipline,etc. I think brotherly love is the only moral we need.
stuv

climber
NL
Apr 8, 2014 - 06:51am PT
I'm fine if other people are practicing christians and can find strength in it or whatever, just don't come to my door to talk to me about it and don't try and teach any of it in public schools. That doesn't seem to resonate much, though.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Apr 8, 2014 - 11:08am PT
When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies. It can't be said any clearer than that. This IS the reason faith is a conversation stopper.
TY
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 11:41am PT
What about discussing ones hopes and dreams?

The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
"The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude."

All that and more can be pursued without subscribing to a imaginary diety. What I'm asking you to entertain is that there is nothing we need to believe on insufficient evidence in order to have deeply ethical and spiritual lives.
TY
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude.

When I attempt to think beyond myself, I seek to understand the minds of other people, and their potential beliefs that there is not a creator or that there are multiple creators, or that their creator may not be clothed in Christianity.

"Every mind belongs to God," within the context of believing your own version of God, is basically a declaration of war. It is a mandate that others peacefully accept your wisdom and way of thinking, or else.... And history shows us many times over what comprises the "or else" part.

I mostly agree with TYeary... faith may not stop a conversation exactly, but it does prevent one from changing position based on the conversation. At best, it can lead to an understanding of each other's perspective with no movement of one's own position. But the same can be said for Reason. One who is steeped in Reason and hears a Faith-based argument is quite unlikely to change position based on the conversation. So Faith and Reason are two orthogonal measures, different dimensions, completely non-exchangeable. If you want to persuade someone who values one of those more than the other, then that dimension is the only means of accomplishing the goal.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
Sarah Palin has attitude.

What else has she got?

the eternal respect and gratitude of the Republican Base
Sanskara

climber
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
Class, that's what she has got.

That's one classy woman that Palin.

Brains I forgot brains!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:37pm PT


“The punishment of every disordered mind is its own disorder.”


jstan

climber
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies. It can't be said any clearer than that. This IS the reason faith is a conversation stopper.
TY

Well said.

If people did not get something out of fabricating a belief system, they would not. The net costs are difficult for a person to calculate because the benefits are personal, but liabilities are cultural.

My impression is the Abrahamic cults have a level of insanity rather different from other belief systems. We may be laboring under this because one person, Herod, was both brilliant and quite simply insane. So it is, 2000 years later, we have this baggage threatening our survival.
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
Class, that's what she has got.

That's one classy woman that Palin.

Brains I forgot brains!


Such sarcasm! (You were being sarcastic, weren't you???)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 8, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
One thing, morals only arise when there are two are more people.

I totally disagree.

I think that morality, like character, is best defined by what you do when you think no one is looking.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 9, 2014 - 12:56am PT
Nice post Nut!
"Every mind belongs to God," within the context of believing your own version of God, is basically a declaration of war. It is a mandate that others peacefully accept your wisdom and way of thinking, or else.... And history shows us many times over what comprises the "or else" part.

I concede to ur point. If you don't believe in a Creator, maybe you think you and your mind are a product without intention? Or maybe you have some other enlightenment? My point was merely a creative inspired impulse based on personal experience. You know, freedom of speech. I still don't understand how people can wage war over talk? Oh yea, hate.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Apr 27, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
Anybody watching Orphan Black?

Science fiction. Human cloning. Moral implications.

They're portraying Christians as crazy batshit freaks.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 27, 2014 - 02:21pm PT
^^^ Sorry Fruity
We're not so much into science fiction as you seem to be.

We're into what's REAL LIFE!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
http://www.nationalturk.com/en/1500-year-old-syriac-bible-found-in-ankara-turkey-16624


1500 year-old ‘ Syriac ‘ Bible found in Ankara, Turkey : Vatican in shock !


Ancient Bible in Aramaic dialected Syriac rediscovered in Turkey
The relic was ‘rediscovered’ in the depositum of Ankaran Justice Palace, the ancient version of bible is believed to be written in Syriac, a dialect of the native language of Jesus.

Ankara / Turkey – The bible was already in custody of Turkish authorities after having been seized in 2000 in an operation in Mediterranean area in Turkey. The gang of smugglers had been charged with smuggling antiquities, illegal excavations and the possession of explosives and went to trial. Turkish police testified in a court hearing they believe the manuscript in the bible could be about 1500 to 2000 years old.After waiting eight years in Ankara the ancient bible is being transferred to the Ankaran Ethnography Museum with a police escort.

Ancient Bible will be shown in Ankaran Ethnography Museum

The bible, whose copies are valued around 3-4 Mil. Dollars had been transferred to Ankara for safety reasons, since no owners of the ancient relic could be found.

The manuscript carries excerpts of the Bible written in gold lettering on leather and loosely strung together, with lines of Syriac script with Aramaic dialect. Turkish authorities express the bible is a cultural asset and should be protected for being worthy of a museum.

Ancient Bible in Aramaic dialected Syriac rediscovered in Turkey

Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic – the native language of Jesus – once spoken across much of the Middle East and Central Asia. It is used wherever there are Syrian Christians and still survives in the Syrian Orthodox Church in India and a village in the vicinity of Syrian capital Damascus. Aramaic is also still used in religious rituals of Maronite Christians in Cyprus.

Experts were however divided over the provenance of the manuscript, and whether it was an original, which would render it priceless, or a fake. Other questions surround the discovery of the ancient bible, whether the smugglers had had other copies of the relic or had smuggled them from Turkey.

Vatican eyes the faith of the ancient relic

The Vatican reportedly placed an official request to examine the scripture, which was written on pages made of animal hide in the Aramaic language using the Syriac alphabet.

The copy of the ancient Bible is valued as high as 40 million Turkish Liras ( 28 Mil. Dollars)



Apparently the Gospel of Barnabas claims Jesus wasn't crucified but ascended directly to heaven and that it was Judas who was actually crucified in his place.
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