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Messages 1601 - 1620 of total 2159 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
WBraun

climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:35am PT
Just see intelligent person shows up ^^^^

After that stupid rabid dog stopped barking at the white space in his twisted head.

Somebody must of threw a rock at the dog over the fence ....
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:54am PT
Blue, the flaw in the Bible may be in its alleged precision that you allude to. A topo can also contain such flaws...

... "oh my God, this rating is so Old Testament, and the pins are rusting!!!"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:56am PT

Ignored, Forgotten, Dead

^^^ that's a fact jack!
Because you can't have material spiritualism.
That's why wen the Catholicism and Mormonism and Muslimism run out of money, they'all will be forgotten too.

Edit: I had to fix this. I did not realize intelligent people were watching.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:59am PT

... "oh my God, this rating is so Old Testament, and the pins are rusting!!!"

That's why it's ALL A3+
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:25am PT
Had to stay up late to catch my Cinnamon Dream,

Esperanza Spalding.

I call out all you mechanicalist to go sit in the corner with earbuds positioned, cranked to 10.
And listen to Esperanza Spalding with the score card in hand and determine what the outcome will be. How could anyone besides maybe hitler could say humans are mechcanicalistic? After listening to that music, that voice, and Ingard Thomas' trumpet.
That's sentience BABY!! Bending the Body, and Bending the Notes!


Edit: BTW, you can catch a live version on PBS/SoCal. And BTW is the only tv worth watching. Have you seen their programs on the brain, or the one on climate change?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:58am PT
The real challenge is that human experience is unlike any other known "thing" on the universe.

Is it?

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 8, 2013 - 08:05am PT
BTW what does the Miller-Urey experiment have to do with anything?

Did you click the link to the wiki page I provided? If you didn't understand the material presented, then you would benefit from taking an organic chemistry class.

If you're just having problems following the logic of: basic ingredients + energy -(millions of years)-> amino acids/nucleotides -(millions of years)-> RNA/DNA -(millions of years)-> early life form -(millions of years of natural selection)-> more complex life forms -(millions of years of natural selection)-> basic neural control system -(millions of years)-> reptilian brain -(millions of years)-> increasing complexity of the brain/control system -(millions of years)-> intelligence -(thousands of years)-> extinction by overpopulation/industrialization because we learned to control our environment but not our waste (oops, thread drift!), then I can't help you.

Tra-la-la!
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 8, 2013 - 08:08am PT
That's why wen the Catholicism and Mormonism and Muslimism run out of money, they'all will be forgotten too.

Edit: I had to fix this. I did not realize intelligent people were watching.

Probably should've had one of them help you...
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 8, 2013 - 09:59am PT
“Ideology and religion are contraindicated for fanatics.”
Ilkin Santak
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:45am PT
http://www.yosemiteclimbing.org/
yosemite climbing association, paypal
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
basic ingredients + energy> amino acids

Is the the only experimental product of the Miller-Urey experiment you listed.

It does not prove that life arose by chance , or independent of chance, or by design.
It merely concludes that if you simulate what was "thought " to be the primordial conditions on Earth roughly 3 billion years ago you get organic constituents from inorganic precursors.

Actually you don't even need the precise conditions Miller-Urey simulated since amino acids have also been discovered within meteorites.

As regards the Miller-Urey experiment your flow chart was largely a waste of time, except as a hypothesis and a leap of faith.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
It does not prove that life arose by chance , or independent of chance, or by design... waste of time, except as a hypothesis...

Please, stop. You're an embarrassment.

If you're interested in these subjects, take the courses.

.....

P.S.

You, too, go-b. Prove to the world you're not as bronze-age minded as a billion-plus fundamentalist Muslims.

I mean, seriously, how can you be proud of the fact that your thinking in religion or theology is no more advanced than that of these billion-plus fundamentalist Muslims? or their ancient ME ancestors?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
If you're interested in these subjects, take the courses.

Make your argument to refute anything I have asserted about the Miller-Urey experiment .

Put it in your own words---for a change.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
I wouldn't argue with you any more than go-b or blu - you're a waste of time.

.....

For the more discriminating, who follow the frequent dust-ups between science and the humanities, you might enjoy...

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114548/leon-wieseltier-responds-steven-pinkers-scientism

Note that this piece might have some talking points for Largo, Sullly.

It follows a great article Steven Pinker wrote same magazine a few weeks earlier...

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities


It's all, shall we say, graduate level, more or less. ;)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
^^^^^
Please, stop. You're an embarrassment.

If you're interested in these subjects, go to church.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
I wouldn't argue with you any more than gob or blu - you're a waste of time.

You can't argue with me because in this case you have no argument .

It's not the guys you're playing with , you just don't have the ante for this pot, or the guts and skill to run a bluff.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Where'd the amino acids come from?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Miller's experiment was therefore a remarkable success at synthesizing complex organic molecules from simpler chemicals,

Yes it was for its time, quite a sensation in 1953. Remember, a few decades later amino acids were discovered in meteorites.
Had they made the meteorite discovery before Miller-Urey that experiment probably would have only been notable for its hypothetical simulation of early conditions on Earth., if they had decided to conduct it at all.

Where'd the amino acids come from?

In the M-U experiment they came from water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
The real challenge is that human experience is unlike any other known "thing" on the universe.

Is it?
-

Expand human experience to self-conscious ( a spectrum) experience by any creature. Then tell us how said experience is like something else non-experiential, in any way shape or form.

JL
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 8, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Interesting shite follows. Seems scientists - bio-chemists in this instance - are anything but in accord per the dream of "biogenesis."

"Miller Urey, while appearing to support spontaneous biogenesis, in actuality indicates the reverse. The model of the atmosphere was incorrect, the Oceanic "primordial soup" has never been shown to exist, the experiment itself was rigged for the production of organic molecules, and the published results were skewed by omitting some of the results.

"The atmosphere of ancient Earth, according to Miller-Urey, was composed of Methane, Ammonia, and Water (with traces of Hydrogen.) This atmosphere is by no means the actual ancient Earth atmosphere: there are at least two other atmospheres that are considered, but are often discluded because of much lower yield of organic molecules. The atmosphere is also thought to have been Carbon Dioxide and Water, or Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen, both of which are far less reductive, hence were not put to the Miller-Urey experiment.

R.C. Dowen has said:

"Now, for the first time in 30 years, the widely accepted recipe for the primordial soup is changing from one rich in hydrogen- composed primarily of methane and ammonia- to a Hydrogen-poor atmosphere similar to today's sans (minus) the Oxygen.

"No geological or geochemical evidence collected in the last 30 years favors a strongly reducing atmosphere....Only the success of the laboratory experiments recommends it.

"Scientists are having to rethink some of their assumptions. Chemists liked the old reducing atmosphere, for it was conductive to evolutionary experiments.

Another flaw in the atmosphere is that all exclude oxygen gas. Often Oxygen production is only produced by photosynthesis, but this is really an oversimplification. Oxygen has been known since the 60's to be produced at high altitudes with the effect of ultraviolet light on water in a process known as photolysis. R.T. Brinkman has calculated the bare minimum amount of free oxygen in the atmosphere and has concluded that Earth has always had at least a 5% Oxygen gas atmosphere. Other scientists, who are willing to let uniformitarianism fall by the wayside, compute levels ranging anywhere from 10 to the -1 to 10 to the -15, more or less evenly distributed throughout.

Now what does a disagreement of 14 powers of ten suggest? It suggests that these folks haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

All this does not consider the various "organic" chemicals that were produced by Miller-Urey that impede life. Among the most prevalent of precursor molecules of monomer synthesis is HCN. While HCN is often attributed with much chemical synthesis, such as the amine of amino acids, its mere presence would be fatal to any precursor metabolisms because of cyanide's overkill reductive powers. In short, the monomers would have to form, then all of the HCN decompose to an extremely low level (parts per trillion at least) while still retaining all of the monomers, then and only then could a primitive life form develop.

"If there ever was a primitive soup, then we would expect to find at least somewhere on this planet either massive sediments containing enormous amounts of the various nitrogenous organic compounds, amino acids, purines, pyrimidines, and the like, or alternatively in much-metamorphosed sediments we should find vast amounts of nitrogenous cokes. In fact no such materials have been found anywhere on earth.

"In the end, while experiments like Miller-Urey may have interesting results, they prove nothing if not linked to physical evidence from atmospheric studies or geochemistry. Primordial soup producing life is a myth that makes the Biblical Flood look docile and credible in comparison.
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