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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:14pm PT


Where'd the water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen come from?

I'm curious how science explains something borne from nothing.

I think what Chaz is getting at here is the origins of the universe.
Maybe you can give him an answer Ed.
Don't forget to include the "nothing" in his question.
LOL
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
"To a scientific rationalist, there is no distinction between believing in leprechauns, alien abductions, ESP, reincarnation, or the existence of a God-each equally lacks objective evidence. ... Separating out the latter two beliefs and labeling them as religion-thereby exempting them from critical analysis-is intellectually dishonest. . . . [Indeed] the most widespread and sacredly guarded superstitions [are] the most important ones to oppose, for they have the greatest influence and can therefore do the most harm."
David Bloomberg
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
the dialog in the play is a lot better than the movie...

certainly sullly is better read than I, absolutely, I would not think otherwise...

but we all make choices, and hopefully we can all sit around the campfire and talk to each other, about our experiences and how they all enhance our life, brief as it is...

I wouldn't exclude many from that campfire...

...and I think I've told you in person that I value your contributions to this virtual campfire.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
I've been appreciating Richard Burton of late . That generation of British Shakespearian stage actors like Gielgud, Olivier, O'toole, and others...wow




Shakespeare has in essence been collaborating with great actors across several centuries.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 8, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
Ancient books do contain some worthwhile stories and advice, as do many other fiction and non-fiction books. In fact, here’s good advice from Matthew 3:12: “Let us separate the wheat from the chaff.” All books contain both wheat and chaff, and we should offer rational arguments to help us decide which is which. In doing so, let’s look at and question the evidence presented today, not simply assert the authority of a deity or an unquestioned faith in a book written a couple thousand years ago. As a secular and enlightened country, we must show respect for the many scientific findings that have replaced ancient superstitions.
Herb Silverman
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/05/29/for-atheists-all-religion-is-superstition/
thebravecowboy

Social climber
Colorado Plateau
Sep 8, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
"The act of bell ringing is symbolic of all proselytizing religions. It implies the pointless interference with the quiet of other people." -Ezra Pound
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
"The Vatican is against surrogate mothers. Good thing they didn't have that rule when Jesus was born."
Elayne Boosler
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
If you're interested in these subjects, take the courses.


I've been saying this all along per the subjective adventures, but on this list, people apparently expect something for nothing, or lack the interest to do much more than just noodle things from their desks. Of course if this worked in this arena, who in their right minds would bother with all those silent retreats and getting up super early and interrupting things to get quite and do nothing? Nobody, that's who. Much of the experiential adventures are so far removed from fun it's hard to remember why you're pushing on sometimes when you could be bouldering or reading or taking out the trash. But when the lights flickers through the cracks, you know otherwise.

Ed's challenge to try and define sentience is tempting to try right now but I'm tired. But I'll leave you with this.

The standard definition for Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity.

Wiki says: “In the philosophy of consciousness, sentience can refer to the ability of any entity to have subjective perceptual experiences, or as some philosophers refer to them, "qualia." This is distinct from other aspects of the mind and consciousness, such as creativity, intelligence, sapience, self-awareness, and intentionality (the ability to have thoughts that mean something or are "about" something). Sentience is a minimalistic way of defining consciousness, which is otherwise commonly used to collectively describe sentience plus other characteristics of the mind.

Some philosophers, notably Colin McGinn, believe that sentience will never be understood, a position known as "new mysterianism." They do not deny that most other aspects of consciousness are subject to scientific investigation but they argue that subjective experiences will never be explained; i.e., sentience is the only aspect of consciousness that can't be explained. Other philosophers (such as Daniel Dennett) disagree, arguing that all aspects of consciousness will eventually yield to scientific investigation.”

Note that the definition of sentience refers to a capacity or ability that is not specifically designated as the result of any physical activity. The problem here is that this is unlike how "things" work in our mundane world.
a cloud rains; the sun boils and flares; a guitar gently weeps. But with all of these cases, rain, sun flares and musical sounds are physical things we can get hold of and measure.

Sentience, the ABILITY and experience of experiencing itself, is not of the same nature of rain, sun flares and music, which are things thta other things do. Even if we go to so-called inherent properties we are still talking properties themselves that have their own physical qualities. A carnation IS red. We might say that red is what a carnation does. But when we say that sentience is what the brain does, we don't have red to grab hold of. This is a subtle one that many never grasp.

Even saying "X is what Y does" is an admission that what the brain is (Y, meat) and what it is purported to do (X, BE conscious) are not selfsame, but unlike the clouds and the rain, the sun and those flares, the guitar and the music, and the carnation and the red, sentience itself provides no physical "thing" to grab and announce - THIS is what the meat brain is doing. Instead we can only point at the meat brain itself and declare, "That IS sentience."

Again, there is no physical sign of "sentience" as the thing the meat brain does, there's just the meat brain. This slippery thing called sentience, purportedly what the meat brain does, is simply not there in the sense that clouds have rain, the sun has the flares, the guitar has it's weeping, and so forth, each of these attributes being not only physical, but clearly distinguishable from the host (cloud, sun, guitar, flower) itself.

Imagine looking at the cloud when it's NOT raining and saying, "That's rain right there. That cloud IS rain."

Had we never seen rain before, we'd all gaze at the cloud and scratch our heads and say, "What the hell are you talking about? What rain? And what is rain, exactly? You're saying the cloud does something beyodn what I am seeing right now, but show me that something."

The reason we can look at the meat brain and say, that IS consciousness is because we have, so to speak, seen it before. We all live in it all the day, from birth to death. But trying to define it as you might frame rain and music and blue remains slippery for the reasons just stated - plus others.

JL
MH2

climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
"The act of bell ringing is symbolic of all proselytizing religions. It implies the pointless interference with the quiet of other people." -Ezra Pound

I remember fondly my days of proselytizing high in the tower at University of Chicago.




The bells are set on wheels so that they ring when the mouth of the bell points upwards, the better for God to hear them.
MH2

climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
Largo said:

First, what makes you think so? I'm not doubting that you believe this, I'm just curious how you came to it. This sounds a little like, "Awareness is what the meant brain does," a non-answer that would never fly if applied to anything. Purple Haze is what a guitar does, and all that. This is, of course, folly - we can easily see why.

But I'd be interested in hearing more about the pure awareness you must have experienced to actually know that content was not needed. Again. people speculate wildly on this thread so if you have actual experiences in this regards, I'm interested in hearing all about them.



What makes me think so? In these posts the quotes are yours and the replies are yours:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=834799&msg=2219545#msg2219545

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=834799&msg=2220573#msg2220573


I was only introducing you to yourself since you seemed to share the same interests. I hope you are able to resolve your differences.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
what does the shark think...?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 8, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
...so if you have actual experiences in this regards, I'm interested in hearing all about them.

So, you're all about asking everyone else about their "experiences" but "respectfully declining" to really share any your own, hey? Pretty shabby heirophantery, if you ask me. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, right?

And yeah, clouds are rain. Deal with it.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 8, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
Much, but not all, of the evidence used against the accused was spectral evidence, or the testimony of the afflicted who claimed to see the apparition or the shape of the person who was allegedly afflicting them. The theological dispute that ensued about the use of this evidence centered on whether a person had to give permission to the Devil for his/her shape to be used to afflict. Opponents claimed that the Devil was able to use anyone's shape to afflict people, but the Court contended that the Devil could not use a person's shape without that person's permission; therefore, when the afflicted claimed to see the apparition of a specific person, that was accepted as evidence that the accused had been complicit with the Devil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
sullly, the Bard seemed to think a woman the proper subject for taming... in spite of his other skills...


in 1918 Emmy Noether went to the University of Göttingen to work with David Hilbert, perhaps the foremost mathematician of the 20th century. Here appointment to the faculty was blocked by the objections of the humanities faculty who felt women should not be granted the privileges to teach.

from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmy_Noether

One faculty member protested: "What will our soldiers think when they return to the university and find that they are required to learn at the feet of a woman?"[26][27][28][29] Hilbert responded with indignation, stating, "I do not see that the sex of the candidate is an argument against her admission as privatdozent. After all, we are a university, not a bath house."


She was the first woman mathematician to give a plenary address at the International Congress of Mathematicians in 1932 (the next woman mathematician to do that was Karen Uhlenbeck in 1984).

Somehow, the humanities took a bit longer to recognize that women could achieve what man had... though it seemed the talents of a mathematician may be recognized their sex not withstanding...
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 9, 2013 - 09:44am PT
Among the subjects of this Inquisition were Franciscus Patricius, Giordano Bruno, Tommaso Campanella, Gerolamo Cardano, Cesare Cremonini, and Galileo Galilei. Of these, only Bruno was executed; Galileo died under house arrest, and Campanella was imprisoned for twenty-seven years. The miller Domenico Scandella was also burned at the stake on the orders of Pope Clement VIII in 1599 for his belief that God was created from chaos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Inquisition
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:24am PT
Inner Peace: This is so true

If you can start the day without caffeine,

If you can always be cheerful, ignoring aches and pains,

If you can resist complaining and boring people with your troubles,

If you can eat the same food every day and be grateful for it,

If you can understand when your loved ones are too busy to give you any time,

If you can take criticism and blame without resentment ,

If you can conquer tension without medical help,

If you can relax without alcohol,

If you can sleep without the aid of drugs,



...Then You Are Probably .........


































































The Family Dog!

photo not found
Missing photo ID#320465
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:49am PT
^^^ Thats a good one go-B

Domenico Scandella was crucified for his beliefs in God. Doesn't that make him a Christian?

Menocchio said: "I have said that, in my opinion, all was chaos, that is, earth, air, water, and fire were mixed together; and out of that bulk a mass formed – just as cheese is made out of milk – and worms appeared in it, and these were the angels. The most holy majesty decreed that these should be God and the angels, and among that number of angels there was also God, he too having been created out of that mass at the same time, and he was named lord with four captains, Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. That Lucifer sought to make himself lord equal to the king, who was the majesty of God, and for this arrogance God ordered him driven out of heaven with all his host and his company; and this God later created Adam and Eve and people in great number to take the places of the angels who had been expelled. And as this multitude did not follow God's commandments, he sent his Son, whom the Jews seized, and he was crucified."
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:54am PT
The religious people have an answer for that. I'm not sure if I buy it or not, but they at least came up with something.

I'm wondering how science explains it.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:54am PT
Menocchio said:

...he was eventually burned at the stake in 1599, at the age of 67, on orders of Pope Clement VIII.

Uh-huh. Murder the unbelievers to shut them up. That's hateful by today's standards, and it's been proven not to work very well. So it's hard to see what your point is.
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