Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 05:33pm PT
|
Most probably couldn't. Ever rented a helicopter for the afternoon?
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 05:41pm PT
|
Should backpackers, swimmers, drivers, overeaters, or hikers pay for theirs? The way I understand it, the majority of the budget goes to rescuing lost/injured hikers.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 06:17pm PT
|
eating fast food is the real high risk activity!
|
|
jfs
Trad climber
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 06:22pm PT
|
The never-ending debate...
From AAC “Climbing Rescues in America: Reality Does Not Support ‘High-Risk, High-Cost’ Perception”:
 Nationally, Rock Climbing and Mountaineering account for 3.3% and 1.8% of all NPS rescues. Day hiking comes in at 30.6%, Motorized Boating at 21.9%, Swimming at 13.7%, Overnight hiking at 10.4% (2003 data)
In Oregon (most complete data of any state) climbing rescues accounted for 3.8%, just slightly out-pacing Mushroom Pickers at 3.3%.
"Yosemite’s experience confirms the national perception that the most expensive search and rescue incidents are searches for lost persons. Of the 10 most expensive rescues in Yosemite between 2000 and 2004, five were for day hikers and four were for
overnight hikers, while only one was for a climber. Two hiker
rescue incidents each exceeded $100,000 in cost, with the most
expensive being a $123,699 unsuccessful search for a lost day
hiker. The lone climbing rescue was 10th highest at $23,264. While technical climbing terrain contributes to higher average costs, the known location of climbers, the experience of rescuing climbers from most routes in the park and the ability of climbers to self rescue in less serious accidents all limit climber rescue costs."
"Climbers also pose less of a fiscal drain on the public than other recreational groups needing rescue, because their rescues utilize a much higher proportion of volunteer labor than do rescues for other commonly rescued groups."
And a bunch of other arguments. It's a worthwhile read: [url]http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pdfs/MRreal.pdf[/url]
At minimum, if you charge climbers, then charge EVERYbody...keeping in mind that climbers, as a group, tend to pay attention to, and manage, the risks associated with their activities way more than any of the other groups...and, are much more likely to self-rescue.
I'd wager that most climbers here take full responsibility for their actions...and the possible consequences. But when sh** happens, I'd hate to think of some buddy of mine sitting on a ledge with a shattered tib or concussion, unable to self-rescue, holding off on making the call because he knows he won't be able to pay the tab.
My $0.02.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
|
Heading into an ice climb in the Kananaskis Country (eastern edge of the Rockies in Alberta) a while back I ran into the command center for a search & rescue operation. When I asked if it was a climber they all looked at me like I was an idiot and said "Nah, it's another hunter."
They said hunters were by far their most frequent clients.
I think that may be true in Alaska, too.
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 07:00pm PT
|
Every client of the local rescue squad gets a bill.
|
|
murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 07:09pm PT
|
what's the enforceability of that? is there a statute saying that rescuees owe the fair and reasonable costs of their rescue, or is it some kind of implicit contract attending use of the lands, or are the rescue agencies just hoping the rescuees will do the right thing, or what?
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 07:16pm PT
|
Murcy, clearly it depends upon state law. The rescue squad in question has a budget based upon charitable donations, fees for service, a modest contribution from Princeton - they have an ambulance at football games, e.g. and probably some small amount from the town.
Most, but not all, of the EMTs are volunteers. The equipment is expensive to purchase and maintain. Training and keeping current costs money as well. The volunteers even purchase much of their own clothing out of pocket.
In most cases, they probably collect, just like in most cases doctors collect. Insurance generally covers it. But in the end, assuming you do not refuse medical attention, who would you expect to pay?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
|
The REAL problem is a culture of entitlement.
Everybody should be responsible for the expenses they incur.
|
|
Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
|
Bingo we have a winner.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
|
Insurance is the effort to spread the costs so no single person is bankrupted by an accident. So are government programs that sponsor such things as hospitals.
Group resources is how many societies improved themselves and is directly responsible for survival in many cases.
Every man for himself is bitter and cold. Eventually someone has a bigger gun. Everyone in America has benefited in many ways from group efforts.
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 07:52pm PT
|
Everyone should pay for their own rescue costs.
Climbers should set up an organization (NOT the AAC) that offers rescue insurance simular to that offered to hikers, fishermen, hunters etc. Then maybe we could afford to cover the costs if and when they occur.
JR
|
|
HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 08:11pm PT
|
Here in California the county the person lives in gets the bill. Sometimes that county will go after the person, but usually only in rare cases.
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 08:52pm PT
|
hey there all... say, i always wondered about this... i had assumed some kind of a bill was sent to folks... like they do with abulance rides ,etc... i never had thought too much more... thanks for the share, you all....
yep, i had heard that day hikers getting lost or hurt, on not paying attention to weather, are a high-risk, as to accidents, lost, etc....
say, jfs, as to your quote:
"keeping in mind that climbers, as a group, tend to pay attention to, and manage, the risks associated with their activities way more than any of the other groups...and, are much more likely to self-rescue."
jfs---this is so true, even so, it is so true to many rural ranch folks that i know too---know you terrain, know your working-land, know you climb... know you critters, set yourself accountable as to your tools, etc, KNOW your job...
|
|
Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
|
It can depend on who rescues you.
If it is some private outfit, and their chopper has enough equipment to fix Frankenstein, then you will get a bill that reflects the expense of the equipment.
A CHP chopper would be cheaper.
If you are lucky, you might catch somebody out practicing helicopter rescues.
Happened to someone in the Dinky Creeks area a while back.
No bill.
Two grand used to be the standard bill a long time ago.
It can only be higher today.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
May 28, 2008 - 11:10pm PT
|
I believe that in some places in the U.S., the irresponsible who need to be rescued are sometimes charged with endangering the lives of the rescuers, and fined an amount that has some relation to the cost of the search/rescue.
Not those who are reasonably prepared for the situation, just those who are unprepared, poorly equipped, or otherwise behaving in a Darwinian fashion.
|
|
Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 02:06pm PT
|
MH - the NPS has a term called "Creating a hazardous situation" for the rest of the US it can fall under disorderly conduct. In both cases the person must cited, tried, found guilty, and then as part of the sentencing be required to pay for the rescue costs.
Oddly when my partner needed a rescue we both had insurance to cover it. Unfortunately, the NPS could not give us a formal bill for the rescue. Without it we could not use our insurance. The NPS noted that if we want a citation we could get a bill. We both declined this option.
|
|
Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 04:34pm PT
|
The climbers in UK almost bankrupt the RAF over the amount of rescues they cause per year. Few years ago, a drunken British climber send the rescue team on a wild goose chase looking for missing climbers. After three days of intense search, he figured out he was drunk as the time of reporting and his friends were never there.
Average rescues in Chamonix France is about 1500 a year. Almost 90% via helicopter that cost $2000 per hour to operate plus paying another five on board to do SAR 24/7/365.
|
|
Josh
Trad climber
Watsonville, CA
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 04:48pm PT
|
I'm with you John Moosie.
Most of the responses seem to be saying that 'we' should pay for 'our' own rescues. The only difference seems to be how people define 'we'. Some people seem to define it as the individual, some as the group of people that participate in rock climbing, some as a governmental agency (the county), some as the group of people insured by an insurance company.
I think in the long run it works to everyone's best interests to define 'we' as broadly as possible. Imagine.
|
|
Will Hobbs
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 05:05pm PT
|
'The climbers in UK almost bankrupt the RAF over the amount of rescues they cause per year.'
That is, if I may say so, utter nonsense. UK mountain rescue teams are manned by volunteers and paid for by charitable donations. The only cost incured to the taxpayer is if a helicopter is recquired. Where this is the case Royal Navy or RAF combat search and rescue units are used, and the cost comes out of their training budget since it is considered excellent training for their operational role. Much better than, say, winching a stuffed dummy up and down which is what they would be doing with the money otherwise.
Consistent with the statistics and personal experiences posted above for the US, the vast majority of call-outs are for hikers and tourists; climbers represent a very small fraction. Most UK mountain rescue teams now post their reports online, so you can confirm this yourself. Some of the busiest teams in climbing areas that you might like to google include Ogwen (North Wales) and Lochaber (Scottish Highlands).
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!