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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 30, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
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Doug's posts are getting a little wolfish, if you know what I mean.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 30, 2008 - 07:56pm PT
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"So how, by line-item events, did the National Park Service, insatiably desperate for more money, take-over mountain rescue activities at great tax payer cost, against the objections of climbers?
Does the question constitute grinding an axe, or asking a question?
I would say they it involves perhaps more axe grinding then really asking a question. Your tone of voice and your choice of words convey this. Plus you have prejudgement in the question.
Just my dumb downed american tax paying 2 cents.
John
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 30, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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Yoooo John my good friend.....
Having wisely answered the question before I uploaded it, with an answer verifiably sustainable against all questions, the prejudgment you suggest is actually the answer, precisely what you would want of any question, and certainly not what you would attempt to discredit before you discover the answer by any means, unless you were attempting to defend the use of government power that can never tolerate questions of its contradictions.
Asking and answering questions is referenced as reasoning. Evading questions, and imposing damaging contradictions by force is referenced as the corruption of power.
If somebody asked the questions you needed to hear and answer to save your life, defend your rights, reduce your wasted taxes or other benefit to you, in an axe grinding tone of voice or otherwise not of your mind's trained comfort, would you answer the questions or ignore them because of their PERCEIVED nature?
Well?
If commonly intelligent people were to believe the government, rather than question its incessant and obvious lies upon which its power over other people is dependent, you would still perceive that your country's king was a divine entity, under threat of jail or worse.
Are you not fortunate that the people who ask and answer questions, regardless of their uncomfortable nature, and thus advance human knowledge, are amused by the government sorts who sustain their ignorance by denigrating questions rather than answering them?
No real mountain climber will accept a job as a National Park Service mountaineering ranger whose primary job is to arrest climbers who damage nobody or nothing, but refuse to comply with the Park Service paperwork idiot drills because they are a waste of tax money and infringe on individual rights, and who then fool fools with their claims of helping the climbers.
The nature of real climbers is that of seeking harmless freedom beyond the useless strictures of idiots in government, even at obvious risk to themselves.
Left with police mentality personnel who are inherently incompetent at what they claim to do, by design of those who attempt to make other people's decisions for them, and impose those decisions with force, the Park Service mountaineering rangers are one of the best learning examples for the results of asking no questions of authority.
So precisely how did the Park Service seize mountain rescue activities, at great taxpayer cost, over the intensive objections of the many volunteer mountain rescue groups, of real climbers happy to rescue their colleagues at no taxpayer cost?
Or should climbers not ask such questions, and instead remain as ignorant as Park Service rangers?
Well?
Doug
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 31, 2008 - 12:03am PT
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Hey Doug,
I live on private property surrounded on all sides by a national park. More then once the park has tried to force people out through the use of the law of imminent domain. They used what many would consider to be underhanded methods to get people to sign away their property for very low prices. Scare tactics such as telling a person they would get nothing if they didn't hurry and sign over their property. Many people succumbed to the pressure, but a few didn't and sued. They won.
I have lived in this community for 20 years and have had to deal with the park service on a number of issues. I understand that they can be a ponderous and seemingly truculent force to deal with. In fact I would say that I am very aware of this issue.
Yet I also know that the government is made up of individuals and those individuals can be held accountable and they can change and they can be influenced. Is this easy? hahaha....I think you know the answer to that.
Earlier you asked...
"Does the question constitute grinding an axe, or asking a question?'
I answered you as best I could. I think you have an axe to grind and don't really want an answer to your question. Your language leads me to believe that you either just want to pick a fight, or you want to try and show how superior your thinking is. Neither of these attitudes leads to any sort of cohesive dialog. This is of course just my opinion.
You seem to act as though park service employees should be saints and answer your questions no matter how you ask them. Perhaps they should behave like saints, but then perhaps so should you.
I simply recognize they they aren't saints and neither am I. So if I really want an answer, then I try not to attack with my tone of voice. Sometimes I fail at this, (you might have noticed some of my conversations with LEB ) haha..
As for answering your own questions. Then why ask the question. It appears you didn't want an answer, you just wanted to state your opinion and therefore you shouldn't expect anyone, including those saints in park service, to answer you. As you really didn't ask a question, you stated an opinion.
Certainly ask all the questions you want and especially ask the tough questions, but I can not agree with you that answering your own questions will somehow lead to a solution. That isn't a question. It is an opinion. You don't seem to want to know how someone thinks. You appear to want to tell them how and what to think. That isn't dialog and it certainly doesn't amount to a question, even if phrased in the form of a question.
I hope you will think about this as it doesn't seem that you have been successful with your dialog with the park service.
John,
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 31, 2008 - 12:11am PT
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Doug,
After reading through all of your posts I have come to the only reasonable and logical conclusion about the pieced together disconnected arguments you are attempting to convey.
You are writing this stuff purely for the Supertopian's enjoyment and comic relief.
This may be my favorite phrase, " the "free" wilderness permits and current presidential ego gratification wars," So, free wilderness permits are part of the same master plan to oppress and deceive the innocent American people as the Iraq war?
Wow, where do you come up with such brilliance? Better than Al Franken, David Letterman, or any other comedian I can think of.
To bring back the relevant issues of the thread:
As jfs noted,
"Nationally, Rock Climbing and Mountaineering account for 3.3% and 1.8% of all NPS rescues. Day hiking comes in at 30.6%, Motorized Boating at 21.9%, Swimming at 13.7%, Overnight hiking at 10.4% (2003 data)
"Climbers also pose less of a fiscal drain on the public than other recreational groups needing rescue, because their rescues utilize a much higher proportion of volunteer labor than do rescues for other commonly rescued groups."
Maybe the day hikers and motorized boaters of the world should be the ones to really get upset about the lucrative budgets of publicly funded rescue teams. According to the statistics its their rescues that are driving the "highly lucrative rescue administration budget".
Just a couple thoughts, but I've been brainwashed so what could I know.
Cheers,
Jesse
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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May 31, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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mt10910: "Ranger Rick (who are you referring to? Jesse?) "can I hire my own helicopter to rescue me on elcap or do I have to use the park service's, service? seems to me if the park serivce encouraged self-rescue then I should be able to hire my own rescue or have my friends with a heli rescue me".
"Hire your own rescue"? What does that mean? You've got friends with a helo who are willing to ferry rescuers to the top of El Cap? Who? And what rescuers? It seems like you misunderstand some of the logistics, mechanics and economics involved.
Are you really proposing that climbers always effect their own rescues on El Cap and elsewhere? That's laudable...and completely unrealistic. Just look around at some of the threads right here on supertopo. Climbers relate how they told themselves they would never call for a rescue only to be humbled by conditions or debilitating injuries. And those folks have usually (always?) been appreciative of the efforts put forth by dedicated rescuers.
Do those rescuers always have to be agency personnel? Not always. But there's a point at which it is unrealistic - and probably unwise - to expect climbers with limited medical and rigging experience to effect complex rescues. That's where the cool mesh of climbers and agency personnel can happen - and does. Look at the SAR sites in Yosemite. The Tetons. Denali, Rainer, Devils Tower, Zion, Joshua Tree, Rocky Mountain, Big Bend, Glacier: NPS managed areas where climbers and NPS personnel work hand-in-hand to pull off amazing rescues. Routinely!
Look, every year there are injured climbers who get themselves off walls and mountains without ever asking for help from "the authorities". And most of the time they do a great job of it and everyone is psyched for them. And for those times when they can't, I've found they're pretty excited to see the mixed agency/climber teams who show up to assist.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 31, 2008 - 01:40am PT
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Good questions.
I will ask some of my own of you.
If you allow helicopter rescues in the park, who determines when they are needed? The person being rescued? Because I could see some rich dude climbing McKinley and then calling for a rescue just because he could afford it and didn't want to hike back, or was a little cold, or just wanted some hot coffee.
Anyone for Starbucks?
Or how about this, one family has some funds and wants little johnny plucked off the mountain cause he called and said he was cold and scared. So they hire a chopper but the chopper crashes cause the chopper pilot didn't have the necessary training, but he thought he did and convinced the family he did. Who pays to clean up the mess and rescue the downed pilot and crew? What if the family is now out of funds? It is a bit different to leave a downed chopper to rust away on some BLM land where no one hardly ever goes, it is another thing to leave it on a mountain like McKinley.
Just sayin is all.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho
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May 31, 2008 - 01:55am PT
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Y'know , the hospital tried to charge me with helicopter costs,after my rescue & I decided that if they haD left me there with a sack & a couple days water, I'd been no worse off. Passing monkeys can & will do a stitch or two for you; They are your people, after all.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 31, 2008 - 02:08am PT
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Much can be learned from comparing the comments of one person, with the responses of another.
All human-caused problems result from the failure to adequately communicate.
If a question is asked, it seeks an answer, by definition. To suggest that the questioner does not want an answer, as a defense against answering it, is to maintain one's ignorance and define one as not having learned the utility of language or communication.
A statement, made or heard, causes very little thinking process in the human mind. In contrast, a question causes more thinking process in the mind, if the mind answers the question rather than flees it.
Did you want to advance your thinking process, within the competitive human species predicated on the thinking ability of its mind, to advance your knowledge, or remain as ignorant as those who simply believe the laughably ignorant government dolts who flee all effective questions?
It does not matter if the asker wants or needs an answer. If you answer every question you ever encounter, you will advance your knowledge beyond those who flee questions. It is YOUR intelligence that you are advancing, not that of the guy who asked the question.
I owe you no answers because I have made no demands on you. But the Park Service exists on making demands on people, and is paid by their money, so it lawfully owes an answer for every citizen question of Park Service contradictions. That does not require a saint. It requires a person of sufficient intelligence to understand the preceding sentence, and plain honesty. Intelligent and honest people will not work for the Park Service, as proven by the simple questions they consistently refuse to answer after accepting the benefit (salary) for the performance of their duties to the public.
The object of an effective question to a power-damaged mind is not to get an answer, or the question would be worthless, but to identify the questions the government dolts refuse to answer when they hold the paid duty to do so. The answer immediately becomes obvious to any thinking person, while the government chaps sustain their ignorance.
Because the Park Pigs issue tens of thousands of fraudulent citations every year, for their insatiable taxation by citation program, fraudulent under prevailing law, you can use them to have fun asking the questions they and those they fool, the type questions that advance the knowledge of the other SuperTopo readers who think about the questions.
And Jesse my friend, consider your question..."So, free wilderness permits are part of the same master plan to oppress and deceive the innocent American people as the Iraq war?"
Wise to have asked the question rather than have made such a dumb statement.
The answer is, Not to my knowledge, because humans are not sufficiently intelligent to create such master plans. When you extrapolate your comments into absurdities, you identify yourself as one who extrapolates their comments into absurdities.
It is not a master plan. It is the effects of power-damaged minds who perceive that they can fool all of the people all of the time. Tax paid wilderness permits, which are permission to exercise a right, which is a contradiction of terms and an unlawful demand, based on lies, are effected by the same process of lying that effects wars, fooling fools. The commonality is the perception that power can prevail against reasoning (questioning) in the human species predicated on the reasoning ability of the mind.
Because questions to people who do not think enough to answer questions are mere entertainment, perhaps this will assist you. In the future when fewer Americans are fooled by the current lot of lying government dolts and their unthinking supporters, as with every power-based empire, society will no longer pay extra taxes for unquestioning and thus ignorant Park Service rangers, for mountain rescues, when volunteer rescue groups of actual climbers will do the work at no tax cost. MZiebell's praising of the tax paid agencies ignores the many cases of deadly Park Service incompetence and negligence that is getting worse because they cannot answer the type questions that advance their knowledge.
Until then, enjoy the grand comedy of those who so noticeably remain ignorant and self-fooled by not answering questions. That is their value to society.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 31, 2008 - 02:29am PT
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And if self-rescue or exclusive volunteer rescue groups could create problems, then because Park Service sorts come from the same population pool, precisely why do the Park Service sorts not as often suggest that Park Service rescues could create problems, if not because their power-damaged minds were trained to perceive that the agency can do no wrong, and they are so ignorant of the process to question contradictions that they cannot identify questions such as this?
The Denali National Park chief mountaineering ranger who blocked the civilian rescue efforts in the Clouser-Scanlon case was promoted to Superintendent, instead of fired and convicted of manslaughter or murder.
There is no such thing as power that does not corrupt. Fools praise those who use power instead of the reasoning effected by answering questions.
Humans, the best comedy on the rock.
Doug
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho
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May 31, 2008 - 02:31am PT
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I always used to joke that they could 'rescue' anyone , anytime....we have trank rifles, after all...
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 31, 2008 - 04:55am PT
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Consider the nature of climbers and environmentalists, in regard to mountain rescues.
Referenced above is the University of Alaska's alpine club, with an amusing history of back and forth take-overs by bird watchers, environmentalists and climbers.
Since the club was again taken over by environmentalists at an election meeting loaded with non-climber Northern Environmental Center people, to support the Park Service against the climbers during the Alaska Lands Act debates, and the climbers therefore formed their own Alaskan Alpine Club, the environmentalists continued teaching a University sponsored climbing class that did not produce a single member for the local mountain rescue group. They supported dependence on tax paid Park Service rescues (adults needing a parent).
The University club organized other University funded efforts to disadvantage the local mountain rescue group whose existence embarrassed their Park Service-dependence teachings, much to the amusement of the climbers. They are environmentalists supporting their god-figure National Park Service.
Their tax subsidized efforts in a small community of climbers were eventually successful as the climbers who had learned individual responsibility aged out of the activity. The knowledge of individual responsibility is hated by government personnel whose jobs are dependent upon being the parent for dumbed-down adults.
Most amusing and indicative, while the Alaska Alpine Rescue Group of actual climbers has not existed for years, the University club website still states that it still exists, despite their club officers having been repeatedly informed that it does not exist. How difficult can it be to tell such a simple truth that new climbers would want to know? The environmentalists are dependent upon sustaining illusions to fool fools. If their members are fooled into believing that somebody is there to save them, they will have no incentive to ask the obvious questions.
The dependence on lies inherently escalates the lies since truth destroys all that is built on the first lie.
The story of responsible mountain climbers and their volunteer mountain rescue groups overtly or functionally usurped or destroyed by government for its insatiable quest for more excuses for more taxes for more government power, is a classic.
When the contradictions effect their own inherent collapse, the mountain climbers after that will marvel at how gullible the American mountain climbers became, much to the amusement of the observers.
Oh, and if you are a University of Alaska climbing class student, start asking some questions, or do not be surprised if you get in trouble in the mountains, and the people coming to help you are not real climbers, as was the case with three previous class members who therefore died.
Doug
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