Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
|
In Alaska we laugh at this trite old discussion.
If the US had a national mountaineering organization of honest leaders, this discussion would not exist. Alas, the ignorant US climbers have acquiesced to the representation of the American Alpine Club, the VERIFIABLY most anti-climber organization in the world, much to the laughter of Alaskans.
The Alaskan Alpine Club established the first national Mountain Rescue Fund back in the 80's. It is open to anyone, for any off-road adventure activity. You can read about http://AlaskanAlpineClub.org/Rescue.html. Besides its formal name, Mountain Rescue Fund, we call it embarrassment insurance, what it actually is. It pays basic rescue costs and thus makes the rescued climber look responsible.
Unlike the AmerAC membership insurance which need never pay because of the fine print, and serves to enrich the AmerAC, their lawyers and the insurance industry, the AknAC Mt. Rescue Fund has no fine print.
But the National Park Service, its pocket AmerAC, Access Fund and other environmentalist controlled mountaineering organizations have extended themselves deep into desperate lying to deny its existence since it was started.
What the anti-climber AmerAC, Park Service, lawyers and such pitiable sorts will not tell you, is that it is not lawful for the government or anyone to impose a liability on a compelled benefit. You have to be fooled into paying. There can be no lawful charge for a rescue, because no rescue entity holds a legal obligation to rescue you (risk their lives), or you could successfully sue them for a failure to meet a lawful obligation to successfully rescue you. The principle is that of the police holding no lawful obligation to defend you from a criminal, and lawyers holding no lawful obligation to inform you of the correct or applicable law, etceteras.
Now compare that with the AmerAC and Access Fund functionally supported $200 tax to climb Denali, based on the Park Service's lie that the money pays for rescues, fooling fools. Most Alaskan climbers do not have to pay the tax, because we know how to apply prevailing law that is hated by government and lawyers.
Because this discussion has made fools of US climbers for decades, especially those who support the AmerAC and Access Fund, spread the word at least to your friends so you can laugh at the climbers who keep themselves ignorant.
There is more to learn about this issue, but US climbers listen to their environmentalists organization leaders who are lying to them, instead of asking effective questions of the obvious contradictions in those lies.
And keep on having entirely too much fun.
Doug
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
|
|
MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
|
"the National Park Service, its pocket AmerAC, Access Fund and other environmentalist controlled mountaineering organizations "
Thanks for your perspective.
Alaska: "Where the odds are good, and the goods are odd"
Visit Doug at DougBuchanan.com to see what I mean...
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 07:01pm PT
|
About five years back a buddy and I got choppered off a peak in the Sierras after my partner pulled off loose block while downclimbing a crack that fell with him onto a ledge about 10 feet below and landed on his pelvis, breaking it. The block kept rolling off the ledge and went for BIG air while my partner had the presence of mind to do a spread eagle and arrest his fall.
Anyways, after a long, cold, miserable night (especially for him) the following morning a Blackhawk from a Sacramento air base came and plucked us off. During the flight off a crew member told us that they rely on rescues such as ours for realistic training that they usually can't get unless they're in combat.
|
|
Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 07:32pm PT
|
It seems that the free solo guys never need help.
I guess you climb in a more conservative fashion, but then again, some of the free solo stuff on Youtube is just ridiculous.
|
|
socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
|
If I ever got myself into a situation that I could not get myself out of, I'd happily accept the help of others and cover the costs incurred to save my ass.
The mindset where one would expect these costs to be paid for by others is completely foreign to me.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 07:44pm PT
|
Yooo my good friend Mziebell.....
Thank you.
Indeed, within the normal social bell curve, social climbers are found in the center of the curve, and mountain climbers are found at the odd ends of the curve.
You are most perceptive.
There is a caveat. In Fairbanks Alaska, at the social end of the road, the bell curve is inverted.
As a previous Army helicopter driver, Vietnam veteran with Alaska duty, I can assure you that the drivers and unit commanders crave real rescue missions within what is otherwise an ongoing waste of tax money flying expensive military helicopters for administrative missions of scant military mission training value.
The Park Service never says those words when wailing the need for more fees and more climbing regulations because of "irresponsible" climbers needing rescues. And the American Alpine Club does not genuinely oppose its politically environmentalist colleagues in the Park Service.
For additional perspective, on one moderately entertaining Alaska Range rescue of a climber, the Army helicopter driver and unit commander stated to the volunteer mountain rescue sorts (AlaskanAlpineClub members) in his helicopter: "If any of my guys ever go down in the mountains, I am calling you guys, not the government."
If you ever learn about the ClouserScanlon case, in which the Park Service blocked several civilian initiated rescues for accident victims on Denali, to control the rescue for a budget excuse, as usual, and then willfully conducted no rescue with military helicopters under its command, until people died during the subsequent four days, proven in court, among similar cases, and what happened as a result, you might learn why those odd knowledgeable mountain climbers do not speak highly of the environmentalist controlled American Alpine Club, Access Fund and their ilk who support the Park Service against the actual climbers.
High quality entertainment these humans, odd lot that they are.
Doug
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 07:54pm PT
|
Doug, how long have you been in Fairbanks?
Used to live up there, and I swear that if you don't know someone there, you at least know on of their friends. One degree of separation, though on in a West Virginia kind of way...
|
|
MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 08:15pm PT
|
Hi Doug,
You said, "The Park Service never says those words when wailing the need for more fees and more climbing regulations because of "irresponsible" climbers needing rescues. That may be true in Alaska but has not been my experience in the Lower 48. I cannot recall any NPS official ever recommending more regulation because "climbers needed rescues".
In fact, I have found most NPS employees are remarkably friendly towards climbers and climbing, often offering climbers considerable latitude - far beyond what is offered to the general public. I know that there are some complaints about NPS park rangers on this forum. But when you look at the lack of regulations around climbing in most NPS areas I think you have to be impressed. I would draw your attention to Ranger Jesse McGahey's remarks in the "El Cap Permits" thread right now on Supertopo as an example of this attitude. Climbers are widely perceived within the NPS as being quite far towards the responsible user end of the impact spectrum.
Your comments are interesting, but I don't think they help with creating an attitude of open and creative discussion with land managers. Your blanket statements about the AAC, NPS and Access Fund are way off base and very much misrepresent the hard work of individuals in those organizations.
Martin
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 09:54pm PT
|
Helicopter driver. I would have thought that pilot was a more appropriate term.
Doug Buchanan (good Scottish name), it sounds like you'd be happy to see Alaska secede from the Union.
Skipt makes some very good and valid points.
And I also agree that it is rubbish that climbers in the UK almost bankrupt the RAF. Seriously Majid, where did you dig that one up.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
May 29, 2008 - 11:33pm PT
|
My good Supertopo colleagues.....
I first showed up in Alaska in 73. Got a few more routes to do. Know a few people. May not remember their names. Deal with concepts, not names.
Fairbanks climbers formed the Alaskan Alpine Club in 79, when the Park Pigs formally proposed, ON RECORD, the most severe climbing regulations in the US, that would have shut down most of the climbing in all the new National Parks summarily seized by Jimmy the Preacher.
Maybe they were just nice guys using the dishonest old tactic of intentionally threatening the worst so they could back off and say they were nice guys by imposing only half the worst. Many malicious, costly government tactics impress people who ask no questions. The Park Pigs paid themselves well during the resulting process that proved their intent. The climbers were not paid to defend climber rights and freedom. The AmerAC was FORMALLY supporting the Park Service, ON RECORD, against the climbers. The Alaskan Alpine Club came up with scarce money to send a person to Washington DC, twice during that political fight, the only climbing club in the US defending climber rights in Alaska.
Dishonest people are not nice guys, recognized by honest people but not dishonest people.
All the good you do can never excuse a single wrong, or the bank robber could donate some money to charity and have pro-Park Service sorts advocating his pursuits.
I have chit-chatted with many Park Pigs, some who did not recognize me at the time. I know how to sound like one of their government ilk, having had a couple government jobs. They have often stated that they use the good-guy bad-guy routine to fool fools into perceiving that the Park rangers are good guys, easily done among those who are impressed with government titles, and ask no effective questions. It is one of the most common routines among police fooling gullible people.
If you need a displayed attitude of cooperating with mental midget government thugs, who could not recognize an unlawful order or criminal violation of Constitutional rights if you handed them a dictionary, instead of displaying plain verifiable truth, enjoy your Nazi or George Bush styled Police State protecting you from the people who ask questions and thus learn more knowledge. As a human, did you want to learn more knowledge, or just do as you are told by that idiot Bush and this thugs? What is the nature of mountain climbers?
The laws and lawful authority to impose the laws are not what police and lawyers say. They are what is written on paper, and only then the prevailing laws (about 15 percent of all laws). Learn the easy process of prevailing law or be made a fool of by government, lawyers and organization leaders kowtowing to ignorance.
Do not wonder why common-sense people are amused with the common cowardly begging for rights which have therefore been rendered into deniable privileges. The act of asking permission is the lawful act of surrendering a right. Government power (instead of individual reasoning) is dependent upon an ignorant society, perhaps yours.
If any climber in the US has not heard how the Park Service got into the budget-lucrative climber rescue business, claiming that the Park Service must rescue climbers, progressively disadvantaging and ultimately outlawing most genuine volunteer rescue groups of actual climbers, they are Park Service personnel, AmerAC or Access Fund members, or those who immediately believed the Bush propaganda that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
Why, in face of their members, supporters and the US climbers they claim to represent having to pay a $200 tax to climb Denali, which the Park Service has formally stated on record as NOT paying for rescues, while commonly intelligent people who simply learn the prevailing law and its simple process, do not have to pay, have not the Access Fund and AmerAC asked the Park Service ON RECORD, as a formal question from their organizations, if Americans hold a RIGHT to walk on public land, even after the Alaskan Alpine Club has periodically sent the question to them, including this example if you wish to send it to them, for the club's amusement with unquestioning people who follow dishonest leaders and government thugs, and say how nice they are?
Well, why? Simple question. Perhaps you fear the knowledge created by questions, as do the dumbed-down Americans.
The laughably pitiable senior National Park Pig who arrested me in Rainier National Park (Washington), verifiably for my politely asking certain questions about climbing regulations, on a tape recorder, stated: "We can arrest you for virtually anything. Its true."
Enjoy your Police State, comrades. Your turn has been scheduled if you do not sufficiently kowtow to stupidity or learn new knowledge. What is the nature of real mountain climbers?
When we learned the process to easily make Alaska an independent nation back in the early 90's, we laughed robustly. Plain boring paperwork process, against which there is no defense. Might take 30 days, but if we do nothing, and keep drinking fine wine, the feds will collapse their lawless DemocanRepublicrat war Regime on schedule. Why so soon ruin the best national comedy, being enjoyed by people around the world?
No human holds the ability to sustain a contradiction, or the myriads of compounded contradictions piled up by the ignorant feds. All Police States doom themselves, by design of the human mind craving the freedom to make its own decisions.
Many airplane pilots consider themselves pilots. It is just a vehicle driving job. Wise to use no terms that socially flatter oneself or others, to more thoroughly recognize the single design of the human mind merely learning different knowledge, none greater than the other. Who is smarter or more socially elite when the car breaks down on a back road in the middle of the desert, the brain surgeon or the grease monkey?
Enjoy the show, especially that of my good friends who kowtow to other adults, apparently perceiving that the dolts with government jobs somehow hold a superior design of human mind, and must be obeyed, not questioned, much to the amusement of the observers.
Or so I might imagine.
Doug
|
|
billisfree
Mountain climber
Portland, OR
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 09:28am PT
|
Making people pay for their rescues... would make then think twice before calling for help. Thus they might increase their risks by not aksing for help.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 10:24am PT
|
mt10910 said: "oh and yes self-rescue is discouraged in the N.P.S."
You are totally full of sh'it with that statement.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
|
I've heard of a few instances of Harrison Ford piloting his personal helicopter for a mission or two.
Imagine getting a fuel bill from Hans Solo--hehe.
|
|
MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 01:36pm PT
|
"If any climber in the US has not heard how the Park Service got into the budget-lucrative climber rescue business, claiming that the Park Service must rescue climbers, progressively disadvantaging and ultimately outlawing most genuine volunteer rescue groups of actual climbers, they are Park Service personnel, AmerAC or Access Fund members, or those who immediately believed the Bush propaganda that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction."
the budget-lucrative climber rescue business, ?????
Hey Werner: YOSAR is swimming in bucks from climber rescues, huh?
Well, Doug you've almost got me pegged there: Ex-Park Service (SAR no less), AAC and Access Fund Member (From time to time when I can afford it), Bush Iraq war supporter ('fraid not...).
"volunteer rescue groups of actual climbers" Outstanding folks who are welcome at most rescues I've been a part of.
Doug, you sure do have axe to grind don't you? I'm curious, what's your story?
|
|
JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
|
Jfs,
Thanks for the clear concise data based information about the reality of climbing rescues. They are a definitely a low percentage of rescue costs here. They are usually quick, and require a relatively few number of rescuers.
The NPS position of not charging folks for a rescue has been a long time policy. A lot of people believe that if the person being rescued is particularly negligent they should be charged. If we start making that argument, any government sponsored benefits could be called into question. For example, "Why should the government pay for patients in critical condition with advanced stages of lung cancer, when they have been lifetime smokers?"
Mr. Doug Buchanan,
Let me remind you:
In Yosemite,
1.) Wilderness Permits have always been free.
2.) In many cases. Climbers enjoy more freedom and less regulation than other user groups. They don't have to get permits for overnight wilderness trips. They can place permanent anchors, leave fixed ropes (temporarily), establish their own trails, "garden or clean" routes, and rig slack-lines pretty much where ever they choose, etc.
3.) The AAC and the Access Fund have helped coordinate clean-up events, bring visitor programs, save Camp 4 from being razed, sponsor trail rehabilitation days, Climber's Coffee, worked hard to protect climber's rights to access, and consistently been involved with the NPS and other public land managers for the collective interest of climbers...even folks like you who don't support them. Have you done anything to help climber's since 1979?
I'm curious what your goal is in researching/advocating obscure conspiracies, and then presenting them on a thread about rescue costs? Are you a man of action or someone who just likes building his web-page and spraying to whomever will listen about how the "powers that be/Police State" are all out to destroy us? Should we pretty much sit around and wait for dooms day because it is going to happen no matter what? Once again, isn't this a discussion about rescue costs?
As for "the budget-lucrative climber rescue business,"
Yep, that's how I paid for my $1000 1985 Toyota Van. Its cherry with only 140,000 miles. Thank god we try so hard to force rescues on people. If not I'd still be on my bike.
Are you kidding me?
If you can make it down to the Facelift this year I'd love to sit down and have a beer and talk about some of these subjects.
Sincerely,
Jesse McGahey
Yosemite Climbing Ranger
jessemcgahey@nps.gov
(209) 372-0360
|
|
HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 06:22pm PT
|
Thanks Jesse, that one made me laugh. Good to know the Yosemite Climbing Ranger is more of "our" Climbing Ranger.
|
|
MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
|
When's the Facelift Jesse?
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 07:16pm PT
|
Of the dumbed-down Americans, the government folks are the classics, of all governments, like I once was when I told people that if we lost the Vietnam war the world would fall to communism. We lost the war.
Compare the specific words used by government sorts, to fool themselves into believing that citizens said what the government sorts accuse them of saying, to notice how government sorts fool themselves.
As I have often uploaded, there are no conspiracies. And I suggested none on this website. So why would Jesse the Park Ranger state: "I'm curious what your goal is in researching/advocating obscure conspiracies,...", if not to fool himself (easily done)?
As known to fundamentally dishonest and ignorant people, if the facts support your case, use the facts. If they disprove your case, attack the credibility of the person offering the facts.
Conspiracies are contradictions attempted by two or more people, a fool's pursuit since humans hold no ability to sustain a contradiction, by design of the human mind, a contradiction identification and resolution device.
Notice the words of Jesse McGahey the Park Ranger. Because government is based on force rather than reasoning, its personnel must invent rhetorical illusions to keep fooling its unquestioning personnel. Pity them. They remain comically ignorant.
Like the needless Park Service rescue administration budgets, highly lucrative to the bureaucracy at great tax payer expense, the "free" wilderness permits and current presidential ego gratification wars, etceteras, constitute excuses to tax people more and create a wealthier, more powerful central authority, always with more police to arrest those people who do not get the permits that change nothing on the land.
In Denali National Park it is a punishable violation of regulations to rescue a fellow climber without first notifying the Park Service. That is how stupid and malicious Park Rangers are. They spend their time flattering themselves and defending their power, rather than resolving their glaring contradictions. If one park is currently playing the good guy, with "free" permits, the Park Rangers point to it, instead of their other costly maliciousness. If you pay taxes, those permits and their paper shuffling bureaucracy are not free, a concept vastly beyond the understanding of Park rangers.
Like all power-based bureaucracies, the AmerAC and Access Fund spent the maximum amount of money donated by gullible climbers, to primarily flatter themselves and the Park Service for the process to sustain the existence of Camp 4 (a Park Service invented scam as proven by the results), that could have been effected with one certified letter including certain questions for record. Since then they and the Park Service have continued to laud themselves for the lucrative scam, fooling themselves and other fools.
The first Park Service budget request for mountain rescue activities on Mt. Rainier was discovered on record as based on the per hour time of the rangers back at headquarters monitoring the volunteer rescue groups on the mountain, plus the per hour time of the volunteers if they had been Park Service personnel. The funding request did not mention the volunteers, and implied the costs as current Park Service expenses. After they got the funding from an unquestioning congress, their inherently incompetent park rangers took over the rescues and annually scammed larger budgets.
Park Service and all other government agency budgets are based on the same type lies George uses to fund his current wars.
Enjoy the show. Oh, if you are a Park Ranger or military sort, quit your job so you do not remain as stupid was I when I believed rather than ASKED QUESTIONS of the glaring lies of government. The designed ability of your brain is worth no less. Leave the government with those it deserves.
And the Alaskan Alpine Club (the other UIAA member in the US) has achieved much for climbers. Let me know if you ever want to have a related chit chat with the AmerAC, Access Fund and Park Service dolts who cannot face the questions the AknAC has asked. Why would any human fear any inherently harmless question?
Doug
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 07:28pm PT
|
Martin, the 2008 Yosemite FaceLift is September 24th - 28th. See http://yosemiteclimbing.org/index.html for more.
If you'll be there and are helping, there's some (free) camping - contact Chicken Skinner (Ken Y) about this asap at yager(at)inreach.com
Many SuperTopians attend and help, and camp together at Yellow Pines, a group camp site. Last year there was a SushiFest on the Tuesday night preceding the official Wednesday start, and some other informal ST activities, in addition to all the evening events at the FaceLift.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
May 30, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
|
Oh, MZiebell.....
When I need to sharpen an axe, I grind it, quite logically.
When I notice a contradiction, I ask questions designed to resolve the contradiction. That is the process to advance one's knowledge.
Government folks and other institutionally power-damaged minds fear questions, and therefore quickly suggest the grinding of axes, conspiracies and other rhetorical illusions to avoid resolving their contradictions since government creates rather than resolves contradictions, by design.
The most advanced outdoor activity rescue process was that created by mountain climbers, because only climbers were capable of functioning where climbers go.
So how, by line-item events, did the National Park Service, insatiably desperate for more money, take-over mountain rescue activities at great tax payer cost, against the objections of climbers?
Does the question constitute grinding an axe, or asking a question?
If you use words that hold their meanings, you will learn much.
And have fun doing that.
Doug
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!