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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 28, 2008 - 05:33pm PT
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Most probably couldn't. Ever rented a helicopter for the afternoon?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 28, 2008 - 05:41pm PT
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Should backpackers, swimmers, drivers, overeaters, or hikers pay for theirs? The way I understand it, the majority of the budget goes to rescuing lost/injured hikers.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 28, 2008 - 06:17pm PT
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eating fast food is the real high risk activity!
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jfs
Trad climber
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May 28, 2008 - 06:22pm PT
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The never-ending debate...
From AAC “Climbing Rescues in America: Reality Does Not Support ‘High-Risk, High-Cost’ Perception”:
 Nationally, Rock Climbing and Mountaineering account for 3.3% and 1.8% of all NPS rescues. Day hiking comes in at 30.6%, Motorized Boating at 21.9%, Swimming at 13.7%, Overnight hiking at 10.4% (2003 data)
In Oregon (most complete data of any state) climbing rescues accounted for 3.8%, just slightly out-pacing Mushroom Pickers at 3.3%.
"Yosemite’s experience confirms the national perception that the most expensive search and rescue incidents are searches for lost persons. Of the 10 most expensive rescues in Yosemite between 2000 and 2004, five were for day hikers and four were for
overnight hikers, while only one was for a climber. Two hiker
rescue incidents each exceeded $100,000 in cost, with the most
expensive being a $123,699 unsuccessful search for a lost day
hiker. The lone climbing rescue was 10th highest at $23,264. While technical climbing terrain contributes to higher average costs, the known location of climbers, the experience of rescuing climbers from most routes in the park and the ability of climbers to self rescue in less serious accidents all limit climber rescue costs."
"Climbers also pose less of a fiscal drain on the public than other recreational groups needing rescue, because their rescues utilize a much higher proportion of volunteer labor than do rescues for other commonly rescued groups."
And a bunch of other arguments. It's a worthwhile read: [url]http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pdfs/MRreal.pdf[/url]
At minimum, if you charge climbers, then charge EVERYbody...keeping in mind that climbers, as a group, tend to pay attention to, and manage, the risks associated with their activities way more than any of the other groups...and, are much more likely to self-rescue.
I'd wager that most climbers here take full responsibility for their actions...and the possible consequences. But when sh** happens, I'd hate to think of some buddy of mine sitting on a ledge with a shattered tib or concussion, unable to self-rescue, holding off on making the call because he knows he won't be able to pay the tab.
My $0.02.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 28, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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Heading into an ice climb in the Kananaskis Country (eastern edge of the Rockies in Alberta) a while back I ran into the command center for a search & rescue operation. When I asked if it was a climber they all looked at me like I was an idiot and said "Nah, it's another hunter."
They said hunters were by far their most frequent clients.
I think that may be true in Alaska, too.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 28, 2008 - 07:00pm PT
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Every client of the local rescue squad gets a bill.
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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May 28, 2008 - 07:09pm PT
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what's the enforceability of that? is there a statute saying that rescuees owe the fair and reasonable costs of their rescue, or is it some kind of implicit contract attending use of the lands, or are the rescue agencies just hoping the rescuees will do the right thing, or what?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 28, 2008 - 07:16pm PT
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Murcy, clearly it depends upon state law. The rescue squad in question has a budget based upon charitable donations, fees for service, a modest contribution from Princeton - they have an ambulance at football games, e.g. and probably some small amount from the town.
Most, but not all, of the EMTs are volunteers. The equipment is expensive to purchase and maintain. Training and keeping current costs money as well. The volunteers even purchase much of their own clothing out of pocket.
In most cases, they probably collect, just like in most cases doctors collect. Insurance generally covers it. But in the end, assuming you do not refuse medical attention, who would you expect to pay?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 28, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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The REAL problem is a culture of entitlement.
Everybody should be responsible for the expenses they incur.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 28, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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Bingo we have a winner.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 28, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
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Insurance is the effort to spread the costs so no single person is bankrupted by an accident. So are government programs that sponsor such things as hospitals.
Group resources is how many societies improved themselves and is directly responsible for survival in many cases.
Every man for himself is bitter and cold. Eventually someone has a bigger gun. Everyone in America has benefited in many ways from group efforts.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 28, 2008 - 07:52pm PT
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Everyone should pay for their own rescue costs.
Climbers should set up an organization (NOT the AAC) that offers rescue insurance simular to that offered to hikers, fishermen, hunters etc. Then maybe we could afford to cover the costs if and when they occur.
JR
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HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
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May 28, 2008 - 08:11pm PT
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Here in California the county the person lives in gets the bill. Sometimes that county will go after the person, but usually only in rare cases.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 28, 2008 - 08:52pm PT
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hey there all... say, i always wondered about this... i had assumed some kind of a bill was sent to folks... like they do with abulance rides ,etc... i never had thought too much more... thanks for the share, you all....
yep, i had heard that day hikers getting lost or hurt, on not paying attention to weather, are a high-risk, as to accidents, lost, etc....
say, jfs, as to your quote:
"keeping in mind that climbers, as a group, tend to pay attention to, and manage, the risks associated with their activities way more than any of the other groups...and, are much more likely to self-rescue."
jfs---this is so true, even so, it is so true to many rural ranch folks that i know too---know you terrain, know your working-land, know you climb... know you critters, set yourself accountable as to your tools, etc, KNOW your job...
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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May 28, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
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It can depend on who rescues you.
If it is some private outfit, and their chopper has enough equipment to fix Frankenstein, then you will get a bill that reflects the expense of the equipment.
A CHP chopper would be cheaper.
If you are lucky, you might catch somebody out practicing helicopter rescues.
Happened to someone in the Dinky Creeks area a while back.
No bill.
Two grand used to be the standard bill a long time ago.
It can only be higher today.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 28, 2008 - 11:10pm PT
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I believe that in some places in the U.S., the irresponsible who need to be rescued are sometimes charged with endangering the lives of the rescuers, and fined an amount that has some relation to the cost of the search/rescue.
Not those who are reasonably prepared for the situation, just those who are unprepared, poorly equipped, or otherwise behaving in a Darwinian fashion.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 29, 2008 - 02:06pm PT
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MH - the NPS has a term called "Creating a hazardous situation" for the rest of the US it can fall under disorderly conduct. In both cases the person must cited, tried, found guilty, and then as part of the sentencing be required to pay for the rescue costs.
Oddly when my partner needed a rescue we both had insurance to cover it. Unfortunately, the NPS could not give us a formal bill for the rescue. Without it we could not use our insurance. The NPS noted that if we want a citation we could get a bill. We both declined this option.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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May 29, 2008 - 04:34pm PT
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The climbers in UK almost bankrupt the RAF over the amount of rescues they cause per year. Few years ago, a drunken British climber send the rescue team on a wild goose chase looking for missing climbers. After three days of intense search, he figured out he was drunk as the time of reporting and his friends were never there.
Average rescues in Chamonix France is about 1500 a year. Almost 90% via helicopter that cost $2000 per hour to operate plus paying another five on board to do SAR 24/7/365.
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Josh
Trad climber
Watsonville, CA
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May 29, 2008 - 04:48pm PT
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I'm with you John Moosie.
Most of the responses seem to be saying that 'we' should pay for 'our' own rescues. The only difference seems to be how people define 'we'. Some people seem to define it as the individual, some as the group of people that participate in rock climbing, some as a governmental agency (the county), some as the group of people insured by an insurance company.
I think in the long run it works to everyone's best interests to define 'we' as broadly as possible. Imagine.
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Will Hobbs
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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May 29, 2008 - 05:05pm PT
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'The climbers in UK almost bankrupt the RAF over the amount of rescues they cause per year.'
That is, if I may say so, utter nonsense. UK mountain rescue teams are manned by volunteers and paid for by charitable donations. The only cost incured to the taxpayer is if a helicopter is recquired. Where this is the case Royal Navy or RAF combat search and rescue units are used, and the cost comes out of their training budget since it is considered excellent training for their operational role. Much better than, say, winching a stuffed dummy up and down which is what they would be doing with the money otherwise.
Consistent with the statistics and personal experiences posted above for the US, the vast majority of call-outs are for hikers and tourists; climbers represent a very small fraction. Most UK mountain rescue teams now post their reports online, so you can confirm this yourself. Some of the busiest teams in climbing areas that you might like to google include Ogwen (North Wales) and Lochaber (Scottish Highlands).
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 29, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
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In Alaska we laugh at this trite old discussion.
If the US had a national mountaineering organization of honest leaders, this discussion would not exist. Alas, the ignorant US climbers have acquiesced to the representation of the American Alpine Club, the VERIFIABLY most anti-climber organization in the world, much to the laughter of Alaskans.
The Alaskan Alpine Club established the first national Mountain Rescue Fund back in the 80's. It is open to anyone, for any off-road adventure activity. You can read about http://AlaskanAlpineClub.org/Rescue.html. Besides its formal name, Mountain Rescue Fund, we call it embarrassment insurance, what it actually is. It pays basic rescue costs and thus makes the rescued climber look responsible.
Unlike the AmerAC membership insurance which need never pay because of the fine print, and serves to enrich the AmerAC, their lawyers and the insurance industry, the AknAC Mt. Rescue Fund has no fine print.
But the National Park Service, its pocket AmerAC, Access Fund and other environmentalist controlled mountaineering organizations have extended themselves deep into desperate lying to deny its existence since it was started.
What the anti-climber AmerAC, Park Service, lawyers and such pitiable sorts will not tell you, is that it is not lawful for the government or anyone to impose a liability on a compelled benefit. You have to be fooled into paying. There can be no lawful charge for a rescue, because no rescue entity holds a legal obligation to rescue you (risk their lives), or you could successfully sue them for a failure to meet a lawful obligation to successfully rescue you. The principle is that of the police holding no lawful obligation to defend you from a criminal, and lawyers holding no lawful obligation to inform you of the correct or applicable law, etceteras.
Now compare that with the AmerAC and Access Fund functionally supported $200 tax to climb Denali, based on the Park Service's lie that the money pays for rescues, fooling fools. Most Alaskan climbers do not have to pay the tax, because we know how to apply prevailing law that is hated by government and lawyers.
Because this discussion has made fools of US climbers for decades, especially those who support the AmerAC and Access Fund, spread the word at least to your friends so you can laugh at the climbers who keep themselves ignorant.
There is more to learn about this issue, but US climbers listen to their environmentalists organization leaders who are lying to them, instead of asking effective questions of the obvious contradictions in those lies.
And keep on having entirely too much fun.
Doug
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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May 29, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
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"the National Park Service, its pocket AmerAC, Access Fund and other environmentalist controlled mountaineering organizations "
Thanks for your perspective.
Alaska: "Where the odds are good, and the goods are odd"
Visit Doug at DougBuchanan.com to see what I mean...
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 29, 2008 - 07:01pm PT
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About five years back a buddy and I got choppered off a peak in the Sierras after my partner pulled off loose block while downclimbing a crack that fell with him onto a ledge about 10 feet below and landed on his pelvis, breaking it. The block kept rolling off the ledge and went for BIG air while my partner had the presence of mind to do a spread eagle and arrest his fall.
Anyways, after a long, cold, miserable night (especially for him) the following morning a Blackhawk from a Sacramento air base came and plucked us off. During the flight off a crew member told us that they rely on rescues such as ours for realistic training that they usually can't get unless they're in combat.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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May 29, 2008 - 07:32pm PT
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It seems that the free solo guys never need help.
I guess you climb in a more conservative fashion, but then again, some of the free solo stuff on Youtube is just ridiculous.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 29, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
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If I ever got myself into a situation that I could not get myself out of, I'd happily accept the help of others and cover the costs incurred to save my ass.
The mindset where one would expect these costs to be paid for by others is completely foreign to me.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 29, 2008 - 07:44pm PT
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Yooo my good friend Mziebell.....
Thank you.
Indeed, within the normal social bell curve, social climbers are found in the center of the curve, and mountain climbers are found at the odd ends of the curve.
You are most perceptive.
There is a caveat. In Fairbanks Alaska, at the social end of the road, the bell curve is inverted.
As a previous Army helicopter driver, Vietnam veteran with Alaska duty, I can assure you that the drivers and unit commanders crave real rescue missions within what is otherwise an ongoing waste of tax money flying expensive military helicopters for administrative missions of scant military mission training value.
The Park Service never says those words when wailing the need for more fees and more climbing regulations because of "irresponsible" climbers needing rescues. And the American Alpine Club does not genuinely oppose its politically environmentalist colleagues in the Park Service.
For additional perspective, on one moderately entertaining Alaska Range rescue of a climber, the Army helicopter driver and unit commander stated to the volunteer mountain rescue sorts (AlaskanAlpineClub members) in his helicopter: "If any of my guys ever go down in the mountains, I am calling you guys, not the government."
If you ever learn about the ClouserScanlon case, in which the Park Service blocked several civilian initiated rescues for accident victims on Denali, to control the rescue for a budget excuse, as usual, and then willfully conducted no rescue with military helicopters under its command, until people died during the subsequent four days, proven in court, among similar cases, and what happened as a result, you might learn why those odd knowledgeable mountain climbers do not speak highly of the environmentalist controlled American Alpine Club, Access Fund and their ilk who support the Park Service against the actual climbers.
High quality entertainment these humans, odd lot that they are.
Doug
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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May 29, 2008 - 07:54pm PT
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Doug, how long have you been in Fairbanks?
Used to live up there, and I swear that if you don't know someone there, you at least know on of their friends. One degree of separation, though on in a West Virginia kind of way...
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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May 29, 2008 - 08:15pm PT
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Hi Doug,
You said, "The Park Service never says those words when wailing the need for more fees and more climbing regulations because of "irresponsible" climbers needing rescues. That may be true in Alaska but has not been my experience in the Lower 48. I cannot recall any NPS official ever recommending more regulation because "climbers needed rescues".
In fact, I have found most NPS employees are remarkably friendly towards climbers and climbing, often offering climbers considerable latitude - far beyond what is offered to the general public. I know that there are some complaints about NPS park rangers on this forum. But when you look at the lack of regulations around climbing in most NPS areas I think you have to be impressed. I would draw your attention to Ranger Jesse McGahey's remarks in the "El Cap Permits" thread right now on Supertopo as an example of this attitude. Climbers are widely perceived within the NPS as being quite far towards the responsible user end of the impact spectrum.
Your comments are interesting, but I don't think they help with creating an attitude of open and creative discussion with land managers. Your blanket statements about the AAC, NPS and Access Fund are way off base and very much misrepresent the hard work of individuals in those organizations.
Martin
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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May 29, 2008 - 09:54pm PT
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Helicopter driver. I would have thought that pilot was a more appropriate term.
Doug Buchanan (good Scottish name), it sounds like you'd be happy to see Alaska secede from the Union.
Skipt makes some very good and valid points.
And I also agree that it is rubbish that climbers in the UK almost bankrupt the RAF. Seriously Majid, where did you dig that one up.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 29, 2008 - 11:33pm PT
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My good Supertopo colleagues.....
I first showed up in Alaska in 73. Got a few more routes to do. Know a few people. May not remember their names. Deal with concepts, not names.
Fairbanks climbers formed the Alaskan Alpine Club in 79, when the Park Pigs formally proposed, ON RECORD, the most severe climbing regulations in the US, that would have shut down most of the climbing in all the new National Parks summarily seized by Jimmy the Preacher.
Maybe they were just nice guys using the dishonest old tactic of intentionally threatening the worst so they could back off and say they were nice guys by imposing only half the worst. Many malicious, costly government tactics impress people who ask no questions. The Park Pigs paid themselves well during the resulting process that proved their intent. The climbers were not paid to defend climber rights and freedom. The AmerAC was FORMALLY supporting the Park Service, ON RECORD, against the climbers. The Alaskan Alpine Club came up with scarce money to send a person to Washington DC, twice during that political fight, the only climbing club in the US defending climber rights in Alaska.
Dishonest people are not nice guys, recognized by honest people but not dishonest people.
All the good you do can never excuse a single wrong, or the bank robber could donate some money to charity and have pro-Park Service sorts advocating his pursuits.
I have chit-chatted with many Park Pigs, some who did not recognize me at the time. I know how to sound like one of their government ilk, having had a couple government jobs. They have often stated that they use the good-guy bad-guy routine to fool fools into perceiving that the Park rangers are good guys, easily done among those who are impressed with government titles, and ask no effective questions. It is one of the most common routines among police fooling gullible people.
If you need a displayed attitude of cooperating with mental midget government thugs, who could not recognize an unlawful order or criminal violation of Constitutional rights if you handed them a dictionary, instead of displaying plain verifiable truth, enjoy your Nazi or George Bush styled Police State protecting you from the people who ask questions and thus learn more knowledge. As a human, did you want to learn more knowledge, or just do as you are told by that idiot Bush and this thugs? What is the nature of mountain climbers?
The laws and lawful authority to impose the laws are not what police and lawyers say. They are what is written on paper, and only then the prevailing laws (about 15 percent of all laws). Learn the easy process of prevailing law or be made a fool of by government, lawyers and organization leaders kowtowing to ignorance.
Do not wonder why common-sense people are amused with the common cowardly begging for rights which have therefore been rendered into deniable privileges. The act of asking permission is the lawful act of surrendering a right. Government power (instead of individual reasoning) is dependent upon an ignorant society, perhaps yours.
If any climber in the US has not heard how the Park Service got into the budget-lucrative climber rescue business, claiming that the Park Service must rescue climbers, progressively disadvantaging and ultimately outlawing most genuine volunteer rescue groups of actual climbers, they are Park Service personnel, AmerAC or Access Fund members, or those who immediately believed the Bush propaganda that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
Why, in face of their members, supporters and the US climbers they claim to represent having to pay a $200 tax to climb Denali, which the Park Service has formally stated on record as NOT paying for rescues, while commonly intelligent people who simply learn the prevailing law and its simple process, do not have to pay, have not the Access Fund and AmerAC asked the Park Service ON RECORD, as a formal question from their organizations, if Americans hold a RIGHT to walk on public land, even after the Alaskan Alpine Club has periodically sent the question to them, including this example if you wish to send it to them, for the club's amusement with unquestioning people who follow dishonest leaders and government thugs, and say how nice they are?
Well, why? Simple question. Perhaps you fear the knowledge created by questions, as do the dumbed-down Americans.
The laughably pitiable senior National Park Pig who arrested me in Rainier National Park (Washington), verifiably for my politely asking certain questions about climbing regulations, on a tape recorder, stated: "We can arrest you for virtually anything. Its true."
Enjoy your Police State, comrades. Your turn has been scheduled if you do not sufficiently kowtow to stupidity or learn new knowledge. What is the nature of real mountain climbers?
When we learned the process to easily make Alaska an independent nation back in the early 90's, we laughed robustly. Plain boring paperwork process, against which there is no defense. Might take 30 days, but if we do nothing, and keep drinking fine wine, the feds will collapse their lawless DemocanRepublicrat war Regime on schedule. Why so soon ruin the best national comedy, being enjoyed by people around the world?
No human holds the ability to sustain a contradiction, or the myriads of compounded contradictions piled up by the ignorant feds. All Police States doom themselves, by design of the human mind craving the freedom to make its own decisions.
Many airplane pilots consider themselves pilots. It is just a vehicle driving job. Wise to use no terms that socially flatter oneself or others, to more thoroughly recognize the single design of the human mind merely learning different knowledge, none greater than the other. Who is smarter or more socially elite when the car breaks down on a back road in the middle of the desert, the brain surgeon or the grease monkey?
Enjoy the show, especially that of my good friends who kowtow to other adults, apparently perceiving that the dolts with government jobs somehow hold a superior design of human mind, and must be obeyed, not questioned, much to the amusement of the observers.
Or so I might imagine.
Doug
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billisfree
Mountain climber
Portland, OR
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May 30, 2008 - 09:28am PT
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Making people pay for their rescues... would make then think twice before calling for help. Thus they might increase their risks by not aksing for help.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2008 - 10:24am PT
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mt10910 said: "oh and yes self-rescue is discouraged in the N.P.S."
You are totally full of sh'it with that statement.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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May 30, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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I've heard of a few instances of Harrison Ford piloting his personal helicopter for a mission or two.
Imagine getting a fuel bill from Hans Solo--hehe.
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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May 30, 2008 - 01:36pm PT
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"If any climber in the US has not heard how the Park Service got into the budget-lucrative climber rescue business, claiming that the Park Service must rescue climbers, progressively disadvantaging and ultimately outlawing most genuine volunteer rescue groups of actual climbers, they are Park Service personnel, AmerAC or Access Fund members, or those who immediately believed the Bush propaganda that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction."
the budget-lucrative climber rescue business, ?????
Hey Werner: YOSAR is swimming in bucks from climber rescues, huh?
Well, Doug you've almost got me pegged there: Ex-Park Service (SAR no less), AAC and Access Fund Member (From time to time when I can afford it), Bush Iraq war supporter ('fraid not...).
"volunteer rescue groups of actual climbers" Outstanding folks who are welcome at most rescues I've been a part of.
Doug, you sure do have axe to grind don't you? I'm curious, what's your story?
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 30, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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Jfs,
Thanks for the clear concise data based information about the reality of climbing rescues. They are a definitely a low percentage of rescue costs here. They are usually quick, and require a relatively few number of rescuers.
The NPS position of not charging folks for a rescue has been a long time policy. A lot of people believe that if the person being rescued is particularly negligent they should be charged. If we start making that argument, any government sponsored benefits could be called into question. For example, "Why should the government pay for patients in critical condition with advanced stages of lung cancer, when they have been lifetime smokers?"
Mr. Doug Buchanan,
Let me remind you:
In Yosemite,
1.) Wilderness Permits have always been free.
2.) In many cases. Climbers enjoy more freedom and less regulation than other user groups. They don't have to get permits for overnight wilderness trips. They can place permanent anchors, leave fixed ropes (temporarily), establish their own trails, "garden or clean" routes, and rig slack-lines pretty much where ever they choose, etc.
3.) The AAC and the Access Fund have helped coordinate clean-up events, bring visitor programs, save Camp 4 from being razed, sponsor trail rehabilitation days, Climber's Coffee, worked hard to protect climber's rights to access, and consistently been involved with the NPS and other public land managers for the collective interest of climbers...even folks like you who don't support them. Have you done anything to help climber's since 1979?
I'm curious what your goal is in researching/advocating obscure conspiracies, and then presenting them on a thread about rescue costs? Are you a man of action or someone who just likes building his web-page and spraying to whomever will listen about how the "powers that be/Police State" are all out to destroy us? Should we pretty much sit around and wait for dooms day because it is going to happen no matter what? Once again, isn't this a discussion about rescue costs?
As for "the budget-lucrative climber rescue business,"
Yep, that's how I paid for my $1000 1985 Toyota Van. Its cherry with only 140,000 miles. Thank god we try so hard to force rescues on people. If not I'd still be on my bike.
Are you kidding me?
If you can make it down to the Facelift this year I'd love to sit down and have a beer and talk about some of these subjects.
Sincerely,
Jesse McGahey
Yosemite Climbing Ranger
jessemcgahey@nps.gov
(209) 372-0360
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HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
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May 30, 2008 - 06:22pm PT
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Thanks Jesse, that one made me laugh. Good to know the Yosemite Climbing Ranger is more of "our" Climbing Ranger.
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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May 30, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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When's the Facelift Jesse?
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 30, 2008 - 07:16pm PT
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Of the dumbed-down Americans, the government folks are the classics, of all governments, like I once was when I told people that if we lost the Vietnam war the world would fall to communism. We lost the war.
Compare the specific words used by government sorts, to fool themselves into believing that citizens said what the government sorts accuse them of saying, to notice how government sorts fool themselves.
As I have often uploaded, there are no conspiracies. And I suggested none on this website. So why would Jesse the Park Ranger state: "I'm curious what your goal is in researching/advocating obscure conspiracies,...", if not to fool himself (easily done)?
As known to fundamentally dishonest and ignorant people, if the facts support your case, use the facts. If they disprove your case, attack the credibility of the person offering the facts.
Conspiracies are contradictions attempted by two or more people, a fool's pursuit since humans hold no ability to sustain a contradiction, by design of the human mind, a contradiction identification and resolution device.
Notice the words of Jesse McGahey the Park Ranger. Because government is based on force rather than reasoning, its personnel must invent rhetorical illusions to keep fooling its unquestioning personnel. Pity them. They remain comically ignorant.
Like the needless Park Service rescue administration budgets, highly lucrative to the bureaucracy at great tax payer expense, the "free" wilderness permits and current presidential ego gratification wars, etceteras, constitute excuses to tax people more and create a wealthier, more powerful central authority, always with more police to arrest those people who do not get the permits that change nothing on the land.
In Denali National Park it is a punishable violation of regulations to rescue a fellow climber without first notifying the Park Service. That is how stupid and malicious Park Rangers are. They spend their time flattering themselves and defending their power, rather than resolving their glaring contradictions. If one park is currently playing the good guy, with "free" permits, the Park Rangers point to it, instead of their other costly maliciousness. If you pay taxes, those permits and their paper shuffling bureaucracy are not free, a concept vastly beyond the understanding of Park rangers.
Like all power-based bureaucracies, the AmerAC and Access Fund spent the maximum amount of money donated by gullible climbers, to primarily flatter themselves and the Park Service for the process to sustain the existence of Camp 4 (a Park Service invented scam as proven by the results), that could have been effected with one certified letter including certain questions for record. Since then they and the Park Service have continued to laud themselves for the lucrative scam, fooling themselves and other fools.
The first Park Service budget request for mountain rescue activities on Mt. Rainier was discovered on record as based on the per hour time of the rangers back at headquarters monitoring the volunteer rescue groups on the mountain, plus the per hour time of the volunteers if they had been Park Service personnel. The funding request did not mention the volunteers, and implied the costs as current Park Service expenses. After they got the funding from an unquestioning congress, their inherently incompetent park rangers took over the rescues and annually scammed larger budgets.
Park Service and all other government agency budgets are based on the same type lies George uses to fund his current wars.
Enjoy the show. Oh, if you are a Park Ranger or military sort, quit your job so you do not remain as stupid was I when I believed rather than ASKED QUESTIONS of the glaring lies of government. The designed ability of your brain is worth no less. Leave the government with those it deserves.
And the Alaskan Alpine Club (the other UIAA member in the US) has achieved much for climbers. Let me know if you ever want to have a related chit chat with the AmerAC, Access Fund and Park Service dolts who cannot face the questions the AknAC has asked. Why would any human fear any inherently harmless question?
Doug
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 30, 2008 - 07:28pm PT
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Martin, the 2008 Yosemite FaceLift is September 24th - 28th. See http://yosemiteclimbing.org/index.html for more.
If you'll be there and are helping, there's some (free) camping - contact Chicken Skinner (Ken Y) about this asap at yager(at)inreach.com
Many SuperTopians attend and help, and camp together at Yellow Pines, a group camp site. Last year there was a SushiFest on the Tuesday night preceding the official Wednesday start, and some other informal ST activities, in addition to all the evening events at the FaceLift.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 30, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
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Oh, MZiebell.....
When I need to sharpen an axe, I grind it, quite logically.
When I notice a contradiction, I ask questions designed to resolve the contradiction. That is the process to advance one's knowledge.
Government folks and other institutionally power-damaged minds fear questions, and therefore quickly suggest the grinding of axes, conspiracies and other rhetorical illusions to avoid resolving their contradictions since government creates rather than resolves contradictions, by design.
The most advanced outdoor activity rescue process was that created by mountain climbers, because only climbers were capable of functioning where climbers go.
So how, by line-item events, did the National Park Service, insatiably desperate for more money, take-over mountain rescue activities at great tax payer cost, against the objections of climbers?
Does the question constitute grinding an axe, or asking a question?
If you use words that hold their meanings, you will learn much.
And have fun doing that.
Doug
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 30, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
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Doug's posts are getting a little wolfish, if you know what I mean.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 30, 2008 - 07:56pm PT
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"So how, by line-item events, did the National Park Service, insatiably desperate for more money, take-over mountain rescue activities at great tax payer cost, against the objections of climbers?
Does the question constitute grinding an axe, or asking a question?
I would say they it involves perhaps more axe grinding then really asking a question. Your tone of voice and your choice of words convey this. Plus you have prejudgement in the question.
Just my dumb downed american tax paying 2 cents.
John
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 30, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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Yoooo John my good friend.....
Having wisely answered the question before I uploaded it, with an answer verifiably sustainable against all questions, the prejudgment you suggest is actually the answer, precisely what you would want of any question, and certainly not what you would attempt to discredit before you discover the answer by any means, unless you were attempting to defend the use of government power that can never tolerate questions of its contradictions.
Asking and answering questions is referenced as reasoning. Evading questions, and imposing damaging contradictions by force is referenced as the corruption of power.
If somebody asked the questions you needed to hear and answer to save your life, defend your rights, reduce your wasted taxes or other benefit to you, in an axe grinding tone of voice or otherwise not of your mind's trained comfort, would you answer the questions or ignore them because of their PERCEIVED nature?
Well?
If commonly intelligent people were to believe the government, rather than question its incessant and obvious lies upon which its power over other people is dependent, you would still perceive that your country's king was a divine entity, under threat of jail or worse.
Are you not fortunate that the people who ask and answer questions, regardless of their uncomfortable nature, and thus advance human knowledge, are amused by the government sorts who sustain their ignorance by denigrating questions rather than answering them?
No real mountain climber will accept a job as a National Park Service mountaineering ranger whose primary job is to arrest climbers who damage nobody or nothing, but refuse to comply with the Park Service paperwork idiot drills because they are a waste of tax money and infringe on individual rights, and who then fool fools with their claims of helping the climbers.
The nature of real climbers is that of seeking harmless freedom beyond the useless strictures of idiots in government, even at obvious risk to themselves.
Left with police mentality personnel who are inherently incompetent at what they claim to do, by design of those who attempt to make other people's decisions for them, and impose those decisions with force, the Park Service mountaineering rangers are one of the best learning examples for the results of asking no questions of authority.
So precisely how did the Park Service seize mountain rescue activities, at great taxpayer cost, over the intensive objections of the many volunteer mountain rescue groups, of real climbers happy to rescue their colleagues at no taxpayer cost?
Or should climbers not ask such questions, and instead remain as ignorant as Park Service rangers?
Well?
Doug
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 31, 2008 - 12:03am PT
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Hey Doug,
I live on private property surrounded on all sides by a national park. More then once the park has tried to force people out through the use of the law of imminent domain. They used what many would consider to be underhanded methods to get people to sign away their property for very low prices. Scare tactics such as telling a person they would get nothing if they didn't hurry and sign over their property. Many people succumbed to the pressure, but a few didn't and sued. They won.
I have lived in this community for 20 years and have had to deal with the park service on a number of issues. I understand that they can be a ponderous and seemingly truculent force to deal with. In fact I would say that I am very aware of this issue.
Yet I also know that the government is made up of individuals and those individuals can be held accountable and they can change and they can be influenced. Is this easy? hahaha....I think you know the answer to that.
Earlier you asked...
"Does the question constitute grinding an axe, or asking a question?'
I answered you as best I could. I think you have an axe to grind and don't really want an answer to your question. Your language leads me to believe that you either just want to pick a fight, or you want to try and show how superior your thinking is. Neither of these attitudes leads to any sort of cohesive dialog. This is of course just my opinion.
You seem to act as though park service employees should be saints and answer your questions no matter how you ask them. Perhaps they should behave like saints, but then perhaps so should you.
I simply recognize they they aren't saints and neither am I. So if I really want an answer, then I try not to attack with my tone of voice. Sometimes I fail at this, (you might have noticed some of my conversations with LEB ) haha..
As for answering your own questions. Then why ask the question. It appears you didn't want an answer, you just wanted to state your opinion and therefore you shouldn't expect anyone, including those saints in park service, to answer you. As you really didn't ask a question, you stated an opinion.
Certainly ask all the questions you want and especially ask the tough questions, but I can not agree with you that answering your own questions will somehow lead to a solution. That isn't a question. It is an opinion. You don't seem to want to know how someone thinks. You appear to want to tell them how and what to think. That isn't dialog and it certainly doesn't amount to a question, even if phrased in the form of a question.
I hope you will think about this as it doesn't seem that you have been successful with your dialog with the park service.
John,
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 31, 2008 - 12:11am PT
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Doug,
After reading through all of your posts I have come to the only reasonable and logical conclusion about the pieced together disconnected arguments you are attempting to convey.
You are writing this stuff purely for the Supertopian's enjoyment and comic relief.
This may be my favorite phrase, " the "free" wilderness permits and current presidential ego gratification wars," So, free wilderness permits are part of the same master plan to oppress and deceive the innocent American people as the Iraq war?
Wow, where do you come up with such brilliance? Better than Al Franken, David Letterman, or any other comedian I can think of.
To bring back the relevant issues of the thread:
As jfs noted,
"Nationally, Rock Climbing and Mountaineering account for 3.3% and 1.8% of all NPS rescues. Day hiking comes in at 30.6%, Motorized Boating at 21.9%, Swimming at 13.7%, Overnight hiking at 10.4% (2003 data)
"Climbers also pose less of a fiscal drain on the public than other recreational groups needing rescue, because their rescues utilize a much higher proportion of volunteer labor than do rescues for other commonly rescued groups."
Maybe the day hikers and motorized boaters of the world should be the ones to really get upset about the lucrative budgets of publicly funded rescue teams. According to the statistics its their rescues that are driving the "highly lucrative rescue administration budget".
Just a couple thoughts, but I've been brainwashed so what could I know.
Cheers,
Jesse
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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May 31, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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mt10910: "Ranger Rick (who are you referring to? Jesse?) "can I hire my own helicopter to rescue me on elcap or do I have to use the park service's, service? seems to me if the park serivce encouraged self-rescue then I should be able to hire my own rescue or have my friends with a heli rescue me".
"Hire your own rescue"? What does that mean? You've got friends with a helo who are willing to ferry rescuers to the top of El Cap? Who? And what rescuers? It seems like you misunderstand some of the logistics, mechanics and economics involved.
Are you really proposing that climbers always effect their own rescues on El Cap and elsewhere? That's laudable...and completely unrealistic. Just look around at some of the threads right here on supertopo. Climbers relate how they told themselves they would never call for a rescue only to be humbled by conditions or debilitating injuries. And those folks have usually (always?) been appreciative of the efforts put forth by dedicated rescuers.
Do those rescuers always have to be agency personnel? Not always. But there's a point at which it is unrealistic - and probably unwise - to expect climbers with limited medical and rigging experience to effect complex rescues. That's where the cool mesh of climbers and agency personnel can happen - and does. Look at the SAR sites in Yosemite. The Tetons. Denali, Rainer, Devils Tower, Zion, Joshua Tree, Rocky Mountain, Big Bend, Glacier: NPS managed areas where climbers and NPS personnel work hand-in-hand to pull off amazing rescues. Routinely!
Look, every year there are injured climbers who get themselves off walls and mountains without ever asking for help from "the authorities". And most of the time they do a great job of it and everyone is psyched for them. And for those times when they can't, I've found they're pretty excited to see the mixed agency/climber teams who show up to assist.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 31, 2008 - 01:40am PT
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Good questions.
I will ask some of my own of you.
If you allow helicopter rescues in the park, who determines when they are needed? The person being rescued? Because I could see some rich dude climbing McKinley and then calling for a rescue just because he could afford it and didn't want to hike back, or was a little cold, or just wanted some hot coffee.
Anyone for Starbucks?
Or how about this, one family has some funds and wants little johnny plucked off the mountain cause he called and said he was cold and scared. So they hire a chopper but the chopper crashes cause the chopper pilot didn't have the necessary training, but he thought he did and convinced the family he did. Who pays to clean up the mess and rescue the downed pilot and crew? What if the family is now out of funds? It is a bit different to leave a downed chopper to rust away on some BLM land where no one hardly ever goes, it is another thing to leave it on a mountain like McKinley.
Just sayin is all.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho
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May 31, 2008 - 01:55am PT
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Y'know , the hospital tried to charge me with helicopter costs,after my rescue & I decided that if they haD left me there with a sack & a couple days water, I'd been no worse off. Passing monkeys can & will do a stitch or two for you; They are your people, after all.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 31, 2008 - 02:08am PT
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Much can be learned from comparing the comments of one person, with the responses of another.
All human-caused problems result from the failure to adequately communicate.
If a question is asked, it seeks an answer, by definition. To suggest that the questioner does not want an answer, as a defense against answering it, is to maintain one's ignorance and define one as not having learned the utility of language or communication.
A statement, made or heard, causes very little thinking process in the human mind. In contrast, a question causes more thinking process in the mind, if the mind answers the question rather than flees it.
Did you want to advance your thinking process, within the competitive human species predicated on the thinking ability of its mind, to advance your knowledge, or remain as ignorant as those who simply believe the laughably ignorant government dolts who flee all effective questions?
It does not matter if the asker wants or needs an answer. If you answer every question you ever encounter, you will advance your knowledge beyond those who flee questions. It is YOUR intelligence that you are advancing, not that of the guy who asked the question.
I owe you no answers because I have made no demands on you. But the Park Service exists on making demands on people, and is paid by their money, so it lawfully owes an answer for every citizen question of Park Service contradictions. That does not require a saint. It requires a person of sufficient intelligence to understand the preceding sentence, and plain honesty. Intelligent and honest people will not work for the Park Service, as proven by the simple questions they consistently refuse to answer after accepting the benefit (salary) for the performance of their duties to the public.
The object of an effective question to a power-damaged mind is not to get an answer, or the question would be worthless, but to identify the questions the government dolts refuse to answer when they hold the paid duty to do so. The answer immediately becomes obvious to any thinking person, while the government chaps sustain their ignorance.
Because the Park Pigs issue tens of thousands of fraudulent citations every year, for their insatiable taxation by citation program, fraudulent under prevailing law, you can use them to have fun asking the questions they and those they fool, the type questions that advance the knowledge of the other SuperTopo readers who think about the questions.
And Jesse my friend, consider your question..."So, free wilderness permits are part of the same master plan to oppress and deceive the innocent American people as the Iraq war?"
Wise to have asked the question rather than have made such a dumb statement.
The answer is, Not to my knowledge, because humans are not sufficiently intelligent to create such master plans. When you extrapolate your comments into absurdities, you identify yourself as one who extrapolates their comments into absurdities.
It is not a master plan. It is the effects of power-damaged minds who perceive that they can fool all of the people all of the time. Tax paid wilderness permits, which are permission to exercise a right, which is a contradiction of terms and an unlawful demand, based on lies, are effected by the same process of lying that effects wars, fooling fools. The commonality is the perception that power can prevail against reasoning (questioning) in the human species predicated on the reasoning ability of the mind.
Because questions to people who do not think enough to answer questions are mere entertainment, perhaps this will assist you. In the future when fewer Americans are fooled by the current lot of lying government dolts and their unthinking supporters, as with every power-based empire, society will no longer pay extra taxes for unquestioning and thus ignorant Park Service rangers, for mountain rescues, when volunteer rescue groups of actual climbers will do the work at no tax cost. MZiebell's praising of the tax paid agencies ignores the many cases of deadly Park Service incompetence and negligence that is getting worse because they cannot answer the type questions that advance their knowledge.
Until then, enjoy the grand comedy of those who so noticeably remain ignorant and self-fooled by not answering questions. That is their value to society.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 31, 2008 - 02:29am PT
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And if self-rescue or exclusive volunteer rescue groups could create problems, then because Park Service sorts come from the same population pool, precisely why do the Park Service sorts not as often suggest that Park Service rescues could create problems, if not because their power-damaged minds were trained to perceive that the agency can do no wrong, and they are so ignorant of the process to question contradictions that they cannot identify questions such as this?
The Denali National Park chief mountaineering ranger who blocked the civilian rescue efforts in the Clouser-Scanlon case was promoted to Superintendent, instead of fired and convicted of manslaughter or murder.
There is no such thing as power that does not corrupt. Fools praise those who use power instead of the reasoning effected by answering questions.
Humans, the best comedy on the rock.
Doug
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho
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May 31, 2008 - 02:31am PT
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I always used to joke that they could 'rescue' anyone , anytime....we have trank rifles, after all...
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 31, 2008 - 04:55am PT
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Consider the nature of climbers and environmentalists, in regard to mountain rescues.
Referenced above is the University of Alaska's alpine club, with an amusing history of back and forth take-overs by bird watchers, environmentalists and climbers.
Since the club was again taken over by environmentalists at an election meeting loaded with non-climber Northern Environmental Center people, to support the Park Service against the climbers during the Alaska Lands Act debates, and the climbers therefore formed their own Alaskan Alpine Club, the environmentalists continued teaching a University sponsored climbing class that did not produce a single member for the local mountain rescue group. They supported dependence on tax paid Park Service rescues (adults needing a parent).
The University club organized other University funded efforts to disadvantage the local mountain rescue group whose existence embarrassed their Park Service-dependence teachings, much to the amusement of the climbers. They are environmentalists supporting their god-figure National Park Service.
Their tax subsidized efforts in a small community of climbers were eventually successful as the climbers who had learned individual responsibility aged out of the activity. The knowledge of individual responsibility is hated by government personnel whose jobs are dependent upon being the parent for dumbed-down adults.
Most amusing and indicative, while the Alaska Alpine Rescue Group of actual climbers has not existed for years, the University club website still states that it still exists, despite their club officers having been repeatedly informed that it does not exist. How difficult can it be to tell such a simple truth that new climbers would want to know? The environmentalists are dependent upon sustaining illusions to fool fools. If their members are fooled into believing that somebody is there to save them, they will have no incentive to ask the obvious questions.
The dependence on lies inherently escalates the lies since truth destroys all that is built on the first lie.
The story of responsible mountain climbers and their volunteer mountain rescue groups overtly or functionally usurped or destroyed by government for its insatiable quest for more excuses for more taxes for more government power, is a classic.
When the contradictions effect their own inherent collapse, the mountain climbers after that will marvel at how gullible the American mountain climbers became, much to the amusement of the observers.
Oh, and if you are a University of Alaska climbing class student, start asking some questions, or do not be surprised if you get in trouble in the mountains, and the people coming to help you are not real climbers, as was the case with three previous class members who therefore died.
Doug
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