Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
May 20, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
|
Whats wrong with climbing routes more then once to try and climb it faster or in better style? That is what you'd consider "rehearsing" right? I do it pretty much every time I go climb my favorite routes...
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
May 20, 2005 - 08:13pm PT
|
I understand why you guys don't like people putting down what you do...But why do you guys have to put the way other people find joy in climbing efficiently to make your point?
Rehersing can be high impact, or it can be pretty minimal. So long as it's minimal, why do you guys care if the other media studs want to rehearse for their speed climbs?
IMO, the only thing that is truly bad style is doing something that botches someone else's experience or the environment. This probably includes more common practices of the free climbing superheros than the speed/efficiency gurus...although some people wear both hats.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
|
May 20, 2005 - 09:13pm PT
|
Hi,
Great thread Ammon, and I appreciate flyin Brian’s comments. You guys touched on this a bit and I agree that the main difference between trying something in a day onsite as opposed to rehearsing is the unknown and adventure factors. I did the NIAD yrs ago and followed that with the Salathe in a Day. I had never climbed El Cap before. The NIAD took two tries but the following year we walked up to the Salathe and climbed it onsite in a day. That was highly adventurous for us and remains perhaps my most memorable climb. Based upon the Topo’s and my experience as a climber on other walls in the US, I had no doubt that I could climb El Cap by these routes. I did wonder what doing the sucker in a day was going to be like. Would I get wigged out on exposure? What if a storm came in and we had to bail? Did I have the physical endurance to keep climbing for 20 hours? This style of climbing introduces a whole lot of unknowns, even with the best beta. Climbers don’t have to perform at your level to try and up their own adventure level, they can do it themselves by choosing to climb things onsite and in better style. I have no problem with the flip side of climbing the Nose a few times to get it dialed before doing it in a day, I personally do not have the perseverance for it nor the time. My partner and I knew we were not going to break any records, any competition going on was completely towards achieving our own goals seeing if we could do something that seemed so improbable for us.
As far as the powers that be, the Hubers time was an incredible athletic feat. I agree that the adventure level was way lower, but the press and glitz level was high. I would’nt worry too much about the lack of a golden piton. You guys are doing some amazing stuff.
Bode Miller, the greatest ski racer in the World (this year) was interviewed for Newsweek. He said he used his first world championship medal as a “weight to stabilize a wobbly toilet seat”. He said he didn’t ski for the medals, he could “go steal somebodys”. He ski raced because he loves it. I suspect that is why most of us climb. I wonder if there are golden pitons on ebay? Damn, everyone that has climbed El Cap should have one!
Gary
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
|
May 20, 2005 - 09:42pm PT
|
Ok TomTom, either you’re trying to troll me or you really don’t know. I don’t rehearse. I don’t do them all onsight but I NEVER go up on a wall in the intention of leaving gear, water, etc. for a later ascent.
Some people do “rehearse” (Brian and I had a good laugh at that one) but it’s considered VERY poor style..... unless you are working the route for a free ascent.
what exactly do you mean by that?
considered poor style to whom?
IMO, what an elite climber might have to do to truely push themself does not change the scale for a regular joe.
lots of climbers whose goal it might be to send some route in a day (or in daylight or whatever) might not have the skill or experience to blitz the route onsight. i have talked to countless guys who've rehearsed the nose up through some midpoint in order to get the route done in a day, and i don't think it's a poor style at all. is it as proud as doing it onsight? obviously not, but that might be the only way it's gonna happen for someone who gets in one tenth the days that you might get in a year.
everything is a sliding scale on the rock, and "what is rad" is whatever is rad to whomever is doing it. any other scale is just an extrapolation of the 5.18 media driven hot-flash culture that makes those magazines so unappealing to the average climber.
those hubers get gold pitons for selling mags, and that's what that's all about, it's like the gear guide for rockstars.
|
|
bringmedeath
climber
la la land
|
|
|
May 20, 2005 - 10:12pm PT
|
Ammon we all know the most effective climbing is done while downing OE800!
|
|
Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2005 - 09:03am PT
|
"Any competition going on was completely towards achieving our own goals seeing if we could do something that seemed so improbable for us.
Nice Gary!! This was the whole reason I started timing myself.... to see if I was getting more efficient.
"considered poor style to whom?"
By ME and BRIAN!!!
Actually, Brian disagreed with me, he said it's not poor style..... it just doesn't even count.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
|
May 21, 2005 - 01:51pm PT
|
maybe you are missing my point?
it may indeed "not count" to you or some other badass famous guy who is out setting speed records and whatnot, but when joe climber is out there trying to be as fast and efficient as possible (and may even be doing so without a watch), and they aren't experienced enough to complete a route onsight in a single push, then some rehersal is a common and typical method for breaking into that kind of effort.
and i doubt joe even cares if you or anyone else thinks it "counts".
it seems obvious that it would be a different category of speed ascent if you were climbing onsight, vs rehearsed or otherwise being familiar w/ the route, but you don't need to diss joe to make that clear.
|
|
Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2005 - 10:26pm PT
|
Matt, I am NOT dissing Joe. Hey, I AM Joe in a lot of different areas in life.
Sorry that my limited time right now is making me INEFFICIENT with my thoughts.
Brian and I are talking about climbing in a style that paves a way for future climbing.
YES Matt, that's how you learn, have fun and be more efficient.... we all had to learn at one point.
Cheers!!!
|
|
bigwalling
climber
|
|
|
May 21, 2005 - 11:19pm PT
|
Ammon... this is sorta disturbing... at first I thought is was a picture of puke or something.
|
|
thebleeder
climber
chosstown
|
|
|
May 22, 2005 - 12:34am PT
|
yeah, ammon why you gotta diss me?
(heh)
|
|
Dudley
Big Wall climber
Lexington, KY
|
|
|
May 23, 2005 - 10:03am PT
|
I'm going to try to be respectful__ah, f*#k it!
Ammon, You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. This is not directed
towards you.
Brian,
Let me get to the meat of it:
[on Jeff Achey] “the first thing that came to my mind when I heard that was that
you guys were just quickly smashing your way up the route and funking the beaks
out and consequently damaging all the placements as you went”. “Did you do
that?"
Do you really think he got to where he is by saying that type of sh#t? I would
be curious to hear his version of the quote.
"My little kind introduction had quickly turned into a full frontal assault."
Pretty sensitive for a guy who climbs A5.
"Bridwell tells me the definition of adventure is when the outcome is unknown.
May I be,"so bold as to ask," are you comparing yourself to Brdiwell? He doesn't
just climb in sunny weather you know.
"We have begun to prove that many of America’s most DIFFICULT faces can be
climbed “alpine” or “speed” style with a day pack."
Proving things is always the right thing to do. More than that, you have proved
on like 10 faces in 3 states. "Americas" is a pretty broad term don't cha
think?
I think there have been some excellent climbers who have climbed walls fast
before “us” and there will be more “after us.”
Yes! But many less vocal than you.
"I feel that what Ammon and I have done on El Cap and in Zion in the last 5
years has definitely been a significant progression in wall climbing"
Congratulations and good job - for real on that one.
"and I may be so bold to say that the skill that we have demonstrated is
“unprecedented” "
no, no you may not. Let's not beat our chest? What about the poor, unsponsored,
dudes from Russia, Poland, and Chechz Rep. They kill harder routes onsite, FA,
in a push, on real mountains. You don't hear them pulling their own chains do
you?
"Thanks to so many in the general climbing public who have expressed respect."
Do you really need respect to fill the void in your life? What happened to the
"because it is fun" attitude? This type of rant exacts no respect.
“I’ll meet you in the middle of the night in the middle of el cap on hour 20 and
see who’s left standing!”
Ok tough guy. Besides soundling like an neanderthal, Bridwell would meet you on
the Mooses Tooth at night, Viesters would meet you high on Everest with no
oxegen at midnight, and 3 dozen sherpa would carry 200lbs over your dead body
halfway to K2 on a full moon/ I would not want to meet you personally. You
kind of sound like a self-righteous as#@&%e.
"basically unrecognized and unrewarded by the powers that be."
Why do you climb again? For rewards because I thought that you made a point to
say that you climbed for the experience? No matter what you come back with, you
know you just proved that everyone craves attention. Do you really need a
reward for climbing that beautiful stone? Who hoo! I made the craptastic pages
of Climbing Magazine. Everyone look at me.
I just heard the Huber’s got a golden piton for climbing Zodiac!
Good for them. At least they aren't whining about what they haven't gotten, who
f*#ked them over, or why life sucks so much sometimes. Sounds like somebody
needs a ride in the whaaambulance.
Now, I might be a red neck white trash chicken sh#t motherf*#ker for calling you
out but you need to check yourself. Check your motives. Check your head. What
you do is rad no doubt. The thing that gets me is the hypocrite part? Let's
get it straight. Do you or do you not crave some attention? Are you angry at
the world because someone doesn't give you a reach around once in a while?
F*#king CMac - that guy did what 70 something walls? Instead of bitching about
it he found a way to get paid and give something back. What kind of recognition
are you looking for here? Why haven't you guys traveled out of the country?
WHy do you only climb in sunny CA or Pretty Sunny Utah? While impressive, your
resume lacks adventure to many.
What you need to realize is that no matter how hard you try, no matter what
route you send in a push, there will always be someone faster, doing it in
better style, and most of all hating you for your accomplishments. Embrace what
you do for what it is...a climb. Embrace that you are one of the lucky few who
can do what you do with the short amount of time you have. Embrace that you are
a role model for younger climbers and should be setting a better example.
Like so many in our generation, you expect to be compensated for doing nothing.
What does climbing contribute to the world? What are you personally
contributing? How will being found out by, "the powers that be," conribute to
nothing more than your benefit?
You need to do some soul searching brother. Maybe slowing down on your next EC
trip would do you good for your head. Get back to the reasons you started
climbing.
What a dissapointing role model you turned out to be.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
May 23, 2005 - 11:26am PT
|
Yeah, I thought that Alaskan deal was BMc's first wall or something...
somebody needs to do their homework before pulling the spray trigger.
|
|
tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
|
|
|
May 23, 2005 - 12:45pm PT
|
Ok TomTom, either you’re trying to troll me or you really don’t know. I don’t rehearse. I don’t do them all onsight but I NEVER go up on a wall in the intention of leaving gear, water, etc. for a later ascent.
Ammon,
Nope not trolling you. I think I remember something about extra gear on Zodiac pounded in place to help with speed climbing ascents.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2005 - 01:00pm PT
|
Hows that work? You have to climb it twice? First time to preplace gear and then do your speed thing?
They said all their speed ascents were onsight except one. How would the extra gear pounded in place get there, tomtom?
|
|
flamer
Trad climber
denver
|
|
|
May 23, 2005 - 03:58pm PT
|
Somebody defiantly needs to get their facts straight.
Maybe you should ask Brian about his trips to Alaska...there's been more than 1..and the First(?) was with Bridwell...not his first wall but he was new to the Alpine game...ask him who lend the crux's?? Even burly snow/ice and mixed...with little prior experience(in that world).
Maybe you should ask about his trips to Pakistan?? The FA's he put up in the trango area??
Maybe you should ask him about the big wall comp in europe(russia?)....there's a time he got screwed.
Or maybe you should do some research before going off on a guy who is 10 times the climber most of us will ever be.
Drink some more stump water and think about that...in fact look it all up...you'll be surprised at the things Mr. Mccray hasn't reported to the big time media....
josh
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2005 - 04:39pm PT
|
Ditto on that man!
|
|
Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2005 - 07:36pm PT
|
Hey Dudley,
I'll be the first one to admit that Brian is a bit abrasive. BUT, I think it's a breath of fresh air for someone to be THAT honest in their opinions about the way they feel. There's no need to get angry just because he rubbed you the wrong way. The reason he went off is because of all the grants that were turned down, companies not wanting to help with expeditions, etc.
BTW- He has done a LOT for the climbing community. He has left TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars in the wall for later generations of climbers.
The whole reason I started this topic is because I've heard countless of times "Well, I wouldn't want you to speed climb MY route... because you would f*#k it all up". This is coming from climbers who have put up some sick routes and whom I have the up most respect for.
They just don't understand that we are doing the exact same thing as if we were camping, minus all the bivy gear, extra food, etc. Yes, there are tricks to go faster BUT we are not up there smashing the sh#t out of everything.
Ok, so... I told Brian about this thread and he told me about MANY occasions where he got the same remarks that I've experienced. I highly doubt he will EVER see your post unless I tell him about it. Brian is a VERY ambitious person who doesn't have any time for the virtual campfire.
His intention was to get people riled up. He's a troll and doesn't even know it, haa haa haa.
Flamer is right however. He has done a handful of FA bigwalls in other countries. I, on the other hand, am having trouble getting my passport (Yes, my badboy past has caught up with me). However, this will be changing soon.
Tomtom, I think you are referring to the Huber's ascent of the Zodiac. They had pre-placed gear but it was placed there from working on the route to free climb it. The speed climb was an afterthought.
Yes, all but one ascent that Brian and I did were onsight (for him). BUT, I have climbed some of the routes before. Also, I have climbed "push style" with other partners that were not onsight. Usually, when I was learning the ropes and camping on them.
Get out there and have fun guys.... no matter which style you are climbing in. It's just plain FUN to be there.
Cheers, Ammon
|
|
tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
|
|
|
May 23, 2005 - 07:53pm PT
|
Tomtom, I think you are referring to the Huber's ascent of the Zodiac. They had pre-placed gear but it was placed there from working on the route to free climb it. The speed climb was an afterthought.
Yup, that's what I was referring to. I didn't want to accuse anyone of 'bolting' a route without proof. Wasn't a lot of this gear pulled in the Zodiac cleanup?
I thought this thread was about Speedclimbing in general, not about Ammon exclusively.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2005 - 08:01pm PT
|
I ‘m ignorant of what the Hubers did on Zodiac. Did they place extra bolts and gear to make their fast ascents? I thought guys go up there with a rack of sh-it and start climbing their asses off to the top.
Is that how it’s done to go so fast on Zodiac?
|
|
Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2005 - 08:28pm PT
|
"I thought this thread was about Speedclimbing in general, not about Ammon exclusively."
Nice, climbing in an efficient style IS what this thread is about... I guess we got a little side tracked.
Werner, no they didn't place extra bolts. The only bolts that were placed on the route right before going out "The Nipple", you have to lower down to them and they used it for an anchor... so they wouldn't change the wall route.
Their free line is really not even the Zodiac. They started way over to the right of Plastic Surgery Disaster, climbed some into the Zodiac on the 5th pitch, traversed left to Shortest Straw for three or four pitches... back to the Zodiac in the "Grey Circle' then on and off the Zodiac to the summit.
They placed a ton of fixed gear that they used to protect themselves on the free climb. They used the same fixed gear for their speed climb.
They are good friends of mine and I respect what they did but, it's a LOT different than if they would have started the route without pre-placing all that gear.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!