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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2005 - 04:44pm PT
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Hey Bill,
Good to see your post!!! Welcome.
This is exactly the kind of discussion I was trying to invoke. I guess I shouldn’t have named any names when I originally posted my thoughts.
I remember asking Gerberding after he climbed the Dihedral Wall with Hans. “What was it like climbing with Hans”, I asked.
“It was awesome. Hans is an incredible climber”, Steve replied.
I have the utmost respect for Hans and shouldn’t have used him as an example. He climbs at a totally different level than I do, as I do him. I can’t begin to imagine sending some of the routes he has, as fast as he’s done them.
So, I’m still learning the “other” side of push ascents, the side that I’m still new at. Hell, I’m still learning…... Period. It’s good to see other climber’s views on this subject.
Cheers-
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 14, 2005 - 05:23pm PT
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"Ammon .. you should write a how-to guide for efficient wall climbing."
ditto that, money maker for sure and you are a good writter. people are looking for the guidebook that takes them to the next level. which is why the topic is allways coming up on these forums.
you should talk with c-mac about it anyway.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2005 - 05:31pm PT
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Haa ha ha, thanks for the suggestion guys.... but, Hans beat me to it.
http://speedclimb.com/buy/
Maybe he'll give me a chapter in his next edition about "efficient hard-aid".
Cheers-
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Brian
climber
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Jan 14, 2005 - 05:48pm PT
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(1) After all, why would you spend multiple days on a route when you can do it in one?
"Some mountaineers are proud of having done all their climbs without bivouac. How much they have missed! And the same applies to those who enjoy only rock climbing, or only the ice climbs, only the ridges or the faces. We should refuse none of the thousand and one joys that the mountains offer us at every turn. We should brush nothing aside, set no restrictions. We should experience hunger and thirst, be able to go fast, but also know how to go slowly and to contemplate." (Gaston Rebuffat)
(2) Speed climbing = carrying a stopwatch and/or reporting your time on any climb. Efficient climbing = uh, efficient climbing.
(3) Best way to become an efficient climber is to climb with or observe one. I’d been trad climbing for well over 12 years when Kevin Thaw passed me on the Nose (he was doing it in a day with Singer, it was my second wall and I was doing it in something like 3.5 days). Anyhow, after watching Kevin as he climbed past (French free on the RP pitch above Camp 5), I climbed the next 2 or 3 pitches more quickly (combined) than I’d climbed any single pitch up to that point…
Brian
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2005 - 06:05pm PT
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Quote:
(1) After all, why would you spend multiple days on a route when you can do it in one?
"Some mountaineers are proud of having done all their climbs without bivouac. How much they have missed! And the same applies to those who enjoy only rock climbing, or only the ice climbs, only the ridges or the faces. We should refuse none of the thousand and one joys that the mountains offer us at every turn. We should brush nothing aside, set no restrictions. We should experience hunger and thirst, be able to go fast, but also know how to go slowly and to contemplate." (Gaston Rebuffat)
Good point!!
I love camping on walls. I guess I was talking about "MY" personal experience after setting up a portalege over 400 times.... I was ready for something new.
Cheers-
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Mimi
Social climber
Seattle
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Jan 14, 2005 - 10:03pm PT
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I think it's amazing how you guys get up Valley walls so fast and I understand the challenges. But I'm curious about speed climbing in this sense; what impact is speed or efficient climbing having on the size of the pin scars? It seems to me that the ultimate challenge for you guys would be clean aid or hammerless speed ascents. Is this type of climbing in your future?
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2005 - 10:23pm PT
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Hey Mimi,
This is exactly my point. Most people think we're up there thrashing the hell out of the rock.
I think speed ascents actually have LESS impact than camping on the wall. I will bang in a pin (if that's what the placement takes) while camping on the wall just the same as if I were on a push ascent.
I ALWAYS use a clean placement if I think one can work. Nailing is the last resort. Also, if it does take a pin, I'll usually only bang it in to hold body weight, saving some time for it to be removed (unless it's necessary for protection).
I think this is why speedclimbing/efficient-climbing has a bad name. People just don't understand it. Hope this answers your question.
Cheers-
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Mimi
Social climber
Seattle
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Jan 14, 2005 - 10:36pm PT
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Thanks Ammon for the response.
I guess the question is, are you willing to use hammered placements on a route that's been done cleanly in order to increase speed/efficiency?
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jan 15, 2005 - 02:20am PT
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it's my impression that most climbers that are able to ascend these walls in a push are not often whacking in pins where they can avoid it. they are going fast and light, and constantly redefining what that phrase means.
a friend who did the sheild w/ C-Mac spoke of (or whispered in hushed tones about) unroped exchanges of gear on hand placed pins, and nearly entire pitches of back-cleaned gear.
i think the pins that are still being hammered into routes that are becoming clean routes are usually driven in by climbers who are pushing their own skills to the edge of their comfort level, and so they feel that they need the driven pin for security, while the guys that are on the boot for breakfast are pretty familiar w/ various tricks that help them avoid the carpentry.
neither "speed climbers" nor "efficient climbers" are hacks, it's like the ESPN commercials for the PGA tour says: "these guys are good!"
(not that you were asking me)
it's interesting that this thread began w/ hans' name being thrown out. personally i get the sense that much of the "negative image" of speed climbing (not that i personally see it as negative, but it was refered to as such in this thread) does not come from hans and yuji vs. dean and timmy, but instead from the amazing uber-hubers (and their dominance of the largely fixed route zodiac had become, prior to this past fall's scrubbing), not to mention the fact that lurking fear and NWFoHD have generally become substantially fixed where the free climbing gets really hard, mostly due to various party's repeated free attempts. then the same fixed gear that assits folks who aim to do the routes in a day (or less) kinda cheats the teams that were looking to climb the whole route.
hans isn't up there preplacing gear on the nose, nor does anyone need to follow along and clean up after him. i think that's an important distinction.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Jan 17, 2005 - 12:54pm PT
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Exactly, Matt...Nothing that I've seen has resulted in fixed gear being left in place as much as certain free attempts have. The speed climbers have merely taken advantage of what was already left in place (although in some cases they may have been the same ones that left it there).
If a person can leave the hammer and iron on the ground when trying to lug their whole world up the rock on their back (to avoid a small hual) when going in a push, I think that usually they will.
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steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 17, 2005 - 02:15pm PT
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--Haa ha ha, thanks for the suggestion guys.... but,
--Hans beat me to it.
--
--http://speedclimb.com/buy/
--
--Maybe he'll give me a chapter in his next edition
--about "efficient hard-aid".
Just for accuracy sake, it should be added that Bill Wright co-authored this book with Hans.
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steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 17, 2005 - 02:19pm PT
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--Haa ha ha, thanks for the suggestion guys.... but,
--Hans beat me to it.
--
--http://speedclimb.com/buy/
--
--Maybe he'll give me a chapter in his next edition
--about "efficient hard-aid".
To be accurate, it should be noted that
Bill Wright co-authored this book with Hans.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2005 - 12:44am PT
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After reading this after a few months, I feel I did a very poor job portraying my message. The title was the worst. I had just gotten an email from someone saying, “I’m not a big fan of ‘speedclimbing’.... and off I went.
I hate this terminology!!
I also dislike when people call me an “Aid Climber”!! Com’ON, that’s just a narrow way of thinking.
Hey, I climb ROCK, just like everyone else.....just because I focus on BIG WALLS, does NOT make ME an aid climber. I think a LOT of climbers, especially the media, just don’t have any concept of what goes on while we are pushing ourselves on these routes.
When was the last time someone had FIVE first one day ascents in one year, on El Cap?
I should have never named any names…. And I associated Hans with speedclimbing at the X-Games, and he was the first person I thought of while writing THAT rant. Truth is, I respect Hans as one of the BEST efficient climbers, I know.
Well, I’m in Iowa working another rigging job in yet, another new arena….. my roommate is “Fly’n Brian”…. HE had something to say.... just his opinion, no need to get too worked up.
Haa ha haa!!!
Brian McCray wrote:
I’ve just got to address a few issues that have come to my attention over the last few years regarding speed climbing and aid climbing in general. The first time that this topic came to my attention was at the 2003 summer O.R. (outdoor retailer) show in Salt Lake City. I took it upon myself to introduce myself to Jeff Achey whom I had many mutual friends and climbing partners over the years.
Unbeknownst to me he was also the new editor of climbing magazine. I stepped up to Jeff and said,” hi, my name is Brian McCray and I just wanted to say hello”. “We seem to have numerous mutual climbing friends and I thought it nice to meet”. Jeff replied, “oh yeah, you were one of the guys who climbed Latitudes in Zion in a day.” “the first thing that came to my mind when I heard that was that you guys were just quickly smashing your way up the route and funking the beaks out and consequently damaging all the placements as you went”. “Did you do that?”
Well, I was taken aback. My little kind introduction had quickly turned into a full frontal assault. I had to stop and think a second to remember just exactly how we had taken those beaks out and whether we actually were vandals as implied. “No, that is not what we do” was my thought out answer to Jeff. “We grab the draw, lift it up to reveal the base, tap up on the base with the hammer and the beaks easily fell out.”
I think Ammon and I both climb as cleanly and tenderly as is possible in this extreme and fragile environment. It’s just a real bummer to have such negative feedback from such cool climbing projects and accomplishments which really come from a level of expertise achieved and understood by very few. After this incident, numerous other negativities have drifted our way concerning the ignorance of what and how we climb so I’ve just gotta lay this to rest.
Well, first of all, I can only speak for myself and my best (and main) wall climbing partner Ammon Mcneely. I think there have been some excellent climbers who have climbed walls fast before “us” and there will be more “after us.” I feel that what Ammon and I have done on El Cap and in Zion in the last 5 years has definitely been a significant progression in wall climbing and I may be so bold to say that the skill that we have demonstrated is “unprecedented” and also basically unrecognized and unrewarded by the powers that be. I just heard the Huber’s got a golden piton for climbing Zodiac!
Dean Potter got the award a couple of years prior for his solo speed feats on the Nose and Half Dome. Don’t they know those are the easiest routes on the Big Stones!? The routes were rehearsed “god knows” how many times and every unknown sucked right out of the adventure. Bridwell tells me the definition of adventure is when the outcome is unknown.
Ammon and I climb ONSIGHT every time (except for Wall of Early Morning Light) and in a party of two. Many excellent teams before us believed three was better and more efficient. I believe two is way more committing and ultimately more efficient.
We have begun to prove that many of America’s most DIFFICULT faces can be climbed “alpine” or “speed” style with a day pack. Ammon and I NEVER add bolts to belay or otherwise (I actually had a friend think we did this to beef up belays because we were simule climbing! Haha!)
We always climb clean first and use piton craft LAST. We always bring plenty of water and any necessary gear to be safe (jackets, food, etc.) and self sufficient as possible. Of course, risk taking is part of climbing (at least it used to be) and we make as safe and reasonable decisions 100% of the time. As Hans puts it so eloquently on his site (speedclimb.com) “going fast does NOT mean being unsafe”.
I can’t think of any other critiques I’ve received right now so I’ll stop there. Thanks to so many in the general climbing public who have expressed respect. To those who just can’t seem to muster respect I say to you, “I’ll meet you in the middle of the night in the middle of el cap on hour 20 and see who’s left standing!”
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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May 20, 2005 - 01:08am PT
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Poor Ammon, R&I sent me a free magazine yesterday and I see you listed as an "Aid Climber." :)
Frankly, the concept of speed-anything interests me - efficiency is the name of the game, I reckon, anytime you do anything. I've partnered up with some slow screwballs and hated every minute. Conversely, I hate when I'm slow - if you're slow, you're not confident on your terrain - and that's where I like the concept of speed climbing, not the record aspect of it.]
Not that anyone asked . . .
This summer I have an entire case of beer for you to pick your brain.
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WBraun
climber
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May 20, 2005 - 01:42am PT
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The aid climber Ammon ha ha ha
Pretty funny, Now Ammon who gives a sh-it what they think? You are known for doing all that badass stuff on big walls and folks that don’t know you only see that part, that’s understandable. There’s also a lot of envious creatures out there that’ll want to knock your ass down to a reasonable level.
Remember there’s like 5 something billion folks on this planet. 99.99% of them could give a sh-it what climbing is.
But they do give a sh-it on how you interact with them.
Don’t worry, we love you.
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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May 20, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
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Hey, My idea of Speedclimbing Vs Efficient climbing would be That Efficient climbing would be just that Efficient. Simple anchors, quick change overs, continue movement over the stone, not fambling with gear being organized and so on. But once u start shortfixing and simul climbing, U have enter the realm of Speedclimbing. I think to be a Efficient climber should be every climbers goal. Speedclimbing is not for everyone. Sorry your just an Aid climber Ammon...Hahahahehe. Hopefully see you this summer. Meeting u in the summer of 2003 was nice. Don't worry Brian and Ammon all those guys in the climbing Mags are POSER's anyways.
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WBraun
climber
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May 20, 2005 - 12:42pm PT
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Brian McCray wrote:
I may be so bold to say that the skill that we have demonstrated is “unprecedented” and also basically unrecognized and unrewarded by the powers that be.
Who are the powers to be? Sorry, but I don't get it. Are there guys out there that run everthing?
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tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
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May 20, 2005 - 01:07pm PT
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Do "speed climbers" prepare routes by adding additional fixed gear during rehearsals?
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OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
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May 20, 2005 - 02:13pm PT
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Ammon wrote:
"After reading this after a few months, I feel I did a very poor job portraying my message. The title was the worst. I had just gotten an email from someone saying, “I’m not a big fan of ‘speedclimbing’.... and off I went."
Life is like that - something catches our eye and we speed-write instead of writing efficiently.
My reaction to your original post was somewhat negative because I know Hans and like Bill said, know that he is safe and methodical and he's never yelled around me. Fortunately, I read the whole tread before replying because my original reaction was a bit knee-jerk. Good thread, great topic.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2005 - 07:39pm PT
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Hey Werner, like always... those are some words of wisdom.
I really don’t care what people think about ME as a person. What I’m defending is the style of climbing that I became good at and have grown to love. I get a lot of negative comments about “speed climbing” because it seems most climbers do not understand it.
Negative comments such as; them thinking we are up there beating the hell out of everything in the sake of speed.
It also makes you wonder if the climbing media even understands when they can not recognize the difference between working a route for three months and onsighting a route that rarely gets done.
Haa haa, it’s not that it bothers me that people call me an aid climber.... like I said, it’s just a VERY narrow way of thinking.
Oh yeah, Werner, I think Brian meant climbing companies, mags, grant boards, etc.
"Do "speed climbers" prepare routes by adding additional fixed gear during rehearsals?"
Ok TomTom, either you’re trying to troll me or you really don’t know. I don’t rehearse. I don’t do them all onsight but I NEVER go up on a wall in the intention of leaving gear, water, etc. for a later ascent.
Some people do “rehearse” (Brian and I had a good laugh at that one) but it’s considered VERY poor style..... unless you are working the route for a free ascent.
Cheers-
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