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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 11, 2005 - 05:28pm PT
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There are a lot of people who have this misconception of speedclimbing. I think there are actually two different approaches to the madness.
On one hand you have guys like Hans (no disrespect) who are frantically climbing when they are going for records. They run-it-out, cut corners and yell a lot at their partners.
On the other hand, there are guys like Bridwell, Westbay and Long who started the whole thing with the FOD of the Nose. Later, Gerberding, Stowe and McCray (just to name a few) stepped up to the plate, taking their approach to a totally different level.
They pick hard/moderate aid routes, usually routes that they have never been on. They avoid rehearsing a route until it gets whipped into submission having it so dialed they’re shaving seconds off their previous time.
To me, this takes ALL the adventure away from the climb and spoils the true greatness of ascending stone in an efficient manner.
If you’ve ever had the opportunity to watch an “efficient-climber” you will notice they are NOT in a hurry at all. They are usually calm and collective. Not cutting corners and not in such a hurry they are thrashing around, damaging the rock in the process.
For the efficient-climber, the only difference between camping, or trying a route in a day, is that they leave all of their bivy gear on the ground. They bring less water and food, making them VERY committed. They’re not sure what the outcome is, because they have never been on the route before.
Well, these are just a few of my thoughts this afternoon. I think most of you would agree that efficient-climbing is a better style of ascending stone than speedclimbing.
After all, why would you spend multiple days on a route when you can do it in one?
Thoughts?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 11, 2005 - 05:45pm PT
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cool, interesting Ammon. I remember puting back some Sierra Nevadas with you in the meadow once...and you humbly told me that you just finished a 1 day of some sick A5 Klaus route...
...and I was like, "wow, how the heck do you climb A5 (or A4 whatever) FAST??? like isn't that sketchy?"
and you were like..."well, we slow down a little on those pitches."
my impression being that slow down a little means something like 1 or 2 hours. which on A4 is hard for me to comprehend, but it's all relative I guess.
I have only done a couple of walls-with-out-a-bivi, and have to say it was really fun. it adds a whole new element and feel to the climb. Getting to the top...eventually, isn't the only goal. You're also trying to beat the sun, the moon, or whatever time you have set for yourself. just spices up the whole experience.
You reach a point at sometime after many hours where it all becomes very surreal and takes on this sort-of natral high. i would compare it with the "runners high" that people describe after running long distances (only I get it after about 5 miles). the amount of focus required to keep moving and stay safe is super intense.
you get to elimante one of the worsts parts of standard style climbing...carrying that fk'ing pig.
but the biggest plus for me is that I can still go climb a wall in a weekend, and I think this might be the main reason I do more of it.
the long drive home afterward is much more scary for me then the climb. when Red-Bull no longer works you know things are gettin' dicey.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2005 - 06:04pm PT
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Haa haa, yep.... I remember Lambone. You guys just got off the WFLT, huh?
Keep on sending, man!!! Maybe we can rope up together somtime this year.... go for a route that nobody has tried to do in a day.
My favorite!!!
Cheers-
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 11, 2005 - 06:15pm PT
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yeah, great day it was...we were all sittin' there in a sleep deprived funk watching those crazy bastards rappelin' the Dawn Wall.
that wall was my first IAD. we were hella slow, but it was my partners first wall, so I was just psyched we pulled it off. climing under that moonlight was unreal...
climbing with you would be a blast, I better start training...
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Max
Social climber
huff 218
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Jan 11, 2005 - 06:22pm PT
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I agree completely Ammon. Though I revere such ascents as the Huber's sub 2hr sprint of Zodiac (pretty fun to watch from the meadow) and Han's frantic time chasing, they aren't the purest styles of "speed" climbing. Onsighting, as in any form of climbing, significantly increases the commitment and noteworthiness of an ascent.
When I first started climbing walls I worked for Satan (a.k.a. YCS) and had no choice but to get it done quickly. Since I had very little experience I failed miserably at first. Even when I finally succeeded I narrowly escaped death by pitch black descent. Though I suffered greatly these adventures were well worth the experience I gained. I got up about a half dozen walls that fall and never dealt with the horror of hauling and shitting in bags. I even managed to eke my way up Zodiac in a grueling 26+ hour push. I climbed a few routes in more conventional style the next season, tackling the moderate classics for lack of a ledge (when are those gonna get cheaper??) and I definitely noticed a lack of excitement on those trips. It's just too much damn work.
Since then I haven't mustered the motivation to go for an "efficient" style climb, preffering instead the relative ease of free climbing and bouldering and, well, hanging out. My suffering quota was filled for a while. But I still dream of busting out some more bivi-less routes in the future, and, well, hopefully I can recruit Ammon, so he can do the hard stuff...
Max
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2005 - 06:24pm PT
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Haaa, I think what impressed me the most was that you were getting ready to drive home after NO sleep. You said you had a 10 hour drive ahead of you.
I just looked at you like you were a crazed man on a mission and said: "Be careful".... or something along those lines.
Yep, start training and let's start planning!!!
Cheers-
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jan 11, 2005 - 06:25pm PT
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I think most of you would agree that efficient-climbing is a better style of ascending stone than speedclimbing.
i am not sure it was your intention, but it seems to me that there is no need to compare one style to another in order to demonstrate how great the one style is...
few would argue that a hard and unknown route in a push is more adventurous that chucking another lap on a route you know really well, but that doesn't mean that being able to chuck said lap on a hill like el cap in 2 or 2-1/2 hours is anything to shake a stick at either.
what's better style-
FS of astroman or thre rostrum, or trying to get your 1st 11a onsight?
bouldering v7, or sending your 1st 10b?
car to car on RA in sub 2hrs, or 6 beers in 3 hours in the meadow?
answer key:
they are all trick questions
he who has the most fun w/out ruining it for anyone else has the best style, period.
my 2 cents
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Jan 11, 2005 - 06:27pm PT
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OK man,
Anyone who has clumb with me knows I'm f*ckin slow on the aid pitches. So how does one increase this efficiency? Tips appreciated. I'm tired of pissing people off, I even bore myself.
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 11, 2005 - 06:31pm PT
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I watched Ammon do the first 2 pitches of the Straw and learned a lot just from that! He didn't look like he was climbing fast at all, just kept moving and was real smooth. After that I changed the way I aided and cut mass amounts of time off my previous speed. I look forward to pushing my skills this summer on pushes! I'll be around from june to september if anyone wants to climb.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2005 - 06:35pm PT
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Hey Max,
How are you bro? Yeah, you're right about the comparison and it was not my intention that one is "better" than the other. My argument is that one is more "adventurous" than the other.
It's kinda like when I was trying to go for the Yosemite Falls Trail record. It was fun trying to shave time off and it was getting me in really good shape. But, after a while it got boring and I just couldn't shave the ten minutes that was needed for the record.
I wasn't trying to bash the "speedclimbers" approach either. Those guys climb at a totally different level than me and I have a ton of respect for their boldness.
Yep Max, we WILL rope up together soon. You can have the run-out free climbing and I'll take the hard aid. We should make a good team.
Cheers-
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 11, 2005 - 06:37pm PT
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"Haaa, I think what impressed me the most was that you were getting ready to drive home after NO sleep. You said you had a 10 hour drive ahead of you.
I just looked at you like you were a crazed man on a mission and said: "Be careful".... or something along those lines."
dude I almost died that night...no sh#t. funny thing is that after 400 miles, I almost ate it on Main street in my hometown at 2am....less than 10 blocks from my house, I woke up in the left lane headed straight for a parked car. whew...close one. that would have been the end of my weekend wall epics....my wife would see to that. actually if she reads this thread it might be the end!
we'll be in touch man, thx for the offer. :-)
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 11, 2005 - 06:39pm PT
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well lambone, now i am kinda happy i did not go! I was kinda pissed at mommy and daddy for saying... NO! I know i would have driven off the road for sure!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 11, 2005 - 07:14pm PT
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you missed out bro...talk your folks into it and lets go. you can crash at my place for a night afterward.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Jan 11, 2005 - 07:46pm PT
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I want to climb something fast like that id be awsome not the Nose though or NWF thats just lame but like Skull queen or Southern Man or Wet denim daydream or my ultimate top of the wishlist SUNKIST holy sh#t thatd be sweet
Klaus hehe....your just a little too bad ass.
~TY~
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 11, 2005 - 07:50pm PT
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TY- did Skull Queen this fall. We actually fixed to dinner...but whatever those are lame pitches anyway. It was fun, super mellow. 'send it solo IAD.
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alik
Big Wall climber
edmonton
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Jan 11, 2005 - 07:57pm PT
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I hear ya Ammon. climbing an unknown route is always more fun and climbing an unknown wall route fast is even better. When speedclimbing a wall you haven't done before you get all the usual challenges of onsighting a wall, such as routefinding and dealing with the unique difficulties that every aid pitch has, but with the added challenge of climbing quickly and efficiently. Also the greater level of commitment really appeals to me.
The stuff that hans and the hubers have done still deserves respect though. Its just another style of climbing. not neccessarily better or worse than "efficient climbing.
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alik
Big Wall climber
edmonton
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Jan 11, 2005 - 08:09pm PT
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hey Ty, what do you have against doing RNWF or the Nose. those are some of my favorite climbs in the valley. although RNWF isn't really a wall, more of a long free climb with a few aid moves here and there.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2005 - 08:34pm PT
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Klaus,
Haa haa, I would expect such a comment coming from you. Mr. First Ascent, himself.....
Not everyone is as fortunate as you were/are with their ticklist of FA's.
Yep, FA's are about as adventurous as it gets. Trying to do the second ascent in a day is the next best thing.
Cheers-
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Jan 11, 2005 - 08:59pm PT
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im sorry i didnt make it clear about the nose and NWF they are indeed fine routes but im talking about trying to break the speed record on them ...like the battle over the records on just those routes. I still wanna do them for sure.
~TY~
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2005 - 09:40pm PT
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I don’t get it Ammon, I ‘ve seen all types of ascents and everything you’ve mentioned and the bottom line that comes to my conclusion is the individual experience. All these folks are having the time of their lives…..both good or bad, and everything in between. The sense of adventure doesn’t seem diminished to me.
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alik
Big Wall climber
edmonton
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Jan 11, 2005 - 09:46pm PT
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gotcha. hey dude wanna do the nose IAD this summer?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Jan 11, 2005 - 10:20pm PT
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It's all good. I've had great adventures on everything from single pitch epics where I never even found the single pitch I was seeking to speed-jugging a route that I'd been on 3 times just to see if I could do it faster.
Adventure and efficiency seem to be more opposite than alike in my experiences. When I'm really climbing efficiently, the adventure factor seems to be much lower than when I'm in over my head and scratching my ass trying to figure out what the hell I'm supposed to do next. Maybe that's just me...
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2005 - 10:39pm PT
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Hey Werner,
You’re absolutely right!!!
I guess this all spawned from an email I got this morning. The person said they were not a big fan of “speedclimbing”.
It’s not the first time someone categorized me as a “speedclimber” and I was a little bit offended (I’ve actually used this term in the past for lack of a better one).
For some reason this terminology is frowned upon by the rest of the climbing community. People think that we’re just up there hacking and thrashing our way to glory and don’t care about the damage we do, while at it.
I started thinking about it (not for the first time) and came to the conclusion that I’m more of an “efficient-climber” than a “speedclimber”. I wasn’t trying to put any other style down, just stating the style “I” like to climb in.
So, I posted my thoughts and asked for everyone else’s. Maybe I didn’t choose my words carefully enough.
Cheers-
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Jan 11, 2005 - 10:44pm PT
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F*#king hells ya Alik ive been waiting for you to ask! lol
hardy har har
~TY~
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 11, 2005 - 11:06pm PT
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alik and puke... either of you guys want to do some of the more aid intensive stuff in a push? It would be cool for the young monkeys to send!
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jan 11, 2005 - 11:14pm PT
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I was always impressed by Gerberding, Stowe, etc. in their speed ascents because they don't necessarily fit the Hollywood image of rock warriors like the Hubers do. They were ticking off so many 24 hour ascents of hard, hard routes in the 90's and it always blew me away. I agree with some of those above in that they are definitely different styles. You can't climb hard stuff like that in the frantic manner that gets you a sub-2 hour time like you were on the Nose. Hans is a super comptetive guy but he is always ready to buy someone beer if he gets beat. It takes a lot of intensity to climb like that, and it isn't something we should all necessarily aspire to. I still give him mad props for doing what he has done....and after all he enjoys it and who is he hurting?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 11, 2005 - 11:18pm PT
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Ammon,
considering all your "speed" records on El Cap...it wouldn't strike me as odd to hear someone describe you as a "speedclimber." Although I agree that what you are out to do vs what people like Dean, Hans, the Hubers, etc. are out to do are completely different.
personaly I think onsighting hard stuff in a push is way more prowd then the cardiovascular excersize that the Nose has become.
I don't think either term is the right or wrong word to use to describe it. I mean, trying to shave one minute off a 3,000ft climb could be descibed as the ultimate test in effeciency as well.
either way you need to take that sh#t down to Patagonia where push climbing is a style spawned out of nescesity rather then just something to do for fun when bored in the Valley. if you don't it'd be a waste of a great talent IMHO, that place is incredible.
[edit:] huh, I guess Spin and I were typing on the same wavelength there...
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Jan 11, 2005 - 11:18pm PT
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Im down for it any time Wally you gonna be there this summer? Ive got some BIG sh#t planned for this year. O yes indeed.
As soon as i get the money to fix my truck ill be down there.
~TY~
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 11, 2005 - 11:33pm PT
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I will be there around mid june and stay till mid september. I need to get lots done!
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Jan 12, 2005 - 12:02am PT
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sweet dude!
hey ammon have you ever done Swoop Gimp in zion? it looks pretty sweet
~TY~
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chris v
climber
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Jan 12, 2005 - 01:11am PT
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Ammon,
I really agree with your point here. I was never into speed climbing for a variety of reasons, but efficient climbing has always fascinated me. I really don't like climbing against time, I've probably carried a watch on like 2 walls total. Nothing beats the feeling of climbing as light as possible and just going for it especially on a route you've never done before for just the sake of doing it.
Nothing against those who do carry watches and follow the seconds closely. It's just not for me.
Without a time it takes away all the BS details too. like when people ask how fast I did a route I just tell them I don't know. Or I say something like "in daylight".
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clustiere
Trad climber
running springs, ca
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Jan 12, 2005 - 01:26am PT
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SPINMASTER we still need to get on the Lowe Route in a day. Seriously get yer ass back in shape and solo some walls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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alik
Big Wall climber
edmonton
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Jan 12, 2005 - 01:47am PT
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Bigwalling, I'm totally down for the more aid intensive sh#t as well. In fact, I'm a pretty weak free climber. I only step out of my aiders on a wall when I really have to.
You, me and tyler are gonna have to send some sh#t this summer.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Jan 12, 2005 - 01:52am PT
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I like free climbing better.... so we have a dream team flyin now!
hardy har
~TY~
"A flippin twelve gauge what do you think!"
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 12, 2005 - 03:06pm PT
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I did a bunch of speed climbing using various approaches and the one that stands out as the most fun and biggest adventure is when Dale Bard and I did the 2nd ODA of El Cap (if this actually qualifies) via the West Face, on sight, mostly free, in 5 hours. Racing up known terrain is great fun, but not high advdenture.
JL
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2005 - 05:18pm PT
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Hey John,
Of course that qualifies!! I wonder why your ascent never got recorded. Hans has done a pretty good job keeping track of noteworthy ascents like this but this is the first time I've heard of it.
He has a page here:
http://www.speedclimb.com/yosemite/2nd3rds.htm
That would fit this ascent perfectly. I think it's important to have the record straight when it comes to history like this. Some of the stuff you guys were doing were WAY before your time and has changed the way we approach big walls, today.
Cheers-
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wildone
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 12, 2005 - 05:40pm PT
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Last summer I got a chance to hump a load to TT for Scott Stowe and watch him climb the first pitch before I had to get on with my plans for the day. It was quite a treat, for sure. I almost missed all of it. He racked up, and I was cleaning the junk out from between my toes with a stick and by the time I looked up, he was halfway done with the first pitch! I mean, I couldn't believe it. And until Ammon brought up this topic, I hadn't really understood why seeing that had so awed me at the time. I've seen a few people climb fast, but scott looked like he was just climbing like the rest of us but the ground he covered really killed me.
my .02
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 12, 2005 - 10:33pm PT
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There were a lot of speed ascents from the 60s and early 70s that I think have been forgotten, probably because generally the thing was to just do the climb in a day--the whole counting minutes thing came in much later. During the 1st ODA of the Nose, we could have gone much faster, it's just that when we got to the top of the Boot, at 7:30 in the morning, we knew we had it and just cruised from there, enjoying ourselves. Just the same, you've got to be impressed by just how fast some of these guys have gone. I think an on-sight speed record would be a nice addition to the list.
JL
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BillWright
Trad climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Jan 13, 2005 - 06:35pm PT
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Ammon,
You wrote in your first post: "On one hand you have guys like Hans (no disrespect) who are frantically climbing when they are going for records. They run-it-out, cut corners and yell a lot at their partners."
Then you stated this: "If you've ever had the opportunity to watch an 'efficient-climber' you will notice they are NOT in a hurry at all. They are usually calm and collective."
You make a number of good points, but let me start with this. If you've ever had the opportunity to watch Hans on a speed ascent you will notice that he is NOT in a hurry either. I know this sounds unbelievable to many climbers, but I watched his and Yuji's record ascent of the Nose and I videoed it. I just watched it again last night and it is so slow you have to watch it at high speed motion. I plan to put some clips of it up on my website in the future.
Anyway, back to the speed record. These guys climbed the Nose in 2h48m. You'd think they were just running up the rock, but they aren't. They ARE moving very efficiently. They ARE moving very continuously. And, yes, they ARE taking some big chances, but for them these aren't huge risks. Yuji does run things out massively on 5.10 (and even on 5.12 on his Lurking Fear speed ascent), but Yuji climbs 5.15 and this is like me running out a 5.5 pitch. It isn't that crazy. For him.
I'm giving a speed show at Neptune Mountaineering later this month and I was going to show Yuji's lead of the first 5.10+ pitch of the Nose. It doesn't look anything like that wild speed solo of Dan Osman on Bear's Reach at Lover's Leap near Tahoe (on some climbing video). Yuji is very methodical and it doesn't look all that impressive until you notice that he just led a 150-foot 5.10+ pitch in about 4 minutes (this is only 6 inches per second). The key is the efficiency. He almost never stops moving on the entire ascent. They simul-climbed 90% of the route.
So, even this extreme of speed climbing is really efficient climbing. They aren't frantic and they aren't running. But they are moving efficiently and continuously up 3000 feet of rock, most of which is 5.10 or harder. That's impressive.
Is this as adventurous as your one-day, onsight, second ascents? No. Every climb isn't a huge adventure. At least for most of us. I love the adventure aspects of climbing and for the first ten years of my climbing career, I almost never repeated a route for this reason. Now I see climbing as more than just an adventure, though that is by far my favorite aspect. Sometimes, like when I do easy solos in the Flatirons above Boulder, it is just a respite from the run into the climb. Sometimes it's just a physical workout, done in a beautiful place. Sometimes it is a big adventure on a new (for me - I'll leave the first ascents to you experts), backcountry, alpine route. Sometimes it is working a sport project in Boulder canyon. And, sometimes, it is just to see how fast I can safely go on rock - to see how much climbing I can possibly get done in the two hours before I have to go to work on a weekday morning.
You know all this and I know (and you stated) that you meant no disrespect to "speed climbing." I just wanted to make it clear to others that even the really fast speed climbs don't look crazy, but look very methodical.
Oh, and Hans doesn't yell at his partners any more than a non-speedclimbing team. In fact, he communicates much less per pitch than probably any other type of climbing. The difference is two-fold: the climbing is compressed into a shorter time period and the climbers are very rarely near each other and hence the raised voices - merely to be heard, not to berate his partner to greater speed.
A great, fun discussion. I hope we can hook up for a route sometime. We've discussed it in the past, but no luck so far. I'd love to see such great, efficient aid climbing up close. Just like many others that posted here, I can't imagine how fast you climb those scary aid pitches.
Bill
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 13, 2005 - 07:19pm PT
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Every time that ammon posts something about speed climbing i love reading it.. because i hope to find a lists of tips on how to climb smoother.. and more efficiently...
Ammon .. you should write a how-to guide for efficient wall climbing.
I have to second Werner's post though -- its about the experience.. I've loved every second of both of my slow-ass ascents of el-cap (7 days each) .. but i would LOVE to become a more efficient climber .. (and quickly too) ..
.. hopefully this year i'll get my first IAD ascent of something short.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2005 - 04:44pm PT
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Hey Bill,
Good to see your post!!! Welcome.
This is exactly the kind of discussion I was trying to invoke. I guess I shouldn’t have named any names when I originally posted my thoughts.
I remember asking Gerberding after he climbed the Dihedral Wall with Hans. “What was it like climbing with Hans”, I asked.
“It was awesome. Hans is an incredible climber”, Steve replied.
I have the utmost respect for Hans and shouldn’t have used him as an example. He climbs at a totally different level than I do, as I do him. I can’t begin to imagine sending some of the routes he has, as fast as he’s done them.
So, I’m still learning the “other” side of push ascents, the side that I’m still new at. Hell, I’m still learning…... Period. It’s good to see other climber’s views on this subject.
Cheers-
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 14, 2005 - 05:23pm PT
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"Ammon .. you should write a how-to guide for efficient wall climbing."
ditto that, money maker for sure and you are a good writter. people are looking for the guidebook that takes them to the next level. which is why the topic is allways coming up on these forums.
you should talk with c-mac about it anyway.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2005 - 05:31pm PT
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Haa ha ha, thanks for the suggestion guys.... but, Hans beat me to it.
http://speedclimb.com/buy/
Maybe he'll give me a chapter in his next edition about "efficient hard-aid".
Cheers-
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Brian
climber
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Jan 14, 2005 - 05:48pm PT
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(1) After all, why would you spend multiple days on a route when you can do it in one?
"Some mountaineers are proud of having done all their climbs without bivouac. How much they have missed! And the same applies to those who enjoy only rock climbing, or only the ice climbs, only the ridges or the faces. We should refuse none of the thousand and one joys that the mountains offer us at every turn. We should brush nothing aside, set no restrictions. We should experience hunger and thirst, be able to go fast, but also know how to go slowly and to contemplate." (Gaston Rebuffat)
(2) Speed climbing = carrying a stopwatch and/or reporting your time on any climb. Efficient climbing = uh, efficient climbing.
(3) Best way to become an efficient climber is to climb with or observe one. I’d been trad climbing for well over 12 years when Kevin Thaw passed me on the Nose (he was doing it in a day with Singer, it was my second wall and I was doing it in something like 3.5 days). Anyhow, after watching Kevin as he climbed past (French free on the RP pitch above Camp 5), I climbed the next 2 or 3 pitches more quickly (combined) than I’d climbed any single pitch up to that point…
Brian
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2005 - 06:05pm PT
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Quote:
(1) After all, why would you spend multiple days on a route when you can do it in one?
"Some mountaineers are proud of having done all their climbs without bivouac. How much they have missed! And the same applies to those who enjoy only rock climbing, or only the ice climbs, only the ridges or the faces. We should refuse none of the thousand and one joys that the mountains offer us at every turn. We should brush nothing aside, set no restrictions. We should experience hunger and thirst, be able to go fast, but also know how to go slowly and to contemplate." (Gaston Rebuffat)
Good point!!
I love camping on walls. I guess I was talking about "MY" personal experience after setting up a portalege over 400 times.... I was ready for something new.
Cheers-
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Mimi
Social climber
Seattle
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Jan 14, 2005 - 10:03pm PT
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I think it's amazing how you guys get up Valley walls so fast and I understand the challenges. But I'm curious about speed climbing in this sense; what impact is speed or efficient climbing having on the size of the pin scars? It seems to me that the ultimate challenge for you guys would be clean aid or hammerless speed ascents. Is this type of climbing in your future?
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2005 - 10:23pm PT
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Hey Mimi,
This is exactly my point. Most people think we're up there thrashing the hell out of the rock.
I think speed ascents actually have LESS impact than camping on the wall. I will bang in a pin (if that's what the placement takes) while camping on the wall just the same as if I were on a push ascent.
I ALWAYS use a clean placement if I think one can work. Nailing is the last resort. Also, if it does take a pin, I'll usually only bang it in to hold body weight, saving some time for it to be removed (unless it's necessary for protection).
I think this is why speedclimbing/efficient-climbing has a bad name. People just don't understand it. Hope this answers your question.
Cheers-
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Mimi
Social climber
Seattle
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Jan 14, 2005 - 10:36pm PT
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Thanks Ammon for the response.
I guess the question is, are you willing to use hammered placements on a route that's been done cleanly in order to increase speed/efficiency?
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jan 15, 2005 - 02:20am PT
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it's my impression that most climbers that are able to ascend these walls in a push are not often whacking in pins where they can avoid it. they are going fast and light, and constantly redefining what that phrase means.
a friend who did the sheild w/ C-Mac spoke of (or whispered in hushed tones about) unroped exchanges of gear on hand placed pins, and nearly entire pitches of back-cleaned gear.
i think the pins that are still being hammered into routes that are becoming clean routes are usually driven in by climbers who are pushing their own skills to the edge of their comfort level, and so they feel that they need the driven pin for security, while the guys that are on the boot for breakfast are pretty familiar w/ various tricks that help them avoid the carpentry.
neither "speed climbers" nor "efficient climbers" are hacks, it's like the ESPN commercials for the PGA tour says: "these guys are good!"
(not that you were asking me)
it's interesting that this thread began w/ hans' name being thrown out. personally i get the sense that much of the "negative image" of speed climbing (not that i personally see it as negative, but it was refered to as such in this thread) does not come from hans and yuji vs. dean and timmy, but instead from the amazing uber-hubers (and their dominance of the largely fixed route zodiac had become, prior to this past fall's scrubbing), not to mention the fact that lurking fear and NWFoHD have generally become substantially fixed where the free climbing gets really hard, mostly due to various party's repeated free attempts. then the same fixed gear that assits folks who aim to do the routes in a day (or less) kinda cheats the teams that were looking to climb the whole route.
hans isn't up there preplacing gear on the nose, nor does anyone need to follow along and clean up after him. i think that's an important distinction.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Jan 17, 2005 - 12:54pm PT
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Exactly, Matt...Nothing that I've seen has resulted in fixed gear being left in place as much as certain free attempts have. The speed climbers have merely taken advantage of what was already left in place (although in some cases they may have been the same ones that left it there).
If a person can leave the hammer and iron on the ground when trying to lug their whole world up the rock on their back (to avoid a small hual) when going in a push, I think that usually they will.
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steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 17, 2005 - 02:15pm PT
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--Haa ha ha, thanks for the suggestion guys.... but,
--Hans beat me to it.
--
--http://speedclimb.com/buy/
--
--Maybe he'll give me a chapter in his next edition
--about "efficient hard-aid".
Just for accuracy sake, it should be added that Bill Wright co-authored this book with Hans.
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steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 17, 2005 - 02:19pm PT
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--Haa ha ha, thanks for the suggestion guys.... but,
--Hans beat me to it.
--
--http://speedclimb.com/buy/
--
--Maybe he'll give me a chapter in his next edition
--about "efficient hard-aid".
To be accurate, it should be noted that
Bill Wright co-authored this book with Hans.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2005 - 12:44am PT
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After reading this after a few months, I feel I did a very poor job portraying my message. The title was the worst. I had just gotten an email from someone saying, “I’m not a big fan of ‘speedclimbing’.... and off I went.
I hate this terminology!!
I also dislike when people call me an “Aid Climber”!! Com’ON, that’s just a narrow way of thinking.
Hey, I climb ROCK, just like everyone else.....just because I focus on BIG WALLS, does NOT make ME an aid climber. I think a LOT of climbers, especially the media, just don’t have any concept of what goes on while we are pushing ourselves on these routes.
When was the last time someone had FIVE first one day ascents in one year, on El Cap?
I should have never named any names…. And I associated Hans with speedclimbing at the X-Games, and he was the first person I thought of while writing THAT rant. Truth is, I respect Hans as one of the BEST efficient climbers, I know.
Well, I’m in Iowa working another rigging job in yet, another new arena….. my roommate is “Fly’n Brian”…. HE had something to say.... just his opinion, no need to get too worked up.
Haa ha haa!!!
Brian McCray wrote:
I’ve just got to address a few issues that have come to my attention over the last few years regarding speed climbing and aid climbing in general. The first time that this topic came to my attention was at the 2003 summer O.R. (outdoor retailer) show in Salt Lake City. I took it upon myself to introduce myself to Jeff Achey whom I had many mutual friends and climbing partners over the years.
Unbeknownst to me he was also the new editor of climbing magazine. I stepped up to Jeff and said,” hi, my name is Brian McCray and I just wanted to say hello”. “We seem to have numerous mutual climbing friends and I thought it nice to meet”. Jeff replied, “oh yeah, you were one of the guys who climbed Latitudes in Zion in a day.” “the first thing that came to my mind when I heard that was that you guys were just quickly smashing your way up the route and funking the beaks out and consequently damaging all the placements as you went”. “Did you do that?”
Well, I was taken aback. My little kind introduction had quickly turned into a full frontal assault. I had to stop and think a second to remember just exactly how we had taken those beaks out and whether we actually were vandals as implied. “No, that is not what we do” was my thought out answer to Jeff. “We grab the draw, lift it up to reveal the base, tap up on the base with the hammer and the beaks easily fell out.”
I think Ammon and I both climb as cleanly and tenderly as is possible in this extreme and fragile environment. It’s just a real bummer to have such negative feedback from such cool climbing projects and accomplishments which really come from a level of expertise achieved and understood by very few. After this incident, numerous other negativities have drifted our way concerning the ignorance of what and how we climb so I’ve just gotta lay this to rest.
Well, first of all, I can only speak for myself and my best (and main) wall climbing partner Ammon Mcneely. I think there have been some excellent climbers who have climbed walls fast before “us” and there will be more “after us.” I feel that what Ammon and I have done on El Cap and in Zion in the last 5 years has definitely been a significant progression in wall climbing and I may be so bold to say that the skill that we have demonstrated is “unprecedented” and also basically unrecognized and unrewarded by the powers that be. I just heard the Huber’s got a golden piton for climbing Zodiac!
Dean Potter got the award a couple of years prior for his solo speed feats on the Nose and Half Dome. Don’t they know those are the easiest routes on the Big Stones!? The routes were rehearsed “god knows” how many times and every unknown sucked right out of the adventure. Bridwell tells me the definition of adventure is when the outcome is unknown.
Ammon and I climb ONSIGHT every time (except for Wall of Early Morning Light) and in a party of two. Many excellent teams before us believed three was better and more efficient. I believe two is way more committing and ultimately more efficient.
We have begun to prove that many of America’s most DIFFICULT faces can be climbed “alpine” or “speed” style with a day pack. Ammon and I NEVER add bolts to belay or otherwise (I actually had a friend think we did this to beef up belays because we were simule climbing! Haha!)
We always climb clean first and use piton craft LAST. We always bring plenty of water and any necessary gear to be safe (jackets, food, etc.) and self sufficient as possible. Of course, risk taking is part of climbing (at least it used to be) and we make as safe and reasonable decisions 100% of the time. As Hans puts it so eloquently on his site (speedclimb.com) “going fast does NOT mean being unsafe”.
I can’t think of any other critiques I’ve received right now so I’ll stop there. Thanks to so many in the general climbing public who have expressed respect. To those who just can’t seem to muster respect I say to you, “I’ll meet you in the middle of the night in the middle of el cap on hour 20 and see who’s left standing!”
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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May 20, 2005 - 01:08am PT
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Poor Ammon, R&I sent me a free magazine yesterday and I see you listed as an "Aid Climber." :)
Frankly, the concept of speed-anything interests me - efficiency is the name of the game, I reckon, anytime you do anything. I've partnered up with some slow screwballs and hated every minute. Conversely, I hate when I'm slow - if you're slow, you're not confident on your terrain - and that's where I like the concept of speed climbing, not the record aspect of it.]
Not that anyone asked . . .
This summer I have an entire case of beer for you to pick your brain.
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WBraun
climber
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May 20, 2005 - 01:42am PT
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The aid climber Ammon ha ha ha
Pretty funny, Now Ammon who gives a sh-it what they think? You are known for doing all that badass stuff on big walls and folks that don’t know you only see that part, that’s understandable. There’s also a lot of envious creatures out there that’ll want to knock your ass down to a reasonable level.
Remember there’s like 5 something billion folks on this planet. 99.99% of them could give a sh-it what climbing is.
But they do give a sh-it on how you interact with them.
Don’t worry, we love you.
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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May 20, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
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Hey, My idea of Speedclimbing Vs Efficient climbing would be That Efficient climbing would be just that Efficient. Simple anchors, quick change overs, continue movement over the stone, not fambling with gear being organized and so on. But once u start shortfixing and simul climbing, U have enter the realm of Speedclimbing. I think to be a Efficient climber should be every climbers goal. Speedclimbing is not for everyone. Sorry your just an Aid climber Ammon...Hahahahehe. Hopefully see you this summer. Meeting u in the summer of 2003 was nice. Don't worry Brian and Ammon all those guys in the climbing Mags are POSER's anyways.
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WBraun
climber
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May 20, 2005 - 12:42pm PT
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Brian McCray wrote:
I may be so bold to say that the skill that we have demonstrated is “unprecedented” and also basically unrecognized and unrewarded by the powers that be.
Who are the powers to be? Sorry, but I don't get it. Are there guys out there that run everthing?
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tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
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May 20, 2005 - 01:07pm PT
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Do "speed climbers" prepare routes by adding additional fixed gear during rehearsals?
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OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
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May 20, 2005 - 02:13pm PT
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Ammon wrote:
"After reading this after a few months, I feel I did a very poor job portraying my message. The title was the worst. I had just gotten an email from someone saying, “I’m not a big fan of ‘speedclimbing’.... and off I went."
Life is like that - something catches our eye and we speed-write instead of writing efficiently.
My reaction to your original post was somewhat negative because I know Hans and like Bill said, know that he is safe and methodical and he's never yelled around me. Fortunately, I read the whole tread before replying because my original reaction was a bit knee-jerk. Good thread, great topic.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2005 - 07:39pm PT
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Hey Werner, like always... those are some words of wisdom.
I really don’t care what people think about ME as a person. What I’m defending is the style of climbing that I became good at and have grown to love. I get a lot of negative comments about “speed climbing” because it seems most climbers do not understand it.
Negative comments such as; them thinking we are up there beating the hell out of everything in the sake of speed.
It also makes you wonder if the climbing media even understands when they can not recognize the difference between working a route for three months and onsighting a route that rarely gets done.
Haa haa, it’s not that it bothers me that people call me an aid climber.... like I said, it’s just a VERY narrow way of thinking.
Oh yeah, Werner, I think Brian meant climbing companies, mags, grant boards, etc.
"Do "speed climbers" prepare routes by adding additional fixed gear during rehearsals?"
Ok TomTom, either you’re trying to troll me or you really don’t know. I don’t rehearse. I don’t do them all onsight but I NEVER go up on a wall in the intention of leaving gear, water, etc. for a later ascent.
Some people do “rehearse” (Brian and I had a good laugh at that one) but it’s considered VERY poor style..... unless you are working the route for a free ascent.
Cheers-
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 20, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
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Whats wrong with climbing routes more then once to try and climb it faster or in better style? That is what you'd consider "rehearsing" right? I do it pretty much every time I go climb my favorite routes...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 20, 2005 - 08:13pm PT
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I understand why you guys don't like people putting down what you do...But why do you guys have to put the way other people find joy in climbing efficiently to make your point?
Rehersing can be high impact, or it can be pretty minimal. So long as it's minimal, why do you guys care if the other media studs want to rehearse for their speed climbs?
IMO, the only thing that is truly bad style is doing something that botches someone else's experience or the environment. This probably includes more common practices of the free climbing superheros than the speed/efficiency gurus...although some people wear both hats.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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May 20, 2005 - 09:13pm PT
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Hi,
Great thread Ammon, and I appreciate flyin Brian’s comments. You guys touched on this a bit and I agree that the main difference between trying something in a day onsite as opposed to rehearsing is the unknown and adventure factors. I did the NIAD yrs ago and followed that with the Salathe in a Day. I had never climbed El Cap before. The NIAD took two tries but the following year we walked up to the Salathe and climbed it onsite in a day. That was highly adventurous for us and remains perhaps my most memorable climb. Based upon the Topo’s and my experience as a climber on other walls in the US, I had no doubt that I could climb El Cap by these routes. I did wonder what doing the sucker in a day was going to be like. Would I get wigged out on exposure? What if a storm came in and we had to bail? Did I have the physical endurance to keep climbing for 20 hours? This style of climbing introduces a whole lot of unknowns, even with the best beta. Climbers don’t have to perform at your level to try and up their own adventure level, they can do it themselves by choosing to climb things onsite and in better style. I have no problem with the flip side of climbing the Nose a few times to get it dialed before doing it in a day, I personally do not have the perseverance for it nor the time. My partner and I knew we were not going to break any records, any competition going on was completely towards achieving our own goals seeing if we could do something that seemed so improbable for us.
As far as the powers that be, the Hubers time was an incredible athletic feat. I agree that the adventure level was way lower, but the press and glitz level was high. I would’nt worry too much about the lack of a golden piton. You guys are doing some amazing stuff.
Bode Miller, the greatest ski racer in the World (this year) was interviewed for Newsweek. He said he used his first world championship medal as a “weight to stabilize a wobbly toilet seat”. He said he didn’t ski for the medals, he could “go steal somebodys”. He ski raced because he loves it. I suspect that is why most of us climb. I wonder if there are golden pitons on ebay? Damn, everyone that has climbed El Cap should have one!
Gary
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 20, 2005 - 09:42pm PT
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Ok TomTom, either you’re trying to troll me or you really don’t know. I don’t rehearse. I don’t do them all onsight but I NEVER go up on a wall in the intention of leaving gear, water, etc. for a later ascent.
Some people do “rehearse” (Brian and I had a good laugh at that one) but it’s considered VERY poor style..... unless you are working the route for a free ascent.
what exactly do you mean by that?
considered poor style to whom?
IMO, what an elite climber might have to do to truely push themself does not change the scale for a regular joe.
lots of climbers whose goal it might be to send some route in a day (or in daylight or whatever) might not have the skill or experience to blitz the route onsight. i have talked to countless guys who've rehearsed the nose up through some midpoint in order to get the route done in a day, and i don't think it's a poor style at all. is it as proud as doing it onsight? obviously not, but that might be the only way it's gonna happen for someone who gets in one tenth the days that you might get in a year.
everything is a sliding scale on the rock, and "what is rad" is whatever is rad to whomever is doing it. any other scale is just an extrapolation of the 5.18 media driven hot-flash culture that makes those magazines so unappealing to the average climber.
those hubers get gold pitons for selling mags, and that's what that's all about, it's like the gear guide for rockstars.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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May 20, 2005 - 10:12pm PT
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Ammon we all know the most effective climbing is done while downing OE800!
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2005 - 09:03am PT
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"Any competition going on was completely towards achieving our own goals seeing if we could do something that seemed so improbable for us.
Nice Gary!! This was the whole reason I started timing myself.... to see if I was getting more efficient.
"considered poor style to whom?"
By ME and BRIAN!!!
Actually, Brian disagreed with me, he said it's not poor style..... it just doesn't even count.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 21, 2005 - 01:51pm PT
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maybe you are missing my point?
it may indeed "not count" to you or some other badass famous guy who is out setting speed records and whatnot, but when joe climber is out there trying to be as fast and efficient as possible (and may even be doing so without a watch), and they aren't experienced enough to complete a route onsight in a single push, then some rehersal is a common and typical method for breaking into that kind of effort.
and i doubt joe even cares if you or anyone else thinks it "counts".
it seems obvious that it would be a different category of speed ascent if you were climbing onsight, vs rehearsed or otherwise being familiar w/ the route, but you don't need to diss joe to make that clear.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2005 - 10:26pm PT
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Matt, I am NOT dissing Joe. Hey, I AM Joe in a lot of different areas in life.
Sorry that my limited time right now is making me INEFFICIENT with my thoughts.
Brian and I are talking about climbing in a style that paves a way for future climbing.
YES Matt, that's how you learn, have fun and be more efficient.... we all had to learn at one point.
Cheers!!!
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bigwalling
climber
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May 21, 2005 - 11:19pm PT
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Ammon... this is sorta disturbing... at first I thought is was a picture of puke or something.
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thebleeder
climber
chosstown
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May 22, 2005 - 12:34am PT
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yeah, ammon why you gotta diss me?
(heh)
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Dudley
Big Wall climber
Lexington, KY
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May 23, 2005 - 10:03am PT
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I'm going to try to be respectful__ah, f*#k it!
Ammon, You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. This is not directed
towards you.
Brian,
Let me get to the meat of it:
[on Jeff Achey] “the first thing that came to my mind when I heard that was that
you guys were just quickly smashing your way up the route and funking the beaks
out and consequently damaging all the placements as you went”. “Did you do
that?"
Do you really think he got to where he is by saying that type of sh#t? I would
be curious to hear his version of the quote.
"My little kind introduction had quickly turned into a full frontal assault."
Pretty sensitive for a guy who climbs A5.
"Bridwell tells me the definition of adventure is when the outcome is unknown.
May I be,"so bold as to ask," are you comparing yourself to Brdiwell? He doesn't
just climb in sunny weather you know.
"We have begun to prove that many of America’s most DIFFICULT faces can be
climbed “alpine” or “speed” style with a day pack."
Proving things is always the right thing to do. More than that, you have proved
on like 10 faces in 3 states. "Americas" is a pretty broad term don't cha
think?
I think there have been some excellent climbers who have climbed walls fast
before “us” and there will be more “after us.”
Yes! But many less vocal than you.
"I feel that what Ammon and I have done on El Cap and in Zion in the last 5
years has definitely been a significant progression in wall climbing"
Congratulations and good job - for real on that one.
"and I may be so bold to say that the skill that we have demonstrated is
“unprecedented” "
no, no you may not. Let's not beat our chest? What about the poor, unsponsored,
dudes from Russia, Poland, and Chechz Rep. They kill harder routes onsite, FA,
in a push, on real mountains. You don't hear them pulling their own chains do
you?
"Thanks to so many in the general climbing public who have expressed respect."
Do you really need respect to fill the void in your life? What happened to the
"because it is fun" attitude? This type of rant exacts no respect.
“I’ll meet you in the middle of the night in the middle of el cap on hour 20 and
see who’s left standing!”
Ok tough guy. Besides soundling like an neanderthal, Bridwell would meet you on
the Mooses Tooth at night, Viesters would meet you high on Everest with no
oxegen at midnight, and 3 dozen sherpa would carry 200lbs over your dead body
halfway to K2 on a full moon/ I would not want to meet you personally. You
kind of sound like a self-righteous as#@&%e.
"basically unrecognized and unrewarded by the powers that be."
Why do you climb again? For rewards because I thought that you made a point to
say that you climbed for the experience? No matter what you come back with, you
know you just proved that everyone craves attention. Do you really need a
reward for climbing that beautiful stone? Who hoo! I made the craptastic pages
of Climbing Magazine. Everyone look at me.
I just heard the Huber’s got a golden piton for climbing Zodiac!
Good for them. At least they aren't whining about what they haven't gotten, who
f*#ked them over, or why life sucks so much sometimes. Sounds like somebody
needs a ride in the whaaambulance.
Now, I might be a red neck white trash chicken sh#t motherf*#ker for calling you
out but you need to check yourself. Check your motives. Check your head. What
you do is rad no doubt. The thing that gets me is the hypocrite part? Let's
get it straight. Do you or do you not crave some attention? Are you angry at
the world because someone doesn't give you a reach around once in a while?
F*#king CMac - that guy did what 70 something walls? Instead of bitching about
it he found a way to get paid and give something back. What kind of recognition
are you looking for here? Why haven't you guys traveled out of the country?
WHy do you only climb in sunny CA or Pretty Sunny Utah? While impressive, your
resume lacks adventure to many.
What you need to realize is that no matter how hard you try, no matter what
route you send in a push, there will always be someone faster, doing it in
better style, and most of all hating you for your accomplishments. Embrace what
you do for what it is...a climb. Embrace that you are one of the lucky few who
can do what you do with the short amount of time you have. Embrace that you are
a role model for younger climbers and should be setting a better example.
Like so many in our generation, you expect to be compensated for doing nothing.
What does climbing contribute to the world? What are you personally
contributing? How will being found out by, "the powers that be," conribute to
nothing more than your benefit?
You need to do some soul searching brother. Maybe slowing down on your next EC
trip would do you good for your head. Get back to the reasons you started
climbing.
What a dissapointing role model you turned out to be.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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May 23, 2005 - 11:26am PT
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Yeah, I thought that Alaskan deal was BMc's first wall or something...
somebody needs to do their homework before pulling the spray trigger.
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tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
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May 23, 2005 - 12:45pm PT
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Ok TomTom, either you’re trying to troll me or you really don’t know. I don’t rehearse. I don’t do them all onsight but I NEVER go up on a wall in the intention of leaving gear, water, etc. for a later ascent.
Ammon,
Nope not trolling you. I think I remember something about extra gear on Zodiac pounded in place to help with speed climbing ascents.
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 01:00pm PT
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Hows that work? You have to climb it twice? First time to preplace gear and then do your speed thing?
They said all their speed ascents were onsight except one. How would the extra gear pounded in place get there, tomtom?
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flamer
Trad climber
denver
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May 23, 2005 - 03:58pm PT
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Somebody defiantly needs to get their facts straight.
Maybe you should ask Brian about his trips to Alaska...there's been more than 1..and the First(?) was with Bridwell...not his first wall but he was new to the Alpine game...ask him who lend the crux's?? Even burly snow/ice and mixed...with little prior experience(in that world).
Maybe you should ask about his trips to Pakistan?? The FA's he put up in the trango area??
Maybe you should ask him about the big wall comp in europe(russia?)....there's a time he got screwed.
Or maybe you should do some research before going off on a guy who is 10 times the climber most of us will ever be.
Drink some more stump water and think about that...in fact look it all up...you'll be surprised at the things Mr. Mccray hasn't reported to the big time media....
josh
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 04:39pm PT
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Ditto on that man!
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2005 - 07:36pm PT
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Hey Dudley,
I'll be the first one to admit that Brian is a bit abrasive. BUT, I think it's a breath of fresh air for someone to be THAT honest in their opinions about the way they feel. There's no need to get angry just because he rubbed you the wrong way. The reason he went off is because of all the grants that were turned down, companies not wanting to help with expeditions, etc.
BTW- He has done a LOT for the climbing community. He has left TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars in the wall for later generations of climbers.
The whole reason I started this topic is because I've heard countless of times "Well, I wouldn't want you to speed climb MY route... because you would f*#k it all up". This is coming from climbers who have put up some sick routes and whom I have the up most respect for.
They just don't understand that we are doing the exact same thing as if we were camping, minus all the bivy gear, extra food, etc. Yes, there are tricks to go faster BUT we are not up there smashing the sh#t out of everything.
Ok, so... I told Brian about this thread and he told me about MANY occasions where he got the same remarks that I've experienced. I highly doubt he will EVER see your post unless I tell him about it. Brian is a VERY ambitious person who doesn't have any time for the virtual campfire.
His intention was to get people riled up. He's a troll and doesn't even know it, haa haa haa.
Flamer is right however. He has done a handful of FA bigwalls in other countries. I, on the other hand, am having trouble getting my passport (Yes, my badboy past has caught up with me). However, this will be changing soon.
Tomtom, I think you are referring to the Huber's ascent of the Zodiac. They had pre-placed gear but it was placed there from working on the route to free climb it. The speed climb was an afterthought.
Yes, all but one ascent that Brian and I did were onsight (for him). BUT, I have climbed some of the routes before. Also, I have climbed "push style" with other partners that were not onsight. Usually, when I was learning the ropes and camping on them.
Get out there and have fun guys.... no matter which style you are climbing in. It's just plain FUN to be there.
Cheers, Ammon
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tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
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May 23, 2005 - 07:53pm PT
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Tomtom, I think you are referring to the Huber's ascent of the Zodiac. They had pre-placed gear but it was placed there from working on the route to free climb it. The speed climb was an afterthought.
Yup, that's what I was referring to. I didn't want to accuse anyone of 'bolting' a route without proof. Wasn't a lot of this gear pulled in the Zodiac cleanup?
I thought this thread was about Speedclimbing in general, not about Ammon exclusively.
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 08:01pm PT
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I ‘m ignorant of what the Hubers did on Zodiac. Did they place extra bolts and gear to make their fast ascents? I thought guys go up there with a rack of sh-it and start climbing their asses off to the top.
Is that how it’s done to go so fast on Zodiac?
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2005 - 08:28pm PT
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"I thought this thread was about Speedclimbing in general, not about Ammon exclusively."
Nice, climbing in an efficient style IS what this thread is about... I guess we got a little side tracked.
Werner, no they didn't place extra bolts. The only bolts that were placed on the route right before going out "The Nipple", you have to lower down to them and they used it for an anchor... so they wouldn't change the wall route.
Their free line is really not even the Zodiac. They started way over to the right of Plastic Surgery Disaster, climbed some into the Zodiac on the 5th pitch, traversed left to Shortest Straw for three or four pitches... back to the Zodiac in the "Grey Circle' then on and off the Zodiac to the summit.
They placed a ton of fixed gear that they used to protect themselves on the free climb. They used the same fixed gear for their speed climb.
They are good friends of mine and I respect what they did but, it's a LOT different than if they would have started the route without pre-placing all that gear.
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 08:52pm PT
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So in true reality the Hubers never climbed Zodiac in what was that world record time? Two hours and something minutes if one takes into account all those days preplanned, prefixed, and pre-rehearsed. This was spread out over the years to accomplish the present world record clock time on the Zodiac.
Now, when someone goes and does it on-sight in a day this is really a true record, like Ammon and Chris Mac just did on the Never Neverland just recently.
Thus which is the purer speed ascent? I believe Ammon and Chris. We never take anything away from the Huber world record time either for that is what it took to achieve their end. We only want to see the truth in the actual endeavor.
Thus I believe this was the real core of the argument?
Am I wrong?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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May 23, 2005 - 09:04pm PT
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I think you got it right Werner. Even after a team has done a wall one time, if all things are equal it is safe to assume that the subsequent ascent by the same team would be faster. I am confused because if they did infact climb a different line for much of the route, then perhaps it is safe to say that they did a different route than Zodiac. Still out of this world impressive, but not Zodiac.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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May 23, 2005 - 09:35pm PT
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Ammon, fixed the picture... was fine on my other computer, which also posts as my other name.
Ammon, biggest problem with what you guys do... is lacking time to swill! I don't think I will ever set any records because I would still bring at least hard liquor on climbs.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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May 24, 2005 - 10:56am PT
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If following the exact original line is the rule for an FFA, seems like no route on the Cap has been freed. But it seems like a line was crossed with the free NA, which started going everywhere. No, that was called something else. Yeah, I'm confused now too. Why's it still called Zodiac instead of Eurorider or Teutonic Heart or sumthin?
Anyhoo, free Zodiac avoids like half the route. That ain't Zodiac. I will say this, tho. Up there last August I was looking at all the chalk all over the route. (Miller's chalk?) Yikes. That's all I'm saying. Goddamn.
Flyin Brian, from what I heard about him, always seemed more like Bridwell than nearly anybody we got now. Nasty side but can back it up on the rock. And I'm trying to figure out the Golden Piton line. Does Brian McCray really give a rat's ass about a f*#king Golden Piton? I'll give him a Platinum Piton right now! I thought about that line a lot, cuz it seemed so whiny (riding the whaaambulance--haahahahah!) and was maybe thinking that was kind of like Bridwell too: seeming simultaneously not to give a sh#t at all and to care very deeply about petty things. Could be wrong.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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May 24, 2005 - 11:05am PT
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Whoa, I forgot my one speedclimbing story. I mean, efficient climbing story.
Get up the Salathe in three days with my buddy Rhino back in '98 or so. I'm with some people and we all end up at Hansie Florine's Yosemite West pad somehow. Hans gives the little tour, which includes an El Cap topo poster on his wall. It has all these handwritten notations by Hans on various routes, like: Me and Coward, 5:28. And Anker/Herson, 7:51. Pretty cool. I'm standing around thinking maybe I can snake something of Hans's and hawk it later on ebay or something.
But then this dude I'm with goes, "Hey, Ryan here just climbed the Salathe."
Hans says, "Oh, yeah?" Followed by probably his favorite question, "How fast?"
I'm all, "Uh, three days."
And check this out, all of a sudden Hans Florine has a pen out and he's frickin writing at the top of the Salathe: Ryan/Ryan, 72 hours.
hahahaahahahahahahahahaha!
Seventy two hours up the Cap. Top that ya sloths!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 24, 2005 - 01:44pm PT
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That's one of the really cool things about Hans...If you do something that is challenging and worthwhile for yourself, then he'll give you big kudos same as if you were an ultra-mega-studly stud.
I rented a room from him in said Yosemite West abode in 2002. The housemates had a big range of skill. He was always encouraging everyone to get out and do something cool...whether that was dare to take the sharp end on a 5.6, if that represented a real challenge for someone, or break a coveted "speed" record. There was a really positive/encouraging energy in the house to just go try hard and have fun.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 24, 2005 - 05:18pm PT
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"Seventy two hours up the Cap. Top that ya sloths!"
15 days on Muir.
9 days on Tempest.
7 days on Windhorse (a Grade V)
7 days on an ascent of Whitney East Face this last summer (not including ferrying loads to the base)
7 days circumnavigating Mt. Dickey, and never even reaching the summit by the easiest route.
2 years (and counting) on certain unfinished projects in the Sierra.
75+ unplanned bivies and counting...
Just a perspective from life in the slow lane.
Brutus, who always has a headlamp in the chalkbag and ensolite and space bag in the pack,
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
"I am not a fast climber, I am not a slow climber. I am a half-fast climber."
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 24, 2005 - 08:28pm PT
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75+ unplanned bivies and counting...
that's gotta be some sort of hard-man measuring stick, no?
dang...
not to mention the true hardship- that's 75 nights on climbing trips that you are not drinking cold beerz!
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Fly'n Brian
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas
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May 30, 2005 - 01:47am PT
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hey guys,
i just checked in to see what's happening with this topic. i also just got done reading the golden piton speed climbing award in the mag. i'll say straight up that what started this whole thread was that ammon and i feel sleighted and disrespected by the decision to give the award to the huber's for zodiac. bottom line.
i couldn't believe the slander at the start of the page referring to how sick of time reports the people at climbing mag have recieved over the years and how they won't have to report anymore speed times on el cap because what the huber's did was so impressive.
i'll have to say i've never sent any climbing times on anything to anyone except hans and really don't know who has. if it's so rediculous to have a speed record why is the huber's zodiac time impressive? why was the fod of the nose climbing news? why is the fod of plastic surgery disaster not climbing news?
i like werner's approah and posts. i continually try to get myself back to the place where my personal climbing experience is the most important. that is why i do not pursue media exposure. i want climbing to be a much deeper and fulfilling experience than being showcased in glamour magazine. i've got to say it's a bit difficult when numerous climbers around me are recieving money and support for debatedly comparable climbing endeavors.
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Fly'n Brian
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas
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May 30, 2005 - 02:22am PT
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well i missed a few posts before i wrote the last bit of dribble. who is this dudley guy? thanks to those who tried to set that spraycan straight. i don't want to expose my sensitivity TOO much anymore so i'll just have to tell dudley, (you're quite uninformed and i apologize for dispelling my respected role model status)
see ammon, wasn't that nice! why do you think i'm abrasive?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 11:13am PT
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Ok Brian, maybe abbrasive wasn't the right word.
Synonyms are everything from rude to rough, to uncompromising.
How about SALTY? Haa HAAaa haa!!!
Cheers!
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Burt
climber
Sin City
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May 31, 2005 - 01:15pm PT
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Sorry Ammon and Brian, I just have to comment. Who the f*#k does dudley think he is? Brian is the only climber that climbs at the caliber that he does and does not toot his own horn. But I understand his frustrations. He has been passed up for grants, sponsorships, and all of the other benifits that "pro" climbers are getting that can hardly lead without getting the shakes. I mean come on, the Great Trango in a push style ascent, or to climb a f*#king decent gully on the Mooses Tooth and call it the most rad thing in the world? What would you like to read about? I have spent many nights in a ledge, hanging in a harness, or stuck out on lead (for way too long on a push ascent) with Brian and he has nothing but positive and encoucouraging words for me. I have seen some of the most amazing feats done on some of the raddest routes around. (all of his big wall routes are unreapeated until just a few months ago when Ammon just sent Saurons Eye nice send Ammon!) I brought Jim Bridwell home from Mesquite, nv on long night and he had nothing but the upmost respect for Brian. He said that the Bears Tooth went down because Brian was on his team. His first time ever climbing ice was on the sharp end 5000 f*#king thousand feet up the Bears Tooth on one of Alaska's "Last Great Problems" So tell me again dudley, where do you get your info? I could go on forever just about the climbing that we have done together (which is 1% of the climbing that he has done) but I will leave that for my memories. I had bad climbing accident june 23 2004, I broke my back, legs, feet, pelvis, all that good stuff, Brian was by myside everyday for the first 2 weeks that I was in ICU and he was there almost everyday after that. I owe him my unbeliveible recovery, my spirits while being down, I owe him my life. So sorry if this sounds like a gay love poem but you hit a cord with me. So F*#k off dudley you don't know what the f*#k you are talking about.
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 01:29pm PT
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Burt
Have you recovered or are you still rehabilitating your body? Please feel no offense I’m truly interested after such a serious injury.
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Burt
climber
Sin City
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May 31, 2005 - 01:52pm PT
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My recovery was nothing short of a miricle as my doctor put it. They told me that I wouldn't walk until Dec. 25th, 6 months after my surgery. (I broke L1, L2, L3 which are now fused) and I started walking on my 29th day. I went climbing for the first time 3 months after (still tr 5.10!) and did my first lead that same day! I was climbing strong and I really just forgot that it happened then I was t-boned by a lady doing 50 mph which started my recovery all over again. I am doing better but I have lost some fight but I'll get there again. I still have problems with my feet (broke both of them) and my back isn't as strong as it used to be (no more 150 lbs haulbags!) But I am doing good. thanks for asking.
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Burt
climber
Sin City
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May 31, 2005 - 01:55pm PT
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he is salty huh Ammon! Ha!
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2005 - 02:00pm PT
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Wow! good luck towards your future health, Burt.
I remember when Mark Klemens hurt his back and he could barely walk 30 meters without serious pain many years ago. He hasn't recovered since. I felt terrible knowing how much he valued being able to be active and having that loss.
Best wishes, Werner
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 02:41pm PT
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Yes, salty.
As in: brackish - not appealing to the taste.
Personally, I like a ton of salt. Good to hear you're doing better Burt.
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Hey Ammon,
Nice discussion! I'm goin for the Muir Wall and will be in the Valley for my first time on June 12th. It would be sweet to see you again and obsorbe some of that GO FAST (sorry, I mean GO EFFICIENT)energy! You and Brian Keep it up! What you guys are doing deffinatly feeds "ME" more than stuff Climbing magazine like to print! If we don't catch up in the Valley, get ahold of me next time you come to ZION. I've done a few FA's in the park and around the park I'd like to BRAG about, HAHAHA!
See Ya!
Steve (in Hurricane)
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Fly'n Brian
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas
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you guys are turning me into a cyber geek!
i checked this post again. thanks for the backup burt!
i'm glad no one is psyched and ammon............
well, you can call me whatever you want. you still gotta climb with me!
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clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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BooOIIING, FFFFFFAST. JEDI you readdy the three big stones in three years, errr how about three weeks?????????
Have funb all you go getters, fast means more and in the theme of capitolism more is better, get some hippies get some.
Well any way have fun, and yes efficient is relative to the party, so stive to be your best and you will be rewarded graciously. Another half ass,
Crochie
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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WOW...
I haven't looked at this thread in sometime, indeed reminscent of the old supertacos slander fests.
Im a wannabe fan, in 98 I climbed Lost in America a day behind Russ, Eric, and Leo, they climbed it in a day...zammo!
Like I said the next two days we fixed and launched. In the time it took us to top out Russ and Eric climbed both Native Son and the Sheep Ranch in pushes...I was like damn kid, you have to step it up. I spent all of my energies on climbing. Trying so hard, trying so hard... Somewhere all this time Ammon comes along and just starts shredding, I think I was in the Valley the summer he soloed Sea of Dreams, soon he's shredding everything. I am trying hard to climb my best too, why? Becuz nothing is sicker than climbing the big stones fast with a great friend...I had a great friend too. We managed some (impressive to us) pushes of walls here and there, trying stupid sh#t like a push of SMash the State in winter on the Diamond (tried).
Ammon slowly ticked along being rad...I was jealous, motivated, driven, I didn't want to be a fan, I wanted to be a peer...
Just before a trip to the Valley I glanced through one of the mags...AMmon and Brian, PSD in under 24....my world collapsed. That was so fuqing rad I couldn't even register it on my map. An old college buddy did the second ascent with Kevin Thaw way back, and spoke very highly of it (and the surfboard)
The shizer just never stopped coming from either Brian or Ammon, Latitudes, Swiss American, all the el cap stuff, and I'd venture a healthy list none of us are privy too.
So dudes...don't trip, there are us underground types that dig what your upto...fuqing aspire to charge like that, and carry our dimly lit flame the way you carry the Olympic torch.
Sadly, these days I am more of a fan than peer, but I don't give a fuq. I've got broken bones, missing limbs and as many emotional scars as the rest of us from climbing carnage. The second I can tie in you better fuqing believe I'm coming after you and Brian...I'll never get there, but I'm coming in my own little way, because you guys inspire me to charge!
So many great climbers don't get their due in the "media" as if you could call the two rags that...urban climber soon to overcome it all!!!
How many people know the names Rolo, Copp, Cordes, Wharton, DeCapio, Haulenbaugh, or Pennings?
These guys have rewritten how it goes down in the last few years, concurrently with Brian and Ammon... I mention the others only to point out that the unknowns are out there charging too!
The list is endless.
I dig your point about efficiency Ammon, we rarely took watches, we just said try your hardest and keep going up. We were never fast enuff for a watch to matter.
Anyway, just wanted to write my own little love poem and shout out that all the stuff you guys are upto blows my fuqing mind.
A fan,
Brent
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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uhhhh....ditto that last post!
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2005 - 12:57am PT
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Thanks for the props Brent. We should hook up and launch a route one of these days. We are ALL peers.... even the 5.6 climbers who started two months ago.
Brian, I wasn't doing any name calling... haa haa haa. I was just pointing out the fact that you are NOT one of the SHEEP. Therefore, some people might not like your frankness.
I’ll never forget the quote you sent me.......
"The price of being a sheep is boredom. The price of being a wolf is loneliness. Choose one or the other with great care." --Unknown Author
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G.D.
Trad climber
Boise, Idaho
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Hay Ammon,
I should mention the sheep dog and his place in life... We (Shannon, the Kids, and I) will be in the valley around the secound week in July. I'll tell you about the sheep dog then if your interested.
Greg
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2005 - 02:32am PT
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Present rules that we follow.... cut and pasted from Hans' website: (speedclimb.com)
If a topo of the route ends, but there is still 100 ft of 5.8 left, you don't stop the clock until you get to where a normal party would walk off the route, even if your team has coiled the rope and begun the solo/walk off.
If your haul bag or rope is stuck 80 or even 20 ft down from the finish of the route, you can't stop your time until all your belongings are at the spot where you would walk off.
Stashing gear, food, water, on a route, with the intention of using it for a future speed ascent is not the "best style". - It should be FULLY noted in your report of the ascent. Lying only cheats you not me.
Just getting psyched!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 11, 2005 - 02:06pm PT
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I only just stumbled across this. A shame as it was my "not a big fan" comment that apparentlt started it.
I feel its important to mention that the context was talking of clean Zion walls. Ripping nuts out of placements to clean them causes REAL damage.
Trouble is the placements wear out even with careful use. I myself used a technique in a recent video that I now regret in retrospect (body yanking nuts when I lacked the ability to tap them loose).
Ultimately Matt hit the nail on the head when he said 'without screwing up the experience for others'. I think we are quickly approaching a time when route erosion will have a strong adverse effect on our ability to climb.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2005 - 03:30pm PT
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Hey Ron,
Actually, it was not your comment that started this. The ironic thing is that the person who DID make the comment... recently hacked his way up a semi-obscure Zion route, leaving fixed pins and blown placements in his wake.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 30, 2015 - 02:56pm PT
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10 year FlyN'Brian and Ammon bump to the top! Wish Brian was here to talk about his single aider system.
Did I get that right? Single aider?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jul 30, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
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Fly'n Brian
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas
May 30, 2005 - 01:47am PT
hey guys,
i just checked in to see what's happening with this topic. i also just got done reading the golden piton speed climbing award in the mag. i'll say straight up that what started this whole thread was that ammon and i feel sleighted and disrespected by the decision to give the award to the huber's for zodiac. bottom line.
i couldn't believe the slander at the start of the page referring to how sick of time reports the people at climbing mag have recieved over the years and how they won't have to report anymore speed times on el cap because what the huber's did was so impressive.
i'll have to say i've never sent any climbing times on anything to anyone except hans and really don't know who has. if it's so rediculous to have a speed record why is the huber's zodiac time impressive? why was the fod of the nose climbing news? why is the fod of plastic surgery disaster not climbing news?
i like werner's approah and posts. i continually try to get myself back to the place where my personal climbing experience is the most important. that is why i do not pursue media exposure. i want climbing to be a much deeper and fulfilling experience than being showcased in glamour magazine. i've got to say it's a bit difficult when numerous climbers around me are recieving money and support for debatedly comparable climbing endeavors.
Fly'n Brian
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas
May 30, 2005 - 02:22am PT
well i missed a few posts before i wrote the last bit of dribble. who is this dudley guy? thanks to those who tried to set that spraycan straight. i don't want to expose my sensitivity TOO much anymore so i'll just have to tell dudley, (you're quite uninformed and i apologize for dispelling my respected role model status)
see ammon, wasn't that nice! why do you think i'm abrasive?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 11:13am PT
Ok Brian, maybe abbrasive wasn't the right word.
Synonyms are everything from rude to rough, to uncompromising.
How about SALTY? Haa HAAaa haa!!!
Cheers!
Burt
climber
Sin City
May 31, 2005 - 01:15pm PT
Sorry Ammon and Brian, I just have to comment. Who the f*#k does dudley think he is? Brian is the only climber that climbs at the caliber that he does and does not toot his own horn. But I understand his frustrations. He has been passed up for grants, sponsorships, and all of the other benifits that "pro" climbers are getting that can hardly lead without getting the shakes. I mean come on, the Great Trango in a push style ascent, or to climb a f*#king decent gully on the Mooses Tooth and call it the most rad thing in the world? What would you like to read about? I have spent many nights in a ledge, hanging in a harness, or stuck out on lead (for way too long on a push ascent) with Brian and he has nothing but positive and encoucouraging words for me. I have seen some of the most amazing feats done on some of the raddest routes around. (all of his big wall routes are unreapeated until just a few months ago when Ammon just sent Saurons Eye nice send Ammon!) I brought Jim Bridwell home from Mesquite, nv on long night and he had nothing but the upmost respect for Brian. He said that the Bears Tooth went down because Brian was on his team. His first time ever climbing ice was on the sharp end 5000 f*#king thousand feet up the Bears Tooth on one of Alaska's "Last Great Problems" So tell me again dudley, where do you get your info? I could go on forever just about the climbing that we have done together (which is 1% of the climbing that he has done) but I will leave that for my memories. I had bad climbing accident june 23 2004, I broke my back, legs, feet, pelvis, all that good stuff, Brian was by myside everyday for the first 2 weeks that I was in ICU and he was there almost everyday after that. I owe him my unbeliveible recovery, my spirits while being down, I owe him my life. So sorry if this sounds like a gay love poem but you hit a cord with me. So F*#k off dudley you don't know what the f*#k you are talking about.
WBraun
climber
May 31, 2005 - 01:29pm PT
Burt
Have you recovered or are you still rehabilitating your body? Please feel no offense I’m truly interested after such a serious injury.
Burt
climber
Sin City
May 31, 2005 - 01:52pm PT
My recovery was nothing short of a miricle as my doctor put it. They told me that I wouldn't walk until Dec. 25th, 6 months after my surgery. (I broke L1, L2, L3 which are now fused) and I started walking on my 29th day. I went climbing for the first time 3 months after (still tr 5.10!) and did my first lead that same day! I was climbing strong and I really just forgot that it happened then I was t-boned by a lady doing 50 mph which started my recovery all over again. I am doing better but I have lost some fight but I'll get there again. I still have problems with my feet (broke both of them) and my back isn't as strong as it used to be (no more 150 lbs haulbags!) But I am doing good. thanks for asking.
Fly'n Brian
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas
May 30, 2005 - 01:47am PT
hey guys,
i just checked in to see what's happening with this topic. i also just got done reading the golden piton speed climbing award in the mag. i'll say straight up that what started this whole thread was that ammon and i feel sleighted and disrespected by the decision to give the award to the huber's for zodiac. bottom line.
i couldn't believe the slander at the start of the page referring to how sick of time reports the people at climbing mag have recieved over the years and how they won't have to report anymore speed times on el cap because what the huber's did was so impressive.
i'll have to say i've never sent any climbing times on anything to anyone except hans and really don't know who has. if it's so rediculous to have a speed record why is the huber's zodiac time impressive? why was the fod of the nose climbing news? why is the fod of plastic surgery disaster not climbing news?
i like werner's approah and posts. i continually try to get myself back to the place where my personal climbing experience is the most important. that is why i do not pursue media exposure. i want climbing to be a much deeper and fulfilling experience than being showcased in glamour magazine. i've got to say it's a bit difficult when numerous climbers around me are recieving money and support for debatedly comparable climbing endeavors.
Fly'n Brian
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas
May 30, 2005 - 02:22am PT
well i missed a few posts before i wrote the last bit of dribble. who is this dudley guy? thanks to those who tried to set that spraycan straight. i don't want to expose my sensitivity TOO much anymore so i'll just have to tell dudley, (you're quite uninformed and i apologize for dispelling my respected role model status)
see ammon, wasn't that nice! why do you think i'm abrasive?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 11:13am PT
Ok Brian, maybe abbrasive wasn't the right word.
Synonyms are everything from rude to rough, to uncompromising.
How .
And bump again for the aim of doing it for the right reason. No one is pure, but try. . .
There is a lot of the best in those few posts.
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 30, 2015 - 05:14pm PT
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yeah some good stuff on here I have never seen this thread before. poignant considering what happened in the future. thanks for the bump.
Fly on Brian
as far as Dudley was concerned there was a clue in the name
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jul 30, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
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Couchmaster, yes Brian used a single aider, custom made by Misty Mountain out of 2" webbing. Though he told me when it got difficult he employed a second aider, about 36" long with several steps made out of stiff 1/2" webbing.
I only saw him doing serious aid once, on a grade V first ascent on "Notgonnasayit Wall" so I can't explain his technique as well as Burt or Ammon could. He definitely moved with efficiency on the stone.
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Jul 30, 2015 - 10:55pm PT
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Who the f*#k is that klaus noob
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 30, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
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Whoa! One from the wayback machine!
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Stevee B
Trad climber
Oakland, CA
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Jul 31, 2015 - 08:07am PT
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Scroll up and read that Brent A post if you haven't already. Great stuff. Great thread!
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