Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
alik
Big Wall climber
edmonton
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2005 - 09:46pm PT
|
gotcha. hey dude wanna do the nose IAD this summer?
|
|
Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2005 - 10:20pm PT
|
It's all good. I've had great adventures on everything from single pitch epics where I never even found the single pitch I was seeking to speed-jugging a route that I'd been on 3 times just to see if I could do it faster.
Adventure and efficiency seem to be more opposite than alike in my experiences. When I'm really climbing efficiently, the adventure factor seems to be much lower than when I'm in over my head and scratching my ass trying to figure out what the hell I'm supposed to do next. Maybe that's just me...
|
|
Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2005 - 10:39pm PT
|
Hey Werner,
You’re absolutely right!!!
I guess this all spawned from an email I got this morning. The person said they were not a big fan of “speedclimbing”.
It’s not the first time someone categorized me as a “speedclimber” and I was a little bit offended (I’ve actually used this term in the past for lack of a better one).
For some reason this terminology is frowned upon by the rest of the climbing community. People think that we’re just up there hacking and thrashing our way to glory and don’t care about the damage we do, while at it.
I started thinking about it (not for the first time) and came to the conclusion that I’m more of an “efficient-climber” than a “speedclimber”. I wasn’t trying to put any other style down, just stating the style “I” like to climb in.
So, I posted my thoughts and asked for everyone else’s. Maybe I didn’t choose my words carefully enough.
Cheers-
|
|
bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2005 - 10:44pm PT
|
F*#king hells ya Alik ive been waiting for you to ask! lol
hardy har har
~TY~
|
|
bigwalling
climber
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2005 - 11:06pm PT
|
alik and puke... either of you guys want to do some of the more aid intensive stuff in a push? It would be cool for the young monkeys to send!
|
|
Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2005 - 11:14pm PT
|
I was always impressed by Gerberding, Stowe, etc. in their speed ascents because they don't necessarily fit the Hollywood image of rock warriors like the Hubers do. They were ticking off so many 24 hour ascents of hard, hard routes in the 90's and it always blew me away. I agree with some of those above in that they are definitely different styles. You can't climb hard stuff like that in the frantic manner that gets you a sub-2 hour time like you were on the Nose. Hans is a super comptetive guy but he is always ready to buy someone beer if he gets beat. It takes a lot of intensity to climb like that, and it isn't something we should all necessarily aspire to. I still give him mad props for doing what he has done....and after all he enjoys it and who is he hurting?
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2005 - 11:18pm PT
|
Ammon,
considering all your "speed" records on El Cap...it wouldn't strike me as odd to hear someone describe you as a "speedclimber." Although I agree that what you are out to do vs what people like Dean, Hans, the Hubers, etc. are out to do are completely different.
personaly I think onsighting hard stuff in a push is way more prowd then the cardiovascular excersize that the Nose has become.
I don't think either term is the right or wrong word to use to describe it. I mean, trying to shave one minute off a 3,000ft climb could be descibed as the ultimate test in effeciency as well.
either way you need to take that sh#t down to Patagonia where push climbing is a style spawned out of nescesity rather then just something to do for fun when bored in the Valley. if you don't it'd be a waste of a great talent IMHO, that place is incredible.
[edit:] huh, I guess Spin and I were typing on the same wavelength there...
|
|
bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2005 - 11:18pm PT
|
Im down for it any time Wally you gonna be there this summer? Ive got some BIG sh#t planned for this year. O yes indeed.
As soon as i get the money to fix my truck ill be down there.
~TY~
|
|
bigwalling
climber
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2005 - 11:33pm PT
|
I will be there around mid june and stay till mid september. I need to get lots done!
|
|
bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2005 - 12:02am PT
|
sweet dude!
hey ammon have you ever done Swoop Gimp in zion? it looks pretty sweet
~TY~
|
|
chris v
climber
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2005 - 01:11am PT
|
Ammon,
I really agree with your point here. I was never into speed climbing for a variety of reasons, but efficient climbing has always fascinated me. I really don't like climbing against time, I've probably carried a watch on like 2 walls total. Nothing beats the feeling of climbing as light as possible and just going for it especially on a route you've never done before for just the sake of doing it.
Nothing against those who do carry watches and follow the seconds closely. It's just not for me.
Without a time it takes away all the BS details too. like when people ask how fast I did a route I just tell them I don't know. Or I say something like "in daylight".
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
running springs, ca
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2005 - 01:26am PT
|
SPINMASTER we still need to get on the Lowe Route in a day. Seriously get yer ass back in shape and solo some walls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
|
|
alik
Big Wall climber
edmonton
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2005 - 01:47am PT
|
Bigwalling, I'm totally down for the more aid intensive sh#t as well. In fact, I'm a pretty weak free climber. I only step out of my aiders on a wall when I really have to.
You, me and tyler are gonna have to send some sh#t this summer.
|
|
bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2005 - 01:52am PT
|
I like free climbing better.... so we have a dream team flyin now!
hardy har
~TY~
"A flippin twelve gauge what do you think!"
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2005 - 03:06pm PT
|
I did a bunch of speed climbing using various approaches and the one that stands out as the most fun and biggest adventure is when Dale Bard and I did the 2nd ODA of El Cap (if this actually qualifies) via the West Face, on sight, mostly free, in 5 hours. Racing up known terrain is great fun, but not high advdenture.
JL
|
|
Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2005 - 05:18pm PT
|
Hey John,
Of course that qualifies!! I wonder why your ascent never got recorded. Hans has done a pretty good job keeping track of noteworthy ascents like this but this is the first time I've heard of it.
He has a page here:
http://www.speedclimb.com/yosemite/2nd3rds.htm
That would fit this ascent perfectly. I think it's important to have the record straight when it comes to history like this. Some of the stuff you guys were doing were WAY before your time and has changed the way we approach big walls, today.
Cheers-
|
|
wildone
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2005 - 05:40pm PT
|
Last summer I got a chance to hump a load to TT for Scott Stowe and watch him climb the first pitch before I had to get on with my plans for the day. It was quite a treat, for sure. I almost missed all of it. He racked up, and I was cleaning the junk out from between my toes with a stick and by the time I looked up, he was halfway done with the first pitch! I mean, I couldn't believe it. And until Ammon brought up this topic, I hadn't really understood why seeing that had so awed me at the time. I've seen a few people climb fast, but scott looked like he was just climbing like the rest of us but the ground he covered really killed me.
my .02
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2005 - 10:33pm PT
|
There were a lot of speed ascents from the 60s and early 70s that I think have been forgotten, probably because generally the thing was to just do the climb in a day--the whole counting minutes thing came in much later. During the 1st ODA of the Nose, we could have gone much faster, it's just that when we got to the top of the Boot, at 7:30 in the morning, we knew we had it and just cruised from there, enjoying ourselves. Just the same, you've got to be impressed by just how fast some of these guys have gone. I think an on-sight speed record would be a nice addition to the list.
JL
|
|
BillWright
Trad climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2005 - 06:35pm PT
|
Ammon,
You wrote in your first post: "On one hand you have guys like Hans (no disrespect) who are frantically climbing when they are going for records. They run-it-out, cut corners and yell a lot at their partners."
Then you stated this: "If you've ever had the opportunity to watch an 'efficient-climber' you will notice they are NOT in a hurry at all. They are usually calm and collective."
You make a number of good points, but let me start with this. If you've ever had the opportunity to watch Hans on a speed ascent you will notice that he is NOT in a hurry either. I know this sounds unbelievable to many climbers, but I watched his and Yuji's record ascent of the Nose and I videoed it. I just watched it again last night and it is so slow you have to watch it at high speed motion. I plan to put some clips of it up on my website in the future.
Anyway, back to the speed record. These guys climbed the Nose in 2h48m. You'd think they were just running up the rock, but they aren't. They ARE moving very efficiently. They ARE moving very continuously. And, yes, they ARE taking some big chances, but for them these aren't huge risks. Yuji does run things out massively on 5.10 (and even on 5.12 on his Lurking Fear speed ascent), but Yuji climbs 5.15 and this is like me running out a 5.5 pitch. It isn't that crazy. For him.
I'm giving a speed show at Neptune Mountaineering later this month and I was going to show Yuji's lead of the first 5.10+ pitch of the Nose. It doesn't look anything like that wild speed solo of Dan Osman on Bear's Reach at Lover's Leap near Tahoe (on some climbing video). Yuji is very methodical and it doesn't look all that impressive until you notice that he just led a 150-foot 5.10+ pitch in about 4 minutes (this is only 6 inches per second). The key is the efficiency. He almost never stops moving on the entire ascent. They simul-climbed 90% of the route.
So, even this extreme of speed climbing is really efficient climbing. They aren't frantic and they aren't running. But they are moving efficiently and continuously up 3000 feet of rock, most of which is 5.10 or harder. That's impressive.
Is this as adventurous as your one-day, onsight, second ascents? No. Every climb isn't a huge adventure. At least for most of us. I love the adventure aspects of climbing and for the first ten years of my climbing career, I almost never repeated a route for this reason. Now I see climbing as more than just an adventure, though that is by far my favorite aspect. Sometimes, like when I do easy solos in the Flatirons above Boulder, it is just a respite from the run into the climb. Sometimes it's just a physical workout, done in a beautiful place. Sometimes it is a big adventure on a new (for me - I'll leave the first ascents to you experts), backcountry, alpine route. Sometimes it is working a sport project in Boulder canyon. And, sometimes, it is just to see how fast I can safely go on rock - to see how much climbing I can possibly get done in the two hours before I have to go to work on a weekday morning.
You know all this and I know (and you stated) that you meant no disrespect to "speed climbing." I just wanted to make it clear to others that even the really fast speed climbs don't look crazy, but look very methodical.
Oh, and Hans doesn't yell at his partners any more than a non-speedclimbing team. In fact, he communicates much less per pitch than probably any other type of climbing. The difference is two-fold: the climbing is compressed into a shorter time period and the climbers are very rarely near each other and hence the raised voices - merely to be heard, not to berate his partner to greater speed.
A great, fun discussion. I hope we can hook up for a route sometime. We've discussed it in the past, but no luck so far. I'd love to see such great, efficient aid climbing up close. Just like many others that posted here, I can't imagine how fast you climb those scary aid pitches.
Bill
|
|
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2005 - 07:19pm PT
|
Every time that ammon posts something about speed climbing i love reading it.. because i hope to find a lists of tips on how to climb smoother.. and more efficiently...
Ammon .. you should write a how-to guide for efficient wall climbing.
I have to second Werner's post though -- its about the experience.. I've loved every second of both of my slow-ass ascents of el-cap (7 days each) .. but i would LOVE to become a more efficient climber .. (and quickly too) ..
.. hopefully this year i'll get my first IAD ascent of something short.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!