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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 10, 2019 - 02:06pm PT
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Mr Handdanny I just figured there had to be a story there. Im sure it meant a lot to
You. The first ascent made quite the story that we all saw; basement cracks, traveling a around the world, warming up on that host of other hard Offwidths. Pinkpointing, returning, cleaning that up etc.
You must have a story as well! Did You, train In a basement for two years? How long did you work on it? How many times did you make the trek? Surely there is a story in there to share in narrative form, isn’t there?
That’s all really
I went out there a couple times, two fall seasons in a row. Did all the
moves, worked on putting it together then dislocated my shoulder canyoneering. Still rehabbing from that, ( healing is slower in your sixties) currently, but I have acguired a 4wd again and plan to head back in the fall, & have a bunch of other projects out there as well. Don’t have space to put a roof crack machine at home though, so am🚂 ing inother ways..,
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 10, 2019 - 02:33pm PT
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So Ryan, if you really had so little to do with creating this route, ( and I remember finding you bivvying on my family room floor when I got up early for work, often before dawn, over half a dozen weekends, while it was being worked on..) what gave you, a relatively green climber, the notion that you had any business chopping somebody else’s creation? Kinda cheeky, to say the least. Was it due to that unfortunate series of concussions you sustained?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 10, 2019 - 04:07pm PT
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As Donini suggested, it's kinda interesting how offwidth climbing has gone from a type of climbing that the average climber found hard-for-the-grade to a type of climbing where, with a little work, you can apparently approach climbing at the 5.13 grade.
I don't like bashing people, but I do think that grades are an interesting point of discussion. I've done lots of 5.11 offwidths over my 48 years of climbing, although it never constituted more than maybe 5% of my climbing diet overall. Realistically, I'm a somewhat bigger guy for a climber (180 lbs), and I always found offwidths easier for the grade than other types of climbing, where being light was more important. For a long time I considered myself a 5.11 overall climber and maybe a 5.11+ offwidth climber. I mean, back in the '70's when I actually climbed more than a few days a month, there just weren't that many offwidths graded harder than 5.11+.
Bob Scarpelli is a good example of a climber with my mindset (not to mention age). Although Bob's climbs are considered underrated by most modern climbers, most climbers, in general, are deficient in good offwidth technique. With good technique, offwidth climbs should be comparable to other types of climbing for the same grade. Personally, I think that some of Bob's climbs are 5.12-, but, like him, I considered 5.12 as an elite grade that I could achieve only when the climb really fit my dimensions and sweet spot (bigger than knees - I have big knees, dammit).
It's only since being on Supertopo that I even considered offwidth climbing as a distinct climbing pursuit. And, seemingly out of the blue, the offwidth standard jumped from 5.11+ to 5.13+. But many of those supposed 5.13 climbs suddenly seemed to be within my reach as a 62 year-old weekend warrior, despite the fact that I still can't do some of Scarpelli's 5.11s. It's a first world problem, but I would call it grade inflation, pure and simple. The idea of me climbing a 5.13 non-offwidth climb would be ludicrous to me and the people I climb with. Clearly, something is out-of-whack in the offwidth climbing scene
Btw, anybody participating here done Air Voyage, in the Black Canyon? I'm pretty sure that this is the only consensus 5.12(-) that I ever on-sighted.
Greg Cameron
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 10, 2019 - 05:42pm PT
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I would put Air Voyage between the Monster and Crack of Doom - 11-. Definitely easier than, say, that Pink-whatever Scarpelli 11- route in Vedauwoo. The Caveat is I did it a few weeks after you posted your beta to MP.com and I had that ginormous rack you posted. OMG, was that a joke? I had to hang not because I was tired or about to fall, it's that I just couldn't deal with all that gear. So - my grade-o-meter could be off. I lead the Monster (eventually), direct variation from below the Ear, as a 70m rope stretcher, with a single cam - have always wanted to go back to Air Voyage and clean up that little taint in my history, leading it the same way.
Also, regarding grade comparisons - really, I think these 11 OW’s rank even with other trad crack routes. The grades should assume perfect technique and after a few laps they tend to merge. I’ve also done numerous 13’s up and down the spectrum in super-consensus areas like Rifle and elsewhere - trad, sport, cracks and limestone all over the country. There’s simply no comparison. I’m not going to repeat my rants of earlier posts except to say if you’ve never climbed a consensus 13+ on bolts, there’s no way in hell you’re doing it in the OW.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 10, 2019 - 06:25pm PT
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Thanks, JLP, I suspected 5.11+. To tell you the truth, I had no idea of Air Voyage's consensus. I had just never seen postings from anybody else who had led it, so I was going with the FA rating, alas!
Back to, I am nowhere near a 5.12 climber (and I'm fine with that).
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 10, 2019 - 06:32pm PT
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Mine's a BS data point - no RP!
11+ - sure - maybe - I dunno - check out Brother from Another in the photo upthread - maybe watch the video - that's 12- to me - tons of consensus.
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Mrhandstack
Trad climber
Sandy, Utah
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May 10, 2019 - 06:52pm PT
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Hey Jay, I thought TR meant top rope but now I realize you meant trip report:)
I'd be happy to do a full write up but I'll give you the bullet points here.
I did a one year training plan through Lattice that Tom essentially morphed out of his and Pete's two year training plan. Since I had about 5 years experience and had climbed 13C at that point Tom figured that half of their training would suffice.
The training was mostly on the crack machines in my garage and started out as 50 minute sessions and slowly grew in length as well as difficulty. I did a trip down early last fall and climbed it in 20' sections and then pinpointed the roof.
The three weeks prior to my send I did mock red points (in the garage) where I would hang a 12lbs sandbag from my harness and go as slow as I could. The first week I had a 17 minute 100' session, the second week I did a 24 minute 140' session, and the week prior to Century I had a 35 minute 200' session.
After those three weeks I took a week to rest, drove down and redpointed on my first attempt. I was really close to failure several times on the route and still don't know how I managed to stick the pivot at the end of the roof. In all I was on the route for 37 minutes 27 of those being inverted.
It was one hell of an experience that really trashed my body. Those last three sessions took me about 5 to 6 days of recovery each and Century took me about two weeks except my hamstring which I noticed on the hike out wasn't working very well and is only now starting to feel alright (I suspect it partially tore).
If anyone were looking for advice I would say that a crack machine is almost mandatory and that training with extra weight is crucial for building up the endurance in your feet and ankles.
I still feel like I got pretty damn lucky and would like to go back and have another go on it as it truly was a ton of fun to climb.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 10, 2019 - 07:33pm PT
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Bingo! Thanks! Sorry for the confusion about “ TR”! I didn’t catch what the question was.! Hat was pretty succinct thanks. Got the facts would love to hear the story sometime.
Now to Intiigrate this
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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May 10, 2019 - 08:26pm PT
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I think it is not fair for Mr. Randall to assume that the moves that worked for him should have worked for anyone else, and it is downright insulting and condescending to claim that a move that required his full 6'+ wing span ( see image https://cdn-uploads.mountainproject.com/forum/106196.jpg ) would work for someone of a 4ft index. Sure, he can argue that his arms and chest were not completely flat against the rock, but it does not take a pro to know that you need at least some flex in your span when climbing a fridge. He looked quite strained to me in that picture.
And then it is frustrating to witness some internet spectators claim certain moves would have worked for a climber purely based on photos from another totally different climber.
I'm by no means a defender of Ms. Pam, and fully respect Randall and Whittaker's personal experiences, but I also respect Ms. Pam's personal experience. Number ratings change nothing in a climber's personal experience. I'm just calling out injustice as I see it.
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jonnywoodward
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 08:54pm PT
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Let's face it. Offwidth climbing is manly. Wrinkle in the back manliness. Unless you've trained in Yosemite for multiple seasons you wouldn't know. You practically had to have been born under the Generator Crack to be any good. Or conceived, anyway. Were those Wide Brits born under the Generator. Nooooooo. I hate them. They soloed my hard offwidth. Do you know how much my feelings were hurt by that? Those giant stainless steel testicles have been small knee-scraping peas for two years now. But what this thread has taught me is that there is hope. There are people on here who can help with my hurt feelings. Please, start a new thread for me. For the stainless.
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WBraun
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 09:32pm PT
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LOL ....
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Surfandstone
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 10:10pm PT
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HOHMANN melonhead
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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May 11, 2019 - 07:13am PT
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Thank you for a fascinating insight into climbing community.
Frankly speaking I was confused by such heated exchange of opinions.
Is this mostly about establishing a pecking order in a fight for limited sponsors money?
Is this not personal but strictly business?
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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May 11, 2019 - 07:22am PT
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I just realize that Century Crack has second accent!
congratulations Mrhandstack and it would be very interesting to read more about this.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 11, 2019 - 07:47am PT
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On further reflection, offwidth climbing just has more techniques than other types of climbing, and it's hard to be equally good at all because there are trade-offs. Before maybe 20 years ago, I only had three; armbar, chicken wing, and (squeeze) chimney. Now there's various types of stacking and inverts. I still opt for the armbar over hand stacking more often than not and have never even done an invert. Fist size, knee size, and shoulder size along with height I guess will often dictate which technique to go with. Regardless of technique, being in good cardiovascular shape is a must (and definitely a weak link in my game). I guess it's no wonder there is such a controversy in grades. Off to Vedauwoo...
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2019 - 08:19am PT
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Offwidth is generally a difficult discipline to master because it is so unnatural.
Only select few are naturally drawn to it.
Most climbers try to steer clear of it or try to go around it.
Very select few actually seek it out ......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2019 - 08:25am PT
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eeyonkee, I guess that if you had three techniques you didn’t need my favorite - the thrash.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 11, 2019 - 11:27am PT
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I think I could find at least a dozen different things I do with my hands between .4 and 1 Camalots, and that's just my hands. I would expect that to expand as I improve. I'm not the best there is at it. I still use tape and get gobies anyway. Climbing is a technical sport. OW is the same.
I don't think it's any more than the obvious - OW is generally unpleasant physical pig wrestling, and it's a minority of naturally available climbing.
Being able to do them well ought to imply a high level of well roundedness and mastery of all that is climbable and I think this has been the traditional perception and reality - until recently.
However, if it's all you do, to the extent you can't even sink a handjam and throw for a LB jug - coupled with some wildly inflated grades - then it really seems to me the draw is that this overall mastery of sport is implied - all the recognition, less the talent and hard work - what better draw for the ego?
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Ballo
Trad climber
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May 11, 2019 - 12:41pm PT
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Offwidth is awesome because it demonstrates mastery of a difficult skill. Once I led a 5.11 OW in the creek and some small chick followed it, but she did it so damned smooth I was slack-jawed.
If your ego is offended by people good at that thing, maybe you should get better or just celebrate their abilities. I never got offended at Michael Jordan dunking basketballs.
With regards to the climbing drama, isn't this sh#t getting kinda old? People get offended when I'm honest about grades, but honestly maybe people shouldn't get offended by opinions. If someone misses a reachable hold on a face climb and the grade is soft as a result....who cares?
Shut up and climb
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