Devils Tower Voluntary June Closure: What are your thoughts?

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blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 16, 2017 - 10:44am PT
Is it funny to anyone else that we are arguing about a 'voluntary' closure?

Some volunteer some don't. Do we yell at those and condemn those who don't volunteer for say, Yosemite Facelift or a trail maintenance day at your local crag?

I believe there is a threat (implicit of explicit) to close Devils Tower to climbing for more than June (perhaps all year, perhaps just in months having good weather) if the "voluntary closure" doesn't cause the number of June climbers to trend to zero.

Lucas--is my belief correct?

Also Lucas, you didn't answer any of the follow-up questions I asked in response to one of your previous posts, copied below.

Lucas:
The closure happens in June because our modern world follows the Roman calendar. It would be difficult to manage a closure that follows a lunar calendar or ceremonies that may take place at different times each year
.

Blah:
It's difficult to tell people the date or dates when something will happen, so you just "round off" to the nearest month?

Let's make this concrete: what date or dates will there be ceremonies this year?
Do you know?
Can you find out?
Will there be any that are not in June?
What's the earliest date in June that the ceremonies happen?
What percentage of days in June are there ceremonies?
What times of day are the ceremonies typically at? How long do they typically last?
Where, specifically, do they occur?

The point of my questions is this:
I don't agree with the closure in principle but I am willing to consider not climbing at DT at any reasonably specific times and places when there are Indian ceremonies.
Are you willing to tell me what those times and places are?
Do you know?
Can you find out?
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
May 16, 2017 - 11:17am PT
are there any native americans who can explain the cultural significance and the closure

No. It was/is a solution in search of a non-existent problem.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
May 16, 2017 - 11:38am PT
Ken,
You simply do not have a leg to stand on.

Ken M. wrote:

the indians were at war with the United States. In any other war in history, they'd have simply been eradicated.

No they weren't. There never was any "Indian Wars". Only propaganda and a plan from the highest office in Washington to exterminate the Indian. The Indians ran from place to place, in desperation for survival, shepherding all their elderly, women and children, infants, their housing, tools, food and horses, everything they had against the military of U.S. dressed for war, who had no such baggage to worry about except saving their sorry asses.

The indians have the burden of assimilation into America, same as the polish, the Italians, the Mexican-Americans, and the rest. There comes a point where that needs to be the priority, not living in the past.

Oh, you mean eradication. Completely wipe out any remaining cultural identity they have left. You simply echo a long line of like minded oppressors before you.

I don't doubt that the American Indian got a raw deal. Nor do I doubt that they are starting on a starting line far back of the pack, and that is unfair.

Yes, like receiving shipments of blankets intentionally infected with small pox, orders from the Whitehouse to exterminate the bison, delivery of rotten meat and on and on and on.

However, when they choose to identify as a separate nation, as they often do, then I think of them like Canada or Mexico.

This one pretty much says all you need to identify yourself.

And now Ken M. you want to join in a discussion to impart your wisdom and compassion in order to lecture those against the voluntary closure at D.T. a place you have never even visited, let alone climbed. Go Ken!
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
May 16, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
so basically the NPS, Access Fund, local climbing organizations and those "damn injuns" all came together in a vast conspiracy to deny whyte privilege climbers from climbing during a SINGLE MONTH of the year 2 decades ago ...

No, BB. Just the NPS.
luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
It's difficult to tell people the date or dates when something will happen, so you just "round off" to the nearest month?

Let's make this concrete: what date or dates will there be ceremonies this year?
Do you know?
Can you find out?
Will there be any that are not in June?
What's the earliest date in June that the ceremonies happen?
What percentage of days in June are there ceremonies?
What times of day are the ceremonies typically at? How long do they typically last?
Where, specifically, do they occur?

To answer your questions: No I can not tell you this information. The Native Americans who have ceremonies at the tower are not required to inform the NPS of the ceremonies and they do NOT want this information shared. This is why the closure is one specific month out of the year.
luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
I have been a climbing ranger at Devils Tower for 2 summers. I don't have the personal knowledge that Dingus McGee has of the proceedings leading up to the creation of the climbing management plan and voluntary closure.

Personally, I have experienced some resentment from Native Americans towards climbing on the tower. I have also heard that some Native Americans do not have a problem with climbing on the tower.

The cross cultural education that is encouraged through a voluntary closure does not just extend to the climbing community, but the Native American community as well. The NPS plans to work with Native American youth this summer to engage them about climbing.


luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
The climbing management plan is not a document set in stone. It requires updates yearly and can be re-written. The entire plan can be read here: https://www.nps.gov/deto/planyourvisit/upload/1995-DETO-CMP.pdf




From the climbing management plan:

"It is within the existing authority of the monument Superintendent to close areas to certain activities to protect natural and cultural resources."

"The NPS maintains that future management actions could take place including a mandatory closure. The mandatory closure language is present to show that we are seriously committed to protecting a cultural resource and to acknowledge American Indian concerns. The NPS has the authority to implement a mandatory June closure, but hopes this will not be necessary."
Late Starter

Social climber
South Dakota
May 16, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
I'd wager a strong bet that Yosemite holds more cultural significance to certain Native American tribes....Where's their month? How about June in Yosemite? I propose a voluntary no climbing month? Which local tribal leaders can we notify? I'm sure there's at least one outspoken eternally oppressed white-blamer to notify/get on board. Where's the outrage now?

Ohhh, you don't climb at Devils Tower, you just want to call all White folks culturally oppressive.

How about we keep segregating people by groups(Asian, Black, White, Native), that way we can always fight?

All this BS race blaming is only getting worse.....
Late Starter

Social climber
South Dakota
May 16, 2017 - 12:45pm PT
I know your type...

The troll keeps feeding and feeding and feeding...

Post that selfie pic up...you know the one you got pissed about so you quit giving "valuable" advice on MP. Deactivated your account, right?

You didn't look to oppressed in that pic..HAHAHA

I'm sure I can find that pic somewhere....

BTW, it's white not whyte. I don't get it.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 16, 2017 - 12:52pm PT
It's difficult to tell people the date or dates when something will happen, so you just "round off" to the nearest month?

Let's make this concrete: what date or dates will there be ceremonies this year?
Do you know?
Can you find out?
Will there be any that are not in June?
What's the earliest date in June that the ceremonies happen?
What percentage of days in June are there ceremonies?
What times of day are the ceremonies typically at? How long do they typically last?
Where, specifically, do they occur?

To answer your questions: No I can not tell you this information. The Native Americans who have ceremonies at the tower are not required to inform the NPS of the ceremonies and they do NOT want this information shared. This is why the closure is one specific month out of the year.

Lucas, I suppose I should thank you for trying to answer my questions, but your answer is so evasive and non-responsive that I don't have any confidence that you're making much of an effort to answer questions (as you said you would in your first post) rather than just pushing your agenda.
It's fine if you want to just push an agenda, but then you should drop the "I'll answer your questions" shtick.

I still have no idea of how many days in June (or other months) there are Indian ceremonies, on what days in June (or other months) they typically occur (or are they randomly spread throughout June and/or other months?), where and at what time they take place, and how long they last.

I now understand you do not want to answer questions relating to specific ceremonies that may occur this year on the grounds that "they do NOT want this information shared." I'll note that it's not clear whether you any anyone else at NPS knows when the ceremonies will occur--I infer from your answer that neither you or anyone else at NPS knows that information, but please let me know if I'm mistaken. I am also curious how you know they don't want the information shared. Did they tell you that? Did someone at NPS tell you that? Something else? Are you sure that "they" all think alike?

Is it fair to say that you (or the NPS) serve as the spokesperson for some of the Indians with regards to the ceremonies? If so, which Indians do you speak for? Certain tribes?

In any event, can you try to answer the questions I asked generally, even if you can't or won't list specific information relating to upcoming ceremonies?

If not, is it because you don't know the answers, or because you don't want to answer for some other reason (presumably to keep this all a secret, at the Indians' request)?

Let me again make this clear: I am willing to not climb for certain days when there are Indian ceremonies. I'm much less willing not to climb for an arbitrary number of days (during peak climbing season) when, I believe, there are no Indian ceremonies occurring on the vast majority of those days.

If any of my beliefs are incorrect, I would like to be corrected, but your answer that is to the effect of "the Indians don't want you know this information" seems more consistent with the hypotheses that the entire "voluntary closure" is predicated on very dubious grounds.
Late Starter

Social climber
NA
May 16, 2017 - 12:56pm PT
This got dumb...

F*#k it...I hope they close it down. What's next on the list.

BTW, climbing ranger, dumb to resort to internet polling/opinions to form any basis that's meaningful. Nice sh#t-storm you're stirring up.

BB. I'm German-American, sorry that the geographical location whereupon I was birthed didn't include darker skin via evolution. You win.



WBraun

climber
May 16, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
LOL .....
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
May 16, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
I'm bummed that I missed out on seeing BareBreeder's selfie.

It seems to me, from reading the climbing Ranger's posts, that "voluntary" is a word of art. That is to say that if, over time, climbers don't co-operate with this voluntary closure the threat of a mandatory closure looms ahead.

My impression is that the NPS thinks in terms of missions. Missions, of course, are driven by a cause. This begs the question, does this sort of cross cultural co-education - with access to public lands hanging in the balance - have merit. DM's well written posts are working to change my thinking on this issue.

FWIW I've made the trip to climb at The Tower from CA about a half dozen times. It was Mike Caldwell, Tommy's old man, who introduced me to the place in about 1988. Since then about every three or four years. Stayed at Frank's a couple times, camped by the river other times. One of my fondest memories is the time Larry and I got high and went prairie dog watching. I almost gave myself a hernia laughing...
Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 16, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
I love lesbians, and voluntarily as well.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
May 17, 2017 - 04:54am PT
from luquitos,

from the Devils Tower Climbing Management Plan [CMP]

"It is within the existing authority of the monument Superintendent to close areas to certain activities to protect natural and cultural resources."

"The NPS maintains that future management actions could take place including a mandatory closure. The mandatory closure language is present to show that we are seriously committed to protecting a cultural resource and to acknowledge American Indian concerns. The NPS has the authority to implement a mandatory June closure, but hopes this will not be necessary."

What this statements from the CMP fails to note is that Supt Deb Ligget tried to use the cultural argument in the Petefish case. Judge Dowes said this case is not a cultural issue but it is a religious dispute. He told Deb Ligget to drop the subject of cultural issues.

The NPS land surrounding Devils Tower was/is for any measure devoid of any cultural artifacts. There are zero cultural artifacts on the sides or top of Devils Tower.

Edit: {Except the Stake Ladder is considered cultural as point out to me by WyoRockMan.}

The document luquitos cited is outdated and/or intentionally failed to make reference to the court case as it makes no reference to some very strict rulings the Federal Judiciary Court of Dowes imposed on Climbing/Reulations at Devils Tower. In other words the argument of cultural resource destruction has little meaning for Native Americans spiritual practices being bothered by climbers on the Tower as the court insists these are religious issues and not cultural issues.

In early court cases of religious practice interferences the courts have ruled that background effects cannot be construed as a prevention of a person to practice his religion. For example a church on a noisy street cannot close the public street on Sunday because the traffic noises interfere with the quietness they need for their religious practices.

Based on these interpretations the Native Americans or Park Service have no legal grounds to claim that climbers on the sides of Devils Tower are preventing Native Americans from practicing their religion. In other words they have to tolerate far visual infringements and noises like a jet airliner flying over head as they do not prevent them from practising their religion.

Supt Deb Ligget was also unsuccessful in initiating an argument that the Tower was the [their] very monument the Native Americans needed for their religious practices and it had to be free of any other people's presence.

For more judiciary thinking on allowable infringements to one's religious practices see Badoni v. Higginson and some other cases have good discussions on this matter.

It looks like when you practise your religion you cannot have it such that when you look out a window there can be no one in the view. But you do have the freedom to build your church without windows.




Late Starter

Social climber
NA
May 17, 2017 - 06:14am PT
Thank-You. ^^^
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
May 17, 2017 - 06:22am PT
Bump to put on the top of the page.

Thank you Dingus.


from luquitos,

from the Devils Tower Climbing Management Plan [CMP]

"It is within the existing authority of the monument Superintendent to close areas to certain activities to protect natural and cultural resources."

"The NPS maintains that future management actions could take place including a mandatory closure. The mandatory closure language is present to show that we are seriously committed to protecting a cultural resource and to acknowledge American Indian concerns. The NPS has the authority to implement a mandatory June closure, but hopes this will not be necessary."

What this statements from the CMP fails to note is that Supt Deb Ligget tried to use the cultural argument in the Petefish case. Judge Dowes said this case is not a cultural issue but it is a religious dispute. He told Deb Ligget to drop the subject of cultural issues.

The NPS land surrounding Devils Tower was/is for any measure devoid of any cultural artifacts. There are zero cultural artifacts on the sides or top of Devils Tower.

The document luquitos cited is outdated and/or intentionally failed to make reference to the court case as it makes no reference to some very strict rulings the Federal Judiciary Court of Dowes imposed on Climbing/Reulations at Devils Tower. In other words the argument of cultural resource destruction has little meaning for Native Americans spiritual practices being bothered by climbers on the Tower as the court insists these are religious issues and not cultural issues.

In early court cases of religious practice interferences the courts have ruled that background effects cannot be construed as a prevention of a person to practice his religion. For example a church on a noisy street cannot close the public street on Sunday because the traffic noises interfere with the quietness they need for their religious practices.

Based on these interpretations the Native Americans or Park Service have no legal grounds to claim that climbers on the sides of Devils Tower are preventing Native Americans from practicing their religion. In other words they have to tolerate far visual infringements and noises like a jet airliner flying over head as they do not prevent them from practising their religion.

Supt Deb Ligget was also unsuccessful in initiating an argument that the Tower was the [their] very monument the Native Americans needed for their religious practices and it had to be free of any other people's presence.

For more judiciary thinking on allowable infringements to one's religious practices see Badoni v. Higginson and some other cases have good discussions on this matter.

It looks like when you practise your religion you cannot have it such that when you look out a window there can be no one in the view. But you do have the freedom to build your church without windows.


I do take minor exception to the phrase of "There are zero cultural artifacts on the sides or top of Devils Tower."

The Rogers and Ripley stake ladder qualifies, by statute, as a cultural artifact.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
May 17, 2017 - 08:03am PT
Thanks Wyo rock Man,

Yes, I would have been more accurate and to the point to say, "No Native
American Artifacts on the sides of.."
Late Starter

Social climber
NA
May 17, 2017 - 09:56am PT
A non-American complaining about the US and Trump, who has no issues climbing on "the Chief" in Squamish, BC(I'm guessing at these assumptions of you).

I could lay out the irony if I wished to devote more time to you.

I don't like you, and your rhetoric is boring/not useful.
Late Starter

Social climber
NA
May 17, 2017 - 10:16am PT
Don't be lazy and internet crusade.

Make the phone calls yourself. Supertopo's represents a pretty narrow cross-section of people. If you wanted the opinions you could find them.

Try the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation...make it fun and randomly call some folks. Post up your findings to enlighten me.

Seems as if this thread is dying, as it should.

Folks such as Dingus Mcgee are the only ones bringing in anything relevant.
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