Devils Tower Voluntary June Closure: What are your thoughts?

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bearbreeder

climber
May 18, 2017 - 10:16pm PT
anything to show you to be a TRUMP supporter Jim !!!

anytime ;)

though obviously quite a few angry whyte pholkz here dun agree with it at all ...

Credit: bearbreeder

bearbreeder

climber
May 18, 2017 - 10:28pm PT
shiet did u jus call AZNs noh guuud at comedy =P

its amazing how many folks here claim to hate TRUMP and the REPUBLICANS yet dont give a damn about native american culture and artifacts ... just so they can climb a SINGLE MONTH of the year at a SINGLE site ..

some are even calling native americans "trashy" ...

of course if you are a TRUMP voter ... pass GO and collect 200 dollahz !!!!

;)
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
May 19, 2017 - 05:51am PT
Climbing ban upheld at Devils Tower

BITD some of our reliable news sources would completely misstate a court outcome:

see: http://www.hcn.org/issues/129/4123

But from another author writing on the outcome of the Petefish Court case

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp2/2/1448/2486784/

The NPS represents that it will not enforce the voluntary closure, but will instead rely on climbers' self-regulation and a new "cross-cultural educational program" "to motivate climbers and other park visitors to comply." Id. at 22.

In the final court case of Petefish teamed with Bear Lodge Multiple Use they lost all of the points of their case. In particular and I will say again that the court ruled the Park Service CMP not unconstitutional and they could use the wording Voluntary Closure

see these links for a couple slightly different reports on the outcome:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-10th-circuit/1211632.html

https://www.justice.gov/osg/brief/bear-lodge-v-babbitt-opposition

The Park Service at DETO can promulgate any line of words threatening closure they want with [false] words through the media much like any other agencies of our government has been known to do. But they have told the court [see above] that they will not enforce the voluntary close. I ask if you have a voluntary closure and start preventing June climbing what does it mean to say you have a voluntary closure?

The DETO Park Service can choose various means to educate climbers of the closure. Remember how some states ruled that women seeking abortions would have to watch a movie about pro life? Well, as a climber you do not have to watch any movies or listen to anyone on the topic of the closure prior to beginning your climb. I have my forms of respect for people and to uphold the form of action the NPS seeks of me runs counter to violating the US Court rulings on religious practice infringement. To do the counter action that the NPS requests does not meet my criteria of disrespect respect for Native Americans.

It would seem possible that during the month of June Devils Tower NPS could hire paid protesters ...folks a carrying signs and saying hurray for our side... to protest climbers on the Tower. How Fitting? A sign could read:

Get off the Fuxking Tower you assaholas, No respect for Injuns.

Bearbreeder you could make such a protester and a very good one. Come on out to Devils Tower, WY this June. Your relentless, mindless, repetitive chatter is what a sign carrying protester needs. Even though you would not be climbing I suggest wearing a helmet and face shield to protect your head lights. This is Wyoming. You could bring a sheep with you, but no bad mouthing Trump, okay?
bearbreeder

climber
May 19, 2017 - 08:04am PT
awww dingus r u implying some kind of VIOLENCE against a minority who is pointing out yr "trashy" comments you made about native americans

or the fact youve been continually dismissing the actual academic evidence presented by the nice NPS ranger because it doesnt fit your narrative ... or for pointing out that WHYTE PHOLKZ shouldnt speak for native americans on what their culture and artifacts mean to THEM

still waiting for native american voices ...

definately a TRUMP supporter you are

;)
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
May 19, 2017 - 08:24am PT
bearbreeder,

go back to the Res if you don't want to follow the rules/laws that apply to all of us everywhere except when on an Indian Reservations and you have that minority status of Indian Reservation access. Our denial of what the NPS would like us to do is well within the bounds of the US Constitution.

You have no standing on this matter. I shed no tears for you. And sorry, I have no ears for your lame rantings. Have a Good Day my dear fella.

bearbreeder

climber
May 19, 2017 - 08:32am PT
dingus ...

willfully ignore the academic evidence provided and then calling "trash" native artifacts ...

definately a TRUMP supporting "science denier" you are

oh and the not so subtle hints at VIOLENCE too for folks pointing that out

;)
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 19, 2017 - 08:33am PT
^^^^ read and heed Dingus BareBreeder, freedom is a two way street.
HJ

climber
Bozeman, Montana
May 19, 2017 - 10:15am PT
I have climbed regularly at DT since around 1980. I am not exactly on the right. Before the hullabaloo of the court cases I never saw any sign of native use, and I never saw any litter of any sort. Afterwords I saw a lot of stuff that most would classify as garbage, as well as what most would probably identify as prayer bundles. The items I've seen that I would classify as garbage include, but are not limited to: a plastic bag full of cigarette butts hanging from a tree branch, numerous plastic bags with and empty beer cans and areas with tarps and liquor containers strewn around; All inside the loop trail. I won't bore you with any interpretations, just saying that the observations of Dingus match what I have seen and experienced.
bearbreeder

climber
May 19, 2017 - 10:25am PT
ahhh so native americans are trashy folkz ... and thats their artifacts !!!

or did folks see garbage and simply assumed they were from "dem natives"

we have such garbage up here ... and i can safely say most arent from "natives"

shiet ... dem leftays will explode if you say dat "natives" litter the land ... why one would be called a bigoted racist alt right TRUMP supporter

;)
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 19, 2017 - 10:33am PT
Barebreeder, you are looking really silly, I am embarrassed for you.
bearbreeder

climber
May 19, 2017 - 10:40am PT
dun wurry Jon

whyte men fink minorities look silly all da time ;)

why some even call em TRASHY and try to explain their CULTURE and ARTIFACTS away ...

many of those same folks will moan about how evil TRUMP is tooo ...

=P
luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2017 - 09:07am PT
The NPS does have a plan that manages the impacts of general visitors at Devils Tower. [url="http://https://www.nps.gov/deto/learn/management/upload/General-Management-Plan-2.pdf"]


Climbers have unique and specific impacts on the lands we use, thus the need for climbing management plans.

I'm not sure what you mean by "normalizing" the data due to the number of climbers rising dramatically since 1994.

I don't doubt number of climbers in the world have risen in number since 1994.

However, that is not reflected by climbers who visit Devils Tower. The number of climbers visiting the tower has actually dropped since 1994. The highest climber use at the tower occurred between 1991-1994 with over 5,000 "climber days" each of those years. From 1995 - 2016 the number of climber days has fluctuated between roughly 3,500 - 4,500.

A mandatory ban on climbing in June is only one option out of a broad spectrum, and it is one the NPS hopes they won't have to consider.

From the CMP - "If the NPS determines that voluntary June closure and the educational programs have not been successful, it will consider several actions, including, but not limited to:

(a) revise the climbing management plan;  (b) reconvene a climbing management plan work group;  (c) institute additional measures to further encourage compliance;  (d) change the duration and nature of the voluntary closure;  (e) convert the June closure to mandatory;  (f) write a new definition of success for the voluntary closure."

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 20, 2017 - 09:20am PT
A mandatory ban on climbing in June is only one option out of a broad spectrum,

WTF???? that is not an option, did you understand the legal analysis that Dingus laid out in quite clearly? The NPS has already admitted that they want to limit traffic to accommodate a religious ceremony. However the courts have said that such limitations are unconstitutional. Much like Trump's Muslim ban, their true intent is known, and that bell can not be unrung.

NPS is already getting away with intimidation, ratcheting that up is likely to get them smacked down by the courts.

My church is good long trad leads. I do not expect special treatment.
bearbreeder

climber
May 20, 2017 - 09:30am PT
Oh dear ...

Angry old whyte malez who ignore native american culture and artifacts are now trying to compare a NPS ban on climbing a SINGLE MONTH of the year at a SINGLE SITE designed to protect such CULTURE and ARTIFACTS

To a "muslim ban"

Hell thats some KEK level hypocrisy right there

Glad yall voted for TRUMP

;)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 20, 2017 - 09:44am PT
did you understand the legal analysis that Dingus laid out in quite clearly?

Dingus is a lawyer? Really?
luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2017 - 10:57am PT
A mandatory ban on climbing in June is only one option out of a broad spectrum,

WTF???? that is not an option, did you understand the legal analysis that Dingus laid out in quite clearly? The NPS has already admitted that they want to limit traffic to accommodate a religious ceremony. However the courts have said that such limitations are unconstitutional. Much like Trump's Muslim ban, their true intent is known, and that bell can not be unrung.

NPS is already getting away with intimidation, ratcheting that up is likely to get them smacked down by the courts.

My church is good long trad leads. I do not expect special treatment.

A mandatory ban is an option. It is very likely it would go to court again, but it is still an option the NPS has to consider.

It is not the NPS' intent to intimidate, and I apologize if you feel so. I am only encouraging conversation on the topic.
Late Starter

Social climber
NA
May 20, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
^^^ I don't believe you. My guess is you have a side, and an agenda as well.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 22, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
Eric, here's a song for you on a holiday long weekend:

bearbreeder

climber
May 22, 2017 - 11:49pm PT
Nahhh jim

Heres sum fine advice for our yankee TRUMP supporting "drain the NPS swamp" friends who are fighting against "injuns" and "feds"

Credit: bearbreeder

;)
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jul 5, 2017 - 09:35am PT
http://wyomingpublicmedia.org/post/climbers-ignore-native-americans-request-devils-tower
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