Devils Tower Voluntary June Closure: What are your thoughts?

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Late Starter

Social climber
NA
May 17, 2017 - 10:42am PT
Great argument, you win. I side "Whyth" you.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 17, 2017 - 10:53am PT
. . .

Seems as if this thread is dying, as it should.

Folks such as Dingus Mcgee are the only ones bringing in anything relevant.

I believe Lucas has brought some relevant things to this thread and I would like to see him respond to my posts. (Perhaps no one else cares--who knows, but I don't know that you need more than 2 people on a thread who are getting something out of it for it to be useful.)

I would be even more interested to get Lucas's take on Dingus' / WyoRockMan's most recent posts.
luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2017 - 10:54am PT
It would not be fair to say that I or the NPS serve as a spokesperson for Native Americans. When I said that Native Americans do not wish this information to be shared I was speaking based on the ethnographic study by Hanson and Chirinos, and information in the climbing management plan, as well as information passed on to me by other NPS employees that have had consultation with the tribes that hold the tower sacred. The NPS has and does consult with the tribes on these issues, though I have not personally been a part of that process. I am not saying that Native Americans all feel the same about this issue or that they all think alike. I would guess that the opinions would be as diverse among the Native American community as they are in the climbing community.

From the:
Ethnographic Overview and Assessment of Devils Tower National Monument, Wyoming

"One of the major issues emerging from this project was that of a cultural paradox. That is, the National Park Service, in order to protect and manage personal ritual areas, needs data on the location of these sites. The Native Americans interviewed realized this, but also pointed out that, in many cases these locations are by religious custom not supposed to be revealed, and that Indian people would be acting in a culturally inappropriate manner by doing so. Thus, to provide needed data to the NPS to protect their religious interests they risk behaving counter to their religion"

"Devils Tower, which includes all areas between the Tower and the Tower trail, is eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places as a traditional cultural property. Tradition in this context refers to 'those beliefs, customs, and practices of a living community of people that have been passed down through the generations, usually orally or through practice.' The word culture in the National Register program is understood to mean "the traditions, beliefs, practices, lifeways, arts, crafts, and social institutions of any community, be it an Indian tribe, a local ethnic group, or the people of the nation as a whole." (Parker and King 1990)."

"A traditional cultural property is generally defined as one that is eligible for listing on the National Register because of its association with cultural practices or beliefs of a living community that (a) are rooted in that community's history and (b) are important in maintaining the continuing cultural identity of the community (Parker and King 1990). "

The NPS treats all lands that are eligible to be listed as if they actually are.

As far as Dingus' claim that

The NPS land surrounding Devils Tower was/is for any measure devoid of any cultural artifacts. There are zero cultural artifacts on the sides or top of Devils Tower.

This is completely false. There are many documented artifacts and sites on the shoulders of the tower and near the tower within the monument. These are not advertised to the general public for the same reasons described above, and many of these sites were discovered after the climbing management plan was enacted.

I will again try to answer Blahblah's questions directly. I assure you I am not trying to be evasive or non-responsive. Let me again say though that the June closure is not tied to the visible presence of ceremonies. It is based off the cultural value of the tower as a sacred site to many tribes.

1) I don't know what dates there will be ceremonies this year.

2) It might be possible for me to find out the dates. Some require special use permits that the park issues, some do not. Again, this is not public information.

3) I don't know the earliest date in June that ceremonies take place, nor do I know the percentage of days in June that they take place, ceremonies can take place at all times of day, including night time, (not trying to be vague, just the truth). I don't know how long they usually last. Ceremonies take place at different locations around the tower. There are ceremonies that take place in other months of the year.

Is it hard to believe that Native Americans do not want this information shared? It seems pretty reasonable to me.

More evidence documented in the climbing management plan about the tower as a sacred site.

"Some American Indians perceive climbing on the tower and the proliferation of bolts, pitons, slings, and other climbing equipment on the tower as a desecration to their sacred site. It appears to many
American Indians that climbers do not respect their culture by the very act of climbing on the tower. Climbing during traditional ceremonies and prayer times is a sensitive issue as well. Elders have commented that the spirits do not inhabit the area anymore because of all the visitors and use of the tower, thus it is not a good place to worship as before."

"The Dakota, Nakota, and Lakota Nations held a meeting in June, 1993 and developed the Summit V Resolution No. 93-11. The purpose of the document was to 'support and demand tribal participation in the protection and decision making of sacred sites.'" From that document it states that Devils tower is a sacred site among others in the state and in South Dakota, and "Devils Tower has been subjected to similar damage from an onslaught of rock climbers...these sites and many others are vital to the continuation of our traditional beliefs and values... and it is our legacy to protect these sites for the future generations, so they too, may be able to enjoy these holy places for prayer and revitalization of Mother Earth."

Regardless of weather a mandatory ban would hold up in court, the NPS is still asking you to choose to not climb during June out of respect for the sacredness of Devils Tower to many tribes, which has been documented. If you choose to climb for whatever reason, that is your choice to make. The purpose of this thread was to open up discussion on it and thus increase awareness, not to pass judgement on those that climb in June. I value the comments by everyone here and it has been informative on all sides. Thank you.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 17, 2017 - 11:14am PT
Lucas,
While I don't necessarily agree with the various points you make, I do appreciate your thoughts and thank you for responding.

I now understand that the "voluntary" closure is not related to climbers disrupting Indian ceremonies, but rather is based on the fact that climbing DT conceptually bothers (some) Indians in general. (I may presume that these same Indians are conceptually bothered by climbers climbing elsewhere--what are the chances that there are Indian spirits who don't like climbing at DT but are OK with climbing everywhere else?)

I still fail to understand how the June closure is a reasonable compromise to anything--if the Indians are conceptually bothered by climbers, that doesn't seem to be really mitigated by not climbing in June. But maybe we've taken these points as far as we can take them and simply disagree.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
May 17, 2017 - 12:29pm PT
The NPS land surrounding Devils Tower was/is for any measure devoid of any cultural artifacts. There are zero cultural artifacts on the sides or top of Devils Tower.

I gained this information in a talk with Dr Frisen once Head of UW Archaeology and also at one time State Archeologist.

Note luquitos states:

This is completely false. There are many documented artifacts and sites on the shoulders of the tower and near the tower within the monument. These are not advertised to the general public for the same reasons described above, and many of these sites were discovered .



after the climbing management plan was enacted
and this time is after DR. Frisen retired.

And we fail to hear from luquitos what many means?
Hard Rock

Trad climber
Montana
May 17, 2017 - 01:17pm PT
The quality of the government for bans (and climbing plans) is bad. We are 3 years into a bolting ban at Mill Creek in Montana. The first year was a "cooling off" period with non climbers who were never up at our climbing area (similar to Devils Tower?) and it was a lie. Also I was told to my face that if we didn't obey the voluntary ban they would make it required. The last letter from the FS to the coalition said we should police the whole climbing community.

Rest assured I am qualified to make the above statement.

luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
Dingus,

The Archeology Laboratory of the University of South Dakota conducted an intensive survey of Devils Tower National Monument from July to September 1997 and July to August 1998.

The purpose of The Archeological 1997-1998 Survey and National Register Evaluation of Devils Tower National Monument, Crook County, Wyoming (Univ. of SD Archeol. Lab. 1998) was to locate and interpret all historic and prehistoric sites in the monument and evaluate their significance within the guidelines of the National Register of Historic Places. Of the 25 sites found eligible for the national register, 8 are historic: homestead, administrative district, Tower ladder, entrance station, entrance road, cabin/motel site, historic road, and graffiti. Of these, the administrative district, the entrance station, and the entrance road have been listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

Seventeen earlier sites were found eligible: Devils Tower, a cave, two prehistoric rock paintings, and 13 lithic scatter sites. Among the 17 sites were artifacts dating from the Late Paleoindian period to the Late Prehistoric. Indications of heavy occupation were found for the Late Plains Archaic and Late Prehistoric periods.

All of this information can be found in the Devils Tower National Monument: Final General Management Plan, Environmental Impact Statement, which is available to read online here:
[url="http://https://www.nps.gov/deto/learn/management/upload/General-Management-Plan-2.pdf"]http://https://www.nps.gov/deto/learn/management/upload/General-Management-Plan-2.pdf[/url]
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
May 17, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
Rest assured I am qualified to make the above statement.

Yeah, but I don't know if your statement really belongs on this thread, one that is actually going somewhere and long overdue. Digressing right now doesn't really help.

But let me digress, aren't you the one that set about with the barrage of overbolted routes and leading hordes of newbies up the trail to "your" new crag in such a short period of time? Of course you were going to draw the attention of incensed bird watchers who tried to shut you down.

Arne
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
May 17, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
I have found cultural artifacts on top of the tower. I have up to this point never revealed this to anyone other than Mike Cronin who I was climbing with that day.

It was a cool spring day one of those early spring days where you were quite certain you were one on the first people to walk in the rareified air of the tower summit that calendar year. We had topped out and were enjoying the view in the cool summit breeze while making light conversation. I remember it like it was yesterday. We then started down toward the summit raps when I look down and I see the artifacts.....







I could not believe it but there it was. A bright shiny broken Elvis watch and a cigar box sized duct taped package that turned out to be two Tom Robbins novels.

Ludicris, as someone who spent almost all of his life in South Dakota i know your study is bogus cause everybody knows guys from USD can't climb.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
May 18, 2017 - 05:57am PT
luquitos,

Thanks for the update on cultural artifacts in and around DETO.

Again, the Dowes court that set the framework of this settlement argument has said this is a religious dispute and not the NPS's CMP case of cultural infringement. All the cultural artifacts mean nothing for this case. For the purpose of religious practices on Federal property other than Indian Reservations all parties have equal access and they are subject to noises and visual impacts of other parties doing whatever practices on this property.

Without a doubt climbers have been singled out on the issue of infringement because they were the lowest hanging fruit. de facto: The Park Service decides to have a climbing Management Plan and not a Tourist Management Plan. But, so be it. The type of action like climbers on the side of Tower by all court cases of infringement of religious practices have sighted with sustaining the distant action.

Supt Deb Liggett tried to advance the argument that Devils Tower was the Native Americans Temple but the Dowes Court did not buy this argument as having in any power in the decision of the case. Dr. Frisen assured me there were no such artifacts on the NPS Devils Tower Grounds to construe that Devils Tower was such a temple if you will.

Within Federal Public Lands we are all bound to the makings of the US Constitution and it's case law. Why do the seemingly uniformed Devils Tower NPS agents try to make us climbers do? [Volunteering is ok] something other than what the law permits them to do. We do not see this kind of pseudo regulatory action happening at Rainbow Bridge National Monument where the case of Badoni v. Higginson arose. I use the adjective pseudo here to mean threats of closure that have no grounds.









The number of climbers since 1994 has risen dramatically. How about normalizing your data for this effect?
c wilmot

climber
May 18, 2017 - 06:03am PT
I find the European mentality of needing artifacts in order to confer cultural/spiritual importance to a certain place odd.
Perhaps the natives had a different mindset?

Would you leave trash at a place of spiritual importance to you?

Interesting debate going on
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
May 18, 2017 - 06:10am PT
c wilmont,

I find the European mentality of needing artifacts in order to confer cultural/spiritual importance to a certain place odd.
Perhaps the natives had a different mindset?

Would you leave trash at a place of spiritual importance to you?

Interesting debate going on

This country is not a country of Europe. The jump to Plymouth Rock had its reasons.

The Native Americans using Devils Tower Lands for a Spiritual Gathering have left many items we white boy climbers consider trash.

to wit: one car engine, car batteries, beer cans, eating utensils, clothing, electronic devices, mattresses, blankets, food, dead animals and other garbage that the maintenance division of DETO cleaned up. Is the Spiritual Practice at DETO a car cleaning ritual?

But having grown up very close to Pine Ridge, South Dakota this dumping action of Native Americans comes as no surprise.

And there you have it: Trash is the evidence of a temple.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 18, 2017 - 09:26am PT
I gotta say that pipelines are no big deal. There are zillions of them criss crossing the country. Rarely is there a problem, and those are almost always from old lines. Modern pipelines are very good.

It isn't much worse than putting in a road. A right of way will lay across the landscape, kept clear of trees.

They monitor those lines closely. They have pilots fly low and slow over their length every day on the big ones. Also, no way would a leak damage the Ogallala Aquifer. If, somehow, a spill made it that deep, any contamination would be small and local.

You have to clean up spills. You have to dig up all of the contaminated soil and replace it with clean soil. Pricey. So they regularly pig those lines to make sure that they are in good shape.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 18, 2017 - 09:52am PT
Yeah, the biggest spill of the Prudhoe Bay line was a couple hundred gallons caused by a drunk with a rifle? Pretty hard to shoot up a buried pipeline. But we digress.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
May 18, 2017 - 11:43am PT
Since you digressed, let's summarize those comments on pipelines:
Petroleum is cleaner than a vacuum.
Pipelines are cleaner than distilled water.
No leaks have ever been an issue.
Crude oil is healthy and tasty.
All pipeline operators follow the best safety procedures all the time.
All workers in the fossil fuel industry are very concerned about the environment.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 18, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
This year

2017[edit]
On January 7, a Colonial Pipeline stubline leaked gasoline into Shoal Creek, in Chattanooga, Tennessee.[602]
On January 14, the Ozark Pipeline, an Enbridge, now Marathon, division, spilled about 18,900 gallons of light oil, at the Lawrence Pump Station, near Halltown, Missouri.[603]
On January 16, a gas pipeline exploded and burned, near Spearman, Texas. There were no injuries.[604]
On January 25, the Magellan pipeline leaked 138,600 gallons (3,300 barrels) of diesel fuel onto private agricultural land in Worth County, Iowa, near Hanlontown.[605]
On January 30, a Texas Department of Transportation crew dug into the 30 inch Seaway Pipeline, near Blue Ridge, Texas, spraying crude oil across road. About 210,000 gallons of crude were spilled. There were no injuries.[606][607]
On January 31, a DCP pipeline exploded under a runway, at Panola County Airport-Sharpe Field in Texas. There were no injuries, but the airport will shut that runway down for an extended amount of time.[608]
On February 10, a Phillips 66 natural gas liquids pipeline (TENDS pipeline Sorrento system)[609] near the Williams-Discovery natural gas plant on US Route 90 near Paradis, Louisiana exploded while being cleaned, killing one worker, and sending another worker to a burn unit. Traffic on US 90 and La 631 was shut down and residents in the area evacuated.[610][611]
On February 15, a 36-inch Kinder Morgan gas pipeline exploded and burned in Refugio County, Texas. There were no injuries.[612]
On February 27, a crude oil pipeline ruptured in Falls City, Texas. spilling about 42,630 gallons of crude oil. The cause was from internal corrosion.[613]
On March 29, a natural-gas leak of a high-pressure pipeline, in Providence, Rhode Island, owned by Spectra Energy, released about 19 million cubic feet of natural gas, or enough natural gas to heat and keep the lights on for 190,000 homes for a single day. Approximately two gallons of polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) were also released, in the form of contaminated natural gas condensate.[614]
On April 4, a pump on the Dakota Access Pipeline spilled about 84 gallons of oil, at a pump station in Tulra, South Dakota. The leak was not noticed until May 9.[615]
On April 21, a Plains All American Pipeline, experienced a crude oil release on the Buffalo Pipeline, near Loyal, Oklahoma. About 19,000 gallons of crude oil was spilled.[616]
On April 22, a 1,050-gallon oil pipeline spill near Bismarck, North Dakota polluted a tributary of the Little Missouri River, but was prevented from flowing into the larger waterway.[617]
On May 8, a Wood River Pipelines (part of Koch Industries) line broke in Warrensburg, Illinois, spill 250 gallons of crude oil.[618]
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
May 18, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
Uh oh, there goes the thread

bearbreeder succeeds
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
May 18, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
a little more on pipelines.
All new modern pipelines become old leaky pipelines.

"A ruptured pipeline in California that leaked over 100,000 gallons of crude oil along the Santa Barbara coast last month [May 2015] was badly corroded to a fraction of its original thickness, according to federal regulators. The preliminary findings were released Wednesday by the federal Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration.

The agency reportedly said that investigators found that nearly half of the 10.6-mile pipeline’s metal wall at the break site had corroded, bringing its thickness to about one-sixteenth of an inch. The report stated that the damaged section was close to the site of three repairs made to the pipeline after corrosion was found by an inspection in 2012, according to the Los Angeles Times.

The report also stated that government inspectors "noted general external corrosion of the pipe body during field examination of the failed pipe segment.” Investigators believe that "this thinning of the pipe wall is greater than the 45 percent metal loss which was indicated" in recent inspections by Houston-based Plains All American Pipeline, which operates the pipeline.

The findings reportedly indicate that over 80 percent of the metal pipe wall had worn away because of corrosion, Richard Kuprewicz, president of Accufacts Inc, which probes pipeline incidents, reportedly said.

“There is pipe that can survive 80% wall loss. When you’re over 80% there isn’t room for error at that level,” Kuprewicz said

http://www.ibtimes.com/santa-barbara-oil-spill-ruptured-pipeline-was-badly-corroded-break-site-fisherman-1951753?utm_source=internal&utm_campaign=incontent&utm_medium=related2
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
May 18, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
And there you have it: Trash is the evidence of a temple.

Collections of refuse constitute the bulk of evidence of prehistoric use, although archeologists call them "lithic scatter sites".

The tower does present a nice place to knap.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 18, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
Actually, the two biggest incidents with the Trans-Alaska Pipeline involved
alcohol so why aren't you snowflakes trying to ban alcohol?
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