Devils Tower Voluntary June Closure: What are your thoughts?

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little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
May 15, 2017 - 11:32am PT
Hi Ken,

personally, I'd respect the June ban. Have no problem with it. I'm not advocating anything.

It's just that your language makes me wince.
Late Starter

Social climber
South Dakota
May 15, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
Please send me your favorite local crag (i.e. Yosemite, etc..)

I'm preparing a standard form letter to send to all tribes that me be interested in setting aside a month to ban climbing for rituals, ceremonies etc..(Very similar to Devils Tower)

I'd like to get local legislators on board with the possibility of favorable media coverage, etc..

I'm quite certain the local reservations/tribes that have valued these areas, would be in favor of such a recommendation. They probably didn't realize that a possible climbing ban existed!!

Please send me your lists and I'll get these standardized letters to forward along.

Lets make it happen!!!
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
May 15, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
It's one month, people.

It's one month if you're local. It's the whole year if that month (which is a prime month even for locals) happens to be when you have your road trip because it's the best weather month to plan a road trip.
luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
Little Z quoted:
Climbers stated, voluntarily, that "I will not climb in the month of June"

I'm a climber. I don't remember saying that, or appointing anyone to speak on my behalf.

Only made one trip to the tower to climb, and it wasn't in June. Very awesome, but we did wind up sliding off an icy I-25 and rolling the car on the way back to Ft. Collins. So maybe the offended spirits got their revenge.

Obviously every climber didn't say they would choose not climb in the month of June or we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, during the Climbing Management plan process, there was a working group that consisted of the Access Fund and a local climbing organization, Native American representatives, and the NPS that made suggestions for the plan. There was also a public comment period in which many climbers expressed their opinions.

The Access Fund, a group I would think most climbers can get behind, fully supports the Climbing Management plan and voluntary June closure at Devils Tower.

luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2017 - 01:29pm PT
Part of what makes the June closure painful is that it's by far the best month to climb the Tower for those whose lives revolve around the American school calendar (i.e., you have kids). By July it's cookin' hot, and the classic routes are on the south side in full sun. How did June get chosen as the sacred month?

June was chosen because it is a culturally significant month for the Native American tribes that the tower is sacred to. Many ceremonies take place in June culminating with the summer solstice. The Native American cultural and spiritual world revolves around the lunar calendar, not the Roman calendar or American school calendar. Promoting cross cultural understanding and awareness is a major tenent of the voluntary June closure and Climbing Management Plan.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 15, 2017 - 01:46pm PT
The Native American cultural and spiritual world revolves around the lunar calendar, not the Roman calendar or American school calendar.

We learn all sorts of things on these threads--
I thought June was the Roman calendar, guess I was mistaken.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 15, 2017 - 01:53pm PT
I'll be hitting it, first time ever, in August, I hope it won't be too crowded then.

Interesting discussion.

But I am curious though if any NA groups have brought forth any actual evidence or good argument - either regarding Devils Tower or Cave Rock - in support of their claim that climbers climbing on said sacred rock actually vitiate it . "Show me the evidence."

"From what I understand the native people believe the tower was formed by a bear. This is not true. Devils Tower is a remnant of Yygdrasil. As an arborist I believe it must be climbed. If you touch it in a friendly manner you will understand that it wants to be climbed."

lol
luquitos

Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2017 - 02:09pm PT
We learn all sorts of things on these threads--
I thought June was the Roman calendar, guess I was mistaken.

The closure happens in June because our modern world follows the Roman calendar. It would be difficult to manage a closure that follows a lunar calendar or ceremonies that may take place at different times each year.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 15, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
It's been my experience that climbers should be proactive in building good relationships with the land managers of the public lands where climbing exists.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 15, 2017 - 02:28pm PT
The closure happens in June because our modern world follows the Roman calendar. It would be difficult to manage a closure that follows a lunar calendar or ceremonies that may take place at different times each year.

It's difficult to tell people the date or dates when something will happen, so you just "round off" to the nearest month?

Let's make this concrete: what date or dates will there be ceremonies this year?
Do you know?
Can you find out?
Will there by any that are not in June?
What's the earliest date in June that the ceremonies happen?
What percentage of days in June are there ceremonies?
What times of day are the ceremonies typically at? How long do they typically last?
Where, specifically, do they occur?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 15, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
If you let the indians "abuse" you the next privileged group will be the Baptists. Sunrise services at Mt. Soledad in San Diego is a good example. Can you see Muslims getting away with this?

http://www.skepticfiles.org/moretext/easter7.htm

Last February, in the midst of this legal battle, Dr. Irons visited the local parks department to see if the Mount Soledad Memorial
Association had acquired a permit to use the park this Easter. To his
surprise, he discovered that no permit had been requested, and,
indeed, such a permit had not been issued to the Memorial Association
to conduct their Christian worship services for years. It was simply
assumed by the city that the park would be reserved for these
services. Seizing a rare opportunity, Dr. Irons immediately made
application for use of the park on Easter morning. In the
"organization" blank of the application, Dr. Irons listed the Atheist
Coalition, despite the fact that he considers himself a practicing
Christian. Several weeks later, the Atheist Coalition membership
voted nearly unanimously to support Dr. Irons' Easter morning event.
This support was offered even though many members of the Coalition had
already made plans to attend a national atheists convention in the
Midwest on that weekend.

Under the guidance of Dr. Irons and activist Craig Kelso, the theme
for the Easter morning event became "The Park Belongs to Everyone". A
program of speakers was assembled from San Diego's diverse religious
and non-religious minority groups. The message went out that this
secular celebration was to welcome all citizens, without
concern for convictions or beliefs. This open invitation did not
appeal to the local media, which chose instead to cast this gathering
as a battle between atheists and Christians. The local newspapers
contained frequent stories and editorials on the usurpation of this
sacred ground by the childish and mean spirited atheists. The San
Diego Memorial Association refused to join in the celebration, opting
to reserve the park for Memorial Day, instead. One San Diego City
Councilman, who also happens to be a Baptist preacher, reserved the
park for the hour preceding the Atheist Coalition Easter
event, but front page headlines soon thereafter declared that God
himself had told this distinguished gentleman to withdraw his
reservation.

Many people climbed Mount Soledad on the morning of April 7th. With
sleep still in their eyes from the reinstantiation of daylight savings
time, people were forced by limited parking space to climb to the top
of the hill on foot. Arriving in darkness, members of the "The Park
Belongs to Everyone" committee quitely set up for their event while
television cameras captured the wild circus of street preachers and
angry Christian banner wavers which pranced about the cross. As the
sun crept above the mountains, the celebration of freedom and
diversity began.

Dr. Irons and Craig Kelso welcomed the crowd, which numbered between
200 and 300. The sound of their voices over the P.A. system was heard
by the demonstrators at the nearby cross, and a parade of banner
toting crusaders marched towards the podium. The motley crew of
anti-separationists included several bible thumpers shouting
hallelujahs, a mock Jesus bearing a large wooden cross and receiving
flogging by a woman wearing bunny-rabbit make-up, and a collection of
young muscular men wearing clothing reminiscent of inner city street
gangs, chanting "It's the blood that sets me free".

The disruption was significant, but the separationists went on. Scott
Nailor, speaking on behalf of the Atheist Coalition, shouted out his
piece, ignoring the drone of the protesters behind him. Television
cameras ignored his words and focused instead on any interaction that
showed promise of escalating into violence. Brave freethinkers and
other separationists stepped forward to quietly interpose their bodies
between the protesters and the speakers. Then, as if out of nowhere,
several uniformed officers of the San Diego Police Department appeared
and calmly enforced the park permit granted to Dr. Irons. The
Christian protesters were directed to keep their distance, and their
shouts and chants slowly died down to an occasional heckling.

JoAnne Harrison, speaking for the local wiccans, related the pagan
history of Easter. She was followed by the Reverend Tom Owen-Towle of
the First Unitarian Universalist Church. A musical interlude was then
provided by Vincent Clarke, an amiable elderly trombonist who had
played in years past for the Christian services held on Mount Soledad.
On this occasion, Mr. Clarke entertained the crowd with a selection of
secular show tunes.
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
May 15, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
June was chosen because it is a culturally significant month for the Native American tribes that the tower is sacred to. Many ceremonies take place in June culminating with the summer solstice.

That's a helpful explanation.

Seems like May 22 to June 21 (or maybe May 23 to June 22) would make more sense as it would, for native Americans, more closely align with their cultural experiences while better explaining their culture to the outside world. Also, it would have a side benefit of better alignment with the American calendar. As it is, "the month of June" sounds arbitrary, even capricious, even though it isn't.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
May 15, 2017 - 07:58pm PT
Luquitos,

Thank you for starting this thread. Before, I was always determined to honor the June voluntary closure. I have been advocating for Native American rights my entire life whenever I have the opportunity to do so. Those who know me understand the passion I have for spreading accurate history as to what really happened here to the plains Indians, especially during the 1800's and on into today.

After learning more about this closure however, I am planning my Devil's Tower trip this year in the month of June. It will be nice to spend time in the Black Hills during the month of the sun dance.

Again, thank you for exposing me to individuals who appear to understand the history of this closure far better than you have demonstrated and to those who have put the closure into a different perspective, one that makes a lot more sense than the one that was dished out to me by the NPS.

Arne
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
May 16, 2017 - 06:17am PT
Here is another interesting disclosure that happened at the start of the Climbing Management Group. The team was to consist of 2 climbing group's representatives and 2 Native Americans and others that I have forgotten. The Park Service got two Native Americans form the seven associated tribes that claim past interest in the Tower.

While at the first Management Plan Meeting the two Native American Representatives said they had no problem with climbers on the Tower during their Spiritual Quest which took place in a zoned off [to visitors and hikers] region of the NW corner of the Tower. The NPS then ask one of the members to step down and they would seek another Native American with an opposing view. They got a high profile "rabble rouser" Native American from Oklahoma to come since he would have an opposing view.

The Oklahoma native [not of the seven associated tribes] got the Pine Ridge Sioux woman to change her view and so there were now 2 Native Americans against climbing on the Tower. The NPS had created the deck they wanted -- opposing views. I grew up 40 miles from where the woman lived and did get a chance to talk with her as I felt having grown up with families she knew like the Short Bulls, Truebloods and Braves she might be willing to talk to me. She was a little shy but at best seemed luke warm to the new idea she was to go with that of closing the tower to climbing. The pace of communicating with her was slow like most tribal peoples but the pace of the Oklahoma Native was rapid as he had an agenda.

Climber Carl Coy was the Access Fund Representative and he became a turncoat against climbing interests. Bob Archbolt was the other representative from the Black Hills Climbing Coalition. He had little interest in such sittings and negotiations and maybe little skill in keeping his sights on target. With agents like these two representing our interests Charley Anderson, Paul Duval, Hollis Marriott and I became the vocal public at large against the climbing plan.

We immediately set out writing a cogent and concise flyer letter with very the aim to get action -- namely climbers sending letters to DETO protesting the plan. We were highly successful -- 800 letters in 2 months. After achieving this success I gained a hot line to the Access Fund. They could "never achieve such a response from the Public" how did we do it? We will pay your receipt proof expenses but to save face we cannot hold your point of view was the gist.

We all agreed to the plan as the meaning of the word voluntary is to be construed as a choice of no consequences. Latter agents of Park Service would threaten us as they were not seeing climbing numbers in June vanish. Judge Dowes's ruling that the Tower would never be closed to climbing for religious reasons made the meaning of the word voluntary to be construed as a choice of no consequences.

From Donini:

It's been my experience that climbers should be proactive in building good relationships with the land managers of the public lands where climbing exists.

I ask of this: Who has the last say in land management?

To make sense of his casual statement think of it this way: The agency of land management having the final say in land management in regard to climbing is the courts. Work with them if you have to. The NPS was told early on about Badoni v Higginson but they ignored us. There is no mention of Badoni v. Higginson in the Climbing Management Plan.

Remember this: The agencies of land management can do whatever they want until taken to court. Court action is likely proof whether they comply with the law as land managers sometimes have no intention of working with you -- behind that smiling face they carry their agenda.




Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 09:11am PT
Thank you for starting this thread. Before, I was always determined to honor the June voluntary closure. I have been advocating for Native American rights my entire life whenever I have the opportunity to do so. Those who know me understand the passion I have for spreading accurate history as to what really happened here to the plains Indians, especially during the 1800's and on into today.

After learning more about this closure however, I am planning my Devil's Tower trip this year in the month of June. It will be nice to spend time in the Black Hills during the month of the sun dance.


Sounds exactly like the climbers who profess to love the environment, then when confronted with a closure to protect a species, suggest that killing off that species would be the best option. Nice respect for the Native Americans.
Late Starter

Social climber
South Dakota
May 16, 2017 - 09:23am PT
Oh all Hail BearBreeder...

Please send me your favorite local crag with any cultural significance.

I'll have my standardized letter ready to go. Bet you a silver nickel it won't take much to get the ball rolling.

Appreciate your backing as a fellow climber.

Maybe there's other websites you should be frequenting??

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 16, 2017 - 10:01am PT
Bearbreeder--

You're doing an excellent job of impersonating a PC Whyte guy who supports the "voluntary closures" (which, as far as I can tell, are a product of PC Whyte guy culture and have very little to do with anything relating to Indians).

Keep it up and I'll be inclined to give you an honorary Whyte guy pass card--seems to be what you're looking for.
Late Starter

Social climber
South Dakota
May 16, 2017 - 10:27am PT
YES^^

Thank you Dingus for providing factual and relevant information. The details involved in the original agreement are helpful and would be lost to history without your information.

The rest of this thread is deteriorating to sub-Mountain Project standards.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
May 16, 2017 - 10:29am PT
so we should grid-bolt DeTo?
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
May 16, 2017 - 10:34am PT
Hmm. Dang that Dingus. I can't nay-say his points. Well, he's a privileged white trash Trump dude, for sure. I'll call him out for what he is. Yes! That's a good approach!
Messages 61 - 80 of total 175 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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