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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 18, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
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In a feeble attempt at staying on topic, I present you the view from Frank's porch...
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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May 18, 2017 - 03:52pm PT
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Are you trying to say that oil pipeline leaks are generally caused by alcohol or snowfall in Alaska? I'm sorry, but sometimes clownfish logic is beyond me.
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CudChewingMF
Sport climber
Laramie, WY
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May 18, 2017 - 07:24pm PT
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Wasn't Frank an alcohol swilling conservative that desecrated the place with his mere presence?? Circa 80's Lycra does not look good on a geriatric losing muscle tone!! Fortunately, that did not obscure the view seen in your beautiful photo!! LOL
A friendly bow to Colonel Sanders.........
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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May 19, 2017 - 05:51am PT
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Climbing ban upheld at Devils Tower
BITD some of our reliable news sources would completely misstate a court outcome:
see: http://www.hcn.org/issues/129/4123
But from another author writing on the outcome of the Petefish Court case
http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp2/2/1448/2486784/
The NPS represents that it will not enforce the voluntary closure, but will instead rely on climbers' self-regulation and a new "cross-cultural educational program" "to motivate climbers and other park visitors to comply." Id. at 22.
In the final court case of Petefish teamed with Bear Lodge Multiple Use they lost all of the points of their case. In particular and I will say again that the court ruled the Park Service CMP not unconstitutional and they could use the wording Voluntary Closure
see these links for a couple slightly different reports on the outcome:
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-10th-circuit/1211632.html
https://www.justice.gov/osg/brief/bear-lodge-v-babbitt-opposition
The Park Service at DETO can promulgate any line of words threatening closure they want with [false] words through the media much like any other agencies of our government has been known to do. But they have told the court [see above] that they will not enforce the voluntary close. I ask if you have a voluntary closure and start preventing June climbing what does it mean to say you have a voluntary closure?
The DETO Park Service can choose various means to educate climbers of the closure. Remember how some states ruled that women seeking abortions would have to watch a movie about pro life? Well, as a climber you do not have to watch any movies or listen to anyone on the topic of the closure prior to beginning your climb. I have my forms of respect for people and to uphold the form of action the NPS seeks of me runs counter to violating the US Court rulings on religious practice infringement. To do the counter action that the NPS requests does not meet my criteria of disrespect respect for Native Americans.
It would seem possible that during the month of June Devils Tower NPS could hire paid protesters ...folks a carrying signs and saying hurray for our side... to protest climbers on the Tower. How Fitting? A sign could read:
Get off the Fuxking Tower you assaholas, No respect for Injuns.
Bearbreeder you could make such a protester and a very good one. Come on out to Devils Tower, WY this June. Your relentless, mindless, repetitive chatter is what a sign carrying protester needs. Even though you would not be climbing I suggest wearing a helmet and face shield to protect your head lights. This is Wyoming. You could bring a sheep with you, but no bad mouthing Trump, okay?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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May 19, 2017 - 08:24am PT
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bearbreeder,
go back to the Res if you don't want to follow the rules/laws that apply to all of us everywhere except when on an Indian Reservations and you have that minority status of Indian Reservation access. Our denial of what the NPS would like us to do is well within the bounds of the US Constitution.
You have no standing on this matter. I shed no tears for you. And sorry, I have no ears for your lame rantings. Have a Good Day my dear fella.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 19, 2017 - 08:33am PT
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^^^^ read and heed Dingus BareBreeder, freedom is a two way street.
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HJ
climber
Bozeman, Montana
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May 19, 2017 - 10:15am PT
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I have climbed regularly at DT since around 1980. I am not exactly on the right. Before the hullabaloo of the court cases I never saw any sign of native use, and I never saw any litter of any sort. Afterwords I saw a lot of stuff that most would classify as garbage, as well as what most would probably identify as prayer bundles. The items I've seen that I would classify as garbage include, but are not limited to: a plastic bag full of cigarette butts hanging from a tree branch, numerous plastic bags with and empty beer cans and areas with tarps and liquor containers strewn around; All inside the loop trail. I won't bore you with any interpretations, just saying that the observations of Dingus match what I have seen and experienced.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 19, 2017 - 10:33am PT
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Barebreeder, you are looking really silly, I am embarrassed for you.
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luquitos
Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2017 - 09:07am PT
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The NPS does have a plan that manages the impacts of general visitors at Devils Tower. [url="http://https://www.nps.gov/deto/learn/management/upload/General-Management-Plan-2.pdf"]
Climbers have unique and specific impacts on the lands we use, thus the need for climbing management plans.
I'm not sure what you mean by "normalizing" the data due to the number of climbers rising dramatically since 1994.
I don't doubt number of climbers in the world have risen in number since 1994.
However, that is not reflected by climbers who visit Devils Tower. The number of climbers visiting the tower has actually dropped since 1994. The highest climber use at the tower occurred between 1991-1994 with over 5,000 "climber days" each of those years. From 1995 - 2016 the number of climber days has fluctuated between roughly 3,500 - 4,500.
A mandatory ban on climbing in June is only one option out of a broad spectrum, and it is one the NPS hopes they won't have to consider.
From the CMP - "If the NPS determines that voluntary June closure and the educational programs have not been successful, it will consider several actions, including, but not limited to:
(a) revise the climbing management plan; (b) reconvene a climbing management plan work group; (c) institute additional measures to further encourage compliance; (d) change the duration and nature of the voluntary closure; (e) convert the June closure to mandatory; (f) write a new definition of success for the voluntary closure."
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 20, 2017 - 09:20am PT
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A mandatory ban on climbing in June is only one option out of a broad spectrum,
WTF???? that is not an option, did you understand the legal analysis that Dingus laid out in quite clearly? The NPS has already admitted that they want to limit traffic to accommodate a religious ceremony. However the courts have said that such limitations are unconstitutional. Much like Trump's Muslim ban, their true intent is known, and that bell can not be unrung.
NPS is already getting away with intimidation, ratcheting that up is likely to get them smacked down by the courts.
My church is good long trad leads. I do not expect special treatment.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 20, 2017 - 09:44am PT
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did you understand the legal analysis that Dingus laid out in quite clearly?
Dingus is a lawyer? Really?
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luquitos
Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2017 - 10:57am PT
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A mandatory ban on climbing in June is only one option out of a broad spectrum,
WTF???? that is not an option, did you understand the legal analysis that Dingus laid out in quite clearly? The NPS has already admitted that they want to limit traffic to accommodate a religious ceremony. However the courts have said that such limitations are unconstitutional. Much like Trump's Muslim ban, their true intent is known, and that bell can not be unrung.
NPS is already getting away with intimidation, ratcheting that up is likely to get them smacked down by the courts.
My church is good long trad leads. I do not expect special treatment.
A mandatory ban is an option. It is very likely it would go to court again, but it is still an option the NPS has to consider.
It is not the NPS' intent to intimidate, and I apologize if you feel so. I am only encouraging conversation on the topic.
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Late Starter
Social climber
NA
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May 20, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
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^^^ I don't believe you. My guess is you have a side, and an agenda as well.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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More to the point, perhaps the "climbing community" is becoming less able to self-regulate. Well, if we can't self-regulate we can be regulated by others:
Reid said tribal representatives felt a mandatory closure did not reflect the spirit of intent.
“June was the selected month,” said Reid. “And they wanted people to want to abstain from climbing out of respect for the sacred site status, and the cultural significance of the tower to 25-plus tribes in the intermountain area.”
And Reid said the climbers wanted the opportunity to show that their community could self-regulate. So, a voluntary closure made sense and it was put into the final draft of the climbing management plan.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Terrible article, how could they "gloss over" (completely ignore) court rulings that stopped a climbing ban from taking effect.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Someone needs to go back to journalism school.
"“I cannot help but reflect on my time on the reservation, and I’ve had plenty of times on Rosebud and Pine Ridge, a lot of people there are as alcoholic as I am,” Sanders said.
Actually, studies show Native Americans abstain from alcohol use more than the general public."
What does the writer's non-sequitur about abstention have to do with propensity to alcoholism or number of alkis? You could make a plausible argument that more people abstain in the native populatin precisely because they have a higher genetic propensity toward alcoholism and can't do the moderation thing.
The percent of people abstaining has nothing to do with "a lot of people there" being alcoholics as Frank states. If general pop has 30% abstainers, 50% moderates, 20% alkis, and natives 40% abstainers, 20% mods, 40% alkis, you get my drift. I can forgive a green writer, but their editor should be ridiculed for allowing this bull puckey pass their desk.
That would be you.
The author quoted the climber, and was nice enough to actually include what he said. Now I know that the Trump media feels that any fake statements are just as valid as any true, but most journalists will note falsities when they are stated. Frank made a statement that plays into the stereotype of the "drunk indian"...HE MADE THE ASSERTION. The journalist was simply correcting the record---do you advocate that they make a false statement? The article was not about alcohol consumption, and was not mentioned until FRANK brought it up, to his shame.
What was his point? That because they are a bunch of drunks, they should be ignored....again?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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It seems that the lesson here, is that whatever climbers say or agree to do, is simply a convenience of the time, and not to be trusted in the future.
What a shame.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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1,225 to 373 is pretty damn good, for a voluntary program.
The Indians need to count their goddamn blessings. Their glass is way more than half-full.
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Late Starter
Social climber
NA
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Some of these comments are so dense it drives me crazy.
Thank goodness the Access Fund supports this....they must have realized they don't have enough membership in the Wyoming area that cares.
Would the Access Fund still support a "voluntary" ban in Yosemite?
I'm sure we can find an activist or two in one of the local tribes over there on the western side of the country. Let's spread the word, that way all of the "couch" activists on the other side of the country can debate the "voluntary" closure of there culturally significant areas.
BTW...May has become my month of choice for ritual climbing on the tower. I'd like to propose a closure for all tourists and natives. My religion and practices will be defined and named at a later date (when I've had more coffee).
Ohhh, and thank goodness we've asphalted around the tower, kind of adds to the ambiance for such a culturally significant area. That way I can park my Hyundai right close, AND have a nice asphalt trail. If your going to close it...CLOSE IT TO EVERYONE.
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