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dirtbag
climber
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We also have a very quirky electoral system based on winning states. 3 million more people voted for her, yet she still lost.
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dirtbag
climber
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She admitted it, too, saying that schmoozing is hard for her.
Oh well, on to 2020.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
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I think I, like most liberal folks, are disconnected from the experience of true poverty and hopelessness in this country. Because of our failure to really understand or build credibility with this segment of society, the picture of the future possibility we paint appears to lack authenticity or relevance for struggling people. They have a historical experience of being left behind, and they interpret our viewpoints through the lens that it will be more of the same.
So the vote goes not to a carefully thought out path to systematically solve the root problems that people experience, but rather just a wild Hail Mary for something radically different because status quo ain't working.
I have been more policy-centric than party-centric in my viewpoints, but I'm obviously more on the Democratic party side of the spectrum. But I'm disillusioned by how the Democrats have responded to the Trump election. They make it mostly about a witch hunt for Trump and taking back seats riding on the indignant outrage, but they are not educating people about the link between various policy choices and the consequences at local and personal levels. They don't talk about the time delays over which the consequences occur. This leaves most people vulnerable to b.s. lies about how a candidate will save them and immediately make their lives better, without addressing what is really wrong and what are the things that can be done to fix it, and how long it will take and what the side effects are.
I am a die-hard optimist that people make better choices when they understand what it means in their lives. People who are truly poor and desperate don't give a sh#t about taking our society closer to an ideal. They just want to make their lives stop sucking. Anybody who pedals a solution to that is worth a shot given that doing nothing or staying the course is just not working for them.
I get that. I wish we had a leader who had credibility and experience of being really poor, not seeing any better prospects in the future, but somehow rose up out of that and was able to relate the personal circumstances of those folks to the societal ideals that some of us are chasing.
I see how the visions of new economies and societal revolutions are implicitly biased toward people who have intellectual or other merits that launch them into the elite opportunities, while average Joe outlook is getting bleaker. I frankly don't see that ever changing... unless we commit to full-blown revolution and technology ban and back to agrarian society with everyone working as a subsistence farmer where the differential value of skills approaches zero and we are all just commodity bodies doing unskilled labor.
But you know what? The rest of the world won't keep their head up their ass like us. They will use that technology we eschew and those skills that separate people, they will use those skills to enslave us. We will become work plantations where all of the value we generate is taken for the enrichment of whatever country enslaves us.
So giving up technology and skills will not happen as long as USA has designs on power and sovreignty. So we are also stuck with a major gap between rich and poor, a major gap between who has job opportunities and who does not. This is the future, and we need a political infrastructure capable of dealing with this reality. Will we be the country of "sorry you're dumb, go live in a cave" or a country that strives to find dignity for all? Will we send geographic regions deeper into blight because the people who stay there are historically not as equipped for new economy jobs? Or will we ensure that kids across the country have equal access to education so their merits can help them rise above the circumstances of their family or their communities?
These are the issues that make me lean toward Democrats rather than Republicans. Life is complicated, many variables, and it's not possible for two choices to capture the best of what we each think is right. But I don't see the end state where people who are suffering think that they will suffer less with a Republican.
Can someone who is suffering but votes republican help me see what they see as a light at the end of the tunnel? Or is it more of an F you, I'm suffering so we're all gonna suffer? I hope there is an actual good that people are chasing rather than just vengeance.
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Norton
Social climber
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Back to my unanswered question...
How is she "evil" as in the lesser of the two?
That point is repeated over and over
I suspect by those who just read it somewhere
And don't know their ass from second base
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
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I think the evil and crooked and other references to Hillary mask the frustration of class struggles more than anything. I suspect that the woman in power issue is less critical than the idea of someone who embodies the privileged elite continuing to make society better for some while not doing enough to fix the immediate problems for the people who suffer. She was saying the right things to make then system as a whole better for the most people, but she did it in a way that didn't reassure the lower eschelons of our society. It seems more like patronizing than empathizing. I think Bernie had the same problem.
So these issues are not in many people's comfort zone to articulate, so they just latch onto
Crooked Hillary!
The irony of course is that Donald embodies all the worst qualities and policies that will hurt his supporters more than anyone else. But he is just smart enough to know what they want to hear, and unscrupulous enough to say it (and follow through on distracting and/or destructive non-solutions) without concern for honesty or integrity of what will actually help more people.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Trump may try to block Comey testimony
^^^latest news headline on my feed
How would this not be obstruction of justice??
Nah, he ain't crooked...
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
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I was thinking that my analysis of the issue of connecting to the most poor and hopeless parts of our society might seem condescending. I don't think that rich privileged well-meaning folks have all the answers for rich and poor alike. But I do trust educated people more to find solutions that address the range of problems identified.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Her negative is mainly her personality.
I am going to agree with you. Hillary comes across as thinking that she was owed the presidency. I didn't like that about her.
I only voted for Hillary because I knew that trump would turn out to be a disaster.
I still blame the Bernie supporters for not voting for her.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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I get that. I wish we had a leader who had credibility and experience of being really poor, not seeing any better prospects in the future, but somehow rose up out of that and was able to relate the personal circumstances of those folks to the societal ideals that some of us are chasing.
We had such a candidate, his name is Bernie Sanders. We had such candidates in the past: Eugene Debs, Norman Thomas. The powers that rule this country will never let such be elected. Debs was becoming more and more popular, he was imprisoned. Thomas was never a threat. Sanders would have been shot, or had an accident, had he somehow beat the system.
This is your American democracy:
The plutocrats will not give up their position willingly.
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Norton
Social climber
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Yep! Hopefully the above-average democrats will nominate an electable candidate next time around.
yes, if the Dems put up a white male who speaks well and has just a little charisma
then they win the White House in 2020
the bigger problem remains the House and Senate
and in the 2018 Midterms coming up it is the Democrats turn to defend a large number of seats
they will probably lose 2-5 Senate seats, and likely pick up a couple of House seats
and so a Dem President and Republican House and Senate, divided government will prevail
just as President Obama had to deal with the last six years of his terms, and nothing got done
we are living in the surreal movie "Idiocracy", and the Deplorables will make sure that continues
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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I for one sure do hope the Democrats run Bernie Sanders or Hillery or some other communist type in 2020....
Lay the cards on the table..... you want free college, free healthcare and more free sh#t go ahead and say it, be honest. Convince the American public that those are all GOOD ideas.
Nut... you over think things to much, you frame your questions as accusations and I don't think for one second you really wish to see things as they really are... only as you wish they were.
Like most Democrats.
Simple answer...most people do not like being told they are stupid by people who claim to be smart, well educated and concerned for everybody. Most people don't like to be told what to do.... the number of guns, the amount of sugar you can consume. Most don't like being told that because they believe in a GOD they are stupid. (even though we don't tell Muslims they are barbaric peoples) Most people don't want to pay more $$$$$$$ to finance stupid pie in the sky ideas. Most people are fed up with the BS that we call government.
Trump is doing just fine... I know this how???
Because most of you liberal types are in a full on panic meltdown and that is a good thing.
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dirtbag
climber
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Because most of you liberal types are in a full on panic meltdown and that is a good thing.
And there you have it. It's all about pissing off the liberals. Always was. Resentment politics.
You have to defeat the trumpkins: you cannot reason with them. Sad, but true.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Simple answer...most people do not like being told they are stupid by people who claim to be smart, well educated and concerned for everybody. Most people don't like to be told what to do.... the number of guns, the amount of sugar you can consume. Most don't like being told that because they believe in a GOD they are stupid. (even though we don't tell Muslims they are barbaric peoples) Most people don't want to pay more $$$$$$$ to finance stupid pie in the sky ideas. Most people are fed up with the BS that we call government. Oh, the irony. tRump wants an Authoritarian government That's telling you what you can, and can't do.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Locker .... I do worry about you to.
XXOOXX
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
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Guy, I think you will pay more in your life and get less in return as a consequence of (edit: the Republican agenda).
You might pay less taxes, but you will get more military spending that will not let the taxes come down that much. And you will have more poisoned food, be surrounded by more desperate people willing to kill you for their next drug fix or their next meal, and you will pay more for your healthcare and get less coverage. Further, you will experience fewer medical advances than people in other countries, and you will live with the burden of knowing you are leaving the next generation with worse prospects for prosperity.
I acknowledge a bias toward framing questions as accusations- especially yesterday when I was bothered by other stuff. I apologize for that. Aside from my strong belief in a perspective that is different from yours, I am sincerely curious and seeking to understand what makes you tick, what perceptions or beliefs make this the lesser evil.
What I have gleaned from your statements is that you measure policy outcomes in terms of the frustration experienced by "the other team." That may be just one of several motives or desires. Do you have ideologies that you are marching toward aside from pissing off liberals? I ask without contempt or any I'll will, just true curiosity. Please take me at face value.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 2, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
So D-bag..... you see this???
You think this is good??
Not in its current form-way too vague. I'm not opposed to a single payer system, though.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Guy.. Free healthcare and free college....? Other wealthy industrialized countries have these programs...Why can't the US finance the same programs ...? Could it be because the 1% have thoroughly brainwashed the masses into believing it's impossible...? Probably so...
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