US national policy issues looming after healthcare?

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NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 24, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
So much has been threatened so quickly, it's hard to stay on top of it all. Can other's chime in with handy links or more info on these and other stuff I've missed?

 H.R. 861 proposal to shut down the EPA! (https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/861/text);

 Budget that will slash NIH funding by 20%, which will cause about 20% of the cancer research labs (and other human health based research) in universities across America to shut down, as their leaders look for alternate careers like community college lecturer. This stuff will NOT be picked up by pharmaceutical industry, because they just cherry-pick the stuff that is nearly profit-ready after a decade or more of government investment in basic research. More info:
https://genestogenomes.org/protest-budget-blueprint/
http://www.faseb.org/Science-Policy-and-Advocacy/Become-an-Advocate/Legislative-Action-Center.aspx


 Change in rules where fed lands can be given to states without accounting for the economic consequences (and the economic consequences are but a small fraction of the long term consequences for our national heritage). That was step 1 in the process of turning over lands to states that are more vulnerable to development interests

 Supreme court nominee... Elizabeth Warren is proposing that a consideration be postponed until after the FBI investigation into Trump and gang is concluded. Logic is that Republicans were fine waiting for a year with no supportable reason, and now the reason is that we can wait a little longer to avoid having a potential convict pick who we are stuck with for decades

 Trump tax transcripts and deeper audit to track down assets around the world, and laws to enforce disclosure and accountability for financial conflicts of interest

 What about all the vacant posts that Trump is not filling?

 FCC, net neutrality, and removal of consumer privacy protections where network providers can sell off every detail they can glean about you when you use the Internet, with no disclosure to you. Can be used by manipulative campaign software to alter election outcomes (such as was used by Cambridge Analytica to alter people's perceptions to get Trump into office).

 Building the wall?

 Immigration blockage based on nationality rather than based on attributes of the individuals? Designed to "stop terrorists" but it doesn't block a single country that gave us the 9/11 hijackers, where Trump has business interests in at least a few of those.

 Trump firing the person leading an investigation in New York that would delay potential discoveries of money laundering and other nefariousness

 What can Trump and gang really do to restore a high level of employment among under-educated people in regions of the country where businesses have no incentive to operate? Some places can get coal or oil jobs, but these have net negative long term consequences for our country, both environmentally and economically as we lag behind other countries in alternative energy development.

-How will Trump and gang deal with increasing unemployment caused by technology automation?







What else is on your radar?
F

climber
away from the ground
Mar 24, 2017 - 07:07pm PT
Sweet thread, bro.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 24, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
Getting rid of the Falsifier In Chief would be a good national policy issue to attend to.

But yes, the EPA is a Biggie.
Dept of State, USAID, Public Broadcasting, Planned Parenthood....
locker

climber
Mar 24, 2017 - 07:30pm PT


Well written NutAgain...

On the mark...

BJ

climber
Mar 24, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
-How will Trump and gang deal with increasing unemployment caused by technology automation?

He has some really great ideas about this, cooked up by some really smart people. First, we are going to out law automation and machines. All those ditches, walls and moats you see being built up at the Mexico border? Using foriegn machines like Caterpillar, John Deere and International? Soon that wall will be built using just American labor and American hand tools, by good Americans with American names like Jose and like Jose.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Mar 24, 2017 - 08:41pm PT
Stay up on the news and determine how you need to find the facts...

... as best suits you. It ain't easy...
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Mar 24, 2017 - 08:46pm PT
This is a CLIMBING site. Stop posting political crap. Especially the same, tired crap.
BJ

climber
Mar 24, 2017 - 08:49pm PT
Lets go to KFC!
locker

climber
Mar 24, 2017 - 08:52pm PT


"This is a CLIMBING site."...

and you're on a "CLIMBERS" forum...


Hint, hint...


;-)
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 24, 2017 - 08:54pm PT
It's staggering the amount of protections that have been curtailed at the behest of industry and greed. Unprecedented. And the moron in the White House either doesn't know or doesn't care about the consequences, or even the why.

I can't wait to see what intelligent contributions that Jody makes to this thread.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 25, 2017 - 08:35pm PT

The massive increase in defense spending, especially on nukes.
jstan

climber
Mar 25, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
I would love to have been a fly on the wall to hear the conversation between Bill and Hillary following Donald's statement encouraging Putin to hack a US function. When a putative leader says something like this, who knows what some wing nut may do?
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Mar 25, 2017 - 09:29pm PT
I can't wait to see what intelligent contributions that Jody makes to this thread.

H.R. 861 proposal to shut down the EPA!

Shutting down the EPA would make me happier than repealing Obummercare.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Mar 25, 2017 - 10:22pm PT
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 25, 2017 - 10:27pm PT
The massive increase in defense spending, especially on nukes

And a president who has opposed nuclear weapons all his life has wound up asking Congress to fund a new class of ballistic missile submarine, a new stealth bomber, upgrades to the current stock of nuclear weapons, a new cruise missile and billions of dollars of other programs.


from npr

So we are building a fleet of 12 ballistic missile subs, doomsday machines, to replace our cold war Ohio Class boats. Each sub carries 24 missiles. Each missile carries 8 to 12 independently targeted warheads. Thus one boat can deliver around 240 warheads that make Hiroshima look like a firecracker.

This has gone on during Obama's watch. These baby's come at the estimated price of $5B ea.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 26, 2017 - 07:44am PT
Kris
You're very correct about this. But Trump wants more.
And to think he's the guy with the football--now that's REALLY
scary!!!!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:07am PT
Why do we build 'em if we're not gonna use 'em?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:38am PT
Unlike Trumpcare , which was an incoherent set of policies with no constituency , nuclear weapons could serve a certain constituency with social benefits included..
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:40am PT
Want to talk about government waste? I worked on the B-2 bomber project designing composite tooling; I saw so much bullshit and waste I just shook my head and took my money. I could tell stories ...... The B-2 cost a cool $1,000,000,000 each - and that was for an airplane. Defense spending in this country is a joke and a welfare program for the 'defense' industry.

@ Jody. If ending the EPA gives you that nice tingly feeling then you're an idiot. The EPA was one of the best things to come from good old Nixon; you must be too young to remember the awful smog, leaded gasoline, sh#t dumped into rivers and lakes, acid rain, and etc. Sure, private industry will police themselves for the good of the country - not. Profit can't and shouldn't be the only motivator in life. Oddly enough, all these programs actually had reasons for their creation. Yes, some EPA regulations might be over the top, but to throw the baby out with the bathwater is just stupid.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:46am PT
Shutting down the EPA would make me happier than repealing Obummercare.

I am praying for you. . . . . Again, sheesh!
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:48am PT
Nobel laureate and former NIH Director Varmus explains how 45's proposed cuts would extinguish the US lead in biomedical research and innovation.

And of course the proposed cuts to NOAA, NSF, EPA etc. are even worse.

The GOP policy goal is — apparently — to make United States as a nation as stupid as the stupidest people in the GOP.
locker

climber
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:52am PT


A "Natural Landscape" photographer that is in SUPPORT of getting rid of the EPA???...

Something seems OFF with THAT picture...

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 26, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
Flaming rivers and smoggy sunsets make great postcards..
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Mar 26, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
^^^^

rj: someday i owe you a beer or four for all of the out loud laughs you've given me over the years...
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Mar 26, 2017 - 01:38pm PT
^^^^^

Waste of beer.
Buy him a, Penile Implant!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 26, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
Nahoo...Thanks...send beer and hold the implant...
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Mar 26, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
and hold the implant...


TMI!!!

Credit: Cosmiccragsman

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 26, 2017 - 05:18pm PT
Back to the nuke thing for a minute...

as-us-modernizes-nuclear-weapons-smaller-leaves-some-uneasy


"Gen. James E. Cartwright, a retired vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who was among Mr. Obama’s most influential nuclear strategists, said he backed the upgrades because precise targeting allowed the United States to hold fewer weapons. But “what going smaller does,” he acknowledged, “is to make the weapon more thinkable.”
As Mr. Obama enters his final year in office, the debate has deep implications for military strategy, federal spending and his legacy.
The B61 Model 12, the bomb flight-tested last year in Nevada, is the first of five new warhead types planned as part of an atomic revitalization estimated to cost up to $1 trillion over three decades. As a family, the weapons and their delivery systems move toward the small, the stealthy and the precise."


Edit: Meant to add that this trend when combined with a President who has stated he might use them is a bad situation.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 26, 2017 - 06:35pm PT

Not only that, Kris, but the price tag. We could buy a lot
of healthcare for that amount. . .
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 26, 2017 - 09:50pm PT
Let's see who knew what they were doing in running the country:


locker

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 08:20am PT

^^^

Too bad the timing went so far south on Biden...

He would have made a good President...
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Mar 27, 2017 - 09:11am PT
^^^^^^

I agree.
If Biden had run I would have voted for him.

I've even said that before.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 27, 2017 - 10:00am PT
I don't really dig all the political name calling that sometimes accompanies these threads, but:

1) Some people (NutAgain) actually try to elevate the conversation and keep it focused on the issues at hand.

2) Political discourse has it's place, even on a climbers forum.

3) Let's face it, some of the issues facing our nation are more important than climbing.



Clip of the day: Ted Koppel tells Hannity that he's bad for America to his face because "You have attracted people who have determined that ideology is more important than facts."


Go Ted.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/03/27/ted-koppel-sean-hannity-cbs-sje-mobile-orig.cnn
locker

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 10:04am PT

"OnTheIssuesLogo

Joe Biden on Abortion

Vice President; previously Democratic Senator (DE)





Sub-sections under Abortion: •Voting Record
•Other issues under Abortion




I accept church rule personally, but not in public life
Q: What role your religion has played in your own personal views on abortion?
RYAN: I don't see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith.

BIDEN: My religion defines who I am. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, people who need help. With regard to abortion, I accept my church's position that life begins at conception. That's the church's judgment. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and--I just refuse to impose that on others, unlike my friend here, the congressman. I do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that women can't control their body. It's a decision between them and their doctor, in my view. And the Supreme Court--I'm not going to interfere with that.

Source: 2012 Vice Presidential debate , Oct 11, 2012"
...




#FAKEchristians...


If you're a supposed "Christian", then you would NOT vote for someone in support of abortion...

Right???...

So to have voted for Joe Biden would have been to vote FOR, abortion...

Right???...



Thus the reason so many SUPPOSED "CHRISTIANS" voted for Trump???...(Like some here said they would on the ABORTION basis alone)...

Right???...

Or so some have claimed...

Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Mar 27, 2017 - 10:23am PT
i HATE APPLE. INDEED I HATE THIS WORTHLESS LOUSY IDIOT Thing WHICH IS CALLED Ipad.

That wasn't the original post, but as it disappeared you got a frustrated screaming instead.
My apologies, but it's the plain truth.


Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Mar 27, 2017 - 01:12pm PT
So to have voted for Joe Biden would have been to vote FOR, abortion...

Right???...




No.
It's already the law.
However, I still don't believe in abortion.
Except in certain special cases

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 27, 2017 - 01:17pm PT
Biden would have been OK

But I lost all respect after I found out that he sold out to the Banksters and made it impossible for College loans to be subject to bankruptcy

Biden Backs Legislation Preventing $150 Billion of Student Loan Debt from being Discharged or Renegotiated

http://projectcensored.org/biden-backs-legislation-preventing-150-billion-student-loan-debt-discharged-renegotiated/


if your policies make people suffer, then they are not truly Christian.

Christian/Liberal policies REDUCE Suffering, not increase it
locker

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 01:56pm PT

"No.
It's already the law."
...



And that's exactly WHY you said you supported and would only vote for TRUMP...

Because he wanted to overturn THAT law (as do many Republicans)...


So to back peddle now is...

back peddling...



EDITED:


You WANTED Trump...

OWN IT!!!...

;-)



Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Mar 27, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
Not back peddling.

Go check my posts way back before the election
I said I would have voted for Biden if he had run.

And yes, I own it.
I'd rather Trump in Office than
Hillary.

Biden would have been better than either of them.
And if he does run in 4 years I would vote for him.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 27, 2017 - 02:09pm PT

Commentator Tomi Lahren’s time is apparently over at TheBlaze, according to a new report from the New York Post’s “Page Six.”


Glenn Beck’s network suspended the 24-year-old Lahren’s show, “Tomi,” last week after she called anti-abortion conservatives “hypocrites.”


“I’m pro-choice,” Lahren said during an interview on “The View” earlier this month, “and here’s why: I can’t sit here and be a hypocrite and say I’m for limited government but I think that the government should decide what women should do with their bodies.”

so many hypocrites on the right
locker

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 02:14pm PT

"I said I would have voted for Biden if he had run."...

Yes you did...

and it too was a...

back peddle...



You flat out told me that you would only vote for a person that was "PRO LIFE"...

and that would NOT have been Biden...(EDITED: But it was/is part of Trumps/Repubs agenda)...



EDITED:

And you already posted that you voted for TRUMP so own it and stand PROUD next to your ANTI AMERICAN NUT CASE...

LOL!!!...

The dude is bonkers...

as well as a LOSER!!!...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/03/27/trump-approval-rating-gallup/99706264/

Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Mar 27, 2017 - 02:43pm PT
Norma McCorvey aka Jane Roe backpeddled also.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/roe-wants-abortion-case-reversed/
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 27, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
Don't like abortions
Don't have one

Case Closed

Unless you want to be a hypocrite and have the Government force people to comply with your selfish religious beliefs that Control What Women can and can't do.

In other words, make women suffer!
So it's not a Christian policy, it's a Big Government Right Wing Male Dominance Policy
locker

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 02:49pm PT


"Norma McCorvey aka Jane Roe backpeddled also."...


and of course that means EVERYONE should agree...


I get it now...


THANKS!!!...




NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
Safe working conditions going into the toilet... why even bother with OSHA at this point if the government will still do big contracts with companies that cut corners to save money while injuring and killing employees?

http://thehill.com/regulation/325963-trump-repeals-blacklisting-rule

I wonder how the Trump supporters here fall (see what I did there?) on this issue. Say you work for a nation-wide window washing company that makes you rap in on 4mm cord. Heck, only 0.1% of the 10,000 workers in the company die each year, but they save $2M in materials. And they win the government contracts because they have the lowest price! Do you think that would be reasonable? Do you think our government has any responsibility toward its citizens in terms of hiring companies that follow the laws, that create safer working conditions for its employees?

Here is a real life example of the crappy company behavior that will be unleashed by this repealed regulation. Nothing to be happy about.
http://www.prwatch.org/news/2016/03/13059/safety-violations-billion-dollar-contractor-bae-systems-should-have-disclose
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 27, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
I've got a theory about the failed health care bill...

It's a mistake to underestimate Trump. What he just did was to get healthcare off the table.

My opinion is that Trump doesn't give two sh*ts about health care, and the last thing he wants is to spend the rest of his first term getting tied up in knots over how to replace the ACA. So he's willing to take a black eye (in the view of the public and the pundits) to get it out of his way.

All this talk about this being a rookie mistake is just that, talk. He's got two highly experienced Washington insiders on his flank: Ryan and Pence. Their bill was bound to fail, too far right for Democrat support and not radical enough to fly with the tea partiers. So, for all purposes, they tabled the healthcare subject for the foreseeable future.

If you don't think the guy can be shrewd, read up on how he won Wisconsin without setting a foot in the state. Talk about a sandbag...

But if he loses the Gorsuch nomination he'll be damaged badly. So the Democrats were originally going to be soft on the Gorsuch nomination, to keep their powder dry for the next one. But seeing the opportunity to cause serious damage they're changing their focus to the current battle. Trump is effectively gambling his success on getting Gorsuch through, and the battle is going to get bloody.

Just a thought...
c wilmot

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
Nutagain- the gov does not care about its own workers. They are on of biggest offenders in terms of employee abuse. You lose your workers comp claim? You appeal to the gov tou got injured working for. When I contacted them about my case- they only wanted to know how I had found their contact info.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2017 - 04:39pm PT
A perfect follow-up story to what we will get more of with the worker safety and government contractor issue:
Inside Alabama’s Auto Jobs Boom: Cheap Wages, Little Training, Crushed Limbs - Bloomberg
https://apple.news/A83SeIUsPT9Gq34T1klzcaQ


c_wilmot, do you think the solution is to give up on the concept of worker protections entirely, or to fix the places where the ideals of protecting workers are not met? When you hurt a finger at work, do you chop off a different one to spite the first one for making you feel pain?

P.s. Sorry you had to deal with a claim and even more sorry it was difficult to deal with against our own government
c wilmot

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
I would say the gov should work on protecting its own employees first. Does the gov actually care about workers ? Not from the first hand experiences I have had. And that's at both the federal and state level.
When a worker died on a job site I was on OSHA came in and spent most of their time fining my uncle for minor violations related to painting rather than investigating the cause of the fatal accident - which had nothing to do with my uncles company. It was obvious they were there strictly for show- they didn't make anything or anyone safer. The worker who was the victim remained dead

I understand osha is important and it should stay - but we lead workers in to believe the gov can keep you safe or at least will protect you if injured on the job but that is just not the case.
Power Crux

climber
You call that a send?
Mar 27, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
I've got a theory about the failed health care bill...

It's a mistake to underestimate Trump. What he just did was to get healthcare off the table.

LOL, there are STILL suckers out there that think Trump has some master plan!

Here is the reason he is failing on everything:

He doesn't know what the f*#k he's doing.

locker

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 05:59pm PT


^^^

LOL!!! and of course, CORRECT!!!...

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:07pm PT
Trump's a fish out of water , a one trick pony.. He's pretending he's still in the private sector playing poker with other rich people's money.. The right wing nut jobs in congress just handed him his ass on Trumpcare.. More proof that corporate wanna be businessmen should avoid governing as a second career..
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
Trump's first major policy negotiation was a total failure. Trying to spin it any other way is just ..... Sad!
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
so wilmot's uncle is the fed?
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
3) Let's face it, some of the issues facing our nation are more important than climbing.

+1

Keep in mind that if trump gets his way and starts selling off public lands, the number of climbing locales will probably be reduced.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
rump's first major policy negotiation was a total failure. Trying to spin it any other way is just ..... Sad!

If you're referring to my remarks, I'm not trying to spin anything. My only point is that other than a "black eye," as I called it, the whole scenario plays to his hand unless he loses the Gorsuch fight.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
Some Republicans that met in private with Trump over the GOP health care bill were shocked how ignorant he was about the provisions in the bill.. Guess they thought they were dealing with a brain surgeon...? Republcian voters who were interviewed said they hated Obamacare but loved the ACA..
Power Crux

climber
You call that a send?
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:54pm PT
f you're referring to my remarks, I'm not trying to spin anything.

LOL

My opinion is that Trump doesn't give two sh*ts about health care

But you are right about that one. He doesn't give two sh*ts about Americans.



Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 27, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
The word "spin" implies support. Give me a break.
Power Crux

climber
You call that a send?
Mar 27, 2017 - 07:10pm PT
The only thing more pathetic than a Trump supporter is a closet Trump supporter.

After five paragraphs of oozing praise, you're out of the closet.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 27, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
Ksolem, not referring to anyone in particular, but his vaunted negotiation skills are a sham. He is a bully, and that won't fly in dysfunctional D.C.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 27, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
After five paragraphs of oozing praise, you're out of the closet

LOL, Clueless.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Mar 27, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
anybody who assumes their opponent is necessarily without strategy does themselves as much a disservice as assuming their opponent is necessarily playing six dimensional chess...

thanks for the thoughts Ksolem...

time, as always, will tell.



regardless... so far the dems [minus a few like Bernie, who is still out there being Bernie] and most of their supporters continue to get played like fiddles.

when the bow gets pulled, the strings sing a reactionary song.
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Mar 27, 2017 - 10:36pm PT
Ksolem, I agree with your assessment.

How many times people underestimated Trump? Too many!

Moose
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 28, 2017 - 05:30am PT
You appeal to the gov you got injured working for. When I contacted them about my case- they only wanted to know how I had found their contact info.

Wait. After all this anti-guberment, fringe-right wailing it turns out you actually work for the guberment? F*#k me, that's just too damn rich and hilarious. Gotta love it when they're whining at the tit.
c wilmot

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 08:56am PT
Healyje - I used to work for the gov . And trust me- I gave way more than I got back. All with the ideal to help others enjoy the wilderness. Thanks for the appreciation
John M

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 10:07am PT
C wilmot, your problem is that you seem to believe that its government that is the problem, when in reality it is people who are the problem. It doesn't matter whether its private industry or government, and it doesn't matter whether its big or small institutions. The thing that they all have in common is people. Some people are decent and want to work hard and be fair, and others don't and aren't.

Both industry and government serve a purpose. Each form is better suited for certain kinds of purpose. Such as government is a better form for fire protection. In the days when fire protection was a private enterprise, many stories are told of fire departments fighting with each other over who puts out the fire, meanwhile the house or business burned down. So people joined together and made it part of a government service. Did that make it perfect? Of course not. Why? because people are not perfect. Some are corrupt and nasty, and some are decent and fair. And you will run into those same people in both government and private enterprise.

And by the way.. if you built trails in Yosemite, I hiked and ran many of those trials and always appreciated the work involved. So thanks.. I have many fond memories of Yosemite and met many nice people who worked there. A few as#@&%es too.. :-) not saying that you are the latter.
locker

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 10:18am PT

Egg-zak-lee...

"you seem to believe that its government that is the problem, when in reality it is people who are the problem. It doesn't matter whether its private industry or government, and it doesn't matter whether its big or small institutions. The thing that they all have in common is people. Some people are decent and want to work hard and be fair, and others don't and aren't. "...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 28, 2017 - 10:24am PT
The Government is Not a Business and should never be run like one

The Government is a Charity and only a charity is in the business of giving money away.

The Charity can be corrupt and run only to help the 1% and the those that get the bribes (R)
or it can be socially responsible and run to help those in the most need, and to maintain a healthy middle class (D)
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Mar 28, 2017 - 12:19pm PT

A charity? Thats really ridiculous even as a Democrat. Meanwhile as everyone engages in Worthless commentaries, the oil is rolling..

https://www.sott.net/article/346575-Energy-Transfer-Partners-announced-oil-placed-in-Dakota-Access-Pipeline-as-service-set-to-begin
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 28, 2017 - 12:26pm PT
The Government is Not a Business and should never be run like one

The government wastes billions because of that kind of thinking.

And Democrats govern out of altruism and don't take bribes either. Yep.
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Mar 28, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
"you seem to believe that its government that is the problem, when in reality it is people who are the problem. It doesn't matter whether its private industry or government, and it doesn't matter whether its big or small institutions. The thing that they all have in common is people. Some people are decent and want to work hard and be fair, and others don't and aren't. "...

I disagree.

People are the same everywhere. It's the culture in the institution that make people work efficiently or not. I worked for a few biotech companies. Some created an excellent environment for the employee, some were terrible, government is one of the later.

Employees need inspiration, incentives, health safety, and... termination of employment if they do not perform. Government can't create that.

Moose
John M

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
Government can't create that.

sure they can. People create the culture.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2017 - 03:55pm PT
A charity? Thats really ridiculous even as a Democrat.

The primary reason for corporations to exist is to make a profit. I learned that in accounting and managerial finance classes. Whenever there is a conflict with regard to social policies or environment, etc... the first choice is to maximize shareholder value.


A government doesn't exist to make a profit. A government exists (hopefully) to provide a social and economic and legal framework for citizens to live harmoniously and pursue their happiness. In this sense, a government IS a charity- a non-profit organization- to collect revenues and deploy them for the common good. A minimalist construction of the common good is "a legal system to protect my property rights, roads to travel around, a protection from highway robbers, and defense from foreign invaders." A more inclusive definition of the common good includes a spectrum of services related to education, healthcare, and in the future world with automation requiring very few human workers, there will need to be some baseline method to provide a source of income to meet the baseline living expenses of every citizen (or just kill them all if they don't have jobs - take yer pick).

Many people get caught up on the fairness/rightness of wealth redistribution, taking my hard earned income and giving it to other slackers. People who subscribe to this don't realize how most of us will soon be in the category of "slackers" and the only ones with "hard earned income" will be those who own all the machines, and that pool of people will keep shrinking over time.

But the point remains, that while a government should be run with the efficiency and professionalism of a well-run business, it in fact exists for a purpose entirely different than a corporation intended to make a profit. This is fundamentally why it is unacceptable to close down government agencies and rely on private industry to perform those roles.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 28, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
The number one policy issue after healthcare is impeaching the despot for treason.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 28, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
^^ No! Leave the ineffectual goof in charge for the next few years. Pence is smart AND vicious. That bastard will set us back 50 years.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 28, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
he's reportedly moving on to tax code distillation after his success, bigly, with healthcare policy.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 28, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
Biden Backs Legislation Preventing $150 Billion of Student Loan Debt from being Discharged or Renegotiated

Comrade Craig: It is awfully republican of you to not mention or link what was negotiated in return for this.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 28, 2017 - 09:04pm PT
My opinion is that Trump doesn't give two sh*ts about health care, and the last thing he wants is to spend the rest of his first term getting tied up in knots over how to replace the ACA.

So he's willing to take a black eye (in the view of the public and the pundits) to get it out of his way.

And yet, the front page of the NY Times today cites that re-negotiations on the health plan are already underway.......
WBraun

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
Such boring sh!t here.

You guys ever say anything that hasn't already been rehashed for days already all over the news.

OK, I got it!

Your answers are NO.

Yer all just parrots I see ........
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 28, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
Boring...? Let's talk about leather...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
Want to protect your Internet privacy in the face of failing government that neglects the protection of the citizenry?

Edit: This was a post about Tor and Onion Routing, but I posted prematurely before I realized how ignorant I was on the subject and what is the state of the art and status of government cracking... This spot reserved for an update when I figure out more. I'm checking out I2P and others now.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
Another voice echoing sentiments I've already shared here, saying what anyone with a spec of intelligence should realize:
http://fortune.com/2017/03/29/house-vote-internet-privacy-congress-legislation-online-regulation-protection/

No way a person can contort themselves into logical knots to construe this as making America great again. Not one person here will have their lives improved by this, and some are certain to lose career opportunities or insurance coverage in the future because of this, and it can and will be used to suppress political dissidents, to blackmail whistle-blowers, as well as more effectively manipulate all of us by what content we are exposed to.

I very purposefully tried to focus on policy issues in this thread rather than a popularity contest of people in office. The silly sports-team mindset that we have in America between Democrats and distracts our focus from the really important differences in policy perspectives, and the only way I see getting past the hoo-rah for each sides preferred team, is to focus on what is actually happening and how it screws or helps us. In the end that is what really makes a difference in our lives, aside from whatever illusory comforts we get from feeling like we are united in celebration of being on a "winning" team or united in grief being on the "losing" team. We are all one country and focusing on the teams will be the downfall of us all.

So keep a tally of which policies you think will make your life better, will make your friends and families' lives better, and what will be the consequences for our nation that ultimately have more long-term impacts for each of us personally.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 29, 2017 - 06:41pm PT

Well, the swamp hasn't been emptied yet, so I see no improvement
in my life.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Mar 29, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
We are not one country. What would make you think we are? There's zero evidence. Sorry, but you need to make sure your team wins and get over that ideological silliness.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Mar 29, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
NutAgain!, am looking forward to your analysis of Tor and I2P. I hadn't heard of the latter until now.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Apr 1, 2017 - 08:12am PT
Sixty-two percent of voters disapprove of GOP lawmakers in Congress, according to a new McClatchy-Marist Poll, more than double the 27 percent who said they approve.

That’s a 10-point swing from last month, when 57 percent of voters disapproved and 32 percent approved.

The biggest drop in support came from the GOP’s electoral base


Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/article142031649.html#emlnl=Morning_Newsletter#storylink=cpy

DMT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 1, 2017 - 08:55am PT
Maybe some of the Republican voters have finally put 2 + 2 together ( Trumpcare ) and figured out the clowns they elected are going to screw them in a yuge way..?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 1, 2017 - 09:06am PT

Are these the same polls that predicted the election of HRC by 87%.....?????


We have him for almost 4 more years ..... maybe even more.

get usta it.

but rest assured if Crooked Hilley had been elected, US californians would be getting the double pump..... one from Jerry and the other end from her.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 1, 2017 - 09:20am PT
Guyman... Or trump could wind up like Dicky Trick impeached and exiled to Kiev...? Not looking too well for the cheeto mobster holed up in a Floridian white house...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 1, 2017 - 09:42am PT
RJ..... All is going well.

Do really think like Maxine Watters?

Are you all hysterical about the Russian's??????

this is exactly as I wished it to be... lies and dysfunction from the Democrats and the Republicans .... If you recall correctly..... both parties hate Donald.

Maybe when the vast majority see exactly how these crooks work, both sides, they will wise up and push the extremists to the edges --fringe-- and some sensible folks will work together to maybe get some good done.

I only hope.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2017 - 02:26pm PT
We already no EPA is being gutted with specific plans to eliminate it entirely. So more poisoned air and water.

So it should be no surprise that consumer protections of the food we eat will be rolled back too. Amidst growing evidence that glyphosate causes major human health problems (Roundup weed killer from Monsanto- the reason they wanted to make genetically engineered plants so they can just blanket spray the stuff over all crops we eat), now we have the US Dept of Agriculture suspending tests for this poison:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/usda-drops-plan-to-test-for-monsanto-weed-killer-in_us_58d2db4ee4b062043ad4af84

Glyphosate is used in almost all wheat, corn, soy, and gluten-free grain substitutes in America, and even products labeled Organic have tested with glyphosate poison residues. We are all bombarded with it in North America. Here are links to human health:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/


So while the USA is turning a blind eye to something that might be poisoning hundreds of millions of people in our country, here is what is happening in places that still embrace "facts":
http://sustainablepulse.com/2016/07/12/eu-member-states-support-restrictions-of-use-for-glyphosate-herbicides/#.V8BUJfl97IU

http://sustainablepulse.com/2016/08/26/italian-health-ministry-places-strict-restrictions-on-glyphosate-herbicide-use/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 1, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
Guy...would you like that Roundup double latte with soy and honey..?
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Apr 1, 2017 - 07:08pm PT

And it sounds like the Bureau of Livestock and Mining will be
OPEN FOR BIDNESS again. . .
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Apr 1, 2017 - 08:56pm PT
Are these the same polls

Nope!

Cheers
DMT
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 1, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
Crankster is right. We've descended (or, more accurately, the Republicans) into tribalism where people will abandon all rational thought and vote for something against their own best interest solely to punish the other tribe. It is evident to the everyone but the Republicans (and even some of them grudgingly admit it nonetheless) that Trump is an absolute trainwreck, yet we continue to hear glee from the right that all is well, solely because the left is so angry about it. Maybe we should give teenagers the right to vote. Much of the right displays the same level of maturity.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 2, 2017 - 09:28am PT
Nut..... buy products that are certified to not contain sh#t you don't like.....

DMT..... so what "polls" do you look at??? I would like to know. In the news and your statement it is always.... just "polls"

Fat.... change your statement to "Pepublicans and Democrats" and I would pretty much agree with you...... except the teenagers part -- why give more non-tax paying citizens the right to vote?


Face it.... these children in our Government- both sides- are only interested in their PARTYS own shallow bull sh#t.

Not what is best for all of us.

Fight on, boys.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 2, 2017 - 11:13am PT
Nut..... buy products that are certified to not contain sh#t you don't like.....

Might as well, because the regulatory bodies that exist to enforce that the certification is real and accurate, just got gutted so as to be non-functional......

Better hire your own inspectors to check the cleanliness of meat, the integrity of airplanes, etc.

Of course, if they are found deficient, you can only walk away, because YOUR inspector has no enforcement mechanisms.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 2, 2017 - 11:36am PT
This will inject Darwinism back into the illiteracy issue as well as
bring back Victory Gardens!
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Apr 2, 2017 - 03:42pm PT
Thnx again to Nutagain, for trying.
I don't know my bible readings but the on most suitable has to do with seeds landing on un fertile ground.
The way that so many are still blind to the fall of the republic and the mis appropriation of hard won freedoms , yet to be taken, but that allow another foreign power to take control of 1/2the planet , fits to a tee.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 2, 2017 - 03:44pm PT
How's the "Ain't Russia great?" crap working out for comrade Drumpf so far?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2017 - 03:33pm PT
Channeling my inner MadBolter with the wall of text.

This article on hi-tech worker immigration gets the story pretty darn right. It might be one of the first areas of the Trump agenda where I agree his intention is going in the right direction (fingers crossed that they won't totally screw it up and throw out the baby with the bath water though):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/04/03/this-one-group-gets-70-percent-of-high-skilled-foreign-worker-visas/?utm_term=.66c81f034084

I have direct personal experience with this issue from multiple perspectives:
 as a spouse of an H1-B worker from India
 as a person whose coworkers and most friends followed the template of bachelors degree in engineering in India, F-1 visa for computer science masters degree in USA, then H1B visa at a company where they were stuck until they got a green card. These folks are in a different eschelon than the ones brought straight from India for hourly consulting work.
 as the owner of a small tech recruiting company in silicon valley in the late 90s and again a few years after the dotcom crash, competing against companies with H1B candidates willing to work for much less than my candidates
 as a hiring person in a big companies interviewing these candidates
 as a contractor getting called by these companies offering me jobs at pennies on the dollar for what I was getting on my own.


One thing that is very true that many people don't understand... there are tons of people looking for jobs but also tons of jobs that go unfilled because there just aren't enough qualified candidates. Many jobs need more than a warm body to fill a chair. About 13 years ago at Webex, my team had the HR department sit with us in interviews because they thought we were doing something wrong to reject everyone for 6 months. They believed us when they saw in person what we needed and that the candidates weren't good enough. It retrospect, it may have been in part because we got bottom-of-the-barrel candidates because of lower advertised salary range. It was the lowest I got paid at any point in my career relative to my skills and experience, but I took it because of melting down marriage and related circumstances. But in some fields, it's just plain hard to find qualified people. And if you cut off the H1B options, it can become impossible. So the H1B program is really truly needed.

On the other hand, the system is terribly exploited and used to depress the wages that American workers can receive, and it might cause some firms to decline a qualified American worker because they'd rather have a slightly less qualified person who can't quit. This dynamic alters the supply and demand equation and might make it seem like there are less qualified workers than there really are, creating a self-reinforcing theme of not enough qualified workers in America so need more foreign workers, but it's really just not enough workers willing to do that job at the market price given the present of H1B candidates. It really can be a type of hi-tech slavery. I was aware of a variety of folks stuck in the situation, and a variety of companies doing it to their workers, that would get H1B candidates over here and stack them up in shared housing, shared bedrooms, and not pay them unless they were out billing with a customer. The people can't legally change jobs unless they find another company willing to sponsor them, or they have to go back where they came from. But they are accustomed to more financial hardship in India so they tolerate it. The culture in India used to be (might be changing now with more exchange with USA) extremely hierarchical where employees are subservient to their bosses and put up with whatever crap they have to.


But our government is part of the problem in a few ways:
1. Not taking a leadership role in sufficiently promoting education as a vitally important value to make America great again. So we don't generate enough qualified applicants to fill our own jobs. We need to hire foreign workers to keep our nation from imploding. The job I got in silicon valley after college used skills that were not taught at the time I was going to college, so our education system lagged behind what the market needed.

2. The H1B visa process is onerous, and the system naturally favors big parasite middle-man companies that can afford to pre-pay thousands for applications and sit on them for many months.

3. Our government should have a process that individuals can figure out how to submit the required forms and get them turned around more quickly, without needing to hire a lawyer. That means bigger government staff to process the applications for fast turn-around while still enabling whatever security/validation checks they do.

4. Our government should champion reforms in the financial and banking industries to counteract the ruthless pursuit of profit as the only reason for companies to exist. Companies are focused on earnings per share, and this comes at the expense of investment in people like companies used to do. Companies used to hire smart people from college, train them in whatever was the latest stuff that was needed (which increased the value of the employee), and then both parties would benefit from the arrangement. Now people have to pay for their own training certifications to get a contract job where a middle-man company rapes half of the pay, and smart people graduating from college without specific skills that the company needs have a harder time getting hired.


Some aspects of this that no government can't fix... for every high-tech job, there is a huge market pay range that has little to do with actual skill or merit and more to do with negotiations, power, information, timing, ability to walk away from the transaction. It would be a disaster to have government try to regulate fixed payscales for every job classification. It would cause more unemployment as people with high skills found more creative ways to get paid better and refused to take the low payscale jobs. A company is always going to prefer to pay someone less for the same job if they can get it done, so there is no clean way to keep the H1B process for when you really can't find a person, versus when you just want a cheaper person.


There might be many people unemployed or underemployed or taking extended time off because they are not willing to work for the low level of pay they can earn at depressed market rates. Killing off the middle-man companies using H1B workers would go a long way to balance things, to still enable hiring companies to use the H1B system to supplement American workers, but they would be forced to hire more American workers for more money if it was less easy to get the H1B workes.

It is a delicate balance and I don't know where to draw the line, but stopping H1B visas for companies that only provide consulting services to other companies would go a long way.

Just please don't kill the H1B program! That would be like killing our national healthcare system because parasitic middle-man companies are exploiting it for great profit... oh wait.

Edit: ok, enough venting for the day, I need a self-imposed exile for the rest of the day to get stuff done.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 3, 2017 - 03:48pm PT
Nut, you have to ask yourself, what IS Trump's intention?

Not what he says, but what he actually wants.

I believe that his intention is to bolster the advantages that large employers have abusing these visas. Expect the program to be expanded, or at the least, left alone with all it's problems that you cite.
c wilmot

climber
Apr 3, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
Not qualified or jobs that Americans are no longer willing to do?

Personally I was hoping the h1b Visa program was massively expanded. That way the people who have been unaffected by illegals would start to understand why the lower class has been upset.
If you think competing against foreign workers being paid legal wages is unfair- just think of what competing against foreign workers being paid illegal wages is like
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Apr 3, 2017 - 10:29pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/30/politics/who-is-clint-watts/index.html

Q: who is he?
A: the next target of alt faux breitfart birther swiftboat media.

Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Apr 4, 2017 - 08:57am PT


DMT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 4, 2017 - 09:46am PT
This 4 part Story from the LA Times is a great read


Our Dishonest President

Part I
Our Dishonest President

Part II
Why Trump Lies

Part III
Trump's Authoritarian Vision

Part IV
Wednesday

By The Times Editorial Board

April 2, 2017
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-ed-our-dishonest-president/

It was no secret during the campaign that Donald Trump was a narcissist and a demagogue who used fear and dishonesty to appeal to the worst in American voters. The Times called him unprepared and unsuited for the job he was seeking, and said his election would be a “catastrophe.”

Still, nothing prepared us for the magnitude of this train wreck. Like millions of other Americans, we clung to a slim hope that the new president would turn out to be all noise and bluster, or that the people around him in the White House would act as a check on his worst instincts, or that he would be sobered and transformed by the awesome responsibilities of office.

Instead, seventy-some days in — and with about 1,400 to go before his term is completed — it is increasingly clear that those hopes were misplaced.

In a matter of weeks, President Trump has taken dozens of real-life steps that, if they are not reversed, will rip families apart, foul rivers and pollute the air, intensify the calamitous effects of climate change and profoundly weaken the system of American public education for all.

His attempt to de-insure millions of people who had finally received healthcare coverage and, along the way, enact a massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich has been put on hold for the moment. But he is proceeding with his efforts to defang the government’s regulatory agencies and bloat the Pentagon’s budget even as he supposedly retreats from the global stage.

read more at link
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Apr 4, 2017 - 09:51am PT
Credit: guido
Norton

Social climber
Apr 4, 2017 - 10:13am PT
now name all the Repubs not supporting universal healthcare....

easy, right?

how many Repubs in the House and Senate?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 4, 2017 - 11:34am PT
When we talk about healthcare, it is difficult to envision how it can be done for the whole population.

How is it possible?

It has been posted before, but this film gives the examples of 5 different ways that it is actually done in different countries, and a flavor of how it works. Frontline does it's usual great job. (and all 5 are a LOT cheaper, and provides better average care than the US:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/sickaroundtheworld/
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 18, 2017 - 11:06am PT
WaPost:

Atom-smashing scientists are unnerved by harsh Trump budget


The president wants the federal government to spend less on science and medicine, saying the cuts would encourage private-sector investment. Researchers at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, however, say the U.S. needs federal science dollars to compete with China.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2017 - 11:20am PT
I'm curious to understand the perspective of small-government folks when it comes to science. Do you believe that government has a role in advancing human knowledge in areas where there is no short-term payoff to encourage business investment? Do you recognize that things we depend on in our daily lives would never have been invented by private industry because it took too long and didn't have a clear profit waiting at that end?

Where do you draw the line in government funding for molecular biology and genetics (cancer research), other types of medical research, energy storage systems, alternative energy production methods, etc.

There is an argument based on improving our health and longevity, and an argument in terms of global economic competition and promoting jobs in our country.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2017 - 11:45am PT
c_wilmot, I didn't reply yet to your other point about H1B job situation and how that is a parallel to the outsourcing of blue-collar jobs to other countries. These are two processes with the same dynamics- companies increasing profits by taking people from impoverished places with lower quality of life and using them to replace labor in places where people have become fat, dumb, happy, and entitled.

I agree you have a solid point. I honestly don't have a clear response... on the one hand, I think it would be a more just and fair world to give everyone a level merit-based playing field. The most obvious and immediate impact of that would be bringing the USA workers down to the level of less fortunate workers in other places.

In the bigger picture, this points to the fundamental failure of the notion of "countries" in our modern world. Or maybe more precisely, it highlights how individual nations exercising sovereignty over worker-rights rules facilitates the divide between rich and poor in every country. If we want to stand on a moral high ground of human rights and baseline entitlements, it needs to be on a global rather than a national basis. As long as we have strong national governments that protect national interests, there are going to be winner and loser countries, and companies will exist to exploit the discrepancies between worker conditions in different countries.

It is a daunting problem to solve because of global cultural differences and managing population growth vs local resource availability, access to medicine, etc. But nation-specific battles for worker rights are doomed to fail if the global human condition is not addressed.


In hindsight I think I was wrong to stand against TPP. It's sort of like healthcare- the end goal is so complicated to reach because of the different stakeholders, that locking in any progress toward that ideal objective is a big strategic win, and it can be built upon over time. I think Obamacare was a good thing because of this, even with the poisoned addition of maintaining private insurance middle-men. I rejected the TPP because it provided a mechanism for companies to legally stand in the way of environmental protections, but in the bigger picture, maybe it was a compromise worthwhile to lock in a set of worker rights conditions and to help create a more level playing field around the world that could be slowly tightened over time like a boa constrictor squeezing out economic and environmental exploitation.

So at least two things I disagree with Bernie Sanders about- raising minimum wage with our present set of global circumstances, and blocking TPP. In a way our politicians face the same problem that publicly traded companies do- they are held accountable for short-term results rather than making hard strategic decisions that help us in the long run. In the end, it is the fault of the voting public for not seeing the bigger longer term picture. But then again, maybe that is my rich white boy perspective that I can afford to have because I'm not worried about paying the rent next month or keeping my utilities from getting disconnected.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
OK gang, here is a scary one on the crime and domestic terrorism front:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/dhs-chief-kelly-don-stop-homegrown-terrorists-article-1.3091534

To me, it is a sign of a bad political appointment when the person publicly whines that they can't do the job after they have started it. This reflects poorly on Trump, on his limited political capital and leadership skills to attract qualified people to fill the posts in his administration.

As for the DHS Chief, it shows a grave lack of public leadership. I would expect him to be humble and honest about what he doesn't know and work in private through different agencies to form relationships, solicit ideas, and develop a plan. But to just publicly come out and say "hey we're clueless" is like throwing lighter fuel on the fire. This just scares the American public and emboldens criminals who are planning attacks. Just plain stupid and immature and clearly in a position that he is not up to the task of performing.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 23, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
So at least two things I disagree with Bernie Sanders about- raising minimum wage with our present set of global circumstances, and blocking TPP.

Another BIG issue with TPP and similar treaties, is the effect that such things have on global stability and anti-war tendencies.

It's a big deal to come into armed conflict with your trading partners. Generally, bad for business.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 24, 2017 - 09:31am PT
Raising the Minimum wage is what's called a Jobs Program

Once people have more money in their pockets, they buy more goods locally,
this creates demand, and demand creates jobs
This has been proven over and over, just look at the research on it

Giving the rich more tax cuts is a Jobs Killer Program
The rich don't spend enough money to create demand, the Country's tax revenue goes down, the Gov. has to shut down programs for the people, people lose jobs and a recession ensues

Rich People do not create jobs
Businesses create jobs only when demand is increased

Another mostly forgotten fact
Historically, the wages are always higher when taxes are high
Wages go down as taxes go down.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Apr 24, 2017 - 10:37am PT
Hey NutAgain, I saw that this weekend and agree but I don't think the cash cow in domestic can compare foreign 'defense'. I doubt he has even looked into based on that. That is how this new admin rolls, it isn't about services, protection etc., it is about profit and well, we know how good Trump is when it comes to that. Bankruptcies and little stuff like that comes to mind.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 24, 2017 - 10:52pm PT
OK gang, here is a scary one on the crime and domestic terrorism front:

I'm certainly not advocating this is the case, but there is another interpretation.

It could be that they DO have a clue, and are comprehensive and intensive in their technology and approach. But, they need the bad guys to become overconfident, and do sloppy things that they might not, if they thought they were confronting the NSA and CIA.

I know of situations where that was the case.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Apr 26, 2017 - 06:50am PT
Ho man,
The criminals in Congress are at it again. :(
The Republicans proposed health care plan good for the nation but not good enough for members of Congress.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/republicans-exempt-their-own-insurance-from-their-latest-health-care-proposal/ar-BBAnqI1?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Republican legislators want to keep popular Obamacare provisions for themselves and their staff.
House Republicans appear to have included a provision that exempts Members of Congress and their staff from their latest health care plan.
The new Republican amendment, introduced Tuesday night, would allow states to waive out of Obamacare’s ban on pre-existing conditions. This means that insurers could once again, under certain circumstances, charge sick people higher premiums than healthy people.
Republican legislators liked this policy well enough to offer it in a new amendment. They do not, however, seem to like it enough to have it apply to themselves and their staff. A spokesperson for Rep. Tom MacArthur (R-N.J.) who authored this amendment confirmed this was the case: members of Congress and their staff would get the guarantee of keeping this Obamacare regulations. Health law expert Tim Jost flagged me to this particular issue.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 3, 2017 - 12:04am PT
Woman arrested for laughing during Jeff Sessions' confirmation hearing heads to trial

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/5/2/1658198/-Woman-arrested-for-laughing-during-Jeff-Sessions-confirmation-hearing-heads-to-trial
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 3, 2017 - 12:05am PT
Another issue of false honor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_of_Blood_(monument);

The River of Blood monument marks a fictional site of the American Civil War, on a golf course owned by Donald Trump.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 3, 2017 - 09:28am PT
I understand the swell of silly repeatedly similar threads but this one and the page linked had some very sound insight

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2902854&tn=1620

Impeach, the idiot
indict, All the Guilty
Convict! All of Them of the treasonous activities,
Failure to up-hold the oath of office and the disregard for the Laws that govern disclosure.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
This wasn't on my radar...
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/331830-trump-to-ease-rules-on-church-political-activity-report

This change to allow religious institutions to more explicitly influence politics (beyond the realm of their present followers), so they can pay for the commercials that drum up popular outrage against our public schools, so more kids switch to the new charter religious schools. Finally, a way to shape impressionable minds and bolster membership without requiring their parents to show up.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 3, 2017 - 09:41pm PT
My Fresno friends: lets organize to end this?



An Ancient Bloodsport in Modern California
By MIKE MCPHATE


In cockfighting, roosters battle to the death. The fights, banned in California sine 1905, have occured mostly in the Central Valley and along the border with Mexico.

In cockfighting, roosters battle to the death. The fights, banned in California sine 1905, have occured mostly in the Central Valley and along the border with Mexico. Alexandre Meneghini/Reuters
Good morning.

In a secluded barn just west of Fresno, the evidence of killing was everywhere — a weight scale, a blood-spattered wall, a wooden fighting ring and dozens of mutilated, dead roosters.
When sheriff’s deputies arrived a couple weeks ago, roughly 100 people scattered, driving off or running through nearby fields.
The deputies arrested four men, charging them in connection with an illegal cockfighting ring.

Cockfighting, an ancient bloodsport, pits roosters against one another in gladiatorlike combat to the death. It’s been banned in California since 1905.

Yet many locations, concentrated heavily in the Central Valley, still raise roosters for fighting, said Eric Sakach, a senior law enforcement specialist for the Humane Society.

Since late last year, news reports have provided accounts of cockfighting operations in Corcoran, East Palo Alto, Santa Maria and Fontana.

The southern border area is another hot spot, in part because of its proximity to Mexico, where cockfighting is allowed. In 2007, the authorities in San Diego’s Otay Mesa, a community along the border, seized more than 5,000 roosters in what was called the country’s largest cockfighting raid.

California has been a destination for cockfighting because it usually regards participation as a misdemeanor, unlike neighboring states that impose felony charges, said Mr. Sakach.

The secretive events are advertised by word of mouth, with codes words sometimes assigned to gain entry. The rooster owners contribute to a purse that can grow to $15,000 or more.

Spectators drink beer and place side bets as the roosters peck and claw each other to the death, aided by blades affixed to their legs. Losers are tossed into a garbage can.

Californians enjoy a number of legal ways to gamble, casinos and horse tracks for example, that don’t involve the possibility of arrest. Why cockfighting?

Mr. Sakach attended cockfights as an undercover investigator. He suggested there was an “adrenaline rush” that came with breaking the law.
But the allure also speaks to a more primal instinct, he said.
“The gambling is a huge factor,” he said. “But the bottom line is the entertainment value of watching two animals slice or stab each other to death is a driver.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 11:47am PT
By Ezekiel Emanuel May 5 at 7:51 PM

Ezekiel Emanuel is chair of the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of Pennsylvania.

The Republicans’ health bill is an act of supreme hypocrisy and insensitivity to the experience of Americans. It will damage — not improve — the U.S. health system.





Obamacare was a failure because it passed with only Democratic votes — so charged Republicans. All through 2009, Democrats tried to get Republicans to engage in discussions about health-care reform. Remember the “Gang of Six” or the “Gang of Eight” that Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) ran to try to craft a bipartisan bill? After Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) voted for the bill in committee, she reversed herself under extreme Republican pressure. Now, given their own opportunity for a bipartisan health reform bill, Republicans passed a totally partisan bill, and they never even tried reaching out to Democrats to see if there could be consensus.



Democrats are giving insurance companies bailouts — so charged Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.). The Affordable Care Act contained risk corridors, which were a way to spread the risk across insurers when the exchanges just started and no one knew who would buy insurance. In 2014, Republicans voted to block funding for these risk corridors — a main reason that premiums on the exchanges went up so much in 2016 and 2017. Now, in their own bill, Republicans have included tens of billions of dollars for insurance companies. A bailout? No, Republicans re-labeled this a “stability fund.”


Republicans promised they would never allow insurance companies to discriminate against people with preexisting conditions. Well, so much for that. House Speaker Paul D. Ryan’s (R-Wis.) bill allows states to grant companies the ability to charge exorbitant fees to people with preexisting diseases. The Republican claim that no state will pass such bills is ridiculous. Why have the option then? More important, we know states have done much worse in the past. Remember Arizona denying bone-marrow transplants to patients with curable cancer on Medicaid? Who would have thought that could happen?

And those high-risk pools Republicans claim will protect people with preexisting conditions? They don’t work. Even with Rep. Fred Upton’s (R-Mich.) amendment offering an extra $8 billion to the stability fund, the pools would be totally underfunded. Just do the math. Insuring patients with serious illnesses will cost about $10,000 each (a conservative estimate), so Upton’s money covers fewer than 200,000 Americans. Not even a modest fig leaf.

Other Republican axioms: Obamacare is collapsing; the exchanges are dying; premiums are skyrocketing; and a third of counties have only one insurer. Let’s put aside that the Congressional Budget Office and Standard & Poor’s concluded that the exchanges are stable. Let’s put aside that Anthem just announced it is doing well in the exchanges. If they wobble, it is the Republicans’ doing.

A few fixes would enhance the exchanges’ functioning: 1) Enforce the mandate so more healthy Americans buy in the exchanges; 2) guarantee funding for subsidies to consumers so insurance companies can lower premiums; 3) fund the risk corridors and reinsurance payments; and 4) increase targeted advertising so more people know about the subsidies and the requirement to get insurance.

Republicans passed exactly one fix: The stability fund does provide some reinsurance help. But that’s the only thing their bill does to help fix the system. Republicans are undermining and not enforcing the mandate. Republicans decided not to appropriate money for subsidies. And Republicans have severely limited advertising.

This bill will make things worse. It will not improve the number of insured; estimates show that the bill will force tens of millions of Americans to lose coverage.

This bill will increase costs. Cutting essential benefits means people must pay for those uncovered services — whether that’s maternity care, mental-health care or dental care for children. With more uninsured people, hospitals will increase what they charge to cover the uncompensated care they give, driving up premiums. And there is no provision to reduce deductibles.

Most important, this bill has no serious cost control ideas in it. No change in how doctors and hospitals are paid to improve quality and lower costs. No measures to reduce drug prices. No attempts to lower Medicare costs through site-neutral payments — that is, paying the same price regardless of where a procedure is performed — or to prevent hospitals from buying up physician practices to increase their bargaining power and raise their costs.


Republicans promise cost control later, in future legislation. But any additional health-care legislation will require support from Democrats in the Senate. After this hyper-partisan bill, there is no chance a single Democrat will collaborate before the next election.

Desiring to do something, Republicans have only shown hypocrisy and callousness. As polls suggest, they won’t have to wait long to see the repercussions of their actions — only until 2018.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
Trump Spurns Congress as He Signals Medical Marijuana Fight
Bloomberg

by Toluse Olorunnipa




President Donald Trump signaled he may ignore a congressional ban on interfering with state medical marijuana laws, arguing in a lengthy statement that he isn’t legally bound by a series of limits lawmakers imposed on him.

Trump issued the “signing statement” Friday after he signed a measure funding the government for the remainder of the federal fiscal year, reprising a controversial tactic former presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama used while in office.

Trump also suggested he may ignore gender and racial preferences in some government programs as well as congressional requirements for advance notice before taking a range of foreign policy and military actions.

Attorney General Jeff Sessions has vowed to crack down on marijuana and has dismissed arguments for its medical use as “desperate.”

“I reject the idea that we’re going to be better placed if we have more marijuana,” Sessions said in a speech to law-enforcement officials in March. “It’s not a healthy substance, particularly for young people.”

Twenty-nine states and the District of Columbia, Guam and Puerto Rico now allow for medical marijuana use, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.

Trump argued in the statement that his constitutional prerogatives supersede the restrictions Congress placed on him as a condition for funding government operations.

Power Struggle

Steve Bell, a senior adviser at the Bipartisan Policy Center in Washington, said Trump’s signing statement signaled a desire to usurp power from the legislative branch.

“It is the constitutional prerogative of the Congress to spend money and to put limitations on spending,” Bell, a former staff director of the Senate Budget Committee and an aide to former Republican Senator Pete Domenici of New Mexico, said by phone. “This is an extremely broad assertion of executive branch power over the purse.”

In the signing statement, Trump singled out a provision in the spending bill that says funds cannot be used to block states from implementing medical marijuana laws.

“I will treat this provision consistently with my constitutional responsibility to take care that the laws be faithfully executed,” he said.

Making a Statement

Obama also occasionally released signing statements objecting to congressional restrictions on his authority. The White House didn’t respond to requests for comment Friday on whether Trump plans to abide by the congressional restrictions.

Bell said Trump’s stance on the medical marijuana provision in the bill was at odds with the 10th Amendment, which protects states from federal overreach.

Tim Shaw, a senior policy analyst at the Bipartisan Policy Center, said that the president is bound by the language in the spending bill that now bears his signature.

“Part of the argument here in this signing statement is that he has the constitutional requirement to execute the law,” Shaw said in an interview. “But this is one of those laws, and Congress has the ultimate authority over funds getting spent.’’

jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 6, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
Colorado just passed a law that would immediately convert all aspects of the industry to "Medical Marijuana" should the feds begin enforcement against recreational use.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 6, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
I suppose Healthcare will be looming after Healthcare..... unless the presidency and all the carp that came with it is deemed illegitimate, and the clock reset to Monday, November 7th, 2016.

If you follow @LouiseMensch on Twitter, the shoe's, or at least the warrants, are about to drop. Her pinned tweet links to the blog I assume she writes, with headline: "At least six #FISA warrants granted in #TrumpRussia cases"

Though there's nothing to back it up....it should be noted that this woman has been the backbone of pretty much ALL the outing of the Trump/Russia shenanigans. And, she has been shown to be right.

Lets just hope they get that server out of Trump Tower before it burns to the ground in a terrible and unforeseen catastrophe.....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
During a “Fox & Friends” interview this morning, Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price said it’s only natural that people who are sicker and riskier have to pay more for health insurance -- that's "pricing for what an individual's health status is."
**
Price revealed Republican thinking. In a “free market” for health care, the older and sicker would be charged higher insurance premiums** because they’re more likely to cost more, and the younger and healthier would be charged less because they’re likely to cost less.

Which is why a civilized society doesn’t rely on the free market for determining the price of health insurance.

Ah, the reasoning why the good citizens of Colo will push to make older Americans with medical problems pay a lot more than others. Particularly those with back, knee, and ankle problems, because they are THEIR FAULT for pursuing a more active and riskier lifestyle.

when they finish with medicaid and the private insurance market, they will turn their eyes onto Medicare, where the REAL money is!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
Colorado just passed a law that would immediately convert all aspects of the industry to "Medical Marijuana" should the feds begin enforcement against recreational use.


Tsk, Tsk. It is not nice to go against the Federal Gov't that you voted in. That will make them mad, and get them to start withholding federal funds from such states.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2017 - 05:34pm PT
Even in Idaho, folks understand the fuking that the U.S. House of Representatives just gave us on healthcare.

Idaho's very conservative Raul Labrador keeps getting elected, despite his backgroun as a Latino Immigration law lawyer, since he is also LDS & very conservative. He works for the Koch brothers & other conservative big-money donors, not the people of Idaho.

However, he did a great job of placing his foot in his mouth during heated questioning at a community forum this week in Lewiston.

Rep. Raul Labrador (R-Idaho) came under fire Friday after he said that "nobody dies" from a lack of health care coverage at a town hall at Lewis-Clark State College in Lewiston, Idaho.

Labrador made the remarks the day after the House passed a Republican-sponsored health care bill that, if passed, would repeal and replace significant parts of Obamacare. The Congressman, a member of the conservative House Freedom Caucus, was replying to an audience member who was speaking on concerns about the bill's potential impact on Medicaid recipients.


"You are mandating people on Medicaid accept dying. You are making a mandate that will kill people," the audience member said, before Labrador interjected.

"No one wants anybody to die," Labrador said. "You know, that line is so indefensible. Nobody dies because they don't have access to health care."

His comments prompted an immediate outcry from audience members, who began to audibly boo, according to clips shared on social media.

The quote & the video went "viral" on the internet, but as we all know, being stupid doesn't mean you can't be "one of the best U.S. Congressmen, that money can buy!"
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 6, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
Tsk, Tsk. It is not nice to go against the Federal Gov't that you voted in


You are soooo unobservant, Ken. Colorado held its nose and voted for HRC.


She'll be baaack . . .
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 6, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
unobservant and racist to boot...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
Here is how Trump/co loots the country:


In a Beijing ballroom, Kushner’s sister flogs a $500,000 ‘investor visa’ to the wealthy Chinese

Chinese citizens were urged to invest in a New Jersey real estate project for a chance to immigrate to the United States. But President Trump’s vow to crack down on immigration, as well as criticism from members of Congress, has led to questions about the future of a program known in China as the “golden visa.”

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 06:53pm PT
You are soooo unobservant, Ken. Colorado held its nose and voted for HRC.

I wasn't referring to the State, but the slime-dwelling citizens who voted for the guy who is going to massively screw them.

You wonder how those people are going to be treated by the "average citizen"

Oh, they can shovel coal.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
Re Idaho Rep. Raul Labrador's stupid & evil statement:

Nobody dies because they don't have access to health care


A 2009 study published by the American Journal of Public Health before Obamacare became law said 45,000 people die annually from lack of health insurance.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gop-rep-nobody-dies-from-not-having-health-care/ar-BBAOBDw?li=BBnb7Kz&pfr=1



The "Evil Empire" of Trump Conservatives is now rolling back any rights to decent healthcare that Obamacare mandated. This is all good, if you are rich & want to avoid taxes to support the poor.

From FORBES MAGAZINE: (which most here might consider a: conservative right-wing, rich-folks magazine.)

Obamacare Repeal Results In Tax Cuts For The Rich; Tax Increases And Lost Insurance For The Rest

The biggest revenue raiser in Obamacare is the net investment income tax, which levies an additional 3.8% surtax on interest, dividend, rent, royalty and passive business income of high-income taxpayers; those earning more than $250,000 (if married, $200,000 if single). Thus, once again, the tax impacts only the wealthiest 2% of Americans.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonynitti/2016/12/15/obamacare-repeal-results-in-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-tax-increases-and-lost-insurance-for-the-rest/#512505884cdf
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 11:04pm PT
Guardian of UK.

Here's what the good citizen supporters of the GOP in Colo and elsewhere support for our country:



Texas adoption agencies could reject Jewish, Muslim, gay or single parents

Republican sponsors of bill set to be debated in state legislature next week say it supports the religious freedom of adoption agencies and foster care providers

I particularly like that an "agency" can worship a religion. I guess an agency is people, too.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 7, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
Woohoo! The Trump-clone/clown lost badly in France's presidential election.

Macron wins French presidency, to sighs of relief in Europe. With virtually all votes counted, Macron had topped 66 percent against just under 34 percent for Le Pen - a gap wider than the 20 or so percentage points that pre-election surveys had suggested


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-idUSKBN183003


Wooohooo Frogs!
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 7, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
I wasn't referring to the State, but the slime-dwelling citizens who voted for the guy . . .


Oh yeah, the Deplorables and their staunch comrades the Aryan Brotherhood and the KKK. Fear the Walking Dead.

Better run back to your yacht club, Commodore, and hunker down amongst your peers. Safety in numbers. Maybe you can ask HRC to speak at your annual regatta.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
May 7, 2017 - 10:23pm PT
If there's one thing about the US presidential election in 2020 that seems a safe bet, it's that for the first time since 1976 (!!), neither a Bush nor a Clinton will be a candidate. (2012 doesn't count.) Thank heavens!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 08:19am PT
EPA dismisses half of its scientific advisers on key board, citing ‘clean break’ with Obama administration

The move could significantly change the makeup of the 18-member Board of Scientific Counselors, which advises the EPA’s key scientific arm on whether the research it does has sufficient rigor and integrity.

"A spokesman for the E.P.A. administrator, Scott Pruitt, said he would consider replacing the academic scientists with representatives from industries whose pollution the agency is supposed to regulate, as part of the wide net it plans to cast."
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 08:19am PT
35 of 37 economists said Trump was wrong. The other two misread the question.

President Trump's administration says his tax cut will pay for itself. It turns out it's really hard to find an economist who agrees.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 8, 2017 - 08:20am PT
Credit: Craig Fry
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 08:30am PT
Oh yeah, the Deplorables and their staunch comrades the Aryan Brotherhood and the KKK. Fear the Walking Dead.

Oh, it's good that you know your brothers, the people you choose to associate with!


Better run back to your yacht club, Commodore, and hunker down amongst your peers. Safety in numbers. Maybe you can ask HRC to speak at your annual regatta.

Well, I can't run anymore, but I do like my fellow members of my co-op, designed to permit low cost sailing to the community. Rather than sit up in your mountains, you might come down sometime, and assist in the sailing programs that we run for disadvantaged youth. (in conjunction with the Sheriff---I know you celebrate everytime a cop is killed, but most of them are good people, you ought to try meeting some in a setting other than when you are stumbling drunk)
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 8, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
Paul Krugman States the Obvious Once Again: Republicans Are Lying

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/5/8/1660003/-Paul-Krugman-States-the-Obvious-Once-Again-Republicans-Are-Lying


There have been many bad laws in U.S. history. Some bills were poorly conceived; some were cruel and unjust; some were sold on false pretenses. Some were all of the above.

But has there ever been anything like Trumpcare, the health legislation Republicans rammed through the House last week? It’s a miserably designed law, full of unintended consequences. It’s a moral disaster, snatching health care from tens of millions mainly to give the very wealthy a near-trillion-dollar tax cut.

What really stands out, however, is the Orwell-level dishonesty of the whole effort. As far as I can tell, every word Republicans, from Trump on down, have said about their bill — about why they want to replace Obamacare, about what their replacement would do, and about how it would work — is a lie, including “a,” “and” and “the.”

The really important thing, however, is not just to realize that Republicans are breaking their promises, but to realize that they are doing so with intent. This isn’t one of those cases where people try to do what they said they would, but fall short in the execution. This is an act of deliberate betrayal: Everything about Trumpcare is specifically designed to do exactly the opposite of what Trump, Paul Ryan and other Republicans said it would.

Money is always available for tax cuts for those who need it the least. And then austerity for everyone else, because for some reason, we are in a budget crisis, apparently, after trillion dollar tax cuts, somehow we are now spending beyond our means!

So exploit the commons, exploit the earth, exploit the people, sell off the structures created by the sweat and blood of generations who bequeathed us thus... Until the wealthy can squeeze no more, no more out of the dead and no more out of the dying.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 8, 2017 - 01:53pm PT
If there's one thing about the US presidential election in 2020 that seems a safe bet, it's that for the first time since 1976 (!!), neither a Bush nor a Clinton will be a candidate. (2012 doesn't count.) Thank heavens!


Mighty.... don't bet on that. Those types don't go away....


jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 8, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
I know you celebrate everytime a cop is killed, but most of them are good people, you ought to try . . .


Boy, once again way off base, Ken. Most Deplorables strongly support law enforcement. There are liberal groups, however, like BLM, that may not be so supportive.

Good to hear of your humanitarian efforts regarding sailing. Sounds like a good cause.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
Boy, once again way off base, Ken. Most Deplorables strongly support law enforcement.

Yeah, like the Aryan Brotherhood and KKK that you cite?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
From Facebook:

Why that healthcare lifetime maximums cap thing is a big deal:

SHARING ENCOURAGED — NO NEED TO ASK


(Credit: Clint Anderson)

"I worked for a large health insurance company throughout the late '90s/early '00s at a time when PPO/HMO policies were our main products; nearly every plan I encountered had some type of clause for preexisting conditions, as well as annual and lifetime maximum payouts.

Most of my employment was spent in the call center dealing with claims and coverage inquiries. It was a pretty boring job, but not without its enjoyable moments — as well as some memories that have stuck with me since then.

One slow evening, shortly before the call center closed for the night (we were located in CST so would stay open later to accommodate our west-coast customers), my headset beeped and I was connected to a customer.
I ran through the standard scripted greeting and introduced myself.
"Umm, hi," a shaky and worried-sounding voice uttered on the other end. "I had questions about this 'maximum' that I guess we met?"
The caller was a manager at some kind of chain restaurant...married, several kids, all covered on a pretty decent PPO policy provided by the company.

I got some basic information to look up the specific letter we'd sent out. It was in regards to one of his children, his only daughter. She had some type of advanced cancer and had been treated for a duration of several years of her short life. I'd imagine that, even after we covered most of the charges at 80% (as long as you see one of our in-network providers!), the remaining 20% resulted in some pretty hefty bills for this working-class family.

Now we weren't paying anything, and Dad wanted to know why.

The lifetime maximum had been attained on that medical policy by that poor little girl. I informed him that we would not pay any more claims for his child due to this. He started sobbing. I fought back tears (at the time I was a new parent, my firstborn Ashlee probably only a few months old at this point).
T
hrough his own tears, he asked how we could do that to them, and how could they ever expect to take care of all the bills that would likely start piling up even more now. I desperately wanted to use my own words — "It's not f*#king fair. Your little girl doesn't deserve this. Nobody deserves this." But I followed protocol, read the policy language as he cried uncontrollably, and then offered to transfer him to a department that might have more specifics (don't you LOVE when we do that when you've already been on hold for an hour?).

He agreed to be transferred, so I put him on hold and contacted the appropriate specialist. I provided all the necessary info, and I was told, "Yeah, that maximum has been met, so we won't pay anything else, but they're not going to be able to insure her on any other policy ever again — hitting a lifetime max is also a red flag to other insurers. You can put the caller through and I'll go over this with him."

I didn't work in that industry for much longer after that day, but it was on that day that I decided I hated the health insurance industry.

I was elated when Obamacare did away with lifetime maximums.
And some of you are elated that they can now be brought back? F*#k you."
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
Losing protections for Net Neutrality is a looming disaster, and we still have time to give feedback to the FCC to influence their decision. You can think of Net Neutrality as a techno-geek version of "right to access multiple perspectives to find truth, and right to choose what services we want to buy." If these protections go away, it is like giving Verizon, AT&T, and Comcast the power to decide what TV we watch, what Internet sites we can visit, what stuff we can buy, where we can raise our voice, etc....

You might see a pattern here... the new head of the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) that regulates these big companies used to be a lawyer for one of them (Verizon). Fox guarding the hen house all over again.

We regulate access to water and electricity because modern citizens depend on access to these things to function. I think Internet access should be regulated in the same way because we can't effectively participate in modern American society if our access to Internet based information and services is blocked or restricted. Aside from the preservation of democracy and informed participation of the citizenry, it is also an important consumer protection if you just want to watch Netflix and not get dicked over by your Internet provider slowing it down and charging a ransom to Netflix (who will then raise your rates).

HOW TO GIVE YOUR FEEDBACK TO FCC

http://gofccyourself.com
--> express
--> comment

In your response, mention that you support Net Neutrality, and that ISPs need to be accountable under the rules of Title II from the Communications Act of 1934.



This guy does a great job of explaining why we should give a sh!t about Net Neutrality and what is going on right now... and he does it for a wide audience that needs jokes every few seconds so their heads don't explode or go into a coma:




More background on Title II verses what alternatives it beat out a few years ago which will probably be floated again as a "better" (read: "shittier") alternative:
https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/what-is-title-ii-net-neutrality-fcc/


Edit: I'm having problems with the FCC form right now... but here is what I am trying to submit in my comment:

Please do not dismantle the protections of Net Neutrality! We need the protections offered under the framework of Title II ("Common Carriers") of the Communications Act of 1934. This framework makes several references to "public interest" and specifically forbids discrimination or preference in content. Removing these protections in the Internet Service Provider industry would stifle competition across a wide range of industries outside of the ISP business. Verizon (as one example) has already explicitly told it's investors that the Net Neutrality regulation will NOT curb its infrastructure investments, so fear of stifling business for ISPs and reducing investments is not a reasonable justification . The only reason to dismantle Net Neutrality is to increase the profits for Verizon and similar ISPs and access providers, because they would extort revenue streams from content providers that would in turn pass these charges on to the content consumers. "Self regulation" would be a joke- the "fox guarding the hen-house" solution when there is already a track record of the large companies abusing their position in the physical path of data to harm other businesses and their consumers. This benefit for a tiny few comes at the cost of hurting millions of consumers and all types of businesses that rely on equal access to content in every household in America. Further, it undermines our democracy, which depends on informed citizens having equal access to different sources of information.

We regulate access to water and electricity because they are essential services for a modern society to function, and it is not always practical to offer multiple parallel infrastructures to deliver these same essential services. Similarly, unfettered equal access to the Internet is an essential service for our modern society. Most people in America endure a monopoly where only one company provides a modern high speed Internet service. In some cases people have alternatives, but the alternatives are typically 10x slower access speeds, so the spirit of having choice of services is not met. We functionally suffer from monopolies, but we do not properly protect our citizenry from them! Reducing the legally enforceable Net Neutrality protections would be a slap in the face to consumers and citizens across America.
Norton

Social climber
May 8, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
Most Deplorables strongly support law enforcement. There are liberal groups, however, like BLM, that may not be so supportive.

perhaps true that the stereotype "deployable" (Trump voter) being mostly white, educationally ending at high school level, and generally working, if at all, in lower paying jobs, would support law enforcement?

but since you have chosen BLM as your comparison group as evidence of the opposite

as in BLM participants don't then support law enforcement, you sure about that?

what criteria, studies, polls, etc did you consult to arrive at this conclusion?

oh yeah, I forgot - first they are black people and proportionately there are more blacks charged with crimes and imprisoned than white people

so you conclude black people don't support law enforcement the way Trump voters do

if I did not hit upon your linear thought please tell me how it differs from above....

gee, maybe, just maybe, if you turn on the news every night and hear about another unarmed black person being killed by a white law officer, why you might just not feel as great about
"law and order" ENFORCEMENT as a Deployable would

you see because it is common knowledge to anyone who has the slightest interest in sociology that black people (BLM) are as concerned about crime and their safety as Trump voters are

continuing, equally non sensical is the contention that BLM is a "liberal" group

yes, if being liberal means having below the limiting conservative surface shallow intellect to understand that when one group of clearly discriminated against Americans stands together
and protests, not protesting of course then would be Trump voters ...?

like the similar former short lived grass roots, no national support of organization group that protested what they viewed as corporate injustice to the common citizens, Occupy Wall Street? damn those liberals for not being quiet

what did I get wrong, seriously? Sorry, it sometimes get me how the word "liberal" is used
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 8, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
Nut, what party is working to take away Net neutrality?
What party seems to always be promoting the exact opposite of what you think is good?

you need to work within the 2 party system (because that is all there is) to bring about change

focus on the core issue, who exactly is responsible for this mess

We need to vote them out
not get distracted by every new issue
as long as they are in power, they will vote for everything that we don't want
IMO, in a nutshell
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 9, 2017 - 07:41am PT
perhaps true that the stereotype "deployable" (Trump voter) being mostly white, educationally ending at high school level, and generally working, if at all, in lower paying jobs, would support law enforcement?

but since you have chosen BLM as your comparison group as evidence of the opposite

as in BLM participants don't then support law enforcement, you sure about that?

what criteria, studies, polls, etc did you consult to arrive at this conclusion?

oh yeah, I forgot - first they are black people and proportionately there are more blacks charged with crimes and imprisoned than white people

I was all, wtf Norton?!

Upon reflection I finally realized my issue... BLM. I was thinking the Bureau, lol.

I'm like, wtf???

I'll be quiet now.

DMT
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 9, 2017 - 10:44am PT
Note that I used the word "may", referring to the controversy about the BLM movement. Read the Wiki article. Even HRC got in trouble with them when she said "All lives matter." But you're probably correct about them not being liberal. There are probably factions that strongly support the police and factions that don't.


Net neutrality is a biggy.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
Dumb ass regressives
Dumb ass regressives
Credit: Craig Fry

Why aren't madman and cragmaster telling us how happy they are now that they longer have the tyranny of Obamacare holding them back.

They must be in pig heaven with all these new Trump EOs and freedoms to discriminate/hate.
Funny, you don't hear from them much now that they finally got what they wanted.

Maybe they can tell us why TrumpCare will be so much better?
because everyone else wishes ObamaCare would prevail and they can just fix it with cost controls.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 9, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
OK, people. I have been reading this thread for quite some time and I do have a serious question.

I will ask.


Is it the Federal Governments duty/responsibility to provide health care?


A simple yes or no answers will work.

You all can add in any sort of comments, but please a yes or no first.

I will start......

NO, it is not.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
Craig, I grasp your point. In the end, all power will aggregate into a 2 party (or at least 2 main coalitions of parties) system because budget votes have to be yes or no for a package of stuff, no a la carte choosing.

But focusing on the parties rather than the issues leads to a stale mate, because the emotions of people's identity ("I am a donkey" / "I am an elephant") usurps their logical and rational facilities. We can't use a logical/rational appeal to change people's identity.

When you keep making it about Republicans, you reinforce the Us/Them divide which the most rich and power people in America depend on. The truth is that most people, whether they label themselves as Republican or Democrat, have a lot in common in terms of what they need to survive and thrive in our country. Our challenge is to "deconstruct" the identity of Democrat/Liberal and Republican/Conservative and focus on what most people really need and want, and why.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 02:41pm PT
Guyman, I believe YES healthcare is a duty of the federal government.

Without baseline healthcare, we have more and more people with no medical treatment, spreading diseases, living on the street, and committing crimes to get money to pay for medical treatments, and becoming part of the criminal class instead of contributing gainfully to the tax base of our country. Baseline healthcare makes the world you have to inhabit more desirable to interact with, and at a lower cost than the alternative if you have to pay for the full cost of your physical security in that dystopic world of privileged elites and masses of desperate people.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
Ken_M, the point about lifetime caps on insurance is a powerful one.

This is a really important part of the healthcare discussion. Without caps, then a small number of people can quickly exhaust the system. No matter what caps are put in place, there are going to be people with terrible stories of exceeding those caps and having money seem to be what causes their end of treatment and subsequent suffering/death. There should be a high level of transparency in stating what our society can sustain as a baseline level of coverage for everyone, and then we all accept that is the limit of what our society is capable of today. If people feel that is not enough for their personal situation, they are welcome to explore the market to get a premium level of coverage.

This situation will become more difficult over time, as medicine becomes more advanced, and the R&D and operations costs to produce medical treatments goes up.

This compromise in my mind is a balance between giving a baseline human right to everyone, and enabling an elevated privilege that can be purchased for people who have the means to do so.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
Until the Senate and House have to "eat what they cook" we will continue to get the same special interest tripe. They produce legislature for the masses that they don't have to personally live with. The lack of compassion and empathy is a sign of someone who has lost touch with their own humanity. This is why divisiveness is at an all time high.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
HealthCare is a Right, not a privilege.

If it's a privilege, then only the privileged can get healthcare

I have a question
How much is A Human Life Worth?

With our system, human life is worth only as much as you can afford
and our Insurance Companies make more money when they deny coverage.

So it all comes down to greed and the willingness to let people die to save money

Is America Not the richest and best Country on Earth?
Then why can't we have the best systems for healthcare, single payer

They Republicans cost me thousands of extra dollars a year because of their greed and lies about healthcare

who wouldn't want to pay less? Republicans getting their bribes


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
Our challenge is to "deconstruct" the identity of Democrat/Liberal and Republican/Conservative and focus on what most people really need and want, and why.

The two sides are different, make no mistake
we are wired different
We can't change the minds of the other side with any reason or logic
The only thing we can change is our votes

So if you vote, you can vote for their side and get what we got
Or you can vote them all out and have a progressive country with single payer, funded science and education, clean air and water, and no National debt.

To say we can't divide up our population is crazy talk
It's already divided up, the liars and the truthers

Sorry, you are way off with your lets' all get along theory, it has never worked and it just gives evil a chance to spread it's wings

Would you call the opposition to Hitler; the other side of the same coin?
Hell no

Name one good thing that the Republicans stand for?
Just one

If they are bad in every single aspect of Governing, then why shouldn't we work as hard as possible to vote in the opposition that are for the things we think are good.

They lie about what liberals are and what the Democrats are all about, they lie like Hitler did about the jews, they lie about everything,
If you cause a division by lying about the other side, then you are delving into pure evil for political purposes

If Hillary or Bernie won in 2016 with a full Democratic House and 60 Vote Senate, would not things be a lot different Now?
It will never be perfect, but it will sure be a lot better than any Republican race to the bottom admin like we have now.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 9, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
How much is A Human Life Worth?

I dunno, how much?

DMT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
That's the question that Republicans have to figure out, then dole out only that much in healthcare

and then they can keep the extra cash you paid in
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 9, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
With all due respect its a question we all have to deal with at some point, for ourselves our loved ones our enemies :)

In a democracy we can't just pound the table and demand coverage.

So it seems to me, regardless of who is in charge and writing the policy, at the end of the day, the question remains.

Or do I have it wrong? Not being confrontational, just asking.

Cheers
DMT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 03:27pm PT
I can't name the value of a human life

And of course we can't just dump money into a life to keep it alive endlessly

The answer would be to make healthcare a socialist tax that we all pitch into, and someone would have to man the death panels (not a Republican!)when the cost goes to high with excessive procedures.

All the other First World Countries figured out a way to keep cost down, we could copy the best policies.
c wilmot

climber
May 9, 2017 - 03:54pm PT
i believe the nps valued my life at $250,000. That was the amount I agreed to allocate to whomever in the event of a workplace death. Pretty cheap


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 9, 2017 - 03:55pm PT
Crag Fry and Nut.... so you think its a RIGHT do I have this correctly?

Let me ask this, question.

Should food be provided by the government?

serious Q

I am truly curious as to what extent the Government owes US stuff.

I mean they take enuf in Taxes, we should get something tangible in return.

And Stahl Bros has a great point.... they pass laws (government)but exempt themselves from living like they want us to do.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 9, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
If there has been a coup, the insurance issue is moot.

Those who seem to know, suggest that Trump has consolidated power and we.are.f*#ked.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
Craig, you are preaching to the choir for folks who already identify as Democrat, and you are alienating everyone else. You are pinning all your hopes for societal change on the increasing voter turnout among people who already identify as Democrat.

I don't think people who are registered Republicans are evil. I do think that the leadership of that party has been hijacked by extremists that peddle fear and hate and focus on the enemy's problems rather than their own solutions, and the dilemma is how people who are deeply tied to Republican identity wrestle with those things.

We have common societal problems, and depending on how people understand those problems and what are the roots of those problems, it affects what solutions they think are best. Most of us are burdened by health issues of some sort, a desire for ourselves or our children to be better educated, and a desire to have more gainful employment. Even if these are met, we all desire community fellowship and safety. When these things are jeopardized, we feel the loss and seek ways to regain it.

In terms of how to regain these things: our country seems to be split along the following lines. On one side, people believe in the ideal of noble self-sufficiency (which is often an illusion because these folks don't recognize the ways in which they depend on others) and an insistence that other people should also be self-sufficient. On the other side, people believe there are circumstances when despite our best efforts and hard work and perseverance, sh!t can hit the fan and we need a community safety net. There are plenty of circumstances where people's own actions predictably lead to the problems they encounter, and these situations piss off the self-sufficiency folks to no end. But by lashing out against this situation, the self-sufficiency folks also damn the people who, but for the grace of god or random fate, could swap places with the self-sufficiency folks.


So I don't want to languish in Democrat and Republicanism. By focusing on issues, it gives space to imagine a world with different ideological borders. If we don't envision the world we want, we can't take steps to make it happen. I don't envision a world free of Republicans. I envision a world where people think about what is in their best interest, in the immediate future AND over the long term, for themselves and their children. That will increase the chances of having sensible policy decisions and elections.


I don't think it is feasible to change a Republican into a Democrat on a meaningful scale to shift elections. But I do think it is feasible to change societal values on specific issues. Look at how much change we have seen with racism, sexism, and LGBT rights in the last couple of generations. And throughout it all, we have had parties strongly divided. If anything the divisiveness is growing. Our hope lies in focusing on what matters to us, and not getting that tangled with legacy labels that will alienate half of the people who would potentially support it.

I just had an insight while writing this... "if you love something set it free." The more the Democrat party pulls issues into the campaign platform and touts them as Democratic ideals, the more it takes away the space for Republican folks to support those issues and makes it less likely that our society will benefit from whatever the Democrats are claiming ownership of. Democrats need to find a way to support issues without claiming ownership of the issues.

For the record, I am registered Democrat, but I used to be Green Party until I switched to vote for Bernie Sanders in the Dem primary.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
guyman, I do believe in giving food to people who are in need.

When I was a kid, we were poor and I was on a reduced rate lunch program: 10 cents per day. If I forgot my dime, I got bread and water. When I was in 5th grade, my house burned down and we lost everything (we were renting and had no insurance), and we had free breakfasts and lunches at school for a year or two after that.

I would say the government had a good return on investment for the cost of those meals... I have had years where I paid 6-figure tax bills. Every year for the last few decades I have averaged more than $50k in income taxes paid. And I don't resent it. Sure it won't work out so well for everyone, but you never know for whom it will.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 04:19pm PT

Should food be provided by the government?

serious Q

I am truly curious as to what extent the Government owes US stuff.

This is actually a test for ability to live non-institutionalized.

For the Gov't to take control of you, it must be demonstrated in court that you are "gravely disabled", which is defined as:

either

1. a danger to self
2. a danger to others
3. **unable to provide for yourself
-food**
-clothing
-shelter

In Ca, this is the regulation:

ARTICLE 1. Detention of Mentally Disordered Persons for Evaluation and Treatment [5150 - 5155] ( Heading of Article 1 amended by Stats. 1969, Ch. 1472. )

5150.
(a) When a person, as a result of a mental health disorder, is a danger to others, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled, a peace officer, professional person in charge of a facility designated by the county for evaluation and treatment, member of the attending staff, as defined by regulation, of a facility designated by the county for evaluation and treatment, designated members of a mobile crisis team, or professional person designated by the county may, upon probable cause, take, or cause to be taken, the person into custody for a period of up to 72 hours for assessment, evaluation, and crisis intervention, or placement for evaluation and treatment in a facility designated by the county for evaluation and treatment and approved by the State Department of Health Care Services.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 9, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
Great, thoughtful posts, Nut.

BAd
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
The more the Democrat party pulls issues into the campaign platform and touts them as Democratic ideals, the more it takes away the space for Republican folks to support those issues and makes it less likely that our society will benefit from whatever the Democrats are claiming ownership of. Democrats need to find a way to support issues without claiming ownership of the issues.

If Republicans can't accept reality and facts because they are Democrat issues, then there is no hope!

They have to come on board for their own morality

I really can't agree with your point.
It's big money against the People
We have to fight the few for the many.

It's all the right wing media that fosters this Right Wing mentality,
we have to try and get them off the propaganda band wagon, it has warped the minds of 40% of our population
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
I don't think people who are registered Republicans are evil. I do think that the leadership of that party has been hijacked by extremists that peddle fear and hate and focus on the enemy's problems rather than their own solutions, and the dilemma is how people who are deeply tied to Republican identity wrestle with those things.

I think this is insightful.

However, it is backed up by changes in education that make it more difficult for individuals to make independent assessments of validity. We laugh at the "alt-truth", but it is a very real thing.

I'm not sure what democrats can offer, other than an honest checklist of what they offer that is different than the GOP.

I used to think that the GOP embraced the concept of "personal moral values", at least in principle. However, the elevation of Trump, with all his very public failings demonstrates that has been lost. I cannot imagine such a man being elevated in the time of Reagan, Bush I, or Dole.

For a time, GOP leaders walked away from him, demonstrating considerable courage and concern for the country. However, all that moralizing dropped into the toilet, and was replaced by a hunger for winning. They really disappoint me.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 9, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
Dang, Trump fires Comey.

Says it's because he didn't prosecute Clinton even though he said he didn't care anymore.

But it's really to impede the Russian investigation.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2017 - 04:31pm PT
It is healthy to have multiple points of view, and work toward compromise that does the greatest good.

The current powers-that-be want divisiveness, because it makes us easier to control and manipulate. If we worked toward common ground we could take the country back.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 04:33pm PT
Comey gone. Expect Trump to put in someone who passes the loyalty test to him, not the country.


It'll be like J. Edgar all over, but with much stronger tools.

Just killed the guy who was investigating the White House.


Make America Great Again.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2017 - 04:35pm PT
Cover up has just ratcheted up. If I was Flynn, I would watch my back.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 04:36pm PT
Flynn will be indicted. Trump will pardon him before any prosecutorial deal can be made.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 9, 2017 - 05:18pm PT
If Trump says he fired Comey because he didn't prosecute Clinton, then logically he will be expecting the next FBI director to prosecute Clinton.

Trump doesn't have the guts to do this and will weasel out of this obvious hypocrisy.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 9, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
I am truly curious as to what extent the Government owes US stuff.

Well, guyman, the government is us. What do we owe ourselves?
dirtbag

climber
May 9, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
The number one policy issue is figuring wtf is up with trump and Russia. This whole damned government is under one giant, darkening sh#t storm cloud until this gets figured out. Don't count on Republican to do sh#t.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 9, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
If Trump says he fired Comey because he didn't prosecute Clinton

He said the OPPOSITE! The firing was because Comey "was too mean" to Clinton.

The bastard is a smug FCK. No WONDER he's been so god damned smug this entire god damned time. He knew. He knew. He KNEW. All along. And how many GOP are in on it? I guess we will find out.

The ONLY hope is that DT is so damned incompetent that he did this out of a delusional foxhole prayer that axing Comey would axe the investigation.

Comey testifies Thursday, I believe, in closed session. The moment of truth is soon upon us. Pray, and pray hard, that we are not in the workings of a coup.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
Happi, I doubt that Comey will testify on Thurs. I expect that "executive Privilege" will be exerted.

Outrageous, but Trump could probably shoot Comey in the head on 5th ave, and no one would care (he thinks)
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 9, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
WTF does the FBI have to do with healthcare?

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
What is the point of an investigation if the only people that know the facts say that can't speak because it's classified....

We need all the info from the investigations that is classified and not classified so we can evaluate it in respect to the Constitution.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:42pm PT
Chaz, What the heck does your reading comprehension have to do with your posting???


US national policy issues looming after healthcare?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 9, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
So we're done with healthcare now?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
Comrade Craig,

I don't agree. "methods and techniques, people and places" need to be protected. We disclose the agents we have in Russia who contributed to this, they are executed tomorrow. Fine if you want to decimate our intelligence-gathering on the ground, but we don't.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 9, 2017 - 05:46pm PT
WTF does the FBI have to do with healthcare?


It does.

Tomorrow, NotMy President Trump is meeting the Russian Foreign Minister at the White House.


Guess what - that has to do with health care too. The health care of the United States.

F*#K the Affordable Health Care Act right now. Jesus FKING hrist, already.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
Chaz, I didn't think so. Thinking that way creates a perfect methodology for distraction, of which Trump is a master.

Note that healthcare has been moved off the front page this afternoon.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:49pm PT
Happi, I think you meant the American Health Care Act.

I think the similarity to the Affordable Care Act (ObamaCare) is designed to inject confusion.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 9, 2017 - 06:05pm PT
Good question Gary....

And Nut thanks for a coherent reply.

We are the government....but it has been taken away from us my big $$$ interest.

The way I see it.... our government should protect us from all sorts of things.

Invasion
coup
somebody, messing up OUR environment or putting us in danger. Thats why we have laws about dumping your oil waste in the creek or why we have zoning laws so a dynamite factory can't open up in your neighborhood. The degree of this protection is up to debate, but somewhere along the line I bet we could ALL agree.

I do agree that the government should take care of the poor, to a degree.... nobody in our wealthy nation should be shafted. I don't wish to live in a hell hole with bodies dead on the street and starving people, we can do better than that. I think we can all agree on that to some extent.

But what do you do with people who are poor because they want to be?

I see people at the 7-11 drunk at 7am lying on the sidewalk, is this person my responsibility????? If yes, I want to capture that person and lock em up and dry them out... then dig in to try and cure the problem.

I see some 19 year old woman with her 4 children.... are those children my responsibility? If yes.... I want to take that woman and make sure the baby making stops, now, before I help the Kids have a life.

Tons of complex questions with even more complex answers. I think you must have core beliefs and thats why I asked Qs about is it the governments job to provide health care.

I don't think that that is the job of the government, but lets face it, the government is involved-- even more so after Obama care.

My solution.... the government stands as a watchdog over the insurance company's practices and contracts. If they are going to be an Insurance company they have responsibilities to all of US. One is to split up the pre-exting conditions costs among all the providers (much like auto insurance with drunk drivers- assigned risk is what I believe it is called)


And I think the government, the AMA and The FDA need to start churning out way more doctors than they now do... lets face it- being a doctor is the same as being a union member....a protected class, one way to keep the wages sky-hi is to limit the amount of Doctors practicing. I know that we turn away many many qualified people who could earn the tittle. More Doctors would bring the costs down.

I don't think that the government is a cost effective way of doing anything... they waste $$$$ like no sane person would but some things are best left to them...see the top of this rant.

anyway... time to go bouldering. C-ya

ONE EDIT... you people don't get it about Trump, he is not a republican.... you forget sooo quickly that they didn't want him at all... but a whole bunch of US voted for him and he got the right mix of support in the geographical places he need to win. and Hippygirl.... he is your president, get usta it.... or you could move on to a better place.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 06:38pm PT

And I think the government, the AMA and The FDA need to start churning out way more doctors than they now do... lets face it- being a doctor is the same as being a union member....a protected class, one way to keep the wages sky-hi is to limit the amount of Doctors practicing. I know that we turn away many many qualified people who could earn the tittle. More Doctors would bring the costs down.

This has been proven to be definitively untrue. The highest medical costs in the country are where the most concentration of doctors are. The most expensive hospital in the USA is UCLA, in a region that is wall-to-wall doctors.

However, you are right. This stuff is highly complex. For example, the AMA, to which 2/3 of the doctors of America do NOT belong, does often act as a trade organization. But they have nothing to do with the approval or planning of Medical Schools, other than making recommendations. You'll be taken aback that they totally support a huge expansion......which should (they think) lead to a big expansion of dues paying members. Similar thinking to traditional unions. The FDA has nothing to do with medical schools.
Norton

Social climber
May 9, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
^^^^^^^^

guman, why I think I agree with some of what you said above!



So we're done with healthcare now?

not so fast...we have to bring this thing to conclusion....we need the Republican Senate to
vote on their preferred version of the new all American "healthcare" law and send it back to
the Republican House and then to the Republican President to sign it

and i am hoping the Republicans pass into law their American Healthcare Act -TrumpCare

because as much as I personally do care a lot and hate to see tens of millions of my fellow Americans lose their healthcare, be denied healthcare because the Republican state they happen to live it votes to take the waiver and their pre existing condition gets them thrown off healthcare ----

I want to see this happen so those Americans who have amnesia will get
reminded of the ignorance, incompetence, screw you-I got mine, kind of government you get when Republicans are voted to be in charge

often times significant change only happens when those who ignorantly vote against their own self interests are confronted with the results of their vote, beat over the head and maybe change
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 9, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
We are the government....but it has been taken away from us my big $$$ interest.

That's called hitting the nail on the head. was always against public financing of elections, I didn't want my tax dollars going to support the campaign of someone I wasn't going to vote for. But I've changed my mind. It's the most important issue today.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
you people don't get it about Trump, he is not a republican.... you forget sooo quickly that they didn't want him at all... but a whole bunch of US voted for him and he got the right mix of support in the geographical places he need to win.

Trump IS a Republican. In fact, he is the leader of the Republican Party. I guess you don't get it. His Chief-of-Staff is the former head of the Republican Central Committee, someone thought to be a centrist, who NEVER stepped away from him. Enough Republicans swallowed hard, and threw away their principles to achieve a capture of the White House.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
That's called hitting the nail on the head. was always against public financing of elections, I didn't want my tax dollars going to support the campaign of someone I wasn't going to vote for. But I've changed my mind. It's the most important issue today.


I totally agree. What we end up paying in corruption FAR FAR exceeds any tax money that would go to elections.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 06:57pm PT
NPR:

FBI Director James Comey's Firing Resembles The Saturday Night Massacre




May 9, 20177:22 PM ET
Heard on All Things Considered


President Trump's firing of the FBI director is being compared to the Saturday Night Massacre, which was when President Richard Nixon dismissed independent special prosecutor Archibald Cox.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
NPR:

http://www.npr.org/2017/05/09/527680260/fbi-agents-association-president-reacts-to-james-comeys-firing

FBI Agents Association President Reacts To James Comey's Firing



NPR's Robert Siegel talks with Thomas O'Connor, president of the FBI Agents Association, about President Trump's surprise firing of FBI Director James Comey.

So now we get to see how GOP scumbags ACTUALLY support the on-the-line law enforcement officers..........
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 9, 2017 - 07:06pm PT
I know a few neocons that are on Medi-cal , won't work , and strip a bolt when Obamacare gets mentioned...Apparently socialized medicine is okay as long as Democrats can't get it...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 9, 2017 - 07:08pm PT
Ken M... thanks for the news... King Donald is taking full advantage of the guillotine...
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 9, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
So now that the incompetent bastard has been fired he's not the Evil F*#k That Cost Hillary The Election anymore?

I'm sorry, that's laughable.

I'd of fired that sonofabitch the first day.

DMT
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 9, 2017 - 09:51pm PT
He's (Comey) probably a double agent anyway . . . they appear to be ubiquitous.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 9, 2017 - 09:53pm PT
I'm feeling all harpie tonight, so here goes:

Universal health care costs Canadians $ 219,000,000,000.00 presently through tax.

Present population of Canada = 36,626,083.

That divides into $ 5979.34 per year in tax spent on every individual.

Of course, most people go for many years without needing heath care due to being young and healthy. Most of the money contributed gets spent in the last years of anyone's life. My mom is 87 years old and worth every penny.

The Canadian dollar is presently trading at around 75 cents to 1 American dollar, so a 25% discount would equal $ 4484.51 per year in American dollars, hypothetically.

The present population of the USA is 326,474,013.

Multiplying $ 4484.51 by 326,474,013 equals $ 1,464,075,976,038.63

That's almost one and a half trillion dollars available for health care to be spent on the American commonwealth every year, through arranging a simple single pay system through tax contributions.

Without any pro rating, a family of 4 would pay $ 17,938.04 per year for unlimited heath care including no coverage caps and no exclusions for pre consisting conditions.

Personally, I think that the idea of the insurance industry excluding my fellow human from all of the life that they are entitled to, makes me want to take up some Jesus and flip over some tables full of commercial money.

Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 9, 2017 - 10:00pm PT
$5979.34 a pop is chump change . . . these niggas in Washington are just pasty gang bangers, preying on the sleeping populace of the bad ol' USA.
JC Marin

Trad climber
CA
May 9, 2017 - 10:08pm PT
How do you say "screwed" in Russian?

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 10, 2017 - 12:51am PT
$5979.34

Hell, that's the deductible here...
nah000

climber
no/w/here
May 10, 2017 - 04:04am PT
only new thing this whole comey firing exposes to me is what an unadulterated piece of trash cnn.com and i'm assuming, even though i don't have a cable subscription, their news network has become. their headlines and "news" articles regarding this story have been so replete with bald faced editorialization and regular lies that i'm starting to have sympathy for trump's "fake" news characterization.

only level headed analysis i've seen so far is krauthammer's on fox news... what is the world coming to that i have to say the last two lines?



because, for myself, there are two equally interesting aspects to this story:

1. everything trump and co said about comey is basically correct: disdain for comey is one of the few things that unites the right and left. for ex: what american agent of "justice" has ever gone to the press to basically try in the court of public opinion their reasons for not prosecuting someone [as comey did regarding clinton in july of last year]? as i said then and i'll say now: that should never have happened.

2. why in the fUck now? after all of the bull shIt that trump has spewed about having confidence in comey for the last few months... given comey's past why did this decision wait until now?



because no, the stated reasons were not as cnn.com blared for hours after this story broke: "because comey didn't prosecute clinton". and there was no excuse: cnn had access from moment one to the same documents that laid out the case that was being made, just as everyone else had.

however the timing certainly is curious... [ie. how many of you noticed that a couple hours after this story broke, that grand jury indictments in the flynn case were dropped?]



this firing is the best political rorschach test, i've seen in recent memory. for the time being, it tells us more about the audience than it does about the actors.

which is too bad, because there is meat to chew on in all directions.
dirtbag

climber
May 10, 2017 - 06:09am PT
So now that the incompetent bastard has been fired he's not the Evil F*#k That Cost Hillary The Election anymore?

I'm sorry, that's laughable.

I'd of fired that sonofabitch the first day.

DMT

There are many good reasons for firing Comey. Trump picked a bad one: the Russia investigation. This isn't a defense of Comey as much as it is outrage over an attempt to derail an investigation, and Trump's abuse of his power. And make no mistake, this is entirely about Russia, despite that lying son of a bitch Trump's spin on it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 08:33am PT
Now this is laughable
only level headed analysis i've seen so far is krauthammer's on fox news...

and you call CNN fake news
I think you just lost all creditability

but it makes sense for a Fox News buff
all other News is fake
monolith

climber
state of being
May 10, 2017 - 08:42am PT
how many of you noticed that a couple hours after this story broke, that grand jury indictments in the flynn case were dropped?]

Sheesh, there were no indictments. Wake up Nahooo.
Norton

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 08:46am PT
what an unadulterated piece of trash cnn.com and i'm assuming, even though i don't have a cable subscription

you don't have cable TV and so you can't watch CNN

explain how you would be able to assume CNN is a piece of "trash"?

what exactly are they wrong about to quality as trash?

include in your explanation your case for what "fake news" or "lies" they are putting forth

and then compare that to any other cable or broadcast TV news for degree of accuracy
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 10, 2017 - 09:04am PT
only level headed analysis i've seen so far is

Reuters and BBC. CNN is a sad joke.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:33am PT
WaPost:

So, just as Comey requests more money for the Trump probe, of the exact same person from Justice that recommended his firing to Trump, Trump fires him.

Comey sought more money for FBI’s Russia probe days before he was fired, officials say

James B. Comey made the request in a meeting last week with Rod J. Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, and Senate Intelligence Committee members were briefed on the request on Monday.

And our favorite Admin Spokes:

Kellyanne Conway: It’s ‘inappropriate’ to question timing of firing

I wonder if we are even allowed to THINK about the question of timing of firing? I guess they'll let us know.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:34am PT
how many of you noticed that a couple hours after this story broke, that grand jury indictments in the flynn case were dropped?

What indictments?

What Grand Jury?

This is a National Security matter. Everyone involved has to have top secret security clearances, which a Grand Jury does not have.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:39am PT
Of course, the democrats would have made sure the same thing happened.

Gotta make sure JGill's associates are treated well by the IRS

the IRS puts white-nationalist groups in the same category as orchestras, planetariums and zoos

The 2016 election saw white nationalists openly and widely champion President Trump, raising their profile in American politics and adding overtly racist voices that were not part of the national dialogue in recent elections.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:41am PT
What do they say? The winner writes the history?


All of Trump’s campaign statements just vanished from his website. So let’s remember them.


Whatever the reasons for their disappearance, the statements are all preserved in the Internet’s unofficial archives. Here are some of the more memorable statements.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:43am PT
With Comey’s dismissal, the Russia investigation will soon be run by Trump allies
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:03am PT
I truly, truly, hope this is accurate. So far, this person HAS proved to be accurate. So....
Form Pinned Tweet: https://twitter.com/TrueFactsStated

Claude Taylor‏ @TrueFactsStated 2h2 hours ago

There's 25 sealed indictments. Thanks to Comey and the Assistant United States Attorney. Waiting for them to be unsealed-it's when. Not if.

Did anyone see the clip on tv where Russia Prime Minister replies with unhidden sarcasm to question regarding Comey's firing, and Tillerson smirks, as they walk away with a dismissive hand gesture?


Gawd, I hope the sealed indictments are true. Otherwise, it is going to get bad and fast.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 10:07am PT
Sean Spicer says Sally Yates was a ‘strong supporter’ of Hillary Clinton. His evidence: Rumors.


Oh, really, Sean?


In 1989, she was hired as Assistant U.S. Attorney by Bob Barr for the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Northern District of Georgia

Hired by the most conservative man in Congress? Who led the Impeachment of Bill Clinton?

She rose to First Assistant U.S. Attorney in 2002 and to Acting U.S. Attorney in 2004.

Both times nominated by GW Bush

So a dedicated non-partisan profession, who had served administrations of both parties. Who said, in her questioning by Jeff Sessions for her last appointment:

On May 13, 2015, the United States Senate voted 84–12 (4 not voting) to confirm Yates as Deputy Attorney General of the United States, the second-highest-ranking position in the Justice Department;[12][13] during her confirmation hearing, when questioned by Senator Jeff Sessions if she would disobey a president's unlawful orders, she responded that she would have an obligation to follow the law and the Constitution, and to give an independent legal advice to the president

I thought the GOP was about following the law, and the Constitution? I guess not.

I would expect that we will see the oath of office of federal employees changed soon. They will be required to swear allegiance to the President, NOT to the Constitution.

"If dedicated government officials deem [Trump's] directives to be unlawful and unconstitutional, he will simply fire them as if government is a reality show."

The New York Times and others drew comparisons to U.S. President Richard Nixon's dismissal of special prosecutor Archibald Cox in the Saturday Night Massacre and "some cable networks"[34] began calling Yates's dismissal the "Monday Night Massacre".

Watergate investigative journalist Carl Bernstein, however, speaking on CNN, rejected the comparison.

"There's a big difference, because the Saturday Night Massacre was really about firing the attorney general when Nixon was the target of an investigation and was actively obstructing justice",


That would be more like firing, say, Comey.............
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 10:13am PT
Gawd, I hope the sealed indictments are true. Otherwise, it is going to get bad and fast.

Happi, I think this may be about Flynn's not complying with the law in acting as a paid agent of a foreign country in lobbying.

I don't believe it has anything to do with his potential collusion with the Russians in overturning our election. (or knowledge of it happening)

HOWEVER, it would be a POWERFUL tool in forcing his cooperation.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:23am PT
If you are drawing your conclusion from what you are getting in online versions of print media, your conclusions will be based on days old information.

Either we are getting massively played by worse than imagined, to keep the Resistance on simmer, or the Twittees I have bee posting(as above) have information coming directly from intelligence community.

According to these folks, the IC knows E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G on the Trump/Russia connection. If so - my new favorite hashtag is: #ThereWillBeHanging

Not that I wish for anyone to lose a father, or brother, or Uncle or Son. Especially when they lose them because they were traitors. But not only are these folks(if what is being told is true) traitors to their country; they have betrayed each and every single person in this country AND those who depend on us for support. Betrayed in a way SO MUCH WORSE that what Judas did to Jesus, for all those hiding behind their love for Jesus Christianity while they do NO do what Jesus would do.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 10, 2017 - 10:23am PT
......... with the Russians in overturning our election. (or knowledge of it happening)


Ken M .... you need to seek out some HELP with your delusions. Please for your family's sake.

but please keep it coming, I get belly laughs from your "statements".

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 10:32am PT
If you are drawing your conclusion from what you are getting in online versions of print media, your conclusions will be based on days old information.

It is worth noting the phenomenon known as "the fog of war", in which early reports on thing are often wrong.

Things reported on "legitimate media" generally have to go through a vetting process, with reporters having to present their evidence and their case to an experienced editor, who must approve the publication.

There is no such process in the "Twitterverse". In fact, that lack of vetting allows the publication of all sorts of outrageous lies, and I don't mean mistakes, I mean deliberate lies. (see: Trump, Donald)

I would far rather read something that has had some degree of vetting by a news organization, which stands behind their reporting and has a lot to lose if they are wrong---even if it causes the news item to be a little bit behind.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 10:35am PT
The Fake News people think this whole Russia thing is a farce
just like Climate Change and science

do they ever admit to being wrong after the facts are laid bare?
No, they will say they always believed "whatever" to save face

Hey Guy, the Russia thing will take down Trump, along with many others
Believe me now or believe me after all is said and done
maybe then you will get the help you need to sort fact from fiction

The Trump campaign Was In Collusion with Russia, Fact
Trump borrowed 100s of Millions of Dollars from Russia
Trump has Business deals worth 100s of millions in Russia, Indonesia and Saudi (where they kill Gays and keep women repressed)
Trump has been used as a Russian Patsy and can be blackmailed by Russia
Trump is doing a very poor job of covering up his guilt


Who else is complement?
Paul Ryan
Mitch McConnell
Jeff Sessions, forgot to mention he talked to the Russians on the campaign
Rex Tillerson, Putin's best Friend
Page Carter, Russian diplomat
Flynn, being paid by Russia to spy and leak National Secrets
And his campaign chairman, Mister Russia Paul Manafort


and they all are using private servers?????
Lock em up!!
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:41am PT
I do agree with your statement, and am pretty leary of accepting Twitterese at face value. However, the folks I have been following have been consistently shown to be ahead of main media by about three days. Media is ALL following these men, and woman, and then going in search of the multiple source conf so they can say it without risk of being ass-bitten.

I have been following @20Committee for about 5 months, and so far....ALL the stuff that has come out on MSM I read via his feed(his statements and more often RT's of a select other few) days earlier.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:46am PT
Just peaking in.

Lots of theories out there, but everything pertinent is classified...until it's leaked.

What we do know, about the Trump ties to Russian election interference, is that:
James Clapper stated there are no Russian ties.
Sally Yates stated there are no Russian ties.
Maxine Waters stated there are no Russian ties.

We also know that:
Hillary, as SOS, made a deal with Russia on uranium.
Podesta has stock in Russian gas company that would make more money if fracking in the US was limited.
Trump wants to increase fracking for natural gas.

Pass the popcorn, reality is better than "House of Cards".
Tchau
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 10:47am PT
James Clapper stated there are no Russian ties.
Sally Yates stated there are no Russian ties.
Maxine Waters stated there are no Russian ties.
100% WRONG
They said very clearly that the Trump campaign had ties with Russia
and that Russia is Still involved in some kind of espionage

Hillary, as SOS, made a deal with Russia on uranium.
Hillary did not make this deal, the Dept. of Energy and the State did.

so more WRONG

where did you get your fake News?
Fox or Rush

Is the Hillary campaign being investigated for ties to Russia?
NO
Why even bring it up?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2017 - 10:55am PT
I love how Team Trump is trying to sell this firing like it was the idea of the Deputy AG.

Does anyone, even Trump fans, believe this bullsh#t?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 11:16am PT
In 1925, Canon City, Colorado was the home to the KKK’s own amusement ...
In 1925, Canon City, Colorado was the home to the KKK’s own amusement park, nicknamed KKKLand.
Credit: Craig Fry
There are still many tribalists that cling to what they want to be true
Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 11:21am PT
Craig;
I should have said they were all quoted as saying there is no "evidence" of collusion between Russia and Trump.
Otherwise it's all true, not 100% wrong.

I'll withdraw the statement on Hillary
The Snopes article does have a tidbit
It is also true that large donations to the foundation from the chairman of Uranium One, Ian Telfer, at around the time of the Russian purchase of the company and while Hillary Clinton was secretary of state, were never disclosed to the public. The multimillion sums were channeled through a subsidiary of the Clinton Foundation, CGSCI, which did not reveal its individual donors.

Such awkward collisions between Bill’s fundraising activities and Hillary’s public service have raised concerns not just among those who might be dismissed as part of a vast right-wing conspiracy.

http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/

Wouldn't you say it at least looks pretty fishy?
Cheers
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 11:42am PT
I should have said they were all quoted as saying there is no "evidence" of collusion between Russia and Trump.

Hmmm...I think not. The evidence, if there is any, is still Classified, and therefore they CAN NOT CONFIRM OR DENY.

That is what is my understanding. From watching/hearing the clips where they were asked "the question," and their responses at that time. And from comments made by specialists in the filed of National Security and Intelligence.

We want to hear what we want to hear, and we watch news that supports what we want to hear, but we MUST remember that the news we are getting MAY be edited in a way to present a particular perspective.

I think that about the only thing we can all agree on is that we are indeed living in interesting times.

Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 11:44am PT
Well put Happy

Edit: Kind of what I said in my initial post. The pertinent info is classified
Edit 2:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/5/5/1659292/-No-Claude-Taylor-and-company-are-not-reputable-sources-on-Trump-Russia
Not sure what's true and what's not. I'll bow out now, I'm over my head ;-)
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 11:55am PT
But they did NOT say there were no ties, which is what your post infers.

And..... according to the sources I am watching, a Grand Jury has been impaneled in New York. Apparently directly said from MA Senator Markey.

I CAN"T sped the rest of my internet session wallowing in this muck, so just have to let it go.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
Happy,
I corrected my post.
They were all quoted as saying there is no evidence. 100% their own words.
I prefaced it all by saying the pertinent info is classified
Cheers
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 10, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
The stink will never wash off the Trump administration. Every day they look dirtier. Firing Comey now is an act of desperation. Pretty soon the GOP rats will start jumping the leaking SS Trumptanic.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 01:19pm PT
Politofact reports

Trump is also wrong that Clinton alone allowed the transfer.

The Kremlin’s 2010 purchase of a controlling stake in Uranium One had to be approved by the nine members of the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States.

That included Clinton as secretary of state, but also the secretaries of the Treasury (the chairman of the committee), Defense, Justice, Commerce, Energy and Homeland Security as well as the the heads of the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative and the Office of Science and Technology Policy. The deal also had to be okayed by the independent Nuclear Regulatory Commission as well as Utah’s nuclear regulator.
Hillary had no veto vote to stop the transfer

The payments to the Clinton Foundation could not have helped the deal in any way, and not a single cent went to the Clinton's from the foundation

so it sounds like pure conspiratory BS
like all your posts
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
James Clapper stated there are no Russian ties.
Sally Yates stated there are no Russian ties.
Maxine Waters stated there are no Russian ties.

They all said that the Trump Campaign had ties to Russia
That's why there is an investigation, they are looking into the TIES

Flynn, Manafort, Page, Tillerson, Kush are ALL TIES
They have Phone call records, records on meetings, and other classified evidence

They also said there is No (Not Classified) Evidence of Collusion with Russia that they have seen, Yet
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
Dear Mr. President,


I am formally requesting that you resign your presidency.

I list my reasons below.

1) The Office of Government Ethics has opined that “familial transfer of management authority” to your sons does not eliminate conflicts of interest under 18 U.S.C. § 208.

2) It appears that you are not actively engaged in any effort to eliminate your conflicts of interest. This is evidenced by the fact that soon after you took the oath of office, you doubled the cost of club membership dues at your Mar-a-Lago Club from $100,000 to $200,000.

3) It has become well known that the number, size and profile of events at your Mar-a-Lago Club have increased substantially. Given the frequency of your visits to the club, it is widely understood that members and their guests anticipate and expect the opportunity to see or interact with the president of the United States, if they are financially fortunate enough to be at the club.

4) Your so-called “Muslim Ban” (your words) has been deemed unlawful by the federal court system.

5) You have engaged in a so-called “war on the Mmedia” (your words), and have labeled several American institutions as “enemies of the people,” (your words) which undermines the legitimacy of freedom of the press under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.

6) During the House Intelligence Committee hearing March 20, the F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, announced that the agency is investigating whether members of your campaign colluded with Russia to influence the 2016 election. In fact, the implication is that your campaign was under criminal investigation during the campaign, and voters were not told.

7) Now, just 24 hours after a Senate hearing featuring testimony from Sally Yates and James Clapper, both of whom pointed to more evidence of your administration’s ties to Russia, you fired FBI Director James Comey who was leading an active investigation into those ties. The timing of this is suspect, and whatever your reasons, it resembles a cover up.

As a result, even if you were to address and remedy your conflicts of interest, your presidency will most likely be followed by a cloud of scandal and its legitimacy will be continually questioned. I strongly feel that for these reasons, you will not be able to effectively carry out the authority of your office and as such you should resign at once.

Sincerely,

Peter Brack
Citizen of the United States of America
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/a-formal-request-for-the-resignation-of-the-45th-president_us_59126ddae4b0e3bb894d5bb7
dirtbag

climber
May 10, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
This is a sobering factual recap of recent trump related events, leading to a troubling question: are we descending towards becoming a failed state?

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/10/is-america-a-failing-state-trump-fires-comey-fbi/
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 10, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
Things are going great.... the water in the swamp is going down.

come on.... 6 weeks ago Maxine was yelling for Comeys head on a stick, now him getting canned is the biggest crime EVER.

Failed state... hahahahahahahahaha what the F do you think we were under OBAMA? Winning?

get a clue fools

and CF no matter what you say... your 100% wrong and lying.

so there

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 10, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
Boy, oh, boy. You guys arguing about which group of corporate flunkies is less corrupt than that another group of corporate flunkies is quite amusing.
dirtbag

climber
May 10, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.

May 10, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
Things are going great.... the water in the swamp is going down.

As I've said many times, you cannot explain things to people who utter such nonsense. It's a hopeless task. Waste of time. Maybe they'll wake up, read a damned newspaper, learn something, but probably not. It's sad. You have to get people to the polls and defeat them.
Norton

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
wow

what a childish post, evidenced by a childish intellect

gonna graduate high school this year?

"so there" na na na na na
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 07:28pm PT
and CF no matter what you say... your 100% wrong and lying.

so there
what lie?

wrong about what?
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
May 10, 2017 - 08:08pm PT
#TinfoilHattedLiberalMeltdown
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
May 10, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
Hey Cosmic, you were always against socialism, but now you support a communist figurehead???

Anyway, my invitation to make the first winter ascend of the South Face of MPB is still valid. Your enormous experience in suffering for no a good reason will be invaluable.

Moose
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2017 - 08:53pm PT
"WHITE HOT" is how a friend of the President described Trump about Comey.

Do we need a president who gets "white hot" about anything at all?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
Failed state... hahahahahahahahaha what the F do you think we were under OBAMA? Winning?

You must have not looked at your stock portfolio over those 8 years, bro.

You must not have looked at the 60 continuous months of job growth---a total reversal of the previous year.

Yeah, we were winning.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 10, 2017 - 10:26pm PT
Trumps postponing the inevitable by firing Comey.. Trump's going down and so is the American Dream...
dirtbag

climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:35pm PT
Yeah...this won't end well.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 10, 2017 - 10:42pm PT
Trumps got his own little piece of heaven... cue up the Zappa guitar solo..
WBraun

climber
May 11, 2017 - 07:03am PT
So ....

The FBI is investigating Trump's administration for illegal ties to the Russian Mob (nothing to do with Putin) so Trump fires the head of the FBI.

This is the American Potus administration now, full of stoopid fascists run in the background by loons Bibi Netyahoo, Trumps son in law, absolute nutcases such as McCain and lindsey Graham.

They are sooo stoopid and criminal now it's beyond belief.

It's Americans fault, they do nothing about this except drool ......
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 07:30am PT
Brainwashed/Drooling Politards
Brainwashed/Drooling Politards
Credit: T Hocking
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 11, 2017 - 07:38am PT
Kislyak and his bitch.

Look at that winning smile after he fired Comey for investigating he and Kislyak.





Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 09:07am PT
Guyman
serious question

Were your parents Republicans?
What media do you follow?

You know that you are now in a group of only 36% that approve of Trump

The rest of us think he's the worst disaster EVER


and no one can deny that Trump does not have ties to Russia
just look at the picture above
that is a Tie to Russia, right there
monolith

climber
state of being
May 11, 2017 - 09:15am PT
Few around here will admit to be republicans. They say they are 'independents'.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 11, 2017 - 09:17am PT
The rest of us think he's the worst disaster EVER

Right, snowflake. I'm kinda partial to Kennedy and Johnson for Viet Nam although,
to be fair, both Bushies give 'em a run with their Iraq escapades.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 09:24am PT
Good for you Mr. Independent
or what I call a Republican

I really think it's time to change your avatar
It's really lame
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 11, 2017 - 09:31am PT
I really think it's time to change your avatar
It's really lame

There's no end to the things that get yer knickers bunched, is there?
Are pigeons sitting on gargouilles now politically incorrect? You must
be a real hoot to hang out with!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 11, 2017 - 09:38am PT
How is that 1 party democracy coming along, Craig ?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 09:52am PT
Not so good
Nothing worse than a Far Right Wing Republican One Rule America
The White Nationists are turning the screws on our freedoms

If we only had a true Democracy of the Majority, things would be a lot better IMO

I guess the rest of the world is worried as well
How long do you give the Trumpster Jimmy?

No knickers in a bunch, I just call lameness out when I see it
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 10:02am PT
Credit: Craig Fry
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 11, 2017 - 11:09am PT

Impeachment!
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
May 11, 2017 - 11:11am PT
monolith

climber
state of being
May 11, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
Trump to justice department: Write me up some reasons to fire Comey.

Trump to press: Justice recommends I fire Comey.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 11, 2017 - 12:22pm PT
#impeachthetraitor
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 11, 2017 - 12:52pm PT
warning rant following....


Crag F .... to answer your Questions about my parents, not that you have any right to know, or that they had any real impact on me....

My Mom is pretty a political (if thats a word - 6th grade made no impression on me caus there were better things to do - like chase women) Dad, is a died in the wool Republican, Airforce Colonel.... during Viet Nam (you might recall that little crisis for our country) who I would come dam close to having fistfights with at our dinner table back in 67-70.... That stopped when Dad came to the conclusion that the way the whole war was being run was UN-american and designed to waste our valuable brave troops.... and that was being run at that time by Nixon a true Republican.

So I did see that one can change a very deeply held beliefs when confronted with evidence that you can see taste and feel.

I , if you can recall was a hippy dippy climber, just like 95% of our generation was, esp the climbers. As I got older and our country went left to right to back left again I began to see the whole political scene as a sham-a lie- and a big con game to enrich some groups…. And it had nothing to do with “the right thing” as I see it, for the good of “the people”.

But I remained a registered Democrat and didn’t vote for Regan or for Bush …. I voted for President Obama by god! But then I began to see things differently, it seems like the only thing the Democrats wanted was more $$$ TAXES from things like the sugar tax on soft drinks, a extra extra TAX$$$ on fuel and on and on and on… always looking for more $$$ to spend controlling all of US and a totally failed “HEALTH CARE SYSTEM" called “Obama Care” that really cares for nobody. The republicans want to control us too…. Lots of laws to put people in jail for all sorts of stuff, except for those on the inside, they can steal you blind and the law looks the other way.

I only changed to Republican so I could vote for Donald Trump …. The Republicans worst nightmare.

Sooooo …. The way I see it 90% of the Government and its workers are corrupt a-holes who are also incompetent and the only thing they ever care about is who gets the credit, who gets to siphon off $$$$$$$$$ to their friends and causes and the people like me be dammed…. “you just get back to work and make sure you pay those taxes on time…. And next year we will be back for more, because we spent it all and really never got the job done…. “

So yea, I cheer on Donald, I support deporting illegal aliens… esp when they are let out of prison.
I think people should be responsible for the Kids they spawn and their healthcare needs, food, housing, everything.

Lots of screwed up stuff in the good old USA right now but with some swamp draining and some really good political fighting and bloodletting (not real blood mind you… we did that in the civil war) we might just get the parties re-focused – Right and Left – so when you vote for somebody you have a better chance of having them (the person elected) stand for something you believe in…..

I DO hope the Dems go hard left and the REPUBS go hard right in the next election… then we, the American Voters, can do what I think we really want to do and that is to go right down the center.

So please all you lefties who want the Government to try and fix everything, please run Warren or better yet Bernie next go round…

end
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 01:28pm PT
Nice rant Guy
thanks

what media do you follow?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2017 - 02:24pm PT
Guy, it seems that your problems are not so much with the ideology of the two most popular parties, but with the concept of government employees being corrupt and wasteful. It seems you perceive that the bigger the government and the more taxes collected, the more of this corruption and waste will occur.

I suppose that is true. But it is also true of corporations that would otherwise provide the services that the government could provide. I would rather pay the waste and corruption of the government, than the waste and corruption of a business along with the overhead of shareholder profits and bloated executive salaries.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 11, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
CF... Radio = KFI, KABC and ESPN
TV... not much but BBC World News tells a pretty straight story.
CNN, CNBC make me want to puke with their slanted take on everything and none of the TV funny men are funny at all.

If I read a newspaper...sometimes on Sunday morning, The Christian Science Monitor, the Valley News and the LA Weekly. My neighbor gets the CSM he lets me read his if I wish.

And Super Topo... I look at a lot of the links, some good some bad.


Nut... you sort of have it, but I trust corporations way more than I trust our government, heck I work for a corporation do you? Or do you pick up a government check?

Name me a corporation that has done more bad things in this world than OUR government.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 11, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
Mr Fry, please enlighten me as to how the Thought Police deem a pigeon on a gargouille lame, especially in comparison with yer stunningly imaginative avatar. I'm genuinely interested in seeing yer rationalizations and I'd really like to see you weasel out of denying that it bunched yer knickers. It caused you to comment on it so either yer knickers have, at the least, an annoying crease, or yer so magnanimous that you couldn't bear to see me belittling myself with bad graphics. That is unless, as I initially surmised, you perceive it as some affront to yer holier-than-thou sensibilities.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
It's lame because it doesn't look like it does when you look at it closeup

It looks like that silly monster from an old "Genesis" Video

That was easy
Next question
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 11, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
I would rather pay the waste and corruption of the government, than the waste and corruption of a business along with the overhead of shareholder profits and bloated executive salaries.

We don't get to decide like that. :)

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 11, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
Few around here will admit to be republicans.

I've registered gop since the 90s.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 11, 2017 - 03:02pm PT
guyman I like you. I couldn't care less how you vote. :) I don't really care how you think about politics either, in a personal sense. I'm not one of those "I really can't be friends with one of THOSE people" sorts. I know you're not either, nor are a lot of even the strongly partisan types on this board. Its just a few that demand others toe their lines instead of our own.

If we were to meet in person again it would not come up unless you broached it.

DMT
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
Same as it ever was...
Life as usual in the <br/>
Corporate States of America!
Life as usual in the
Corporate States of America!
Credit: T Hocking
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
Name me a corporation that has done more bad things in this world than OUR government.

As I recall a quote from my junior high history teacher, it motivates me to reevaluate my positions:

"Power Corrupts. Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely."

I was going to use this argument to rationalize that the USA government has done worse things than corporations only because more power is concentrated in that organization. But that begs the obvious solution to minimize corruption by minimizing power, by distributing it to many small entities (i.e. smaller federal government). That seems right mathematically, but it doesn't gel with my personal experience. Maybe it is true that the magnitude and sum of corruption in the entire system is less when power is distributed... but then again there seems to be less vetting and more obvious corruption at a local level. Maybe that is a bullsh!t rationalization or assumption on my part. Perhaps the difference is just that we can more easily wrap our minds around local corruption, and the scale/audacity/impact of national/internal corruption is so much that we don't really grasp it.

This puts an interesting twist on things for me... I can see the advantages of distributed systems as being more efficient than central control... but how to address these things in that context:
 pool risk across all people in the nation to minimize the per capita cost of healthcare while ensuring baseline coverage for all
 set national educational standards so that states with a high percentage of flat-earthers don't undermine the standards and put the kids from there at a disadvantage to kids from other states and the rest of the world
 set national investments in scientific, medical, energy research, awarding funds based on merit from applications across the country

This is striking some parallels to my work with distributed computer systems. It is not an "either/or" proposition of centralized or distributed. There is a way to make sure important parts of the system that are in the main line of the work are distributed, but you can still retain centralized policy control that instructs the distributed elements how to handle their functions.

But in terms of government, I suspect the distributed entities (cities/counties/states) won't follow the policy guidelines of the central entity (federal government) unless it controls the purse strings by collecting the funds directly from citizens and then distributing them to the smaller entities. This activity itself is a source of power that corrupts, and it requires an infrastructure of people to manage the definition of how much funds to collect and distribute, how to account for that, how to detect and respond when folks are cheating, and then all the people required for these core functions require an infrastructure of others who work in human resources, IT, and so on like a huge company... so there is your government bloat. You can't get away from it unless you make the government powerless except for military. And then you surrender uniform national standards to define baseline rights for children and people in general. And then what happens when states like Hawaii get too many people dependent on government support? Do they start kicking people out? Do they form their own army to fight with the states that don't want to receive the deadbeats?

I'm back to believing in big government, with a panel to review government efficiency and continually analyze whether tasks can be done more cost effectively without lowering quality, e.g. by outsourcing the functions to private sector contractors, or by eliminating the task as a function of the government. This sounds pretty close to what we have today- yet another group of folks that some would call more "bloat".
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 11, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
DMT your good people....

and so is Dr. F I know him from back in the day.

There is something about the internet that brings out bad manners in people, I know I have just exploded after reading some stuff. And the general lack of reading and writting skilz in some of us only adds to the problem.

I go climbing with Frummy all the time and we do 10-12 drives together...he is is a very left wing sort of person, his people settled in Petaluma way back and raised chickens.... I know you know the history of that place.

Anyway- face to face we have some heated discussions but remain calm and collected, he has his points and so do I. I don't think it would be possible to have the sort of talks we have while driving, hiking and climbing on the internet.

Frumy trying to look calm.
Frumy trying to look calm.
Credit: guyman


I hope I have not offended anybody with my point of view.



And to NUT.... what do you think about Janet Napolitano? She sure helps herself to the public treasury.

I think we were able to have almost free University education in California in the 60's and 70's is because the people who worked the university did so for just a average salary. A few years ago when UCSD needed a new chancellor because the old one retired I recall reading a story that the university went and hired a new one at almost twice the salary of the old one.... some spokesperson answered when asked why did they pay more.. "because we needed to to attract qualified people.." The way I see things in this world.... you go and promote some assistant chancellor and you offer the new person about 80% of what the old one made. That is how we do it in business. They do things differently in the government I guess.

going bouldering now

EDIT for nut.... the way our government was set up originally was limited power... the boundary set up by the founders works, but not if things get out of wack. ie: to much power in a president or a weak Senate things go to hell ..... and that's about where we are now.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 11, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
Blame Australia.

Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 11, 2017 - 07:30pm PT
^^^ Looks like Jody!

DMT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 08:12pm PT
Wa Post


Trump targets the Navy’s new aircraft catapult
President Trump set his sights on the Navy in a new interview, calling the service’s new electromagnetic catapult to launch planes off aircraft carriers “no good” and saying that the Navy needs to go back to “Goddamned steam,” the method used for decades. A Pentagon official said that Trump’s comments caught defense officials off-guard and are inaccurate.

Trump will "make the navy great" again!
monolith

climber
state of being
May 11, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
I've registered gop since the 90s.

That's cute, so does Norton.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 08:23pm PT
Right, snowflake. I'm kinda partial to Kennedy and Johnson for Viet Nam although,
to be fair, both Bushies give 'em a run with their Iraq escapades.

Wow, I thought Bush I was right in the first Gulf War, and conducted it well and appropriately.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
Wa Post

Homeland Security chief weighs changes to visa program that could hurt Kushner real estate company

In an early test of how the administration will handle matters that could carry significant financial consequences for the president’s extended family, Homeland Security Secretary John F. Kelly is considering changes that would make it difficult to attract foreign money to projects in prosperous areas.

So here we get to find out what the Trump family charges to give away US Citizenship.....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 08:29pm PT
Trump says he was thinking of ‘this Russia thing’ when he decided to fire Comey

Recounting his decision to dismiss the FBI director, the president told NBC News “I said to myself, I said, ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story, it’s an excuse by the Democrats.” His account flatly contradicts the White House’s initial version of events and undercuts denials by his aides that the move was influenced in any way by his growing fury with the ongoing Russia probe.


OOOOPS! Contradicts everything that has come out of the White House previously on this. Puts Sessions in trouble, because he was supposed to have recused himself on everything related to the Russia investigation---and he just recommended firing the Chief Investigator, and lied about why.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 11, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
Ken M,

Vancouver brought in a 15 % tax on real estate bought by foreigners. This was supposed to open the local real estate market fairly, to the local population.

The unintended result is rents haven't dropped, real estate property has become more exclusively expensive and the local building economy has decreased due to other municipalities looking good for development due to not having this luxury tax.

Mayor Gregor fancies himself a prole while squeezing oranges into juice and citizens into the pavement.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 10:44pm PT
Jim, not sure why addressed to me. These sorts of unintended things seem to happen with protectionist measures, instead of good things.

But I guess we're about to find that out.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 11, 2017 - 10:54pm PT
Ken,

Read again what your second post above mine says and think about how all politics are local.


Our current mayor is an owner of a fruit juice company branded "Happy Planet". He's also in lockstep with the local developers about creating a "livable city", as long as you have 1.5 million to buy into urban densification. (their pun, not mine)

Its not hard to connect the dots of agenda after that.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 12, 2017 - 07:20am PT
The stinking scrote sack is now threatening James Comey.

The tweet says Comey "better hope there are no tapes of our conversations."

Or what? Middle school president.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
May 12, 2017 - 07:24am PT

That's cute, so does Norton.

Thank you, you're pretty cute yourself ;)

I'm way more wishy washy than Norton. I hold no allegiance to any political party or perspective.

DMT
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2017 - 07:35am PT
DMT I hold no allegiance to any political party or perspective.

Yes, this is intelligent, only seek those with intelligence and not some stoopid clowns in a party like politards do .....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:08am PT
Trump reportedly sought a loyalty pledge from Comey

As I predicted a few days ago....demanding loyalty to the President, and not the Constitution or the USA.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:09am PT
Trump threatens to cancel White House press briefings because it is not possible to have ‘perfect accuracy’

Trump's comments come after his description of his decision to fire FBI Director James B. Comey flatly contradicted the accounts provided earlier by White House officials.

Ah, I guess we'll have to call Moscow to get updates.....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:14am PT
The tweet says Comey "better hope there are no tapes of our conversations."

Linda Tripp was a resident of Columbia, Maryland, at the time she made her surreptitious recordings of the conversations with Lewinsky, and 49 Democrats in the Maryland Legislature signed a letter to the state prosecutor demanding that Tripp be prosecuted under Maryland's wiretap law.

Before the trial, the state court ruled that because of the immunity agreements which the Independent Counsel's office entered into with Tripp, Lewinsky, and others, a substantial amount of the evidence which the prosecution intended to use was inadmissible.

Trump has no immunity agreements, so it makes you wonder if he has admitted to committing a crime?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:18am PT
Sessions directs prosecutors to seek toughest drug charges

Attorney General Jeff Sessions overturned the sweeping criminal charging policy of former attorney general Eric H. Holder Jr. and directed his federal prosecutors to charge defendants with the most serious, provable crimes carrying the most severe penalties.

The setup for the attack on MJ usage in the states where it is legal.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:37am PT
Hoover institution:

Every single American, and especially every single American veteran, and active duty member, should be incensed about the fact that Trump allowed Russian state media into the Oval Office while refusing American media the same courtesy. He even let the Russians bring personal cameras into the Oval, when it's forbidden for Americans to do so.

He is rubbing his collusion in the faces of us all, and laughing about it. Don't call yourself a patriot if you think this behavior is OK

Makes you wonder if the Good Citizens of Colo. are brushing up on their Russian, to be ready for the State-run jobs.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 12, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
If you all have any interest, and have not yet begun following Claude Taylor on Twitter, I strongly urge you to do so right.friggin.now
https://twitter.com/TrueFactsStated

Here are a few of his recent tweets as of now. I am quoting rather than putting images up, but you can easily see them for yourself.
1. From an IC source re: Steele Dossier. Putin put three people mentioned in the Dossier "in charge" of Trump. We have the names of two.

2. The first is Sergei Ivanof, mentioned throughout, who was head of the Russian Presidential Administration (PA) and reassigned in August.

3. The second one was with Trump in the Oval Office the other day(my emphasis): it's Sergey Lavrov, first mentioned in the Steele Dossier on page 28.

Do you know who the Deep State is? It's the professionals & patriots who are busy going about the business of ridding us of this menace.


Ppl have asked for my thoughts about Comey not testifying next week. First-do not worry about it. 2nd-He's picking his time/place to engage.


and current Pinned Tweet:
Everyone needs to be patient. You may not see it but the process that will end with Trump's resignation or impeachment has begun.



God bless these people pushing this information through, as it is not only giving the media the clues they simply would be UNABLE to see without these resources, but also from giving us hope when otherwise there would be despair and potential for violence.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 12, 2017 - 03:22pm PT
God bless these people pushing this information through, as it is not only giving the media the clues they simply would be UNABLE to see without these resources, but also from giving us hope when otherwise there would be despair and potential for violence.


Yes God bless ......

Hippy.... you should check out this link..... it will sort of balance you out.

https://aclj.org/

two sides to every story.....
locker

climber
May 12, 2017 - 03:30pm PT


"Hippy"???...


Where are your manners, FRANK???...


...





rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 12, 2017 - 03:35pm PT
Guy...Two sides to the story... ? Trump constantly changes his story.. Which one should the voters believe..? Trump has major credibility issues...Trump is proving that telling one lie leads to another..
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 12, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
Supporting the ideal of hope is not a bad place to start.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
My first reaction would be to discount what that guy says because of his position and role in shaping our modern world. That said, I have to agree with everything he says in that video.
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2017 - 05:03pm PT
Ultimately you Americans are still some of the stoopidest people on the planet.

It's really not Trump or Putin or Netanyahu or Kim wrong un or etc etc.

It's no other than your own stoopid selves.

You created this sh!t yourselves unbeknownst to your own selves.

You don't even have a clue why you're on this planet nor how you really got here nor even what your real purpose here is.

Just keep staring at stoopid rocks and blaming everything outside of yer own selves, clueless gross materialists .......

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/05/12/exclusive-isis-the-mob-and-trump-more-history-than-we-knew/
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 12, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
Yes Nut,

Like Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates, Dimon, as a young bastard, can only atone for his behavior by being a benevolent Patrician once he has the dosh and the wisdom that comes with age. Whoever says you will never attain enlightenment with a full belly, went to a different school.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 12, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
Jim B..... good video. I agree with a lot of what he says.


Locker.... sorry I wrote the wrong person. Hippy-- Happy- whatever they go together.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 13, 2017 - 10:56am PT
You don't even have a clue why you're on this planet nor how you really got here nor even what your real purpose here is.

I am here to love, and to be loved.

Is that wrong?

Locker.... sorry I wrote the wrong person. Hippy-- Happy- whatever they go together.

Guyman - When people use a misspelled version of your name, they do so as a way to mock you. It is a low quality offensive tactic. Not only did you do it the first time, but couldn't be bothered to stop yourself from making the play again when called on it.

I'd like to suggest that any link you provide for me to be "balanced out" is not worth the click, since you don't seem to have any desire to use respectfulness in your communication efforts. Save your patronizing bullshit for another debate.

edit:
One of those I am following says Senator Hatch(4th in line) is being given security briefings, to enable to him to transition into POTUS. I have no idea whether it's accurate, but the author of the post IS the one who actually broke the whole FISA story those few months ago.

https://patribotics.blog/2017/05/13/trumps-presidency-ended-may-9th-hatch-getting-security-briefings/
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
Trump’s expected choice for the leading USDA science job isn’t a trained scientist


Sam Clovis is a former economics professor and talk radio host in Iowa who served as one of the Trump campaign’s first policy advisers. He's also a doubter of climate change.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
Judge orders government to turn over documents from Rudy Giuliani on travel ban

Those suing over the matter hope the communications will bolster their claim that the ban was motivated by animus toward Muslims.

Now, Giuliani hits the hot seat. Rumor is that he was on the short list to head the FBI. Say goodbye.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 04:53pm PT
And which party wants to find a remedy?

The painful truth about America’s humiliating dental-health divide

High-end cosmetic dentistry is soaring, and better-off Americans spend billions each year just to make their teeth a few shades whiter. But many who work full time still can’t afford dental care, and millions rely on charity clinics and hospital emergency rooms to treat painful and neglected teeth.

Of course, the GOP response is: "that's their choice!"
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
Since when did patriotism turn into "F*#k you, I got mine"?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 13, 2017 - 05:03pm PT
Ken,

What do you expect when the current POTUS regards his reality TV success as the highest honour of a legitimate CV ?

The planet has 4 years of faux personal shock and outrage to look forward to in what passes for leader of the free world.

Maybe Trump should wear a wedding dress when confronting international policy. He can be an emotional spy while wearing a disguise.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/03/trump-asked-to-vet-sally-yatess-testimony-at-russia-hearing.html

The White House Asked for Veto Power Over Sally Yates’s Testimony at Russia Hearing

Earlier this month, the House Intelligence Committee invited Yates to share her account of those developments, in an open hearing on the Putin government’s alleged interference in the 2016 election. Such testimony might conceivably touch on why the Trump administration waited weeks after Yates’s warning to oust Flynn.

Yates accepted the committee’s invitation.

Then, the Trump administration informed her that she would need to clear her testimony with the president, according to documents obtained by the Washington Post.


Last Friday, Yates’s attorney reiterated her rejection of the DOJ’s analysis, and affirmed that she intended to testify at an open hearing scheduled for this Tuesday. By that point, Yates had also informed government officials that her testimony would probably contradict some statements made by the Trump administration.

That same day, House Intelligence Committee Chair Devin Nunes canceled Yates’s hearing.

On Tuesday, the White House denied that it had taken “any action to prevent Sally Yates from testifying.” Ostensibly, the White House does not consider warning Yates that her testimony would be illegal — absent the president’s consent — as such an action.

Regardless, the Trump administration appears to have discouraged Yates from testifying. Yates insisted on doing so, anyway. And then Nunes canceled the hearing where she was scheduled to speak.

When Nunes made that decision last week, his committee’s ranking Democrat accused him of trying to “choke off public info.”

The fact that Nunes appears to have canceled a hearing — that the White House wished to prevent — has further undermined the GOP lawmaker’s standing
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
May 14, 2017 - 09:13am PT
My predictions:

1. Trump will be "acquitted". (No evidence for collusion with Russia).

2. His approval rating will go up.

3. He will become a dictator.

4. There will be more inequality.

4. There will be a revolution, which may lead to a civil war.

Moosedoom
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 14, 2017 - 09:43am PT
In Arizona, teachers can now be hired with absolutely no training in how to teach

Gov. Doug Ducey described the new law as a positive change that will entice “great teachers” into the classroom and help alleviate the state’s persistent shortage of educators. One retired teacher is calling it the “Warm Body Law."
Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 14, 2017 - 10:09am PT
Pretty funny Maureen Dowd opinion piece
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/opinion/sunday/trump-sticks-a-fork-in-comey.html?smid=pl-share
I am really, really good looking. You look good, too. You’re a tall drink of water. Like a giraffe crossed with Eliot Ness. What are you, 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9? Central casting. But don’t let your head get too big. Don’t be a showboat. Don’t be a grandstander. That’s my shtick. Do you play golf? How far do you drive? Trump hits it strong and long — 285 yards. Have some salad. We got you creamy vinaigrette. I always do Thousand Island.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 14, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
Claude Taylor and Louis Mensch both reporting there is a sealed endictment issued for Donald Trump, which is to be used to form the basis for his impeachment(he cannot be prosecuted for crimes while sitting as president).

Poor Donald. It must really feel awkward sitting in the White House and waiting, waiting waiting..... worse, though, for the workers in the place who have to interact with him.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 14, 2017 - 01:52pm PT
Schwarzenegger will fire Trump live on national TV saving Big Don from impeachment hearings and proving it's all rigged...Don will be declared a winner , proving again that Americans are stoopid...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 14, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
BREAKING NEWS!

Lord Cheeto is still a flaming assh0le.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 07:40am PT
Supreme Court will not consider reviving controversial North Carolina voter ID law

A lower court had said that state legislators acted “with almost surgical precision” in seeking to blunt the influence of African American voters. Last summer the Supreme Court had divided evenly on whether the law could be used in last fall’s election while the appeals continued.


What this means is that Gorsuch is not an automatic vote. This will shake Trump up.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 07:44am PT
Top lawmakers: If Trump has tapes, Congress needs access to them

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham and Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer were among leaders in both parties requesting that any recordings of White House conversations be turned over for review immediately. Sen. Mike Lee, a former federal prosecutor, said “it’s probably inevitable” that such tapes would be subpoenaed.


This is a YUUUUGE problem for Trump. He can't hide nor destroy the tapes, he'll have to turn them over. Supreme Court= 9-0 decision during Watergate.

The problem is, that tapes often capture a lot more than just what you're looking for. For example, it was Nixon's language that shocked and turned away many mid-western conservative supporters......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 07:55am PT
AND THE TRUMPIAN ANECDOTE OF THE DAY, WE-ARE-ALL-DOOMED EDITION: Shane Goldmacher brings us this doozy:

K.T. McFarland, the deputy national security adviser, [gave] Trump a printout of two Time magazine covers. One, supposedly from the 1970s, warned of a coming ice age; the other, from 2008, about surviving global warming, according to four White House officials familiar with the matter.

Trump quickly got lathered up about the media’s hypocrisy. But there was a problem. The 1970s cover was fake, part of an Internet hoax that’s circulated for years. Staff chased down the truth and intervened before Trump tweeted or talked publicly about it.

Good to see those White House staffers are on the case! But it would be nice if they would also consider trying to persuade Trump that climate change is real. A lot is riding on that, you know.
WBraun

climber
May 15, 2017 - 07:57am PT
How many čřáňklóóňš does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

You Americans are some f up idiots ......
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 15, 2017 - 09:15am PT
How many Trump staffers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Unknown: It hasn't been accomplished yet.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 10:10am PT
When The Carter Center began leading the international campaign to eradicate Guinea worm disease in 1986, there were an estimated 3.5 million cases in 21 countries in Africa and Asia. Today, that number has been reduced by more than 99.99 percent.

In 2016, 25* human cases of Guinea worm disease were reported worldwide. These numbers are *provisional until certified.

Jan. 1 – March 31, 2017
Worldwide Total:
3*

yep, no difference between the people in the two parties. Looking for similar things from the Reagan, Bush, Bush or Trump entities....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 15, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
I would rather pay the waste and corruption of the government, than the waste and corruption of a business along with the overhead of shareholder profits and bloated executive salaries.

Nobody likes bureaucracies. Having worked for both corporate and government bureaucracies, IMO, the difference is that government bureaucracy is basically benign while the corporate bureaucracy is actively out to f*#k you over.

Trump is now brilliantly combining the worst of both worlds. God save the Republic.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian diplomats

The president’s disclosures to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in their Oval Office meeting last week jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State

— an information-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, current and former U.S. officials said.

Trump appeared to be boasting of the “great intel” he receives when he described a looming terror threat, according to an official with knowledge of the exchange. As president, Trump has broad authority to declassify government secrets, making it unlikely that his disclosures broke the law.

Front Page Washington Post
drF

Trad climber
usa
May 15, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
All anonymous source BS from 'Dr'Krankl00n Ken. Zero proof as usual. Besides, it's all over the 'newz'. Why post this garbage? At the very least, cite your BS posts.

Fawk man....let this thread die. Get a life!!!

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 15, 2017 - 07:54pm PT

IMPEACHMENT!!!!!
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
May 15, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
I hope we're not witnessing the dismantling of our democracy. It could happen if the majority in power, the republicans, don't wake up to see that their careers are in a 'downward spiral' just like that of their unhinged president.

Look for the rats to begin jumping ship en masse very soon.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 08:55pm PT



https://onthepublicrecord.org/2017/05/15/trump-wrecked-nunes/



trump wrecked nunes

Less than a year ago, Westlands and the ag boys of California water had themselves a perfectly good Congressman.

Nunes was able and willing to carry whatever legislation they could develop to advance their water preferences. But then Nunes found an even bigger authoritarian he could toady for, and Westlands lost their whole investment in Nunes.

Nunes was well-trained and well-placed; he could have done them a lot of good if Trump hadn’t turned his head.

Now poor Nunes is embarrassed, under investigation and won’t talk to the Fresno Bee.

If I were a big ag donor in the San Joaquin Valley, I’d be mad at Nunes for leaving his lane and floundering about. Now they’re going to have to buy another one, train him up and install him. What a waste of their time and money.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
May 15, 2017 - 09:42pm PT
Speaking of healthcare,
Are you one of those A$$hole Drs., Ken, that charge $450 dollars for a 5 minute consult?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
May 15, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
Do underground bunkers in Yosemite even have light bulbs?
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 15, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
We Could Have Been Canada (New Yorker Magazine)


Go for it, guys.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 10:10pm PT
Just for the first visit, Cosmic. After that, it's $600/5 minutes.

But I've been retired for 10 years, so I don't get the fun of fleecing poor people anymore......

Seriously, I think my average office visit was about $50, and lasted 15-25 minutes, depending.

But, oh, you were just trying to insult me. Ah well.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
May 15, 2017 - 10:35pm PT
rats jumping ship you say?

exhibit a... from the "lady" who wrote a book titled in trump we trust [for those not familiar, a one, anne coulter]:

Yeah, I mean, my fingers are still crossed. It’s not like I’m out yet, but boy, things don’t look good. I’ve said to other people, it’s as if we’re in Chicago and Trump tells us he’s going to get us to LA in six days. But for the first three days we are driving towards New York. Yes, it is true he can still turn around and get us to LA in three days, but I’m a little nervous. ...

If we just keep going to New York. Well again, I’ll say we had no choice, but the Trump-haters were right…It’s a nightmare. I can’t even contemplate that. Right now I’m still rooting for him to turn around and take us toward LA. ...

I’ll let him speak for himself, but I think all of the Trump true believers are petrified.



exhibit b... from the republican senate foreign relations committee chairman [a one, bob corker]:

The White House has got to do something soon to bring itself under control and in order, It's got to happen. Obviously they're in a downward spiral right now and they've got to figure out a way to come to grips [with] all that's happening.



exhibit c... a republican arizona senator, a one, jeff [the aptly named] flake:

I've spent the last several hours trying to find an acceptable rationale for the timing of Comey's firing. I just can't do it.



while it certainly isn't all of the rats just yet, there are some significant ones with one leg off the ship, just in case...



about four months ago i said, i'd bet trump would be gone [assassinated, resigned or impeached] by, i think it was, july of 2018...

at the rate trump's penchant for making enemies and leaving a trail of smoke and fire for said enemies to string him up with, is currently developing...

i'll be shocked if he is still in power at the end of this summer.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 15, 2017 - 11:08pm PT
James Comey painted a bull's eye on himself as a useful idiot, the moment he called into question the Democratic Party's nominee for president, 10 days before an American Presidential election.

Anyone thinking he did this from the goodness of his heart, based on fair play and may the best contestant win, should pull their head out of their political ass.

It was obvious what Comey was doing.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 07:43am PT
All anonymous source BS from 'Dr'Krankl00n Ken. Zero proof as usual. Besides, it's all over the 'newz'. Why post this garbage? At the very least, cite your BS posts.

Fawk man....let this thread die. Get a life!!!

Gee....I wouldn't call DONALD TRUMP anonymous....

Trump acknowledges ‘facts’ were shared with Russian envoys

Trump's tweets undercut his administration's frantic effort Monday night to contain the damaging report. The White House trotted out three senior administration officials to deny the very reports Trump openly confirmed less than 24 hours later.
By Ashley Parker

all front page, WaPost

This is why Trump’s loose tongue has compromised U.S. security

According to the rules of the intelligence game, in order to share this particular piece of classified information, the United States would have needed permission from the country that collected it. This information was not America's to share.
By Stephen Tankel

“This is code-word information,” said a U.S. official familiar with the matter, using terminology that refers to one of the highest classification levels used by American spy agencies. Trump “revealed more information to the Russian ambassador than we have shared with our own allies.”***
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2017 - 07:56am PT
Ken loves his daily brainwashing from the Washington Post and continually rehashing it here.

They tell him exactly how to think.

He believes all their daily bullsh!t without ever doing any serious deep research.

Nope no research at all, god knows how he even ever diagnosed his patients using such a formula.

Do not respond to this post you'll only further waste your time .....

How many čřáňklóóňš does it even take to screw in a lightbulb?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 08:39am PT
Foreign Leaders Have Realized Trump Is a Pushover

The president’s reported disclosure of classified information to Russia is only the latest example of the self-proclaimed great negotiator conceding to officials from overseas everything they want.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/trump-foreign-leaders-negotiate/526815/?utm_source=atlfb
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 08:42am PT
Why would anyone listen to an un-American non-American, spouting off about Americans, who he holds in total contempt?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 16, 2017 - 08:48am PT
And yer point is?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 09:04am PT
Is Werner even here legally?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 11:22am PT
http://www.dailynews.com/government-and-politics/20170516/trump-claims-absolute-right-to-share-info-with-russia

Trump claims ‘absolute right’ to share info with Russia


So he admits it. Undercut his staff, again.

The news reverberated around the world as countries started second-guessing their own intelligence-sharing agreements with the U.S.

A senior European intelligence official told the AP his country might stop sharing information with the United States if it confirms that Trump shared classified details with Russian officials. Such sharing “could be a risk for our sources,” the official said.

Trump later was informed that he had broken protocol and White House officials placed calls to the National Security Agency and the CIA looking to minimize any damage.

The U.S. official said that Trump boasted about his access to classified intelligence in last week’s meeting with Lavrov and Kislyak. An excerpt from an official transcript of the meeting reveals that Trump told them, “I get great intel. I have people brief me on great intel every day,” he said.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 16, 2017 - 11:28am PT
Ken M .... I think you are getting this all twisted around the axle.

WBraun

climber
May 16, 2017 - 11:33am PT
The U.S. official said

Typical Ken believes a non-identified source as usual.

Poor Ken.

Now he'll look for it?

LOL .....
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2017 - 11:34am PT
Ken M just appears to have a higher tolerance to continue caring in the midst of ongoing painful revelations, whereas most people are worn down and choose to ignore it or build a layer of personal insulation to not feel hurt by the various setbacks in the advancement of civilization.

Some people think they would be happy about being back in the good old days of true freedom, and what they don't realize, is that total freedom screws just about everybody except the strongest few.
locker

climber
May 16, 2017 - 11:34am PT

Ken M...

Keep up the good work on posting TRUTH and FACTS about our current, piece of crap, President...

Jeremy Ross

Gym climber
May 16, 2017 - 11:37am PT
Why would anyone listen to an un-American non-American, spouting off about Americans, who he holds in total contempt?

A different viewpoint is essential to understanding, imo.
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2017 - 11:42am PT
Ken M just appears to have a higher tolerance to continue caring in the midst of ongoing painful revelations

Yes, he cares.

But when your sources are full of sh!t then your cares become ultimately useless.

But most of you just plain toe the line of the clueless bullsh!t mainstream media ......
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2017 - 11:52am PT
Emoluments clause is a pretty big issue of government integrity, and our national policy clarity and enforcement of this issue should be front and center. It should be flat out illegal and a legal bar from holding office if any public office holder has financial interests not disclosed to the public. Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life, and lost his spot in the Hall of Fame, for similar transgressions (betting which is essentially a creation of a financial interest which may be at odds with the performance of one's duties), but this had no practical impact on the life of anyone. In the case of our politicians, the transgressions can potentially impact every single one of us in a long term way. Here is a pretty awesome public statement of protest.

monolith

climber
state of being
May 16, 2017 - 12:20pm PT
“I get great intel. I have people brief me on great intel every day”

That's hilarious, but mega sad,sad,sad. Now we find out Trump is sharing Israeli sourced intel with the Russians.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 16, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
And, apparently, he several times asked Comey to stop the investigation of Flynn's activities during the Trump campaign, which seems pretty clear obstruction of Justice.

Pretty much what Watergate was about, It took two years for Watergate to build to this level of frenzy.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 16, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
Meanwhile back on planet Weiner....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
In an earlier post, there was an assertion that we needed a lot more physicians, a position with which I took exception. Today, there was an opinion essay on the subject in Journal of the AMA (JAMA). It's behind a paywall, but some excerpts:


On the supply side, are there too few physicians? A simple calculation estimating the number of physicians needed to care for all US residents suggests no physician shortage.

The United States currently has more than 900 000 active physicians. Of these, 441 735 are primary care physicians and 484 384 are specialists. Approximately 12% of primary care physicians work part time, leaving slightly more than 388 000 full-time primary care physicians. Of these, nearly 80 000 are pediatricians.

According to recommendations from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, the average physician panel size—the number of unique patients under the care of an individual physician—should be between 1500 and 2000. A recent Medical Group Management Association survey of primary care physicians found that the median panel size was 1906 and the average was 2184.

Conservatively, if each of the 388 000 full-time primary care physicians cares for an average of 1500 patients, they could care for an estimated 583 million people. Today, there are 240 million adults in the United States.

Even at the low panel size of 1500 patients, all adults could be cared for by 160 000 primary care physicians; at a panel size of 2000 patients, the United States would require an estimated 120 000 full-time primary care physicians.

Similarly, the 73 million US children younger than 18 years could be cared for by an estimated 49 000 pediatricians, assuming that each provides care for 1500 patients, or by an estimated 36 500 pediatricians with panel sizes of 2000 patients. Add to these conservative calculations the care provided by the more than 50 000 part-time primary care physicians and there seems a significant surplus, rather than a shortage, of full-time primary care physicians.

Can Physicians Care for All Patients in the United States?

Another way of determining if there are enough physicians is to approach the issue from the demand side. Each year, there are 930 million US physician visits, 54.6% (507 million) of them to primary care physicians. If each primary care physician sees patients in 30-minute appointments for 6 hours a day (12 appointments per day) to ensure patients are thoroughly examined and visits are not rushed, then 43 million primary care physician workdays per year are needed (507 million visits divided by 12 visits per day). If physicians work an average of 200 days per year, then an estimated 215 000 active, full-time primary care physicians would be needed for all the primary care office visits in the United States. That number is nearly identical to the estimated 209 000 internists, family physicians, and pediatricians (160 000 + 49 000) needed based on the conservative panel size calculations.

From either a supply or a demand perspective, enough physicians are available for all US patients. Given this balance, and assuming these estimates are accurate, there is no obvious physician shortage.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 16, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
Maybe the government is holding off on more physicians due to their bedside manner.

Enduring modern medicine is like what happens when you pile into a cab after a fun Saturday night.

You're met with a foreign glare from someone you put your money into, who you thought would make it alright...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 17, 2017 - 08:16am PT
Ken .... good article, your union at work. Gee-wiz.

locker

climber
May 17, 2017 - 08:26am PT


FACTS elude the ignorant...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 17, 2017 - 08:36am PT
here is no obvious physician shortage.

Especially at most country clubs! On the other hand, when I moved my mom near me I had to find new docs for her. I went online to peruse those that take her insurance. All I can say is

"Can I buy a vowel?"

I would conservatively estimate that 75% of the docs offered didn't attend a med school that I would put in the same league as UCLA or USC.
locker

climber
May 17, 2017 - 08:39am PT


^^^

Your point is not on point...

"Apples for Oranges"...

Physician SHORTAGE...

NOT Physician education...




monolith

climber
state of being
May 17, 2017 - 08:52am PT
Putin offers to help Trump by providing details of the meeting.

So completely bizarre.

This 'winning' is to much to take. Please, can we lose a little some of the time?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 17, 2017 - 08:57am PT
Locker, there's a shortage of qualified physicians.
Maybe yer happy going to see Dr Demento but I'm knott!
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
May 17, 2017 - 09:03am PT
Ken M, there are many doctors that are inexperienced and/or incompetent, as reflected in your statistics by the discrepancy between the median and the average number of patients per doctor.

Try to make an appointment with a good doctor in a city. You will wait several days for a primary, and several weeks for a specialist.

On the other hand, I can make an appointment on the same day with a unpopular doctor.

So either way, many people risk their lives by waiting for a good doctor, so setteling with a butcher.

We do need more goog doctors.

Moose

PS. Cross posting with Reilly.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2017 - 09:08am PT
What field that requires skill is not afflicted with a shortage of good practitioners and a bunch of bench-warmers? This circumstance seems to be a basic axiom of humanity.
locker

climber
May 17, 2017 - 09:37am PT

EDITED...



"Maybe yer happy going to see Dr Demento"...


He's got the GUD sh!t!!!...

locker

climber
May 17, 2017 - 09:39am PT


"We do need more goog doctors."...


Goog, goog, goog, choob!!!...

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 17, 2017 - 09:44am PT

The current American CEO, Trump, is an arrogant, aggressive man who believes what he himself feels and thinks. His preferred position seems to be American dictator. He is doing his best to undermine American media and American democratic institutions. He will have a hard time undermining American media, but if he is given one more period (Americans love guns and shooting, so he will need a popular war), then he can do a lot of damage to American democratic institutions...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 10:03am PT
These are valid points on the issue of accessibility to "well trained" physician. However, be cautious of your bias. The absolute smartest physician I've ever encountered, trained in India. The wisest, is a black man.

There is also an illusion created by some physicians "busy-ness". As is true with many workers, where one is in charge of the volume of business, there is a tendency to increase the business to fill the time available.

So let's say a person takes a longstanding prescription of thyroid hormone. How often do they need to have their blood tested and see a doc? Generally, once a year. But I've seen docs drag them back every other month, and will not refill their prescriptions without the visit. The unwitting patient thinks of that as "thorough". It is generally referred to as "churning".
It's an extraordinarily risk-free way to boost income.

VERY common, particularly among those with light schedules.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 10:06am PT
Putin offers to provide Congress with details of Trump disclosures to Russian envoys

The provocative offer was met with scoffs on Capitol Hill as lawmakers considered the idea that the Kremlin could help shed light on the disclosures of reportedly highly classified intelligence.

This is extraordinary!

Can you imagine, if he supplies something that reinforces Trump, Trump owes him!

If he supplies something that hurts Trump, he has destabilized the US Gov't.

Without firing a shot!

Will anyone fall for the trap?
locker

climber
May 17, 2017 - 10:19am PT


"Will anyone fall for the trap?"...


Yes...


The Republicans...
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
May 17, 2017 - 10:23am PT
Yup, it's called Party First!!

They consider Putin their Bro now...it's all good!
locker

climber
May 17, 2017 - 10:26am PT

^^^

Exactly...

and it's just as big of a problem as Trump...
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
May 17, 2017 - 10:41am PT
hehe - Tour De Trump
hehe - Tour De Trump
Credit: Cragar
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 17, 2017 - 11:00am PT
And rural schisthole states like Idaho don't attract as many doctors, per this U.S.A Today ranking that has Idaho as the 4th worst state for doctors per 100,000 population. Mississippi of course is the worst & the best ratio state, Massachusetts, has nearly twice as many doctors per 100,000 as Idaho does.

4. Idaho
> Doctors per 100,000 people: 172.5
> Medical students per 100,000 people: N/A
> Pct. without health insurance: 17.7% (11th highest)
> Life expectancy: 79.2 years (20th highest)

Although Idaho's doctor shortage is among the worst in the nation, the state's lack of medical residents is potentially just as problematic. There are just 3.9 medical residents per 100,000 people in Idaho — the second-worst figure in the U.S. and well below the national figure of 35.8 per 100,000. The Pending retirement of doctors in the state is also an issue. In a report on Idaho's doctor shortage, NPR noted that 41.5% of physicians in the state are 55 and older. Idaho is one of just a few states that has no accredited medical school.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/10/20/doctors-shortage-least-most/1644837/

Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 17, 2017 - 11:11am PT
This explains what happened to Americas health care system. A must read. Wow, everyone was asleep at the wheel, and old Tricky Dick slipped one by us all along with Edgar Kaiser of Kaiser Permanente. I never knew this....unbelievable.
https://www.sott.net/article/351109-Thanks-Nixon-Before-1973-it-was-against-US-law-to-make-a-profit-off-of-health-care

We need to wake the f*#k up and go after these criminal organizations. It basically makes all other discussions moot. There is no reason to have private HMO's. This is evil and greed on a scale that's hard to imagine.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 17, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
As usual, SOTT is not a dependable source of information.

Private, for profit health insurance companies started in the 1940s.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/2007/03/a_short_history_of_health_care.html

Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 17, 2017 - 01:53pm PT
As usual, the truth hurts. SOTT is a releiable source for news, you just can't have your head to far up your a*#. According to your article, it all started back in the early day, and your article does not even mention the HMOA 73 legislation, so right there I call Bullsh#t. It is all directly attributable to the legislation Nixon signed in 1971, and if that act was revoked, and healthcare was made not for profit, and anyone associated with healthcare had to work for the care of the patient, and not for profit, then we would be far better off as a country. There can be no question on that whatsoever.
Just because you find a article on Chatterbox, which you did Monolith, doesn't make it correct or accurate. Its another smoke screen article that does not delve into the root of the problem, and tries to take issue somewhere else, then the exact cause. I would not be surprised if the author of your article is paid by a HMO for writing it.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 17, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
You'll find lots of links showing the history of for profit health insurance long before Nixon.

Dig in there and step away from 'The Truth' type sources. You've been pushing Sott for some time now. It's just plain creepy when you look into it. (The founders talking to aliens and channeling with their future self)

And yes, it would be nice to end the for profit part of health care.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 17, 2017 - 03:03pm PT

I would conservatively estimate that 75% of the docs offered didn't attend a med school that I would put in the same league as UCLA or USC.

You realize, I hope, that half of all doctors have to be below average.
locker

climber
May 17, 2017 - 03:26pm PT


Trumps "Touch" is the Anti-Midas "Touch"... (Unless viewed from a Freudian perspective)

Instead of GOLD...

everything and everyone he touches turns to SH!T...



Those in support of him have lost ALL credibility...

WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
On Trump

“Before he makes any decision, he posts on Twitter.
He tweets and then checks the responses in order to make his decision."

ROFLMAO !!!!!

Modern POTUS ... for the people by the people.

Way too funny .......
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
May 17, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
to special prosecuter Mueller - LOCK HIM UP!

Credit: little Z

thank you Rod Rosenstein. This man has a huge set of balls (this guy down here, not that loser up there)

Credit: little Z


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
And rural schisthole states like Idaho don't attract as many doctors, per this U.S.A Today ranking that has Idaho as the 4th worst state for doctors per 100,000 population. Mississippi of course is the worst & the best ratio state, Massachusetts, has nearly twice as many doctors per 100,000 as Idaho does.

Well, Idaho chooses not to spend the money on a medical school and residency training. Why is this a problem? They've made a choice, they're adults.
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
Idaho is not as sick as the rest of the country.

Thus they don't need as many doctors ...... :-)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
Then why are we talking about Idaho?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
Special Prosecutor?


McCain says this is as big a deal as Watergate......
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
McCain is an azzhole and a criminal.

He should be the first one to go to jail for the criminal murders of all those civilians he caused in Ukraine ......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
More importantly, McCain is a Republican.

The wall is crumbling....
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 17, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
I wonder if Trump is tired of winning yet?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 17, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 17, 2017 - 07:30pm PT
WBraun...McCain has already done time in jail in Nam serving his country...Please share about McCains Ukraine thing....
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
Go away Johny stalker.

You're a useless fool.

Go look up McCriminals buddies in Nam he fked over.

Go look up all the veterans he fked over.

You're one brainwashed idiot ....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 17, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
WBraun...I was asking you to hear your side of the story but instead i got the big knee jerk...Thanks for the open dialogue...
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
There's no my side of the story.

Go find the story .....

You won't do it .....
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
May 17, 2017 - 07:58pm PT

#UNHINGEDLIBERALS!!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 17, 2017 - 08:05pm PT
BRaun... The story is yours... Share your wisdom..
locker

climber
May 17, 2017 - 08:11pm PT


#TrumpSupportersOnTheirKneesSuckingKockAdoodleDoosDoodle...
F

climber
away from the ground
May 17, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
"Yes your honor. I would like to plead 'FAKE NEWS' to all counts."

Even if Cosmic can't work, he won't ever go hungry.
Plenty of crow to eat.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
May 17, 2017 - 09:41pm PT
^^^^

Yep.

UNHINGED
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
May 17, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
monolith

climber
state of being
May 17, 2017 - 09:48pm PT
RottenJonny, Braun is a huuuge fan of 'Veterans Today', a conspiracy and fake news site. They hate Mccain. Google 'veterans today mccain'
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
May 17, 2017 - 10:15pm PT
Credit: Cosmiccragsman
No wonder Moose is, DROOLING.
No wonder Moose is, DROOLING.
Credit: Cosmiccragsman
F

climber
away from the ground
May 18, 2017 - 12:22am PT
Comic, is there such a thing as a "hinged liberal"...?
Your superior knowledge on the subject is deferred to...
frostback

Social climber
great white north
May 18, 2017 - 06:26am PT
Always a pleasure to check in to see what passes for political discourse on ST.
Carry on.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 18, 2017 - 07:48am PT
House Majority Leader McCarthy told colleagues in 2016: ‘I think Putin pays’ Trump


Kevin McCarthy made the politically explosive assertion in a private conversation on Capitol Hill in June 2016 with his fellow GOP leaders. House Speaker Paul D. Ryan interjected and stopped the conversation from exploring McCarthy’s assertion, saying: “No leaks. ... This is how we know we’re a real family here.”
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2017 - 10:49am PT
Here is a national policy issue: why is it not a crime to use a political office to further obviously provable lies? Holders of all political offices must be accountable to a more stringent standard because the consequences of their actions affect so many more people. And if it is already a crime, why is it not immediately enforced? There is room, while giving respect to the complexity of reality and the variety of perspectives, to honor truth and facts. If we surrender that, we are truly in for dark times.

Just as a reality check, here is a collection of obviously provable lies that do not serve a greater good or national interest, and the President clearly knows that what he is saying is untrue:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/maryanngeorgantopoulos/president-trump-lie-list

How did we as a society reach a state where this is acceptable? What greater good or lesser evil are we choosing when this collection of facts was the best path forward for our nation? What do we need to do differently as a nation to steer our way toward honesty and integrity?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 18, 2017 - 11:11am PT
What do we need to do differently as a nation to steer our way toward honesty and integrity?



For starters.... the cray cray cray Democrats can calm down for just a moment. The cray cray cray cray Republicans also.

WTF is wrong with you people?

As much as you all hate it-- Donald Trump is the President, "Commander in Chief" ..... The most powerful person in the world. In that capacity.... he can share the nuclear football with anybody, he has the power to declassify anything- on the spot- if he thinks it is necessary. Only him.....

Chucky Schummer can go and pound sand, he can call for transcripts all day long.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 18, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
It surprises me that there are still people standing behind the dumbass. Now, I can understand party loyalty, but in case you haven't noticed, the GOP are running from the man this last few days.

I do feel sorry for those who voted for the man in good faith, in hopefulness for the future of this country. News flash - it was a lie. The fker will say ANYTHING to get what he wants, when he wants it. That's a relevant strategy in his book. How in the hell anyone can consider themselves a xian and defend that lack of moral and ethical behavior s beyond me.

Yu r man is going down, and there's precious little time left to jump ship and save whatever smidgeon of face you have left. What? Are you actually going to stand alongside him and say he has been railroaded by the Dems who just couldn't stand to have lost an election they ought have won? REALLY???? If yes, then I guess we really ought to believe that God protects drunkards and idiots.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 18, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
Guy,

The cray cray Dems are not the issue here. They just smell blood in the water. Trump was never ready for this. Most people in America could see that. The pressure is too much. He just keeps digging and digging because he doesn't know what else to do.

I feel sad for America. The crappy state of American politics and the Russians drove us to do something really stupid. Now we have suck it up and get on a better track as soon as we can.

We really need to clean house, but partisanship will make that almost impossible.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 18, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
*Trump was warned by Sally Yates, STRONGLY, about M Flynn.

*Flynn himself warned the White House that he was under Federal investigation for his ties to Turkey.

*President Obama warned Trump personally, after the election, about Flynn.

Trump hired him anyway.

What a twit.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 18, 2017 - 04:16pm PT
The Russian's have done their job
destabilize our Democracy

Trump was the obvious way to make that happen
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
May 18, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
^^^^^ Cosmic - Russian agent! Probably a closet Commie!!!

Hehehe

Moose
monolith

climber
state of being
May 18, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
Trumps going down. Not good for his brand. Poor Ivanka. Who would wear her collection now?
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
May 18, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
Business as usual!
Business as usual!
Credit: T Hocking
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 18, 2017 - 05:26pm PT
House Majority Leader McCarthy told colleagues in 2016: ‘I think Putin pays’ Trump


Kevin McCarthy made the politically explosive assertion in a private conversation on Capitol Hill in June 2016 with his fellow GOP leaders. House Speaker Paul D. Ryan interjected and stopped the conversation from exploring McCarthy’s assertion, saying: “No leaks. ... This is how we know we’re a real family here.”

The best part is that before publishing the account, the reporter asked Ryan and McCarthy to comment. Both denied the conversation ever happened.

The reporter called both back for confirmation, and got the same answer. No such conversation happened.

Then the reporter called back again with the information that he had listened to a tape of the exchange.
Caught in the lie, they claimed it was a joke. The reporter said it didn't sound like one.

Cell phones are a wonderful tool.
WBraun

climber
May 18, 2017 - 05:33pm PT
Russians haven't done sh!t to you stoopid brainwashed idiots who are no better than Trump .....

It's so scary to see how stoopid and brainwashed you people really are here in America.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 18, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
The republicans are faced with getting rid of Trump now, and maybe getting 6-8 months of semi normality under Pence before the mid terms, or riding the current shitshow to its logical conclusion (impeachment, removal, or just bogged down in incompetence). I'd probably take my chances with the first option.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 18, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) said after a closed-door Senate meeting on Thursday that the federal investigation into alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian operatives now appears to be a criminal investigation.

“It was a counterintelligence investigation before now. It seems to me now to be considered a criminal investigation,” he said after a meeting with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/05/lindsey-graham-trump-russia-investigation-has-evolved-into-a-criminal-investigation/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 18, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
WBraun... Quit stalking us stoopid brainwashed crankloons...
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
May 18, 2017 - 07:22pm PT
Time to get this thread a buddy bench. Trump could of used one 65 years ago...because everyone needs a true friend.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
May 18, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
The republicans are faced with getting rid of Trump now, and maybe getting 6-8 months of semi normality under Pence before the mid terms, or riding the current shitshow to its logical conclusion (impeachment, removal, or just bogged down in incompetence). I'd probably take my chances with the first option.

I think that it's politically in their best interest to delay the inevitable. Put Pence in charge now and he'll have time to be blamed for anything that happens up to Nov 2018. Keep Trump in place until the primaries, then take all the wind out of the democrat sails when Trump discovers a special rare medical condition that forces him to relinquish the post.

My money says Trump can't last nearly that long. Then I don't know what scares me more, a disgruntled Trump teaming up with a bunch of armed conspiracy nuts, or the religious zealot who will take his place.

TE
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
May 18, 2017 - 07:40pm PT
LMAO!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2017/05/18/is-donald-trump-a-witch/?utm_term=.99225f051d28

"[]So we must ask: Why is this happening to this man? Why is this witch hunt even taking place? Why do so many people think that Trump is a witch?

True, he may not think he is a witch. But are there not grounds for suspicion?

He has lots of things a witch might have, like invisible riches that fluctuate depending upon his feelings and the ability to make White House press secretary Sean Spicer squirm and twitch in his absence until Trump gives the word for his suffering to cease. Have you ever seen him recite the Lord’s Prayer all the way through? I have no idea if he floats when not on a yacht. Also, his hair stands on end at all times. Since he has taken office, Americans have begun aging 300 years in the course of a week. Time is out of joint. A ghastly specter has risen up from a vile mist and might be offered a position at the Department of Homeland Security. The world is a mist of illusion. Is this not witchcraft?

Then again, no. He would be a wizard. Witches are nasty women, whereas Trump is a mighty warlock whom we do not adequately appreciate and for whose witch’s teat and demon familiar we should immediately cease our search. If he has signed his name in the Devil’s Book, that simply means that the book is now much more valuable and classy.

Why won’t we leave him alone? Such a hunt is not fair to Trump, who does not have to do this, after all. Clearly, he is not adequately appreciated in the White House, and he should not feel compelled to stay in a place where he is not appreciated."

Moose
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
May 18, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
It is time to initiate the Basil Fawlty Award for the person who digs himself deeper every time he opens his mouth or Twitter account.
My nominee?
You will have to guess
JC Marin

Trad climber
CA
May 18, 2017 - 10:28pm PT
Is America great again...or what?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 19, 2017 - 08:58am PT
Well ... Thank all of you "political experts" for your keen insight.

It's all the same sort of gibberish and groundless speculation that you all tossed out prior to Hillery's guaranteed "Victory"..... So lets just see how it goes.

Yes... lets get started on the mid-terms.... democratic landslide????--somehow I think its highly unlikely.

But we will see.

well back to work... happy Friday

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2017 - 09:55am PT
I too think that Trump is bad for our country. But he is just an ugly symptom of a deeper problem. Don't forget that roughly half the voters in America thought he was the least evil option. What does that say about how our government is meeting the needs of the people?

The growing divide between rich and poor, privileged and deprived, will exacerbate the ping-pong effect of a dissatisfied electorate voting for the opposite of what's in power at every opportunity.

I don't think Bernie Sanders is a human on a pedestal or someone who should be worshipped or blindly followed, but I think he is the only one who put his finger on the pulse of what is wrong with our country, and had an inclusive vision to make it better for everyone, including the people to whom he didn't effectively target his message.

I'm concerned that the main current of the Democratic Party will seize on the small-minded vengeance and bloodletting and lose sight of the core issues and policies that make it, in my mind, a more effective path (of the two biggest parties) to happiness for the most people in our country.
locker

climber
May 19, 2017 - 10:24am PT


"and groundless speculation that you all tossed out prior to Hillery's guaranteed"...


Guy...

Have you been paying attention to all the evidence suggesting otherwise???...

Don't be fooled by the fool in the big seat...

He has small hands that go along with his small mind...



EDITED:

Trump loves Putin...

HOW can you support that piece of sh!t???...



moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
May 19, 2017 - 12:48pm PT
Guyman supporting Trump?

I don't think so.

Moose
locker

climber
May 19, 2017 - 12:51pm PT

"Guyman supporting Trump?

I don't think so."
...



Pretty sure he does...(HOPE I am wrong :-)



Am I wrong again, Frank???...

Is this another South/East/West entrance issue I am having???...

LOL!!!...

HELP!!!...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 19, 2017 - 01:13pm PT
Witches are nasty women

Stop it.

You'll make the munchkins laugh again.
Norton

Social climber
May 19, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
“The dominant reaction to Trump right now is mockery,” Jacob Heilbrunn, the editor of the conservative journal the National Interest, told the meeting at the German Foreign Office here while moderating a panel on Trump’s foreign policy that dealt heavily on the difficulty of divining an actual policy amid the spectacle. Heilbrunn, whose publication hosted Trump’s inaugural foreign policy speech in Washington during last year’s campaign, used the ‘L’ word too. “The Trump administration is becoming an international laughingstock.” Michael Werz, a German expert from the liberal U.S. think tank Center for American Progress, agreed, adding he was struck by “how rapidly the American brand is depreciating over the last 20 weeks.”
Norton

Social climber
May 19, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
"Guyman supporting Trump?

I don't think so."...

really? you have not been following the various political threads then

Guyman along with others such as Cosmic, as unapologetically pro Trump

Guyman is so irritated with all the negative, anti Trump postings on this thread that lately he has posted in support of Trump and just can't seem to understand why Trump's behavior as President should bother anyone, because according to guyman he is doing such a good job