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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 12, 2018 - 11:34am PT
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"political will" is, importantly, sourced by "the people"
your individual commitment is important, while I also would like to see a carbon tax, the most efficient way to price fossil fuel costs for all products and services, I think I could make better choices on my fossil fuel use than I have in the past.
there are people who make the choice to have fewer (or no) children, intentionally.
there are people who eat meat free, or meat less, or chose what animal product they eat, intentionally,
there are people who take fewer flights, intentionally.
there are people who buy energy efficient cars, buy electric cars, or decide to go carless, intentionally.
many people who make these choices post to STForum, but don't trumpet their choices, they are individual choices first and foremost.
thanks to all of you. I try to live up to your examples.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Aug 12, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
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I listened to an economics podcast that discussed taxing carbon but then, essentially, giving the money back in terms of tax breaks. I'm really not sure how/why this would work. I mean, after a while, wouldn't we figure out that while something costs more in the moment, I'm getting it back later in the year, so eff it, I'm buying the biggest SUV I can? I sometimes fantasize about a car-free life, especially if I lived in some cool town like Eugene, OR, but my climbing would pretty much stop. These days, living in Bishop, I drive a fair amount to the local crags. We didn't have kids, but I can say that environmental concerns were so small a part of our deliberations as to be insignificant.
Of course, if the USA goes full-on, hardcore carbon tax, transportation mandates, etc., how the hell do we get the rest of the globe to follow, especially after we've had so much growth and prosperity because of our wild carbon party? It's kind of like Conrad Anker on a global scale: We had a great time, living the high life, but now the rest of you tighten your belts. I totally get why it's a good idea, but as a practical matter, damn, the hurdles are HUGE.
BAd
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Aug 12, 2018 - 01:51pm PT
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It was a Republican president who, in 2001, declined to implement the Kyoto Protocol, a binding global treaty to reduce carbon pollution.
Your history is a bit fuzzy, Mal. The U.S. Senate never ratified the treaty--a very flawed and political instrument that would have done little, if anything, to mitigate CO2 buildup. In fact, Canada withdrew in 2012 after failing to meet their targets.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Aug 12, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
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I have no idea what the end game is here, but I think we should at least be honest about what we're arguing for. Except for a few True Believers, I don't see anyone willing to do what it takes to truly cut back on our carbon addiction
Great post! There is no escaping the hypocrisy. Heck, even riding a bicycle is a carbon-intense activity. The calories it takes to peddle are bathed in oil from fertilizer to farm to harvest to market.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Aug 12, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
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RE: taxing carbon but then, essentially, giving the money back in terms of tax breaks. I'm really not sure how/why this would work. I mean, after a while, wouldn't we figure out that while something costs more in the moment, I'm getting it back later in the year, so eff it, I'm buying the biggest SUV I can?
The money you pay in RNCF for excessive SUV fuel will NOT be returned to the same people. RNCF = Revenue Neutral Carbon Fee. One easy way to redistribute it would be to reduce income tax brackets on the working & middle class.
Say an average amount of RNCF is $1000 per year, which includes fuel for your car, fossil fuels for electricity and heat, and adds some cost to many products.
If you are a high carbon user, your carbon fees will likely be much more than the average. Yet at the end of the year your income tax will not decrease nearly enough to offset your carbon fee.
Now take a person that is a very low carbon user, so hardly pays any RNCF. They will still receive the $1000 in reduced income taxes (on average), because they would no longer be forced to pay the external costs of high carbon users.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Aug 12, 2018 - 02:20pm PT
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"I would willingly pay for my share of CO2 taxes if everyone else is also."
I think that is true for most people at this point. However many want someone else to go first. They are buying into the Koch/Heartland/ALEC/Exxon/Coal/Cato/Fox disinformation campaign.
They don't realize that someone else already did go first. California is way ahead of most of the country. Much of Europe is way ahead of California. Most other countries realize that no one climate treaty will be final. It is a process. Every few years the world would try to decrease GHGs more and more, while being as fair as possible. This should have started 30-40 years ago. With the USA being one of worst carbon users, we should be taking the lead, and then insisting that others follow.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Aug 12, 2018 - 08:15pm PT
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Thanks, Splater. That makes sense. Of course, the wealthy will still be able to do whatever they want, as always.
BAd
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Aug 12, 2018 - 11:36pm PT
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Most people will be incentivized by an RNCF,
but if needed, other policies are always possible.
Capitalism does usually result in the rich being able to afford more.
Tiered pricing affects heavy users the most - for example tiered utility rates are like a progressive tax.
Some types of mandates & regulation can work, but are often more bureaucratic:
EPA CAFE rules.
New homes requiring solar panels.
Rules requiring increasing percentage renewable energy for utilities.
Future plans to stop selling all fossil fuel vehicles.
Higher yearly registration fees for gas guzzlers.
Stopping any tax deductions for anything except the most efficient choices.
Subsidies such as those for electric cars.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Aug 13, 2018 - 09:45am PT
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Of course, if the rest of the globe goes full-on, hardcore carbon tax, transportation mandates, etc., how the hell do we get the USA to follow?
I still have hope, but I don't have much optimism. Not that I will live to see it, but I think things will get really, really bad and Republicans will still refuse to do much that is very useful.
20 years ago, one might have thought that a summer like 2018, with the fires, the droughts, and record setting heat waves all over the world would be enough to shock the republican crowd into action.
Nopity, nopity, nope. Pretty much business as usual.
We could have $200 billion of flooding in New Orleans, Miami, and the Atlantic states and R's would still primary any Republican that suggested a 50 cent gasoline tax.
As I started my post, I hope I am being too cynical.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Aug 13, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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I have no idea what the end game is here, but I think we should at least be honest about what we're arguing for. Except for a few True Believers, I don't see anyone willing to do what it takes to truly cut back on our carbon addiction
I don't think it is possible for a person to live sustainably in an unsustainable society. It is certainly not possible for 7 billion people to suddenly start living sustainbly.
This is why I think it is far more important to change society than for a few individuals to try and make a few small difference.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Aug 13, 2018 - 10:13am PT
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I don't think it is possible for a person to live sustainably in an unsustainable society. It is certainly not possible for 7 billion people to suddenly start living sustainbly.
This is why I think it is far more important to change society than for a few individuals to try and make a few small difference.
Change society? In what way?
A bit outdated--1968--and some of it flat out wrong. But Hardin's The Tragedy of the Commons remains a required read.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/162/3859/1243.full
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 15, 2018 - 06:23am PT
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Malemute
Aug 14, 2018 - 08:07pm PT
Heat now kills more Americans than floods, hurricanes or other natural disasters – but cities are facing it almost entirely alone
“It’s only a matter of time until the west is completely insufficiently prepared for climate change,” says Brian Petersen, a climate change and planning academic at Northern Arizona University. “If we really wanted to be prepared we would be doing a lot of different things that we’re not doing.
Cold weather is 20 times as deadly as hot weather, and it's not the extreme low or high temperatures that cause the most deaths, according to a study published Wednesday.
The study found the majority of deaths occurred on moderately hot and moderately cold days instead of during extreme temperatures.
"Although the risk of mortality due to extremely cold or hot days is actually higher, they are less frequent," said lead author Antonio Gasparrini of the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine.
The study — published in the British journal The Lancet — analyzed data on more than 74 million deaths in 13 countries between 1985 and 2012. Of those, 5.4 million deaths were related to cold, while 311,000 were related to heat.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2015/05/20/cold-weather-deaths/27657269/
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Aug 15, 2018 - 07:00am PT
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Interesting, Edward! Not an argument in favor of more emissions, but it makes sense.
BAd
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Aug 15, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
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"Change society? In what way?"
well just for a starter making consumers pay the full cost of the products their lining up for would be good...
really goes against the 'free market' thought but we can dream!
We don't have a free market now. The price of eating out includes having to pay the help minimum wage. The cost of running your AC, if you get electricity from a coal plant, includes the cost of anti-pollution controls (for acid rain, particulates, etc.) on the plant. A package of cigarettes contains taxes both to discourage smoking and help pay for negative effects.
A CO2 tax is politically toxic, but conceptually it fits easily within what we already do.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Aug 15, 2018 - 12:33pm PT
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I think the number of heat deaths are going to rapidly increase over the next hundred years. Unless we eliminate poverty (not impossible, but seems unlikely) there are going to be a lot of poor people in parts of Africa and Asia that will face death from heat.
At a high enough heat index, even a healthy adult sitting in the shade will overheat and die. The world hasn't reached that point, but in coming decades there are places that will. Obviously those not in good health will kick off at lower temps.
For some places, having access to AC will be a matter of life and death during hot spells.
If they haven't been replaced with robots, agricultural and other outdoor workers are really go to suffer also.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Aug 15, 2018 - 01:23pm PT
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Reading The Sixth Extinction right now--grimly sobering, and a great read. I REALLY want a time machine to jump forward 500, 1,000, 10,0000 years to get a sense for what happens. For all the forecasts and modeling, we really don't know. The Earth has been through this before. In fact, we only exist because of some mass extinction in the past. Ravens, coyotes, and c*#k roaches will inherit the earth.
BAd
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Aug 15, 2018 - 03:11pm PT
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9 inches of rain in 3 hours over here yesterday.
Normal.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 15, 2018 - 03:50pm PT
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No such thing. Liberal, Obama, Hillary, Chinese, Scientific conspiracy. Everything is fine. Keep consuming and everything will work itself out.
Besides, Mars is like really cool, and stuff.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Aug 15, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
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I was once an optimist about this. My current assessment; Earth abides and flourishes following the human extinction event. If there ends up being another "intelligent species" that can decipher the geological record, the human extinction event will coincide with the end of the Anthropocene (the age of humans); a span of time that is so small that it can be treated as a point in time (a very thin layer that will likely only be preserved here and there, geologically) for all practical purposes to the future intelligence. It will be one of the biggest extinction events in Earth's history (it already is, btw) -- right up there with End-of-Permian and End-of-Cretaceous, aka, End of Paleozoic and End of Mesozoic. It will essentially be an End of Cenozoic event (again, it already is).
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 15, 2018 - 04:52pm PT
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human extinction
Can't be done, it's never ever been done. nor will it ever be done.
The human race does not have that absolute power.
The gross materialists are always in poor fund of knowledge ......
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