Why Climb Everest ?

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Stewart Johnson

Mountain climber
lake forest
May 30, 2016 - 09:00am PT
Exellent critique Mr L!
I'm just trying to point out that
Everest offers real climbing for normal
Climbers, or at least it did.
I never claimed our acsent was "pure"
and yes, S Venables did use an old fixed
rope on the Hillary step. And yes we
Trashed the mountain by leaving
our fixed ropes behind. And three
Small tents etc .
If you've read the account you know we
were in survival mode.

I've already stated no big mountains
in Asia have been climbed without help
from the local populations.
Even R Messners solo acsent was
Aided by a few Tibetan yak drivers etc.
We had the entire village of Khartse
Help us get to the mountain
And these same people helped us
Get back to Khartse.
I'm not sure if you are familiar with
Climbing in Tibet but the Chinese are
In charge of paying the locals.

It's 2016 and with all those people on
The two routes in Nepal and Tibet
One would hope that anyone
Trying to be special by not using 02
Would also show the ability to move
About without fixed ropes and camps is
Just wishful thinking on my part, my bad.

As far as myself, a bad headache and
a bunch of vomiting was a warning for
me to descend ASAP from the south col
The morning after our first night there.
An uneventful 8 hour descent was one
Of the best days on the hill for me .
I went on to make three more attempts
in the next few years without attaining
the top.

How many days have you spent on
Everest mr L?



August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 30, 2016 - 01:35pm PT
Yikes August West.....apples vs. oranges in your analogy with El Cap....big difference between sherpa support and depending on a partner who has taken the time to develop similar SKILLS to yours to succeed on El Cap.
Many climb Everest with massive sherpa support and guides who have never developed much in the way of climbing or mountaineering skills.....they have relied on their checkbooks.

It wasn't intended as a direct analogy. But I was calling BS that getting to the top of Everest isn't a "personal accomplishment". They could have a national park service trail, complete with ice-free, metal steps (and a handrail, don't forget the handrail), and a mountain hut every 1000' with food, drink, and beds... And it would still be a huge, personal accomplishment for most people to get to the top.

Is hiking to the top of Half Dome not a personal accomplishment because the Park Service put up a cable?

Is doing the Nose invalid because I relied on my checkbook to buy the latest, fanciest gear?

Ok, on less of a rant:

If people don't want to be part of the zoo that is Everest, more power to them. Like most things, I'm sure it could be improved. But I don't see the inherent problem with having a "helping hand" (paid or otherwise) take you where you wouldn't otherwise be able to go. And I don't see the need to denigrate them for what they have accomplished.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
Along these lines I note that Stewart Johnson above who did a new technical and dangerous route in alpine style on Everest suddenly developed altitude sickness at the South Col after already spending a couple months above 15,000 feet. Unless you've been to those altitudes, you have no idea of the challenge presented by them even on a well trodden and fixed rope path.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 30, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
I don't want to discourage people sharing rad adventures by pointing my weak and crooked finger at 'em

But that is exactly what you are doing.



Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
May 30, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
The sudden development of altitude sickness even when one is relatively acclimatized can often be attributed to carbon monoxide poisoning. The symptoms are almost identical. CO is produced very rapidly by camp stoves in a tent, and there's so little oxygen at really high altitudes that it takes only a minor amount of CO to snaffle up your margin.

I suspect a lot of altitude sickness in the high mountains are actually CO poisoning or a combination of CO and altitude. And the end result can be the same with either.
Tricouni

Mountain climber
Vancouver
May 30, 2016 - 06:38pm PT
Good point, fossil. I've wondered whether mild, undiagnosed sleep apnea might contribute to the develpment of altitude sickness.
Stewart Johnson

Mountain climber
lake forest
May 30, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
Kangshung face alpine style?
If you were thoroughly acclimated, it's
Totally possible. But what then? Get in line?
I was lucky enough to go to
Everest before the entire guiding
circus ruined the mountain for real climbers.







ecdh

climber
the east
May 30, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
how it can be. white limbo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XLpGC_1Am0 etc

funny accents, funnier synthesizers, great hats, good style. even their idea of fixed ropes is kinda cool.

sh#t, in this day hardly anyone is interested in climbing new 5000m lines, let alone +8000m ones. but thats cool. that sh#t never will be for everyone.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2016 - 07:38am PT
I don't think I was mislead in my impression of Stewart's climbing. Rather, there is no particular word to describe what they did. It was not alpine climbing European style but it was also not seige climbing in the style of the many British expeditions to Everest. While they did have porters to the base of the climb, they did it all on their own once they left the ground. Therefore I think semi alpine better describes it than semi siege. Nowadays that would even be hard to pull off, given the reputation of the Kharta people for going on strike and trying to extort higher wages a couple of days out, even with threats of violence. Most Nepalese Sherpas say that because of these recurrent troubles, they would not work on that side anyway.
WBraun

climber
May 31, 2016 - 07:43am PT
they did it all on their own once they left the ground.


LOL Jan

Please take no offense.

I just thought it was funny.

What you really meant is once they left base camp?

In order to climb Everest one must leave the ground and float ..... :-)
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
May 31, 2016 - 11:16am PT
Interesting thread in general. As a lot of other people, I have thought about significance of ascents, style, first ascents, difficult climbing, runouts etc etc for a while. Interesting topic to think about. Some ascents are glorified, some are completely trashed within the community, some are given way more attention in the media than others, depending who the athlete knows, who is sponsoring an athlete, how much do they share, how colorful can they make the experience sound and how much dirt is kept secret.

What it all comes down to really is people are people. Some are honest, some not, some nice, some not. We often see imperfections in others, yet don't want to admit own shortcomings. People often repress own negative thoughts and attributing them to someone else.

The climbs could seem intense on paper or with description, but if you get into it all, it makes sense. Unless suicidal, an individual does not get far out from their comfort zone on any climb. Yes we often feel exposed, remote, far from help, challenged by difficulties, maybe even in positions bailing out of which would be VERY hard but usually due to unexpected events (stuck/cut ropes, unexpected weather, rockfall, avalanche).
With time in the mountains skills and comfort level allows some to attempt harder climbs, which feel as giant of an adventure for someone with inferior skills and less comfort level who is attempting an easier in comparison route (guided or not). When I personally climbed Mt. Whitney by Mountaineer's Route in winter, I think I was more out of my comfort zone than when climbing a route rated ED on Chacraraju. Well maybe not, my general point is that with little experience easy climbs still feel like giant adventures that take one out of the comfort zone. I don't think the Kangshung face was more exciting for the members than an attempt on the regular route for some person who doesn't really climb mountains - those people think of that climb as the hardest thing possible for a human. Very subjective experiences no? It is interesting how thousands of feet of fixed (and left) ropes did not get mentioned over the years with frequent posts about the incredible adventure. Survival mode is what pretty much every expedition doing a giant siege-style ascent on giant mountains are in, when they are descending. Unless a small team brought 2 or 3 ropes, who would want to collect thousands of feet of it from fixed snow anchors on the way down after a very draining summit attempt or whatever? You have people in the Valley leaving trash on El Cap and paying locals to hike their ropes down from the top and that is an EASY, straight forward descent in comparison to ANY big mountain. Point of the rant is NOT put down ascents in any style, I honestly think people doing them are pushing their limit VERY close to the brink, to death in many cases. The number of deaths on the regular route of Everest, or even Mt. Shasta is proof that sh#t does get real for many there and there are plenty of reasons to respect their climb. Much more than to respect empty yapping on the internet at least. The amount of work, suffering and skill that goes into the big siege climbs takes years of preparation and much more. People should do their best to protect the environment, but when one is bringing thousands of feet of rope with plans to fix it on a big mountain, there is little hope it will me taken down. It is easy to say all should climb alpine style in small teams, yet climbing is not about defining style for OTHER people, as individuals we can control own practice. Important to remember whatever we do, it is not perfect, especially when put under the criticism of a peanut gallery. As long as humans stay humans, we will not be perfect.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 31, 2016 - 11:43am PT
Whatever anyone is doing on the snow and ice today beats where I am working for the man....
Stewart Johnson

Mountain climber
lake forest
May 31, 2016 - 09:00pm PT
Interesting Vitals !
If You think that a client jugging the yak way
Is getting as much of a buzz as normal
climbers pushing a new route with four
people on the K face? get real youth.

"Four people?Kangshung face? Your mad, go climb
a smaller mountain" these were the words from
Dr Charles Houston the worlds leading high
altitude expert before we left home.

Encouraging words considering the two previous
Expeditions to the K face had twenty crack climbers
With oxygen . it took them two attempts spaced out
Over three years to produce Everests hardest
And most amazing climb!

We were prepared to do whatever it takes
By whatever means at our disposal to get the job done

There is no chance of any help whatsoever
on Everests backside.

Dude,get on the plane.

cotuclimber

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
May 31, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
Over three years to produce Everests hardest 
And most amazing climb!

Have you done them all? There are other hard routes on the mountain.
In no way do I want to put down the climb you guys did, but the mention of a small team does not portray the whole picture as discussed up the thread. It was a big expedition with a lot of fixed rope. Difference between your expedition and those on the main route seem to be the fixing of lines was done by actual team members, not Sherpas. Own route finding and objective danger seems significant.
How much money did a trip like that cost and how much was provided by sponsors? Not that I will make a trip like that work with the current health issues I have now, but still curious.
Stewart Johnson

Mountain climber
lake forest
Jun 1, 2016 - 05:45am PT
Cotuclimber, going to Everest through Tibet is expensive.
Perhaps 180,000$ at least !
Robert
Of course leaving stuff on the mountain
Is bad .
In my opinion guiding on E is also bad.
Can you brief us on the state of the routes you guide?
One would hope your guided trips have
A cash reserve for cleaning your climb
After your done. Where does the trash
And poop you carry down end up?
Do you bring it back to Kdu?
Or does it stay in Tibet ?
I know on the Nepal side they have a system for rubbish.
It's gotta be allot of stuff !
I mean you've got some really large teams going up.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jun 1, 2016 - 10:14am PT
If You think that a client jugging the yak way
Is getting as much of a buzz as normal
climbers pushing a new route with four
people on the K face? get real youth.

You misunderstood me there. Being a mountain climbing noob on Everest one must be completely overwhelmed and pushing their own acceptable limits of risk, right? As experienced climbers you guys are way more secure with the environment and risk assessment, so although taking on a much harder objective, the amount of fear you experience compared to those on the regular route may actually be less. Or similar. My point is about the experience of adventure being VERY subjective. It is hard for you to relate to their experience as you were never in their shoes, climbing real sh#t has been your passion for ages.

I am having a hard time understanding why critique Melissa Arnot and Cory Richards for claiming an Everest summit without supplemental oxygen (only because they used ropes set up by those who used supplemental oxygen), when personally you guys went to that mountain with plans of fixing several thousand feet of ropes with help of a whole village to get the stuff to basecamp. "Whatever it takes." In addition, those who actually completed the route to the top used the fixed lines on regular route to get down. Before critiquing others consider the shitshow YOUR expedition left on the mountain. Has there been an expedition on the peak that left as much fixed rope in the 90s and 2000s? I mean it is cool you attempted the face, but your personal climb was never completed, Paul, so maybe it is you who should jump on the plane and avoid insulting those who did actually SEND? LOL :)
Stewart Johnson

Mountain climber
lake forest
Jun 1, 2016 - 10:45am PT
Sure Vitaliy
I intend on purchasing the plane ticket
To return.
I think you should go over there also and
Go climbing in the Himalaya that's all.
I know you would enjoy not to
Mention with your drive and ambition
You would get something big
Accomplished.
Like I said before I would hope in 2016
Everest climbers climbing without 02
Would also stay away from the yak
routes and try to really get up by
Thier own steam . wishful thinking on
My part .
Richards and Arnot are obviously
Super fit and talented climbers and
Taking a huge step in the right direction .
I was meaning no disrespect
Just getting the conversation going.
It's funny how the trends on E are.
Our route on the K face has been
Climbed a few times and attempted
A few times also
So I'm sure there's more crap
Up there now but there's so many
Avalanches and icefall I'm also sure
A majority of it has been swept to the
Bottom.
Here's a paper that you might enjoy
(Penned by John Hunt leader of the first acsent in 1953)
Or not that explains the 88 trip better








Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jun 1, 2016 - 11:43am PT
This whole climbing thing and pushing the limits is f*#king stupid. Because in the end, no one gives a sh#t but yourself, one that is doing it. The linked passage seems bogus.

This whole climbing thing and pushing the limits is f*#king shallow. In the end, no one gives a sh#t but yourself, one that is doing it. You, I, anyone else can post photos and write about the experience we had on a certain climb but no one will be able to relate to that exact experience as conditions of peaks change, the skills of the subjects are varied, the weather will vary etc etc. Hope to check out the Himalayas at some point. Climb something big or not, who gives a sh#t really...it is not like an individual climb will change the world for the better or worse. And that is not the point, for me anyway...

The linked passage seems bogus in more than one way.

"the sensation created by the first ascent of Mt. Everest in 1953 has been followed by numerous climbs on that mountain which have not been deemed worth a mention by the news media."

Does it really matter how much media attention each climb will get? The media attention is not an indication of superior style or difficulty of the climb.

"They attempted a route of unknown difficulty which they reviewed in a photograph taken from some distance."

WOAH, a new route of UNKNOWN DIFFICULTY?? That is a whole new ball game guys!! Till the 1988 expedition every team doing a NEW route KNEW the difficulty?! No one knows the difficulty of a new route...author seem to be making colorful statements and not mentioning a lot of related detail.

Photo of the Khumbu Icefall below (not mine). To an armchair judge, looks a lot harder to make a passage through that, than through the slopes in the middle of the Kangshung face. Must of been a real adventure finding a way through this mess on the first ascent...actually every new season, as the sh#t shifts so much from one season to next and even during the same season.

-photo from Wikipedia

"they had no support of Sherpa's, they employed a bare minimum of technical equipment.."

Aside from using the Sherpas to get all the technical gear and months worth of food TO the mountain and aside from five thousand feet of fixed (and left) rope, I guess it was a very little expedition. Pun intended. What other technical equipment would one want up there? A bulldozer? As compared to the big modern expeditions, you guys did not have wifi, which is kind of lame I guess. :) I would be able to appreciate the article more if the author kept it real. Bottom line is, no one but you, the individual, would be able to relate to how hard did that ascent push you as an individual, along with your mates.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jun 1, 2016 - 11:46am PT
That picture of Mallory and Ervine showing tents that today a boyscout wouldn't use harkened back to a time when climbing Everest was the real deal.

Always liked this photo of Norton. What a place to be.
Stewart Johnson

Mountain climber
lake forest
Jun 1, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
Only had one Sherpa / Sidar with us Vitals . He was our cook and
Main man.Pasang Norbu Sherpa , he did not climb and he stayed in basecamp .
Yak herders from Khartse did the grunt work to base camp
And another 9 guys made the carry to abc
I never said alpine style or really anything about style.
I'll have to mention that R. Messner has stated several times
That "the K face 88 was the best acsent of Everest in terms of style and
Adventure"
I myself don't really agree with that .
Nevertheless I'm quite proud of our climb and wanted to show
That there is a backside to Everest far removed from the circus
That we see on the south col route.
Lots of big seracs looming over your head on the Neverest buttress .
Honestly I think more like 3000 ft of rope fixed
We had good intentions to remove the ropes but freshly frost bitten climbers
Don't work so well
There's a reason Sherpa Don't like,
It's more dangerous and no helicopter etc . : ^ /


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