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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 20, 2016 - 09:48am PT
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Yesterday there were 200 summits of Everest and the Nepalese nation is rejoicing that things are getting back to normal. After three bad years on Everest (the fight, the serac fall, the earthquake provoked avalanche), it seems that the string of lo nak (black years) is over and the resident mountain goddess Miyolongsama has been appeased. Everyone is hoping this is the beginning of a recovery from the earthquake. The Nepalese government even managed to release some of the earthquake money from foreign donors that has been sitting unused for the past year. Things are looking up even though 4.0 aftershocks are continuing.
Personally, I've never had the desire to climb Everest for all the usual reasons mentioned, but it is a significant challenge for those who do. Here are some of yesterday's summiters and their personal motivations.
United States Marine Corps Ssgt. Charlie Linville became the first combat wounded veteran to summit Mount Everest along with Tim Medvetz of the Heroes Project. With them were a team of Sherpas, videographer Kazuya Hiraide, and TV producer Ed Wardle.
In the climate challenged category were Win Ko Ko and Pyae Phyo Aung from the low altitude, tropical country of Myanmar and a team of 13, including six army personnel from the desert country of the United Arab Emirates.
Lydia Bradey from New Zealand, the first woman to summit Everest without oxygen, scaled Mt Everest for the fourth time, while Masha Gordon, who hopes to be the fastest woman to complete the Explorers Grand Slam (seven summits and both poles) also climbed the mountain.
Also in the repeat category were Maya Sherpa who climbed K2 as part of the Nepalese Women's Team in 2014. Maya was the only professional female mountain guide to climb Everest this season.
Lhakpa Sherpa returned to Everest for a comeback after some years away. Her marriage to an abusive Romanian -American climber who actually knocked her unconscious at base camp on the northside during one expedition (as detailed in Outside magazine), finally left him with the help of a restraining order, and was seeking a comeback at the age of 43. It was her 7th summit.
Maya Sherpa
Lhakpa Sherpa
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 20, 2016 - 09:53am PT
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Why make redundant threads?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2016 - 10:07am PT
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Those who have something positive to say can post here. Those who want to trash the subject can do it elsewhere on the thread for that purpose.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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May 20, 2016 - 10:25am PT
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I'd go in a heartbeat, Jan.
Lhakpa Sherpa is incredible.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2016 - 10:39am PT
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I understand and sympathise with what you're saying Tami.
However, it seems to me that a person (particularly the first ascensionists) could say the same thing about an El Cap climb.
Why would anyone want to jumar half of El Cap with parties above and below them and on different routes to the left and right, then a bivouac reeking of human waste with strangers when it's been done so many times before?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2016 - 10:43am PT
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Agreed.
That's why I find it interesting to look at the different motivations of the people doing it.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 20, 2016 - 10:55am PT
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I really don't care why people want to hike up Everest. I wonder how many lbs of frozen human sh#t dot the S Col, however. Must be a few tons of turds by now?
Easy DMT....you're starting to "trash" the subject...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2016 - 10:56am PT
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That's exciting Cragman! Are you going on a private expedition or with an expedition company?
Meanwhile, here's an interesting photo of an artificial leg outfitted with crampons. That's got to be a first.
U.S. Marine Corps Ssgt. Charlie Linville and Tim Medvetz
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 20, 2016 - 10:57am PT
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So the answer must be obvious to you. Different people have different motivations.
Reading your first post, when I saw the paragraph about someone climbing it with a bunch of people and a cameraman, I admit to having "oh FML the circus as usual" thoughts. But in the same time I realized a wounded soldier, was not raised to be a mountaineer, and having a goal like climbing the highest peak in the world can give a person like that a REASON TO LIVE. Depression and suicide is a major problem for veterans AND for very successful people out there, 'the rich' as we call them. Doing things like climbing mountains is likely helping their mental health greatly. As does rock climbing or whatever, is big help for most of the climbers out there. For many of us, it is the thing that keeps us sane, or semi sane?! Reason to live for some. Suicide/depression among rock climbers is not that uncommon, makes me wonder how much shorter the life would be if there was no such passion in life... :)
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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May 20, 2016 - 11:01am PT
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Ascending up Everest is challenging and dangerous, even with guides and fixed ropes. But, it ceased to be a respected "climbing" achievement decades ago. It has become a prestige bucket list "tick" for certain well to do individuals, particularly because it is financially out of reach of the masses. Not really sure what the attraction is, but not how I want to scratch my mid life crisis.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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May 20, 2016 - 11:19am PT
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I'm sure Everest gets climbed by "real" climbers via different routes on expeditions that we never hear about. Seems like a pretty worthy objective to me.
As for the guided fixed rope crowd, I bet many get an obsessive compulsion to climb it. It always seems that way when people get killed and we learn their back story. I'm sure it's a great adventure for folks and creates an economy so it seems win win to me.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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May 20, 2016 - 11:23am PT
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Layton Kor on why he climbed a desert tower back in the 60's
"Not because it's there but because it may not be there much longer"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2016 - 11:24am PT
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Cragman, I've got the perfect outfit to help you organize it (believe me you need someone to help with logistics in Kathmandu if nothing else).
The head of it is a Sherpa friend who managed to get himself and a fellow Sherpa with no ice axe down safely from K2 on a night when many world reknowned western climbers died. He spends summers in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, so it's easy to talk to him about it.You can email me through ST.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 20, 2016 - 11:30am PT
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it's certainly not all plastic surgeons with a bucket list.
+1
Highest I have been was 6768 m or 22,205 ft (climbed it in two days from 9,000 ft but by than climbed a few peaks above 6,000M so was acclimated for a quick ascent), and breaking trail plus occasional boulder problems of climbing was hard enough. Everest is like 2000M higher! Even walk up routes up local 14ers are mentally draining. Using fixed lines, Oxygen and guides would still be hard as hell for a trained mountaineer or a professional training for that specific goal. Personally, I have respect for all climbers. Term climbing is appropriate to any going up. Rock climbing, mountaineering, ice climbing, aid etc are all forms of it. Not to be confused with each other. As a mountaineer won't usually be able to relate to technical rock climbing, a rock climber does not usually relate well to mountaineers. They are different, but both ways to go up terrain different in nature. Dealing with different challenges. Both can be very cool and rewarding.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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May 20, 2016 - 11:52am PT
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I wanted to climb Everest since I could read. However, can't think of one reason why I would climb Everest under the conditions and situations that a commercial ascent entails. While I don't denigrate those who do clamber to the top via the conga line, it's not my style. That particular experience of climbing, of ascent, even on the worlds highest mountain is not my idea of climbing or mountaineering. I prefer more autonomy and self-reliance. Those are the major reasons why I have returned to the Andes, in particular Peru's Cordillera Blanca many times. High peaks, no crowds, no peak fees, easy approach,very little regulation. Anybody want to try an Everest route off the BEATEN track, I'm all ears. But those routes are usually harder, more dangerous and folks these days desire success, at ALMOST any price. The experience is secondary to the summit. Commercial trips, at the worst, offer the illusion of the summit and at best, a real CHANCE at the summit. As long as the government of Nepal is willing to take the money, and their is no lack of willing donors, commercial trips are here to stay.
TY
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 20, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
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I spent a few months on the hill
Back in 1988
We had the entire mountain to
Ourselves climbing a new route
Just four people
No climbing Sherpa
No O2
No radios ( dumb)
Of course no one goes to the
Kangschung face anymore!
And if you did you would have
To deal with a summit que
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 20, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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Everest is a proud mountain, despite what goes on on the South side. Think the Fantasy Ridge will ever get climbed? I am happy for those who choose to go guided who find fulfillment in their quests. I am also glad that it provides a living wage to the locals, who will hopefully start earning something comparable to their Western counterparts.
I've always wanted to climb Ama Dablam, like Cragman. However, I hear it's also mired in multiple pairs of fixed lines, etc. I think I'd be disappointed with the experience. If I ever get there for other than trekking (doubtful at this stage in my life), I'd find a similar, smaller, technical peak with no one on it like:
Bhagirathi III, in the Garwhal Himalaya.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 20, 2016 - 02:56pm PT
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Think the Fantasy Ridge will ever get climbed?
Anyone is willing to cover the fees?! I would make it GO! :) And my dream unclimbed line on K2. Aye, not many are up to partner up for that type of thing..can't be done with someone you don't know well. Must solo brah.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 20, 2016 - 03:18pm PT
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I've been a climber for over 3/4 of my life. It never even entered my mind as something that I would want to do. I'll probably never do the Nose for a subset of the same reasons.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 20, 2016 - 03:31pm PT
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The nose is a great climb honestly. I would highly recommend it. Climbed it 3 times, out of season (January, early March, early April) each time with no problems from the crowds. Got passed by Sean Leary/Chric Mac once and Honnold/cameraman the other time. They did not hold us up FOR TOOOOO LONG... *tongue in cheek* :)
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ecdh
climber
the east
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May 20, 2016 - 03:36pm PT
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Its a networking exercise. 2 months playing connect four with other folks with cash to burn is good for pr. I have friends that do this.
Not for me. A lot of bullshit for not much climbing. Nothing new going on.
Kinda my idea of hell.
But then others hate what i do.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 20, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
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Jan-
As you know, I climb more for the aesthetic experience than for some numeric tick on a bucket list. My interest in Everest has never been very great, and is even less so now. Ditto the Nose. I don't care to join a conga line either on a schitt covered peak or on schitt smelling bivouac ledge of vertical rock.
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WBraun
climber
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May 20, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
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Why Climb Everest ?
Why knott. If you can do it then why knott.
I was offered to go in the 80's and get paid to boot.
But I declined only because I'm a pussy in cold weather and believed I'll just be a hindrance to the team.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 20, 2016 - 04:40pm PT
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"Bhagirathi III, in the Garwhal Himalaya."
Holy cripes, that's an unearthly looking beast.
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cotuclimber
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 20, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
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It is a mountain. The highest one!
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ecdh
climber
the east
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May 20, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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Why knott..?
For exactly the same reasons you define but using brown people and $$$$ to square them rather than rise to it personally.
Sometimes ya gotta sit sh#t out if you cant play on yer own integrity. With $50k and 2 months theres more interesting goals that need the sweat of others less.
But suppose theres worse too. $50k of coke n gasoline n ammo wouldnt go as far - apparently.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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May 20, 2016 - 04:53pm PT
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I don't make this stuff up, but it's interesting nonetheless.
Earthwise, the lowest known point is Challenger Deep, at the bottom of the Mariana Trench, 11,034 m (36,201 feet) below sea level. Only three humans are known to have reached the bottom of the trench: Jacques Piccard and US Navy Lieutenant Don Walsh in 1960 aboard the bathyscaphe Trieste, and filmmaker James Cameron in 2012 aboard Deepsea Challenger. A fourth, Jim Donini, is rumoured to have done it, but is too shy to come forward.
So who is the only person, other than Donini, to have a shot at doing the circuit, Challenger Deep to Top O' Mt Everest in one season?
It might be interesting to compare the group who aspires to the top of the of the mountain to the group which covets the lowest point in the valley, eh?
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 20, 2016 - 04:59pm PT
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Kangschung face Mt Everest
Reality ridge looks melted out
From this recent photo
Probably will never be climbed!
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ecdh
climber
the east
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May 20, 2016 - 06:00pm PT
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zBrown; very interesting contribution.
lowest point to highest point (above sea level) seems to have had various iterations of the years, and Mcartney-snapes sea to summit trip was a spike of interest (as was white limbo).
personally ive floated a 2nd lowest to 2nd highest trip for a few years, but its gnarly stuff and may scrape in as a 'last great blah blah' objective.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2016 - 12:43pm PT
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I think that Tami said it in a nutshell....a comparison with El Cap climbs doesn't hold water. Sure....some people jumar up El Cap behind a guide to get the tick on their bucket list but the vast majority CLIMB El Cap routes using the skills they have developed over countless previous climbs with little to gain except the reward of a job well done.
Tami laments that mountaineering has become a peak bagging, tick list exercise for those with time and money. True, but then there is alpinisim.....an exercise in bringing a finely honed skill set to play on difficult mountain terrain sans guides, sherpas or fixed ropes.
For me the continuing value of Everest is the money it brings to a stalwart people living in one of the poorest nations on Earth.....trickle down economy in a microcosim.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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May 22, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
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because it's still there...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 22, 2016 - 06:16pm PT
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If you need to ask the question, there are no answers that would even begin to make sense.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 22, 2016 - 06:18pm PT
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Because it's not here.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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May 22, 2016 - 06:25pm PT
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Jan:
I Think I understand the question.
That's why I chose this path:
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
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One thing to add is that a person can climb Everest without the crowds but you would have to do it in the post monsoon autumn season when cold becomes a problem. There have been some ascents then but the chances of success are less.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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May 22, 2016 - 06:56pm PT
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Good point. But any sport reduced to its numbers rather than its skill (which makes it really then a game) wont follow that.
Reduced chances of summiting enters a different scenario that ends up including a new route.
And if enough people did that the issues if congestion would only concress there as well.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 22, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
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If you're using sherpas, fixed ropes and O2 you're a high altitude tourist, not a climber.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 22, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
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Lots of climbers have had there
Best days on Everest !
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
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A prancing group photo....whoa!
I believe that in most cases "ascending" Everest is a more appropriate term than "climbing" Everest.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
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Interesting thought....has anyone ever seen a "why climb" a....Cerro Torre, Eiger, Dru, Ogre, El Cap, Foraker, Walker Spur, Fitzroy?
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ecdh
climber
the east
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May 22, 2016 - 10:32pm PT
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no. but i do wonder about it all the time.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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May 22, 2016 - 11:34pm PT
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donini wrote: "has anyone ever seen a "why climb" a....Cerro Torre, Eiger, Dru, Ogre, El Cap, Foraker, Walker Spur, Fitzroy?"
i'd suggest, there are two separate answers as to why those other "why climb ___?" questions generally don't exist... one regarding why the general public doesn't ask and one for why climbers generally don't ask...
for the general public: difference is people who climb those other mountains can just be written off as wing nuts by the general public as the general public doesn't give two hoots about any of those mountains [except for the case of el cap and the difference there is hardly anybody dies relative to the number of climbers that climb on it]... so in general no need to ask the question...
success in climbing everest on the other hand is something that the general public does, for whatever reason, give two hoots about [and as such the general public is aware of its history filled with publicized catastrophe], and so when the general public asks the question of a climber, i'd suggest, they are using the climber as a proxy for themselves... because deep down inside they don't know why a summiteer of everest should be given accolades, at the same time that on a surficial level the accolades are always given by the same general public that is asking the question.
for climbers: it's a question of curiosity... if you actually enjoy climbing, usually you do it for the experience of the climb or maybe the aesthetics of the line... obviously ascending the normal route involving a conga line of 200 people sliding their ascenders up a fixed line while weaving through miles of teetering seracs, has neither of those things... and so as actual climbers one has to ask: at this point in history, given the methods, what in gge is the point of climbing everest via the normal route? at the same time, for a climber it's obvious to most of us what would be sweet about climbing cero torre, foraker, etc. so again, no need to ask the question.
which then leads us full circle back to the first question from the general public... because it's obvious that most people climbing the normal route on everest, for the most part can't, at this point in history, be doing it for the process, it must therefore be a desire for some ends... and given there is no money, nor no "certification", all that one is left with is the check in the box, as it were... the check in the box that the general public gives some degree of significance to, while, i'd argue, at the same time they themselves don't know what the reason for that significance might be...
to cut to the chase, the madness at the heart of all of this, is to me, evidence of the unhinged and ungrounded, purely expansion based essence of contemporary western human organization.
once the system tells itself that there is grounds for control, all it can do is continue to simulate past successes in order to reassure itself that it, or at least someone leading the system, is in fact, in control.
collectively therefore we climb everest for the same reason that all human sacrifices throughout history have been made...
it is because the gods must be appeased...
and in our case, the god of contemporary western human organization is a belief in pure unadulterated authority and its commensurate grounds for control...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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May 23, 2016 - 01:48am PT
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For most, it is oxygeneering. But for some, like Loretan and Troillet who climbed the technical north face in a push, it is an amazing challenge and accomplishment. So it depends...
Can't say there was ever much appeal for me, but probably would have been pretty cool pre-1990 (only about 200 people climbed it between 1980-1989, now that many people summit on a single day--what a nuthouse it must be up there these days!)
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 23, 2016 - 06:41am PT
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More carnage on top of the world.
How about Why cheat on Everest ?
Oxygen, Fixed ropes , a huge
Supporting cast ...
"By fair means " is no longer part of the
math.
Sad but inevitable how money runs the
show .
Paying clients who have made the top via
these methods must have a hollow
victory indeed.
Next year is fully booked!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Boise, ID or the fricken Bakken, variously
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May 23, 2016 - 12:44pm PT
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I still maintain that is there no "everest".....only chomolungma
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2016 - 01:15pm PT
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Of those who summit, yet criticise the 'circus', how many of 'em don't bother asking Miss Hawley or the NMA/CMA for a certificate?
None that I know of, while a few who didn't climb it and some other 8,000 m. peaks have claimed to and been denied by Miss hawley.
the madness at the heart of all of this, is to me, evidence of the unhinged and ungrounded, purely expansion based essence of contemporary western human organization.
I presume this is a critique of capitalism with its stress on competition, survival of the fittest, and winner take all? If so, I agree that is part of the reason.
Interesting also how every time there is a major tragedy there, more people sign up the next year. If you can die doing it, then surviving it makes you a bigger winner?
woman trying to prove vegans can do anything among three dead on everest
I remember Werner writing about a Japanese couple who died on El Cap with one of the factors thought to be the low calorie food they had which left them with little spare energy. I wonder if that was the case here? As far as I know, altitude sickness can happen to anyone no matter their diet or conditioning.
I wonder how long till we are over-saturated with 'firsts' and no longer care.
Yes, it will be interesting to see what the scene is in five to ten years.
Lhakpa Sherpa's husband sounds like dross. Did the, otherwise acclaimed gentile gentle, Sherpa in camp take him for a bit of a walk up around a corner to clear a few things-up?
I think everyone was so shocked when it happened and so focussed on getting her to the First Aid tent that they didn't know what to do. Not to mention, everyone including the police, are reluctant to get into a domestic dispute. The Sherpas were particularly compromised because her husband employed a lot of them.
And from me - thanks everyone for an interesting and thoughful discussion on the issues!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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May 24, 2016 - 04:34am PT
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Dunno why anyone would want to climb Everest
Tried the expedition thing twice, did not enjoy it
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 24, 2016 - 06:15am PT
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I do, however, credit an old Everest documentary narrated by Orson Wells as perhaps my first real motivation to check out mountain climbing. The long pan of the ridge with that epic voice intoning: "Higher...higher...higher..." My adolescent, testosterone addled brain ate that sh#t up! Now, almost 40 years later, still lusting after ascents, although Everest was never really on my to-do list.
So, have at it, Everest "climbers." Watch out for the turds and cadavers.
BAd
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Adventurer
Mountain climber
Virginia
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May 24, 2016 - 07:28am PT
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CONGRATULATIONS!!! On 23 May, Melissa Arnot became the first American woman to summit Everest without the use of supplemental oxygen. A truly tremendous achievement!!
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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May 24, 2016 - 08:24am PT
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I used to live with Andy Harris and his partner Fiona in Methven (SI, NZ) when I worked for Methven Heliski. We shared a house for several winters and I also knew Harold (aka Andy) very well having worked together for DOC at Mt Cook and at Alpine Guides during the summer. We started at DOC the same year and lived at Desolation Row.
For those of you that don't know Harold, he was the guide that when back up to the South Summit to search for Rob Hall and lost his life.
I also knew Rob Hall very well having climbed with him in Arthurs Pass and later at Mt Cook. One of our most fun trips was taking a DJ (James Daniels)to the top of Mt Cook and running the breakfast show live. Lydia B. was on that trip as well. It was a great fundraiser for Rob and a lot of fun. At the end of the day he was in such a haste to get back to Christchurch he drove over my pack and wrecked a bunch of gear.
I've never been able to come to any resolution about Rob's et al tragedy. It is still a deep wound and to see these same sorts of things happen time and time again is really painful. Why don't people learn.
I was asked years ago to guide in Nepal and I decided that if I had problems looking after myself at the top of Denali then there was no way to could fully provide client safety on the big E.
By the time of that first accident I had already retired from Alpine guiding and was doing two helicopter ski seasons a year. That seemed pretty safe until I was involved in three helicopter accidents and decided that it was time to get out of it for good...
I went back to school and finished a computer science degree and have been working in IT since then. Being a weekend warrior has some benefits.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 24, 2016 - 11:28am PT
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I do, however, credit an old Everest documentary narrated by Orson Wells as perhaps my first real motivation to check out mountain climbing. The long pan of the ridge with that epic voice intoning: "Higher...higher...higher..."
I think that was about the 1963 American expedition. I remember another line about Whittaker and Nawang Gombu summitting together: 'the big man from the west and the little man from the east'. Interesting that, despite the logistics of such a big, national expedition, the task of climbing itself seemed far more basic.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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May 24, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
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When I was in my 20's I had a fascination with Everest and in my early climbing days I was quite sure I would eventually go throw my cap into the ring someday. The audacity of the project, the adventure of being in a wild land and being an astronaut in a wild and foreign landscape danced in my imagination. Images like this fueled my desire.
Now, images like this make it about as appealing as going to prison for a month. Seriously. All the magic is gone when you add those hoardes of people.
Bums me out a bit. But hey, there are plenty of routes on the mountain I guess. Everest The Hard Way? No thanks. I'm a pansy I suppose. I'll let Russians or Hungarians or Slovaks head up there.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2016 - 01:02pm PT
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John Mac, that whole episode in 1996, especially with Rob Hall still haunts me as well. I know it's against orthodoxy but I think when Rob Hall could do nothing more to help the dying, he should have come down for the sake of his unborn child.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 24, 2016 - 07:21pm PT
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Last photo of Mallory and Irvine
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 24, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
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An off topic post, but welcome back, Skully!
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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May 24, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
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does china permit climbs from the north? seems you could bypass all that nonsense by approaching from Tibet. many of the best routes are there anyway
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Psilocyborg
climber
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May 24, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
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There are lots of boring people with stupid reasons to climb everest
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 25, 2016 - 10:59am PT
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That image of the Hillary Step could be a metaphor for the Planet not too long from now.
The day will probably come when many will welcome strife if not war - perhaps in the form of WB's tactical nuke here and there - as a culling mechanism.
There are worse places. Google Manila slums.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 25, 2016 - 11:02am PT
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That image of the Hillary Step could be a metaphor for the Planet.
Kind of what I was thinking.
I feel this way about surfing sometimes. So many f-ing dudes out. Does anybody work anymore????
The whole world feels like one big cluster fuk. At least So-Cal anyways ;)
I need to liquidate and move to someplace I can isolate better.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 25, 2016 - 11:03am PT
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That picture of Mallory and Ervine showing tents that today a boyscout wouldn't use harkened back to a time when climbing Everest was the real deal.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 25, 2016 - 11:21am PT
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Interesting juxtaposition of photos of Everest and the Chilkoot Trail. I kind of share micronut's sentiment. I was thinking of who would want to pay $50K to go through that and it occurred to me that it's only someone who doesn't know any better or is simply willing to make the experience completely subservient to the goal of reaching the summit. Stewart made an interesting point with his last Kashung Face photo, which for me, distills the subject. People want to climb it for all kind of reasons. Some of them might be good; perhaps none of them are. However, I'm far more interested in the quality of the experience--the quality of the climbing, my partners, the beauty of where I'm at--than any summit.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 25, 2016 - 11:57am PT
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We didn't see any other people for 8 weeks.
Ha ha
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 25, 2016 - 01:01pm PT
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I wonder how those fixed lines even hold all those people tugging on them?
Looks the they could all just topple like dominoes and go skittering off all together.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 25, 2016 - 03:49pm PT
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Seeing Paul's photos of the Kangshung Face, and comparing them to the earlier-posted photos of the massive lines of human ants inching their guided way up the mountain is amazing.
To get a sense of just how different that Kangshung climb was from the modern feakshow, you can start with Stephen Venables' account in the Alpine Journal here: http://www.alpinejournal.org.uk/Contents/Contents_1989-90_files/AJ%201989%201-8%20Venables%20Kangshung.pdf
And Paul, if you'd been in Italy in (I think) about 1992, at the Montagne Avventure Due Mille event in Florence, you'd have seen Ed Webster and Kurt Diemberger trying to shake hands. That had to be one of the strangest sights in mountaineering history.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 26, 2016 - 08:20am PT
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Wow.... I've never seen that many people queued on the trench route on Rainier.
Imagine standing in line at 28,000.... wtf... Not only are you pissed off, but slowly dying.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2016 - 09:15am PT
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Whose messed up feet are those Stewart?
And in answer to the question about climbing the north side. The Chinese keep much more control on things on that side than the Nepalese government does. Not to mention they sometimes cancel the season for political reasons after people have already book flights and then lose thousands.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 26, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
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I took Chad on his first ice climbs in the Ouray Ice Park. He was hooked immediately and went right down to Ouray Mountain Sports to gear up.
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splitter
Trad climber
HighwayToHell
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May 26, 2016 - 03:11pm PT
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Props: Chad J, Chad B, Charlie L & The Heroes Project/Tim M!!!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Stephen Venables ~ To The Top: The Story Of Everest
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
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May 26, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
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Dingus
That is not Half Dome hike. its Everest and to me, if you hike it all by yourself to the top and back to base, you got my respect. john krakauer is always an as8hole
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2016 - 07:21pm PT
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Cory Richards, from Boulder climbed Everest on Monday without oxygen. His partner had to turn around.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
PUAKO, BIG ISLAND Kohala Coast
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May 27, 2016 - 03:10am PT
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I'm just bitter about it all!
If you need- a guide to climb a mtn, a heli to ski or board a new line, a f'n blow up vest to surf a double plus overhead wave, a parachute to solo, you must question whether you should be doing what your doing? What happened to style?
Mountaineers on EPO setting speed and summit records, big f'n farce. I know of a dude whom a Boulder Colorado Doctor put on EPO three months out from an Everest attempt, he then won all the local mtb races when he came home. Really...
RG rambling
Aloha
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Stone Cowboy
Trad climber
Livermore, CA.
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May 27, 2016 - 04:55am PT
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i appreciate folks who follow their passions to climb.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2016 - 07:04am PT
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RobertL, I wonder if you have ever been to a really poor third world country? It is of course hard to imagine how difficult their lives are compared to ours unless you've been there. For the record, the World Bank says that the per capita income of a person in Nepal is only $730. That's right, seven hundred dollars a year. A person living below the poverty line in the U.S. makes more than that in a couple of weeks. http://data.worldbank.org/country/nepal
Even a dirt bagger arrives in Nepal having paid two years of Nepalese income just for the plane ticket, carrying gear worth at least another year's income, pays for the Nepalese climbing fee which even divided among many people on the cheapest expeditions, is worth another several years of income, and then spends at least another ten years of income even on the cheapest expeditions. Imagine how well it goes over with the locals for said dirt bagger to then complain that he or she is being charged an outrageous amount by the locals.
Nepalese owned companies charge less and pay less. Otherwise they could never get their foot in the door. Of course that will change over time and then people from the first world will complain about that. The people who will scream the loudest are the western companies who have made millions off of Nepal's mountains. Some of them have acted responsibly and some have not. Many Sherpa widows have been left with nothing except $10,000 life insurance. Many Sherpas have risked their lives to save foreigners and as they put it, "We are promised big bonuses on the way to the summit, and in base camp, all that is forgotten. When we ask about it in base camp, they just fly away in a helicopter".
The guides in Chamonix don't undercut each other because they have a hard won union and live in a country with legal protections enforced by an honest government. Their struggle to establish themselves more than a hundred years ago was not easy either. That's why the Compagnie des Guides de Chamonix iand other guide associations in Europe are sponsoring Sherpas to become internationally certified mountain guides.
While many western guides may get a buzz from helping people to connect with the mountains and experience the liveliness of adventure, so too most Sherpas who often develop lifelong friendships with their clients. In addition Sherpas are out to help their extended families and communities, build up their country, and overcome the legacy of colonialism and paternalism in that part of the world. If you want to compare who has purer motives and shares their wealth with more people, I'll bet on Sherpas every time.
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JerryA
Mountain climber
Sacramento,CA
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May 27, 2016 - 07:56am PT
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John Fischer thought the Himalayas in the 1960s were the good -old-days & I now think that the 1990s were. Must be something to that?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 27, 2016 - 08:22am PT
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Jan, I liked your post to Robert and agree with you. Never will you find a better example of the economic interplay between the First World and the Third World.
The Sherpas are from one of the poorest countries while most clients are among the financial elite from the richest countries.
Is Everest worth climbing? It appears to be worth whatever people are willing to pay. Everest will always attract people because of it's status as the highest place on earth. Many of these people are not climbers in the strictest sense but they have the time and money to participate in the ultimate adventure reality game. And their participation is made possible ONLY because of the the part played by the sherpas.
I, for one, would never participate in a climb where underpaid "servants" (can you think of a better word?) pitched my tent, cooked my meals and fixed my ropes.
It's high time that sherpas obtained pay commensurate with their work....fixing ropes thru the Khumbu Icefall is arduous, dangerous work that requires high levels of skill and experience. Maybe highly paid western guides should do their share of it.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 27, 2016 - 09:10am PT
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None of the big mountains in Asia have been climbed
without the help of the local populations.
I agree with Jim ,let the western geeds spend
some time fixing the icefall.
Edit : Jan , yes that's Venables foot
Years after Everest.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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May 27, 2016 - 04:53pm PT
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Most here would agree that climbing, in whatever focus we choose, is more about the sense of experiencing the place, the movement, the partners, and less about the achievement/checklist. Everest, as with every sort of Biggest, Greatest, Hardest, etc. was always different, drawing certifiable non-climbers to their demise decades before the first real climbers managed it. It is still the Token pinnacle recognized by the greatest number of non-climbers, and so is a target for a vast variety of reasons outside those given for climbing the Nose, or the thousands of harder but obscure routes - about the same number of people have climbed the Thimble unroped as have reached the depths of the Mariannas Trench, for what it's worth. The majority of Everest climbers want the recognition of Hillary and Norgay, but without freely admitting the route is hardly a climb but a grueling, prolonged sufferfest. Using Everest as a means of personal achievement is an oxymoron, as most depend on scores of Sherpas, guides, and support team for any chance at success. Sherpas may need the money, but for Westerners guiding it is a mercenary act, taking big bucks from clients you know could never summit or even survive without you, and who probably share little of the mountaineer's interests or instincts. Guts and drive are admirable, especially when directed in constructive directions; as soon as Everest enters the picture, motivations get murky, and I'm not excluding amputees from that judgment.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 28, 2016 - 06:49am PT
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The locals were quite happy to help
Not too many come through Kharta
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2016 - 09:28am PT
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Quite a sight! I'll bet the folks in Kharta are still talking about those crazy foreigners.
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Michael Browder
Mountain climber
Chamonix, France (Oregon originally)
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May 28, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
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It's amazing how little almost everyone on Supertopo knows about climbing on Everest, guided or otherwise. Listen to Robert L. He knows the score. I like Vitally's comments as well. But even Robert understates the case: the kindness and mountain spirit of Sherpa/Sherpani is not just somewhat over-romanticized. It is totally over-romanticized.
And since some here for some strange reason have chosen to bring Chamonix into the discussion, they should consider the following which is well known: the Compagnie des Guides de Chamonix is not at all a great organization to be associated with, but for different reasons than working for or with certain groups or companies in Nepal, of course. Anyone that thinks the Compagnie des Guides is fantastic should look at why there are so many 'guide independent' services in the area. Many, many guides would NEVER work for them or with them under any circumstances. Really, though, discussion of the situation in Chamonix has no relevance to any situation on Everest.
BTW, Maya Sherpa is a great person and high altitude climber, but not really a guide no matter what publicity may come out saying otherwise.
And, yep, to try and forestall the usual comebacks to me from you all, I've been a lot in the area, and I've been to and lived in other really really poor countries in Asia as well. I am continually amazed by how much even western workers in these places romanticize locals. They are just people, some better, some worse. Amazing how many elite climbers that some of you idolize have had problems with some of the Sherpas in Nepal while being close friends with others, for example. Some sherpas are real jerks and cannot accept that others may have superior skills, knowledge, or even physiology.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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May 28, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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Using Everest as a means of personal achievement is an oxymoron, as most depend on scores of Sherpas, guides, and support team for any chance at success
So if I climb ElCap, there is no personal achievement since I relied on a well trod route, I had a partner on the climb, I had mentors in the past, and I relied on a bevy of high-tech equipment without which I never would have gotten off the ground.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2016 - 09:19pm PT
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I agree, some Sherpas are real jerks. The issue here however, is the discrepancy between the economic opportunities of themselves and their clients, as well as the discrepancies between western individualism personified by western climbers, and the more collective tribal consciousness of the Sherpas, and how that all plays out for people who have bucket lists to climb Everest.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 29, 2016 - 06:32am PT
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The issue here is people claiming
To have climbed Everest without
O2 ( mr Cory Richards and ms Arnot)
Whilst jugging fixed ropes to the top installed by
Sherpas using 02 not to mention
Supported by a string of camps and
A huge cast !
Nothing new here as this was done 38
Years ago.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 29, 2016 - 07:31am PT
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Yikes August West.....apples vs. oranges in your analogy with El Cap....big difference between sherpa support and depending on a partner who has taken the time to develop similar SKILLS to yours to succeed on El Cap.
Many climb Everest with massive sherpa support and guides who have never developed much in the way of climbing or mountaineering skills.....they have relied on their checkbooks.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 29, 2016 - 09:14am PT
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Why climb Everest? So you can hang out with the cool crowd!
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 29, 2016 - 11:39am PT
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Two Sherpa guides for every
Client .
50,000$ please!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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May 29, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
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Looks like the high altitude alpine version of the Hal Dome cable route...
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 29, 2016 - 04:17pm PT
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We brought two bottles of oxygen to
Base camp for emergency.
And several bottles of Good booze!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2016 - 05:42pm PT
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Whatever the other controversies, I say Stewart has the most entertaining Everest photos.
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john hansen
climber
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May 29, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
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I don't think Paul aka Stewart , was any where near an existing route.
New route on the biggest face with a small team . Doubt they left much on the route. That was a team of very experienced climbers.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 30, 2016 - 09:00am PT
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Exellent critique Mr L!
I'm just trying to point out that
Everest offers real climbing for normal
Climbers, or at least it did.
I never claimed our acsent was "pure"
and yes, S Venables did use an old fixed
rope on the Hillary step. And yes we
Trashed the mountain by leaving
our fixed ropes behind. And three
Small tents etc .
If you've read the account you know we
were in survival mode.
I've already stated no big mountains
in Asia have been climbed without help
from the local populations.
Even R Messners solo acsent was
Aided by a few Tibetan yak drivers etc.
We had the entire village of Khartse
Help us get to the mountain
And these same people helped us
Get back to Khartse.
I'm not sure if you are familiar with
Climbing in Tibet but the Chinese are
In charge of paying the locals.
It's 2016 and with all those people on
The two routes in Nepal and Tibet
One would hope that anyone
Trying to be special by not using 02
Would also show the ability to move
About without fixed ropes and camps is
Just wishful thinking on my part, my bad.
As far as myself, a bad headache and
a bunch of vomiting was a warning for
me to descend ASAP from the south col
The morning after our first night there.
An uneventful 8 hour descent was one
Of the best days on the hill for me .
I went on to make three more attempts
in the next few years without attaining
the top.
How many days have you spent on
Everest mr L?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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May 30, 2016 - 01:35pm PT
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Yikes August West.....apples vs. oranges in your analogy with El Cap....big difference between sherpa support and depending on a partner who has taken the time to develop similar SKILLS to yours to succeed on El Cap.
Many climb Everest with massive sherpa support and guides who have never developed much in the way of climbing or mountaineering skills.....they have relied on their checkbooks.
It wasn't intended as a direct analogy. But I was calling BS that getting to the top of Everest isn't a "personal accomplishment". They could have a national park service trail, complete with ice-free, metal steps (and a handrail, don't forget the handrail), and a mountain hut every 1000' with food, drink, and beds... And it would still be a huge, personal accomplishment for most people to get to the top.
Is hiking to the top of Half Dome not a personal accomplishment because the Park Service put up a cable?
Is doing the Nose invalid because I relied on my checkbook to buy the latest, fanciest gear?
Ok, on less of a rant:
If people don't want to be part of the zoo that is Everest, more power to them. Like most things, I'm sure it could be improved. But I don't see the inherent problem with having a "helping hand" (paid or otherwise) take you where you wouldn't otherwise be able to go. And I don't see the need to denigrate them for what they have accomplished.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
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Along these lines I note that Stewart Johnson above who did a new technical and dangerous route in alpine style on Everest suddenly developed altitude sickness at the South Col after already spending a couple months above 15,000 feet. Unless you've been to those altitudes, you have no idea of the challenge presented by them even on a well trodden and fixed rope path.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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May 30, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
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I don't want to discourage people sharing rad adventures by pointing my weak and crooked finger at 'em
But that is exactly what you are doing.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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May 30, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
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The sudden development of altitude sickness even when one is relatively acclimatized can often be attributed to carbon monoxide poisoning. The symptoms are almost identical. CO is produced very rapidly by camp stoves in a tent, and there's so little oxygen at really high altitudes that it takes only a minor amount of CO to snaffle up your margin.
I suspect a lot of altitude sickness in the high mountains are actually CO poisoning or a combination of CO and altitude. And the end result can be the same with either.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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May 30, 2016 - 06:38pm PT
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Good point, fossil. I've wondered whether mild, undiagnosed sleep apnea might contribute to the develpment of altitude sickness.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 30, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
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Kangshung face alpine style?
If you were thoroughly acclimated, it's
Totally possible. But what then? Get in line?
I was lucky enough to go to
Everest before the entire guiding
circus ruined the mountain for real climbers.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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May 30, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
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how it can be. white limbo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XLpGC_1Am0 etc
funny accents, funnier synthesizers, great hats, good style. even their idea of fixed ropes is kinda cool.
sh#t, in this day hardly anyone is interested in climbing new 5000m lines, let alone +8000m ones. but thats cool. that sh#t never will be for everyone.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2016 - 07:38am PT
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I don't think I was mislead in my impression of Stewart's climbing. Rather, there is no particular word to describe what they did. It was not alpine climbing European style but it was also not seige climbing in the style of the many British expeditions to Everest. While they did have porters to the base of the climb, they did it all on their own once they left the ground. Therefore I think semi alpine better describes it than semi siege. Nowadays that would even be hard to pull off, given the reputation of the Kharta people for going on strike and trying to extort higher wages a couple of days out, even with threats of violence. Most Nepalese Sherpas say that because of these recurrent troubles, they would not work on that side anyway.
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2016 - 07:43am PT
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they did it all on their own once they left the ground.
LOL Jan
Please take no offense.
I just thought it was funny.
What you really meant is once they left base camp?
In order to climb Everest one must leave the ground and float ..... :-)
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 31, 2016 - 11:16am PT
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Interesting thread in general. As a lot of other people, I have thought about significance of ascents, style, first ascents, difficult climbing, runouts etc etc for a while. Interesting topic to think about. Some ascents are glorified, some are completely trashed within the community, some are given way more attention in the media than others, depending who the athlete knows, who is sponsoring an athlete, how much do they share, how colorful can they make the experience sound and how much dirt is kept secret.
What it all comes down to really is people are people. Some are honest, some not, some nice, some not. We often see imperfections in others, yet don't want to admit own shortcomings. People often repress own negative thoughts and attributing them to someone else.
The climbs could seem intense on paper or with description, but if you get into it all, it makes sense. Unless suicidal, an individual does not get far out from their comfort zone on any climb. Yes we often feel exposed, remote, far from help, challenged by difficulties, maybe even in positions bailing out of which would be VERY hard but usually due to unexpected events (stuck/cut ropes, unexpected weather, rockfall, avalanche).
With time in the mountains skills and comfort level allows some to attempt harder climbs, which feel as giant of an adventure for someone with inferior skills and less comfort level who is attempting an easier in comparison route (guided or not). When I personally climbed Mt. Whitney by Mountaineer's Route in winter, I think I was more out of my comfort zone than when climbing a route rated ED on Chacraraju. Well maybe not, my general point is that with little experience easy climbs still feel like giant adventures that take one out of the comfort zone. I don't think the Kangshung face was more exciting for the members than an attempt on the regular route for some person who doesn't really climb mountains - those people think of that climb as the hardest thing possible for a human. Very subjective experiences no? It is interesting how thousands of feet of fixed (and left) ropes did not get mentioned over the years with frequent posts about the incredible adventure. Survival mode is what pretty much every expedition doing a giant siege-style ascent on giant mountains are in, when they are descending. Unless a small team brought 2 or 3 ropes, who would want to collect thousands of feet of it from fixed snow anchors on the way down after a very draining summit attempt or whatever? You have people in the Valley leaving trash on El Cap and paying locals to hike their ropes down from the top and that is an EASY, straight forward descent in comparison to ANY big mountain. Point of the rant is NOT put down ascents in any style, I honestly think people doing them are pushing their limit VERY close to the brink, to death in many cases. The number of deaths on the regular route of Everest, or even Mt. Shasta is proof that sh#t does get real for many there and there are plenty of reasons to respect their climb. Much more than to respect empty yapping on the internet at least. The amount of work, suffering and skill that goes into the big siege climbs takes years of preparation and much more. People should do their best to protect the environment, but when one is bringing thousands of feet of rope with plans to fix it on a big mountain, there is little hope it will me taken down. It is easy to say all should climb alpine style in small teams, yet climbing is not about defining style for OTHER people, as individuals we can control own practice. Important to remember whatever we do, it is not perfect, especially when put under the criticism of a peanut gallery. As long as humans stay humans, we will not be perfect.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 31, 2016 - 11:43am PT
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Whatever anyone is doing on the snow and ice today beats where I am working for the man....
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 31, 2016 - 09:00pm PT
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Interesting Vitals !
If You think that a client jugging the yak way
Is getting as much of a buzz as normal
climbers pushing a new route with four
people on the K face? get real youth.
"Four people?Kangshung face? Your mad, go climb
a smaller mountain" these were the words from
Dr Charles Houston the worlds leading high
altitude expert before we left home.
Encouraging words considering the two previous
Expeditions to the K face had twenty crack climbers
With oxygen . it took them two attempts spaced out
Over three years to produce Everests hardest
And most amazing climb!
We were prepared to do whatever it takes
By whatever means at our disposal to get the job done
There is no chance of any help whatsoever
on Everests backside.
Dude,get on the plane.
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cotuclimber
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 31, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
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Over three years to produce Everests hardest
And most amazing climb!
Have you done them all? There are other hard routes on the mountain.
In no way do I want to put down the climb you guys did, but the mention of a small team does not portray the whole picture as discussed up the thread. It was a big expedition with a lot of fixed rope. Difference between your expedition and those on the main route seem to be the fixing of lines was done by actual team members, not Sherpas. Own route finding and objective danger seems significant.
How much money did a trip like that cost and how much was provided by sponsors? Not that I will make a trip like that work with the current health issues I have now, but still curious.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Cotuclimber, going to Everest through Tibet is expensive.
Perhaps 180,000$ at least !
Robert
Of course leaving stuff on the mountain
Is bad .
In my opinion guiding on E is also bad.
Can you brief us on the state of the routes you guide?
One would hope your guided trips have
A cash reserve for cleaning your climb
After your done. Where does the trash
And poop you carry down end up?
Do you bring it back to Kdu?
Or does it stay in Tibet ?
I know on the Nepal side they have a system for rubbish.
It's gotta be allot of stuff !
I mean you've got some really large teams going up.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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If You think that a client jugging the yak way
Is getting as much of a buzz as normal
climbers pushing a new route with four
people on the K face? get real youth.
You misunderstood me there. Being a mountain climbing noob on Everest one must be completely overwhelmed and pushing their own acceptable limits of risk, right? As experienced climbers you guys are way more secure with the environment and risk assessment, so although taking on a much harder objective, the amount of fear you experience compared to those on the regular route may actually be less. Or similar. My point is about the experience of adventure being VERY subjective. It is hard for you to relate to their experience as you were never in their shoes, climbing real sh#t has been your passion for ages.
I am having a hard time understanding why critique Melissa Arnot and Cory Richards for claiming an Everest summit without supplemental oxygen (only because they used ropes set up by those who used supplemental oxygen), when personally you guys went to that mountain with plans of fixing several thousand feet of ropes with help of a whole village to get the stuff to basecamp. "Whatever it takes." In addition, those who actually completed the route to the top used the fixed lines on regular route to get down. Before critiquing others consider the shitshow YOUR expedition left on the mountain. Has there been an expedition on the peak that left as much fixed rope in the 90s and 2000s? I mean it is cool you attempted the face, but your personal climb was never completed, Paul, so maybe it is you who should jump on the plane and avoid insulting those who did actually SEND? LOL :)
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Sure Vitaliy
I intend on purchasing the plane ticket
To return.
I think you should go over there also and
Go climbing in the Himalaya that's all.
I know you would enjoy not to
Mention with your drive and ambition
You would get something big
Accomplished.
Like I said before I would hope in 2016
Everest climbers climbing without 02
Would also stay away from the yak
routes and try to really get up by
Thier own steam . wishful thinking on
My part .
Richards and Arnot are obviously
Super fit and talented climbers and
Taking a huge step in the right direction .
I was meaning no disrespect
Just getting the conversation going.
It's funny how the trends on E are.
Our route on the K face has been
Climbed a few times and attempted
A few times also
So I'm sure there's more crap
Up there now but there's so many
Avalanches and icefall I'm also sure
A majority of it has been swept to the
Bottom.
Here's a paper that you might enjoy
(Penned by John Hunt leader of the first acsent in 1953)
Or not that explains the 88 trip better
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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This whole climbing thing and pushing the limits is f*#king stupid. Because in the end, no one gives a sh#t but yourself, one that is doing it. The linked passage seems bogus.
This whole climbing thing and pushing the limits is f*#king shallow. In the end, no one gives a sh#t but yourself, one that is doing it. You, I, anyone else can post photos and write about the experience we had on a certain climb but no one will be able to relate to that exact experience as conditions of peaks change, the skills of the subjects are varied, the weather will vary etc etc. Hope to check out the Himalayas at some point. Climb something big or not, who gives a sh#t really...it is not like an individual climb will change the world for the better or worse. And that is not the point, for me anyway...
The linked passage seems bogus in more than one way.
"the sensation created by the first ascent of Mt. Everest in 1953 has been followed by numerous climbs on that mountain which have not been deemed worth a mention by the news media."
Does it really matter how much media attention each climb will get? The media attention is not an indication of superior style or difficulty of the climb.
"They attempted a route of unknown difficulty which they reviewed in a photograph taken from some distance."
WOAH, a new route of UNKNOWN DIFFICULTY?? That is a whole new ball game guys!! Till the 1988 expedition every team doing a NEW route KNEW the difficulty?! No one knows the difficulty of a new route...author seem to be making colorful statements and not mentioning a lot of related detail.
Photo of the Khumbu Icefall below (not mine). To an armchair judge, looks a lot harder to make a passage through that, than through the slopes in the middle of the Kangshung face. Must of been a real adventure finding a way through this mess on the first ascent...actually every new season, as the sh#t shifts so much from one season to next and even during the same season.
-photo from Wikipedia
"they had no support of Sherpa's, they employed a bare minimum of technical equipment.."
Aside from using the Sherpas to get all the technical gear and months worth of food TO the mountain and aside from five thousand feet of fixed (and left) rope, I guess it was a very little expedition. Pun intended. What other technical equipment would one want up there? A bulldozer? As compared to the big modern expeditions, you guys did not have wifi, which is kind of lame I guess. :) I would be able to appreciate the article more if the author kept it real. Bottom line is, no one but you, the individual, would be able to relate to how hard did that ascent push you as an individual, along with your mates.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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That picture of Mallory and Ervine showing tents that today a boyscout wouldn't use harkened back to a time when climbing Everest was the real deal.
Always liked this photo of Norton. What a place to be.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Only had one Sherpa / Sidar with us Vitals . He was our cook and
Main man.Pasang Norbu Sherpa , he did not climb and he stayed in basecamp .
Yak herders from Khartse did the grunt work to base camp
And another 9 guys made the carry to abc
I never said alpine style or really anything about style.
I'll have to mention that R. Messner has stated several times
That "the K face 88 was the best acsent of Everest in terms of style and
Adventure"
I myself don't really agree with that .
Nevertheless I'm quite proud of our climb and wanted to show
That there is a backside to Everest far removed from the circus
That we see on the south col route.
Lots of big seracs looming over your head on the Neverest buttress .
Honestly I think more like 3000 ft of rope fixed
We had good intentions to remove the ropes but freshly frost bitten climbers
Don't work so well
There's a reason Sherpa Don't like,
It's more dangerous and no helicopter etc . : ^ /
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cotuclimber
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Thank you for the reply Stewart. 80k would be the total for an expedition of four with the cost of the permit and porters included? Without it being part of a guided trip, correct? Most climbers would have trouble paying for logistics, unless financed by a third party, partially at least.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Ha ha I said 180000$
That was in 1988
God knows what the Chinese charge now!
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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My ice climbing buddy did Everest as part of a guided trip about 6 years ago. He went for double oxygen and did the summit wearing his ice climbing clothing, no down suit used.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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He went for double oxygen
Double the flow of O2? Like 4L/min instead of 2 or whatever their rate is?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Paul, can you PLEASE post some sort of a TR about your expedition to the North ridge of K2?? I read the article about it and it made me want to hang out with you or go on an expedition! :)
http://blog.oregonlive.com/terryrichard/2009/02/portland_climbing_film_event_h.html
"Best friends Gill James and Paul Teare -- I called them the Tahoe Terrors because they are from Tahoe City, Calif. -- were the live wires of the expedition because of their raucous behavior. During the endless mornings that we were stuck in bad weather at base camp, they would show up at the cook tent before anyone else was awake and crow like roosters. And this was when they were sober."
Pure gold. Makes me smile years after I read about it. Bwahahaha
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Ok Great stuff Robert
I'm familiar with the Nepalese side
Sounds like they have a good system
What happens on the north side?
Do the Chinese use a similar system?
When I was there in 1993 not much was
Going on in that regard.
And Vitaliy, The k2 trip was lots of fun...
Interesting part of the world.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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thanks for your contributions to this thread Robert L...
you've posted a lot of insightful things and as such i've appreciated having your voice on here...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2016 - 07:12am PT
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And now they're coming here!
Sherpas from Rolwaling are just departing for the Cassin Ridge on Denali. They are the three who did three 6,000 meter first ascents in three days this past year and the leader is a ten times Everest summiter.
It will be really interesting to follow their adventures in a very different place and style than they are used to. If anyone's interested, here's the website.
http://www.firstascenttashi.com/
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Here’s hoping the Sherpas have a great time!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Damn! The bros gots some moves! 🤪
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
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Everest is called " The mother of all gods"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2018 - 08:38pm PT
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Majid-
That is an incorrect title however and one first given to it by western climbers. It is also not the mother goddess of the earth as westerners now commonly refer to it.
Chomo = female goddess
Lung = countryside
Ma = female or mother
This title refers to the goddess Miyolangsangma (Goddess of Prosperity) who is one of five sister goddesses residing in the Himalayas and not the most important one. She has however, brought great prosperity to the Sherpas in her region (Lung) known as Khumbu.
The most important goddess is her elder sister, Tashi Tseringma (Lucky Long Life Mother) who is always at the center of religious depictions and always the largest to show her importance. She resides on Tseringma Khangri, better known to the outside world as Gauri Shankar. It is a fact that fewer Sherpas from this region have been killed in the mountains per capita than Sherpas from other regions including Khumbu.
Here is a photo of their mandala. They are always depicted in the same positions wearing the same colors and riding the same animals. They are often depicted with a Tibetan saint named Milarepa who converted them from paganism to Buddhism. He is usually painted green since he subsisted for many years on wild nettles.
Tashi Tseringma in the center with snow white skin and riding a snow lion.
Miyolangsangma is in the upper left with yellow skin and riding a tiger.
Milarepa is in the Heavens above surrounded by his rainbow body, signifying that he became fully enlightened.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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You should tell them the story about Tilopa and Milarepa.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
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I'll let you do that. :)
I thought he was also called the Kukor Raja but I can't find any reference to that?
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Trump
climber
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So Everest is called mother of all gods and mother goddess of the earth, just maybe not by the natives? Maybe westerners misunderstood what the natives called it, or what they believed about it?
Seems like a pretty normal way for a name to evolve. If the mountain was originally named by humans based on a misunderstanding of the godly spiritual nature of the rock, and now it’s gotten a different title based on another misunderstanding of other people’s misunderstandings, well that just seems to be the way the game is played.
While on the subject of misunderstanding reality in our favor, I’m strangely inclined to agree with an earlier comment that those shallow Everest climbers probably don’t do it for the deeply held personal reasons that we noble climbers engage in our righteous pursuits. Ho boy. What I really need is a self-bullshit detector, but all I came equipped with is this others-bullshit detector.
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