Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2016 - 04:22am PT
|
It's 2016, things change, lot of rust showing on this thread.
Have few minutes to do more than quip. It is 2016, but "things" (rock, cams and nuts) don't change - people and their behavior change, and in this specific case I think to their individual and collective detriment.
Yet again, if you're talking just the province of crack climbing on splitters, sure, the idea and transition might seem natural. But the idea that a cam is always the solution and passive is passe in climbing across the board - mindlessly stupid, reckless for the average cross-over, and irresponsible if someone is encouraging it.
That people with advanced skillsets, a wealth of experience and a preference for climbing cracks would adopt the strategy is great, that you dismiss the criticism of the trend with a 'meh' seems a bit blind. When was the last time you climbed with a newish trad leader who wasn't already an incredibly strong and / or accomplished sport climber who can weather the transition on a combination of good and sketch cams with minimal risk?
I do all the time and it can be quite eye-opening with regard to the trend. So the idea that folks leaving the ground with just cams (which are seldom extended) is a net positive for climbing seems seems either detached or deluded.
But sure, dudes back when were way smarter and had huge sack. That was the point of the thread right?
Not sure how you managed to take that away from my original post, but that has nothing to do with it other than possibly a tenuous correlation to the fact the demographic long ago outstripped the "back when" mentoring system leaving most kids to wing the transition to trad climbing. Nothing 'smarter' about it or 'dumber' about the lack of a proper introduction to the appropriate use of pro.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2016 - 04:37am PT
|
fuggit, I've been climbing forever (as long as many of you) so I can't tell you if Any thing was Store bought, booty that was 'new' got racked-up & put to good use, but I know how to use what ever I've got. including a hammer and nails , oops pins ya' all still remember the song; clear ring, not over driven...
As a ringtone for a phone ... that would be great
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2016 - 04:42am PT
|
Gnome, man, using those "back when" original camalots is the essence of "huge sack". Had one disintegrate on me once in Edo back when and was glad to have it backed up with the small #2 titon that stopped me. Still gives me the willies just looking at them.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2016 - 04:47am PT
|
Yeah, it isn't sack, its poor judgment,
(I know the limitations, & try to never fall, remember that?)
and every thing gets backed up , not always equalized, but Im not
winning any awards for the old ways. As has been said, To teach what we have learned would be good, if anyone wanted to learn it.
Oh and I often just leap frog anything bigger than the 4frnd, I have 2 green #5 camalots that are also skinny lobes, they scare me, alone or together, so I stay close to them. It is aid,
but I live to pick the scabs.
and often swear off the awful width,
that comes naturally to short folk
when it gets wide I crawl inside...
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2016 - 12:34am PT
|
I think the count gets reset every fall.
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2016 - 10:09am PT
|
January 2016 issue Rock & Ice, P44 (yes I am behind in my reading)
See the picture of Leo Houlding on the first ascent of the 4000 foot route "Reflections", 5.12C, A3+ Mirror Wall Greenland. Nuts and cams on rack.
Great story BTW, much of the climbing very sketchy pro, or do-not-fall territory.
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2016 - 11:54am PT
|
I haven't bought a lot of gear in a while. I don't drool over the glass case with the latest goodies.
There must be some really cool cams if they will fit in the same crack that takes these:
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
|
Anyone who is arguing about whether to use cams or nuts, or tube chocks versus hammered 2x4 scraps, is SO last century.
Get with the program, or stop pretending to be current and trendy.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
|
What is the "normal" way people learn to lead and place gear?
For me, I had a mentor that took me top-roping a few times, and I learn the basics of making a natural pro top-rope anchor. Then I read Freedom of the Hills and just went out there and tried it with a less experienced partner who thought I knew what I was doing.
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2016 - 03:49pm PT
|
My younger brother and I read Basic Rockcraft and Advanced Rockcraft by Royal Robbins.
The two local climbers were in high school, and we were not, so they dismissed us as unworthy of their mentorship.
We just went out and started climbing on our own. We were able to buy the super-expensive gear because we had flunky jobs in the tourism industry.
Later, I learned a great deal by climbing in Yosemite with more experienced climbers.
It doesn't matter if you can do it, or if you can't do it.
Just do it anyway.
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2016 - 05:52pm PT
|
A wonderful way to get an eye an feel for placing gear is to go "gear placement bouldering" with an etrier. Place, clip, swing it around to see how stable it is, bounce on it - see what happens. You will have some surprises along the way and you will learn a ton. Learn how to remove efficiently. A quick and cheap education.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
|
What is the "normal" way people learn to lead and place gear?
I guess the "normal" way was to try them out and hope you didn't die in the process.
When nuts first showed up in the US around 1967, no one who hadn't been to the UK had a clue. We sent away for a bunch o' nuts from Joe Brown's store and started using them, at first in combination with pitons, which were still thought to be essential, especially in the back country, as the range of available nuts wasn't close to adequate.
Still, we were placing nuts and falling on them (not a lot by modern standards) and generally learning from our mistakes. Nut placement is pretty intuitive after all.
As with pitons, Chouinard changed the game by making a full range of stoppers and hexes in standardized size graduations. Before that, both nuts and pitons were produced helter-skelter by different manufacturers with virtually no attention to size graduation, or shape uniformity, so all we had was a hodge-podge of idiosyncratic shapes of various sizes.
The availability of an intelligent range of standard sizes and shapes brought on the day when Steve Wunsch (and soon after Henry Barber and John Bragg) just upped and proclaimed they weren't going to be carrying hammers or pitons any more.
John Stannard, after noting the piton destruction of Serenity Crack, followed suit by doing climbs in the Gunks at the cutting edge of difficulty of the day entirely on nuts, using Chouinard's small wires with finesse and expertise that I don't think has ever been surpassed. Stannard achieved that level of finesse by doing something no one else I know has ever done. He placed gear, made his assessments about how good it was, and then dropped weights to see how reality corresponded to his judgements.
So I guess the short answer to the question is trial and error as opposed to authoritative instruction, but it helped that the old-fashioned principles of trad climbing were still in effect, so that people's leading ability was closely correlated with their climbing ability, both of these coming along in parallel as a climber progressed. Now we have lots of people who can climb big numbers in the gym or in sport climbing, but who are beginners when it comes to gear placement and anchor rigging, and they are quite naturally interested in and capable of climbing at a level way beyond their protection skills.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!