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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 4, 2016 - 11:36am PT
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The fet brought this up on the 'best pro ever' thread. In his post he said:
After watching the current generation of top climbers mostly climb with nothing but cams I moved the nuts off my base rack.
I've personally watched this trend among sport crossovers over the past fifteen years with a pretty jaundiced eye if not a small amount of horror. Me? Man, if it comes down to a cam or a nut in a given placement it's going to be a nut every time and I use cams where nuts won't work. I find the 'cams-first' or 'cams-only' thing completely ass-backwards and incredibly misguided.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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I suppose using a cam is the logical "go to" when someone who only knows sport climbing is confronted with a crack.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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BD C4 #0.4: 83g, 10 Kn, $65
DMM WallNut #7: 40g, 12 Kn, $9
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Lots of places a nut is fast to place in a good constriction. I always feel better having a solid nut than a similar sized cam below me.
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HandCrack
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal.
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I can't say how many times I've seen a cam that has walked up a crack in a perfect constriction for a nut to the point where it is tipped out flopping around in place. Nothing makes me feel more secure than a good solid stopper.
Locker - you got some guacamole to go with those chips?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Cost and weight factor aside(aka the Gunks).... I'm reaching for springy-things mostly these days. Although there are still many cases where only a wedge will do.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I have moved into the direction of cams over nuts in the past several years for a few reasons but I always cary a set of off set nuts. Cams are faster to place, usually. Cams are easier to remove, usually. Unless you are carrying a set of hexes cams are the go to piece for hand size and larger cracks. Nuts are great and I trust a well placed nut more than a similar sized cam but I have found that when i climb with people who insist on using nuts they really yank on them to make sure they set and when the follower comes along and tries to clean it he spends a load of time trying to free the welded nut. I really get annoyed pissing time away trying to clean a welded nut when a cam would have worked just fine, I get it, You know how to place nuts, thats great but for the sake of time and before that thunderhead rolls over can you please place some cams instead?
I learned to climb with nuts before camping devices were around, I know how to use them, I aid climb which has made me even better at using nuts, but for pure free climbing I learned to get over myself and the whole salty trad climber persona and learned to embrace cams for what they are, fast, efficiant and safe when placed well.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2016 - 12:33pm PT
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...and learned to embrace cams for what they are, fast, efficient and safe when placed well.
Glad you qualified that statement.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I remember my insecurity of going from pins/nuts to just nuts in the early 1970's, but that was a matter of ethics, so I did everything I could to eliminate pins from the rack. In contrast, I find the issue of nuts/cams vs. just cams more a matter of flexibility.
I can usually find a faster placement with faster removal with a cam rather than a nut if the crack would accept either one. My main problem with an all cam rack, assuming the relevant cracks are wide enough, is that cams don't work well in placements where the crack widens as it rises, among others. I usually carry a few threadable Hexcentrics from about 3/4" to 1 1/2" with me, tied onto single-length runners. I realize the wired hexes don't allow you to do this, though.
I also find that nuts rack much more compactly than cams, so the nuts/cams rack seems less of an obstruction than a cams only one.
This is really just a long-winded way of saying that I seldom rack up with only cams, because I want to preserve my ability to place either a nut or cam, depending on which better fits my intended placement (sorry).
John
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I find a solid nut placement the most confidence inspiring pro there is, and think "I could hang a truck off of that" but really the advantage of cams is speed. It's generally quicker to place and clean a cam than a nut. If a climber is going up a 5.13 crack they don't want to stop and fiddle with a nut. They want to plug and go with a cam. And a cam generally fits more placements than a nut. So you take less time scouting the perfect placement or grabbing one of three cams that may fit in a stretch of rock, instead of having to find the one nut that will work in that one constriction.
I'll also add that it took a long time for me to eliminate the set of nuts from my rack. The first time for just one climb it probably went off on on three times before I left it on the ground. It took a few years before it was off more than its on. For lots of reasons mentioned above it's hard to leave the nuts. Compact, light, solid, works better than cams in many placements, and I'll always still take them if there's any chance I'll need to bail because cams are so expensive. But you can teach an old dog new tricks, and the speed and ease of cams makes them the go to pro for many.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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And "well placed" applies equally to cams and nuts.... I've cleaned and placed many horrible examples of both.
The thought that every nut placement is bomber is just silly.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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It also depends where you climb. The parallel sided cracks of Yosemite or the horizontal ones of the Gunks call for cams (or Tricams in the Gunks ). While the dike constricted cracks of lovers leap often love nuts.
I'll also add it wasn't watching sportos who didn't know how to use nuts that changed my thinking, it was watching some of the best climbers in the world doing cutting edge climbs.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
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The thought that every nut placement is bomber is just silly.
It isn't a matter of "every nut placement is bomber", it's a matter of given a good nut or a cam at any given location I'm going with the nut every time unless there's some extenuating circumstances.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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I've personally watched this trend among sport crossovers over the past fifteen years with a pretty jaundiced eye if not a small amount of horror. Me? Man, if it comes down to a cam or a nut in a given placement it's going to be a nut every time and I use cams where nuts won't work. I find the 'cams-first' or 'cams-only' thing completely ass-backwards and incredibly misguided.
I think the trend is fairly understandable, though. A nut today is pretty much the same as a nut from 30 years ago. Cams, on the other hand, have become lighter, stronger, more flexible and more utilitarian. I think for a new leader, they are also easier to place correctly.
Curt
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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There are pitches in the Gunks that I've led without placing a single cam, and others without placing a single nut.
Cams are of course the only game in town in many horizontals, but there are also "keyhole" horizontal placements that are perhaps the most bombproof placements in the world, and they are much better with nuts, as such placements often flare towards the inside of the crack, and the constrictions and/or width of the keyhole may prevent a cam from even entering.
There are plenty of vertical placements that taper down in the Gunks; such cracks are not ideal for cam placements because the cam can walk up the taper and end up open.
One of the things I've noticed with some of the "cam first" climbers I've climbed with in the Gunks is that they'll place a small or even a micro cam in a horizontal when there is a far better nut placement available. I've seen this on the lead and also when building belay anchors. Yes, they are moving fast (not that it matters much in the Gunks) and cleaning their gear is efficient, but their protection/anchor system is inferior relative to what is actually available.
Cams can walk, and every now and then one that seems as if it ought to be good blows. Nuts can lift, and a string of nuts can zipper. Nothing is perfect. Unless I have very specific foreknowledge of a climb, I'll be carrying and placing both types of gear.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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When splitting wood, a mechanized wood splitter will beat a wedge and a maul every time when efficiency is the only criterion.
But, there is tremendous satisfaction in the art and the act of splitting wood by hand.
From getting from A to B a motorcycle is more efficient than a bicycle. But, walking might be the experience you're after.
Cams are like that. Really efficient for a lot of things and often they're the safest and fastest way to go. They can definitely tip the scales to success.
Often, not always - depends on the rock and conditions.
The arguments for passive pro are different. The experiential aspects come into play and it's only a compelling argument of you're into the subjective experience around it.
Think of cruising Positive Vibrations on The Incredible Hulk with the usual gear. Then think of cruising it with passive pro, a 2' swami, no helmet, and no chalk. They're different experiences. One isn't better than the other - just different. Go for what you want because the only reason to do it is to have fun and it doen't matter to the rock either way.
Solid passive pro always makes me feel best, but I sure like cams when the passive won't place.
And, if you like splitting wood - Gransfors Bruks axes are works of art!!
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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As much as I love cams having come up in the age of cams (started placing gear in '06), I can't ever imagine not racking a set of nuts and a set of micros. Even if I don't place them at all on a climb- having all that extra pro for so little weight is amazing. Especially with really long pitches, and in rescue/bailing scenarios.
I would look at a cam only rack as silly, and I'm not even a salty dog like most of y'all.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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We're not talking about BITD. Just having a conversation about preferences. There's no wrong answer.
Would you rather have a cam in an iced up crack or a "tapped" in hex?
Would you rather bail off a spring thing or a stopper?
Carrying a biner or two of wired nuts weighs almost nothing and gives you a ton of options.
Last year did a thin 2 pitch C2/3 route that I've done over the years as practice. Took all the new spring things including micro offsets and was really surprised that they didn't make it easier from when I'd done it with hexes, stoppers, crack-n-ups, and hooks. There were a few spots where the old stuff was distinctly safer.
Seems like a lot of the time what we reason is reason is fashion...
Seems too that the answer to the question "which rack is the right rack is...depends on what you're climbing and want to get out of it and.....
....there's no right answer except the one that's right for you.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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But what about placing an RP where a cam will never fit? Sounds like the decision between nuts and cams is route context sensitive.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I used to say... 'I prefer a nut over a cam any day, all other things being equal'. I don't say that anymore. DMT
Interesting...
I always rack a fairly full set of nuts for most cragging. And, a set of cams too. For easier, longer alpine climbs, I probably cut then nuts back a bit, and, rack a small set of cams.
When I think back to the routes over the last year...and the pro I've placed, I find that I place more cams than nuts. Easier if moving quickly to pluck a cam than to have to worry about someone having to deploy a nut tool. Well set nuts can require a tap with a nut tool to unseat. Most cams I place seem easy to clean.
Active pro v passive. Hmmm.
Funny...I usually never would have passed up bomber nut placements, but, like you DMT, I find myself using cams more than nuts when I really think about it.
Maybe more specific to the rock type one climbs...
Sometimes when I pack up at the end of the day, and, my partner gives me back the pro I've placed, I just toss the whole mess in my pack to deal with at the front end of the next outing. When I re-rack, I can see what I used for pro on that previous pitch. When I think about it, its rare I see more or even equal amounts of nuts. Usually weighted heavily with cams.
Things that make you go...hmmm....
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