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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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The 1 in 20 you mention is the 95% reliable figure I referred to earlier.
I wish I could find the tests I think I remember on "setting" cams. Theoretically, if the friction mechanism is Amonton's law, then "setting" shouldn't make any difference. But this is also the case in which the jerk test is most predictive of resistance to fall impacts, and so it would still be valuable.
On the other hand, if the setting process can in any small way drive rugosities of the crack wall into the cam metal, or perhaps help to "seat" the cam face scorings in and around crack micro-features, then "setting" should have some effect on raising the extraction load. So either way, it seems that giving cam placements an enthusiastic tug is a good strategy, while being extra suspicious of placements in very smooth limestone, quartzite, and basalt.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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I never climbed with Mike McEwan, but have been told he climbed with 10 pieces and would climb to where he could place a bomber piece. McEwan for those who do not know was the best southern arizona free climber of the 70's. Look at Abracadaver's third pitch which he led onsite with 3 pieces on the FA.
I grew up with standard granite mountain rack with was 14 friends, stoppers, and brass nuts-too much.
All cams would be great if you climbed something that could accept them, you would not get very far with the old version of Two For A Peso or Steppin In The Slide Zone on mount lemmon.
Moving fast (not one of my strong suits in old age) is key. Confidence is another.
9 nuts, 7 cams to #3 camalot would cover many things and be light enough to work with. The small cams blow (literally).
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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then again, they insist on using the term "alpine" to describe climbs in the Sierra.
Nice try, but not even one nibble!
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Ryan L
climber
PORT MOODY
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Well that's a bit scary, I led that one last summer in almost the same fashion. All three pieces that I had placed at the crux I considered them to be "bomber" (see picture below).
It looks like he placed a Metolious Ultralight Red and Orange which have a range of 24-34mm and 19-27mm. If I remember correctly I placed a BD #1 or #2 Camalot which have range of 30-52mm and 37-65mm. Perhaps the cams were to small and when he fell they moved into a wider section of the crack?
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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It all depends on the situation--I go nuts if its obvious and angling down. What I like with cams is they have a size range. Covers for me when I choose poorly.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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I like a set of stoppers, RPs if really thin, to complement the cams. Haven't used hexes in a long time, though I liked them when had the early Friends (rigid shaft).
Maybe it's the learning curve placing nuts so they can be removed handily and tricks of removal that put sport climbers off nuts. I like having the extra options when I have both on the rack. To each their own.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Red hex, every time- BAM!
Exactly Snowhaze,
I've been climbing 2 1/2 years and it's taking a little time to settle on pro beyond cams.
At this point I can't imagine climbing without my small concoction of nuts, RP's and a couple of key hex sizes.
Especially when the beta goes something like this- "a rack of singles should get you through".
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2016 - 04:08pm PT
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...has resulted in folks no longer extending their pieces properly...
Again, craft...
* stancing / extinct
* nutcraft / dying
* slinging / on the way out the door
* belaying / frightening
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2016 - 12:20am PT
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then again, they insist on using the term "alpine" to describe climbs in the Sierra.
Nice try, but not even one nibble!
I guess 'minutiae' is a matter of perspective. Being more Edisonian, I've never cared a wit about the the technical side of gear - the math or even engineering - it's always been a gut feel and intuition when I have it in my hand. I similarly never cared about fall factors, etc. as that stuff has also always seemed intuitive and common sense.
The 'minutiae' I do care about is summed up in that word I keep using: 'craft' and that basically has always come down to not wanting to die on FAs, some of them with scant or marginal pro. And let me qualify that by saying I've never been as bold as my old partner Tangen-Foster who never saw a runout he didn't prefer to f*#king around with fiddly placements. I tend to over-think, but so long as I have something in I can feel reasonable about I'm good to go. That difference / dependency combined with the fact I LOVE placing pro (of all kinds) and especially love the challenge of figuring out reasonable placements (if marginal) where none seem available at first glance.
The craft comes in relative to: can you see it, can you create something with whatever you have, can you do it fast, will it still clean easy after a fall, and can your second clean all your placements fast.
As I said, I get the high-end crack-a-go-go cam deal - bummer you have to f*#k around with any pro at all, so might as well go with the least annoying of something that's already an annoying imposition and flow impediment.
But like anything else where the pinnacle isn't the norm, you Donini, aren't the local kid at crag anywhere with no mentor attempting to navigate the cross-over to trad with equally inexperience friends, hearsay and the internet. For that matter, when was the last time you actually fell on a cam? Or fell at all? My possibly naive perception is you have a remarkably high yardage / fall ratio such that, hey, occasional good enough cams are just that, good enough (not that you don't place good pro). How often do you double up cams? I suspect not all that often and that you probably go lighter than most folks as well.
Kudos, but my comments are again aimed more broadly across all crags and rock types and addressing what I see as a general trend over time which - along with other factors - basically ends up with a lot of sketch behavior in general where even cam placements you'd think are obvious are often sketch and lacking much critical thinking.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Mar 10, 2016 - 03:24am PT
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This thread ended up being kind of interesting
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Mar 10, 2016 - 09:24am PT
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I do think your comments about craft have been quite insightful, Healyje.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Mar 10, 2016 - 09:53am PT
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Belaying for sure has taken a massive nose dive.
KISS has gone out the window. I see more and more massively complicated arrangements so people can use an autoblock device way back at the anchor while they are 10-20' away peering over the edge instead of just belaying their damn partner. Lots of extra complication and time added by obviously marginal leaders so they can bring up 2 followers at once, rather than just bringing them up one at a time.
Got to see a dude ask his partner if he was good just under the roof of Sexy Grandma, and proceeded to completely let go of the rope/ATC to futz with his hat. Why not lower? Why not tie a knot? Why not just sack up and deal with your mop later?
End rant.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 10, 2016 - 10:23am PT
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It's 2016, things change, lot of rust showing on this thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2016 - 11:10am PT
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Rust never sleeps...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 10, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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But sure, dudes back when were way smarter and had huge sack. That was the point of the thread right?
I don't view this thread in that light. The OP expressed the opinion that a leader should look for a nut placement before looking for a cam placement because the nut placement is more reliable (at least as the discussion evolved). I read nothing in the original post about moral, ethical or "sackness" superiority of previous climbers. When several disagreed with his contention that the leader should place a nut in preference to a cam, he then expressed his concern that the preference for cams represents, at least in part, a lack of development of nutcraft.
While no one can seriously argue that nutcraft was more important before the propagation of cams (but after nuts' replacement of pitons), I think this thread's discussions have brought forth some serious discussion about the relative merits of nuts and cams and, however indirectly, raised the issue of whether the effort needed to reach the general level of nutcraft that existed pre-cams is worth the effort.
The conclusion I draw from the ca. 110 posts on this thread is that individual preference and skill matters more than a dogmatic rule. Place what you know how to place and remove most quickly and reliably - not what someone else tells you to place. Since I "grew up climbing" with pitons, then had to learn nutcraft, I'm sure I, and my long-time climbing partner, carry and place more nuts than someone who grew up post-cams. When I climb with my daughters or son-in-law, I place and carry more cams because they have an easier time placing and removing them.
John
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Marcus McCoy from the city
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Mar 10, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
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I am a youngish ( grand scheme of things )trad climber who started with lots of gym climbing. While I do most often prefer to place a cam for the speed and efficiency of them ( I sling basically everything, after fortunately never having to learn the hard way ); however, I basically always have some nuts along as well simply for the ability to place them solidly in places a cam wont work. Granted, this is my general thought pattern, but have climbed with others racks before who simply dont bring any nuts. Not that it was a problem, rock type/route depending. I guess I just like to be prepared and I dont feel like a handfull of nuts weighs all that much or takes up too much room on the harness. General rules mind you, and specific rock types/routes could be exceptons I suppose...
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JLundeen
climber
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:08pm PT
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I just did a few pitches with a buddy on an entirely passive rack this week. It was awesome cleaning some well placed passive pro and made the route a lot more fun. That said, I almost always choose a cam over a nut on lead. When I am placing a nut, it's usually a route that I'm projecting and I have a single nut on a QuickDraw ready to go. On a project I don't really care if it takes longer to clean the pitch.
In another note, does anyone carry nuts that aren't offset anymore? I don't, can't think of a time ever where a normal nut would work better than a dozen offset/ peenut or offset brass
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
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tcu's are hopeless. I bought 3 of them for $10 each off some guy and thought it was a good deal. It wasn't. You need 4 cams for stability, not 3, and the ridges on the cams do make a difference.
I would trust them a lot more than lowe balls though. When I used lowe balls on aid, a lot of the placements that looked ok would come right out under body weight. I would never put them on my rack after that although for some reason I trust the hb brass micronuts.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 10, 2016 - 08:17pm PT
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[quote]tcus are hopeless[/e
Nonsense. but there is a learning curve. Ballnuts too..
Ive never had a tcu pop, since my first set of wired bliss, when they first came out '86 (?) paradise forks, later on all types of granite, Wingate sandstone, etc.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
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If you are high off the ground on Granite lacking ledges and as long as you are not badly run out, a five percent chance for cam failure may be acceptable. But are you as happy with 95% reliability when the consequences for failure are not acceptable? I am suggesting people look over their system and the ground ahead, and ask a question when placing a cam. Am I happy with a 5% chance of failure------here?
If the answer is "No", one has immediately to look for a hedge. Just as one does when a nut looks sketchy.
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