Discussion Topic |
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 4, 2016 - 11:36am PT
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The fet brought this up on the 'best pro ever' thread. In his post he said:
After watching the current generation of top climbers mostly climb with nothing but cams I moved the nuts off my base rack.
I've personally watched this trend among sport crossovers over the past fifteen years with a pretty jaundiced eye if not a small amount of horror. Me? Man, if it comes down to a cam or a nut in a given placement it's going to be a nut every time and I use cams where nuts won't work. I find the 'cams-first' or 'cams-only' thing completely ass-backwards and incredibly misguided.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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I suppose using a cam is the logical "go to" when someone who only knows sport climbing is confronted with a crack.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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BD C4 #0.4: 83g, 10 Kn, $65
DMM WallNut #7: 40g, 12 Kn, $9
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Lots of places a nut is fast to place in a good constriction. I always feel better having a solid nut than a similar sized cam below me.
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HandCrack
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal.
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I can't say how many times I've seen a cam that has walked up a crack in a perfect constriction for a nut to the point where it is tipped out flopping around in place. Nothing makes me feel more secure than a good solid stopper.
Locker - you got some guacamole to go with those chips?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Cost and weight factor aside(aka the Gunks).... I'm reaching for springy-things mostly these days. Although there are still many cases where only a wedge will do.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I have moved into the direction of cams over nuts in the past several years for a few reasons but I always cary a set of off set nuts. Cams are faster to place, usually. Cams are easier to remove, usually. Unless you are carrying a set of hexes cams are the go to piece for hand size and larger cracks. Nuts are great and I trust a well placed nut more than a similar sized cam but I have found that when i climb with people who insist on using nuts they really yank on them to make sure they set and when the follower comes along and tries to clean it he spends a load of time trying to free the welded nut. I really get annoyed pissing time away trying to clean a welded nut when a cam would have worked just fine, I get it, You know how to place nuts, thats great but for the sake of time and before that thunderhead rolls over can you please place some cams instead?
I learned to climb with nuts before camping devices were around, I know how to use them, I aid climb which has made me even better at using nuts, but for pure free climbing I learned to get over myself and the whole salty trad climber persona and learned to embrace cams for what they are, fast, efficiant and safe when placed well.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2016 - 12:33pm PT
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...and learned to embrace cams for what they are, fast, efficient and safe when placed well.
Glad you qualified that statement.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I remember my insecurity of going from pins/nuts to just nuts in the early 1970's, but that was a matter of ethics, so I did everything I could to eliminate pins from the rack. In contrast, I find the issue of nuts/cams vs. just cams more a matter of flexibility.
I can usually find a faster placement with faster removal with a cam rather than a nut if the crack would accept either one. My main problem with an all cam rack, assuming the relevant cracks are wide enough, is that cams don't work well in placements where the crack widens as it rises, among others. I usually carry a few threadable Hexcentrics from about 3/4" to 1 1/2" with me, tied onto single-length runners. I realize the wired hexes don't allow you to do this, though.
I also find that nuts rack much more compactly than cams, so the nuts/cams rack seems less of an obstruction than a cams only one.
This is really just a long-winded way of saying that I seldom rack up with only cams, because I want to preserve my ability to place either a nut or cam, depending on which better fits my intended placement (sorry).
John
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I find a solid nut placement the most confidence inspiring pro there is, and think "I could hang a truck off of that" but really the advantage of cams is speed. It's generally quicker to place and clean a cam than a nut. If a climber is going up a 5.13 crack they don't want to stop and fiddle with a nut. They want to plug and go with a cam. And a cam generally fits more placements than a nut. So you take less time scouting the perfect placement or grabbing one of three cams that may fit in a stretch of rock, instead of having to find the one nut that will work in that one constriction.
I'll also add that it took a long time for me to eliminate the set of nuts from my rack. The first time for just one climb it probably went off on on three times before I left it on the ground. It took a few years before it was off more than its on. For lots of reasons mentioned above it's hard to leave the nuts. Compact, light, solid, works better than cams in many placements, and I'll always still take them if there's any chance I'll need to bail because cams are so expensive. But you can teach an old dog new tricks, and the speed and ease of cams makes them the go to pro for many.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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And "well placed" applies equally to cams and nuts.... I've cleaned and placed many horrible examples of both.
The thought that every nut placement is bomber is just silly.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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It also depends where you climb. The parallel sided cracks of Yosemite or the horizontal ones of the Gunks call for cams (or Tricams in the Gunks ). While the dike constricted cracks of lovers leap often love nuts.
I'll also add it wasn't watching sportos who didn't know how to use nuts that changed my thinking, it was watching some of the best climbers in the world doing cutting edge climbs.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
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The thought that every nut placement is bomber is just silly.
It isn't a matter of "every nut placement is bomber", it's a matter of given a good nut or a cam at any given location I'm going with the nut every time unless there's some extenuating circumstances.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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I've personally watched this trend among sport crossovers over the past fifteen years with a pretty jaundiced eye if not a small amount of horror. Me? Man, if it comes down to a cam or a nut in a given placement it's going to be a nut every time and I use cams where nuts won't work. I find the 'cams-first' or 'cams-only' thing completely ass-backwards and incredibly misguided.
I think the trend is fairly understandable, though. A nut today is pretty much the same as a nut from 30 years ago. Cams, on the other hand, have become lighter, stronger, more flexible and more utilitarian. I think for a new leader, they are also easier to place correctly.
Curt
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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There are pitches in the Gunks that I've led without placing a single cam, and others without placing a single nut.
Cams are of course the only game in town in many horizontals, but there are also "keyhole" horizontal placements that are perhaps the most bombproof placements in the world, and they are much better with nuts, as such placements often flare towards the inside of the crack, and the constrictions and/or width of the keyhole may prevent a cam from even entering.
There are plenty of vertical placements that taper down in the Gunks; such cracks are not ideal for cam placements because the cam can walk up the taper and end up open.
One of the things I've noticed with some of the "cam first" climbers I've climbed with in the Gunks is that they'll place a small or even a micro cam in a horizontal when there is a far better nut placement available. I've seen this on the lead and also when building belay anchors. Yes, they are moving fast (not that it matters much in the Gunks) and cleaning their gear is efficient, but their protection/anchor system is inferior relative to what is actually available.
Cams can walk, and every now and then one that seems as if it ought to be good blows. Nuts can lift, and a string of nuts can zipper. Nothing is perfect. Unless I have very specific foreknowledge of a climb, I'll be carrying and placing both types of gear.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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When splitting wood, a mechanized wood splitter will beat a wedge and a maul every time when efficiency is the only criterion.
But, there is tremendous satisfaction in the art and the act of splitting wood by hand.
From getting from A to B a motorcycle is more efficient than a bicycle. But, walking might be the experience you're after.
Cams are like that. Really efficient for a lot of things and often they're the safest and fastest way to go. They can definitely tip the scales to success.
Often, not always - depends on the rock and conditions.
The arguments for passive pro are different. The experiential aspects come into play and it's only a compelling argument of you're into the subjective experience around it.
Think of cruising Positive Vibrations on The Incredible Hulk with the usual gear. Then think of cruising it with passive pro, a 2' swami, no helmet, and no chalk. They're different experiences. One isn't better than the other - just different. Go for what you want because the only reason to do it is to have fun and it doen't matter to the rock either way.
Solid passive pro always makes me feel best, but I sure like cams when the passive won't place.
And, if you like splitting wood - Gransfors Bruks axes are works of art!!
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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As much as I love cams having come up in the age of cams (started placing gear in '06), I can't ever imagine not racking a set of nuts and a set of micros. Even if I don't place them at all on a climb- having all that extra pro for so little weight is amazing. Especially with really long pitches, and in rescue/bailing scenarios.
I would look at a cam only rack as silly, and I'm not even a salty dog like most of y'all.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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We're not talking about BITD. Just having a conversation about preferences. There's no wrong answer.
Would you rather have a cam in an iced up crack or a "tapped" in hex?
Would you rather bail off a spring thing or a stopper?
Carrying a biner or two of wired nuts weighs almost nothing and gives you a ton of options.
Last year did a thin 2 pitch C2/3 route that I've done over the years as practice. Took all the new spring things including micro offsets and was really surprised that they didn't make it easier from when I'd done it with hexes, stoppers, crack-n-ups, and hooks. There were a few spots where the old stuff was distinctly safer.
Seems like a lot of the time what we reason is reason is fashion...
Seems too that the answer to the question "which rack is the right rack is...depends on what you're climbing and want to get out of it and.....
....there's no right answer except the one that's right for you.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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But what about placing an RP where a cam will never fit? Sounds like the decision between nuts and cams is route context sensitive.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I used to say... 'I prefer a nut over a cam any day, all other things being equal'. I don't say that anymore. DMT
Interesting...
I always rack a fairly full set of nuts for most cragging. And, a set of cams too. For easier, longer alpine climbs, I probably cut then nuts back a bit, and, rack a small set of cams.
When I think back to the routes over the last year...and the pro I've placed, I find that I place more cams than nuts. Easier if moving quickly to pluck a cam than to have to worry about someone having to deploy a nut tool. Well set nuts can require a tap with a nut tool to unseat. Most cams I place seem easy to clean.
Active pro v passive. Hmmm.
Funny...I usually never would have passed up bomber nut placements, but, like you DMT, I find myself using cams more than nuts when I really think about it.
Maybe more specific to the rock type one climbs...
Sometimes when I pack up at the end of the day, and, my partner gives me back the pro I've placed, I just toss the whole mess in my pack to deal with at the front end of the next outing. When I re-rack, I can see what I used for pro on that previous pitch. When I think about it, its rare I see more or even equal amounts of nuts. Usually weighted heavily with cams.
Things that make you go...hmmm....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I started climbing before nuts, I remember vividly having second thoughts about trusting something I didn't wail on with a hammer.
But it made me look closer at the actual placements. I also grew to love not being attached to a hammer. In the nuts only era I learned a lot working with original, symmetrical hexes and then appreciated the asymmetry of the later, tapered and asymmetric hexcentrics. Titons, cam locks and large tricams set me thinking more about angular cramming beyond just slotting. I went through the same thing with the ever changing lineage of wired nuts, and their various shapes and curves. But that nuts only phase taught me more about placements than I've learned before or since.
I resisted friends when they first came out; too expensive to have a comprehensive set, and I didn't like that they could move in what I knew to be bombproof nut placements.
Then came long cracks in the valley, Devils Tower and especially Indian Creek. The advantages of fast placing cams were obvious. I had hexes on my rack the first time I lead supercrack, but never after that.
These days I live in Moab and summer in Vedauwoo. I can go months / hundreds of pitches without placing a nut. I rarely carry them in the sandstone desert unless I have beta otherwise
But, I always carry them in Vedauwoo and pretty much any granite/ igneous crag.
I think the thing is to use the best tool for the job, and that varies with the media. But these days I lean more toward cams. I used to own over a hundred nuts and a handful of cams. After a couple of major robberies, I lost most of them. I've replaced them as needed, but these days I have a couple sets of wires and over a hundred camming devices.
But it would be too limiting to move exclusively to cams on all gear routes.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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First time I climbed with someone bringing only cams (no stoppers at all on his rack), he was a really strong climber and it boggled my mind he'd lead hard thin cracks with no small stoppers. But he lead quick, no futzing around with wires!
Well-placed cams are typically quicker for a follower to clean, and I've moved to avoiding stoppers to save time cleaning. Also now I'm typically clipping large stoppers on the back of the harness - or sometimes not bringing them at all (gasp!). Micro stoppers and small stoppers always come. I've also cut way back on bringing larger cams, I'll double up small/medium stuff but typically only bring a single #1,2,3 camalot for "bigger" stuff…or even ditch the 3.
Really depends on the rock.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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It all depends on where you are. INMOP the only thing that will have a real chance in an iced up crack is a pin that's hammered in hard enough to break out all the ice.
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cotuclimber
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Depends on the objective. If you are going to Indian creek and are staying away from difficult cracks where small nuts can protect your ass, you may not need any. When on a long climb or a bigwall, usually nuts help a lot, unless you are on some climb like the serenity sons or the Rostrum, where you can plug in cams at will and get by without quadriple set of smaller cams. Depends on the skill level and personal preferance. Nuts have their place. When I don't need them on a climb, I bring them as leaver gear in case of an emergency.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I don't think anyone is going to head out and do any serious aiding and leave their nuts at home, I bring multiple sets of brass off sets on a wall. I think the original post is talking more about a day of cragging or a day in the mountains. I spent the day climbing cracks in Joshua Tree yesterday and never placed a nut, I racked a set of HB off sets but they stayed on the back of my harness all day. It was easier and faster to plug in a cam. I could have fiddled around getting a nut placement but what's the point?
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Just got back from J Tree. Love those medium to big nuts!
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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The move from nuts/cams to just cams doesn't make sense for lots of routes.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I recall in the late 60's when people started to use nuts more, but were still using pitons, there was a nice pin called a "long dong" to help in removing the nuts. At that time, we mostly still carried a hammer, so you could reach in and gently tap the nut by placing the sharp end of the long dong next to the nut, and tapping to get it loose, if it was a really solid placement, and the leader yanked hard on it. Of course, any long piece of metal, even a 6-8 inch piece of rebar would do.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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That's called a nut tool.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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In general, I place a lot more cams than nuts these days. I'm mostly doing long easy routes, and I carry the nuts because, frankly, on that kind of route the weight of a set of nuts is trivial and it's nice to have them when you want them. Recently I did a long pitch, about 180 feet, and almost every placement was a bomber nut.
It depends so much on your philosophy of gearing a pitch. Just carrying cams changes your options but if that works for you, great.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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I would look at a cam only rack as silly
That was my thought as well. With the obvious exception of climbs/pitches where the climber knows the gear they need, why would you do this?
I cannot think of a single place I ever climbed where I would start hiking from base camp and leave the nuts (several sets) behind.
Why would someone do this?
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couchmaster
climber
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Cams are much faster. Cleaning, in particular. For long routes, my view is to leave hexes and nuts home unless you have specific beta otherwise. Even 20 min can make the difference between hiking down something like North Dome gully in the dark or getting down safely still having sunlight and having a beer at the campfire. Easy choice for those routes. For other, shorter routes, nuts can be so sweet. I still carry hexes on occasion as well, some cracks at Smith in particular:-)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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^^^^Yeah. Cracks me up when I'm climbing with someone who likes to do that. Was climbing with a boating friend who is older (like me) but came to climbing in the last ten years. Was belaying below him and looking up and he has harness with 2 of those PAS systems running between his legs and clipped to the back of his harness, belay gloves, grigri, belay plate, chalk bag, a mountain of cams, a ton of nuts, a bunch of daisy chain runners, cordalettes, and quick draws and he is grunting and trying to get in a wide crack deep enough to get purchase.
Ended up wearing out and giving me the lead. I take about eight pieces on a shoulder sling hung on the outside, slither right in (as well as my relative fatness will let me) and foot stack jack up. When I look down the look on his face is sayin' "how did I make that so hard?"
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Good spotting beats a pad and you don't have to haul that sh#t around.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nothing beats a chick with a mattress strapped to her back though...
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Gotta give you that!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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My standard rack for non-specialized face climbing is one set of nuts (plus a binerfull of brassies) and doubles of cams up to green Camalot size, then singles to blue Camalot.
This is, in truth, a massive shift for me in the direction of cam use, since I climbed for quite a few years with a rack of just nuts, starting in 1967 when Dave Craft and I made the first all-nut ascent in the Gunks on Double Crack. This climb is even more susceptible to an all-nut ascent today with the enormous improvements in nuts since 1967, but I wonder how many modern leaders use mostly cams...
Although I now lug a bunch of cams, I still use the nuts I do carry more, often much more, than many of the younger climbers I climb with, and in many cases, as I argued earlier, I end up with a better protection system because of it.
But I use whatever the situation calls for, not what some pseudo-protection philosophy says. For one thing, thin cracks are more typically an occasion for aid on granite and sandstone, but are frequent features of face climbs and require small nuts for protection. So a cams-only approach would be a commitment to solo various cruxes and maybe the entire climb.
Cams can be generally faster to place and remove, and make an enormous difference on strenuous pitches because of the ease of placement. But they can get stuck too and/or or walk back in a crack, and in that case time lost is usually far more than what is required to free a nut, and their high price means the party is more likely to work on removal for a long time rather than abandoning the piece.
In my experience, stuck cams have contributed to benightment, and nuts never have, so the usually favorable trade-off for speed sometimes has a substantial downside.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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It is nice to know that piece that's stuck or you're leaving to bail or rap from is only gonna cost you ten bucks!
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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I like a bunch of nuts... 15 or so minimum, I'd bring 40 if I could on long routes of nut size. Proficiently nuts take no longer to place than cams.
Mostly economic and weight considerations for me...
Totally different for "working" or redpointing, where you pare it down.
Edit: but it does piss off some partners... nuts and cams both get stuck though
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Let's face it.....cams are faster. Nuts will always have their place and I carry a small selection on multi pitch clmbs but I opt for a cam over a nut in most cases.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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It's telling that some stuck in their ways climbers view people going out with cams only racks as misguided or the product of graduating from sport climbs and not knowing any better. When in reality some expert climbers who have tons of experience with all kinds of pro make a conscience decision to leave the nuts behind for many climbs because they have good reasons to do so. That mentality of I know best and other people must know less than me is a good recipe for stagnation.
People who are way better and more experienced than me would take my nuts off the rack or show up without any nuts that got me thinking maybe I don't need nuts on every climb.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Again, economics is one of my own considerations...
No feeling of betterment... maybe a little concern for safety or preparedness.
Just my preference, and my racking choice is easily swayed, with a healthy dose of looking up at what's above.
Cams are quicker to place, if you can't pick the right nut first try. Cleaning, definite win for cams.... except they don't self-clean the way nuts do!
Ha! Vv vv vv. I see what you are reading, but I mean grabbing a cam first vs. grabbing a nut first.... not giving up on a nut and trying a cam. I mean what I said, comma and all.... hmmm... not sure actually what you're reading, or how best to write what I mean...
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Cams are quicker to place if you can't pick the right nut first try
That statement is kinda backwards.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I couldn't imagine climbing with just cams. Nuts, hexes, tri-cams and cams all have a place on my rack and nothing gives me a warm fuzzy like a solidly slotted nut.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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I was a very early adopter of cams. I bought my first set of friends in the UK in what must have been 79. I had early rigid half size friend, wire bliss, some other early brands. By the time Aliens came out my rack was entirely cams with a small selection of six or so small wires (RP's) on my harness. I did get caught out a couple of times on Gritstone (London Wall) where the wavy nature of the cracks made cams not as optimal as chocks. I took a number of falls on cams, all types and can only remember one failing. I think that was because I may have stepped on it as I passed before I came off. Hard to say because I was pretty desperate at that point!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Haven't placed a hex in quite a few years. Sure they work but too many protection options leads to too large of a rack.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I doubt I've placed a hex this century. But I'm glad for the knowledge I gained placing them when they were the only game in town!
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I can't say I'd ever leave the ground for something hard (for me) without a set of tiny micronuts (that's what she said) and a lowe-ball or two. Even in the tiniest seams I can sometimes get a good stack of micros that just might hold a real fall. There are places that cams just can't go.
Right tool for the right job....
But mostly cams now that my beloved Alien clones are back.
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Highgloss
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Just bolt the cracks then you just need some quick draws.
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teejaybee
Sport climber
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Just bolt the cracks then you just need some quick draws.
But then do we want to use alpine draws or dogbones? Nylon or dynema?
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Highgloss
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Ohh shoot to many choices!
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jstan
climber
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When cams first came out, Jim refused to use them. Said you could not trust them. Now he uses nothing but. Bloody flip flopper.
I completely trust the three cams I have. In my closet they aren't going to cause any problem at all.
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Pewf
climber
Gunnison, CO
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I climbed a few days at Arapiles this winter--I'd rather go with no cams there than a scanty nut selection. Had to beef up my working set before going, because after a few seasons locally it had shrunk to a biner of brass and handful of miscellaneous things in bigger sizes.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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On two occasions I've held falls where red Camalots pulled right out of parallel basalt cracks, leaving nice skid tracks. Both times the leader was stopped by a nut. On one of those the leader, (now a productive trad climber and mountaineer in CO), ended up head-down 2-3 feet above the deck. Good thing he placed the stopper before the cam.
Cams are wonderful but as others here have said, different situations call for different pro.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I saw james Joyce step on a pin and call it free. Then he and Aldous dropped some 'cid and followed Timothy Leary up a new thin crack protected entirely with ball nuts. None of the three ever touched a piton again.
Fakt!
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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^ +1
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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BITD any respectable climber didn't have very many cams because he couldn't afford cams.
What I wanna know is how the modern generation of climber can afford this sh#t.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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What I wanna know is how the modern generation of climber can afford this sh#t.
Pro deals and cash strapped yuppies in over their heads.
Oh wait, that's how mymy generation gets by.....
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sDawg
climber
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Perhaps the OP has only climbed in one or two areas where the rock is all the same type, and perhaps they have never pushed their physical limits on a gear protected climb. Their experience is limited and they do not have the imagination to think of what climbers or circumstances that are different from what they've seen in the past might require. Blanket statements about gear requirements without mention of rock type, crack size, or most importantly the climber's goals are completely ass-backwards and incredibly misguided.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2016 - 02:34am PT
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Sorry to abandon ship on the thread, spent most the weekend in the ER and the bastards have a strict no supertopo policy.
I think the trend is fairly understandable, though. A nut today is pretty much the same as a nut from 30 years ago. Cams, on the other hand, have become lighter, stronger, more flexible and more utilitarian.
Having climbed with original friends on, I don't personally consider there to have been that great of an overall advancement in the general function, utility or holding power of cams except in small sizes and possibly Metolius Fat and Super Cams - lighter, stronger and more flexible, sure - but generally more size-for-size reliable in a given placement than the originals? Not any big leaps from my perspective.
I think for a new leader, they are also easier to place correctly.
Clearly and probably the real reason for the change - a deficit of craft.
I know some nutters who will carry 2 sets of full sized nuts and one set of micro, plus cams or even 2x cams, for like one pitch routes. WTF???
Again, a lack of craft. I see crowds of people take the same or more on our local five pitch 5.7 that I do with a set of HBs and doesn't require a cam anywhere.
Cams are much faster. Cleaning, in particular.
Again, a lack of craft from my perspective - know plenty of old guys who couldn't place/clean or just clean worth a damn. That's not you (knowing you, and the fact that you own triples of every nut and nut tool ever made). But if you or the person you're climbing with is setting nuts hard all over the place instead of using the geometry then, yeah, that would suck.
I still carry hexes on occasion as well, some cracks at Smith in particular:-)
Retired all my hexes in '93 along with the tricams with the exception of the wired #9 for a specific spot.
Let's face it.....cams are faster. Nuts will always have their place and I carry a small selection on multi pitch clmbs but I opt for a cam over a nut in most cases.
Yeah, sure if you're competent and I do get there's a rock-specific component to this and understand why you crack-fiends might swing that way. But I'm talking about in general and in places I know are uber nut friendly.
It's telling that some stuck in their ways climbers view people going out with cams only racks as misguided or the product of graduating from sport climbs and not knowing any better. When in reality some expert climbers who have tons of experience with all kinds of pro make a conscience decision to leave the nuts behind for many climbs because they have good reasons to do so. That mentality of I know best and other people must know less than me is a good recipe for stagnation.
Well, again, out the high end of crack climbing I get it. But for the general demographic nation-wide? Man something is seriously wrong. And I go out with lots of new climbers and it's frighten at time to see some of their bad cam right next to utterly bomb nut placements. It's as if they have no eye for passive pro at all.
Perhaps the OP has only climbed in one or two areas where the rock is all the same type, and perhaps they have never pushed their physical limits on a gear protected climb. Their experience is limited and they do not have the imagination to think of what climbers or circumstances that are different from what they've seen in the past might require.
Perhaps, not.
Blanket statements about gear requirements without mention of rock type, crack size, or most importantly the climber's goals are completely ass-backwards and incredibly misguided.
As I said, my comment was derived from observations on all kinds of rock in lots of different areas over the years. I'm saying it's by and large a general trend across all areas and rock types. And, yeah, I do think it's related to the cross-over from gyms and the fact kids end up just throwing themselves at rock with little guidance and little time to develop much in the way of craft. Works out if they're strong, but I can't tell you how many really sketch cam placements I've cleaned from young folks I've first gone out with. Not to mention how many multi-cam zips you see on forums.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Kitchensinkers.
<Raises hand>
I figure you never know what you're going to need to build an anchor once you top out, but sometimes it is ridiculous.
Somehow, for some reason, I went from placing mostly nuts to mostly cams. Quicker, I guess.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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This may be a dumb question but, Are there many people who have made this jump to all cams? At least in areas that take other sorts of pro?
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Mei
Trad climber
I'm back!
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I've found that usually if I had nuts on my rack, I didn't need them; and it's when I decided to leave them behind (or just forgot), I would be looking at a slot thinking I wish I had the nuts with me.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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spent most the weekend in the ER
Was that for you or keeping company with someone else? In any case, hope the situation has righted itself.
John
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jstan
climber
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Mar 8, 2016 - 09:54am PT
This may be a dumb question but, Are there many people who have made this jump to all cams? At least in areas that take other sorts of pro?
Yes.
In this thread we have a post showing cams as secure when the load is applied slowly, and two posts showing unreliable dynamic response. Probably a good idea to give each cam placement a dynamic test to discover its dynamic response. The devices are structurally complex so the forces on each of its components is not clear. That was my complaint back when I had any complaints.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Interesting point, jstan, and one I will take to heart. Interestingly, Stoppers held the only leader falls I took in the last three years so I haven't tested a cam placement under fire recently. That probably means nothing about the safety of cam placements, but speaks volumes about my need to improve my thin crack technique.
John
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Having climbed with original friends on, I don't personally consider there to have been that great of an overall advancement in the general function, utility or holding power of cams except in small sizes and possibly Metolius Fat and Super Cams - lighter, stronger and more flexible, sure - but generally more size-for-size reliable in a given placement than the originals? Not any big leaps from my perspective.
I didn't say anything about "holding power" in my comments that you quoted, but I think flexible stems, narrower head widths, etc. are fairly significant advancements over the original Friends--leading to much greater function and utility. I think people who place cams in horizontal cracks, pockets, etc. would generally agree.
Curt
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I didn't say anything about "holding power" in my comments that you quoted, but I think flexible stems, narrower head widths, etc. are fairly significant advancements over the original Friends--leading to much greater function and utility. I think people who place cams in horizontal cracks, pockets, etc. would generally agree.
As someone who's climbed at Courtright, in particular, I have to agree - and would therefore add pockets to horizontal cracks as an area where flexible stems really changed my use of cams. Being cheap, however, I haven't retired my rigid-stem Friends. I still use them on long aid routes.
John
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couchmaster
climber
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Sorry to abandon ship on the thread, spent most the weekend in the ER and the bastards have a strict no supertopo policy. After I got done laughing at your "strict no stupertopo" policy comment: hope you're OK. Assuming you were not someones designated driver as you would have been able to surf from the waiting room... usually.
Again, a lack of craft from my perspective - know plenty of old guys who couldn't place/clean or just clean worth a damn. That's not you (knowing you, and the fact that you own triples of every nut and nut tool ever made). Thanks, I still love nuts. I'm a good cleaner, better than placer as I still love to tug on them to set them. Last trip to Red Rocks I did Frogland with 2 new climbers (3 on a single rope as my son had forgotten to pack our second rope). About 1/2 way up we caught up with a couple of guys who had been belaying and were trying to get their belay nuts out so they could climb (they were a party of 3 on twins or doubles). They worked for quite a while, gave up and left. The dudes were only @ 10 feet up when I held up their stuck nut in triumph. As far as that goes (compliment heading back your way), you are the most conscientious leader I've ever climbed with concerning not oversetting nuts. Your placements are as skillfully placed to both hold a fall but not pull out as you climb past, as I've ever seen.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Bottom line....whatever suits you is the way to go. You should experiment with the options available to find out what suits you.
I've tried pretty much everything and am comfortable with the arsenal i now bring into action.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Probably a good idea to give each cam placement a dynamic test to discover its dynamic response. The devices are structurally complex so the forces on each of its components is not clear. That was my complaint back when I had any complaints.
Giving cams a jerk test for sure, especially in limestone, basalt, and slippery quartzite. Since the force exerted by the cams on the crack wall scales with the load to the cam, passing a jerk test should guarantee the cam will hold---as long as the mathematical model it is based on remains characteristic.
But that is a big "if." First of all, cam design is based on Amonton's (really Da Vinci's) law for friction, which isn't a "law" at all but is rather an empirical observation that is sometimes appropriate but is also known to break down in all kinds of circumstances.
Even forgetting about the fact that the characterization of friction that goes into the design of cams may well be wrong for the metal/rock interface, the potential for various types of lubrication (water and dirt in the crack, surface coating of the crack walls, crumbling of the cam/crack interface under pressure), and deformation of the cams under load so that the designing equations no longer apply, not to mention the complicated dynamics that arise from often-inevitable cam motions, it is hard to feel certain that any of the theoretical considerations that support cam effectiveness will be fully in play when the cam holds a fall.
In other words, it is sort of a miracle that cams are 95% reliable (to use the figure once promulgated by the Metolius designer).
Returning to the jerk test that is in theory if not in practice conclusive, it has also been found (sorry, I can't locate the reference) that jerking on cams appears to "set" them and so increase their holding power. So even if you are a zen master like Joe at slotting nuts without setting them, you'd still be well-advised to give your cam placements a good solid tug if your position allows for it.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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jerking on cams appears to "set" them and so increase their holding power
WTF is "holding power"?
I hate this term being thrown around like it means something. It is Metolius marketing drivel. Cam angle and coefficient of friction matter. Metolius chose a harder alloy with a smaller cam angle, big whoop. "Holding power" is effing unitless, and meaningless.
End rant.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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WTF is "holding power"?
OK, I'll define it for you: the ability to hold a fall as opposed to pulling out of the placement.
Curt
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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People here love to get engrossed in minutae....then again, they insist on using the term "alpine" to describe climbs in the Sierra.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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I would use nuts for small placements and cams for big placements. I would never go out onto a blank face without RPs, although I realize they probably won't work. Or the totally imaginary protection offered by slider nuts. Still, you want to be able to look down and imagine that the gear is going to hold ...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Do you really, literally, always take Slider nuts every time you lead a face climb?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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WTF is "holding power"?
I hate this term being thrown around like it means something. It is Metolius marketing drivel. Cam angle and coefficient of friction matter. Metolius chose a harder alloy with a smaller cam angle, big whoop. "Holding power" is effing unitless, and meaningless.
End rant.
What Metolius means by "holding power" is that the smaller cam angle (which you just said matters and then tarred with a big whoop) results in greater outward force on the crack walls for the same load, and so requires higher extraction loads. "Holding power" is a descriptive abbreviation of this more involved statement, rather than a physical measurement, and so is not obligated to have units. That said, there are plenty of unitless constants that are meaningful (eg fall factor), so being unitless does not, by itself, imply a lack of meaning.
But I digress. What I meant is that in the tests, cams that had been set with a jerk required, on average, higher forces to extract them. In that sense, the "setting" process led to greatwer holding power. My apologies for the lack of precision.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2016 - 10:47pm PT
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As I recall Doug Phillips of Metolius once said 1 in 20 perfect-looking cam placements in parralleI-sided cracks failed in their testing.
And while I think the idea of 'setting' cams is an intuitively one, and one I've always ascribed to, after a previous discussion about it on cc.com back in 2010 I called Metolius and this was what I posted up back then:
Just got off the phone with Metolius. They don't commit to a numerical percentage of cams pulling in parallel-sided placements other than to say that if the placement is a decking one then you can't rely 100% on such placements no matter how good they look - you should always back them up.
They are definitely of the mind there is no 'setting' of cams - you set nuts, not cams.
For myself, I've never totally trusted parallel-side cam placements and all of the above simply confirmed what I've always felt about them and why I've always strived to imbue my cam placements with as many nut-like constriction attributes as possible, however subtle.
Couch, back at you on the gear and placements.
PS The ambulance ride from a date night out at Ciao Vito and overnight ER visit was mine - apparently a sleeper pneumonia I was totally unaware of caught up with me and I passed in a messy way over hors d'oeuvre and wine just as the meal was about to be served.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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The 1 in 20 you mention is the 95% reliable figure I referred to earlier.
I wish I could find the tests I think I remember on "setting" cams. Theoretically, if the friction mechanism is Amonton's law, then "setting" shouldn't make any difference. But this is also the case in which the jerk test is most predictive of resistance to fall impacts, and so it would still be valuable.
On the other hand, if the setting process can in any small way drive rugosities of the crack wall into the cam metal, or perhaps help to "seat" the cam face scorings in and around crack micro-features, then "setting" should have some effect on raising the extraction load. So either way, it seems that giving cam placements an enthusiastic tug is a good strategy, while being extra suspicious of placements in very smooth limestone, quartzite, and basalt.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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I never climbed with Mike McEwan, but have been told he climbed with 10 pieces and would climb to where he could place a bomber piece. McEwan for those who do not know was the best southern arizona free climber of the 70's. Look at Abracadaver's third pitch which he led onsite with 3 pieces on the FA.
I grew up with standard granite mountain rack with was 14 friends, stoppers, and brass nuts-too much.
All cams would be great if you climbed something that could accept them, you would not get very far with the old version of Two For A Peso or Steppin In The Slide Zone on mount lemmon.
Moving fast (not one of my strong suits in old age) is key. Confidence is another.
9 nuts, 7 cams to #3 camalot would cover many things and be light enough to work with. The small cams blow (literally).
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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then again, they insist on using the term "alpine" to describe climbs in the Sierra.
Nice try, but not even one nibble!
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Ryan L
climber
PORT MOODY
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Well that's a bit scary, I led that one last summer in almost the same fashion. All three pieces that I had placed at the crux I considered them to be "bomber" (see picture below).
It looks like he placed a Metolious Ultralight Red and Orange which have a range of 24-34mm and 19-27mm. If I remember correctly I placed a BD #1 or #2 Camalot which have range of 30-52mm and 37-65mm. Perhaps the cams were to small and when he fell they moved into a wider section of the crack?
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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It all depends on the situation--I go nuts if its obvious and angling down. What I like with cams is they have a size range. Covers for me when I choose poorly.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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I like a set of stoppers, RPs if really thin, to complement the cams. Haven't used hexes in a long time, though I liked them when had the early Friends (rigid shaft).
Maybe it's the learning curve placing nuts so they can be removed handily and tricks of removal that put sport climbers off nuts. I like having the extra options when I have both on the rack. To each their own.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Red hex, every time- BAM!
Exactly Snowhaze,
I've been climbing 2 1/2 years and it's taking a little time to settle on pro beyond cams.
At this point I can't imagine climbing without my small concoction of nuts, RP's and a couple of key hex sizes.
Especially when the beta goes something like this- "a rack of singles should get you through".
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2016 - 04:08pm PT
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...has resulted in folks no longer extending their pieces properly...
Again, craft...
* stancing / extinct
* nutcraft / dying
* slinging / on the way out the door
* belaying / frightening
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2016 - 12:20am PT
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then again, they insist on using the term "alpine" to describe climbs in the Sierra.
Nice try, but not even one nibble!
I guess 'minutiae' is a matter of perspective. Being more Edisonian, I've never cared a wit about the the technical side of gear - the math or even engineering - it's always been a gut feel and intuition when I have it in my hand. I similarly never cared about fall factors, etc. as that stuff has also always seemed intuitive and common sense.
The 'minutiae' I do care about is summed up in that word I keep using: 'craft' and that basically has always come down to not wanting to die on FAs, some of them with scant or marginal pro. And let me qualify that by saying I've never been as bold as my old partner Tangen-Foster who never saw a runout he didn't prefer to f*#king around with fiddly placements. I tend to over-think, but so long as I have something in I can feel reasonable about I'm good to go. That difference / dependency combined with the fact I LOVE placing pro (of all kinds) and especially love the challenge of figuring out reasonable placements (if marginal) where none seem available at first glance.
The craft comes in relative to: can you see it, can you create something with whatever you have, can you do it fast, will it still clean easy after a fall, and can your second clean all your placements fast.
As I said, I get the high-end crack-a-go-go cam deal - bummer you have to f*#k around with any pro at all, so might as well go with the least annoying of something that's already an annoying imposition and flow impediment.
But like anything else where the pinnacle isn't the norm, you Donini, aren't the local kid at crag anywhere with no mentor attempting to navigate the cross-over to trad with equally inexperience friends, hearsay and the internet. For that matter, when was the last time you actually fell on a cam? Or fell at all? My possibly naive perception is you have a remarkably high yardage / fall ratio such that, hey, occasional good enough cams are just that, good enough (not that you don't place good pro). How often do you double up cams? I suspect not all that often and that you probably go lighter than most folks as well.
Kudos, but my comments are again aimed more broadly across all crags and rock types and addressing what I see as a general trend over time which - along with other factors - basically ends up with a lot of sketch behavior in general where even cam placements you'd think are obvious are often sketch and lacking much critical thinking.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Mar 10, 2016 - 03:24am PT
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This thread ended up being kind of interesting
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Mar 10, 2016 - 09:24am PT
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I do think your comments about craft have been quite insightful, Healyje.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Mar 10, 2016 - 09:53am PT
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Belaying for sure has taken a massive nose dive.
KISS has gone out the window. I see more and more massively complicated arrangements so people can use an autoblock device way back at the anchor while they are 10-20' away peering over the edge instead of just belaying their damn partner. Lots of extra complication and time added by obviously marginal leaders so they can bring up 2 followers at once, rather than just bringing them up one at a time.
Got to see a dude ask his partner if he was good just under the roof of Sexy Grandma, and proceeded to completely let go of the rope/ATC to futz with his hat. Why not lower? Why not tie a knot? Why not just sack up and deal with your mop later?
End rant.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 10, 2016 - 10:23am PT
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It's 2016, things change, lot of rust showing on this thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2016 - 11:10am PT
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Rust never sleeps...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 10, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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But sure, dudes back when were way smarter and had huge sack. That was the point of the thread right?
I don't view this thread in that light. The OP expressed the opinion that a leader should look for a nut placement before looking for a cam placement because the nut placement is more reliable (at least as the discussion evolved). I read nothing in the original post about moral, ethical or "sackness" superiority of previous climbers. When several disagreed with his contention that the leader should place a nut in preference to a cam, he then expressed his concern that the preference for cams represents, at least in part, a lack of development of nutcraft.
While no one can seriously argue that nutcraft was more important before the propagation of cams (but after nuts' replacement of pitons), I think this thread's discussions have brought forth some serious discussion about the relative merits of nuts and cams and, however indirectly, raised the issue of whether the effort needed to reach the general level of nutcraft that existed pre-cams is worth the effort.
The conclusion I draw from the ca. 110 posts on this thread is that individual preference and skill matters more than a dogmatic rule. Place what you know how to place and remove most quickly and reliably - not what someone else tells you to place. Since I "grew up climbing" with pitons, then had to learn nutcraft, I'm sure I, and my long-time climbing partner, carry and place more nuts than someone who grew up post-cams. When I climb with my daughters or son-in-law, I place and carry more cams because they have an easier time placing and removing them.
John
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Marcus McCoy from the city
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Mar 10, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
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I am a youngish ( grand scheme of things )trad climber who started with lots of gym climbing. While I do most often prefer to place a cam for the speed and efficiency of them ( I sling basically everything, after fortunately never having to learn the hard way ); however, I basically always have some nuts along as well simply for the ability to place them solidly in places a cam wont work. Granted, this is my general thought pattern, but have climbed with others racks before who simply dont bring any nuts. Not that it was a problem, rock type/route depending. I guess I just like to be prepared and I dont feel like a handfull of nuts weighs all that much or takes up too much room on the harness. General rules mind you, and specific rock types/routes could be exceptons I suppose...
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JLundeen
climber
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:08pm PT
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I just did a few pitches with a buddy on an entirely passive rack this week. It was awesome cleaning some well placed passive pro and made the route a lot more fun. That said, I almost always choose a cam over a nut on lead. When I am placing a nut, it's usually a route that I'm projecting and I have a single nut on a QuickDraw ready to go. On a project I don't really care if it takes longer to clean the pitch.
In another note, does anyone carry nuts that aren't offset anymore? I don't, can't think of a time ever where a normal nut would work better than a dozen offset/ peenut or offset brass
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
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tcu's are hopeless. I bought 3 of them for $10 each off some guy and thought it was a good deal. It wasn't. You need 4 cams for stability, not 3, and the ridges on the cams do make a difference.
I would trust them a lot more than lowe balls though. When I used lowe balls on aid, a lot of the placements that looked ok would come right out under body weight. I would never put them on my rack after that although for some reason I trust the hb brass micronuts.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 10, 2016 - 08:17pm PT
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[quote]tcus are hopeless[/e
Nonsense. but there is a learning curve. Ballnuts too..
Ive never had a tcu pop, since my first set of wired bliss, when they first came out '86 (?) paradise forks, later on all types of granite, Wingate sandstone, etc.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
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If you are high off the ground on Granite lacking ledges and as long as you are not badly run out, a five percent chance for cam failure may be acceptable. But are you as happy with 95% reliability when the consequences for failure are not acceptable? I am suggesting people look over their system and the ground ahead, and ask a question when placing a cam. Am I happy with a 5% chance of failure------here?
If the answer is "No", one has immediately to look for a hedge. Just as one does when a nut looks sketchy.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2016 - 04:22am PT
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It's 2016, things change, lot of rust showing on this thread.
Have few minutes to do more than quip. It is 2016, but "things" (rock, cams and nuts) don't change - people and their behavior change, and in this specific case I think to their individual and collective detriment.
Yet again, if you're talking just the province of crack climbing on splitters, sure, the idea and transition might seem natural. But the idea that a cam is always the solution and passive is passe in climbing across the board - mindlessly stupid, reckless for the average cross-over, and irresponsible if someone is encouraging it.
That people with advanced skillsets, a wealth of experience and a preference for climbing cracks would adopt the strategy is great, that you dismiss the criticism of the trend with a 'meh' seems a bit blind. When was the last time you climbed with a newish trad leader who wasn't already an incredibly strong and / or accomplished sport climber who can weather the transition on a combination of good and sketch cams with minimal risk?
I do all the time and it can be quite eye-opening with regard to the trend. So the idea that folks leaving the ground with just cams (which are seldom extended) is a net positive for climbing seems seems either detached or deluded.
But sure, dudes back when were way smarter and had huge sack. That was the point of the thread right?
Not sure how you managed to take that away from my original post, but that has nothing to do with it other than possibly a tenuous correlation to the fact the demographic long ago outstripped the "back when" mentoring system leaving most kids to wing the transition to trad climbing. Nothing 'smarter' about it or 'dumber' about the lack of a proper introduction to the appropriate use of pro.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 11, 2016 - 04:37am PT
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fuggit, I've been climbing forever (as long as many of you) so I can't tell you if Any thing was Store bought, booty that was 'new' got racked-up & put to good use, but I know how to use what ever I've got. including a hammer and nails , oops pins ya' all still remember the song; clear ring, not over driven...
As a ringtone for a phone ... that would be great
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2016 - 04:42am PT
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Gnome, man, using those "back when" original camalots is the essence of "huge sack". Had one disintegrate on me once in Edo back when and was glad to have it backed up with the small #2 titon that stopped me. Still gives me the willies just looking at them.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 11, 2016 - 04:47am PT
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Yeah, it isn't sack, its poor judgment,
(I know the limitations, & try to never fall, remember that?)
and every thing gets backed up , not always equalized, but Im not
winning any awards for the old ways. As has been said, To teach what we have learned would be good, if anyone wanted to learn it.
Oh and I often just leap frog anything bigger than the 4frnd, I have 2 green #5 camalots that are also skinny lobes, they scare me, alone or together, so I stay close to them. It is aid,
but I live to pick the scabs.
and often swear off the awful width,
that comes naturally to short folk
when it gets wide I crawl inside...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2016 - 12:34am PT
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I think the count gets reset every fall.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Apr 30, 2016 - 10:09am PT
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January 2016 issue Rock & Ice, P44 (yes I am behind in my reading)
See the picture of Leo Houlding on the first ascent of the 4000 foot route "Reflections", 5.12C, A3+ Mirror Wall Greenland. Nuts and cams on rack.
Great story BTW, much of the climbing very sketchy pro, or do-not-fall territory.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Apr 30, 2016 - 11:54am PT
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I haven't bought a lot of gear in a while. I don't drool over the glass case with the latest goodies.
There must be some really cool cams if they will fit in the same crack that takes these:
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 30, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
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Anyone who is arguing about whether to use cams or nuts, or tube chocks versus hammered 2x4 scraps, is SO last century.
Get with the program, or stop pretending to be current and trendy.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 30, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
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What is the "normal" way people learn to lead and place gear?
For me, I had a mentor that took me top-roping a few times, and I learn the basics of making a natural pro top-rope anchor. Then I read Freedom of the Hills and just went out there and tried it with a less experienced partner who thought I knew what I was doing.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 30, 2016 - 03:49pm PT
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My younger brother and I read Basic Rockcraft and Advanced Rockcraft by Royal Robbins.
The two local climbers were in high school, and we were not, so they dismissed us as unworthy of their mentorship.
We just went out and started climbing on our own. We were able to buy the super-expensive gear because we had flunky jobs in the tourism industry.
Later, I learned a great deal by climbing in Yosemite with more experienced climbers.
It doesn't matter if you can do it, or if you can't do it.
Just do it anyway.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Apr 30, 2016 - 05:52pm PT
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A wonderful way to get an eye an feel for placing gear is to go "gear placement bouldering" with an etrier. Place, clip, swing it around to see how stable it is, bounce on it - see what happens. You will have some surprises along the way and you will learn a ton. Learn how to remove efficiently. A quick and cheap education.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 30, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
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What is the "normal" way people learn to lead and place gear?
I guess the "normal" way was to try them out and hope you didn't die in the process.
When nuts first showed up in the US around 1967, no one who hadn't been to the UK had a clue. We sent away for a bunch o' nuts from Joe Brown's store and started using them, at first in combination with pitons, which were still thought to be essential, especially in the back country, as the range of available nuts wasn't close to adequate.
Still, we were placing nuts and falling on them (not a lot by modern standards) and generally learning from our mistakes. Nut placement is pretty intuitive after all.
As with pitons, Chouinard changed the game by making a full range of stoppers and hexes in standardized size graduations. Before that, both nuts and pitons were produced helter-skelter by different manufacturers with virtually no attention to size graduation, or shape uniformity, so all we had was a hodge-podge of idiosyncratic shapes of various sizes.
The availability of an intelligent range of standard sizes and shapes brought on the day when Steve Wunsch (and soon after Henry Barber and John Bragg) just upped and proclaimed they weren't going to be carrying hammers or pitons any more.
John Stannard, after noting the piton destruction of Serenity Crack, followed suit by doing climbs in the Gunks at the cutting edge of difficulty of the day entirely on nuts, using Chouinard's small wires with finesse and expertise that I don't think has ever been surpassed. Stannard achieved that level of finesse by doing something no one else I know has ever done. He placed gear, made his assessments about how good it was, and then dropped weights to see how reality corresponded to his judgements.
So I guess the short answer to the question is trial and error as opposed to authoritative instruction, but it helped that the old-fashioned principles of trad climbing were still in effect, so that people's leading ability was closely correlated with their climbing ability, both of these coming along in parallel as a climber progressed. Now we have lots of people who can climb big numbers in the gym or in sport climbing, but who are beginners when it comes to gear placement and anchor rigging, and they are quite naturally interested in and capable of climbing at a level way beyond their protection skills.
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